Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #346 | Why Australia Is Losing Bricklayers And Why More Apprentices Won’t Fix It | Andy Shaw

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The Daily Dose #346 | Why Australia Is Losing Bricklayers And Why More Apprentices Won’t Fix It | Andy Shaw · The Good Builder Podcast

• Aaron Ng (00:00) Now, before I get into it, a big shout out to the legends at my construct. If you're still managing your jobs, contracts, client comms across text messaging and spreadsheets, there is a better way. My construct is built by Australian builders for Australian builders. And it is the best platform out there as a construction software. Jake and the team are working on some really exciting stuff that we've got to have a sneak peek at. But go and check them out. is myconstruct.com. You can get a 30 day trial and the guys there are absolute legends and they're taking the Australian building industry by storm. So go and check out their platform. They are very, very cool. And thank you once again, MyConstruct for being the proud sponsors of this podcast. Az (00:59) good morning and welcome to the good builder podcast today we're talking about a trade that has helped Australia build for generations and actually my father in law is one of these tradies who just retired this year and I must say had a great reputation in the industry, and it's a it's a bloody hard job. Our guest today is Andy Shaw, founder of the Britties Network. Andy spent more than 35 years in construction. He started as an apprentice bricklayer, worked on the tools, built and ran his own bricklaying business for 15 years, and eventually grew that business to consistently achieve more than 20% net profit. Over the past five years, he's traveled across Australia looking closely at how brick-laying businesses actually operate, what the successful ones do, what others are doing, and what others are struggling with, and what needs to change in the trade if we're gonna have a sustainable future. you've probably heard a lot of us talk about the brickies in the industry or the lack of and what's coming through. And today is a very important. Important conversation. We've got an aging workforce, apprenticeship completions are down, compliance and employment costs are high, and businesses still need to make enough money to employ and develop the next generation of our brighes. And that's exactly why we got Andy on. If we don't get this right, I think we're in a little bit of trouble. So it is my absolute pleasure to welcome this legend to the Good Builder Couch, Andy Shaw. How are you, man? Andy Shaw (02:31) Hey, great. Thanks. I'm I'm fantastic, Aaron. Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited about the conversation today. Az (02:37) Yeah, mate. Well, as I said, it's it's it's one of the trades that's been in the media a lot lately, hasn't it, Andy? In terms of the shortages of them, you know, the the aging workforce in that particular trade and also, you know, the lack of people coming through. So it's it's critical. And as I said, my father in law is a Brickie in Bundaberg. He's now seventy years old. He actually just celebrated his seventieth over the weekend and we spent it with him here, but He's just got out of the industry and and he's of the same mindset that we we need more young fellows picking this up and ladies picking this up and we've seen some great ones out there. But mate, I'd like to first just sort of understand where did you well I gave you a bit of an intro, but where did you all start, Andy? How did you get into the industry, mate? Andy Shaw (03:21) Yeah, mate. So firstly, I just want to paint a little bit of a picture. When we talk about bricklaying, Az (03:25) Yeah. Andy Shaw (03:26) we talk about bricklaying as one big picture, but really there's the bricklaying industry, and then there's what the bricklayers deal with individually, as individual bricklayers and as business owners, and how that Az (03:41) Yeah. Andy Shaw (03:41) relates to the building industry. As the bricklaying industry. So there's some definitions there. So when I talk today, I'll switch in and out of that. Yeah. So Az (03:49) Yeah, I love it. Yep. Love it. Love it, Andy. Andy Shaw (03:53) if I give you a little bit of a background about myself, I started, Az (03:55) Yeah. Andy Shaw (03:56) I feel really blessed actually. I had a really good introduction to bricklaying, and and a lot of it was luck. But I started my apprenticeship at 14, and it was because I was a problem child at school. I didn't pay attention. Whether you want to say I had I was just a disruptive kid or I was had ADD or had a learning difficulty or whatever you want to call it, which is a lot of tradies can relate to. I was Az (04:19) Mm. Andy Shaw (04:19) really blessed that my parents recognized that leaving me at school wasn't going to probably give me a good outcome. I was probably starting to, you know, hang around with the wrong crowd, do a few of the wrong Az (04:31) Yeah. Andy Shaw (04:32) things. So my parents said, nah. Or my dad especially said, You've got to get out of school. And he Az (04:37) Yeah. Andy Shaw (04:37) pulled me out, but he No, you're not sitting at home. So I had to go and work with my dad for a little bit, but it was really on the premise that one of my dad's mates was a brickie and he was going to give me an apprenticeship. But when Az (04:48) Yeah, well. Andy Shaw (04:48) I left school, I didn't there was no work. It was the early nineties. We were in the recession we had to have. There wasn't much Az (04:54) Yeah. Andy Shaw (04:55) work coming up. So I ended up going to do a pre-apprentip school a pre-apprentipost. Course at our local TAFE, which was the Ballarat TAFE. So I'm from Victoria. So the Az (05:06) Yep, yeah. Andy Shaw (05:07) I think it was called the School of Mines, I think it was called back then. And the trade school was across the road from Selkirk's, which was the local brick factory. Az (05:14) Yeah, wow. Andy Shaw (05:15) Right? But when I say I'm really blessed, at that stage you weren't supposed to be able to leave school before a certain age, but I was younger than that. And You couldn't go into a TAFE course because I didn't meet the age criteria. I was 14, you had to be 15 and a half or something. And Az (05:30) Yeah. Andy Shaw (05:30) my dad lobbied the local the local federal member to say, he's Az (05:34) Where Andy Shaw (05:35) ready to go, you should be putting him in. So I was lucky, I was a young kid, got put into trade school to do what my Az (05:41) Wow. Andy Shaw (05:42) first year of TAFE was. So I got a really good introduction to bricklaying. I got a lot of technical knowledge and time on the tools before I ever went to a job site. Because what ended up happening is I ended up having there was no work for me at the end of my eight or ten week pre app. So I did the next year of trade school before I even started on the job. So I'd actually effectively done two years worth of trade school before I ever got on a building site. So Az (06:06) Yeah, well. Andy Shaw (06:07) so I had some I had some industry knowledge and the technical knowledge and information about what you needed to know, the details that you learn at trade school Az (06:15) Yeah. Andy Shaw (06:15) that before having stepped a foot on the job. So I kind of gave my my boss an advantage because he never had to Az (06:21) Yeah. Andy Shaw (06:21) pay me to go to trade school for the first two years. Saved him like sixteen weeks of of pay, technically. But Az (06:26) Wow. Yeah. Andy Shaw (06:28) then but then it was the recession. So I actually went through two different employers over five years before I ever finished my apprenticeship. Az (06:34) wow. Andy Shaw (06:35) Yeah, so and we'll talk a bit more about employment stuff later on, but and Az (06:39) Yeah. Andy Shaw (06:40) what happens to employees. But I was lucky, I found myself with a bricklayer named John Pryor in Ballarat, and he was a second generation bricklayer. I was working with his dad, John, his brother, and there was a team of about six of us and they really in they really embraced me and took me under my wing 'cause really by the time I started with them I was technically qualified. Az (07:02) Yeah, well. Andy Shaw (07:02) But I didn't really have good skills because I've been used as a laborer a lot. So they brought me up to speed and got me on the tools and really nurtured me. And it was and it was fantastic. And they supported me to go on and do work skills competitions and all those sorts of things. So so I feel like I had a really good entry to the industry. And then Az (07:20) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (07:22) learning from him, he was running a really good business. I was able to leave from him, start my own brick-laying business, but then Starting my own bricklaying business, didn't know it at the time, but it's like going back to being a first-year apprentice, but a business owner. And I didn't really Az (07:36) Yeah. Andy Shaw (07:36) know that. And what I really noticed about running my brick-laying business, I really didn't make any money for the first 10 years, Aaron. It was, Az (07:44) What? Andy Shaw (07:45) I was just doing the same as everyone else. And I realized after getting some good coaching and good mentorship later on from other business owners that Az (07:55) Mm. Andy Shaw (07:56) Bricklaying, especially as an industry, there's certain things that are baked into the industry that set you up to fail and will cause you a lot of pain. And I don't like seeing people in pain. I didn't like it being in pain myself as a business owner, whether it be Az (08:10) Yeah. Andy Shaw (08:11) financial, relationship stress, just hiring staff, finding work, all of these other things that you never taught about as a as a technician Az (08:18) Mm. Andy Shaw (08:18) or a bricklayer that The industry kind of sets you up to fail. Yeah, Az (08:22) Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Andy Shaw (08:25) so and that's what led me to really learning how to run a profitable business and whereabouts I focused my business in the industry because there's so many different types of areas within the industry and that you can work in. But once I worked out what my value to the market was. Then I just doubled down on that and I ended up having seven full time workers and another fifteen contractors at the time working for me. And it and I was really blessed. It was in a boom time. Like we never really suffered from being out work because Az (08:58) Yeah. Andy Shaw (08:59) we we had a lot of value to the market because we had a big team. Yeah. Az (09:02) Yeah, yeah. But I think the other thing, Andy, is although you you know, you you're in a boom time, we've seen a lot of businesses go down in the in boom times still because they either take on too much. I I I don't wanna you know, there's there's I won't name names, but there's been some big builders, for example, that went down over COVID when they had more work that they could poke a stick at. So I think it's really interesting. one of the things you said, which was around When I started my own business, I felt like I was a first year apprentice again. And you went back and you you you think about the business side. And I can I'll tell you what, you know, Andy and I haven't met prior to this podcast. We kind of know of each other and we've talked, but the pennies are dropping for me now, mate. And the other thing is that I I actually really love, sorry to cut you off because I know you've got a bit more of a story, but I really, really love, mate, that you you you are you've practiced what you preach. You've been through it all. You you've owned your own business, you've done it for thirty-five years, you've been in bricklaying, and now you're helping bricklayers. I think that's phenomenal, mate. You know, and it's it's a and as I said, my father-in-law's in it. It is one of the toughest games. I reckon it's the toughest trade out there. Andy Shaw (10:09) Yeah, yeah, which Az (10:10) Yeah. Andy Shaw (10:10) yeah, no, thank thanks for that, Aaron. I appreciate the support when you say that because Az (10:14) Yeah. Andy Shaw (10:15) it is tough running a business and it's tough going Az (10:17) Mm. Andy Shaw (10:17) through your apprenticeship and it is hard work. But but what what's even worse is that you just don't know what you don't know. And there's certain things in our industry which we'll talk about systematically Az (10:28) Okay. Andy Shaw (10:28) in a little bit that You can lose that first 10 years, which I did. I was lucky, picked it up in the next five or 10, and had a the 2000s were brilliant for me. 2010 onward, lot it was awesome. Like it was, Az (10:43) Love it. Andy Shaw (10:44) it was couldn't put a foot wrong. But the first 10 years before that, which were my prime working years as a bricklayer, from 25 to 35. They're your prime years as a bricklayer. You're physically fit, you're motivated, you're hungry. But Az (10:59) Mm. Andy Shaw (10:59) if you don't get ahead in those years and understand what your business model is, it really hurts. And that's what led me to when I sort of semi-retired in 2017, 2018. Az (11:13) Mm-hmm. Andy Shaw (11:14) Had done really well, ran a good bricklaying business, but was able to build houses every year personally. Which just set me up. I was able to use my own trade and brick houses to really Az (11:24) Where Andy Shaw (11:25) so I always had a residential project coming on. And and that's what led me to when I semi-retired, had a few years off, and then I thought, bricklayers need more help because nearly every bricklayer I'd speak to, they had $10 or $20 or $30,000 owing to the tax department. They felt like they were working for money that wasn't enough covering their costs, and it generally wasn't. And Az (11:46) Mm. Andy Shaw (11:47) It was all that's just the way it's always been. And Az (11:50) Mm. Andy Shaw (11:51) but I hadn't had that experience. Mine was really positive, but now we're getting further