Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Brendan Jones & Si Hart about their choice of Terminus (3/4)

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Talks to Brendan Jones & Si Hart about their choice of Terminus (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:43
  If that doctor who commentary podcast, we're here for episode,
• 0:47
  3 of terminus, the most exciting Doctor, Who Adventure that I
• 0:51
  have ever spoken about on the hamster.
• 0:54
  I'm here with Joe say hello, Joe.
• 0:56
  Hello, Joe. And I'm here with my dr.
• 1:00
  Brendan hello. Hello, Professor Sterling, we
• 1:06
  are here to talk about terminus About how we could do anything.
• 1:18
  Yes, but I think I've given up before instead, that is well
• 1:23
  above the standard way of getting of enthusiasm.
• 1:26
  At least that we are getting on screen at the moment.
• 1:33
  So yes, so far, so lots of things have happened, but I'm
• 1:38
  not entirely sure what the hell right now, because I've been
• 1:40
  pissing distracting, and even though I have one, yes, or
• 1:43
  twice. Mr. Has been infected.
• 1:46
  With Lazarus disease, Tegan and turlough are stuck in some
• 1:51
  ducting still, it's quite nicely shot, and it's nice and green,
• 1:55
  and quite a spheric. The doctor and Corey are walking
• 1:59
  around and are now in the middle of a fight.
• 2:03
  You know, I've we had the twist dropped yet that Terminus is the
• 2:07
  center of the universe. Yes, that was mid last episode
• 2:10
  and we talked all over it. So is that like our first hint
• 2:13
  then that this was the, where the big bang started?
• 2:16
  Because it's right in the center of the universe.
• 2:18
  Yeah, yes. Mmm.
• 2:21
  It's a big concept and I'll say this go back to the first event.
• 2:26
  Again, this era season 20 crowded plane.
• 2:32
  It's the big bang. Lots of bad things going off as
• 2:38
  well. Yes yep, okay I'm excited.
• 2:42
  Wood on top of it all, you know. Yeah.
• 2:46
  But you know I find 20 little Bland but I will say this, there
• 2:51
  is a usually, a very strong idea at the heart of most of the
• 2:55
  stories. Yes, they don't always come off.
• 3:00
  I'm Arc of infinity. There's a really good idea about
• 3:05
  the tragedy of Omega, but it doesn't quite come off because
• 3:10
  they're too concerned with the sofas.
• 3:13
  I mean, snake dance. Yeah, snake dolls is one
• 3:18
  brilliant idea after another Hazard.
• 3:20
  Yep. That's what an undead is clever.
• 3:22
  And big idea. Again, I'm travel and
• 3:27
  immortality Enlightenment, just full of Brilliance and Great
• 3:33
  ships and great imagery and Brilliant performances and the
• 3:38
  Kings demons. I think he is also yes, it also
• 3:43
  fair and then it stops But I didn't disturb it said when we
• 3:50
  yes sorry go Brandon no. I was just going to say with the
• 3:56
  Kings David's. I said, during flight through
• 3:58
  entirety feels like there should be a third episode with a
• 4:01
  masters like our, but I have this other plan.
• 4:03
  Let's go to London and assassinate the real key, you
• 4:05
  know. It just feels like it's building
• 4:08
  up to a climax, that never happen.
• 4:10
  So it just gets to 50 minutes and sit on that will do what a
• 4:14
  fucking shit that story. We'd be done by now.
• 4:18
  But I'll tell you what, before we jump into episode 3, I just
• 4:23
  want to say one thing, right? If for some insane reason, you
• 4:27
  have never heard an episode of life or entirety.
• 4:29
  And I very much doubt anyone of this listenership handsome make
• 4:34
  Black Orchid, your first episode you're here, Brendan give the
• 4:41
  most intriguing reading of that story I've ever heard.
• 4:50
  I promise I wasn't doing the channel lead a conspiracy wall
• 4:53
  during it. I I sound like I am but I
• 4:59
  freaking love that. I'm sorry.
• 5:00
  I thought everyone was gonna love it and there you were.
