Latest / Mini Scroll / Link Rot, Digital Decay & The Internet Archive: Turns Out Digital Content Actually *Doesn't* Last Forever
Transcript
- 0:00This episode of Infinite Scroll is brought to you by Britta from
- 0:03Water Talk to the Emotional Support Water Bottle.
- 0:06Gen. Z and Millennials have developed
- 0:09an obsession with water and staying hydrated, so if you're
- 0:12ready to take your hydration game to the next level, Britta
- 0:15is the way to go. With Britta's Water Filter jugs,
- 0:17you can enjoy pure and fresh tasting filtered water straight
- 0:21from any tab. By ditching single use plastic
- 0:24bottles, you'll be doing your bit for the planet and drinking
- 0:27water that tastes amazing. Britta doesn't just filter
- 0:30water, it filters out the guilt of plastic waste.
- 0:33Thank you to Britta for supporting the pod, helping us
- 0:36keep our deep dives going, and of course, keeping us hydrated.
- 0:40In October last year, the Internet Archive, a project born
- 0:44in the late 1990s seeking to preserve the digital world,
- 0:47found itself under attack by hackers.
- 0:50The breach exposed data from 31 million users, shaking the
- 0:54website that held decades worth of preserved online content.
- 0:59The hackers left an ominous message on the homepage
- 1:02highlighting the archives small budget and the fragile state of
- 1:05its mission. Quote Have you ever felt like
- 1:08the Internet Archive runs on sticks and is constantly on the
- 1:11verge of suffering a catastrophic security breach?
- 1:15It just happened. Forced offline to prevent
- 1:17further damage, the Internet Archive team shut down the
- 1:20Wayback Machine, one of the most powerful tools when it comes to
- 1:24Internet history. The digital world waited as
- 1:27comparisons to the burning of the Library of Alexandria
- 1:30circulated a valid metaphor for what could have been a
- 1:33catastrophic loss of digital history.
- 1:36After going offline on October 8th, the Internet Archive
- 1:39resumed the Wayback Machine days later on October 13th, and
- 1:43eventually started allowing a read only view of the archived
- 1:46media. The event sparked widespread
- 1:48conversation about the fleeting nature of online content,
- 1:52despite the common belief that the Internet is forever and the
- 1:55indispensable role of digital archive tools.
- 1:58Operating on a modest 20 to $30 million annual budget, the
- 2:03Internet Archive punches well above its weight, preserving
- 2:06digital artifacts that serve as crucial resources for everything
- 2:10from court cases involving erased evidence to historical
- 2:14research. In an overwhelming digital
- 2:16landscape where content can disappear in an instant, the
- 2:20Archives mission to safeguard content is becoming more
- 2:23important every single day. From Centennial World, I'm
- 2:28Lauren Meisner and this this is infinite Scroll, a podcast about
- 2:32Internet culture, the creator economy and how social media is
- 2:35shaping Gen. Z Welcome back to Infinite
- 2:38scroll, everyone. I'm so excited because this is
- 2:40our first infinite scroll episode brought to you by our
- 2:44first ever year long partnership, which is Britta.
- 2:47So you guys will see Britta popping up here and there on the
- 2:50podcast all year. You'll also see them on our
- 2:53TikTok. You'll see them on my personal
- 2:55TikTok in the newsletter. They are the first brand to
- 2:58support us in this kind of long term way and I'm so excited.
- 3:02So please definitely give some love to Britta for helping us
- 3:05keep the pod going. OK, As always, Please remember
- 3:08to rate, review and subscribe. We're trying to get to 1000
- 3:11Spotify ratings. We got to 500 at the end of last
- 3:14year and that was really exciting for me.
- 3:16So please hit that star rating. That's all you have to do on
- 3:19Spotify. Or if you listen on Apple, you
- 3:21can also leave us an Apple review as well or a YouTube
- 3:24comment. Subscribe to YouTube, subscribe
- 3:26to the pod, all that good stuff. Please also sign up to our
- 3:29newsletter called Infinite Scroll.
- 3:31On Fridays, we round up the five biggest thing pieces on the
- 3:34Internet from that week and also follow me on Instagram at Lauren
- 3:37Meisner under Score. We've all grown up with the
- 3:45warning, be careful what you post online because your digital
- 3:49footprint lasts forever. But as we have discovered in
- 3:52recent years, not everything on the Internet is permanent.