on, which we'll talk about the aging bricklayer rates. Az (11:59) Mm. Andy Shaw (12:00) This this is something that needs to be corrected really quickly. And that's what led me to want to start Brickies Network, which is a residential bricklayers association, because residential is where 85% of bricks are laid in Australia. And Az (12:14) Yeah. Andy Shaw (12:14) 65% of those bricks to 70% of those bricks that are laid are veneer face brickwork. They're not common brickwork, they're covered up. Az (12:21) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (12:23) Once they're laid, they're a finished product. And it takes five years to become a good technical tradesman. Az (12:31) Yeah. Andy Shaw (12:31) It's not something you can pick up in one year. So if we lose Az (12:34) Mm. Andy Shaw (12:35) guys out of the industry, we don't get them back. And Az (12:39) Wow. Andy Shaw (12:39) it takes a long time to teach them. Az (12:42) And so you're not getting that continuity, Andy, of of you know the quality of work because you know it does take that long. My father-in-law actually says the same thing. Like a a really good quality brickie, builders don't want to lose as well. So very in Andy Shaw (12:56) Exactly right. Yep. Az (12:59) yeah, really interesting, mate. Now this is really interesting to shine a line on it. Well, you know, you've been sorry, keep coming up. Andy Shaw (13:01) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so then, yeah, so so when that when I decided I was gonna start a bricklayers association, then Az (13:10) Mm. Andy Shaw (13:11) I thought, well, I can't just come from a bricklayers perspective, I've got to understand the big picture. So Az (13:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (13:16) I actually went back and worked for a friend who owned a building company that was building 250 homes a year. And I worked as Az (13:22) where? Andy Shaw (13:22) a building supervisor for him. Just so I could get a big picture to get a full understanding of what are the levers that get pulled in the back end from the building Az (13:30) More I could. Andy Shaw (13:31) company side that affect the bricklaying industry. Az (13:35) Love it. Andy Shaw (13:36) Yeah, so and I think most bricklayers don't generally understand they don't understand where they fit into the big picture of construction and where their value point comes within that residential building. process and Az (13:49) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (13:51) how the industry is very different to we're considered as just another trade in the in in the construction industry, but we're structured Az (13:59) Mm. Andy Shaw (14:00) very differently and Az (14:01) Okay. Andy Shaw (14:02) how the building industry pulls levers that actually affect us profit wise dramatically if we don't know that it's happening. Az (14:10) Yeah, wow. Interesting. Very, very cool, Andy. Well, mate, n now that you've been traveling around for the last five years, looking at bricklayers all over Australia, what do you what are you sort of seeing? And and and you talked a little bit about the age profile, which you're going to get into and and what happens if we lose, you know, a bit of a portion of bricklayers, but where do you sort of see what's happening out there and where do you sort of see us in the next ten years? Andy then, you Andy Shaw (14:35) Yeah. Az (14:36) know, considering what's going on. Andy Shaw (14:37) Yeah, mate, great question, Adam. So we all lay bricks. So this is from the bricklayer Az (14:42) Yeah. Andy Shaw (14:43) perspective. We all lay bricks. We basically do the same thing, but Az (14:47) Yeah. Andy Shaw (14:48) we work in different states, different regions, Az (14:52) Mm. Andy Shaw (14:53) and different like counties within those regions. And we don't talk to each other. We all we're all just busy head down, bum up, and that's how it works. in that sector. And I'll give I'll give you an example. So and a a lot of this comes down to price point within the market as well in those regions. So you would think if we're all laying bricks, we're all running a bricklaying business, pretty much wages are a federal thing, you know, s health and safety compliance is is a is a national thing. We we'd Az (15:26) Yeah. Andy Shaw (15:26) all be pretty much the same. And therefore to deliver bricklaying, you would think it would be around the same. Right. Az (15:33) Yep. Yeah. Andy Shaw (15:34) But that's very different. Victorian bricklayers on average earn thirty percent less than what bricklayers in Queensland earn per brick. Az (15:42) Yeah, wow. Why? Andy Shaw (15:43) But they do exactly the same thing. Different in New South Wales, different in WA and South Australia. So if I can give you a l and so this is where I realized after actually traveling around Australia. So when I was before I started Brickies Network, I Az (15:56) Mm. Andy Shaw (15:57) went traveling around Australia and I worked with over 25 different bricklaying businesses around Australia in every state Az (16:03) Yeah, well yeah. Andy Shaw (16:03) but WA. And all of them effectively did the same thing, but so different. And I'll give you a quick example. Az (16:10) Yeah. Andy Shaw (16:10) Bricklaying, I'll say if I say bricklaying is a trade, and I want explain this a little bit right off the start so listeners understand that bricklaying is very different to another trade within construction. When you're a bricklayer, 97% of your work is in new construction. Az (16:26) Yeah. Andy Shaw (16:27) That means if you've got if you're a single bricklayer working on their own, you might be able to do some B2C work. Be working for the end consumer, doing some fences, doing some slight renovation work, some patch up work. But if you're going to have any volume of bricks being installed with a team of bricklayers, you have to work in new construction. And Az (16:45) Yeah, true. Andy Shaw (16:46) so where that's different to say, let's just say a painter, for example, a painter Az (16:51) Mm. Andy Shaw (16:51) works in new construction, but they also repaint houses. And they Az (16:55) Yeah. Andy Shaw (16:55) can do their whole career and never paint a new house because Az (16:58) Yeah. Andy Shaw (16:59) there's not enough money in it, right? And then Az (17:00) Yep. Andy Shaw (17:01) or or they've got work elsewhere. A carpet layer, they work in new construction, but Az (17:06) Yeah. Andy Shaw (17:06) they also do insurance work. Carpet gets worn out. Az (17:08) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Andy Shaw (17:11) Electric electrical, residential construction, Az (17:14) Well Andy Shaw (17:15) but then you've got industrial work, you've got breakdown service work in mechanical, all sorts of different other markets that your trade can go into. No one Az (17:24) Yeah. Andy Shaw (17:24) ever rings up a bricklayer and says, I'm tired of my bricks, I want to pull them down and relay them. Az (17:28) True. This is interesting. So interesting. Andy Shaw (17:29) Right. Yes. So it means that we're more susceptible to the highs and lows of construction than any other trade. Az (17:39) Where Andy Shaw (17:40) And we're under more price pressure because there's a supply and demand issue that goes with that. We haven't we have nowhere else to go with our skill set if there's not enough work for all of us. So so for the s for the eighteen or nineteen thousand bricklayers that are in Australia. We're all fighting over the same pool of work. But WA will be a boom. Victoria's in a crash. Queensland's in a boom. New South Az (18:04) Yeah. Yep. Andy Shaw (18:07) Wales. Okay, you know? So so Az (18:09) Yeah. Andy Shaw (18:10) they're spread all over Australia, but they don't move around itinerantly to where the work is all the time. So Az (18:16) Yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (18:17) it's feast or famine. So you're working seven days Az (18:19) Why? Andy Shaw (18:20) a week, just getting as many bricks in as you can when things are Tough because you can't find bricklays that don't grow on trees. And then Az (18:26) Yeah. Andy Shaw (18:26) when we go into a quiet patch and there's not enough work for everyone, they all jump out and there's only like a fifteen percent chance of ever coming back. Az (18:35) This is actually so interesting, Andy. I've never thought of it. Andy Shaw (18:35) Right, so yeah, so that's where I say that there's some things that are baked into the system. Right. Az (18:42) Yeah. Andy Shaw (18:42) So so just understanding that that we're very regional, we work in our region, and therefore we're really susceptible to what's going on in that region. You know, Az (18:53) Mm. Andy Shaw (18:53) so the average age of a bricklayer in Australia is 49 to 50. Az (18:58) Yeah. Andy Shaw (18:59) So Mathematically, and this is just maths, we're gonna lose half of our existing workforce in the next ten to fifteen years. They're just attrition, natural attrition. You know? Yeah. Az (19:07) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. A hundred percent. Wow. Andy Shaw (19:13) Yeah. Az (19:14) It was fascinating the way you look at Brick. I've never heard it described like that, but you are completely true. And then it makes sense why you know there's not a nationalisation of pricing or whatever it may be, where you get it kind of amongst a going rate amongst other trades. It is, like you say, very dictated by what's happening on happening in the market. And that must make it Extremely hard for bricklayers because you're you're Andy Shaw (19:37) Yeah, so that Az (19:37) pricing according to supply and demand, as you say. Andy Shaw (19:40) Absolutely. So therefore, as a business owner, and this is what I was saying earlier in the piece, as a business Az (19:44) Hmm. Andy Shaw (19:45) owner, you really need to understand one hundred percent. You've got to know what your worth is, but you've got to know what value you're bringing to the market in your sector. Az (19:54) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, do do you think that the do you think that the industry builders and things like that and and we've got a great community of builders, Andy, all all of them are very, you know, we we open up conversations, as you know, here on The Good Builder, so we can kind of express our opinion. Do you think the industry values how much knowledge and capability these people have at the moment? You know, like or or do brickies sometimes struggle? I know talking from my experiment to my father in law, he used to always tell me about, you know, he'd be negotiating with builders and negotiating with builders and when, you know, times were better, maybe they go and go to another brickie or something rather than pay him an extra twenty five cents a brick. which I think is ridiculous because in the end, they used to get shoddy at work because he's got a great reputation, and I'm happy to say that, and they would get a really good job at the end of it, and they knew it, and they'd always come back. Do you think that there's a bit of a lack of respect for the lack of a better word in the industry around the experience and knowledge that Brithys I used to think they rule the side. Andy Shaw (20:54) Yeah, so that this is a complex question, Aaron, and and because I've worked in the building side of it, being a con supervisor, Az (21:03) Yeah. Andy Shaw (21:04) and then I stepped up to being a construction manager for another company for for about twelve months after Az (21:09) Yeah. Andy Shaw (21:10) that, before I started the association, Az (21:12) Mm. Andy Shaw (21:13) I wouldn't want to be a residential builder at the moment in Australia, and that's coming from the start of COVID moving forward. There Az (21:21) Okay. Andy Shaw (21:21) we we see it already and and I'll talk a bit more about this, about the pain that you go through. But builders are in pain at the moment. Az (21:28) Yeah. Andy Shaw (21:29) They're not they're not making money. I Az (21:32) Yeah. Andy Shaw (21:32) I barely know a builder that survived through COVID that hasn't injected back in 50 to 80% of what they made the 15 years beforehand to carry their business through to where it is now. Like they Az (21:46) Sorry. Andy Shaw (21:46) have poured a huge amount of money back in. So there's Az (21:49) Yeah. Andy Shaw (21:49) no way I'm gonna bash a builder. Az (21:51) Yep. Andy Shaw (21:52) Because they're under price pressure, right? Az (21:54) Yeah. Andy Shaw (21:54) But what I am gonna say is that when you're a builder and there's an opportunity to save some money somewhere by squeezing out some labor on and taught and playing a couple of bricklayers off against each other because things are quiet, you're gonna do that because it's survival of the fittest, right? But Az (22:14) Okay. Yeah. Andy Shaw (22:15) But in our industry, we have to, and this is part of what we're doing at Bricky's Network, we have to Az (22:21) Mm. Andy Shaw (22:21) teach not just bricklayers, but the building industry as a whole and Az (22:27) Mm. Andy Shaw (22:27) the bricklaying industry as a whole that we're very, very fragile. To Az (22:33) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (22:34) so I'll give you a quick example. So bricklaying is one of the only industries left in construction. That everyone talks in a piece rate for installation. Right? So, Az (22:45) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (22:47) so let me, if I paint a picture, you're sitting at the pub, you're having a Az (22:50) Mm. Andy Shaw (22:51) beer, introduced to a bloke, he goes, Hey, my name's Andy. What do you do for a crust? I'm a bricklayer, mate. Mate, that's a tough Az (22:57) Yeah. Andy Shaw (22:58) job. Hey, how many bricks can you lay in a day? Right? It's almost the first question you get asked as a bricklayer. And Az (23:04) Yeah. Andy Shaw (23:04) they'll go, and Probably they say, on my best day I've laid a thousand bricks or or whatever it might be. And almost Az (23:10) Yeah. Andy Shaw (23:12) the second question that comes out every time is how much do you get paid a brick? Right? So there's Az (23:17) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (23:20) this talk of a piece rate all the time. But if you Az (23:23) And Andy Shaw (23:23) were talking to a plumber, you wouldn't say, How much do you get to lay a pipe? You know? Yeah, how much do you get a PowerPoint to an electrician? Right? So, right? Az (23:27) How many parks do you like? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (23:34) And If you're talking peace rates Az (23:37) Yeah. Andy Shaw (23:37) There's a it automatically makes everyone the same. Az (23:41) Yeah, does. Andy Shaw (23:42) Which we're not. There's a lot of skill gaps. So so if if someone can squeeze down a piece rate a little bit tighter than because they need to make some more money as a builder, you can't blame them for doing that. And if a bricklayer accepts it, well they're kind of in a Az (23:56) I'll get it. Andy Shaw (23:56) situation, if they've got nowhere else to go with their skill Az (23:59) Mm Andy Shaw (24:00) set because of the way the industry works, then Az (24:03) Yeah. Andy Shaw (24:04) it's either take it or leave it and There's many other industries that don't exist in extra in Australia anymore that worked on peace rates like textiles, car park manufacturing, things like that, where there was an overarching sort of you couldn't go anywhere else with your skill set. And Az (24:21) Yeah. Andy Shaw (24:21) in the end the peace rate got drove so low that it was unprofitable and the industries collapsed. And that's why I say that we're really fragile. Az (24:29) Yeah. Yeah. No, wow. Makes perfect sense, mate. No. Andy Shaw (24:31) Right. So not bashing out a builder and saying that, but the builders need to understand that if if we don't nurture this industry and Az (24:39) Yeah. Andy Shaw (24:40) teach the entire industry what it costs to actually bare minimum to install, employ people, do the job, and every job's different, Aaron. You y you'd understand this talking to so many different builders. If you're working Az (24:56) Yeah. Andy Shaw (24:56) on a volume residential house that's got three meters around the outside of it, all the way Az (25:01) Yeah. Andy Shaw (25:02) around, you get a smooth run. You can install a lot of bricks. You know, Az (25:04) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (25:06) but if you're working on a compact inner city site that's had a knockdown rebuild of two apartments and you've only got a meter down either side, you Az (25:14) Yeah. Andy Shaw (25:15) know, it makes it very hard to get a lot of bricks in. So your productivity output fluctuates a lot. But if you're anchored to a set Az (25:23) Yeah. And if you're going on a per brick. Mm. Andy Shaw (25:26) Pet per brick price blanket across all jobs, then it doesn't reflect the true value that you're bringing to the market on that job. Right? Az (25:35) Mate, this is cool. Yep. Andy Shaw (25:38) So there a couple of little things that are that are baked into it. And as a whole, the industry. Az (25:44) Yeah. Mm. Andy Shaw (25:46) It may be known of, but it's not talked about, and they don't truly understand what the long term impacts of this are, because we have lost forty percent of our bricklayers in the last thirty years. in Australia. Yet our population has gone up by a third, Aaron. Az (26:00) That is huge. Yeah. Yeah, huge. Exactly. Andy, mate, this is a really important conversation. I I love how you're going through it like this. I mean, you could hear the way I talked about my father in law as a brickie right then. I was talking about per brick rates, talking about this, talking about that. Even I don't have a full understanding. So thank you so much for sharing, you know, your knowledge on on how it operates across the country and Andy Shaw (26:26) Mm-hmm. Az (26:27) and you know that. No job's the same. And if you're working on a per brick rate, it makes total sense, mate, because if you can install a thousand bricks on one job and the other site's harder, as you say, you're doing 500 on the other, you're just doing your arson every day. Every day you work on that other job for the same rate, it takes longer. So very Andy Shaw (26:43) Yep. Yeah. Az (26:44) interesting, mate. Real interesting for the industry and for I think builders to hear that as well. Andy Shaw (26:50) Mm-hmm. Az (26:51) One of the other things, you know, talking around the the thirty percent that have left the industry, and talking about the people coming in now, apprenticeships are always presented as the way, you know, to to answer the trade shortages that are happening out there. But you know, there's a there's a lot of a lack of completion rates amongst apprentices right now. And we've reported on this a fair bit at the Good Build. It'd be interesting to see what happens in the bricklaying industry. I'm sure you'll answer this, Andy. But how long are we kind of seeing apprentices stay in the bricklaying industry and and where are they actually leaving? Where when and why are people leaving along the journey, Andy? Andy Shaw (27:30) Yeah, I'm really glad you've asked this, mate, because it's it's a big topic and Az (27:35) Yeah. Andy Shaw (27:36) it's not just bricklaying, it's across the trade that it's across all trades that some of these things that I'll talk about apply. But okay, Az (27:43) Okay. Andy Shaw (27:44) let's talk about completion rates of bricklaying. So we talked about numbers of bricklayers, average age of 50. We're gonna lose those 50% of our workforce in this 10 to 15 years. That works out to be Approximately 1200 bricklayers a year on average for the next 10 to 15 years that we're going to lose just through attrition. Now, completion, so completion rates of traditional apprenticeships, the three-year apprenticeship, because it takes years to become a competent tradesman, and that's Az (28:14) Mm. Andy Shaw (28:15) just learning. You got to still then have time to make a few stuff-ups, mate, and learn from your mistakes and all of those things as well. So Az (28:20) absolutely. Yeah. Andy Shaw (28:22) Completion rates of a traditional apprenticeship are around about 650 a year. So we're half shy in attrition, just to Az (28:30) Well. Andy Shaw (28:30) stay on the same. Okay. But but the numbers are even more complex than that. So our trade, our apprentice apprentice certification is a certificate three and brick and block lane. That's what it is in Australia. Right? Now you can do that. Through either a traditional apprenticeship in TAFE, a Az (28:49) Mm. Andy Shaw (28:49) traditional apprenticeship through an RTO, which might be an on-site in-classroom learning model, but that's also doing your time on the job while you're learning. But then there's another Az (28:57) Yeah. Andy Shaw (28:58) way of doing that, you can do it through a fast-track learning or a quickie-brickie course. Within 12 months, it's a full-time course, which is effectively three or four hundred hours or five hundred hours in a classroom with no on-the-job experience and you come out with on paper the same qualification but you have no on-the-job skill, you have no industry Az (29:19) No what? Andy Shaw (29:21) experience, and add zero value to the workforce. Zero. You might Az (29:27) Mm. Yeah, well, yeah. Andy Shaw (29:28) they might become a laborer and then tr transition somewhere into an apprentice a a bricklayer later on, but Az (29:35) Mm. Andy Shaw (29:35) once they get So effectively, I say we've got 650 coming out. However, how many stay in the industry? That's another question again. That finish Az (29:46) Mm. Andy Shaw (29:46) their traditional apprenticeship. Now, I'm gonna be pretty brutal here, and this is across all of the trades. ABNs get handed out like lollies by the tax department, right? So Az (29:56) Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Andy Shaw (29:59) 75% of everyone working in the bricklaying sector that are working as an employee, working for a principal bricklaying contractor that works for the builder, 75% of them are employed with an ABN on an hourly rate on a part-time, permanently part-time, full time basis. Az (30:18) Yeah. Andy Shaw (30:18) But only paid casually for the hours they work. Might Az (30:22) Where? Andy Shaw (30:23) be fifty dollars, sixty dollars, seventy dollars an hour. They don't receive any superannuation. They don't Az (30:26) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (30:28) have any workers' compensation that covers them if they get injured. And Az (30:31) Wow. Andy Shaw (30:32) if and if it rains, they get sent home, they have no money. If Az (30:36) No money. Andy Shaw (30:37) the job's not ready, sent home, they have no money. When you Az (30:40) Well. Andy Shaw (30:40) do an apprenticeship, when A young bloke does an apprenticeship and I'll go back to these guys that are that are doing the the fast track learning in a minute, but when you do a bricklaying apprenticeship or you take on any trade, any trade Az (30:52) Mm. Andy Shaw (30:52) as an apprentice, for a young guy, what's the first and foremost thing that you would want as an employee? Az (30:59) You'd want to support. I think you'd want you'd want to be paid. Andy Shaw (31:03) Bingo, you want consistent income. It's a job for you. There's a career in it, there's an education. Az (31:06) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (31:10) An apprenticeship is really tertiary education in a sense, you know. Az (31:13) Yeah. Andy Shaw (31:14) But you need continuity and consistency of income. So Az (31:17) Yeah. Andy Shaw (31:19) what happens with a lot of these kids that go through their apprenticeship? This is only one of the reasons, Aaron. I'll go into two or three. One of the reasons. So they Az (31:25) Yeah. Yeah, no worries. Andy Shaw (31:27) go through their apprenticeship. Az (31:28) Yeah. Andy Shaw (31:28) They get their consistent income of first year, second year, third year, fourth year, whatever it is. They Az (31:33) Yeah. Andy Shaw (31:33) get to the end of their apprenticeship, and this is where it's the way it's always been in Brick Lane. Their boss says to them, We don't employ you as an employee anymore. If you want to continue working for us, you've got to go get an ABN like all the other workers, and I pay you for the hours that you work. And the first Az (31:50) Mm. Andy Shaw (31:51) winter they have, they earn less than they did when they were a third or a fourth year apprentice. You know? Az (31:55) Far out. Andy Shaw (31:56) And so their in their income is no longer consistent. And that makes it really hard to build a personal life. And Az (32:04) Yeah. Andy Shaw (32:05) I'm not saying that the employ so by law you're not allowed to do that, Aaron. That's that's that's actually highly against the law now, Az (32:09) Hmm. Yeah. Andy Shaw (32:12) especially now there's been legislative changes, which I'll talk about a little bit later, around Az (32:15) Yeah. Andy Shaw (32:16) employment. But it's just the way it's always been. I started my apprenticeship back in the nineties. In 2002, the guy I worked for, John, he had advice from his accountant. Hey, mate, you can save money here if you switch all your workers over to ABN workers because we've got GST now, right? Az (32:32) Yeah. Andy Shaw (32:32) And then six or twelve months later, he came back to us and said, This isn't working for us. We don't like it ethically. We feel like we're just profit profiteering off not paying you your entitlement. So we want to put you all back on wages. You know, and I carried that through in my business as well. I feel like that's, you know. Az (32:45) Yeah. Very cool. I love it. Yeah. Andy Shaw (32:50) It's an ethical thing to do. I don't know if it was growing Az (32:52) Mm. Andy Shaw (32:52) up in a Christian household or whatever it was, but that just crossed an ethical line I didn't like. But Az (32:55) Yeah. I love it. No, it's cool. Mm. Andy Shaw (33:00) our industry relies on that heavily to keep labor costs down because we're a labor-intensive Az (33:08) Yeah. Andy Shaw (33:08) industry. So that's that's one that's one part of the apprenticeship retaining thing. Also, So which which is a big issue. I don't have you ever spoken about that before, Aaron? Az (33:21) No, no, I'll tell you what, we haven't. Andy, you like this podcast, mate, what you're raising in this podcast, we've done over three hundred and forty episodes now and no one's talked about. I am sitting here infatuated, mate, with what you're saying. Like it's very interesting. Cause if you I'm kind of putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. You know, you talk about having an ABN and then you're talking about the per per brick rate. And then not being able to work and then having to, if you're the principal bricklayer, then you know having to cop a job that you you've priced unfortunately wrong if you're going for a per brick rate because it's a more complex build. It all sees a bit of a domino effect, doesn't it, in the industry and then people falling over. And I can see this is why no one's talked about this. But you know so much about it and I can see that's where you help, mate. So sorry, I'll y you keep going, but no one's talked about this. This is very freaking cool, man. Like this is really cool. Hmm. Andy Shaw (34:12) Yeah, so so that's why I say there's certain things that are baked into the system that affect Az (34:17) Yeah. Andy Shaw (34:18) not only the industry, but they affect the the bricklayer and the installer in diff in different ways. So apprenticeship-wise, Az (34:23) Yep. Yeah. Andy Shaw (34:27) there's another reason why we we struggle with retention. So we talked about threat 650 odd completing each year. That's Az (34:34) Yep. Andy Shaw (34:34) a lot of the time that takes four or five years to get to still over multiple employers, right? Az (34:39) Okay. Andy Shaw (34:40) But on average, Az (34:40) Yeah. Andy Shaw (34:40) that's what it's been for the last couple of years. Az (34:42) Okay. Andy Shaw (34:43) But but also enrollment rate is about three or four times that. But we lose Az (34:49) Okay. Andy Shaw (34:50) a lot of them in the first and second year. So what happens in BrickLane, because it is labor intensive, it's it costs money and time to train a new person. Right? Az (35:01) Yeah. Yep. Andy Shaw (35:02) Some employers put apprentices on for cheap laborers. Az (35:05) Yeah. Andy Shaw (35:05) Or they fold into bricklaying where that they inevitably start out laboring and then Az (35:12) Mm. Andy Shaw (35:13) move their way up to laying bricks a c a day or two a week and then so on and so forth to laying bricks. A lot of employers tend to leave them in the laboring situation for far too long. So they start an apprenticeship because they want to become a bricklayer, and Az (35:30) Yeah. Andy Shaw (35:30) it gets to 12 months in, they're like, Am I ever going to start laying bricks other than being at trade school? There's no end in sight Az (35:36) Yeah, right. Andy Shaw (35:38) for that. It's just become their role on site. And then Az (35:41) Yeah. Yeah, well. Andy Shaw (35:42) and then if they make it through that first year, they get to the second year, which that means they've gone through the physical pain, the emotional sh thing that a young guy goes through. And I say a young guy because 99.9% of bricklayers are blokes. Az (35:56) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (35:56) You know, even though there are some introductions of some great women into the trade, which is brilliant. Az (36:00) Absolutely. Yeah. Andy Shaw (36:01) But majority of them are young men. So they've gone through that emotional pain of Az (36:07) Mm-hmm. Andy Shaw (36:08) the hierarchy of competence. You don't know what you don't know, then you know you don't know, and Az (36:12) Yeah. Andy Shaw (36:13) then suddenly you know you know, but you're not very good at it, and then when you become an expert, Az (36:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (36:17) you you don't know what you actually know, you've forgotten it, right? But they've gone through that pain and it's an emotion. That's when you lose guys. When you start an apprenticeship, you know you don't know. You're just like, I'm winging it here. I'm just learning as I go. But then suddenly Az (36:31) Yeah. Andy Shaw (36:32) you realize I know I don't know. I know I don't know what I'm doing. I need Az (36:35) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Andy Shaw (36:38) more direction. I'm not feeling like I'm getting it. This is a painful time. That's when we lose the majority of young people in apprenticeships because they know they don't know. They want to learn. But they're just being yelled and screamed at, and there's a lot of pressure on them to get more mud, get more bricks, whatever it might be. So I can go on with this a lot, but you sort of understand the picture I'm starting to paint. And they get to a year and a half into their second year, they still haven't hardly laid bricks. They know they're not very good at it. Their boss knows they're not a very good bricklayer, but it's starting to cost every employer a bit more money per year for a kid that Az (37:10) Yeah. Andy Shaw (37:11) still can't have impact on overall productivity other than bringing more bricks and more mud. So Az (37:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (37:17) They sit there and go, there's no future in this. Az (37:20) Mm. Andy Shaw (37:20) I I'm just gonna get ahead of it while I can. And they Az (37:24) Yeah. Andy Shaw (37:24) could have been amazing tradesmen, but they just didn't Az (37:27) Yeah. Andy Shaw (37:28) probably have the right supportive network as an employee or as any support from from somewhere else, like a mentor or something like that, was giving them support. You're gonna get through it, mate. Yeah. Az (37:37) Yeah. Or like you guys. Like you guys? Andy Shaw (37:41) Exactly right. That's one of the reasons Az (37:41) Yeah, absolute absolute no Andy Shaw (37:42) why Bricky's Network, we a free brickliers apprenticeship, a br apprentices apprenticeship membership. Az (37:46) I've seen it, mate. Like feel free to plug yourself because this is a really as I said, you keep going, but this is a really fascinating podcast and I think it's answering a lot of stuff across the entire industry. You know how you said, Andy, this is just doesn't apply to brickies. You're completely right, mate. We did a bit of a we got some data anyway and and I won't talk too long about it, but very quickly. Apprentices are leaving because it's before. You've nailed it on the head, mate. So and you I think you've described it exactly the way the industry needs to hear it. So yeah, you Andy Shaw (38:16) Yeah. Az (38:17) go keep going, mate. Andy Shaw (38:18) Yeah, so so they're the two main drivers that get Az (38:22) Mm-hmm. Andy Shaw (38:22) into it and then and then we get to the end of their apprenticeship. They may have finished their apprenticeship, but they're not really up to scratch technical wise. Az (38:30) Yeah. Andy Shaw (38:31) they don't want to go off and they're either their employer says you've finished your apprenticeship, but they're not really up to scratch, so they don't really want them as a full-time worker, right? Az (38:40) Yeah. Andy Shaw (38:41) Because they're not an regular and they're gonna cost too much. So they send them off into the big bad world. They go off and find another employer. Unless that employer really takes them under their wing, like my boss did, they Az (38:52) Mm. Andy Shaw (38:53) just go, We can't afford to pay you because your productivity output as a bricklayer is not good enough. Az (38:58) Yeah. Andy Shaw (38:58) So they they leave the industry. It's and it's just because they didn't get to where they needed to be by the time they were qualified. So Az (39:06) Yeah. Andy Shaw (39:07) they inevitably leave the industry. And I know many young guys that have gone off and Az (39:10) Mm. Andy Shaw (39:10) started another trade. And do Az (39:12) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (39:14) you know what? Those other Az (39:15) Mm. Andy Shaw (39:16) trades that they go to embrace them because they're reliable, they're hardworking, they're committed. They actually do understand the construction industry and can Az (39:26) Mm. Andy Shaw (39:26) apply what they've seen on site to the next trade that might be plumbing, electrical. Something like that. And their boss goes, This kid's amazing. I'm getting someone that's so knowledgeable about the industry. I've only just Az (39:40) Mm. Andy Shaw (39:40) got to teach him to be a plumber. You know? Az (39:42) Yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (39:44) So it's a real shame that we lose those guys. There's a real Az (39:47) Yeah. Andy Shaw (39:48) gap there. So that's what so that's where it comes down to skill. Skill and retention is a problem. Yep. Az (39:56) Yeah. Wow. No, as I said, Andy, I think we're having a conversation the industry needs to have. Like you're bringing to light a lot of very cool stuff. And and and that needs to be fixed or or how do we do it? And and I think that the BRICE network is a is a key to it. I I can see like the other thing that I see, Andy, is like you kind of see, you know, residential builders, for example, we've you know, we've got the Master Builders Association and HIA, which typically look after You know, the builders. They they don't really look after Brickies if we're gonna be honest about it. They're not really caring too much about their business and and no they shouldn't be. I'm not having a shot at They just don't do that. So who's doing Andy Shaw (40:35) No, not at all. No, no, it's not their job. Az (40:38) it? So who's doing it for the Bricky's net you know, for the brickies out there? You. Do you know what I mean? Like w it's so needed. Andy Shaw (40:42) Well there there is ourselves. There there is another association in Sydney called the Bricklayer Contractors Australia, but they're Az (40:50) Yeah. Andy Shaw (40:50) very commercially focused. And Az (40:53) Yeah. Andy Shaw (40:53) I I'd encourage any bricklayer out there to join them and go to their breakfast that they have every couple of months because Az (40:59) cool. Mm. Andy Shaw (41:01) you will meet the biggest and the best commercial brick and block layers in Australia and they know Az (41:07) He's such a legend. Andy Shaw (41:08) business. Az (41:10) Very cool. Andy Shaw (41:10) They're not just bricklayers, they know business. Learn from this is where we we fall down in bricklay is understanding Az (41:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (41:17) the business side of it and what's Az (41:19) Mm. Andy Shaw (41:19) needed to run a profitable, sustainable, compliant business. So you can afford to train staff. So you can afford to put on laborers and have your apprentices laying bricks. All of these different things that mean that there's sustainability. Yep. Az (41:33) Yeah, exactly. Mate, and this is what you're all about, and this is exactly what we need. This is a fascinating pod, mate. other thing that you talked about was the difference between having the qualification and genuinely valuable on site. And that's where a lot, you know, probably a lot of the principal brickies and even to a degree, maybe some builders, maybe see that that bit of a downfall and why people leave the industry, as you said. What does a capable, productive bricklayer actually look like to an employer? And does the current training system, do you think, produce enough at the standard that we need to be at right now? Andy. Andy Shaw (42:06) That's that's another fantastic question, mate. Like so I'm gonna flip for both industry and bricklayer aside here. So so f for a bricklaying business owner, so we're gonna let's let's break it down even more. The individual bricklayer on site, that's Az (42:22) Mm. Andy Shaw (42:22) the employee or the worker for the principal bricklaying contractor, the principal Az (42:26) Yeah. Andy Shaw (42:26) bricklaying contractor who is working for the builder, and then how this has goes for the industry as well. Let's break this down so Az (42:32) Love it. Andy Shaw (42:33) right. So for the individual bricklayer on site, they need to be reliable and highly skilled and proficient at what they do. So they have to be able to get into that rhythm, lay that quality product that doesn't need to be adjusted because it is a face product now, right? Bricklaying is mostly face. Az (42:52) Yeah. Mm. Andy Shaw (42:55) It's gonna be face. Once you lay it, you can't fix it. It's not like plaster board where you can. Effectively put another skin over it and paint it and everything's all good. When it's laid, it's done, right? And it's outside, Az (43:06) Mm. Andy Shaw (43:07) it's it's a finished product outside. So you have Az (43:09) Yeah. Andy Shaw (43:09) to be reliable, competent, and proficient at what you do and and lay a reasonable quantity of bricks. And that changes from job to job, but Az (43:19) Yeah. Andy Shaw (43:19) you have to be able to do that consistently, right? But do it reliably that you turn up every day, right? For the Az (43:24) Yeah. Andy Shaw (43:24) bricklaying business owner. This is where it's really, really hard. And this is probably the most painful thing that bricklaying business owners, if they want to be successful for the next 10 to 15 years, are going to deal with, right? Az (43:37) Okay. Andy Shaw (43:37) Is building a workforce training skilled staff in your business that will stay for 10 or 15 years. Right? This is going to be Az (43:47) Yep. Totally agree. Andy Shaw (43:49) the hardest and most painful thing you do because. They cost time and money and it's Az (43:56) Mm. Andy Shaw (43:56) challenging in the market to get that much money to be able to do it. Right. If you're running a brick lane business at the moment. Nearly everyone you speak to says, he when I say, have you got an apprentice on? They nah, it's too hard. Nah, I'm I I just can't be bothered. It takes up too much time. You go through 20 to get one, right? I said, so what are you doing? we're just employing bricklayers. I go, where do you think those bricklayers are coming from? Because everyone else has the same attitude. If you're running a Az (44:24) Yeah. Andy Shaw (44:24) bricklaying business today, my opinion, you should have one apprentice for every two to three bricklayers you have working for you. minimum because you will not Az (44:33) Love it. Yeah. Andy Shaw (44:34) have a workforce in five years' time because one of those bricklayers will be 55 will be gone in five years. So you're only replacing one. It's a bit like when you're married. If you there's two people in a marriage, if we want to replace them in society, they have to have two kids. It's just maths. Right? Az (44:51) Yeah. Andy Shaw (44:51) So that is the hardest thing that a bricklaying business is going to face Az (44:55) Wow. Andy Shaw (44:55) at the moment. And It takes time to teach them. You can't pluck them out of thin air. So we have to have a business model that folds into the industry. So the industry has installers, right? Yeah. Az (45:07) Yeah. Yep. Andy Shaw (45:08) Yeah. Let me just explain one of the challenges for the brick-laying business owner, right? So in nearly every other trade, plumbing, electrical, painting, they supply and install. Az (45:20) Yeah. Andy Shaw (45:20) They supply the product and they install it. Plumbers, when Az (45:23) Yeah. Andy Shaw (45:23) you engage a plumber, whether you're a builder, private B2C or whatever it you ring up, you get the plumber, they supply all the pipe, they get the digger, they do all that sort of stuff. It's start to finish. Az (45:31) Yeah. Andy Shaw (45:32) In residential building, the majority of large builders purchase the bricks for the bricklayer Az (45:38) Mm. Andy Shaw (45:39) off the manufacturer. So the man so if you think about it as a triangle that we have. Manufacturers that make the product, the builder that buys the product, and then the bricklayer down here that installs it. Right? Az (45:50) Yeah. Andy Shaw (45:50) So the manufacturer