• 5:04
  This is my least favorite doctor.
• 5:06
  She is brilliant. And it still is even after the
• 5:13
  battle of rent, score of colors. So there you go.
• 5:16
  Wow, something something. Okay, well now we can step into
• 5:22
  website for it. Now I've now you can have one in
• 5:24
  that direction, it's so fun to use thing.
• 5:27
  Sarah Sutton, I will count to saying in five, four, three,
• 5:36
  two, one. Let's go.
• 5:41
  What about that idea? That idea that, what was it?
• 5:44
  Ditching the fuel from Terminus? Created the universe.
• 5:48
  Is that right? Yep.
• 5:51
  Yes. Well, that's something that's
• 5:52
  coming up. I think.
• 5:53
  And I think in this episode yeah, it is that a bit mundane
• 5:59
  of an explanation or is that just very clever?
• 6:04
  Well, it's I no idea. Hmm, you know, it's it's sort of
• 6:11
  what are they get scrubbed from City of death?
• 6:13
  But city of death, explores, the same kind of thing of, you know,
• 6:15
  human life wouldn't exist. If this spaceship hadn't
• 6:17
  exploded over row. You know, and it's something
• 6:23
  sci-fi was really exploring in the 70s and 80s.
• 6:26
  It's kind of like 2001 goes in the opposite direction.
• 6:30
  All of you know alien life is something huge and unknowable
• 6:34
  whereas you know a lot of 70s and 80s sci-fi was what if this
• 6:37
  massive thing happened because this very simple thing happened.
• 6:43
  You know you get something like Silent Running which has a huge
• 6:46
  concept of forests in space and it all comes down to one
• 6:49
  Gardener wants to keep them alive.
• 6:51
  I've hmm. And that's a beautiful film
• 6:57
  that's gorgeous. Are you just mentioned the word
• 7:00
  sealian there? Brendan.
• 7:03
  Now, please tell me if this is true or knocks.
• 7:05
  I'm not sure if it is. Well, their sets from Alien used
• 7:08
  in this story. They were first areas Gates.
• 7:15
  All right, yet? No, no, you're absolutely right.
• 7:19
  I'm not sure about this story but it wouldn't surprise me if
• 7:24
  they will were because, yeah, and sets from Alien later, turn
• 7:27
  up in Red Dwarf. Yeah, it's all that metal.
• 7:30
  Paneling isn't it? That is what makes spaceship
• 7:33
  corridors. It's used Joe.
• 7:35
  We talked about in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
• 7:38
  Galaxy, the Bogan ship is made out of those.
• 7:41
  Both Applause sex. Hey, so it's that sort of metal
• 7:45
  pelleting kind of look He do have the return of the radiator.
• 7:52
  Grilles were were a big feature of season, 17 and 18, design and
• 7:57
  back for their last appearance in a pile of rubble.
• 8:02
  I just think that entire set there that they were in it was
• 8:05
  so Stark and lacking in any kind of it.
• 8:09
  That's one point where I think don't you just looks desperately
• 8:12
  cheap it looks like they're just can't afford to fill the space.
• 8:16
  Mmm. Yeah it's it's unfortunate
• 8:19
  because Steven Gallagher wanted there to be sort of tarpaulins
• 8:23
  hanging everywhere and they do have them as you can see here
• 8:26
  but there are bit too neat, hmm. Yeah, it's not Gns.
• 8:32
  Yeah. Yeah it's something that g
• 8:34
  Harper will pick up on an Army of Ghosts.
• 8:36
  When all those top Orleans are always kind of swaying slightly
• 8:40
  and if you have that little bit of movement, it elevates things.
• 8:46
  Now, he is all they're putting on a veneer uniform.
• 8:53
  The veneer costumes are another example of the designers, not
• 8:58
  quite understanding, the requirements of the Tori.
• 9:03
  So that fight scene. We just had bridging episode 3
• 9:08
  and 4, the The designer whose Name Escapes Me.