- 3:55And while it may be a relief to know that those cringy posts
- 3:58from our past can vanish, the flip side is that important
- 4:02content can disappear too. With that being said, there have
- 4:05been substantial efforts to safeguard digital materials with
- 4:08the advent of the Internet Archive.
- 4:10If you spend a lot of time online researching, chances are
- 4:13you come across the Internet Archive.
- 4:15It's exactly what it sounds like, a tool that lets you view
- 4:18links and digital materials that have been deleted or altered,
- 4:22making them challenging to find otherwise.
- 4:24Since computer engineer Brewster Kale founded the nonprofit
- 4:27organization in 1996, the Internet Archive has been on a
- 4:31mission to provide quote, universal access to all
- 4:35knowledge, preserving the internet's history for future
- 4:38generations. To do this, the Internet Archive
- 4:41offers a range of programs and features.
- 4:43The most famous is probably the Wayback Machine, a tool that
- 4:46lets users enter a URL to explore and scroll through past
- 4:50versions of websites, whether they are still live or offline.
- 4:54Its interface is similar to that of platforms like Snap Tick,
- 4:57which lets users download TikTok videos after dropping in a link,
- 5:00or YouTube to MP3 converters that many of us relied on to
- 5:04turn videos into songs for streaming back in the day.
- 5:07The archiving process is partly crowd sourced, allowing anyone
- 5:10with an account to contribute by uploading files, or we're using
- 5:14the Wayback Machine browser extension to save pages as they
- 5:17use the Internet. Additionally, the Internet
- 5:19Archive offers Archive IT, a suite of services designed for
- 5:23institutions looking to collect, manage, preserve, and provide
- 5:26public access to web archival collections.
- 5:29As the Archive IT website puts it, Quote Archive IT is a
- 5:32service that allows institutions to preserve materials they have
- 5:36archived from the web. The service runs on Internet
- 5:38archives, nonprofit, self owned and operated data centers, and
- 5:42includes forever Storage of archived materials.
- 5:45Otherwise, the Internet Archive has historically relied on
- 5:48automated web crawlers, which are bots that browse the
- 5:51Internet to identify and store web pages and databases.
- 5:54These crawlers archive various web pages using different tools,
- 5:58including Heretics, developed by the Internet Archive and Alexa
- 6:01Internet, founded in April 1996. That being said, the Internet
- 6:06Archive conducted its first crawl in 1996.
- 6:09Now, crawls operate differently depending on the bot.
- 6:13According to the Payback Machines Frequently Asked
- 6:15Questions page, websites are often linked from other pages,
- 6:18so links from established sites are typically archived.
- 6:22Meanwhile, other crawls, like those conducted by Alexa
- 6:25Internet, follow their own unique processes.
- 6:28Through these efforts, the Internet Archive has made over
- 6:3128 years of web history accessible to the public.
- 6:35This includes a staggering collection 835 billion web
- 6:40pages, 44 million books and texts, 15,000,000 audio
- 6:45recordings including 255,000 live concerts, 10.6 million
- 6:51videos, including 2.6 million television news programs, 4.8
- 6:55million images, and 1,000,000 software programs.
- 6:59It's worth noting that the Internet Archive isn't the only
- 7:02archiving service. For example, the US Library of
- 7:05Congress preserves government websites and has archived every
- 7:09tweet sent from Twitter's founding until 2017.
- 7:12Similarly, the UK Web Archive focuses on websiteswith.uk
- 7:16domain names, but for this episode we have decided to focus
- 7:20on the Internet Archive given its massive efforts to save
- 7:23content online. Despite the Internet Archives
- 7:26comprehensive approach, not every website has been saved, an
- 7:29impossible task given just how huge the Internet is.
- 7:33But several factors have contributed to this.
- 7:35For example, automated crawlers may miss some sites during their
- 7:39crawls, especially if those sites are obscure or new.
- 7:42Additionally, some websites may be password protected or
- 7:45otherwise inaccessible to automated systems.
- 7:48In other cases, site owners may request that their content be
- 7:51excluded from the archive. According to data from the Pew
- 7:55Research Center quote, as of October 20, 2338, percent of web
- 7:59pages that existed in 2013 are no longer accessible.
