Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Mending the Fracturing Church: Discipleship, Trauma, and Trust (Andrew Hale)

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Mending the Fracturing Church: Discipleship, Trauma, and Trust (Andrew Hale) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian on
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Speaker 1: Doctor James Spencer and I am joined today by Reverend
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Speaker 1: doctor Andrew Hale, who has written a new book called
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Speaker 1: Mending the Fracturing Church, How to navigate conflict and build
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Speaker 1: trust for thriving Communities. He's also the host of the
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Speaker 1: CBF podcast Conversation and the Clergy Confessions podcast and so
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Speaker 1: excited to have Andy here today to talk a little
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Speaker 1: bit about his book about churches and about what we
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Speaker 1: can do to really strengthen them. So Andy, welcome, James,
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Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I think just starting off, give
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Speaker 1: everybody a little bit of a sense of your background.
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Speaker 1: What you know, what's your experience with churches and maybe
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Speaker 1: why did you feel like this topic was something you've
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Speaker 1: you felt led to write about.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I've been in the church since the womb. You know,
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Speaker 2: my mother taught Sunday school, my dad served as you know, deacon,
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Speaker 2: every possible committee you can think about. So when I
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Speaker 2: I received my calling to ministry at fourteen, the last
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Speaker 2: place I wanted to apply that calling was to the church.
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Speaker 2: And I really ran from that for honestly about seven
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Speaker 2: or eight years, trying every other kind of ministry that
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Speaker 2: was out there and enjoyed a lot of different expressions,
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Speaker 2: but my sense of what the church was was that
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Speaker 2: the church was broken. It was full of broken people,
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Speaker 2: and I didn't want to have to deal with that.
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Speaker 2: And of course that's a very self righteous perspective. And
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Speaker 2: transformation came and I spent three months with a pastor's
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Speaker 2: family in Sri Lanka after the tsunami in four and
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Speaker 2: I just saw what it meant to actually care for
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Speaker 2: people and nurture people, to pastor a church and to
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Speaker 2: be a part of a community. And I came home,
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Speaker 2: sent my resume out, and I've been working in a
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Speaker 2: congregational life since then, served in a lot of different
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Speaker 2: expressions of church and a lot of different roles, you know,
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Speaker 2: both as associate path and senior pastor in several congregations,
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Speaker 2: church starter, serving in several different denominational roles. And you know,
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Speaker 2: I'm unabashed in saying that I loved the church, and
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Speaker 2: I think the church is at a critical juncture right
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Speaker 2: now in which we need to be thinking critically and
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Speaker 2: equipping ourselves at a different level to navigate the challenges
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Speaker 2: we're facing today. And so really that's why I wrote
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Speaker 2: this was trying to resource the church with a different
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Speaker 2: set of tools.
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Speaker 1: Do you have a sense, I mean, you've been in
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Speaker 1: ministry now for a long time. Do you have a
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Speaker 1: sense of why this has gotten so bad at this point?
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Speaker 1: I mean, I almost hate to go back to COVID
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Speaker 1: because it just seems like it's at some point it
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Speaker 1: becomes the whipping Boy. But I know there are a
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Speaker 1: lot of challenges during that time period. But I also
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Speaker 1: know that even before that we were seeing some fracturing
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Speaker 1: the church. So maybe just give us the lay of
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Speaker 1: the land. When you when you're talking about the fracturing church,
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Speaker 1: what are the major influences that you see causing the
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Speaker 1: church to begin to fracture to a point where this
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Speaker 1: is becoming a real problem.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, first and foremost, the Church has always been in conflict.
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Speaker 2: I mean, you just read the Book of Acts, and
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Speaker 2: it does not take long for humans to be humans.
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Speaker 2: Some really dicey stuff that's in there. You know. My
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Speaker 2: favorite is the whole debate over whether or not, you know,
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Speaker 2: we need to continue to circumcise people in order for
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Speaker 2: them to fully you know, fallow Christ. And let me
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Speaker 2: tell you, there's nothing more hilarious than dropping the word
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Speaker 2: circumcision from the pulpit and just seeing people immediately, you know,
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Speaker 2: you can see their sphincters shrink up just because they
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Speaker 2: don't want to talk about it, you know. So it's yeah,
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Speaker 2: but you fast forward through the decades, through the centuries,
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Speaker 2: the church has always been in a place of flux. Uh.
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Speaker 2: The world has always been advancing and changing, and the
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Speaker 2: world has you know, and the Church have kind of
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Speaker 2: run this this relationship in which we have shifted and
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Speaker 2: adopted with that. Oftentimes the church has been the one
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Speaker 2: advancing culture, and oftentimes the church is being drug by
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Speaker 2: culture forward in positive ways, you know. Kind of fast
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Speaker 2: forwarding to today in which we live in a day
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Speaker 2: and age where there's a greater access to information. Everyone
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Speaker 2: seems to be a resident expert on everything. There is
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Speaker 2: a multiplicity of opportunities that are out there. But you
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Speaker 2: do see a greater vocalization of certain generations that are
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Speaker 2: no longer putting up with what they view to be
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Speaker 2: a disconnect between the ways and teachings of Jesus and
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Speaker 2: what they see in their local church expressions. I mean, overwhelmingly,
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Speaker 2: when you see when people are talking about why they're
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Speaker 2: leaving institutional church, but not leaving their faith. They cite
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Speaker 2: the disconnect of the teachings of Jesus. They cite pulit derision,
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Speaker 2: political idolatry, they cite all kinds of political and social
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Speaker 2: issues that they seek to be detached from what they
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Speaker 2: believe to be what Christ is calling us to in life.
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Speaker 2: And so I think that, among many things, adds to it.
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Speaker 2: The church has, you know, for lack of better terms,
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Speaker 2: we've always been played by politics, right, it's since our
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Speaker 2: since our inception, if you really think about it. But
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Speaker 2: also you look through critical stages in the church's history,
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Speaker 2: politics and what's happening in a government around the church
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Speaker 2: has always given shape to it. This particular time seems
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Speaker 2: to be a little bit different than what we've experienced before,
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Speaker 2: and it's having a critical role in that churches are separating,
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Speaker 2: I mean, families are separating as a result of politics.
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Speaker 2: You imagine that stuff is definitely going to happen in
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Speaker 2: the pews, you know, people not talking to their parents anymore,
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Speaker 2: their children anymore because of their political perspectives.
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Speaker 1: How much of that do you really put I know,
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Speaker 1: I know you did a lot of cogsite and social
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Speaker 1: psychology in this book. Those are areas that I sort
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Speaker 1: of research in as well, especially on the cogsit side.
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Speaker 1: When I look at where we're at right now, I mean,
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Speaker 1: it's hard not to highlight the influence of a fragmented
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Speaker 1: media environment. And what I mean by that is when
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Speaker 1: I was growing up, you know, you had four channels. Eventually,
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Speaker 1: if you're you know, you're lucky enough get cable, you
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Speaker 1: could get CNN and watch news all.
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Speaker 3: Day, right, but there was still a.
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Speaker 1: Fairly common narrative that you would see across the major broadcasts.
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Speaker 1: It was hard to find more what you might call
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Speaker 1: now minority reporting. But with the Internet, you basically get
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Speaker 1: a fragmenting of multiple opinions, some of it appropriate and viable,
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Speaker 1: others of it just sort of conspiracy theory and you.
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Speaker 3: Know, out there sort of views.