needs the builder that buys the bricks, and he also needs the installer to install the bricks, right? Right. Az (45:55) Yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (45:57) But the manufacturer communicates and sells to the builder, he's got his money, got his client, all that sort of stuff. And then he leaves the installation to the builder, and the inst the builder in gets their installer. But if there if there's that squeeze, To the bricklayer, effectively there's no connection really between the bricklayer and the manufacturer. Right? So Az (46:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (46:17) we have a situation where I would say in the nicest possible way, the manufacturers have dropped the ball of looking after the installers into it, ensuring that they've got enough installers for their product into the future. Because the Az (46:28) Yeah. Andy Shaw (46:28) squeeze that comes from their client onto the installer is pushing their installer out. So the triangle doesn't rejoin, if you know what I mean. So Az (46:35) Yeah. Yep. Andy Shaw (46:38) That's how it's affecting the the big picture of the industry. And that's part of what Bricky's network's Az (46:42) Yeah. Andy Shaw (46:42) trying to do is reconnect that triangle to go. Az (46:46) I love it. Andy Shaw (46:47) You guys need everyone needs everyone, Az (46:50) Yeah. Andy Shaw (46:51) but sort of the installer, there's no financial connection between the manufacturer and the installer. That goes to the builder, it goes that way, it's not connected there. So if there's not a preferred installer model that guarantees a quality outcome that the business is running a sustainable, profitable business training people into the future, the loot doesn't Az (47:11) Mm. Andy Shaw (47:12) get closed. Az (47:13) Yeah, no, makes why I I did not know that, Andy. And I've been involved in a bunch of different building, right? Not not the brickie, although my father in law was a brickie. I was very heavily involved prior to the Good Builder, helping consult with roofing businesses, for example. And the roofers had direct, had direct, and I was in meetings, access to Blue Scope. And I would sit there. And they're negotiating price based upon the volume of work they've got coming up, and then can go off to the builders. So again, another penny drop for me during this pod. So you're saying there, Andy, that the brickie basically is left a little bit I I might say this negatively, and I don't mean it, but in some situations a little bit squeezed. It's like you don't have any moving room with the bricks you're buying because you're not you've got no association or relationship with the supplier. Andy Shaw (47:58) Well they're not the bricklayers aren't buying that's it. Yeah. Az (48:01) Exactly. Yeah. And like you're saying. And then so the the builders buying the bricks, so they're just kinda like, This is what you want it we want you to do it for. And they're kind Andy Shaw (48:09) Yeah. Az (48:10) of going, Whoa, whoa, okay, I could if I could move the price of the bricks if I was purchasing the bricks, which a lot of the other such as roofers can do because they negotiate a a term of tonnage on a bit of coil or whatever, and they're Andy Shaw (48:22) Yeah. Az (48:23) and they're off and running. Interesting. Andy Shaw (48:25) It exactly right. So when you're running a business, and I come from a retail family where my father was was Az (48:32) Mm. Andy Shaw (48:33) was a builder at one stage, but he owned furniture stores. So right, Az (48:36) I love it. It's good. Andy Shaw (48:37) so there's a markup and a margin they're putting on the material Az (48:40) Yep. Andy Shaw (48:41) that they're purchasing, and then there's the labor cost of the salesman, all rest of it. And my old man always used to say, I don't understand this per thousand thing. He goes, Where do you make a profit? And Az (48:51) Yeah. Andy Shaw (48:52) and so Also, the other side of it is is so y you're basically just supplying labor a lot of the time. You might be supplying some Az (49:00) Yeah. Andy Shaw (49:01) cement and some lime and whatever else and some sand, but your majority is labor. Like 70 to 80 percent of your bill is going to be labor easy, right? Az (49:07) This is Labor, okay. Yep. Andy Shaw (49:08) Right, just labor cost. Now, labor is also the variable Aaron. That's where shit goes wrong, that's where you lose money. We stuff up, we're human, we mix the mortar wrong, we put the wall in at a level, we have to pull it down, we lose it on labor, but we don't but the materials are constant. There's a meter Az (49:29) Mm. Andy Shaw (49:29) of sand per thousand bricks, there's you know, twelve bags of cement, there's fifty bricks Az (49:34) Yeah. Andy Shaw (49:34) per square meter of a standard size brick here in Australia. Right? They're all constants, they're all the same. If you're not making some sort of profit margin on the constants on the materials. And you're expected to only make money on your labour, you are squeezed even tighter. Because we Az (49:51) Yeah, well. Andy Shaw (49:51) have we're also an outside trade. We have inclement weather. We lose time. We have Az (49:57) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (49:59) jobs that aren't ready scheduling-wise because that's just what happens. We have public Az (50:04) Yeah. Andy Shaw (50:05) holidays, sick days. We're in Australia, in the majority Az (50:08) Mm. Andy Shaw (50:09) of Australia, our most of our holidays and our public holidays are when we have the Best weather. In summer. We lose Az (50:16) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (50:19) time when we're at our most productive weather-wise. And then we're basically from Easter all the way through to Melbourne Cup. We don't have a public holiday, and that's when it's pouring rain in spring and winter and boggy Az (50:31) Yeah. Andy Shaw (50:32) and slow going. So so that's what I say. These challenges that we have, they affect the bricklayer and cause a lot of pain. But Az (50:41) Mm. Andy Shaw (50:42) it's bait. into the system. You know, and and Az (50:45) Yeah, I get it now. Andy Shaw (50:47) we're not aware of it unless we see the big picture. And Az (50:51) Yeah. Andy Shaw (50:51) w when I say I've talked I talk about pain a lot, Aaron, because you know pain's a driver for all of us and we want to avoid it, right? Az (50:59) Yeah. Andy Shaw (50:59) Now one thing I'm really passionate about is bricklayers that don't get paid for the work they do. Right? Az (51:07) Yeah, yeah, yep. Andy Shaw (51:09) We work for builders and developers. That's where we Az (51:12) Mm. Andy Shaw (51:12) have to do our work. Building companies are making up like 30% of all insolvencies at the moment. We're hemorrhaging Az (51:18) Mm. Andy Shaw (51:19) builders, which we need. We can't afford to lose them. But that Az (51:23) Mm. Andy Shaw (51:23) makes bricklayers more likely on average not to get paid because all of our work's with them. Right? So Az (51:30) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (51:32) when you're a bricklayer and you're a good installer, Knowing how to protect yourself from non-payment is something that's really important. It's something you really need to understand as a business owner because you're a supplier of labor. You're not supplying the materials all the time, you're a supplier of labor. But to Az (51:47) Yeah. Andy Shaw (51:47) have a conversation with your client, your builder or your developer that I want you to sign a contract with me that means that I can be a secured creditor. Az (51:59) Yeah. Andy Shaw (51:59) If something goes wrong to secure my payment, to secure my terms, that's Az (52:02) well. Andy Shaw (52:05) a very, very, very hard conversation to have when you're Az (52:09) Mm. Andy Shaw (52:10) worried that you might lose the work. Az (52:12) If you're not. join the Brickies Network and talk to Andy. One thing you said just there, mate, just stood hairs on the back of my neck. We just dropped a podcast with an insolvency expert around the Bathla case that's going on in New South Wales at the moment. And he likened it to the Carillion thing that happened in the UK where where the UK builder went down with about six point seven billion similar sort of case. And he we went through all the trades that actually went in solvent as a result because they weren't secured creditors of it all. Mate, the stuff you are saying right now, I think it almost applies across the entire industry for educating trades and everything of all sorts. But Andy Shaw (52:52) Mm-hmm. Yep. Az (52:53) mate, yeah, I I am just absolutely freaking loving what you're talking about and how you you you're educating. I don't care how deep you want to go, mate. Go deep. You know, because Andy Shaw (53:04) Brilliant. Az (53:05) the information here I think is critical to the industry. You're completely right, mate. Andy Shaw (53:09) Yeah, so talking about being a secured creditor, most bricklayers don't know they can, don't know how to. Az (53:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (53:17) And nine times out of ten, the documentation they put in place before they start the job is not up to scratch to be able to do it because you have to have certain steps in place. It's very black and white step-by-step process. And we do Az (53:28) Okay. Where? Andy Shaw (53:31) that at Bricky's Network for our members. Az (53:33) So you help them with that. Andy Shaw (53:33) At at at a fee, I've got a bookkeeper that works for us that'll register you on the PPSR for your contracts Az (53:38) Do it. Andy Shaw (53:39) with your builder, no problem. And we'll teach you how to put that documentation in place. That for me, because it's very step-by-step system process, it's really easy to do. The difficulty we have with bricklayers is it's that hard conversation. They're very scared that if they bring up this conversation, they might lose the work and they they don't know where else to go to get more work. Az (54:02) Hmm. Andy Shaw (54:02) Because we only Az (54:02) Yeah. Andy Shaw (54:03) work for a certain amount of small pool of builders. But that's another discussion again. So so like I'm really passionate about that. And the reason I am is because I lived it. I lived it. I didn't get paid off a builder as a bricklayer. And it affected me emotionally. It affected my relationship. It exp it it affected me financially. It it Az (54:22) Mm-hmm. Andy Shaw (54:23) was it wasn't a huge amount of money. It was fifty grand, but fifty grand's still fifty grand, right? Az (54:28) Yeah. Andy Shaw (54:29) right. But if you're not making any money, you got no money in the bank account, fifty grand is your you're dead in the water, right? But Az (54:35) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (54:36) I went through the process, I I didn't get paid for the job. At that time we went to VCAT to argue it because the builder just said, I I say your work's defective and because there's defects involved or or he's got a claim, then he's got grounds not to pay you. But the the simple fact is he was never gonna pay me, right? I knew that right from the start. So we went to VCAT. At Az (54:55) Yeah. Wow. Andy Shaw (54:58) that time, it took four months to go to VCAT for this job, right? Az (55:01) Far out. Andy Shaw (55:02) We got to VCAT, it got awarded in my favor. All the Az (55:05) Mm. Andy Shaw (55:06) money got awarded to me. It was actually, it was actually $30,000. But then VCAT put another five thousand dollars on it because the builder didn't turn up the first time, just didn't turn up. So awarded Az (55:15) Wow. Andy Shaw (55:16) me, you know, a bit of hurt money for wasting my time, right? Az (55:18) Yeah. Good on you. Andy Shaw (55:20) The builder, but what happened? I served him with a credit of statutory demand to pay the Az (55:25) Mm. Andy Shaw (55:25) order. He didn't pay. I agreed to a payment plan of $10,000 every month. I think it was, I can't remember so long ago. It was 2012 or 2013, right? Az (55:35) Mm. Andy Shaw (55:36) But because I agreed to a payment plan, that meant he wasn't trading insolvent and he could continue trading. And that builder had then invoiced his client another $400,000 and just took it out of the bank account. I ended up sending him to the liquidators, paid the money to Az (55:50) Well Andy Shaw (55:51) the liquidator to put it to wind him up because the window guy was owed 100, the f the joiner has earned 60 grand, whatever it was, it was an ethical thing for me. Az (55:59) Yeah. Andy Shaw (56:01) And I didn't get any money still, even though I had the order and I'd put him into liquidation because I wasn't a security. Az (56:07) my God. And that, like you said, can tip a business into just not existing anymore. And we see it all Andy Shaw (56:14) Yeah. Az (56:14) the time. That's where I was sort of going with the baffler thing. They're sort Andy Shaw (56:17) Yeah. Az (56:17) of saying, Don't worry, you know, not don't worry, they're sort of saying, the insolvency guys are saying, just watch what happens over the next eighteen months in terms of business insolvencies and personal bankruptcy. Andy Shaw (56:30) Yeah. Az (56:30) That's what's gonna happen. And and this is why I'm so passionate about what you do and w everything you've talked about in this podcast, Andrew. Like you said, you've been talking a lot, mate, but you've got a lot to Andy Shaw (56:39) Yeah. Az (56:40) say. There's a lot that you're saying and educating the industry Andy Shaw (56:43) Yeah. Az (56:43) on that I think is critical, mate. Yeah. Andy Shaw (56:47) Yeah, yeah, exactly right. And without getting too sort of woo-woo here, Aaron, like Az (56:52) Yeah. Andy Shaw (56:53) that not being paid from that guy, I took it really personally and every bricklayer Az (56:57) Yeah. Andy Shaw (56:58) I know that hasn't been paid by someone, it feels like a personal attack because Az (57:03) Yeah. Andy Shaw (57:03) you haven't been you've put in a lot of effort and a lot of your Az (57:07) Mm. Andy Shaw (57:07) your time and effort. You