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Bonus Patreon Release: Warrior Woman and Master Man! With Priya Saxena and Theodate! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey everybody, welcome back to The Great Mulk and Lane Patreon channel where I get to join with friends talking about off overlooked characters that deserves some second thought.
0:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes they don't, and there's not a character you ever wanted to learn about, but we're going to talk about masturbating warrior women today.
0:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not even putting mastermen on the billy.
0:18
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just going to call this the warrior woman episode, but it is about both of them.
0:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, the theme on my show in November has been the ideas of fascism and pop culture.
0:27
[SPEAKER_02]: These ideas have been building in my brain for the show for a long time.
0:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of a heavy topic, but we've been doing these little red skull many conversations for those of you that listened to the show.
0:35
[SPEAKER_02]: They've been really healing.
0:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I initially had thoughts of doing this themed month back when we covered the secret empire in the Watergate story and Captain America that involved the X-Men.
0:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is the right time for this conversation and so all of the patrons and all of the episodes this month are circling around concepts that come from painful places in history But that have made transformative impact on all all of our fiction that we've been reading and consuming our entire lives So it's almost jarring to realize how deep these roots run
1:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So today, we're going to talk about Masterman and Warrior Woman.
1:09
[SPEAKER_02]: These are the Uber men.
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: These are the German super agents, the equivalent of Captain America, but four of the Germans.
1:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And boy, are there some stories to be told?
1:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very excited to welcome my dear friends the day, Chase and a Prius Xena with me today.
1:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's lovely to have you both back here.
1:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me have you both introduce yourselves with your name and pronouns.
1:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me hear your initial thoughts when I invited you to join me for the SuperNazies episode.
1:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
1:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
1:40
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I, well, for one thing I knew when you asked me for this cement, I was going to have to read new invaders again, which I was not exactly thrilled about, but this can be a real challenge because you really have to read into these characters as being actual characters and not just like Nazis, and it's like, well, I got a guess I got to give masterman and warrior woman some thought now and then you're pronounced she her she her yes.
2:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
2:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you're always down to go to the invaders realm, but that sometimes means the invaders stories you don't like to.
2:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Priya, I use she her.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the last episode I did was Victoria hand, and I was going to say that was very different.
2:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, it's kind of, there are some similarities actually, I think, with Warrior Woman.
2:27
[SPEAKER_00]: When Chad likes sent me the email of the characters, I had never heard of them.
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I like Googled warrior women and I was like, oh, she hates men.
2:35
[SPEAKER_00]: This is great.
2:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I like open up her issue on Marvel unlimited.
2:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh, she's a Nazi.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I see.
2:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And boy, yeah, she looks like I'm at her costume in a minute.
2:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of an adventure.
2:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do have like such a funness for 70s Marvel comics.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was also kind of fun to dig into this.
2:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we got to open up on, again, this is, we're going to be touching on things that are real from history that have been impacting our fiction forever and ever.
3:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been talking a little about on the show, on the whole society, which is the one of the origins of kind of Aryan thought.
3:08
[SPEAKER_02]: White, pretty people who are blonde, who are thinking about like, there's this ancient land of like Norse gods where everyone is white and happy.
3:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It's this beautiful paradise that we just have to make happen by like,
3:21
[SPEAKER_02]: doing horrible things to all of the people who aren't white and blond.
3:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really rough reckoning and there's a lot of mysticism and fascism and really horrible things from history tied into those concepts.
3:33
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a certain school of thought from many white people that like hey I'm something special, I'm God's chosen.
3:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That shows up in most religions, it showed up in Mormonism in my upbringing, and
3:43
[SPEAKER_02]: where we were kind of openly taught back when I was a kid, even though they don't say it as much now, that if you are like a black or brown person, you probably are like a little bit less favored of God and you got a curse and now you have to like make yourself white through like righteousness, like really shitty belief structures, just horrible, horrible things.
4:02
[SPEAKER_02]: We see a lot of that in our history as well.
4:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And one thing we have to build on.
4:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Dian.
4:08
[SPEAKER_00]: the sentiment when like the British were colonizing India, right?
4:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Was they were like, oh, these people have like their brown on the outside, but we can make them white on the inside.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: If we like bring our religion and our thinking to them, which of course was awful.
4:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, and then, I mean, this existed in Utah where I live now, where, like, there's Native Americans, but if we interpret them enough, then their color will eventually leave.
4:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we can dominate the bloodstream with whiteness, right?
4:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, really Ike on comfortable.
4:38
[SPEAKER_02]: There's stuff like this all over our history, I promise, and all countries around the world.
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to open on a German program that existed in 1935 that was set up by that horrible, horrible human-hinder, akin
4:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Hitler founded a program in 1935, shortly after Hitler came to power, called the Laban's Born program, where they wanted to increase the population of racially pure Aryans.
5:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So they would like sign up women from Norway that like met certain measurement standards and like have them breed with Nazi soldiers, with the idea that they'd be raising a super race of Aryans.
5:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But there were also many, many, many children kidnapped from occupied territories who met those standards who were then raised in these things.
5:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's child abduction and racial breeding.
5:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are many, many thousands of people that exist on this planet who are descendants of those specific individuals.
5:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And like it's an active part of our culture.
5:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Captain America is the idea of the creation of a super soldier, right?
5:37
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a German scientist named Ibrahim Erskine, which is very much Albert Einstein.
5:42
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about that in another type.
5:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Who is a defector from Germany who helps the Americans use a super soldier serum on weak or undesirable Aryans in order to create the perfect Aryan?
5:55
[SPEAKER_02]: We have future stories that show that they experiment on black people first.
5:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where the Isaiah Bradley story comes in.
6:01
[SPEAKER_02]: A Steve Rogers then becomes like the epitome of the American dream, but also the epitome of the Aryan or Nazi ideal dream, but he's dressed in the American flag.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: The red skull later lives in the body of Captain America, the literal clone body of him for ages and ages.
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And we have things like the dark Captain America out there, right?
6:20
[SPEAKER_02]: The flag smasher character who's part of the secret empire for those of you.
6:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they call him Steve Rogers quite often.
6:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's the idea
6:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So Steve fits in and then we get Black Captain America as a direct correlation to that and the commentary shifts widely when it's Sam Wilson.
6:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So before we even jump into to Masterman at which is where we'll start, we've got to recognize the German relationship with Captain America is more than just the idea that he stands for American values.
6:52
[SPEAKER_02]: He was like a German product who got defected from the war and then it became like the
6:57
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, do you see what I'm saying?
6:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I always find one of the things I find so interesting about Captain America is that like, it's more on a metal level is that like he was created by a German defector and all that in the comics, but in real life, he was created by the children of Jewish immigrants who had an issue with the United States, not an interventionist policy and met like backlash because it was an unpopular opinion that America shouldn't be, should fight against Nazis at the time.
7:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So like,
7:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Steve like the character of Steve Rogers was created basically to be a slap in the face to this idea of the area and like Nazi super soldier and I've always found that like such an interesting like historical statement of like because he was created like before Pearl Harbor before like America was involved in the war even wanted to be and that's it so like Steve Rogers as the product of like Jewish
7:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we won't have time for that longer conversation.
7:53
[SPEAKER_02]: You can get a whole college degree in the idea that Jewish immigrants created both Captain America and Superman before that.
8:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And the idea of what that represents, standing in the face of, you know, caps first appearance as him punch and hitler on the cover, right?
8:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and that's before we knew about the camps.
8:10
[SPEAKER_02]: We very much want to open on this idea of the German envy of Cap because he was the German
8:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So we also have to give a little bit of weight to the fact that most of our creators of our characters in the 1960s were veterans.
8:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Most, if not the children of veterans, right?
8:29
[SPEAKER_02]: When Marvel starts going absurd and crazy and diverse in the 70s, that's kind of the hippie and drugs era, but our early creators from Wallywood to Stanley to Jack Kirby and on were all veterans.
8:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of our storylines, the comedy threat, the red threat, the idea of what we're going to punch, those are being redefined by people even now, 70 years later, or 80 years later.
8:55
[SPEAKER_02]: 1970s is when Roy Thomas created the invaders.
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: He took a bunch of heroes from World War II, put
9:04
[SPEAKER_02]: queer book if we're honest with lots of great characters from wizard to blue diamond to red rave and to bucky to spit fire to there's a lot of really delicious characters and they create a whole new rogue's gallery and we're you know weaving in superhero adventures to real world stuff.
9:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to open up on giant size invaders number one.
9:24
[SPEAKER_02]: We open on the image in this book of the invaders attacking a massive visage of Adolf Hitler.
9:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we shift to Captain America, bantering as they take down monozies.
9:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Then Cap gets a visit from the FBI, reminding him about his origins when he entered Project Rebirth.
9:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Experimented on the infirm and an attempt to create the perfect man and only Steve Rogers was transformed before our scheme was killed by the Nazis.
9:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We jump back to World War II in the Invaders' life, and just before the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the Nazis led by General pre-choned, which translates to war dog, who speaks in such a cartoonish German accent that it's almost offensive, reveals that he's been working with brain drain.
10:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of you may recognize this character from Squirrel Girl Comics.
10:06
[SPEAKER_02]: She reprograms Nazi alien brain computer in the future, but this guy, he's a Nazi scientist who's brain got reprogrammed He's a brain in a jar now, and general trickle wants to design the ultimate overman or Uber munch.
10:22
[SPEAKER_02]: He says things like, behold, I must a man, a zik, do you hear me?
10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Y'all, I hear you at Conno, but Masterman moves when Masterman wins!
10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We see a blonde, a super strong guy with angry eyes and a strong jawline.
10:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like kind of what if Steve Rogers might look like if he was a little bit more like pro wrestler?
10:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He's in a deep blue skin type suit, yellow boots, spikes on the bottom, yellow gloves, yellow belt, yellow collar, striations down the shoulders and arms, and a bright, old red swastika on his chest, and another on the back.
10:55
[SPEAKER_02]: The branding is very clear.
10:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Swastikas and comics were very common in the 60s and 70s, like all fucking over the place.
11:02
[SPEAKER_02]: The narrator calls him a demonic blonde beast.
11:05
[SPEAKER_02]: He's super strong, and he's lashing out and just destroying shit, testing out his new powers.
11:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very Superman energy.
11:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Ochtong, Masterman, says Craig Kuhn.
11:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Come to your senses at once.
11:15
[SPEAKER_02]: You were created to do our bidding.
11:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Not to smash our laboratory and master man says, I was created to be myself.
11:22
[SPEAKER_02]: You are but human and man is something to be surpassed.
11:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Even as I surpassed him, I, the uber a manch, the master man and this man has so many speeches about how great he is coming up.
11:34
[SPEAKER_02]: We will not read all of them, but there are a lot.
11:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Just then, the human torch and Toro attacked the castle, Masterman insults the weak Nazis around him, Toro calls him Fritz.
11:43
[SPEAKER_02]: My name is not Fritz, but Masterman, dwell on that in a few moments before I kill you both.
11:48
[SPEAKER_02]: They set the place on fire, the Nazis are dead, and Craig Hound and Masterman escape on a slide from the castle window that has a low escape route, just in case we, leaving the two Americans to rescue the captive scientist Murray Anderson.
12:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Later, Masterman runs a U-boat to an American naval base, and he bitch slaps Grigoon across the face, Grigoon wants to fire some torpedoes, but Masterman wants to do it himself.
12:13
[SPEAKER_02]: The honor of destroying that battleship and all aboard must go to me and me alone, not some idiot U-boat commander, behold English dogs, I teach you the Uber Munch, and his name is Masterman, and he turns out he's strong enough to shake off blows from the Submariner.
12:29
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd best return to the water and lord over the oysters and crabs, he says, but name more fights back.
12:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, leather lad, what was it you said about oysters and crabs?
12:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the banterism.
12:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.
12:41
[SPEAKER_02]: But soon Captain America, Bucky, Torch, and Toro attack.
12:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman kicks Bucky in the face, punches, caps shield, shakes off fireblasts all at the same time.
12:50
[SPEAKER_02]: He caused them swine and knife clowns.
12:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I possessed all of the power of Captain America ever had and much more besides,
12:59
[SPEAKER_02]: The Nazis warn that Masterman is running out of time, it turns out his power is temporary, unless he gets more of the chemical that boosts him up.
13:07
[SPEAKER_02]: He shrinks back thus to his 98-pound weakling size, so he's literally Steve Rogers, but German, this can't be happening to me.
13:15
[SPEAKER_02]: He says in a slightly higher voice like he sucks in helium now, of course.
13:19
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the way I was before.
13:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I was always weak, the weakest man in my local Nazi boond.
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why Creen couldn't sought me out.
13:27
[SPEAKER_02]: He said he wanted to duplicate the original project rebirth, and it worked.
13:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It worked.
13:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But now I'm like I was again, just like I was.
13:36
[SPEAKER_02]: A poor little white boy.
13:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Kat punches him.
13:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman trips on his own oversized uniform.
13:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like a kid dressed in clothes that are too big.
13:43
[SPEAKER_02]: He begs for mercy.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: who would blows up the submarine, and the heroes present decide to band together as the invaders.
13:52
[SPEAKER_02]: This is right.
13:53
[SPEAKER_02]: They're first story where they announced themselves as a team.
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at access.
13:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we come, is their tagline.
14:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And that, my friends, is the introduction of Masterman.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Captain America and a name or teaming up is very interesting because obviously Steve Rogers is
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Very not American in like some ways and like ways that like
14:22
[SPEAKER_00]: like Nazis like call him like Mongrel and stuff.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So he sort of like racialized in an interesting way is interesting to see him in these stories.
14:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of like both then like identity and national identity and things like both you brought up.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the most interesting things about Masterman is that he John Bern reconcils this later to for him to be German, but initially he's American.
14:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's specifically like an Nazi-SIMP American Nazi sympathizer.
14:52
[SPEAKER_02]: He specifically mentions being part of a boond, which is American version of Nazism.
14:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I gave him the German accent here because, but I'm really glad you brought this up.
15:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Because John Bern later says that he was sent to America by Hitler and all that, making him German.
15:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But initially, like he, we don't even get any indication that you can speak German for like the first four appearances he has.
15:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's really interesting that he's kind of like this homegrown Nazi equivalent of Captain America.
15:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he gets turned into Masterman in Virginia and like it's so it's like, I think there's this really interesting thing of him being this foil to Captain America, but also like being of the same nationality in contrast to what pre-abroad up about like name or being like other does this other
15:36
[SPEAKER_01]: like as a citizen of another nation of this other race and like his interactions.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he occupies this really interesting like counterpoint to Captain America in that way um that we kind of lose when they like change it that he was just like another German.
15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It almost makes like him seem more ridiculous because he's like so much like play acting as like a like true German Nazi and it's like no
16:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it is like sad in a way where it's like you fully are not this.
16:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Pretty much texting the earlier about how much sympathy she has for Masterman in this issue.
16:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just joking.
16:20
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a very hard character to like he's fun.
16:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fun to punch a bad guy, right?
16:25
[SPEAKER_02]: But like he's running around calling people Mongols while saying how special he is because he's white and then the second you take his ego away He's like, but please have mercy on me.
16:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm whiny little baby.
16:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I fucking hate him.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I really hate this character But he's very hateable and but I also I like the way he's drawn as like very rectangular because it's like you feel like it would be really satisfying to punch him
16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: and then you see Captain America and like everybody punch him and you're like, yes, this is great.
16:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just gonna throw it out there at the beginning.
16:56
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a particular read on this character that he is gay and trying a real hard to fight it.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, he's a terrible person no matter what but watch for the queer read especially as we go.
17:06
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll look out there.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: He I think the most consistent term I would use to describe him is pathetic like he's just he's just constantly like pathetic and like he's got all this power and like he's so impudent with it and he can't do anything with it and like he's rejected by everybody who like he wants to like and when he gets later when we jump to it like when he and Warrior woman are supposed to get married It's like the idea never even occurred to him and then he becomes obsessed with it even though it doesn't seem like anything he wants
17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like a very like in-sell perspective on the marriage where he's like, oh, yes, now that I am this like big buff guy, I am owed a woman and it's really gross, but like Hitler is also really gross in this story and it's also like crazy that Hitler is a comic book character.
17:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think extensively used comic book character it turns out.
17:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I've read a lot of stories about Hitler and comics recently.
17:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, if we're capturing real life energy, Masterman is kind of giving me like Donald Trump junior.
18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: If you guys just think about like the taste that gives you in your mouth, that's this character in real life.
18:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a way you have a comparison.
18:12
[SPEAKER_01]: the way I felt found myself thinking about him the whole time is that he just feels like one of those kids who gets radicalized by Nazi YouTubers.
18:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what he is.
18:26
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just this like ineffectual pathetic American guy who just wants this power and wants this respect and gets told by these figures that what he needs is that the Naziism is what's going to
18:42
[SPEAKER_01]: he dives in wholeheartedly.
18:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Something to finally make me feel special.
18:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's easy.
18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm going to cover some of this quickly because this guy has more appearances than you'd think.
18:51
[SPEAKER_02]: He's very punchable.
18:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We see him in Markle 2 in one annual number one.
18:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman is fighting Miss America, Blue Diamond, and the wizard, any steals the new cock.
19:00
[SPEAKER_02]: pit for the Nazis because they want to build a swastika-shaped air-fair ship that's like power rangers style made up of different pieces.
19:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I need you to understand listeners, you know me, and you know how much I love a fucking stupid story, but I'm just doing one sentence on this one.
19:15
[SPEAKER_02]: But go read this story.
19:17
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fucking crazy.
19:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And wow, is it weird and weird and fun?
19:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Marvel 2 and 1 number 20 is a follow up we see brain drain and sky shark and you man and masterman all working together.
19:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Versus the time-traveling thing and they're all in their little flying swastika with a bulletproof cockpit the masterman has stolen.
19:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Together we shall render you limb from grotesque limb as a warning to all others who would oppose the fatherland and a fear.
19:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And the thing says couldn't you just send them a nasty postcard?
19:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Later, Masterman says to you, man, you are a decadent swine marano, all of that matters as the preservation of the Master race.
19:52
[SPEAKER_02]: You are fortunate to have been named an honorary organ as have our Oriental allies.
19:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Marano is Atlantean, but it's gross.
20:02
[SPEAKER_02]: We also get
20:02
[SPEAKER_02]: The only flag that shall ever wave over these dex monsters, the swastika, and it shall wave proudly over the bodies of such grotesque as yourself.
20:10
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I suspect you are not, nor have you ever been an organ.
20:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And the thing is Jewish, by the way, although not, canonically at this point, I don't think the thing goes, Aryan, Schmarion, the Liberty Legion shows up.
20:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman misses the thing, while getting punched out by Ms. America.
20:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yay!
20:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he gets whizzed on by the wizard.
20:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And yep, that's how I chose to phrase that.
20:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he gets bitch slapped by a red raven who is super queer and then the lights go out.
20:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we have thoughts on the swastikaer ship?
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an incredible story.
20:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
20:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So stupid.
20:43
[SPEAKER_02]: We good there.
20:44
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, now we get a shift energy a little bit.
20:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to go back over to the invaders.
20:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Invaders number 16.
20:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman is back on the cover.
20:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd swine, you have traveled a thousand miles only to die at the hand of Masterman.
20:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Captain America and Bucky are watching a film about the invaders in their cover-eye divies, and they notice a blonde man and his brunette girlfriend in the crowd in London.
21:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Captain Bucky tried to save the couple from a group of Nazis and red hoods.
21:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It turns out the woman is named Julia Kernig, she's a Nazi agent, and she helps the Nazis kidnap a soldier named Biljo White, who's a real-life comic book illustrator by the way.
21:20
[SPEAKER_02]: The Invaders review Biljo White's book, Major Victory, so it's a comic within a comic, like a play within a play, because they need information from it for their mission.
21:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about it.
21:30
[SPEAKER_02]: They head to Hitler's base, the book, Disgarten, which is a real place, where Master Man crashes the ship.
21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: You invade us, Simbrotans.
21:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you gaping at you decadent pig, and he singlehandedly captures all of the invaders and puts them into cages, Captain and Bucky are chained to the wall.
21:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Namor is an a heated fishbowl.
21:48
[SPEAKER_02]: and the human torchentoro are kept in underwater tanks.
21:51
[SPEAKER_02]: He calls all of them stospangled swine and then Hitler himself walks in.
21:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, remember during the occurred egg, the woman we just met.
21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: In addition, number 17, it's called Behold, the wrath of Wario woman, the awesome origin of the most powerful, deadly, Nazi nemesis of all.
22:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Pray it, you want to describe Wario woman for us.