• 9:14
  Not, not D, but Peter Pegram. Who designed the veneer costumes
• 9:20
  basically turned up on set and went all you want to fight in
• 9:23
  these. I didn't know you wanted to
• 9:26
  fight in these. We're going to have to make you
• 9:29
  a whole new version so that you can fight in them.
• 9:34
  And so that's why some of them look really fitted.
• 9:36
  And some of them are kind of saggy cuz the ones that are
• 9:37
  saggier the fighting ones. And they just pretty.
• 9:39
  She's stuck on with velcro to a bodysuit and now behind Sarah
• 9:44
  Sutton. At this point, I'm pretty sure
• 9:45
  that's Kathy Burke. Oh, I'm gonna keep my eye out.
• 9:48
  So, what are you saying? Burden?
• 9:49
  The basically nobody in the production team is talking to
• 9:52
  each other. It's really weird because like,
• 9:57
  Mary Ridge has records of of saying to Peter Pegram.
• 10:02
  Okay, we're going to need this. I want to have the costumes in
• 10:06
  rehearsal for the fight scenes. Yeah.
• 10:10
  Like, so she's pretty clear about the requirements and also
• 10:14
  it with the BBC stuff. It is, the designers
• 10:19
  responsibility to read the script and go.
• 10:21
  Okay, it needs to do this. Here, it needs to Do this there
• 10:24
  so that the director doesn't have to tell them everything and
• 10:26
  given that Peter and D were both really experienced on the
• 10:29
  program. It's hard to understand what
• 10:33
  went wrong here. It's even more interesting
• 10:36
  because then the next story in Enlightenment it just feels like
• 10:39
  everybody's in sync and they add know exactly.
• 10:43
  The look they're going for in that story and it, you know, it
• 10:46
  is so stylish. Yeah, but I wonder if that's
• 10:49
  because they're on safer ground with Historical sitting in space
• 10:55
  rather than a space space setting and so the designers are
• 11:01
  instantly more old. What I can look at a native
• 11:03
  audience, aging ship, I can find out what that was like what the
• 11:06
  crew would have worn. That's all historical.
• 11:08
  We're far more comfortable, but as soon as you're on a
• 11:11
  spaceship, someone's got to design, spaceship corridors and
• 11:16
  and things like this and it's it goes back to the old thing.
• 11:18
  That Michael O'Brien says, for robots of death was that wide
• 11:22
  Need to do it like it's the future, why can't we do it?
• 11:25
  Like it's a stylish Place set in in the past with art deco.
• 11:32
  Why why does this have to be grimy space?
• 11:35
  Corridors why can't it be something else?
• 11:37
  Because no one's for outside of its science fiction.
• 11:42
  Its drab gray, corridors You say drab gray corridors.
• 11:48
  There was a sequence, just there, where khari in the doctor
• 11:52
  would basically against a black drape with just a tiny Spotlight
• 11:55
  on about. It's very kind of effective in
• 11:58
  the how it's how it's lit but it's basically no set there at
• 12:02
  all. And I got a question for both of
• 12:04
  you again. Ashley because I just saw the
• 12:06
  fellow put the Hydra melt down inside of his.
• 12:08
  Yeah, stoom. And I'm going to fire this up,
• 12:11
  Brendan first. And that is, you know, you've
• 12:14
  got these. Poor people are their prisoners
• 12:16
  are Whatever they are running this Sweatshop on Terminus
• 12:22
  sending these people through. But on top of that, they're all
• 12:25
  addicted to drugs as well, which is what keeps them going to
• 12:29
  cynical is very cynical, isn't it?
• 12:35
  Yes. But you know I think it's it is
• 12:37
  part of Gallagher, making a commentary and I was sort of
• 12:42
  think watching this thinking of similarities between this and
• 12:45
  worry is gate. And you've got, you've got
• 12:48
  people trapped in systems in history.
• 12:52
  You know, the crew in worry is gate, don't really want to be
• 12:55
  there, you know? And and they're there because
• 12:58
  this is their job and that's what they do and no one's
• 13:01
  thinking about Why they're doing what they're doing?