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Speaker 1: But the point is we don't really have a solid
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Speaker 1: common knowledge base in the same way that we used to.
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Speaker 1: Do You see that as as sort of influencing and
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Speaker 1: creating these fissures between the generations and then ultimately within
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Speaker 1: the church.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean from a historical perspective, though, we have
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Speaker 2: to understand that bias media has always existed, So it's
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Speaker 2: It's funny, as you know, we talk about, you know,
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Speaker 2: the ads and things that happen during the you know,
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Speaker 2: voting cycle and just despicable things, and then you go
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Speaker 2: back to like some of the first uh, you know,
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Speaker 2: presidential races and the things written from either either candidate
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Speaker 2: or just like oh like, oh okay, We've always been
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Speaker 2: nasty in this way. I don't think you can limit
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Speaker 2: to just uh, you know, consumeristic media in the sense
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Speaker 2: of what we watch on our devices. I think it
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Speaker 2: also has to do with the media we consume, both
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Speaker 2: social media, but also the algorithm is not in our favor.
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Speaker 2: That was particular one of my favorite chapters, right just
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Speaker 2: because I've experienced as a local church pastor and seeing
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Speaker 2: the pain of political polarization today in the in the
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Speaker 2: chapter specifically, in referencing I'm talking about that, I used
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Speaker 2: Tom Sawyer as an illustration to what's happening to today.
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Speaker 2: You know that that famous uh you know moment and
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Speaker 2: that that great book where Tom is having to whitewash
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Speaker 2: the fence as punishment for his actions, and he somehow
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Speaker 2: convinces all the boys in the town to give him
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Speaker 2: gifts and to to wash this fence. H you know,
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Speaker 2: to whitewash this fence, or to paint the fence white.
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Speaker 2: And that's what's happening today. We are are are experiencing,
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Speaker 2: we are being tom sawyered by by politicians and by
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Speaker 2: the media today who make money off sowing fear, in derision.
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Speaker 2: I mean, at the end of the day, negativity is
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Speaker 2: the vast majority of news propagating these stories slanted makes
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Speaker 2: them money, but only makes us more angry. It makes
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Speaker 2: us more divided. And and most of these people, you know,
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Speaker 2: their colleagues, their friends, they say nasty things about each other,
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Speaker 2: and then half of them are going to get a
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Speaker 2: drink together after work, you know, in Washington, d C.
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Speaker 2: But you know, the reality is that all of us
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Speaker 2: are simply going to news outlets and social media outlets
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Speaker 2: that we want to reinforce what we already want to believe.
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Speaker 2: And so those those echo chambers are existing, pulling us
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Speaker 2: further and further apart. We're not seeing is that discourse
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Speaker 2: of coming to the middle of saying yeah, that is
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Speaker 2: one way to look at this. Let's look at the
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Speaker 2: basic facts on it, not your opinion on the facts
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Speaker 2: of the matter. And what we are being modeled on TV.
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Speaker 2: We're simply replicating into our lives. You know, I love sports,
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Speaker 2: but I don't watch sports commentator shows because I get
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Speaker 2: enough screaming from the media of people who aren't listening
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Speaker 2: and talking to each other. But you watch and these
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Speaker 2: guys are you know, guys and girls are doing the
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Speaker 2: same thing. They're arguing amongst themselves, and it's like, this
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Speaker 2: is what's being modeled in our We aren't seeing healthy
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Speaker 2: ways to have conversations with each other. And then we
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Speaker 2: wonder why we can't have it in our families, let
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Speaker 2: alone have it with people that we voluntary, voluntarily go
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Speaker 2: to this thing called the church. And so it's no
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Speaker 2: wonder we are what we are today.
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Speaker 3: So you think that has to do I mean that
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Speaker 3: the situation of the church.
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Speaker 1: I guess there's a part of me that wants it
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Speaker 1: to and I really mean this, there's a part of
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Speaker 1: me that wants it to look like I don't know
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Speaker 1: that it does look like this, but I want it
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Speaker 1: to be a body of believers coming together, united in
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Speaker 1: Christ and allowing that sort of Christ mindedness to condition
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Speaker 1: the way we think about all the stuff around us.
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Speaker 1: And so no matter what, we're drawn back into conformity
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Speaker 1: to Jesus, we're drawn back into trying to glorify God
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Speaker 1: together and that these other disagreements they don't fade away.
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Speaker 1: It's not like none of them are consequential. But ultimately
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Speaker 1: we have to be asking ourselves, is it, you know,
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Speaker 1: is disagreeing about this in the way that we are
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Speaker 1: going to be glorifying to God?
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Speaker 3: And so is there.
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Speaker 1: I guess maybe I'm the question I want to ask
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Speaker 1: is is discipleship the real root of the problem here
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Speaker 1: that we just haven't learned sufficient to live under the
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Speaker 1: authority of Christ such that when we're hearing all these
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Speaker 1: different news stories and we're listening to all these different perspectives,
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Speaker 1: that they're more formative of us than.
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Speaker 3: Christ is.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and yeah, I was sitting here like, well, way
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Speaker 2: to actually talk about like a biblical model what it be,
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Speaker 2: you know, it means to be in community with other people,
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Speaker 2: and yet what we have modeled for us outside in
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Speaker 2: church right now is such a tribalistic perspective of what
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Speaker 2: the church. Yeah. I read an article a couple of
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Speaker 2: years ago for our denomination looking at a study that
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Speaker 2: basically said that, you know, what we need to understand
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Speaker 2: is that your congregants, people in the pews are spending
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Speaker 2: more time with Tucker Carlson than they are in their
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Speaker 2: Bible and in church, and that really ticks some people off.
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Speaker 2: But it was actual study that looked at our media consumption,
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Speaker 2: how much time we spend watching these things versus how
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Speaker 2: much time we spend in spiritual formation or discipleship, and
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Speaker 2: that the numbers are mind boggling, right. And it's not that,
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Speaker 2: you know, to be a good Christian means to have
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Speaker 2: your head in a Bible all day long. But in
12:38
Speaker 2: the same sense, it's it's not teetering in our favor,
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Speaker 2: and ministers get frustrated all the time. They'll perfectly pin
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Speaker 2: a great sermon, you know, in our tradition is typically
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Speaker 2: twenty minutes or so, and it's like you're twenty minutes
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Speaker 2: that is literally a drop in the ocean of what
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Speaker 2: somebody is spending elsewhere. And so I do think it's
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Speaker 2: a discipleship model. But it's a discipleship model in which
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Speaker 2: we need to recognize is that the same old methodology
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Speaker 2: by which we go about discipleship might not be the
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Speaker 2: correct way in doing it. And that's really I would say,
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Speaker 2: at the heart of my book. Yes, it's looking at
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Speaker 2: cognitive social psychology through theological length, but at the end
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Speaker 2: of the day, it's actually looking at a different kind
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Speaker 2: of discipleship where we are equipping people to better understand
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Speaker 2: their mental functioning, their emotional functioning, their physiology physic physiology
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Speaker 2: in order to better be more you know, and more
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Speaker 2: to be more faithful to their following of Christ in
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Speaker 2: order to love their neighbor in a more authentic way.