just feel like you you should be paid for your time and effort. So I took that Az (57:12) Yeah. Andy Shaw (57:12) really personally, but I actually went into a really deep spiral with it. And I went into I was I was the victim and I just it took me a long time to get out of it and a Az (57:21) Yeah. Andy Shaw (57:22) lot of business mentorship to get out of it because it Az (57:25) Mm. Andy Shaw (57:25) really it just broke a core value, you know, that you Az (57:29) Yeah. Andy Shaw (57:29) shouldn't do that to people. And and it affected my relationship and it and ultimately I think if I hadn't gone down into that spiral, my marriage would have survived and it was nineteen years in. You know, and Az (57:39) Yeah, well. Andy Shaw (57:40) it wasn't a financial thing. We were financially fine, but just the way I carried myself through that, Az (57:45) Mm. Andy Shaw (57:45) it meant I had to do a lot of personal work as well. And I don't want to see I just don't want to see anyone needlessly in that sort of pain and have that happen to them, because it doesn't need to happen. Protect yourself with the right documentation and the conversation to start with and Az (57:55) Nah. Andy Shaw (58:00) start the way you want it to finish, pretty much. You know. Az (58:02) Yeah. Mate not better I don't think there's as simple as that advice is, Andy, I don't think there's better advice, mate. Look, I think that's what we don't do in construction and in bricklaying. We don't start with the foundation of having your business set up right and you've got the the right knowledge in things. And this is why we've created the good builder basically, to introduce them to people like you that are experts in the industry that can help people with that. That's what's gonna help save the industry. And I think what that's when you start and and I'm talking broadly about the industry, but when when people start to and businesses in this industry start to operate like that, then everything kind of you've got that mindset that everything can improve. And you've got that mindset that you know, of doing things the right way from the get-go across everything in your business. And I think that's, you know, the right way to go about it, Andy. You know, and and we're talking about, you know, we're not getting too dark, but we're talking about the absolute worst outcomes that can happen. But there's a lot of other pinch points along the way that can happen that can save yourself if you're doing the stuff you're talking about. Andy Shaw (59:03) And in hindsight, and nearly Az (59:05) Mm. Andy Shaw (59:06) every brickler I've spoken to, and other contractors as well, there was red flags along the way that I ignored. You know, Az (59:12) Okay. Yeah. Andy Shaw (59:13) through that situation. why is this guy not communicating with me like I'd expect him to? You know, what's Az (59:18) Yeah. Andy Shaw (59:19) going on here? How come we got any troubles with that? Why has this not happened in the right order on the building site? You know, there was red flags that go on and and and I'll I'll touch a little bit on that at the end at the Az (59:30) Yeah. Andy Shaw (59:31) end with you. But so So those things I'm I'm feeling I'm very passionate about and I just don't want to see bricklayers go through it. Yeah. Az (59:38) Yeah, and I think that's where your network works well too, Andy. Because if you've got this Andy Shaw (59:41) Mm. Yep. Az (59:42) community going on, which you do, and other brickies can talk to other brickies and talk about those things, I think you'll pick up on a few of those red flags because you can ask someone, you can kinda go, Hey, this is a bit odd. Andy Shaw (59:52) Mm. Az (59:52) Have you ever had this happen to me? Andy Shaw (59:55) Mm-hmm. Az (59:55) This is what it kind Andy Shaw (59:55) Yeah. Az (59:56) of resulted in for me. you're talking, you know, a lot about that logical business setup foundation stuff. There's, as you said, all those little things along the way that you and yourself Andy Shaw (1:00:05) Yeah. Az (1:00:05) and your your community can be a bit of a sounding board. I think it's phenomenal what you're doing, mate. You're doing you are doing what the good builder is. trying to do but you're doing it in real life and physically for the bricklayers out there, mate. I I take my hat off to you. I think it's I think it's cool, mate. Like I probably didn't understand Andy Shaw (1:00:21) No, thanks. Az (1:00:22) the extent being brutally honest with you and everyone on this pod Andy Shaw (1:00:26) Yeah. Az (1:00:27) of what brickies are up against. It it's Andy Shaw (1:00:29) Mm-hmm. Az (1:00:29) a very different trade now that I you've explained all the things around pricing, the way the businesses are you know, having contractors and stuff like that. So yeah, interesting. Andy Shaw (1:00:35) Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Hmm. Yeah. Az (1:00:40) Well beside all of that kind of you know businessy kind of stuff, I guess, and it this could be business type question as well, what are some of the pressures that people outside of your trade might not see? you know, whether that be the wages, the compliance, anything like that? Is there anything else outside of what we've talked about, Andy, that are that are putting pressure on a lot of the the bricklaying businesses out there or people within it? Andy Shaw (1:01:04) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I talked a little bit earlier about our way we've always done it for the last 25 years is pretty much the builder will engage a principal contractor, and then in the majority of cases, all of those workers are just those ABN contractors working underneath them and effectively running their own little businesses. Az (1:01:26) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:01:26) Now We're not allowed to do that. Safety legislation's changed. Employment legislation has changed. It's very clear that you're not allowed to do that. so compliance and employment costs has dramatically increased the amount of overhead and administration within every business. This is not just bricklaying, but Az (1:01:48) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:01:48) bricklaying is a high-risk industry, right? Az (1:01:51) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:01:51) Now Work safe, I think we're nearly the highest work safe or work cover percentage of wages out of any trade, nearly, right? In Victoria, Az (1:02:01) Yeah, wow. Andy Shaw (1:02:02) it's about eight and a half, eight to eight and a half percent. In New South Wales, it's about twelve percent of Az (1:02:08) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:02:08) wages and superannuation. So you see that bricklaying businesses they traditionally haven't paid any of that. Because they Az (1:02:16) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:02:16) didn't need to. That's the way they structured their business. So they're now having to restructure their business to not just pay an invoice to their boys on a Friday and then pay Az (1:02:25) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:02:26) a bit of public liability and pay some maintenance maintenance on a few tools and equipment and whatever else. And and it was a pretty low-cost business to run. Now it's Az (1:02:36) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:02:36) become more like a business, and we have to be business owners. That administration time and cost. Bookkeeping, all of those other things that you need to pay. Payday super hurts too, because if you've got to pay the super every week, right? So it just impedes cash flow, all Az (1:02:50) yeah. Yeah, good mention of that. Hmm. Andy Shaw (1:02:54) of those sorts of things. So effectively for a lot of businesses out there, and this is what the the larger industry doesn't realise, is because our industry's been set up on that model and has heavily Az (1:03:05) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:03:05) relied on that model, now that they're instantly basically Their overheads on labor has gone up by 20%, just like that. Super work colour. Boom. 20%. So, Az (1:03:12) Yeah, yeah, well. Andy Shaw (1:03:15) so how do you because you can't go back to your workers that have been Az (1:03:19) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:03:20) working for $55 an hour as a contractor for you and say to them, hey guys, I now have to change the employment model. Az (1:03:28) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:03:28) And I need to take your super and your work cover out of your $55 an hour. And then on top of that, I'm going to withhold your tax as well. And then suddenly Az (1:03:36) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:03:36) they're used to getting $55 an hour put into their bank account. And suddenly Az (1:03:40) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:03:41) you're asking them to take $38. Az (1:03:43) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:03:44) And they're going, You're ripping me off. And they're going, Az (1:03:45) How's that work? Mm. Andy Shaw (1:03:47) I'm not ripping you off. I'm just putting it where it's supposed to go by law. I'm not changing the overall figure you got. And they're just going, Screw you, I'm out of here, and off to another bricklayer to see if they Az (1:03:57) Yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (1:03:58) will employ me noncompliantly so I can get more money in my pocket because things are tight. So Az (1:04:05) Yeah. this is wild. Andy Shaw (1:04:07) But there's no blame here. There's Az (1:04:10) No. Andy Shaw (1:04:12) no blame here. So affects once again, it affects the individual brick layer, it affects the business owner, it affects the whole industry. So Az (1:04:16) Yep. Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:04:19) those sorts of things. So the average builder, manufacturer, whoever it might be, industry stakeholder, don't understand the increase in compliance cost and Just administrative cost in your business Az (1:04:35) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:04:36) that is impacting so many other areas. Most of the guys aren't realizing that, right? So it's a big challenge, and and it's not their job to know, but if you've expected your bricklayer to work for $2 a brick, let's just throw a figure out there. And I'm not saying that's the figure you need to work for, but it's two dollars. If suddenly Az (1:04:57) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:04:58) On that two if initially on that two dollars a brick you are making twenty percent profit, you are making forty cents a brick. Instantly Az (1:05:04) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:05:05) after you change to being a bit more compliant, if you've tried to negotiate the wages, administration goes on, you're trading insolvent. Az (1:05:12) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:05:12) Just like that. But you can't ask your builder for 20% more. They're gonna go, I'm not giving you another 40 cents a brick, that'll that'll break me. So the Az (1:05:23) well. Andy Shaw (1:05:24) in this is why we need to work together as an industry to understand Az (1:05:27) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:05:28) why we're so fragile. So that's what's impacting Az (1:05:31) This is no Andy Shaw (1:05:33) it. And and so it kind of rolls into. Az (1:05:37) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:05:37) There are some businesses out there that are making good profit, that are running Az (1:05:43) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:05:44) a profitable, compliant, sustainable business model. They have challenges, but they are Az (1:05:49) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:05:49) managing to do it. Right? Az (1:05:51) Yeah. Wow. Andy Shaw (1:05:54) And it it is happening. Right? Az (1:05:57) Yeah, yeah. And I think I think if you're gonna do it, I I I like it really does, Andy. As I said, I'm sitting back here listening. There's I think you actually said it really right. It's very fragile, isn't it? Running a bricklaying business, especially if you're running it that traditional way of how it's always been run, as you were talking about. I I just think that this is this is such an important podcast for the whole building community, let alone the bricklaying ones. I think from what I'm hearing, and maybe I'm making assumptions, and I'd really like to understand actually of the businesses that go and solve and all leave the industry, how many are actually bricklaying businesses? Because it seems like a damn hard business to run. And I can see that, you know, w we talk about them as being probably the most needed trade. And I think we talked prior to the pod that anyone who jumps into it and can do it well, I think you're gonna be the the richest trade out there. And I think that's where anyone who's interested should join the Brookies Network and set yourself up properly. I think you've got a great career ahead of you and I think you've got a great opportunity, but you've got to be very careful about how you do things. Andy. But yeah, it's Andy Shaw (1:07:04) You do, Az (1:07:06) very interesting, mate, this whole perspective of how it's run and and and you know how it's different from other trades and and the impact Andy Shaw (1:07:13) Mm. Az (1:07:13) that it can have. what about, you know, we're talking about all these people leaving the industry and things like that. And this is a a bit of a debate that's raging out there at the moment. What what do you think about immigration as a bit of a solution to filling the gap of of some of the tradies and and what are you seeing s is skilled migration out there at the moment actually playing a part to try and fill what's What's going on out there, Andy? Love to hear your perspective, mate. Andy Shaw (1:07:37) Yeah, so this is yeah, you're right. This is a really it's a touchy subject. So Az (1:07:42) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:07:43) let's let's be clear