- 8:03A decade later, where over 1/3 of these websites are out of
- 8:06action, there are even more websites with broken links,
- 8:09making it increasingly difficult for Internet users to gather
- 8:12specific information on certain topics.
- 8:15Quote 23% of news web pages contain at least one broken
- 8:19link, as do 21% of web pages from government sites.
- 8:23News sites with a high level of site traffic and those with less
- 8:27are about equally likely to contain broken links, the report
- 8:30continues. 54% of Wikipedia pages contain at least one link
- 8:35in their references section that points to a page that no longer
- 8:38exists. With this phenomenon
- 8:40characterized by experts as digital decay, it has become
- 8:44clear that not everything online lasts forever.
- 8:47This further proves the point of just how important it is to
- 8:50archive websites and digital material, particularly when it
- 8:53comes to preserving culturally and politically significant
- 8:56information. I'll get more into that
- 8:58importance later, but before that, a brief caveat is
- 9:01necessary. It's worth highlighting some of
- 9:03the challenges and threats the Internet Archive continues to
- 9:06face. A challenge that I touched on
- 9:08earlier is that many websites are deleted before crawlers can
- 9:12reach them or users can archive them.
- 9:14There's no simple solution to this, unless perhaps the
- 9:17Internet Archive partners with more hosting services or search
- 9:20engines to consistently archive sites and make them publicly
- 9:23accessible, or if these services took on the task of archiving
- 9:27themselves. Even with such partnerships,
- 9:29certain obstacles still prevent some websites from being
- 9:32archived. Aside from issues around scope,
- 9:35journalist Chris Stokel Walker, in a piece for the BBC,
- 9:38characterizes the problems as far reaching, noting that they
- 9:41range from, quote, financial threats, technical challenges,
- 9:45cyber attacks, and legal battles from businesses who dislike the
- 9:49idea of freely available copies of their intellectual property.
- 9:53For instance, much of the financial burden on the Internet
- 9:56Archive stems from its status as a nonprofit organization, funded
- 10:00primarily by donations from foundations such as the National
- 10:04Endowment for the Humanities, the National Science Foundation,
- 10:07and the Democracy Fund. As our reliance on Internet
- 10:10archives grow and the projects expand, so do the raising
- 10:14questions about the long term stability of the archive.
- 10:18These financial challenges, of course, make legal battles more
- 10:21difficult for the Internet Archive.
- 10:23In recent years, the organization has faced legal
- 10:26issues around intellectual property and copyright.
- 10:29Stokel Walker detailed these challenges in his article,
- 10:31highlighting that the Internet Archive was sued by four major
- 10:35book publishers who argued that scanning physical books for
- 10:38digital access violated copyright law in the United
- 10:41States. A court subsequently ruled that
- 10:44this practice was illegal, where the Internet Archives appeal
- 10:47against that decision was later rejected.
- 10:49Following its legal troubles, the Internet Archive faced a
- 10:52slew of cyber safety issues, most notably a hack in October
- 10:56last year, as I mentioned in the intro.
- 10:58Aside from this, in May 2024, the Internet Archive also
- 11:02experienced a distributed denial of service attack, a common type
- 11:06of cyber attack where a site is overwhelmed with fake traffic.
- 11:09The website experienced outages as a result, marking the first
- 11:13time it have been targeted in its history, according to the
- 11:16organization's founder, Brewster Kale.
- 11:18That being said, we are still clearly learning how to best
- 11:22archive digital content, but significant progress has been
- 11:25made. For example, Wikipedia has begun
- 11:28citing archived links to make it easier for users to access the
- 11:31information they are looking for.
- 11:33In 2018, it was reported that the Internet Archive restored
- 11:37over 9 million links across Wikipedia by leveraging the
- 11:40Wayback Machine, ensuring that information remains accessible
- 11:44even when original sources disappear or links change.
- 11:47Internet Archive also made various books accessible
- 11:51LinkedIn Wikipedia entries. Many of these articles rely on
- 11:54information from books that make it difficult for readers online
- 11:57to track down a copy, especially if they do not belong to any
- 12:00sort of institution that would grant them access.
- 12:03As reported by Clint Finley for Wired in 2019.