22:11
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a look.
22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I hate to say it, but she looks really cool, except for the literal Nazi arm band.
22:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, she has dark hair.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: She has a black swimsuit with leather belts and buckles and stuff.
22:27
[SPEAKER_00]: She is drawn pretty consistently in her publications as very tall and muscular and with broad shoulders and a square jaw, which is interesting to me.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: power thing and like a masculinity thing, which like, I would be into if she wasn't a literal Nazi.
22:48
[SPEAKER_00]: For all of you.
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and she has a whip that is important.
22:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, she has a whip.
22:52
[SPEAKER_02]: She got swastika's on her armbands.
22:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and later she gets like swastika brawcups.
22:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's... Oh, does she?
22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not notice.
23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I maybe didn't read that because I don't know how I wouldn't be.
23:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But she's giving very for those of you that listen to the show regularly last Pride Month Sarah and Joe and I did an episode on Katrina Luisa Van Horn, the Man Killer, which is very much the modern interpretation of warrior woman in some ways.
23:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they had to be at the same time actually and they're both like in this feminism era.
23:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have a warrior woman on the cover.
23:24
[SPEAKER_02]: She's 50 feet high.
23:25
[SPEAKER_02]: She's battling the five invaders as an arena of thousands watches and their swastik is fucking everywhere on the cover.
23:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Now luckily Hitler has a belt that translates his German into bad English, that's the story trope we get.
23:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And we learn that Masterman, by the way, in this issue, we learn his real name is Willie Lomer, which is a literal playoff of the character Willie Lomer from Death of a Salesman.
23:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, did you have you seen Death of a Salesman?
23:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I, it's so perfect that they name this character after him.
23:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like, this is a homeroma.
23:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we, we only have like the one sentence version, but can you tell us why this is funny?
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, death of a salesman's whole deal is that it's the, it's like a play about the American dream about like, and the main character, Willie Lomer is just, the most pathetic guy who's just not accomplished anything he's ever wanted to do in his life.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, it's,
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And he commits suicide at the end.
24:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he commits suicide and because he thinks it's the only good thing he can ever do for his family.
24:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, and we're not, we're not talking, it's not even a parody of the name.
24:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this character's name is Willy Lomer.
24:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's the same name, but they later change it to then home because of the German piece.
24:33
[SPEAKER_01]: All my notes, all my notes list him as Willie.
24:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I just referred to Masterman as Willie the whole time.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: He would have changed his name to that because he's just like that kind of like gross like American who like is to into like not cease to I mean any inton Aussie stuff is too much of it.
24:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, any about so his strength apparently in this issue is ten times stronger
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Hitler is annoyed.
24:59
[SPEAKER_02]: He's all flopped sweat and raised fists.
25:01
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, by the end of the war, you guys Hitler was like not doing great.
25:05
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking like the last days of Elvis Presley kind of not great.
25:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he might die on a toilet one day, not great.
25:11
[SPEAKER_02]: He's injecting drugs and not sleeping and like he's a mess at this point.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So we see him, you know, there's like a lot of footage of him toward the end of the war looking like this.
25:21
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just ranting.
25:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't cough.
25:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Would you destroy on my beautiful breakfast garden in a meaningfully displayed meaning this display of brute strength because Masterman punched down a wall?
25:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You may be the ultimate product to date of Nazi science, but you're still under my command.
25:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Hitler hits Captain America with a rolled up comic book.
25:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Ed brags more about Nazis, and then warrior woman also hits.
25:42
[SPEAKER_02]: The captive comic book guy that they got she hits him with a rolled-up comic book as well, and he's like And it just can't hurt that much.
25:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
25:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, she goes by and like her nickname is Model Rapcil or Fral Rapcil R-A-T-Z-E-L despite the fact that her real name is Julia Carnig
25:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And she also goes by Madam Mystery.
26:01
[SPEAKER_02]: She uses her whip to hypnotize the captive soldier into telling the truth.
26:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And then she gets some intel that she hopes will help with their new Super Soldier serum.
26:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But then she decides to use it on her self first.
26:15
[SPEAKER_02]: But first, she has to fight off a Hitler sympathizer.
26:17
[SPEAKER_02]: She says, that helpment is capped in, by the way, in German.
26:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I've always loved men, hair-hopped men, men with that smog heir of superiority, but now I should make a place in that world for myself.
26:29
[SPEAKER_02]: There's an explosion, and she gets the serum that they stole from the information from the comic book at a wet anyway, whether it's like she's now like a superwoman.
26:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So she's super strong, super durable, and all buff and
26:42
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, all that.
26:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So that she's the Nazi ideal for women who, by the way, hitler just taught women, should only belong in the kitchen or like with the children or in the church.
26:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's there's some famous quotes, not they didn't like women very much.
26:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember that?
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was interesting to me that she like becomes a warrior, but then in the comic it's emphasized like women should like just be like mothers and like raising children and stuff.
27:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, okay, that is an interesting contradiction.
27:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, women could be spies, but they were not soldiers.
27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there was there was some very strict rules about that.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's I think the thing I find most frustrating about warrior women is that she's her whole character is meant to be this like, I mean, one, you can tell what kind of porn Roy Thomas was consuming at the time.
27:26
[SPEAKER_01]: but also like her whole thing is that she hates, she's she's the embodiment of that like member of a minority population who joins a like fascist movement because they think it's gonna give them power and then just gets like continuously shut down by the it's like she's like, she's like Mrs. Waterford in the handmaids too.
27:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she thinks it's gonna give her power and instead she just gets shut down by all these men all the time.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are moments where you're almost like, oh, I feel bad for her.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: These men are being so psyched.
27:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're like, oh, yeah, she's a literal Nazi.
27:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I have a little sympathy for her, not for any of the men, but yeah, she's a terrible fucking person.
28:03
[SPEAKER_02]: So the invaders escape, it literally runs away.
28:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman fights, warrior woman enters with a huge hose to douse the flames of the human torch and torrent.
28:12
[SPEAKER_02]: What the devil says, torrent?
28:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's no creature of Christian superstition, which has failed you, Americana, she says.
28:18
[SPEAKER_02]: But the successor to the proud Valkyries of Tutonic Legend, I am Krieger Frau, in your decadent tongue, warrior woman.
28:27
[SPEAKER_02]: The human torch says, I've never hit a women before, but you're standing between us and the greatest mass murderer of the world is ever likely to know.
28:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And remember, at the Marvel Universe, the human torch is the one that kills it off Hitler.
28:38
[SPEAKER_02]: A warrior woman gives a sighto to Hitler beats the shit out of the invaders, and then stands with Hitler as he announces his plans to publicly execute the invaders in Berlin.
28:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We jump to issue 18.
28:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Warrior woman makes sure that Edolf Hitler knows that she is serving his cause, but that she created herself.
28:55
[SPEAKER_02]: She is a self-made woman.
28:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But Hitler's very first command when he sees her is that she will marry Masterman.
29:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Think what it will mean to the 1,000 year rike when it's too much splendid, organs are married.
29:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Mastermen says, but of course it's perfect, I've children will be the start of and worry her woman replies, of nothing off.
29:16
[SPEAKER_02]: There would be no marriage, Hitler.
29:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you, did you say woman that you are defying me?
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You know I am yours to command my future, but this is so unexpected.
29:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I must be alone to think.
29:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It also says, you see just like our women y'all, she must pretend the choice is hers.
29:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh fuck you man, wait for so many reasons, but fuck you for that.
29:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we jumped in 19th, 19th through 21.
29:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Hillary is ready to host the marriage of Masterman and warrior women and execute the invaders at the same time.
29:45
[SPEAKER_02]: What a great Batman 60's super plot.
29:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
29:48
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are superheroes everywhere, and Julia really doesn't wanna get married to this man, and it will hum really does.
29:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's almost comical.
29:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It's Nazi comedy, because we have that all over a comic books.
30:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Hitler frees from the battle, and he's like, okay, but you're married now, that's it.
30:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye, and Warrior Woman battles.
30:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Spitfire, Masterman fights the sub-mariner Union.
30:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Jack is here, dynamite is here in the sexiest little gay costume.
30:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman, a warrior woman, realized that Hitler's personal bomber plane has been taken over.
30:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman says, someone has come and de-edit, and is hoping to help the verdant invaders escape cum-leabchen.
30:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We would destroy it together, and you know this woman does not want to be called leabchen by this man.
30:30
[SPEAKER_02]: She says, I cannot!
30:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Because some reason my legs are not so strong as yours to leap so high.
30:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But curled those above and perhaps I should consider you to be my husband after all.
30:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So he leaps into the air and gets shot back down and she runs away at the end.
30:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's terrible, you guys know it's really funny.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I hadn't thought of like, masterman as gay at all, but like, it is striking how he doesn't have like sexual interest under until Hitler is like, you guys should get married.
31:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he's like, oh yeah, that would be great.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I see that, but like, she, it, I really am in like Roy Thomas hate mode here because it is like, like having like this, uh, like not see character and then also like kind of making her like a character of like a feminist and a lesbian in her like,
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Man hating this, where I'm like, okay, pal, I don't know if this was the best idea for you to do.
31:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I really need this word with affection, but she's given real die-energy, and Roy Thomas does not like a die.
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, and it, she does have, like, she definitely has more interiority than Master Man, and that is, um,
31:43
[SPEAKER_00]: interesting.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it is interesting to see how she embraces Naziism but then she hates one like that is like turned on her where she's very like I never thought they would do this to me.
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is an interesting thing for this story to explore a little bit.
32:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we could really get away with like doing this kind of story these days, even if we're portraying Hitler as a joke, which this story clearly is, it's just not, it's just not politically correct to put it on the page.
32:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But this was written before I was born as a comedy, it's written as like these are stupid fuckers, but it's funny.
32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Funny, it really is funny in parts.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: The, it just, it takes away any real threat of warrior woman as a villain when she obeys a character who's written the way Hitler is written in this.
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, she's just kind of ineffectual.
32:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, a lot of it is just that like Roy Thomas wanted to put a Nazi dominatrix in his comic and didn't really put any real further thought into it other than like powerful woman as bad.
32:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So this woman has a very terrible ideals about anyone not white.
32:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's part of her belief structure.
32:48
[SPEAKER_02]: She's got this west corner arm.
32:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But you almost have to wonder if she's just like, she's trying to make it in a man's world.
32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And she thought that this would get her a place at the table.