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Speaker 2: And I think that's where the church is today, where
13:40
Speaker 2: you know, we want to preach responding to many of
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Speaker 2: the issues that are happening our day, and that is important,
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Speaker 2: right Jesus even addresses yeah, uh, you know, contemporary events
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Speaker 2: that are happening. But I think what many ministers are
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Speaker 2: missing out on is the root, the foundation that's going
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Speaker 2: to allow somebody who might be politically swayed one way
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Speaker 2: or the other to hear what you have to say
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Speaker 2: or to actually do something about it. They need to
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Speaker 2: understand at the root is what is compassion, what is empathy,
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Speaker 2: is what is fear? You know? What are all these
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Speaker 2: things that cause us to maybe not truly live into
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Speaker 2: the teachings of Jesus in the way of Jesus we
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Speaker 2: see in the Gospels.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I'm having a sort
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Speaker 1: of a separate We're doing a series on job and
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Speaker 1: trauma as part of the podcast, and so one of
14:32
Speaker 1: the conversations that's come up there is about a book
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Speaker 1: called The Body Keeps Score, I think is what it's called.
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Speaker 1: If you've ever read that, and you just think, basically,
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Speaker 1: the premise of the book is that once you've experienced trauma,
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Speaker 1: your body tends to hold on to that trauma in
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Speaker 1: physiological ways that maybe are less.
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Speaker 3: Noticeable to you. I think that's a fair sort of
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Speaker 3: pithy summary.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean I think that what you're saying
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Speaker 1: rings true because anxiety, loneliness, some of these physiological effects
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Speaker 1: that we're feeling the the mental, and there's no need
15:07
Speaker 1: to really separate those out necessarily, right, We're all one
15:11
Speaker 1: single bodied person, but we do tend to look at
15:14
Speaker 1: them in these categories. And so as you're seeing these
15:18
Speaker 1: church the church fracturing a bit, what we may not
15:22
Speaker 1: be dealing with is, you know, individual brokenness at at
15:29
Speaker 1: a level that institutional structure can't fix. Is that a
15:35
Speaker 1: Is that sort of a fair assessment.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you add on top of that generational trauma
15:41
Speaker 2: and yeah, familiar trauma. We all you know, I'm a
15:45
Speaker 2: big family systems believer, and you know Bowen talks about that.
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Speaker 2: You know, we have the system by which we function
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Speaker 2: in our life, and that system we carry with us
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Speaker 2: into all the different types of communities that we experience
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Speaker 2: in the church. So the church is experiencing all of
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Speaker 2: our individual trauma and collectively what we've experienced as a whole.
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Speaker 2: It's a mess. It's any wonder that the church can
16:09
Speaker 2: ever be healthy considering that we as human beings are
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Speaker 2: as flawed and as broken as we are. And I
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Speaker 2: mean that mainly from a cognitive sense and an emotional sense,
16:21
Speaker 2: not necessarily a theological sense. We all know that to
16:23
Speaker 2: be a true and so, yeah, that that is our
16:27
Speaker 2: challenge today, right, that that we all carry around so
16:31
Speaker 2: much anxiety and trauma. You were you were citing some
16:34
Speaker 2: of the studies earlier and and and they're looking at
16:37
Speaker 2: right now the physiological toll that all of this is
16:40
Speaker 2: taking on our bodies and the direct correlation between why
16:45
Speaker 2: we're seeing such an increase in high blood pressure and
16:50
Speaker 2: stress related illnesses, cancers that are caused by long term
16:56
Speaker 2: cortisol levels in our bodies. It's it's any one that
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Speaker 2: all of us are bringing this into our faith community.
17:06
Speaker 2: And then collectively we have all these experiences. So maybe
17:09
Speaker 2: your church has gone through a split, maybe you had
17:11
Speaker 2: a church bully, maybe you had a minister who just
17:15
Speaker 2: was a you know, autocratic leader, you know who knows,
17:18
Speaker 2: and then people remember those things and they carry those things,
17:21
Speaker 2: and then it makes us suspicious as we have conversation
17:24
Speaker 2: and try to navigate the next conflict together. And so
17:27
Speaker 2: it's really messy. And so you know, what I'm urging
17:31
Speaker 2: congregations to do is we need to better equip ourselves
17:35
Speaker 2: for the time. I think ultimately, as we equip our
17:38
Speaker 2: people to better understand their own soul, their own psychology,
17:44
Speaker 2: their own emotional state, the healthier they will be. And ultimately,
17:48
Speaker 2: if our individual church members are thriving, then our congregations
17:52
Speaker 2: will thrive. Not in the sense of thriving of all
17:54
Speaker 2: of a sudden we're just you know, growing numerically, but
17:57
Speaker 2: the church in its truest sense it if we're really
18:01
Speaker 2: loving our neighbor as ourselves. We have to love ourselves
18:04
Speaker 2: in an authentic way, and we love our neighbor. You know,
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Speaker 2: ultimately the work of crist is going to thrive through that.
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Speaker 2: But it is complex.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's difficult. I mean I wonder. Yeah again, I've
18:17
Speaker 3: done some work on this.
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Speaker 1: We used to run a campaign called the go Dark,
18:19
Speaker 1: Shine Bright campaign where we were trying to help people
18:22
Speaker 1: understand the influence of social media and cell phone use
18:26
Speaker 1: and all that kind of fun stuff just on their
18:28
Speaker 1: everyday attitudes, right, and so we were suggesting that they
18:34
Speaker 1: take a seven day fast from social media, right, just
18:37
Speaker 1: completely step away from it. Trying to give a practical
18:41
Speaker 1: step for how do you remove an obstacle to spiritual formation,
18:46
Speaker 1: you know, faithful spiritual formation and replace it with something
18:50
Speaker 1: that is going to help your formation into you know,
18:54
Speaker 1: your spiritual formation. How do you see that sort of
18:58
Speaker 1: thing playing out in church is today? You know, there
19:02
Speaker 1: the problem seems relatively clear. What do churches need to
19:07
Speaker 1: pivot to? How do they how do they begin addressing
19:10
Speaker 1: some of these Like we just talked about physiological issues.
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Speaker 1: I mean, I can't really think of the last time
19:17
Speaker 1: I've been at a church that talked about, you know,
19:21
Speaker 1: physiological issues in relation to spiritual formation and how these
19:26
Speaker 1: things may be holding us back. You know the role
19:28
Speaker 1: of sleep in one's life and the necessity of you know,
19:33
Speaker 1: getting a sufficient amount of rest to hold attention in
19:36
Speaker 1: the right areas. You know what I'm saying, like, how
19:40
Speaker 1: do you how do you think about the church positioning
19:43
Speaker 1: itself to really speak on those areas?
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Speaker 2: And yet it's all there in the gospels? Right How
19:48
Speaker 2: many times does Jesus come across someone a physical affirmity
19:54
Speaker 2: and and and he actually does something about it? You know,
20:00
Speaker 2: one of my favorite passages is the passage of the
20:03
Speaker 2: Garriscene demoniac. For most of us, all we've ever heard
20:08
Speaker 2: preached on that is the supernatural implications of it. You know,
20:11
Speaker 2: this is a text where Jesus asks, you know, who
20:14
Speaker 2: are you? And this says religion for many, But the
20:17
Speaker 2: root of that story is actual social, religious, and political isolation.