- 12:06Quote Thanks to an initiative by the Internet Archive, you can
- 12:09click the name of the book and see a two page preview of the
- 12:12cited work, as as long as the citation specifies a page
- 12:15number. More recently, in September last
- 12:18year, the Internet Archive struck a partnership with
- 12:20Google, which will allow for archived websites and pages to
- 12:23show up in search results. Given that not every Internet
- 12:27user is familiar with the Internet Archive or the Wayback
- 12:30Machine, this will likely help the nonprofit with its mission
- 12:33to ensure equal access to all Internet users.
- 12:36Quote To access this new feature, conduct a search on
- 12:39Google as usual. Next to each search result,
- 12:42you'll find 3 dots. Clicking on these will bring up
- 12:44the About This Result panel. Within this panel, select More
- 12:48About This page to reveal a link to the Wayback Machine page for
- 12:52that website. Another blog post from the
- 12:54Internet Archive explains. Now, considering all the
- 12:58challenges the Internet Archive continues to face, a question
- 13:01arises, is saving all this media really worth it?
- 13:05And the answer is a resounding yes.
- 13:08The Internet has become the foremost communication tool of
- 13:11our time, capturing the essence of human interaction, thought
- 13:15processes, and discussion. Tools like the Internet Archive
- 13:18play a crucial role in preserving this digital
- 13:20dialogue, particularly when it comes to archiving content from
- 13:24public pages and social media accounts.
- 13:26Given the fast-paced trend cycle and the ever changing cultural
- 13:29zeitgeist, the future of many social media platforms remains
- 13:33precarious. TikTok being a prime example
- 13:36with the ban in the United States With TikTok being a major
- 13:39culture driver and even a political hub for years, losing
- 13:43access to hundreds of thousands of videos would be an extreme
- 13:46loss for digital archivists in years to come.
- 13:49And we have seen instances where content from social media
- 13:52platforms has vanished entirely from the Internet.
- 13:55A prime example is Myspace, which lost all content uploaded
- 13:59before 2016, covering its peak years through the 2000s and
- 14:03early 20 tens. If you're interested in a full
- 14:06discussion of Myspace's rise and fall, we did a deep dive on this
- 14:10last year, so feel free to check it out.
- 14:12But regarding the loss of user data, Myspace cited a faulty
- 14:15server migration around 2018, leading to the disappearance of
- 14:19over 50 million tracks from 14,000,000 musicians, along with
- 14:23millions of user profiles and photos.
- 14:25Quote Even though many users had deserted Myspace by the end of
- 14:29the naughties, for newer social networks such as Facebook, the
- 14:31site retained a significant user base well into this decade as
- 14:35musicians had cultivated their fan followings on it.
- 14:38Alex Hearn reported for The Guardian in 2019.
- 14:41The company has confirmed to Online Archivis that music has
- 14:45been lost permanently, dashing hopes that a backup could be
- 14:48used to permanently protect the collection for future
- 14:51generations. While Myspace is probably the
- 14:54most prolific example of mass amounts of social media data
- 14:57disappearing, a similar thing happened with Vine.
- 15:00Although with Vine, it wasn't an accident, it happened because
- 15:03the app closed after Vine was officially discontinued in
- 15:07January 2017. It was only a matter of time
- 15:10before all the six second videos would be difficult to access.
- 15:14Upon the platform's closure, Twitter, which had acquired the
- 15:17platform in 2012, revamped the Vine website, allowing it to act
- 15:21as an archive for content quote. On the new site, which is
- 15:25described as a time capsule for all things Vine, you can search
- 15:28for a specific user's profile or browse the archives by category
- 15:32or year. Twitter has curated a number of
- 15:35highlights in some of its most popular categories, like
- 15:38animals, art, comedy, music, and weird.
- 15:40Carissa Bell reported for Mashable upon Vine's.
- 15:44There are also a number of editors, pics, and playlists
- 15:47where you can relive some of the site's most memorable memes and
- 15:50popular videos. While many Vine users
- 15:52appreciated the sentiment, the archive is no longer available
- 15:56via the Vine website, showing just how important external
- 15:59sources like the Internet Archive are when documenting
- 16:03Internet history. As digital culture becomes
- 16:06increasingly disjointed, archiving its content is
- 16:09becoming crucial. On this podcast, we've often
- 16:12discussed the death of monoculture.
- 16:14For those unfamiliar with the term, Kyle Chacchia writes for
- 16:17Vox that quote. Today, the word monoculture is
- 16:20used to describe a monolithic culture, the range of artifacts,
- 16:23characters, voices, and stories that a specific demographic,
- 16:27Americans for example, find recognizable and relatable.