32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the first order is you're getting married to that fucker over there.
32:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Is like the ending where she just runs away and made me smile really huge.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a number of American politicians.
33:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You could probably point to and be like this.
33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:07
[SPEAKER_01]: This woman reminds me of her little
33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you could make an interesting story out of these points and I think Roy Thomas does not like quite have the dexterity to do that but it it really like gets on my nerve like how much she's like muscular and like masculine looking or I'm like what I want to stand her because and I just like want there to be because like she fights spitfire and like that is fun I think um to see like
33:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Sputfire, everyone is like the very well to do British woman think of like Mary from like Downton Abbey, but she's half vampire.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know about the half vampire part.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, interesting.
33:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But like it's fun to see like a good female hero like.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm beat up like a bad one, but like Spitfire is like very like petite and curvy and I'm like I want there to be like a like a like a bigger like muscular like maybe more masculine like super hero woman who's like a good guy like I want that Yeah, and just to put a firm stance in place Roy Thomas is not an authorized voice in the 1970s to be writing about topics like second wave feminism It just doesn't yeah
34:17
[SPEAKER_00]: She did the Avengers issue with Valkyrie, right?
34:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the Lady Liberators or whatever?
34:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and think I thought a bunch of times when I was reading this is how much I would love to see Warrior Woman get her butt kicked by Friendsie by Joanne Akarro.
34:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes.
34:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was also thinking like Friendsie, whereas similar clothing.
34:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, it's cool when she does it.
34:42
[SPEAKER_01]: the other seven foot dominatrix.
34:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see this.
34:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, she's back and invaders 34.
34:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll cover this section quickly.
34:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman versus Union Jack, uh, gravel at the feet of the true urban bench, the triumph of German technology in the vanquisher, both the destroyer and the overrated Union Jack.
34:59
[SPEAKER_02]: He loses on a skips.
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: He in 441, it's the ending of the Invaders series.
35:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where the whole series ends.
35:06
[SPEAKER_02]: The Invaders are fighting Lady Lotus, who is a very problematic Asian stereotype like Dragon Lady character.
35:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We just don't have time today.
35:15
[SPEAKER_02]: But she's assembled a group including Baron Blood, who is the Nazi British vampire bat guy.
35:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Mastermen and warrior women.
35:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So they all have a literate names.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: and they are fighting the invaders.
35:31
[SPEAKER_02]: You man is here, Lady Lotus forms a group called the Super Access, which is crazy to me.
35:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Warrior woman says, my abilities are only to deaf you.
35:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not some willowy-limmed female Japanese.
35:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And now the seductors who cause herself, Lady Lotus shall, but Lady Lotus uses hypnosis to make Warrior woman see her whip transform into a snake and a attacker.
35:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So she is thus subdued.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Then she does the same thing without hands.
35:59
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so like, like, fally and insane.
36:03
[SPEAKER_02]: She had a whole, she had a hose in the previous mode.
36:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
36:06
[SPEAKER_02]: She also hypnotizes Master Man.
36:08
[SPEAKER_02]: She makes him see monsters, versions of the invaders.
36:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Then Super Access attacks a nuclear base in Chicago.
36:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Master Man and Warrior Woman derail a train.
36:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Master Man says, you see my sweet alone.
36:19
[SPEAKER_02]: We have done much in the service of our future.
36:21
[SPEAKER_02]: But joy with you, man, and the vampire, we are invincible.
36:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And she replies, Idiot!
36:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You battle like some member of an inferior race.
36:30
[SPEAKER_02]: In truth, we had no more than puppets dancing to the strings of that shape they Japanese and her private thoughts, she thinks of Lady Lotus quote, whimpering before my feet.
36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're giving real dominatrix girl crush energy here.
36:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It's intense, but also she's talking about inferior races.
36:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So you kind of like her, but also a fuck her very much.
36:50
[SPEAKER_02]: The invaders attack.
36:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And this America flies at warrior women and wizard to and warrior women's knocked out
36:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It says, maybe it's about time these crumbs started paying their dues cap and all start the collecting by introducing myself to Miss Deutschland in 1942.
37:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Love it.
37:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Namor takes out Masterman who gets the sexiest little limp-rusted squat pose on a railroad track in this issue looking up.
37:14
[SPEAKER_02]: He is looking so gay.
37:15
[SPEAKER_02]: There is one more big fight scene at the county fair.
37:17
[SPEAKER_01]: and the bad guys again get defeated and arrested and they walk into the police wagon masterments says after you in mind sweet hot and warrior women replies do not even speak to me you doom cough there is a lot happening here the scene of the mall getting brought into the into just an ordinary police wagon is so funny yeah no it's it's a weird one why are there why are there never any um they every time they do when they these were were two stories and they have all these like access powers come to like superpowers come together there's never
37:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if that's just because it was like 70s New York City and there's one one there's one in there's one in the red skulls like group of old man exiles that live on that your island there isn't a tired guy there and and part of part of agent act because agent accesses three guys combined into one guy and one one's Japanese one's German and one's Italian but other than that like they really never they really never have an Italian supervillain
38:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Priya, do you have any thoughts on the lady lotus warrior woman relationship?
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, um, so I need everyone to know that these issues on Marvel unlimited, like, are preface with, like, they're warning for, like, there's some really racist stuff here that it wasn't okay, but we are presenting it how it was, like, to be, like, historically accurate because lady lotus is just, like, so, like, such a, like, racist caricature.
38:41
[SPEAKER_00]: and she's also like bully like extremely blatantly like lesbian.
38:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like shocked that like at how like blatant it is like she is like like creeping on her like female like a servant and stuff.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm also like she's like I just like want to like stand her but I'm like
39:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't, she literally is like a Japanese imperialist.
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Lady Lotus is the primary threat through a run of Avengers Spotlight and later Wonderman comics in the 90s, as well as the villain in the Avengers to Wonderman in the beast limited series.
39:18
[SPEAKER_02]: She most recently showed up in the Marvels for all 12 issues.
39:21
[SPEAKER_02]: She was like a featured villain.
39:22
[SPEAKER_02]: This woman has over 40 appearances.
39:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Certainly worthy of Patreon sometime.
39:27
[SPEAKER_02]: That that Marvel series?
39:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I would not.
39:29
[SPEAKER_00]: have brought her back in this decade.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that I'm astonished that they did that.
39:35
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been some care given by more modern writers.
39:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But Marvel series, that Marvel series you mentioned, does a lot to kind of completely like retconned who she is and what's excellent.
39:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's deep that move that series is deep and continuity, but it's actually quite excellent.
39:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all over the place.
39:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let me turn it over to Theo for this next section of comics because everything changes when we get to John Burns' name more.
40:01
[SPEAKER_01]: John Burns' name more.
40:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I had actually not ever read this.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to thank you for having like a lot of comic fans.
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a complicated relationship with John Burns.
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The Nama Rita of a loan is worth the journey.
40:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I'm so glad I read this though because I had so much fun with it There's I like there's stuff in there that I wasn't thrilled about but like I want to read more of this But like because this is some of like the best John burn art that I've seen before.
40:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I was surprised
40:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember that time that Neymor took a full supervillain named the Griffin and turned him in his into his steed and rode him around for several issues?
40:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, that happens.
40:37
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole series is just like boardroom drama.
40:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, see all the villains are like, it's evil CO twins.
40:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see you with a head hunter.
40:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And my Mars, Phoebe Mars, and a head hunter, or fucking great.
40:49
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a head of fun.
40:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a fun series.
40:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm obsessed with head hunter.
40:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so obsessed with headhunter as well, like her design is perfect.
40:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The like concept is perfect.
41:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I Wow, she's the me touching the series when we did the hill three episode like the plant monsters But yeah, I really enjoy this one.
41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, please continue to do it.
41:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah headhunter being a mutant too like makes her somebody that should get more Focus on this
41:15
[SPEAKER_01]: flagged on my like hey do a patreon list i promise she's on there because she's she's got like such a like gender non-conforming look she's got the like crazy stuff she's got powers going on she's got the weirdest plans and like she's so great but we're not talking about headhunter i got a i gotta focus on the
41:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But no, so, and, and, and, and more of the sub-mariner nine, we get brought it into, uh, Masterman reappearing and kidnapping.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: There was Jim Hammond, the original human torch, and Anne Raymond, who was Toro's wife, kidnapped them in California.
41:46
[SPEAKER_01]: In the most non-descript look, which involves a literal leather strap with a buckle around his neck.
41:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That says, like, in civilian disguises, involves a full-length
41:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And we learned in 10, 11, and 12 so far that the wall just came down in Germany, West Berlin and East Berlin are now reunited.
42:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And before the war, Baron Strucker had seen the writing on the wall and decided to set up cryogenic facilities to store away masterman and warrior woman for like future attempts at taking over the world.
42:20
[SPEAKER_01]: He had Willie, Frozen, and West Berlin, where Nazi doctors could continue to maintain the equipment and keep him like preserved.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: All of the stories we've been reviewing for these characters thus far were set in World War II.
42:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is the one that brings them to the modern age, every right.
42:33
[SPEAKER_01]: We learned that they had been in cryogenic storage.
42:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So like that's why they're suddenly here in present day.
42:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But Warrior Woman had been stored away in a facility that ended up being East Berlin.
42:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So she was completely unsupervised during those decades.
42:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And the machines had like failures and they have worried they were worried about bringing her back because they think she may have like undergone some like brain damage.
42:55
[SPEAKER_01]: and they want to kidnap the human torch to use his blood to help revive her for reasons.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So they send master, they revive master man, he goes in kidnapped the human torch and and Raymond, who he could nexus as incentive to get Jim to do what they want him to do.
43:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Turns out the the guy behind this all is a German businessman who wants to kind of take over the newly re-unified Germany named Axel knock.
43:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And because, again, this is a boardroom trauma, so all the villains have to be businessmen.
43:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and turns out his plan is actually, he wants to kind of remove Willie from the picture and just seduce warrior woman and replay be the new masterman.
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So, he sends masterman to go fight name or, and, but sabotages it so that his powers fail him in the middle of the fight and he ends up reduced back down to the 90-pound weakling.
43:40
[SPEAKER_01]: While warrior woman is revived, but she's not quite herself, she's like more passive because of the issues with the cryogenic storage.
43:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So she's like receptive to Axel Nox seduction, it's really, it's, I mean, the basic story is we have a young Nazi who has found the cryogenic tanks for the ancient soldiers and he really wants to fuck warrior women.