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Speaker 2: Right here is a person who has been excommuned by
20:26
Speaker 2: their community, chained up, naked among the tombs of the community,
20:31
Speaker 2: and just left out there to waste a way. That
20:34
Speaker 2: man is experiencing so much social isolation, religious rejection, physiological pain,
20:44
Speaker 2: and yet Jesus response to him is to to in
20:48
Speaker 2: a sense, cure him of what was ailing him. And
20:51
Speaker 2: even what was ailing him was his community. And I
20:55
Speaker 2: love that passage because the guy wants to leave and
20:57
Speaker 2: go with Jesus. And wouldn't you, I mean, if if
21:00
Speaker 2: the people you lived with and grew up with rejected
21:03
Speaker 2: you and changed you up naked among the tombs of
21:06
Speaker 2: the dead. But instead Jesus commissions him to go back
21:12
Speaker 2: and to share that. And I think that's part of
21:14
Speaker 2: the challenge of a church today is how do we
21:16
Speaker 2: share stories that are healthy about mental health crisis, about
21:23
Speaker 2: physiological crisis that we are experienced, about chronic illness. All
21:28
Speaker 2: the stories are there within the Gospels. It's just an
21:30
Speaker 2: opportunity for us to share them. We see that modeled
21:33
Speaker 2: in Jesus. You know. Here here is you know, the
21:36
Speaker 2: son of Man, both one God, one hundred percent human.
21:39
Speaker 2: And yet, oh, by the way, that story of going
21:41
Speaker 2: to the garrisone demoniac is the Disciples and Jesus crossing
21:45
Speaker 2: the sea, a great storm comes across them. And what
21:47
Speaker 2: is Jesus doing. He's sleeping in the bow of the boat.
21:50
Speaker 2: If that's to serve enough to itself about rest and renewal,
21:54
Speaker 2: you know, And so I think I think it's an
21:56
Speaker 2: opportunity versus a detriment. It's an opportunity for men and
22:01
Speaker 2: congregational leaders to think deeply, to think that the Gospel
22:05
Speaker 2: isn't just for our spiritual health, but it's for our
22:07
Speaker 2: full health, and how do we begin to reread the
22:11
Speaker 2: Gospels through that lens. There's an abundance of discipleship opportunities
22:17
Speaker 2: that I think are there that we can grow with.
22:22
Speaker 3: I've had a.
22:24
Speaker 1: I mean, as I've thought through these issues, and I
22:27
Speaker 1: haven't really looked at the data on.
22:31
Speaker 3: Church.
22:32
Speaker 1: I suppose church not splits, but this sort of tension
22:37
Speaker 1: within the church. I've read some of the work on
22:40
Speaker 1: pastors wanting to leave their congregations. I've read some of
22:42
Speaker 1: the work on pastors being concerned with political disagreements within
22:46
Speaker 1: their congregations. And then I think the Barna Church Thriving
22:50
Speaker 1: stuff is kind of interesting. They do address some of
22:53
Speaker 1: these major issues. What do you think are the obstacles
22:59
Speaker 1: as we see data sort of rolling in, what are
23:03
Speaker 1: the major obstacles to churches making this switch and beginning
23:08
Speaker 1: to start the process which will probably be a fairly
23:12
Speaker 1: long road of capturing that aspect of the Gospels that
23:16
Speaker 1: you're talking about and actually helping people understand that how
23:21
Speaker 1: they treat their bodies in a the rest of the
23:24
Speaker 1: week is actually going to condition their ability to be
23:29
Speaker 1: discipled overall.
23:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd have to look at some research on this,
23:35
Speaker 2: but just kind of speaking, you know, off the cuff,
23:38
Speaker 2: I think it's actually in the favor of the church
23:41
Speaker 2: because you look at the self help industry. You know,
23:44
Speaker 2: the number of self help books that are published a year,
23:47
Speaker 2: the amount of time that people invest into their physical health,
23:52
Speaker 2: you know, the numbers of people investing in therapy personally
23:56
Speaker 2: are on the rise. I think it's in favor of
23:59
Speaker 2: the church, and I think, honestly, if the churches may
24:02
Speaker 2: be honest with itself, people used to go to the
24:06
Speaker 2: church because the church was the place where they found
24:09
Speaker 2: everything they needed in their life. The church was quite
24:12
Speaker 2: literally the center of our communities. And for many, the
24:16
Speaker 2: church isn't relevant anymore. And why isn't relevant Because it's
24:20
Speaker 2: not asking the questions that are relevant to my life.
24:23
Speaker 2: It's not addressing the things that I feel are deeply
24:26
Speaker 2: rooted in who I am, the struggles that I have.
24:29
Speaker 2: And so I think if the church is honest, it
24:32
Speaker 2: would see this as an incredible opportunity to begin to
24:35
Speaker 2: talk about things that really matter to people. And for some,
24:40
Speaker 2: because you're not accustomed to maybe talking about these things,
24:43
Speaker 2: it feels like you're asking about talking setting the Gospel
24:45
Speaker 2: to the side. And I just shared a few examples
24:47
Speaker 2: of how in no way is it it's actually elevating
24:50
Speaker 2: the Gospel in our lives. So I think it's an
24:52
Speaker 2: incredible opportunity. I think the church would find that people
24:55
Speaker 2: actually would feel the churches relevant their life. The church
24:58
Speaker 2: is actually talking about things that matter, that are transforming
25:01
Speaker 2: who I am, the struggles that I have, the struggles
25:03
Speaker 2: that are taking place in my family. For many churches,
25:06
Speaker 2: they want to avoid this because they think these issues
25:08
Speaker 2: are contentious or raise even bigger issues. And if they're
25:13
Speaker 2: not coming to the church for the answers, they're going
25:15
Speaker 2: to go somewhere else, right, And so why not capitalize
25:18
Speaker 2: on the opportunity of now.
25:22
Speaker 1: When you think about that, you know, I mean, I
25:24
Speaker 1: think about my kids, right. I have a twenty year
25:27
Speaker 1: old son. I don't know whether he would say he
25:31
Speaker 1: ever found a place where he quote unquote belongs in
25:35
Speaker 1: the church right where.
25:36
Speaker 3: He really fit.
25:38
Speaker 1: He's kind of a history and theology nerd, which I
25:42
Speaker 1: can relate to and you kind of think, well, that
25:44
Speaker 1: would make sense in the church, right, But it doesn't always.
25:48
Speaker 1: And so I think there's a sense in which I
25:51
Speaker 1: guess I'm wondering as as the next generation comes up,
25:56
Speaker 1: I guess my concern would be that some of the
26:00
Speaker 1: some of what has become normal in our congregations doesn't
26:04
Speaker 1: feel normal to the next generation. It feels odd and
26:08
Speaker 1: unstructured and maybe even duplicitous or contradictory. And so how
26:16
Speaker 1: can elder boards, pastors, however, the church is structured congregations.
26:24
Speaker 1: That seems to me to require significant change within a
26:28
Speaker 1: congregation to be accommodating of a group of individuals who
26:35
Speaker 1: maybe are feeling the same sorts of discomforts with the church.
26:41
Speaker 1: How do you navigate that our church's identity is X,
26:46
Speaker 1: but now we need to switch over to being hy.
26:50
Speaker 2: Well, we know how people do it?
26:52
Speaker 3: And is that even a problem? Like is that?
26:54
Speaker 2: You know?
26:55
Speaker 3: Maybe that's the first but is that Yeah?
26:58
Speaker 2: I would label that as generational gaps, and they exist
27:02
Speaker 2: in our churches. You know, depending on your faith expression,
27:07
Speaker 2: you could have whole generations missing from your congregation altogether.