- 16:30Pop culture was once a monoculture dictated by top 50
- 16:34charts, award shows, TV guides, and magazines.
- 16:37Everyone experienced a similar cultural zeitgeist.
- 16:40The early days of the Internet mirrored this with shared viral
- 16:43moments like Friday by Rebecca Plaque.
- 16:46While there are still universal reference points today, such as
- 16:49Wicked, it's increasingly difficult to find someone who
- 16:52shares the exact same Internet experience.
- 16:55This shift is due to the Internet becoming highly
- 16:57personalized, with algorithms curating content based on
- 17:01individual interests. And as monoculture fades, the
- 17:04importance of archiving the Internet grows.
- 17:07Even in the present, understanding the broader
- 17:09digital landscape is challenging, especially when
- 17:12drama or events are happening outside our usual bubble of
- 17:15content. Preserving these moments is
- 17:17essential for future digital culture enthusiasts and
- 17:20historians to grasp the full context of trends and viral
- 17:24phenomena. Just imagine trying to explain
- 17:27why a Bach look alike contest was happening in New York City
- 17:30without the context. But the importance of saving
- 17:33content online is not exclusive to preserving information for
- 17:37historians or digital archivists for the future.
- 17:40It is also a major part of fact checking and ensuring trans and
- 17:44media. Over the past few years,
- 17:46misinformation and disinformation have become
- 17:49increasingly pervasive online. Journalists and social media
- 17:52commentators have extensively covered this issue, with many
- 17:55suggesting that Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter was the
- 17:58final nail in the coffin of misinformation.
- 18:00By enabling anyone to purchase verification and allowing bots
- 18:04to flood timelines, these changes have amplified the
- 18:07spread of false information. While community notes offer a
- 18:10small buffer by flagging inaccuracies, their impact is
- 18:14limited. They address surface level
- 18:16issues but fall short in addressing the core problem, the
- 18:19need for effective moderation, and the removal of
- 18:22misinformation and disinformation from a platform.
- 18:25Now, other big tech entities are following suit, with Meta being
- 18:29a case in point. Earlier this month, Mark
- 18:32Zuckerberg announced significant changes to Meta's moderation
- 18:35policies, explaining the reasoning behind these
- 18:37adjustments. Zuckerberg expressed frustration
- 18:40with the current state of moderation across the platform,
- 18:43suggesting saying that it has been taken too far.
- 18:45The problem with complex systems is they make mistakes.
- 18:49Even if they accidentally censor just 1% of posts, that's
- 18:52millions of people and we've reached a point where it's just
- 18:55too many mistakes and too much censorship.
- 18:58In an attempt to protect free expression and limit censorship,
- 19:03Zuckerberg announced several moderation changes, with some of
- 19:07the most controversial being Meta's plan to replace fact
- 19:10checkers with community notes in the US, following a model
- 19:14similar to X. Meanwhile, another significant
- 19:17change was Meta's decision to relocate its trust and safety
- 19:21and content moderation teams from California to Texas, citing
- 19:24concerns that biased employees may be excessively censoring
- 19:28content. With moderation seemingly
- 19:31falling by the wayside, allowing for misinformation to surge,
- 19:35archiving digital content becomes increasingly important.
- 19:38By preserving past websites and content, users can verify what
- 19:42was said and when. For instance, academics and
- 19:45archivists Kayla Harris, Christina Bass, and Stephanie
- 19:48Schreffler, in a piece for The Conversation, highlight an
- 19:51instance where the Internet Archives Wayback Machine was
- 19:54used to Fact Check information. They cite a case during
- 19:58President Donald Trump's first term when he claimed that Google
- 20:01had promoted former President Barack Obama's State of the
- 20:05Union address, a speech that the US president gives to a joint
- 20:08session of Congress every year over his own.
- 20:11The Wayback Machine was instrumental in verifying the
- 20:14accuracy of such claims. Quote Archived versions of the
- 20:17Google homepage proved that Google had in fact highlighted
- 20:21Trump's State of the Union address in the same manner.
- 20:24The author's. Explain Multiple news outlets
- 20:26use the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine as the source
- 20:29for fact checking these types of claims, since screenshots alone
- 20:32can be easily altered. While publications may use
- 20:35archive digital materials to Fact Check claims, these same
- 20:38tools also serve as a check on media.