44:00
[SPEAKER_02]: He has a thing for this woman.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: He says like ever since he was a child, which is crazy.
44:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted you forever and I, oh my god, I'm thinking of that like really awful Nazi woman from the boys that was like fucking homelander.
44:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh good Lord, this is
44:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.
44:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, please, please, please, please.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically, just up up, they, they had been put in cryogenic storage and they were being brought back by oxlynok because he was obsessed with warrior woman and wants to take over Germany and be the new masterman part of the sabotage results in masterman becoming just the 90 pound weakling willy again.
44:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fun, it's a really fun story.
44:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like again, like this, this series is so much fun, but we get to see Warrior Woman get beat up by Namerita, which is great.
44:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But then Willy, who's super mad about his lost powers and being replaced by knocked and the rejection from Julia and all that, decides to blow up the lab and all the good guys escape.
44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: But the three bad guys, we don't, we don't find their bodies.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: They're left.
44:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a mystery is what happened to Willy and knocked and Julia.
45:01
[SPEAKER_01]: that's more or less just what the story of it's a whole story that like establishes that they're all in the present day again.
45:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the story where spit fires like an old lady but then she becomes like a 16-year-old girl again which is like John Bern, but got a stop doing this.
45:18
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that they refer to her as being returned to the prime of her life.
45:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And if her physical prime is what they say and her physical prime is
45:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Becky was 16 to so the annual doesn't actually have any real feature from them.
45:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, um, it's just one of, name or supporting cast reading like a computer file.
45:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's not 10 list of worst folks.
45:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's just a carry Alexander or Cassie Alexander reading like about who they were.
45:47
[SPEAKER_01]: but a Marvel Comics presents 123 is a really, really weird story.
45:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't entirely know why they wrote it.
45:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's so bizarre, but it's basically, it's a story about a meeting.
46:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So after the explosion that Willie sets off, he ends up in a hospital admitted to a hospital as a John Doe covered in burns and he's like dying in this hospital.
46:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And for some reason, there's a nurse in the hospital who's getting like psychic flashes of his memory, he's in his like dying thoughts and she like writes it all in a diary.
46:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So the whole story is this dire entry by this nurse who's the only person in the hospital who knows that this is Masterman who's dying in the bed.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And we get flashbacks, there's memories, we get him fighting cap, we learn that he had an abusive mother, him being accepted and then rejected by the Red Skull and by Axel Nox stealing Julia away from him, all his failures, all his rejections.
46:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in his dying moments, he starts feeling like guilt for all the death that he and the Nazis caused.
46:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's just really pathetic in the nurse basically takes pity on him because of how pathetic he is and declines to like reveal his identity to anyone else.
46:51
[SPEAKER_01]: never explained why she's getting these visions or what's happening.
46:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just this strange story about like this nurse experiencing all of Masterman's dying thoughts in in this hospital.
47:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And they also specified that it's at the lower east side of Berlin, which I thought was fun going back to like the foil with Captain America, because Captain America is from the lower east side of Manhattan, so they specify that Masterman dies in the lower east side of Berlin.
47:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's dead, well, we'll talk about it.
47:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to jump to any more annual two very quickly.
47:20
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a backup story called Namor's Top 10 Villards.
47:23
[SPEAKER_02]: This was a running gag in the annuals.
47:24
[SPEAKER_02]: There's an ally of Namor's just skirting through the list.
47:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love every one of these characters.
47:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Number 10 in his Top 10.
47:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Lyra, who I've profiled.
47:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Number nine, Dr. Dorcus, who's amazing.
47:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Number eight, plant man, who I've profiled.
47:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Number seven, head hudder, who we just talked about loving.
47:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Six is Masterman and Warrior Woman, and the reason this is so fucking funny is the image that is drawn for these characters in this little shot.
47:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Warrior Woman is in her like sexy thing.
47:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And like Masterman is like grabbing her shoulder from behind and like a leather coat.
47:55
[SPEAKER_02]: A Master Knight in front of her or Axel Noct has his like hand on a stomach and he's like ready to kiss her.
48:01
[SPEAKER_02]: They look like they're about to have a three sum and it's a really funny that they chose this three images.
48:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Number five is Master Kahn, who is a problematic Asian stereotypical character.
48:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Four is Tiger Shark, who I love, three is Warlord Kran, who I love.
48:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Two is a tomb of who I love.
48:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And number one are the twins, Desmond, and Phoebe Mars, who I could not talk about enough.
48:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, this whole top ten list is fucking great.
48:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a fantastic.
48:24
[SPEAKER_00]: John Burn is never really a good writer in my opinion, but it's like it's readable.
48:30
[SPEAKER_00]: comics, I guess, and I am just like a very little bar.
48:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing, I fully had hunter just kind of like took over this series in my mind, and I'm just like where is her solo?
48:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Priyatekas to Captain America annual 2001.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this was a very strange story where Captain America is telling President George W. Bush about like a secret adventure that he had back in the day, like the invaders days, where like they're like on a boat and masterman, I think like the red skull isn't or no Baron Zemo, I think is in charge and uh,
49:10
[SPEAKER_00]: like master man and more women are there and they're like we are going to kidnap name more so that we can take over Atlantis but they mess that up and they can kidnap Captain America instead and they're like well maybe he knows what Atlantis is so they kind of just like put him in jail on their submarine and uh Captain America talks to this Russian spy who's also there like being spies I guess
49:35
[SPEAKER_00]: and Captain America is like, America is great.
49:39
[SPEAKER_00]: The American government would never desert their spies and would never, they would totally rescue them.
49:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then he like breaks out of jail, I think, or they like taken out and he kind of like beats up the bad guys and the invaders come up and they also beat up the bad guys.
49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: and they save the Russian lady and then she we find out in the present that she eventually moved to the U.S. Captain America like sensor like I think you let her in the mail many years later because like this story had been totally forgotten by everybody but he is remembering it.
50:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have kind of a banger of an issue.
50:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a dense read, but Captain America, the Medusa, effect.
50:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I really like this issue.
50:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Surprisingly good.
50:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit longer.
50:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was one of those like original graphic novels.
50:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a story where it starts with Tesla being...
50:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The cola Tesla, like the famous science?
50:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
50:38
[SPEAKER_00]: He like dies in his bed as like a Nazi steals these blue prints that he had for this weapon that would shoot
50:45
[SPEAKER_00]: planes out of the sky and so Captain America and Bucky are there but they can't stop the theft and they can't stop him from dying and they're like well this is bad but they find like a correspondence a letter that he had received from a woman and they're like we need to track down this woman maybe she can help us so they go to Spain and it turns out that this woman
51:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I didn't totally understand why she faked.
51:16
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a scene where she like kisses Captain America By the way, right Tom, this is writing again everyone.
51:21
[SPEAKER_02]: A few were unaware.
51:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's 1994.
51:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he like because it's a longer story.
51:27
[SPEAKER_00]: He kind of takes his time in the pacing and stuff, which I think is good.
51:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Lucky gets like a nice moment where he gets to kind of show off.
51:36
[SPEAKER_00]: which are not like sure if we like we get to see him like be like a cool teen hero and he like tries to help Demos on the Zemos on his like a Hitler youth and his terrible
51:47
[SPEAKER_00]: and he like runs away and they're like, well, that's great.
51:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it was good.
51:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And listen, I really want you to understand like how deep this runs in our comics.
51:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, are you feeling a little overwhelmed?
51:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Because now we're going to jump to X-Men in the 90s in that incredible long cable run.
52:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman shows up.
52:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So jump to cable 51-52 cable is with Irene Mary Weather and they are fighting the Hellfire Club in the Alps.
52:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about it.
52:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole story.
52:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Cables like to get this like future.
52:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm the savior of mankind, whole thing, and there's time travelers fucking all over the place.
52:20
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a long run story like under Lydron.
52:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's this is an excellent run of cable comics.
52:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this run.
52:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's long, too.
52:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so they meet in the Alps, an old man named Vittelheim, who shows the heroes back to his ancestral estate, which is a beautiful castle with a mountain backdrop in the Alps.
52:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, by the way, Hitler, I've built a huge home in the Alps called the Eagles Nest.
52:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been there.
52:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the most beautiful places that have ever been in the whole Feynman world.
52:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like a Nazi stronghold that was built as like a vacation house up there.
52:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still there.
52:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, Wilhelm explains, I acquired this house soon after the war.
52:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I found this surroundings to be a welcome change from the scarred battlefields of the rest of Europe.
52:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Living here helps me find peace of mind.
52:59
[SPEAKER_02]: For those of us who have experienced firsthand the horrors of war, finding that peace can be quite a challenge.
53:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we both know better than to confuse the search for inner peace with the desire to forget.
53:09
[SPEAKER_02]: No, we must never forget the things we've done as much as we might wish to.
53:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And Wilhelm claims that he's a follower of cables like New Religia, his little safe houses all over the world, and he's been helping promote the mutant Messiah's cause around the world.
53:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, there are many stories of Nazi work criminals who have aided justice and went on to live long lives.
53:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about some of them on the show in the Red School conversations.
53:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Kable is immediately suspicious of Wilhelm reads his mind without authorization, and it even comments on the ethics of it.
53:40
[SPEAKER_02]: But he ends up seeing an on-rush of burning, horrible images of war, fights with the invaders.
53:45
[SPEAKER_02]: He realizes this is Masterman.
53:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He confronts him directly.
53:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's time Wilhelm, time for you to face the consequences of your actions,
53:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Actions and atrocities committed years ago for which you've never had to answer will no longer.
53:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It's time to face the truth of your identity.
54:01
[SPEAKER_02]: If you are indeed a believer, then you must know that nothing can remain hidden from me for very long.
54:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't outrun from your past will home or should I refer to you as Masterman, Nazi super criminal and Hitler's personal lap dog.
54:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You are one of the most wanted men alive.
54:16
[SPEAKER_02]: You did your damage during World War II, and have scarcely been seen since.
54:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone assumed you were dead, turns out you'd been hiding here, living off the richest plumbered from the week and helpless half a century ago.
54:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You've never been held accountable for the crimes you've committed.
54:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Never had to answer for your sins, and never been forced to look into the eyes of the children whose parents you murdered.
54:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you, Kate, for taking this fucking seriously, finally in a comic book.
54:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman makes excuses.
54:44
[SPEAKER_02]: In my youth, I was not the most well-educated of individuals.
54:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I was easily seduced by the third Reich's promise of power and beauty.
54:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Like many others, I was a weak-minded fool.
54:54
[SPEAKER_02]: As a poor-pathetic boy, I was the proverbial ugly duckling.
54:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I gladly took part in the secret government experimentes, experiments that led to my rebirth.
55:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I was no longer virulham loma.
55:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I was the older-man, master-man.
55:07
[SPEAKER_02]: At my side was Krieger-frau warrior woman.
55:10
[SPEAKER_02]: My intended mate and object of my unrequited love.
55:14
[SPEAKER_02]: The war years were glorious time, but our induction into the present era was less than successful.
55:20
[SPEAKER_02]: In a heat of battle, my powers failed me, my love spurned me, I chose to end my life.
55:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Even then, I met with failure, I didn't die.
55:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I was blown into the Suez of Berlin.
55:32
[SPEAKER_02]: What little of the super-sortral serum that remained in my body kept me alive, however my true age soon became apparent.
55:39
[SPEAKER_02]: My career as masterman had ended, it was a blessing.
55:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not proud of my past.
55:44
[SPEAKER_02]: The men raised haunt me to this day, as long as I live, I will bear the weight of that burden.
55:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I am ashamed, living in my castle and the Alps by myself, I added that light.
55:53
[SPEAKER_02]: My heart is as heavy as my sorrow is deep.
55:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I cannot begin to describe and cable says what I am thinking at this point.
56:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Enough!
56:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you truly believe the fact that your sorry can erase the countless lives you've undoubtedly destroyed?
56:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course not, and I found no peace in death.
56:09
[SPEAKER_02]: and he claims the believing in cable now is given him a hope for a different kind of future and then the Hellfire Club attacks, and they burn the castle down, and Wilhelm intercepts a shot meant for cable.
56:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So later as his home is burning, he's dying in the snow, giving his best like little fall of rain and pressure from Limissarab.
56:29
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how it should be, I suppose, and cable crales has had try not to speak lie still.
56:35
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just beginning to feel as though I could erase the sins of my past.
56:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me tell you something always remember your actions will define your legacy.
56:44
[SPEAKER_02]: The deeds that you will be remembered for have just begun.
56:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Consider them carefully, make them count.
56:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Be the hero.
56:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We believe you to be... T-t-t-t-t Julia.
56:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And he dies.
56:58
[SPEAKER_00]: She does not enjoy it.
57:01
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't even like him.
57:02
[SPEAKER_02]: People bury his masterman and has a private little vigil for him.
57:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And wow, this fucking story.
57:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So as somebody who over-identifies with Rachel Summers, I have a lot of love for this cable run.
57:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Because she's such a big character in this series.
57:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
57:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a good, it's a really good run.
57:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even that big of fan of cable and I still love this run.
57:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And but this thing, it's just, it's so weird that they keep trying to give masterman like a like poet extent off.
57:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's, I think it's just because he's named Willie Lomer.
57:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think the fact that he's like a reference.
57:34
[SPEAKER_01]: His name is a reference to death of a salesman is the only reason they keep doing this because I don't know why else we have multiple stories about him like feeling guilty as he dies.
57:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the idea of like, here's the sky that used to be really scary, and now he's just this withered up old man living and hiding.
57:49
[SPEAKER_02]: The problem I have with it, it gives him so many words as he tries to explain why what he did was fine.
57:57
[SPEAKER_02]: We cut that in half, and I think the story is pretty funny, actually.
58:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is cable, I don't know, running his business.
58:03
[SPEAKER_02]: He finds this follower and holds him accountable.
58:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, it's interesting, but
58:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just kind of bonkers to see cable interact with this character or like this side of the Marvel universe.
58:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like not what I think of.
58:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it's odd that they want to like give master a man this interiority that he like really never had.
58:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he, he just kind of is there because he loves violence and like he, I do, I think I do understand,
58:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Point in time like wanting to like think about like what do like Nazis who are now like old or like who grew old and are like have to like live with what they did like what are those people thinking like I think that makes sense to like be curious about that Yeah, there's a certain amount of though like I don't know he's like I couldn't even kill myself So I just am living here suffering like I've suffered more than anyone like it's there's no remorse.
59:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just it's his own fucking comfort like fuck this guy
59:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Jumping to Weapon X, Volume 2, Number 14, this is the front teary run.
59:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I hate this issue, but this is where we learned that Mr. Sinister was like a geneticist in the concentration camps.
59:15
[SPEAKER_02]: He also was present during a battle between Masterman and Neymor.
59:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, both Apocalypse and Sinister have fucked with Neymor's DNA in different stories.
59:23
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't talk about them much, but that has happened.
59:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We jumped at Captain America volume five, number five.
59:28
[SPEAKER_02]: We see Masterman saving the Red Skull in an old conflict.
59:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We jumped at Captain America, a few issues later, 18 through 21.
59:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Where Red Skull, and I love this run on comics too, this is at Brew Baker's Captain America, it's excellent.
59:40
[SPEAKER_02]: He's living inside the body of Aleksandr Luchin, I'm not going to explain.
59:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And he recruits Max Lomer, who's the nephew of Villa home Lomer.
59:48
[SPEAKER_02]: in Hamburg.
59:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is like a modern Aryan, like a little fucking punk.
59:54
[SPEAKER_02]: He's terrible, awful, like a little white supremacist German character, Max Lomer.
59:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Max has been beating up immigrants, and now the Red Skull turns him into a new masterman, and he has a little gang of racist
1:00:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Captain America, Union Jack, and Spitfire, kick their asses.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Masterman and Captain to battle on a Zeppelin.
1:00:13
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got a bunch of rage issues.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We get a new masterman because that's what we needed.
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, we got to tell Captain America stories.
1:00:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the ProBaker Captain America run as a classic for a reason.
1:00:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really good.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the winter soldier run.
1:00:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it's very good.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like updating Masterman to being like a modern day, Neo Nazi, who's beating up immigrants in the street.
1:00:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it makes a lot of sense.
1:00:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, feel it, will you take us to the next appearance, which is your favorite new invaders?
1:00:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so as I alluded to before, new invaders as a comic I have read before, it's definitely not one of my favorite comic runs.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_01]: From 2004 and it's very, very post 9-11, it basically reimagines the invaders as a modern day like.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_01]: like secret operative group who are like overthrowing governments in the Middle East and things like that that the main like antagonist of it is a sport a group called the Axis Mundi.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_01]: They're run by Axel Noctin warrior woman who we mentioned, who from the name or book, but they there have this army of synthetic like flying like minions called terrorists with a silent pee like territorial.
1:01:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Who they are using to like take over to like effect oil producing middle Eastern countries John Walker is in charge Yeah, very like this is Alan Jacobson and CP Smith The I don't know this is really fun and the the thing I like most about this series It's that it gives room for characters like blazing skull and thin man who are not normally part of the ensemble It's not your typical like cap name working in torch book.
1:01:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's fun in that way, but yes, it's there's a lot of like oh no
1:01:45
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the run that makes it that establishes that like you man is like a serial rapist and like they they white they like genocide off an entire the entire like secret society that gave them man his powers and stuff like that it's just it's very 2004 it's very like that kind of edgy like John Walker's got all these like lines that could be said directly by like the ultimate captain america at the time like it was it's just very much
1:02:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He carries around a shield that has the American victims of terror attacks written on it like it's it's such a thing of its time, but anyways that beyond it beyond topic actually, yeah, so they're fighting they're dealing with the access Monday who have like you man and acts or not and and like Baroness blood and all of them who are
1:02:31
[SPEAKER_01]: and they get ambush on their headquarter ship, the invaders do, and warrior woman.
1:02:36
[SPEAKER_01]: This is probably, I think, in like straight success, this is probably warrior woman's most successful fight and like all of comics, because she beats John Walker to a bloody pulp.
1:02:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Then turns on Union Jack, who she like nearly castrates before access Mondia's like forcefully teleported away, like this is the most scary warrior woman has been depicted in any in any comic.
1:02:57
[SPEAKER_01]: She really just does not let up in the fight and is
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But she's not a gag here anymore.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
1:03:03
[SPEAKER_01]: She's actually treated like a real threat.
1:03:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I got to give it that.
1:03:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And that takes place over the course of new invaders two and three, where the access Monday are invading their ship and fighting fighting the invaders.
1:03:15
[SPEAKER_01]: This is modern day invaders, by the way, that I don't know if I specified that.
1:03:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all the characters kind of like it's the modern day union jack and the DH Spitfire and the USA agent John Walker
1:03:26
[SPEAKER_01]: After they get teleported away though, we don't really see them again until the 6th issue where they have approached Baron Zemo and Hydro to be their ally and get rejected by Baron Zemo.
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the extent of their appearance in that series is one extended fight scene and then them getting rejected by Hydro.
1:03:43
[SPEAKER_02]: We get more World War II flashbacks, Black Panther volume four, number 21.
1:03:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Show us masterman, get his face burned and an invaders battle.
1:03:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where we get to see warrior women in her swastika bra.
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to call it a brostika.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the official terminology for the swastika bra.
1:04:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't recommend buying one, anybody.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_02]: In Captain America, volume five, number 50, we get another flashback to them fighting Bucky in the war.
1:04:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And another one, a Captain America, Reborn number two, then we get,
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Reginald Hudlins Black Panther Captain America flags of our fathers limited series.
1:04:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to, we're just going to scare past it.
1:04:20
[SPEAKER_02]: This is, there's a lot of violence against Black people written by a Black person and it's World War II, but it just doesn't feel okay a lot of time.
1:04:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, Masterman Warrior Woman are invading Wakanda during the war and there is gratuitous torture and violence used against Africans.
1:04:36
[SPEAKER_02]: There's an image where a black man is getting beaten and he drips blood on warrior woman and then master man to get revenge on the man who dripped blood on warrior woman rips the man who blood in half.
1:04:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just rough.
1:04:50
[SPEAKER_02]: The story opens with a full page splash page of Gabe Jones, the black American soldier saying, I hate Nazis.
1:04:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, there's that.
1:04:57
[SPEAKER_02]: They also team up with armless tiger man who is a very problematic character Asian stereotype and a guy named the white gorilla.
1:05:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So guys, I didn't embark with the man ape episode with dotina kondan, or I, well, I, a daily and we didn't bring this guy up.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no warrior or an old warrior or two character called the white gorilla.