• 13:03
  Whereas here there there, because they're dependent on
• 13:08
  this drug Hydra Mel. By the way, derives from I think
• 13:13
  Greek words for, huh? Need water?
• 13:16
  Wow. And so it's their honey is
• 13:18
  there, huh? Need Water of Life.
• 13:20
  What is it says The Bitter Sweet Taste Of Life Of Life.
• 13:25
  Yeah, some of us call that a seat I'm sorry, there's some,
• 13:37
  there's no women for near. I'm just saying I said that
• 13:46
  Justice. We see Iraq's codpiece.
• 13:50
  But that, that that Bittersweet Taste Of Life seem was one of
• 13:55
  the scenes on the pickup day. So Tim Monroe was called in for
• 13:58
  that one, C and the episode before that.
• 14:02
  At the bit where Sarah certain tears off the read out and says,
• 14:05
  we need to go into parties. That was her only seen on the
• 14:08
  pickup date. She had to come in to deliver
• 14:11
  one line and it would have existed in wide shot.
• 14:18
  Yeah, it's so it's so ridiculous.
• 14:23
  I do think the tufte cloaks look ridiculous, but, but they do at
• 14:28
  least serve a purpose here when we when we discover Huh.
• 14:32
  Oh there's escaped but it is it is a bunch of sort of very
• 14:37
  humilis men in a nasty situation in a pretty miserable place.
• 14:45
  Like he's very this is like Doctor Who without hope isn't
• 14:50
  it? Yeah.
• 14:53
  It's it's like it's like Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS.
• 14:56
  You know, you've got a bunch of unlikable people it out yet.
• 15:00
  It's you've got this bunch of unlikable people.
• 15:03
  And it's like, why do I care? It's exactly.
• 15:08
  I'm afraid. You can't my care about ball.
• 15:11
  Yeah, I think that might be why. None of this registered with me
• 15:15
  in my memory from watching it as a child, because there's very
• 15:20
  little Or and intelligent seven-year-old to get their head
• 15:25
  around in this story compared to anything else in this season.
• 15:33
  We, what I really like is the fact that this sort of horrible
• 15:36
  Circuit of misery is broken by person, Nyssa being kind and
• 15:44
  saying I will simulate that drug for you.
• 15:47
  I will help cure the lasers. You know, this system can work,
• 15:52
  but they're also bloody nasty. No one's it.
• 15:56
  And there's that line again at the end when after the doctors
• 16:02
  freed, the guy. And the someone says don't say
• 16:07
  oh well how can we guarantee that the gum will help us
• 16:10
  decide? Well we could just try asking
• 16:12
  him. Yeah you know and it's that that
• 16:15
  kindness actually is going to solve all of these problems.
• 16:22
  Do you prefer do you prefer your dog to to have a bit more sort
• 16:26
  of humor and hope though? Brendan Um look I do and even
• 16:32
  yeah, two stories that are sort of seen as the bleakest stories
• 16:36
  of this era, say resurrection of the Daleks and caves of
• 16:39
  androzani. They've got jokes.
• 16:43
  And, you know, they've got deliberate jokes and they've got
• 16:46
  just funny little asides. And finally, little moments.
• 16:49
  And yeah, I think possibly part of that here is the bad time.
• 16:55
  The cast were having means that when you do have subtle jokes,
• 17:00
  like with Val Garden, Iraq's rivalry.
• 17:03
  There's some really funny stuff in there but the actors I think
• 17:07
  the actors are possibly missing it because obviously with acting
• 17:11
  you conjure up, new emotions. But if you're already tense, it
• 17:15
  makes your job harder. Yeah.
• 17:18
  I'm-i'm-i'm in rehearsals at the moment for a stage play and we
• 17:26
  just did our first rehearsal, the big, emotional Kruk scene.
• 17:30
  And there's a bit where I my characters trying to defuse a
• 17:33
  situation and one of the other characters were rounds on him
• 17:36
  and she sort of walks towards him telling him where to go
• 17:40
  basically. And because we've been having
• 17:42
  such a good time, Time I almost laughed in her face in the first
• 17:48
  reading of it and the thing that stopped me was loaded oh she's
• 17:52
  pretty get a really good performance.