27:13
Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. I'm afforded the opportunity with
27:16
Speaker 2: my role that I get to visit churches on a
27:18
Speaker 2: Sunday morning. And in the last four years, I visited
27:22
Speaker 2: a congregation that no knew that they did not have
27:26
Speaker 2: any children in their church, right, and yet they still
27:30
Speaker 2: did a children's sermon every Sunday morning in worship, and
27:33
Speaker 2: I thought, who is this for? But at the same time,
27:39
Speaker 2: it was it was an honest expression of what that
27:43
Speaker 2: church was dealing with, which was this was a model
27:46
Speaker 2: of how they did children's minister in the past. No
27:48
Speaker 2: one quite literally connected their children to this congregation, and
27:52
Speaker 2: yet they're still doing the same old thing for whatever reason. Right, Yeah,
27:58
Speaker 2: so generational gaps doing exists within our congregations, and they're
28:02
Speaker 2: very real, and the church needs to wake up to
28:04
Speaker 2: it today. However, you know, the idea of all of
28:07
Speaker 2: a sudden just doing whatever you think the next generation
28:11
Speaker 2: wants is also a full hardy path to go on,
28:14
Speaker 2: and so I think it begins in the most simplistic
28:18
Speaker 2: sense of cultivating inner generational opportunities for connection and conversation
28:22
Speaker 2: within your church. You know, the most basic thing you
28:26
Speaker 2: can do if your church gathers on Sunday morning, if
28:29
Speaker 2: you have some sort of spiritual formation or discipleship hour.
28:32
Speaker 2: Bring everybody together, ask everybody to leave their small groups,
28:36
Speaker 2: their Sunday school classes, whatever your tradition might be. Bring
28:39
Speaker 2: them all into a gathering place, you know, intentionally place
28:42
Speaker 2: people at different tables to diversify who's at that table,
28:45
Speaker 2: and cultivate opportunities for people to get to know each other,
28:49
Speaker 2: for people to learn each other's stories. That is the
28:52
Speaker 2: slow work of recognition from a congregation side, from the
28:56
Speaker 2: ground up, of helping people understand that we do have differences,
29:00
Speaker 2: that some generations do have different perspectives, but not completely
29:04
Speaker 2: different and maybe just just one degree off. I think
29:08
Speaker 2: that's one of the most basic things that a congregation
29:10
Speaker 2: can do. The next level up, I would say, is
29:13
Speaker 2: you need to begin to intentionally invite the younger generation
29:17
Speaker 2: into leadership. Now, we have that mentality in the church
29:21
Speaker 2: and it's pervasive in every type of organization of you
29:24
Speaker 2: need to waste your time, you need to earn your
29:25
Speaker 2: key this generation. And I'm saying millennials and younger basically
29:30
Speaker 2: saying that's fine, we'll go somewhere else if you don't
29:34
Speaker 2: want us to be a part of leadership. Now, if
29:36
Speaker 2: you don't want us to be a part of real
29:38
Speaker 2: transformation in this organization. Now we'll just leave. So cultivating
29:43
Speaker 2: diverse opportunities with intergenerational expressions within your leadership is ultimately
29:49
Speaker 2: going to bring about the long term change that's healthy
29:52
Speaker 2: for your congregations. So those are just two practical things
29:56
Speaker 2: I think church is going to do. But generational issues
29:58
Speaker 2: are real and they are fighting congregations. And I write
30:02
Speaker 2: about this. You can really point to about five really
30:07
Speaker 2: core divisional issues among generations, but there are so so
30:12
Speaker 2: many more than that that we need to pay attention to.
30:16
Speaker 1: What are a couple of those, I mean, just out
30:18
Speaker 1: of curiosities. I'm not sure I have them clear in
30:20
Speaker 1: my head. I have ideas, but they may be completely wrong.
30:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no no. So I mean, first of all, politics,
30:27
Speaker 2: I mean, you look at the division among the generations
30:32
Speaker 2: when it comes to their political affiliation, and those things
30:35
Speaker 2: alone are going to sift into our church. Technology is
30:40
Speaker 2: another tremendous thing, So I write about in the book,
30:44
Speaker 2: talk about my papa who passed away in twenty eleven,
30:48
Speaker 2: born in the Great Depression and yet lived at some
30:51
Speaker 2: point in the same time as you know, at that
30:53
Speaker 2: time it would have been kids who were watching Sophia
30:55
Speaker 2: the first Today it would be like Bluey right. You know,
30:58
Speaker 2: if you think about the the technological transformation that that
31:02
Speaker 2: man experienced in his life alone, and that technology divides us,
31:08
Speaker 2: the usage of technology, the lack of access to technology.
31:12
Speaker 2: So those are some of the big economics and economic perspectives,
31:17
Speaker 2: you know, and assumptions about those generations. To give you
31:19
Speaker 2: an example, looked at a study that found that basically,
31:23
Speaker 2: if you were to purchase this particular home in the
31:26
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, it would cost you roughly ten thousand dollars.
31:31
Speaker 2: That same house today would cost over a million dollars.
31:36
Speaker 2: And those economic challenges that are faced across generation are
31:39
Speaker 2: very real. So you have, you know, an older generation
31:42
Speaker 2: who's been tithing, you know, dedicated to that, and you
31:45
Speaker 2: have a younger generation who is limited in their capacity
31:48
Speaker 2: to give to the church, and the assumptions that take
31:50
Speaker 2: place there. So those are just a few of the
31:52
Speaker 2: real critical issues that are at heart within our generational gaps.
31:57
Speaker 3: That's really helpful.
32:00
Speaker 1: Question that sort of prompts for me is do you
32:03
Speaker 1: think that the younger generations have a different notion of
32:11
Speaker 1: the prototypical Jesus in their heads. And so I'm kind
32:15
Speaker 1: of drawn on social identity theory here. But the idea
32:20
Speaker 1: is that you you know, we tend to have within
32:22
Speaker 1: our society sort of you know, we could speak of,
32:26
Speaker 1: you know, a true competitor, right, let's say in the
32:29
Speaker 1: sport of basketball or football, and we all have sort
32:32
Speaker 1: of this prototypical image that comes up a set of
32:34
Speaker 1: fuzzy characteristics we could point to and go, yeah, that
32:38
Speaker 1: person was a true competitor, right, they were hard, nos.
32:42
Speaker 3: They did it, you know.
32:45
Speaker 1: And it strikes me that we could do something very
32:47
Speaker 1: similar with Jesus, and maybe we have. Is that the
32:51
Speaker 1: Jesus that we tend to see as prototypical as from
32:54
Speaker 1: a more stable generation that had different economic opportunity, that
32:59
Speaker 1: had different you know, political stability and instability. That's a
33:04
Speaker 1: different sort of prototypical Jesus than we have for a
33:08
Speaker 1: generation that is in a you know, a completely different
33:13
Speaker 1: economic situation, a completely different technological world, and completely different
33:16
Speaker 1: political stability and stability mix.
33:20
Speaker 3: Does that ring true to you at all?
33:22
Speaker 2: Oh?
33:23
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.
33:23
Speaker 2: My friend Zach Hunt every year does the March Madness
33:28
Speaker 2: brackets around the different expressions of Jesus in America, All
33:34
Speaker 2: of us intergenerationally within our own generation have these different
33:39
Speaker 2: expressions of who Jesus is. You know, I straddle Gen
33:44
Speaker 2: X and Millennials, and you know, my generation is known
33:48
Speaker 2: around this concept of moralistic, therapeutic deism. That often the
33:52
Speaker 2: ways that we shave Jesus is around that particular perspective.