- 20:41A diverse and honest media landscape is increasingly
- 20:44important, especially as social media platforms, where many of
- 20:47us continue to get our news, move away from fact checking and
- 20:51moderation. However, consumer trust in media
- 20:54outlets is at an all time low. According to the Gallup, in
- 20:572020, 469% of Americans report having quote none at all or not
- 21:03very much. Trust and confidence in mass
- 21:06media to report the news accurately and fairly, compared
- 21:09to only 31% who held a great deal of trust.
- 21:13In Australia, it's a similar story.
- 21:16Distrust in the news has reached its highest point since 2016,
- 21:19with the University of Canberra's 2024 Digital News
- 21:23Report noting that 30, 33% of the population express distrust
- 21:27in media. Whether this distrust is
- 21:29justified or not is another conversation, but services like
- 21:33the Internet Archive offer the public a valuable tool to
- 21:36scrutinize information, fostering a greater transparency
- 21:40and potentially rebuilding trust in the media.
- 21:43By providing access to past content, these archives allow
- 21:46users to verify claims, track changes, and hold media outlets
- 21:50accountable, contributing to a more informed audience.
- 21:53In their piece for The Conversation, Harris, Bass, and
- 21:56Schreffler highlighted another example, focusing on how
- 22:00archival tools have ensured transparency from Gawker.
- 22:03Founded in 2002 by Nick Denton, Gawker quickly became one of the
- 22:07most popular gossip blogs on the Internet.
- 22:10Despite its success, Gawker Media was often embroiled in
- 22:13controversy, ultimately leading to its closure and eventual
- 22:17bankruptcy. Quote When a news story
- 22:19disappeared from the Gawker website a year after the
- 22:21publication shut down, the Freedom of the Press Foundation
- 22:24became concerned with what might happen when wealthy individuals
- 22:28purchase websites with the intent to delete or censor the
- 22:32archives, the authors continue. It partnered with the Internet
- 22:35Archive to launch a web archive collection focused on preserving
- 22:39web archives of vulnerable news outlets and to dissuade
- 22:42billionaires from purchasing such material to censor.
- 22:45With that being said, these tools aren't just a check on
- 22:48media, but also on those who run it, helping to limit any harmful
- 22:52agendas that may be at play. By preserving content and
- 22:55providing access to past publications, digital archiving
- 22:59services ensure that media outlets and their operators are
- 23:02held accountable and transparent.
- 23:04All that to say, it's clear that archiving digital content is
- 23:07important, but we cannot overlook the challenges posed by
- 23:11our current landscape and what these mean for the archiving
- 23:14process. Of course, this comes back to
- 23:17misinformation, as it so often does.
- 23:20Operating in a digital landscape where misinformation runs
- 23:23rampant raises a key question. How do we preserve information
- 23:27when distinguishing between real and fake becomes increasingly
- 23:31difficult? And is it even worth it?
- 23:33While we may struggle to differentiate between what is
- 23:36real and the fake in the moment, hindsight often brings clarity.
- 23:40As time passes, we gain greater insights into the forces at play
- 23:44during specific incidents or cultural moments.
- 23:46Online archiving digital content therefore serves a dual purpose.
- 23:51It not only preserves the historical digital record but
- 23:54also provides a means to trace how information spreads and
- 23:58evolves over time. This can educate Internet users
- 24:01around misinformation and promote digital literacy.
- 24:05Ultimately, it's important to approach archived sources with a
- 24:08critical eye. While they are valuable tools
- 24:11for preserving digital history, in today's digital landscape, no
- 24:15one can really afford to accept information at face value.
- 24:18The message here is clear. Archives can help maintain the
- 24:22integrity of information dissemination in a world where
- 24:26the truth can often be elusive. But despite their importance,
- 24:30archived content, like all online information, requires
- 24:33critical thinking to be used effectively.
- 24:36Infamous Scroll is a podcast produced, presented and Co
- 24:40written by me, Lauren Meissner for Centennial World.
- 24:43This episode was researched and Co written by Annabelle Ben
- 24:46David. Editing is by Danny Fennick.
- 24:48Thank you so much for listening. I love you guys and I will talk
- 24:51to you next week. Bye.