in bricklaying and construction that we have had immigrant workers for fifty or sixty years. When I was doing my apprenticeship, there was the Greek and Italian conquerors and Greek Italian bricklayers, there was the Az (1:07:58) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:07:58) pommy bricklayers that came in and the Irish, right? They all came Az (1:08:01) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:02) They all came over now and great tradesmen. They assimilated into our industry. Az (1:08:08) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:09) And there was there was lots of banter. That was probably racism, mixed up as banter and all sorts of other stuff in construction. That's it, that's what it was like. Az (1:08:18) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:19) But technically they were very good tradesmen that had come from a European building model. Right? Az (1:08:25) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:25) So they came out and they bought. High level skill in bricklaying and concreting for sure, right? Okay. Az (1:08:32) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Andy Shaw (1:08:34) So we've had it. The issue we have now is, and and back then that's where the majority of the young population were. We're in those European countries and they were coming to Australia. Az (1:08:46) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:46) Now the majority of the young population are coming from India, Pakistan, China, you know. Az (1:08:53) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:53) th those countries now they build very differently Az (1:08:57) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:08:57) than what we do. They do have face brickwork over there, but Az (1:09:00) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:09:01) generally what their brickwork over there is very, very different to what it is here. So their skill level is very different. So we do need migration 100% and we need those immigration to come in and become bricklayers. But like I said to you before the Az (1:09:17) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:09:17) majority of those people doing a 12 month Course are being done at an international college, they don't have the skill to add any value to the industry. So we actually Az (1:09:27) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:09:27) do need to change the model Az (1:09:30) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:09:30) of when they do come over here, they do have enough skill to enter the workforce and add value to the industry immediately or very, very quickly. Az (1:09:40) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:09:40) But also on a student visa. On a temporary working visa, the government still give them an ABN and they fold into the workforce working for less than minimum wages? Because they can. So Az (1:09:53) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Shaw (1:09:56) there's no regulation around that. So so Az (1:09:59) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:10:00) we have to be very, very careful how we do that. Do we bring people in that are of lesser skill, push out the skilled guys because they're coming in and working for below the cost? Az (1:10:12) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:10:12) And that that is happening in the industry. Az (1:10:14) And that's no good. That is no good. Andy Shaw (1:10:15) That's that's a that's an e that's an explosion. Az (1:10:18) Yeah, it is so you're seeing a bit that is no good because in the end, and and again, maybe I'm making assumptions and I'm sorry, Andy, and I and I I feel strongly about this topic as well. If you well, I feel strongly about this topic is what I should say. I shouldn't put words in your mouth. But if you're bringing in these lackluster bricklayers and tradies into the construction industry and they're just botting bottoming out everybody else. and and grabbing all the work. And I've actually heard in Victoria around painters. I talked to a really good painter down there and a great painter, he actually moved from Queensland down there. And he's gone down there and he said, I'm just getting priced out of the market. Just smashed. He's getting no work. But what he's getting is clean up work of all the crap that goes on out there. But what happens is people leave the industry. You get fed up, you leave the industry because you get an undercut, or your business becomes no longer sustainable because people are going for this cheaper stuff. And if And and sorry, I'm drawing a very long bow here, but if Andy Shaw (1:11:18) Mm. Az (1:11:19) if builders don't understand the value of a bricklayer and we're doing per brick costs, and now I'm trying to put all the stuff together that I've learned over the podcast with you and I'm not saying it's right, but then they're going on then you're gonna go for the cheaper bloke who is the immigrant, who doesn't have a background in the way we construct, does a worse job, but we have people leave the industry because they're fed up with that kind of shit, really. Andy Shaw (1:11:40) Yeah. So Az (1:11:40) I I I just think it's h a pretty horrible way to do immigration, to be honest, and skilled immigration. And I love, Andy Shaw (1:11:46) Yeah. Az (1:11:46) you know, what you said around how how you do it. Andy Shaw (1:11:48) And like I said, it brings down so in the residential sector where I'm saying the the Az (1:11:53) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:11:54) majority of those face bricks are being laid, Az (1:11:56) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:11:57) if there is a poor outcome with the end product because it hasn't been installed correctly or hasn't been installed to a high enough standard, then it it looks bad on bricklayers. But also, Az (1:12:08) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:12:09) as a building supervisor, that is a horrible situation for the builder because it Az (1:12:14) True. Andy Shaw (1:12:15) Ruins the relationship with the end client. There's Az (1:12:18) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:12:19) a remedial cost to the builder of either it's got to be pulled down and fixed or repaired or rendered to cover it Az (1:12:27) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:12:27) up. And it changes the look of what the property is supposed to be an overall cost, right? And Az (1:12:32) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:12:33) then ultimately, if if if the builders aren't getting a quality outcome that they desire from their from their bricklayers or the bricklayers that they can source, they will search to use an alternate product that doesn't have the headaches. Right? Az (1:12:50) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:12:51) Doesn't have the the the end the back end cost of Az (1:12:55) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:12:56) all of those defects and remedial things and that sort of stuff. So they end up changing the way they build because of the access to the right tradesmen. And if there's getting less and less quality tradesmen, then That's where it will go. But brick is a superior building product on on the external of a building. It really is. You know, and Az (1:13:15) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:13:17) there's going to be quite clients that want it. And you talked before that if you're going to enter into bricklaying, you have an amazing future if you learn your craft. If you Az (1:13:27) yeah. Andy Shaw (1:13:27) learn your craft and you know your skill, there is going to be builders out there that are doing not base little volume work that it's just smash them in as to the cheapest price. The client wants the quality brick, the designer brick, the design of brickwork Az (1:13:42) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:13:42) that's been put into it, that's been architectural done. They want quality tradesmen and they'll just have to pay for it. And Az (1:13:49) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:13:49) pay for the right tradesmen. So but to do that You have to be you have to be able to run a profitable business. And that means you need to know what it costs you to run your business legally, compliantly, what your overall average productivity Az (1:14:07) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:14:08) input of bricks in on every type of project so you can quote them, supply and install them, give them an overall package, but have a workforce. that can deliver that outcome for the client and then you have value to the market. Az (1:14:22) Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you Andy Shaw (1:14:25) Yeah. Az (1:14:25) as you're saying sustainable business this is why I'm really passionate about Brickies tr joining the the Brickies network, bricklaying Andy Shaw (1:14:32) Hmm. Az (1:14:32) businesses. I think we need we need more of that. If we I mean yeah, I'm looking at the because we're you know, we look at the of course we we look at all sorts of trades, but we look at the residential construction industry for builders, you know, we're called the good builder. But if there was someone in the the same space in the home building space, I'd be as passionate about that too. I think people need people like you and and communities like you, hey Andy, to get it right. You're completely right. That is where if if you can set up your business right, like you said, I think you just have the best opportunity going forward. But you've got to know how to do your craft, you've got to know how to have your business set up properly. And you're gonna be fine. Andy Shaw (1:15:10) Yeah. Yeah, so so you said all you pitch yourself, you know, whatever. So Az (1:15:17) Yeah, go. Andy Shaw (1:15:18) mo I've I've written a book called The Business of Bricklaying and How the Industry Sets You Up Az (1:15:24) Well Andy Shaw (1:15:24) to Fail if you don't understand it. And it's getting published at the moment, it'll be released in a month or two. it's taken me Az (1:15:31) Love it. Andy Shaw (1:15:31) two years to write it. It's actually probably been five years in the head, but we Az (1:15:35) Wow. Andy Shaw (1:15:35) explain how This works for you as a business owner. And if you're not making, if you're not got good cash flow, if you're not making a profit over the long term, if you haven't stored equity into your business and your business isn't growing, well then you can't afford staff and you can't service your clients. It's a big picture. And if you don't understand that as a business owner, and plan to focus on all of those individual areas so your business can deliver. what it needs to to the construction industry, then you may as Az (1:16:10) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:16:10) well close the door and go and work for someone else. There's no point in running a business at a loss and basically doing you're doing a job for a client at your own expense. And whether that's an Az (1:16:24) Yeah. Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:16:25) expense of your taking on a tax debt, whether it means that you're taking on risk not paying your workers correctly because you're not compliant, whether you're taking on the risk of not in training workers, There's just no point to it, but the Az (1:16:37) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:16:37) system set up for you to fail if you don't see it. Az (1:16:41) Yeah. a hundred I I do realize that now. And this is why I keep saying this podcast is so important. I've never, you know, we look at a lot of things, but I I haven't understood much about the way bricklaying businesses are are set up, how they operate with a builder and things like that. And as you said, it is it is very, very unique the way that they are. And and you can see all the risk points and stuff like that. Andy Shaw (1:17:08) Mm. Az (1:17:08) Now to that point, actually, Andy, how important do you then think it it is to ensure that you know, you've got good employment, you've got all these good procedures, you've got a good business set up if you're gonna save the industry. Not save the industry, but you know, bring more people into it. Do you think that is the most critical thing we need to do before even we kind of start talking about apprenticeship so they've got a good place to come into? Is that where you kind of sit? Or is it a a juggling act Andy Shaw (1:17:35) Yeah, that Az (1:17:36) between the two, Andy, a little bit? Because I know you've got the apprenticeship program too, mate. How how how are we going to turn this around? Andy Shaw (1:17:43) Aaron, you're spot on. It's actually saved the industry. We've got to that point. I believe we're Az (1:17:48) We are, Andy Shaw (1:17:49) we're not there yet, but we're right on a precipice of Az (1:17:53) I reckon. Andy Shaw (1:17:54) bricklaying in Australia will become a bespoke trade if we don't watch it. But it's it's that close. So I believe we are trying to fix the problem from the wrong end. Don't worry about the apprenticeship. Don't worry about getting more apprentices on. Don't worry about Az (1:18:10) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:18:11) Don't worry about that skill level or anything like that at this stage. That that does come. I'm not saying it's not it doesn't need to come. But if we look at bricklayers of those 17 to 19,000 bricklayers in Australia, there might be true not the ones that are ABN contractors that had their own Australian business number, but the ones that are truly a principal bricklaying contractor that employed teams of bricklayers. Az (1:18:37) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:18:37) There might only be four or five thousand of those, genuine ones in Australia. And if those got they're the ones we're losing more than anyone else in the industry. Because and Az (1:18:52) wow. Andy Shaw (1:18:53) they're the ones that have the profound knowledge. They're the ones that are forty to fifty. They have the