• 17:53
  Don't throw off But you know that that the figures I just
• 17:59
  sort of looked at my feet that's like okay no this is appropriate
• 18:01
  for carry the but also I don't want to call Sinners fast.
• 18:06
  Are you trying to suggest that the opposite is happening here?
• 18:08
  Everyone's having such a miserable time making this
• 18:10
  thing. Nobody can raise that smile.
• 18:13
  Yeah. That's spilling over into the
• 18:15
  performances. It's entirely possible.
• 18:17
  As we know suddenly. Tim Monroe was in crude from the
• 18:22
  pit and gave a fantastic comic performance in that and he he
• 18:29
  he's he's very serious and very good but he's very serious.
• 18:35
  So I've got the chops to do it. As always have to be the case is
• 18:40
  look at nightmare of Eden which had a, by all accounts,
• 18:43
  horrendous production, everyone's given very funny
• 18:47
  performances in that, you know. It might not be able to good
• 18:50
  time to look like they are but maybe the Caster United in
• 18:54
  adversity in that one and maybe here, there's just no cohesion
• 18:58
  between everyone. Yeah.
• 19:02
  Yeah, I'd agree with you there, you know, especially the story
• 19:04
  about how the, how Tom basically, let Alan Brock
• 19:07
  probably have it and if everyone else was feeling the same way,
• 19:10
  they properly, get him, get him. Someone just said it is here,
• 19:21
  Peter Davison isn't that kind of leading man know either?
• 19:25
  So yeah. Yeah.
• 19:28
  Yeah, by all reports kind of professional.
• 19:32
  Keep the show going. It's all going to be fine.
• 19:36
  Mmm. Yeah, by all reports, what
• 19:38
  frustration? He showed was not directed
• 19:41
  towards any one. Person aside from that, one
• 19:43
  runny in with John nathan-turner, it was more
• 19:46
  frustration at the situation. Yeah, you know, give this a bit
• 19:51
  of a mess. Colin Baker.
• 19:55
  Yeah, yes. Right in this store again, some
• 19:58
  sort of a really sort of nasty regime like this think
• 20:01
  Adventures of are also, you know, he give this a bill.
• 20:04
  Well, he's totally give it some color as well.
• 20:07
  And that is different. That line, you know?
• 20:10
  This is the end of the universe. Yeah.
• 20:15
  That's also one of the things that's working against the
• 20:21
  atmosphere, the hot, or time is Roger limbs score which isn't
• 20:25
  helping either, and it makes it sound dreary on top of
• 20:29
  everything else. And I'm a big fan of the radio,
• 20:31
  van it Workshop schools in this era, but Rocky limb before he
• 20:36
  gets to androzani is the lower tier of the composer's at this
• 20:40
  time. Yeah, when I was watching
• 20:44
  yesterday, I was trying to figure out, you know, what's
• 20:46
  little lacking here and what it feels like to me.
• 20:50
  Is that at this point, Roger, limb is only using like one
• 20:55
  sound of the synthesized. Yeah.
• 20:59
  Whereas you know, someone like Patty Kingsland or Peter.
• 21:02
  How will use multiple sounds multiple instruments in their
• 21:07
  synthesizers and so there's just there's not the texture to it.
• 21:12
  No. I'm compare this to to what
• 21:14
  Peter Howell is doing in snake. Dance, which is really.
• 21:17
  Yeah, interesting. And Erie and Atmospheric, but
• 21:22
  also tuneful at the same time, compare it to the insane rock
• 21:27
  music of Mordred Undead wishes. Yeah, it might be a little bit
• 21:32
  over the top, but boy, it's got some life to it.
• 21:34
  It's memorable. Yeah, I freaking love modern
• 21:40
  Undead. I love the driving.
• 21:42
  Music. Ha ha ha.