33:56
Speaker 2: And so you know, that's the challenge. But that is
34:00
Speaker 2: that is the intentionality, and that is the worth of
34:05
Speaker 2: cross generational connections that we begin to understand. You know,
34:10
Speaker 2: you think about the Jesus that would have shaped my
34:13
Speaker 2: Mema and Papa born in the Great Depression, right, you
34:16
Speaker 2: understand why, you know, a generation born where they literally
34:20
Speaker 2: didn't have two pennies to rup together. You know, my
34:23
Speaker 2: mema talked about that she used to have to stuff
34:26
Speaker 2: newspapers into the ends of her shoes until her parents
34:29
Speaker 2: could afford a new pair of shoes for her years
34:31
Speaker 2: down the road because of the holes in her shoes. Right, Yeah,
34:34
Speaker 2: that generation understanding Jesus and looking at the life to
34:38
Speaker 2: come was such an important critical thing, right because the
34:41
Speaker 2: life right now really sucked.
34:43
Speaker 3: Right.
34:44
Speaker 2: And then imagine the Jesus that people would have experienced
34:46
Speaker 2: during the torment of World War two. So yes, every generation,
34:50
Speaker 2: every context is shaped by the circumstances that have happened.
34:52
Speaker 2: We can't help that. We're human beings. We see Christ
34:55
Speaker 2: in that light. But ultimately that's why the Church needs
34:58
Speaker 2: to be a heterogeneous community and which we have multi generations,
35:02
Speaker 2: multi ethnicities, multi expressions that are taking place in it
35:05
Speaker 2: for us to have a more robust and fuller perspective
35:09
Speaker 2: of who Jesus is and understanding that we will never
35:12
Speaker 2: truly fully understand, you know, who the Son of God is,
35:16
Speaker 2: who the God of the universe is. Let alone and
35:20
Speaker 2: allow that to sit in awe and wonder versus allowing
35:24
Speaker 2: our conceptualization are acutely defined Jesus that we can put
35:28
Speaker 2: into a box, shape the way that we do church,
35:31
Speaker 2: shape the way that we view other people. And really
35:34
Speaker 2: that's at the heart of kind of what I'm trying
35:35
Speaker 2: to do here is to help people understand we all
35:38
Speaker 2: have implicit and explicit bias. We all have things that
35:41
Speaker 2: shape the way that we see the world, the way
35:43
Speaker 2: that we see ourselves, and the more that we can
35:46
Speaker 2: check that and hear from someone else, it broadens our perspectives.
35:49
Speaker 2: It makes us better human beings. At the end of
35:51
Speaker 2: the day.
35:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a posture almost that we have to understand
35:57
Speaker 1: that our view of Christ is incomplete, and we have
36:00
Speaker 1: to resist the temptation to close off other perspectives simply
36:05
Speaker 1: because they disagree with ours. We've got to learn to
36:07
Speaker 1: sort of evaluate some of those, take them in and
36:09
Speaker 1: recognize that the next generation, the next person next to us,
36:14
Speaker 1: may very well be able to add something to our
36:18
Speaker 1: understanding of Christ and to our faith that is very important,
36:23
Speaker 1: very biblical, very theologically sound. It's just that within our experience,
36:27
Speaker 1: it was a blind spot for us, and now someone
36:29
Speaker 1: else is opening that up to us.
36:32
Speaker 2: Sounds like you're talking about like humility. I can't remember
36:35
Speaker 2: that's something we're like call to or like or is
36:38
Speaker 2: there a moment in the Gospels in which Jesus asked
36:40
Speaker 2: the disciples, who do you say that I am? And
36:42
Speaker 2: they keep talking about everybody's different perspectives of who he
36:44
Speaker 2: might be. It's like, that's what I love about scripture.
36:48
Speaker 2: That's what I love is that we could always go
36:51
Speaker 2: back to it understand Oh wait, like this has happened before.
36:54
Speaker 2: How can we learn from this circumstance and what was
36:57
Speaker 2: happening in this moment. Uh yeah, I think it's an
37:01
Speaker 2: incredible moment in the church is history. I think we're
37:05
Speaker 2: at an existential cross erd is not in the sense
37:08
Speaker 2: of the church is not going to survive, but the
37:11
Speaker 2: institution that is the Church of the twentieth and twenty
37:14
Speaker 2: first century is at a place of radical transformation. And
37:19
Speaker 2: it's scary. It is scary. But at the end of
37:22
Speaker 2: the day, what we're talking about is being more faithful
37:24
Speaker 2: to our calling to follow Christ and to love our
37:27
Speaker 2: neighbor as ourselves. And it's going to look different, it will,
37:32
Speaker 2: and it's going to require a different set of skills
37:34
Speaker 2: and perspectives from us. But that is the invitation of
37:37
Speaker 2: Jesus at the end of the day, right, Jesus used
37:39
Speaker 2: the word that oftentimes has been used to shake the
37:42
Speaker 2: Bible at people from a judgmental perspective is the word repentance.
37:47
Speaker 2: But that word, the Greek word, actually means change your
37:50
Speaker 2: way of thinking and living. And so it's a continual,
37:54
Speaker 2: ongoing process that Christ is inviting us into to change
37:57
Speaker 2: our way of thinking and living. And so that's why
38:00
Speaker 2: I feel like the work that I've invested in, you know,
38:03
Speaker 2: it's not just about this book. I get to do
38:05
Speaker 2: this stuff, but you know, throughout the week and work
38:08
Speaker 2: with congregations around these things that at the end of
38:11
Speaker 2: the day, I think we have an opportunity to be
38:14
Speaker 2: more faithful to our calling to follow Christ and to
38:17
Speaker 2: transform our minds so that they might be renewed, so
38:20
Speaker 2: that we might have a better understanding of who God
38:23
Speaker 2: is and what God is calling us to in this world.
38:27
Speaker 1: You mentioned humility, and I agree. I think humility is
38:29
Speaker 1: a necessity. I think sometimes our humility, or our lack thereof,
38:34
Speaker 1: manifests itself in different ways. And I'm wondering if you
38:36
Speaker 1: see this in congregations where there is a spirit of
38:40
Speaker 1: humility there that's being blocked a bit by defensiveness, this
38:46
Speaker 1: sort of desire not to change, or concern that changing
38:51
Speaker 1: is somehow going to create a distorted gospel or a
38:58
Speaker 1: you know, limit our faithfulness in some way. How big
39:01
Speaker 1: of an issue is that actually when you work with congregations.
39:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've had opportunity to talk about this a
39:07
Speaker 2: couple of times with some folks. But you know, cognitive
39:10
Speaker 2: psychologists are looking at why rightness is such a big
39:13
Speaker 2: issue right now, and what they believe is that our
39:16
Speaker 2: desire to be right is triggering a survival mechanism in
39:20
Speaker 2: our brain. So quite literally, it feels like to take
39:25
Speaker 2: a stance on something to express what you need. If
39:29
Speaker 2: you don't, it means the difference between life and death.