1:05:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, anyway, tie him into man A, that's fine.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Warrior woman in this, again, goes far like she gets to write a swastika missile and yell, get B-K-A, and it explodes.
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says the big ones never last as long as they should.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_02]: There are so many racial slurs.
1:05:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Azuz, Azuz, Azuzi, the Black Panther defeats them all with some germ warfare at the end.
1:05:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I did not enjoy rereading this series.
1:05:37
[SPEAKER_02]: It was deeply painful.
1:05:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's jump to Priya for Invader is now, which is another modern Invader's interpretation.
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, we're real quick.
1:05:46
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I do want to say about this series, though, is what I do think is where it does kind of work is that I feel like the main conflict of the book is Gabe Jones being the black American member of Nick Fury's Hall in Camando is being kind of stuck in the middle between like Captain America's idealism and Nick Fury's
1:06:03
[SPEAKER_01]: pragmatism and how like neither of them have the perspective of what it means to be black and what it means to be part of this group and his Well Nick Fury wants him to use the fact that he's black to like kind of betray the condons for the allies good for the good well the allies and
1:06:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And Captain America's the idealist who believes that anything like that would be just as awful as like betraying them and it's just the fact that it gives Gabe Jones so much like in like time to like debate what what it means to be a black American I think in this context I think is what does work about that series.
1:06:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So there is a lot of problems there but I do I do want to kind of defend it a little bit just
1:06:43
[SPEAKER_02]: If it had been written by a white writer, it would be on fucking.
1:06:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, absolutely.
1:06:48
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's still edgy.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't like it.
1:06:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand, but I didn't like it.
1:06:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But before I said invaders now, but I actually meant no.
1:06:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Invaders now.
1:06:56
[SPEAKER_00]: This, it's a mini series.
1:06:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of raw.
1:07:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, there's a theme here, guys.
1:07:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes place in modern day.
1:07:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Invaders now is Christos Gagion, Alex Ross, writing with Kyle Rice on, uh, on the pencils from 2010.
1:07:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Alex Ross does the covers too, which I was kind of shocked to see because it's not like I hadn't like heard of this series I wouldn't have really expected his involvement in it, but it's a story where like the invaders like there's something like there's like a subconscious force that's like bringing them together like the ones who are still alive and then they uh
1:07:35
[SPEAKER_00]: They find out that something like that was like very deep in their past has come back, which there was a biological weapon that had been turned against them, which was the Nazis had made this contagion that would transform people into basically like zombies.
1:07:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That idea was that they would spread the disease to like the human population.
1:08:04
[SPEAKER_00]: and they had no way of curing it so they just like killed all of the towns people who had been infected which they obviously felt really bad about but they were like well we did that and so now in the modern day it turns out that one of the survivors of that who like had been experimented on but like had not contracted the infectious version of the disease it would had just like deformed him a little bit but he had not like been infected fully so he didn't
1:08:33
[SPEAKER_00]: is like an old guy now and he's like really mad, but the invaders killed his whole town.
1:08:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So he is planning, he like re-created the virus and he's planning to set it on the world again unless basically the invaders have to find a cure for it and also maybe give up their lives
1:08:54
[SPEAKER_00]: because this guy is also like a wizard and he's trying to bring back the town.
1:08:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The invaders do like with the help of like read Richards and other scientists.
1:09:02
[SPEAKER_00]: They find a way to cure this and they also are like preparing to like give their lives up to like write this wrong that they had committed many decades ago.
1:09:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But then like the ghosts of those towns people show up and they're like actually
1:09:17
[SPEAKER_00]: you guys need to stay here because you're heroes and we are really disappointed in this guy because that was like a really awful thing to do and so the like wizard guy feels really remorseful but the invaders like
1:09:33
[SPEAKER_00]: don't die.
1:09:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, we really shouldn't have swept this under the rug.
1:09:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's like make a monument to in honor of all the people who died that day.
1:09:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So they make them a memorial and it's kind of nice.
1:09:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think warrior women is in this story because she was in the flashback.
1:09:50
[SPEAKER_00]: She was helping create the the lake by a weapon.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's some punching of her.
1:09:57
[SPEAKER_02]: which is how real name is listed in this series is Freedom Ratsel.
1:10:01
[SPEAKER_02]: No, we know it's Julia Carnigan.
1:10:03
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants Rao Ratsel, but her name is certainly not Freedom Ratsel, because that would make it so much worse.
1:10:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So actually, sorry, I actually have so you had texted before.
1:10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: We had recorded this a while back about asking about Sundeth, the like tabletop RPG.
1:10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, yeah, and I did research into it, including tracking down the magazine that it was in.
1:10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a, I just wanted to point out that her name is listed in this as Frieda Razzle.
1:10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Mmm, but that comes from somewhere.
1:10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, give us a lead into this though.
1:10:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, tell us what it is, how you researched it, et cetera.
1:10:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so if you look on Marvel wiki and things like that in appearances, a lot of the time that it will list something called dragon and appearances, and I did research into this a while back, because in the 80s, apparently, Marvel published a series of table top RPGs.
1:10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: One of them was, I don't know the terms, I don't know a lot about table top RPGs, but they had modules that ran through a storyline about Kang sending heroes through time.
1:11:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of them was set in World War II and had an extension to it or like expansion to it in an issue of a magazine called Dragon.
1:11:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I tracked out an issue of it because you had texted about it curious what it was about.
1:11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had previously read about it in like researching wild less characters because there's one about that too.
1:11:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And it has in it, it has this whole expansion, there's a whole campaign and like stats and like a layout of the thing for sudden dawn that focuses on the liberty legion.
1:11:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And in it includes Nazi villain characters, including Agent Axis and Iron Cross and Masterman and Warrior Woman.
1:11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And interestingly, Warrior Woman's name is listed as free to Ratsul in this.
1:11:42
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I reject it.
1:11:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I reject it.
1:11:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with Ratsul, I hate it.
1:11:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it gives them all stats.
1:11:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So like they both, so Masterman has incredible fighting stats at 40.
1:11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Agility, pen, good, strength, remarkable, 30 endurance, incredible, 40.
1:11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Reason, poor, for intuition, poor, for psyche, poor, for.
1:12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas warrior woman is excellent at 20.
1:12:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Agility, 10, or fighting ability, 20, excellent.
1:12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: agility 10 good, strength incredible 40 endurance incredible 40 reason good 10 intuition good 10 psyche typical six and gives them like abilities and all that and it's I was reading through this beforehand, but This way my listeners who were playing is warrior woman and the old marble RPG from the 80s I would love to hear from you
1:12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want this information, just let me know.
1:12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I have it all here.
1:12:36
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want the official Marvel GrPG stats, there's so many weird little pockets of Marvel lore out there.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's jump over to Captain America 613 through 16.
1:12:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We touched on this in my hate manga, Patreon episode.
1:12:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, guys.
1:12:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I did the hate manga earlier.
1:12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It's month.
1:12:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We've not done Agent X's or the Iron Cross though.
1:12:59
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the continuation of the Brubaker run.
1:13:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Like later on, we come back.
1:13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: The Red Skull has been broken out of prison by Max Lomer, the new masterman.
1:13:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't really get much to do in the storyline.
1:13:10
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just kind of, oh, sorry, the Red Skull's daughter, sin, she goes by Red Skull in the story.
1:13:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little confusing.
1:13:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But Sin is broken out of prison by Masterman.
1:13:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He's joined her side and is basically just her minion throughout the capture Black Widow in Falcon.
1:13:26
[SPEAKER_01]: They strapped them to bombs and put them in the Statue of Liberty.
1:13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And the Bucky Captain America and Steve Rogers.
1:13:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And guys, I'm a Captain America fan.
1:13:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But a little bit of these stories goes a long way.
1:13:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes we need bombs in the Statue of Liberty.
1:13:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Well the big it does lead to it does lead to the big like reveal where they finally beat masterman They beat max and sin and the bombs go off But they rescue everybody and it turns out that the she didn't want to destroy the black it was such a liberty She just wanted to give give her a black eye so it just blows out one of her eyes and that's like the that's like the final bit of this story
1:14:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But over in Avengers, Volume 4 16, Steve Rogers and Sharon Carter beat the shit out of Max Lomer, and all of the old exile Nazi work criminals from exile Island, and fuck all of them, but yeah, the new Nazi and the old Nazis all get beat up together.
1:14:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Then in all new invaders, number 4 guys, there's a lot of invaders series, brief flashbacks to World War II were see, we see, name wars at Lantian Army, beating up Masterman, Warrior Woman, and all of their evil friends.
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: There's another 40s flashback in
1:14:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we close us out on the United States of Captain America.
1:14:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this was a very fun mini series about like we's people, mostly young people across the US who had taken up the Captain America costume and symbol.
1:14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: for themselves.
1:14:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had created kind of a Captain America network among them.
1:14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: One of them was Aaron Fisher, who you might remember because he was here.
1:14:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he was later in Avengers Academy.
1:15:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So the plot of this is that someone is trying to kill these various Captain America's.
1:15:09
[SPEAKER_00]: and so Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson.
1:15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They find out that it is sin of the red skull's daughter is doing this and also a guy named Speed Demon who I think was being mine control to do it.
1:15:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we find out that their boss is actually warrior women.
1:15:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But she doesn't go by warrior women now because she thinks that sound is juvenile.
1:15:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And she also has a different costume in this.
1:15:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like way less sexy, where it's just kind of like covers more skin and it looks more like an army uniform.
1:15:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But she is like, we want all the Americans to be afraid of the iconography of Captain America.
1:15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We want them to hate it.
1:15:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to turn this country against itself.
1:15:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think she has a plan to release hate monger into the world too,
1:16:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully on the captain's America come together and they beat her out and they beat sin up and they foil the plan so it's all good and it was a fun it's a fun series and let's shoot he calls herself Commander Krieger in this issue yeah not not worry which is not the right yeah that's not the right name right uh no she should be commander Ratsul
1:16:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And she also has her like hypnosis powers in this again that like plays a big part into it She like uses her powers to like make Captain America like Steve Rogers like freak out over like
1:16:38
[SPEAKER_00]: the Captain America symbols.
1:16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: All the good guys saved a day.
1:16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And each issue has like a backup about like the new hero, which is very fun.
1:16:47
[SPEAKER_02]: This is an interesting journey.
1:16:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to take a little bit of time for analysis here.
1:16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I know this has been a longer episode in kind of an intense month of content.