• 21:51
  I made sure, I made sure when I was editing that episode as soon
• 21:54
  as he said that driving music, I put in a few bars but he's like,
• 21:57
  I bet I love more than anything. Mysterious theme, so that he
• 22:21
  appears. But, as Brenda said, it's all
• 22:24
  one sound. And it's all very OneNote, and
• 22:26
  it's not adding much to what, what's going on?
• 22:30
  Well, then, will you allow me to, you know, I think from the
• 22:32
  future, Colin Baker, I'm bringing him in, and I'm going
• 22:35
  to pull something from the past Dudley Simpson, who I think that
• 22:40
  that would work brilliantly. No.
• 22:46
  Yes. Especially you know Dudley seems
• 22:48
  an energy is Blake 7 mode. Yeah.
• 22:51
  That would Big Space Opera. He could do.
• 22:53
  He could score this nicely. Yeah, I'm just thinking Some
• 22:58
  synth. Horns would be lovely in here
• 23:01
  because you know, I've got this isn't Norse idea and we bring in
• 23:05
  sort of Norse sounding kind of things, the way carry Blyton
• 23:10
  does with silurians. Like I know because, ooh isn't
• 23:14
  For everyone but the reasoning behind that of you know he's
• 23:21
  like it's not so much a kazoo as like early human instruments and
• 23:26
  it's like okay no I get that now.
• 23:30
  But yeah, it's just no pun intended, so one note.
• 23:35
  Yeah, really one though. Yeah.
• 23:38
  And it's so it's not just here are some more people because
• 23:41
  when Harper gets hold of him and he says right this is what I
• 23:44
  want the rattlesnake and this and that he's really capable.
• 23:48
  Yeah. And maybe it's the directors are
• 23:50
  not telling him what they want. So he's just doing generic
• 23:55
  scoring. That isn't so, because he's
• 23:57
  worked with Ron Jones so far. And John black and Mary Ridge.
• 24:07
  None of whom are the most dynamic or controlling of that
• 24:10
  side of things. So maybe he hasn't got a lot to
• 24:14
  work with. Whereas, some of the other
• 24:16
  directors are working with Fiona coming or Peter grimwade.
• 24:19
  They've got someone who will give them Direction in that way
• 24:23
  as well. That's a really good point
• 24:27
  because G Harper, as you say, was notable for the time of he
• 24:34
  would involve himself in all aspects where a some directors
• 24:37
  would just go, okay, you're off doing that.
• 24:39
  That's your thing. I'm going to focus on the actors
• 24:41
  over here and you know I'm thinking someone like Peter
• 24:44
  Moffat and I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, but it's
• 24:48
  kind of like Peter Moffitt was concerned about getting the best
• 24:50
  performance from the actors and other stuff.
• 24:52
  He didn't particularly care about And there are benefits to
• 24:56
  that approach, and there are Elisabeth sladen, rolling down a
• 25:01
  hill to that approach. Do you know what the irony is?
• 25:06
  They're Britain is that okay? The five, doctors the two
• 25:10
  doctors they've all got incredible scores.
• 25:14
  Yes. But yes.
• 25:15
  When Tyler Hazard. Yeah.
• 25:33
  And Earth junk is Weird, but it's Milotic as well.
• 25:37
  And B fits the tone of the story.
• 25:40
  And then you've got his farting music all the way through the
• 25:44
  twin dilemma, which again, works against Colin Baker coming in,
• 25:48
  and doesn't make you like him. Because the music is clashing as
• 25:52
  with the action as much as it's clashing with his coat and
• 25:55
  everything is just this noise. Well I just wondered why it was
• 25:59
  fine so much. All right.
• 26:06
  This is it, is this? It is this what we read?
• 26:08
  This is where we realize it's essentially.
• 26:10
  Yeah. When they meet the pilot.
• 26:12
  Yeah. And jump Davison must have heard
• 26:18
  something about the original concept for this story because
• 26:20
  the original concept was that this was an interdimensional
• 26:23
  ship that was half, stuck in one dimension and half stuck in the
• 26:27
  other and that's how it kick start of the universe because
• 26:30
  it, that's how it could exist before the universe.
• 26:33
  Because it came from another dimension and the idea was that
• 26:36
  we're going to find the bridge and it was full of people.