39:31
Speaker 2: That the very breath from your lungs could be taken
39:33
Speaker 2: from you if if you are not heard or if
39:35
Speaker 2: you change your mind on something. Yeah, that's scary because
39:40
Speaker 2: you know, we live in a world where right now,
39:43
Speaker 2: I can't tell you the last time I heard somebody
39:44
Speaker 2: actually publicly say I was wrong and not give an
39:47
Speaker 2: excuse of why they were wrong. Like, take more example,
39:52
Speaker 2: I'll go off the cuff here. Kanye West like bought
39:55
Speaker 2: an ad and wrote in the Wall Street Journal to
39:58
Speaker 2: apologize for his anti Semitic remarks that he made in
40:01
Speaker 2: the last couple of years, but then followed it up
40:03
Speaker 2: with an excuse that he credited to a brain injury
40:05
Speaker 2: he had ever twenty five years ago. And it's like,
40:08
Speaker 2: just say I'm sorry, I was wrong. I should have
40:11
Speaker 2: done this stop like full stop right. But this is
40:14
Speaker 2: what's being modeled to us in our world today is
40:17
Speaker 2: we we always have to be right, and so if
40:20
Speaker 2: we're always desired to be right, and that happens across
40:23
Speaker 2: the spectrum from from conservative all the way to progressive.
40:27
Speaker 3: Right, you know.
40:28
Speaker 2: What's going to happen in our congregations. So humility of
40:31
Speaker 2: saying maybe I don't know it all, or maybe this
40:33
Speaker 2: thing that I hold tightly that I believe to be
40:35
Speaker 2: an essential thing of my faith is maybe a non
40:38
Speaker 2: essential thing that I have conflated. And people ask, well,
40:42
Speaker 2: then what is the essentials? Actually you have some essentials, right,
40:45
Speaker 2: you can go to the apostle Nicene Creed that has
40:47
Speaker 2: stood the test of time, and these are the critical
40:50
Speaker 2: essential things about our faith. Everything else is left up
40:53
Speaker 2: to interpretation. Right. You look at the levitical laws you have,
40:57
Speaker 2: you know, dozens and dozens of laws, but then the
41:00
Speaker 2: time you get to Jesus, you have hundreds upon hundreds
41:02
Speaker 2: of commentaries on these laws. It's all everybody's perspectives and opinions.
41:06
Speaker 2: And so humility is hard because we want to be
41:09
Speaker 2: right about God. But I think God is more gray
41:12
Speaker 2: than we give God credit for.
41:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always interesting to me. I agree on the
41:17
Speaker 1: Nicying Creed. It's like you have these sort of broader
41:20
Speaker 1: God guardrails and it is relatively broad I mean, you
41:22
Speaker 1: don't get into you know, I mean, the Nicing Creed
41:24
Speaker 1: could fit on one page. It's not like it's a
41:27
Speaker 1: you know, an extremely long document. Obviously there's a lot
41:30
Speaker 1: of history behind it. But you also have things like
41:33
Speaker 1: Romans twelve ten, which seems pretty straightforward to me, right
41:39
Speaker 1: out do one another in showing honor. It's it's unqualified,
41:45
Speaker 1: it sits right there.
41:47
Speaker 3: You know.
41:47
Speaker 1: It's obviously needs to be situated under a love for
41:50
Speaker 1: God and an understanding of how to honor another.
41:54
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's still pretty clear.
41:57
Speaker 1: It seems like a non essent, you know, a pretty
41:59
Speaker 1: essential element of what it is that we do. And
42:02
Speaker 1: so often it feels like what we're trying to do
42:04
Speaker 1: is be right as opposed to really try to honor another.
42:09
Speaker 1: And that gives us, in my estimation, you know, sort
42:12
Speaker 1: of now I realized it's a little simple story. But
42:15
Speaker 1: it shortens the amount of time we're willing to give
42:19
Speaker 1: people to come around. It limits our patience of how
42:23
Speaker 1: we're going to bear one another's burdens. It just gives
42:27
Speaker 1: us a shortened time span before we were willing to
42:31
Speaker 1: write someone off. And I think there's there's some sort
42:35
Speaker 1: of dynamic there that I'd be interested just to get
42:37
Speaker 1: your take on how does time sort of play into this,
42:41
Speaker 1: Like let me frame it one more way than all
42:46
Speaker 1: the answer. But like I've talked to some people who
42:49
Speaker 1: are deconstructing, like that whole fad that went through the deconstruction,
42:53
Speaker 1: questioning the faith, all that kind of good stuff, And
42:55
Speaker 1: part of their complaints were people would listen for a
43:01
Speaker 1: time and then they expected me just to correct and
43:06
Speaker 1: and it's like maybe it just takes more time.
43:09
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
43:10
Speaker 1: I'm interested to hear your thoughts on time and patience
43:13
Speaker 1: and honoring one how does that all work together?
43:17
Speaker 2: I mean, faith is a lifelong journey. We're consting the
43:22
Speaker 2: process of renewal and transformation, and I think we one
43:28
Speaker 2: of the challenges we have is many of us were
43:30
Speaker 2: handed a gospel that focused on a finite moment of
43:34
Speaker 2: coming to faith, right, and then we forgot that everything
43:38
Speaker 2: after that. You know, the same generation who believes that
43:43
Speaker 2: the invitation of Jesus is to ask Jesus into your
43:45
Speaker 2: heart right, which is not in scripture. So you know,
43:52
Speaker 2: Jesus says, come follow me in this ongoing process, right,
43:56
Speaker 2: And so you know that you talk about a generational divibe,
43:59
Speaker 2: but also the logical divide in which we when we
44:02
Speaker 2: understand salvation to be a moment and time, that might
44:08
Speaker 2: limit your perspective of the ongoing process of being transformed
44:12
Speaker 2: in our life.
44:13
Speaker 3: Right.
44:13
Speaker 2: And I think we can look to the example of
44:15
Speaker 2: the disciples. You know, Jesus had, you know, dozens of
44:20
Speaker 2: dozens of disciples, but he had these twelve, right, that
44:23
Speaker 2: he invested more time into. These are the people that
44:26
Speaker 2: eight meals with him, that slept in the same place
44:28
Speaker 2: as him, that washington perform miracles for three years. They
44:30
Speaker 2: journeyed with him, and yet when given the opportunity to
44:35
Speaker 2: faithfully live into his ways, most of them fell flat
44:38
Speaker 2: on their face. Right. How many times did Jesus talk
44:40
Speaker 2: about being a peacemaker, How many times did Jesus talk
44:43
Speaker 2: about responding to hatred with love? And yet who is
44:46
Speaker 2: it Peter that pulls out a sword when Jesus is
44:48
Speaker 2: being arrested and it cuts a dude's a year off? Right,
44:52
Speaker 2: So we see that even the very people who walked
44:56
Speaker 2: with Jesus still didn't get it right, even though they
44:58
Speaker 2: witnessed it. And so I think we go back to
45:00
Speaker 2: humility and understanding that spiritual formation discipleship had a lifelong process,
45:06
Speaker 2: and we want people to come to a place that
45:08
Speaker 2: helps us understand. I think sometimes that we don't want
45:11
Speaker 2: to truly invest in people's lives because we only want
45:14
Speaker 2: to hear them for a limited amount of time before
45:16
Speaker 2: we move on to our next thing, and so I
45:18
Speaker 2: think our availability is a challenge to that. But ultimately,
45:21
Speaker 2: I think it's a theological shift that has to take
45:23
Speaker 2: place of understanding. This stuff just takes time. You know,
45:28
Speaker 2: Deconstruction has always existed there, it's just the terminology we've
45:31
Speaker 2: been using for it as of late, right, that people
45:33
Speaker 2: have shed themselves of a limited theological perspective and transformed
45:39
Speaker 2: themselves into something different. I mean, we wouldn't have the
45:42
Speaker 2: Free Church today if if Martin Luther didn't say, among
45:45
Speaker 2: many many other reformers, say hold on a second, I've
45:49
Speaker 2: got I've got some issues with what we're doing here, right,
45:53
Speaker 2: But that's the danger, right, when do we become the
45:56
Speaker 2: religious you know, zelots and the Sadducees, who are who
46:00
Speaker 2: are you know putting their stakes in the ground to
46:03
Speaker 2: say this is who God is, this is how things work,
46:06
Speaker 2: and how things function. Yeah, is Jesus not knocking you know,
46:10
Speaker 2: down those things, turning over the tables to say this
46:14
Speaker 2: is not what you think it is. This is an
46:15
Speaker 2: ongoing process.