1:16:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I know everyone, you may be sick of all the Nazi stories, but listen to how many there are.
1:17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: We have modern interpretation from some queer friends here on old world war to shit that keeps getting brought up in our comics, but it's also all around us.
1:17:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It our lives as our rights are being stripped away and it's crazy times.
1:17:16
[SPEAKER_02]: This is an interesting journey when you read some characters, a front-to-back like this.
1:17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Master Man is canonically dead in the cable stuff.
1:17:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Warrior Woman, we've seen die a few times, and then we've got that shitty nephew of Master Man, that's running around at the same time.
1:17:30
[SPEAKER_02]: The Red School never dies.
1:17:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Baron Zimone never dies.
1:17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: The hate mugger never dies.
1:17:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Arnum's soul never dies.
1:17:37
[SPEAKER_02]: They just keep, they're just, it's in our face constantly all the time.
1:17:41
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's not them, it's their shit daughter.
1:17:45
[SPEAKER_02]: How are you guys feeling?
1:17:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling a certain kind of way after this conversation.
1:17:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm smiling, but also it's just like, oh, you know?
1:17:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there are so, like you said, like stories with like about like the Nazis and like role and word two are just so prevalent.
1:18:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do think a lot of stories that use Nazis as villains are like in bad taste.
1:18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think it's important to like examine them and to think about like, okay, what does this say
1:18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: writers like
1:18:16
[SPEAKER_00]: thought about Nazis and how they conceptualized and like what they think is evil about them and like what they think evil is.
1:18:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's good to examine that.
1:18:29
[SPEAKER_00]: When like sin showed up in a United States of Captain America, I kind of was thinking about the parallels of her and warrior women.
1:18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was especially thinking of the version of her
1:18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: like, track-wife type of person who, like, expresses her very, like, fascist views in, like, a more subtle way.
1:18:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And just, like, contrasting that with, like, warrior woman being, like, this exaggerated, like, dark kind of character.
1:19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And just thinking, like, okay, which one of these is, like, what actual, like, Nazis look like nowadays.
1:19:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is not a coincidence that, like,
1:19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I, like, queer person wrote the version of sin, um, I really meant for me a little bit.
1:19:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, who is more of, like, a, um, trad wife, because that is, like, what you're seeing nowadays.
1:19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Not so stuff, like, it is so, like, there is so much of it, but like, we do still have to talk about it.
1:19:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and we do still have to be thinking about these kinds of things.
1:19:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I never want to see Masterman on the page again.
1:19:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Willy Lomer, learning how not rest in peace.
1:19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, not rest in peace.
1:19:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And Max Lomer should only show up on the page when you were punching his fucking face off.
1:19:45
[SPEAKER_02]: This mentioned never be given any kind of narrative ever again.
1:19:48
[SPEAKER_02]: However, I do think Warrior Woman has some interesting story potential.
1:19:54
[SPEAKER_02]: as this kind of modern foil who takes the lead, I would only really be interested if she's trying to do it differently.
1:20:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, there's a reckoning for this character.
1:20:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It's unforgivable what she's done, but there's a certain amount of like, I'm interested in what's going on for the her in a way, even though I don't appreciate it at all what she stands for.
1:20:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you guys agree with that sentence or is it much like Masterman where you like I never fall on to see this fucking character again?
1:20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Think it's I think it's hard to say because her most recent appearance is literally the first time She's ever been put in charge of anything like she's always just kind of a minion and it's not until United States of Captain America or she's finally like shown any kind of like indication of what she wants to do It's like what she actually wants to accomplish on her own because
1:20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: her initial story has her take the initiative to turn herself into a super soldier and our most recent story has her take the initiative to try and create this like plan against the captain america's the captain's america but everything in between that she doesn't she's just there to like follow orders and punch things and like get mad at men around her so we never really get any indication of like what she can do and has pre-appointed
1:21:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Sincin manages to create this image of the Tradwife, this very real image of what this movement can look like.
1:21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But where your woman is a seven-foot tall muscular more like masculine-ass woman that doesn't really blend into those ideals in the same way that's in canon.
1:21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That's I think the difference there is that there's an aspect that what Sin can do as a small skinny woman who she's got a red skull face but she frequently hides it.
1:21:34
[SPEAKER_01]: and how she can blend into this ideal, not see ideal, that warrior woman can't and we just don't have any indication of what you could do.
1:21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there's so there is stories you could do with warrior woman that examine these aspects of her that have just never been touched because she's just existed to be the dominatrix in the background.
1:21:52
[SPEAKER_02]: There are so many characters I never want to find.
1:21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to read Skull.
1:21:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll fuck that guy, but there's some fun ones too.
1:21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Arnam Zoll is a blast.
1:21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: He's terrible person, but he's fun.
1:22:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I think warrior woman is a little bit fun.
1:22:04
[SPEAKER_02]: If we have to see this trope, she's one that I don't know.
1:22:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a little fond of her even though she's a terrible, terrible character.
1:22:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hate everything about her at the same time.
1:22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: similar to Theodate, where it's like, I think there is something interesting there.
1:22:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like my knee-jerk reaction to like this kind of Nazi stuff is just like, I don't want to do this again, but I think with her, like it could be interesting to like the hypocrisy of her being so mistreated.
1:22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: by like these people and then like mistreating people anyway uh they're it like you could do something interesting there but I also like... brain-trained how brain-trained got redeemed
1:22:50
[SPEAKER_00]: This is true.
1:22:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a little different, though, because he's not a Christian.
1:22:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
1:22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always crazy to me that he is a Nazi.
1:22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And just like that's our friend brain drain.
1:23:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the parallel to 2025, we're talking about this all the time.
1:23:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we're struggling.
1:23:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we're fine and joy where we can.
1:23:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there value for the two of you in doing this kind of a weird research into your comics journey?
1:23:13
[SPEAKER_02]: When you realize how prevalent it is and how much room it takes up, it's jarring.
1:23:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I love history, but I find sometimes returning to war or two is just a well that's been drained dry.
1:23:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Like every when people talk about history, they always talk about war or two.
1:23:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like that's all that's all.
1:23:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's synonymous with like the topic of history at this point.
1:23:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's especially, I mean, among Americans, I think that happens in the reflects in the comics a lot too.
1:23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know that it serves as much purpose when we're watching things play out the way that they play out nowadays.
1:23:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I also love, as you know, I love going into the like prehistory marble stuff, the stuff that takes place outside the usual area.
1:23:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But when it's always Captain American, the invaders as much as I love Captain American, the invaders, it's just, it feels like,
1:24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's too easy to just have Nazis be the bad guy without examining why, why these these ideas take hold and why these movements because can become such big threats and like when we're looking at things happening nowadays I this is a little bit backtracking a bit but like as a trans woman, seeing a character like warrior woman presented as this like the first scary movie has the same archetypes like the Nazi
1:24:27
[SPEAKER_01]: with the broad shoulders and things like that, and that movie's been is to this day, something people still watch, and there's just an interesting aspect to where people talk about this kind of history without examining it in a way that really gives them understanding of it, I think.
1:24:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And going into it like this, if you go into it with the intention of understanding, understanding and learning and like seeing why characters like master master man or warrior woman were created and what they what purpose they serve in a narrative, I think can be valuable in that overall understanding of why this is something we keep coming back to both culturally and narratively and such.
1:25:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that comes out to a cohesive point, but that I think that's wonderful and it's complicated, right?
1:25:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm making a lot of room in my life right now to research this shit and to talk about it with friends on the show.
1:25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm being very careful about who I invite for these conversations.
1:25:19
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm thrilled that both of you join me for this.
1:25:21
[SPEAKER_02]: The research is interesting, the conversation's interesting.
1:25:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But at the root of all, fuck, like, ugh.
1:25:26
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, I fully understand.
1:25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, the world where too stuff is also exhausting, but it's been kind of healing for me to research the history because it helps me understand a little bit.
1:25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: about what's at stake and it helps me like see that there's a precedent for this right instead of everything just feeling so fucking heavy all the time I can go oh look at this thing that happened a hundred years ago and now let's look at what's happening now it's interesting.
1:25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the United States and everything that was on my mind pretty much it is a little frustrating I think to read these stories that like don't really meaning a lot of them don't really meaningfully
1:26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: what the Nazis did was wrong.
1:26:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just like, ooh, scary bad guys, and that is annoying.
1:26:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it is good to be looking at this stuff and being like maybe like trying to take away from it, how what is a way that we can talk about, Naziism that is more productive and useful in the time that we're in right now, and connected to the kind of fascism that we're dealing with right now.
1:26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think there is a value in looking at the stuff, even if a kind of
1:26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, I can't like physically threaten Roy Thomas on this show, but like, I kind of feel frustrated by that man.
1:26:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I know this was a serious month.
1:26:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope it's been informative and healing for everyone.
1:26:42
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to keep the red school conversations going on this show as well.
1:26:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Next month on Grimalk and Lane, we're going to go so silly to counterbalance at all.
1:26:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be the trial of the watcher at the end of the month, and because of that, we are doing an eyeball horror theme on the show, so all of the Patreon characters are eyeball themed, and so it's going to be a fun silly jump all over the place month on the show, we'll get silly on the main show as well.
1:27:07
[SPEAKER_02]: 2025 has been a wild journey.
1:27:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, everybody, for your ongoing support.
1:27:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you to the Ode and Priya, specifically for your friendship.
1:27:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate you both.
1:27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll follow the show at Grimoque and under score lane on Instagram.
1:27:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we have any final thoughts from either of you?
1:27:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And where could people find you anything you want to plug before November 2025?
1:27:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go Priya and then The Ode.
1:27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing much to add.
1:27:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for inviting me for the episode.
1:27:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It was fun.
1:27:31
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find me.
1:27:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm fun.
1:27:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Question me.
1:27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, fun is not quite right.
1:27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: but it was a good time.
1:27:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on BlueSky at Letters of Priya and that's about it.
1:27:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a great time for what it is.
1:27:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know what any of my social bnds are anymore, because I don't really use any of them.
1:27:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I think as the O-Day chase on a lot of things, yeah, no, it was a great time.
1:27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You really should have me and Priya back some time to talk about headhunter, because...
1:28:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:28:02
[SPEAKER_02]: ping me ping me we have to find the right spot but i will not be really fun alright everybody thank you for listening take care of yourselves we will see you all back here next week on the Great Moken Lane Patreon channel