• 26:39
  Now, here, we have the time-space element on the side
• 26:42
  from the Tardis and That's how it got to be can travel in time.
• 26:45
  Yes, I've never heard of bridge was going to be.
• 26:49
  I'd never heard yeah. So, the bridge was going to be
• 26:53
  full of these figures that everyone thought was statues and
• 26:57
  gods, but actually they just moving very, very slowly.
• 27:00
  So when they came to record it this way where this pilot is
• 27:03
  actually dead. So that idea is gone Davison
• 27:06
  came onto the set and he was covered in cobwebs and ever
• 27:09
  since like, no, no, he's still alive.
• 27:10
  He's just moving really slowly. Uh, Oh shit.
• 27:14
  But that idea never appears in the finished script.
• 27:17
  So it's interesting to wonder where Davis and got that.
• 27:19
  He must have got it somewhere. Must have me because I think
• 27:22
  that's in the book are like, well, isn't it from what?
• 27:25
  I remember, right? So maybe, hmm, maybe he had a
• 27:28
  chat with Gallagher because Gallagher did come to the read
• 27:30
  through, and carry some of the early recording sessions and
• 27:34
  Davis, Davis on script continuity and everything
• 27:39
  working correctly and how everything fits together.
• 27:45
  Yes. Yes.
• 27:46
  Oh perhaps yet he was discussing it with Gallagher.
• 27:49
  Who said, oh my original idea was blah blah blah and I was
• 27:52
  like, that's fascinating. Let's do that.
• 27:54
  Yeah. What do you order?
• 27:56
  How what do you guys think of the, the pros of John lydecker?
• 28:00
  Been very good. Although I have to say that the
• 28:05
  original version of Warriors gate is nowhere near as good as
• 28:10
  the version that was made. So I listened to the audiobook,
• 28:14
  which is the original version. Ocean and it's certainly not as
• 28:18
  strong a story for Romana as Warriors gate, actually becomes
• 28:23
  and things like that, but the pros is very nicely written.
• 28:26
  But I tell you, as a child, I didn't like his books because he
• 28:29
  didn't have chapters and that really, really bugged me,
• 28:33
  because I was allowed to read a chapter a night.
• 28:35
  So, how many pages was I supposed to read?
• 28:39
  There's this difficult part is the, does the Target novel
• 28:42
  differ much from? What's on the screen with
• 28:45
  terminal? Then I'm its formal atmospheric
• 28:48
  and you come away with a different sense.
• 28:51
  So the audio book was released a couple of years ago and read
• 28:55
  beautifully by Blake 7 sleep and Pacey are really really good.
• 29:01
  Reading of a really nicely written piece of prose.
• 29:09
  I'm going to ask Brenda now, if he thinks a close up on a bit of
• 29:15
  red, plastic to suggest the oncoming end of the universe, is
• 29:22
  an appropriate way to realize such a dramatic moment.
• 29:27
  You know what? It's kind of not, but a couple
• 29:31
  of years later we're going to get a similar kind of
• 29:34
  cliffhanger. That is then over data and I'm
• 29:35
  thinking trial of a Time Lord flying into the black hole of
• 29:40
  Tartarus. You know, we have a shot of the
• 29:42
  ship flying into black hole and then we have Bruckner looking at
• 29:45
  the black hole and his face is illuminated red.
• 29:48
  It's like yeah, this is the moment to bring it in and then
• 29:50
  we have on a black man. Saying, what's happening?
• 29:53
  Yeah, explaining what's happening?
• 29:55
  Then we have on a black man reacting.
• 29:57
  And then we have Colin Baker looking like he's left the iron
• 30:00
  on I think possibly the ground to be happy but you know I would
• 30:08
  never criticize Pippin Jane Baker on Julie because I really
• 30:11
  love their work but they are known to over explain
• 30:15
  themselves. Occasionally.
• 30:17
  Yes, your colleague in there is aiming us directly into the
• 30:21
  heart of the black hole of Tartarus.
• 30:25
  Going to cut it there.