46:19
Speaker 1: Well, man, I appreciate this work. Maybe we just leave
46:23
Speaker 1: the audience with one sort of tip, you know, if
46:27
Speaker 1: your church is struggling with this, aside from buying your
46:31
Speaker 1: book right and kind of understanding what's going on here.
46:35
Speaker 1: And I mean, I really mean that. It's not just
46:37
Speaker 1: a you know, product endorsement. It's like, we have to
46:40
Speaker 1: be informed about what the dynamics are they're influencing this
46:44
Speaker 1: so that we can start pressing into them. If we
46:47
Speaker 1: just say there's a problem here, we don't really have
46:49
Speaker 1: a solution for it.
46:50
Speaker 3: So we have to understand some of the dynamics that
46:52
Speaker 3: are going on here. But what would.
46:55
Speaker 1: You you know, we talked a little bit about the
46:57
Speaker 1: sort of intergenerational dialogues. If a church really wanted to
47:02
Speaker 1: get that started, what sort of what would you suggest?
47:07
Speaker 1: Just knowing how churches sort of think my experience with churches,
47:11
Speaker 1: it's like, well, do I schedule this on a Saturday?
47:14
Speaker 1: Do I put together a planning committee?
47:16
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
47:17
Speaker 1: Like you can You've probably experienced that spiral way more
47:20
Speaker 1: than I have. So how would you recommend churches sort
47:24
Speaker 1: of move toward this sort of intergenerational dialogue as a
47:27
Speaker 1: practical stuff.
47:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my favorite authors, Henry now and just incredible.
47:34
Speaker 2: He talks about that very thing that it's quote say forbadim,
47:41
Speaker 2: but he talks about that more and more. The desire
47:45
Speaker 2: grows within him to walk with people, to share meals
47:49
Speaker 2: with people, to sit down and to hear people's stories.
47:52
Speaker 2: And he talks about then the challenges that we then
47:54
Speaker 2: have to put a committee together in a meeting together,
47:56
Speaker 2: and that happen right, you know, but ultimately it is
48:00
Speaker 2: you know, he wonders if not the first thing to
48:02
Speaker 2: do is to just be with people and to simply
48:07
Speaker 2: truly love them. And so I would say that is
48:10
Speaker 2: the most simple and complex thing that churches can do.
48:15
Speaker 2: And I go to Acts chapter two. I'm say start
48:17
Speaker 2: with the Bible, which is you see Acts chapter two
48:20
Speaker 2: forty two through forty seven where you see this early
48:22
Speaker 2: expression of the church. Yes they are worshiping together, Yes
48:25
Speaker 2: they are doing Bible study, their former Bible study discipleship together,
48:29
Speaker 2: but also says they're breaking bread in each other's homes.
48:32
Speaker 2: They're supporting each other's businesses. People are selling land and
48:35
Speaker 2: possessions in order to get to the needs of those
48:37
Speaker 2: that are happening around them. So, you know what I
48:39
Speaker 2: would say to the church today is the answer is
48:42
Speaker 2: not more worship and more Bible study. But it's not
48:45
Speaker 2: to not do those things. It's to cultivate simple opportunities
48:48
Speaker 2: to just be present with each other. If you need
48:52
Speaker 2: to pray at the beginning, pray at the beginning to
48:54
Speaker 2: ask the Lord to bless the time. But then don't
48:56
Speaker 2: be obsessed with thinking that we need to crack open
48:58
Speaker 2: scripture in that like doing that. You know, if we
49:01
Speaker 2: all see things differently, we're all going to argue over
49:04
Speaker 2: whe the scripture says to start with some simple questions.
49:07
Speaker 2: What's your favorite ice cream? Tell me about what your
49:10
Speaker 2: favorite toy was when you were, you know, eight years old.
49:14
Speaker 2: I do this work with congregations where we invite them
49:17
Speaker 2: together to come together with the agenda of just only
49:21
Speaker 2: spending time together and cultivating some conversations that really begin
49:25
Speaker 2: to build a mutual sense of trust and respect for
49:27
Speaker 2: each other, which is the bedrock foundation of us navigating
49:32
Speaker 2: anything difficult together. My favorite chapter in the book to
49:36
Speaker 2: write was that churches that play together stay together. And
49:40
Speaker 2: it's looking at the study that found that families that
49:43
Speaker 2: often incorporate more play into their lives together are the
49:47
Speaker 2: healthiest families that are out there, and I've found the
49:49
Speaker 2: same to be true for congregations. I think we have
49:53
Speaker 2: lost a sense of what joy and amusement is in
49:58
Speaker 2: together and community. I think we need to find that again,
50:01
Speaker 2: and finding that together again, we can then have the
50:04
Speaker 2: energy and that synergy to begin to navigate some of
50:07
Speaker 2: these challenges.
50:09
Speaker 1: Great advice. Andy, really appreciate that the book is going
50:13
Speaker 1: to be out. By the time this episode airs, your
50:15
Speaker 1: book will have released, So i'd encourage listeners to go
50:19
Speaker 1: check out Mending the Fracturing Church by Andrew R.
50:22
Speaker 3: Hale. You can find it on Amazon, I'm sure, and
50:26
Speaker 3: I'll put a link to the pages that I have
50:29
Speaker 3: in the show notes so you all can go get this.
50:32
Speaker 3: I think it's just crucial for the church. We need
50:34
Speaker 3: the church. The church is sort of the hope of
50:37
Speaker 3: the world.
50:37
Speaker 1: It's not going to go anywhere, but I think it
50:40
Speaker 1: can have healthier or sicker versions of itself, sort of
50:43
Speaker 1: manifesting the witness of Christ and.
50:45
Speaker 3: We really want to be.
50:48
Speaker 1: Giving a healthy, robust testimony for Jesus, and so just
50:52
Speaker 1: encourage you to.
50:53
Speaker 3: Check this out.
50:54
Speaker 1: Check out Andrew's website as well Andrew Hale dot com
50:57
Speaker 1: for other resources there, and check out the podcast CBF Conversations.
51:02
Speaker 3: It's on Apple as well.
51:04
Speaker 1: So Andy, thanks a lot for being here man, and
51:07
Speaker 1: really appreciate the work you're doing. Appreciate your thoughts here
51:10
Speaker 1: and hope it does really well.
51:13
Speaker 2: Thank you, James, I enjoyed talk with you.
51:15
Speaker 1: All Right, everybody, we'll catch you on the next episode
51:17
Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian.
51:18
Speaker 3: Take care,