profound industry knowledge. They have they have the inclination and the will to run a business. Az (1:19:05) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:19:06) They might be the ones that have capital to run a business as well. But if they Az (1:19:11) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:19:12) can't do that in a model that's profitable, sustainable, and compliant and afford to train new staff for the future and new tradesmen for this industry, then let's just close the industry down because we will not. Have anyone into the future because they're just not going to do it. If you're expecting those guys to retire in their 50s that are running bricklaying businesses and the other guys to step up, if they don't have enough capital to start the business, if they don't learn how to be a business owner, they get wiped out very, very quickly. They grow on cash flow without profit. And you will have seen this and probably spoken to many tradesmen over the years, that they will Az (1:19:55) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:19:56) talk to you and go. I scaled my business up to having 10 guys working for me, and I didn't make any more money than when I had two guys working for me because Az (1:20:05) Yep. Andy Shaw (1:20:06) all they did was grow on cash flow. There was no profit, and then they spent the next five years clawing that debt back in personally. But at a business size of three guys working for you, you haven't got the economies of scale to cover the overheads and the administration that it costs to run a business these days and make a problem. profit to pour back into that business to make sure that it sustains for the future. It's it's maths. Quoting your jobs, accepting your price is not a feeling. There's an ad going around. It's not a feeling, it's maths. But if Az (1:20:36) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:20:36) you're just accepting it because everyone else is accepting it and no one's making a profit. Az (1:20:41) Yeah. You know what, Andy, you talked about another thing, mate, that we talk about with other like big associations like the HIA, QBCC up here and and master builders. All of them say the same thing that you said, which was very interesting. And this is, mate, you have such an amazing grasp of the industry and and I think the brick-laying industry, of course, but the entire construction industry. You said something around The loss of people and the loss of the 40, the 50 year olds, the guys that are gonna leave. I truly believe that's our biggest threat as well. And and you know what? I love what you've done, Andy, in staying in the industry because you're one of those blokes. You know what I mean? You've been through it all for 35 years. It's it's very lucky. You seem like a very business savvy type guy in terms of, you know, wanting to help the industry and where you see the vision for the industry. You seem very passionate about it. But if we lose blokes like you and that, what have we got left? No one else knows how to do what you do 'cause you've been through it. And and when you said that I was I was You know, the w what you do at the Brickies Network and setting up sustainable businesses so people can bring people on and then, you know, get them set up, I think is, yeah, again, the most critical thing that we need for the industry, not just in Brick Lane, but across the entire industry. I wish there was a body like you for nearly every trade and builder. I think they're Andy Shaw (1:22:00) Yeah. Az (1:22:00) what you're doing is super cool and your understanding and how you talk about it is second to none. Andy Shaw (1:22:06) Yeah. Az (1:22:06) I've I've learnt so much on this plot as well, Andy. So yeah, it's very, very interesting. what you're doing and everything. But we'll and we'll Andy Shaw (1:22:12) No, great. Az (1:22:13) put all the links and everything below for everyone to go there. you know we're called the good builder. What do you actually think makes a good builder or a good bricklayer? Like you can you can sort of answer this the way you want, Andy. think you're a really interesting guy. Andy Shaw (1:22:27) Yeah. So coming from that background of being in construction all those years, but seeing both sides of it, what I believe is a good builder is the number one thing a builder needs to be is really well organized and have experienced supervisors running their jobs. Right. So and what I mean by that is everything scheduled so it's seamless. And ready to go for the next trade. And then on top of that, building the relationships with all of their trades based on quality, professionalism, reliability, and everyone making a profit. It's win, win, win all the way through. They are the most successful and best builders I've ever seen. That's what I believe makes a good builder. Az (1:23:21) Mate, this has been like I I should stop saying this, but this has been one of the most interesting podcasts. As I said, we've done over the 340. You've brought up several, several things across this whole pod that no one has. One thing, the the last thing I want to say is I loved your answer then, and I loved your answer around win-win-win. You know, no one's ever said that on the podcast, Andy. And I I find that really interesting. Because one of the things we wanted to do at the Good Builder and and while we've got people like you on, we look at the entire industry and while we're called the Good Builder and we're for home builders and we're for everyone really, but what we actually meant was that, you know, part or part of the reason why we started the Good Builder was to educate builders that we are a team. It's not just the builder and the trades and the suppliers. We're all a team. We've got to work together in partnership. And when you do is when we're most powerful. And that is exactly when you win. And if you're looking after your trades and subbies and you're making sure they win too, that is when you're going to keep good businesses on as well. I think your answer was exactly what the industry needed to hear right now, Andy. And I think it's at this critical point, like you said, we are at a critical point in this industry where you look at it across the board, not just bricklayers. All sorts of apprentices are falling over. All sorts of people aren't entering the industry. And I truly believe part of it comes back to that culture of win-win-win for everybody. And if we have more of that mindset within, I know you said more of that in more different stuff in your answer, and there was more to your answer. But highlighting that bit, I think if we all started to think like this, work like this, and build a culture in the industry like this, which you've done at Bricky's Network. We're gonna have people lasting longer in this industry and better people coming in. Like I thought, mate, you're a fascinating bloke. I think you like I almost want you to start the the good builder network, you know, and doing Andy Shaw (1:25:17) Ha ha ha. Az (1:25:17) what you're doing for the Brickies network for the builders. I think what you're doing is amazing, mate, and your understanding of it. We probably haven't had someone that is sitting in an industry body if you don't mind me calling you and I know you're a brickie as well and a proud one and you've been through that, but has been able to explain what has gone on so clearly within the industry and for businesses within it. And it's because you've been part of it and that's why we don't want to lose people like you, mate. Like this has been so cool. Andy Shaw (1:25:45) No, thank you, Aaron. Az (1:25:47) it has been, Andy, hey, like I don't know, mate, like I think we We we do a few of these pods and I think we talk very surface level of what's going on in the industry. You've drove and I said we could probably go longer, but we will do part two, I promise you, mate, and and we will. Andy Shaw (1:26:00) Yeah. Not a will. Not Az (1:26:03) But you've gone so deep within it. And I know you can go deeper, but within this pod, I feel like there's, you know, a hundred answers for builders out there and and brickies out there to help run their businesses better, which is what we're all about. I can't thank you enough, mate. Your passion shines through away. Andy Shaw (1:26:21) No. No worries at all, mate. If I can just say at the end that Az (1:26:25) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:26:25) running an industry body and a r industry association for the advocacy side of it, a lot of people don't think that there's there's a benefit in advocacy. But there Az (1:26:36) Yeah. Andy Shaw (1:26:36) there actually really is. There needs to be a representative body for your industry to go to government, training organizations, industry associations. and express to them what's happening boots on the ground. But when you're in an industry that is squeezed tight margin like BrickLane is, it can Az (1:26:55) Mm. Andy Shaw (1:26:55) feel like it's an expense that there's no direct transactional benefit as in being in a member of an association. Our association has just changed its membership model to a buying group model where we still do all the advocacy and all of the documentation and all the other things in the back end. But give direct savings to our members. That costs $30 a month or $300 a year, and your first six months is free. You can save thousands of dollars on your insurances, you can get discounts at all your tool suppliers. You can buy brick saws cheaper than anywhere else around Australia, guaranteed. All of the everyday uses, and we're working on more product pricing benefits for collective purchasing. for bricklayers because we don't do that. So if anyone's a bricklayer out there and doesn't think there's a benefit of being a of the association, we actually just want to give you a thousand dollars worth of benefits without you even paying a penny first to be a member so we can go out and support you so you can make more money. Az (1:27:56) I love it. Mate, we'll make sure that we put that right out in front as well. I think that's a again. I shouldn't say this, but there's not a lot of industry bodies that even go to that length. You know, that buying group, I think, again helps the profitability. You're actually doing physical stuff in the real world that helps them on the boots on the ground every single day. Mate, we're gonna spruit that till the cows come home. I'm gonna put this on social clips and put it all on there. So is that one of the Andy Shaw (1:28:23) I'd appreciate I appreciate that, mate. That'd be great. Az (1:28:26) no worries. No, no, no. This is mate, we'll put it out in the emails and everything. I think this is critical and I'm s we might even touch on this in the second pod, but very quickly, that's something that's your members see of of great benefit, the buying group, obviously, because that is a huge Andy Shaw (1:28:40) That's that's Az (1:28:41) help. Andy Shaw (1:28:41) that's the direct benefit. You can join your first six months is free. We want you to be able to save more in everyday expenses than your membership cost to be a member of the association. That way you win, we win, the industry wins. I'm a it's my passion is that win-win-win. So Az (1:29:01) There you go. Andy Shaw (1:29:02) we have to give that to guys. It's all about value to who you're representing. Az (1:29:06) Fire out. Mate, I'll tell you what, Andy. We are doing number two. we're gonna do the we've got to do podcast two. We'll go deep on it. This has been one of I think, as I said, the most logical, the deepest. I think the most, I don't even know if functional is the right word, but the most functional podcast for an industry. I think you've talked about things like nobody else has talked about at a level that not many people can talk about it either because you've come from it. And you see the hundreds of people or thousands of bricklang businesses that are part of the Brickies network and and that you talk to, you know, every week, every year, every day. I think it's been absolutely fascinating, mate. And I And I I again I take my hat off to not only, you know, the way you've set up this foundation, the education you provide, but secondly, that you really do live and breathe that win-win-win mentality with the buying group and the other benefits that you provide at the British Network, mate. That is phenomenal. A lot of people There's one thing actually, and I I'll end it with this. I think we're dropping a podcast very shortly with James Drever, who is the of QA Build and Gem Life. They build a lot of the retirement villages and things like that. And he said to me, the people you want to be around and the people that the good builder needs to be around, and this is why we we have people like you around us. have to be have to walk the walk, but they have to talk the talk. And he said, that is a, you know, dangerous man in the in terms of a good way of saying dangerous. There's someone that can get the job done and people that you want to be around. And I'll tell you what, after him saying that, you're one of the first blokes, even though we've just met that I've kind of gone, you walk the walk and you talk the talk. And I love it. Andy Shaw (1:30:47) Thanks, mate. That's that's nice compliment, thank you. Az (1:30:49) It's for real though, Andy. I love it, mate. Like it it pumps me up. It energizes me when I meet people like you. Like James, like the that that gentleman there. He's like that. He walks the walk. He talks the talk. And this is the people we want the good builder to be around. This is the st these are the people that we want our community to be introduced to and to do business with or align with because this is how we're going to move this industry forward is with people like you. So mate, once again, thank you so much. for your time here. I'm sorry I had to cut it short. We will do part two on this, Andy, 100%. Andy Shaw (1:31:22) We certainly will. Az (1:31:23) But mate, thank you so much for your time. Andy Shaw (1:31:26) No, all Thanks, Aaron. Cheers.