Latest / Beyond the Ballot Box / What’s Politics #6 - Better Your Life: Political Action vs Hustle Culture

Transcript

What’s Politics #6 - Better Your Life: Political Action vs Hustle Culture · Beyond the Ballot Box

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The Business station.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Beyond the Ballot Box with me, Din Johan.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: You're listening to what's politics where we delve into political concepts,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: ideas and questions and explore how they impact all of us.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Something I tend to hear a lot in conversations is
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: there's no point getting involved in politics. We have no
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: real power to change anything or that. It's just such
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a waste of time.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: So on today's show, we will be discussing why you
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: perhaps still should get involved in politics and how after
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: all politics affects all of us, whether we like it
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: or not, whether we realize it or not. As always,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: my guest on today's show is Assistant Professor Peter Beatty,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: political economist and political psychologist at the Chinese University of
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Hong Kong. Welcome back to the show, Peter. How are you?
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I'm good. Thank you. So let's start by just discussing power.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Do you think people tend to underestimate how much power
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: they have? How much power do people actually have in
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: a society? And I'm talking about the masses of people,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: well, the, the masses of people have a, a massive
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: amount of, of kind of uh uh not hidden power,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: latent power is the word I was looking for. Uh
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: But it all depends on, on whether they're organized or not. So,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: as an individual, you have, you know, individually, very little
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: power but organized with uh masses of people in a country,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: then that's a considerable amount of latent power.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: So I think I like that you brought up organized
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: because I can't remember, was it Franz Fanon or Malcolm
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: X who said we are not outnumbered, just out organized?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Do you think people not realize how much effort and
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: money is being put in by the ruling class to
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: manufacture consent and all of it, why do you think
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: people have this assumption or, or the train of thought that,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a waste of time. I have no
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: power so on and so forth.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: But on, on the one hand, it's, it's logical and
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: reasonable to believe that you as an individual have no power.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: It's true, an individual person can't really make much of
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: a change on a, on a political level if you're
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: talking about the, the scale of an entire country or,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: or group of countries. But of course, as a, as
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: an organized group of many, many individuals acting as one,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: there's an immense amount of, of power potential there.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Uh So yeah, I, I like that quote a lot.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: That's a, it's an excellent quote. Um And it goes
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: back to that quote, I probably mentioned too many times
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: already from David Hume that, you know, the few are
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: able to rule the many through opinion, uh, force is
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: always on the side of the many. Nonetheless,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: it strikes one as somewhat odd to see how easy
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: it is for a very small group of people to
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: rule the many, uh, and they do so through opinion.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And that gives you a hint at, uh, one of the, the,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: the kind of requirements for mass organization.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Uh you need to, to bring people to view things
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: a similar way to have similar ideas, similar goals. Uh the,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: the the Chinese word for comrade uh literally means same goal.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: So it's like a person who has the same goal.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: So getting people organized to view a political question the
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: same way, who seem to see the solution in the
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: same way. Uh That's the the the the core of
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: uh any effective organization.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: So why does political apathy happen as a political psychologist?
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen this in the US in Europe,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: but it's all over the world. You know, you see
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: many young people, of course, there are many people who are,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: who are very politicized, very engaged and all of that.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: But you tend to hear this, you know, I'm very disillusioned,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in politics anymore. Why does this political
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: apathy tend to happen and how do we overcome it?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that apathy can happen a bunch of
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: different ways. I think probably the most common form of
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: it arises from lack of knowledge about politics, like lack
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: of sufficient knowledge. If you're someone who for most of
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: your life hasn't really been that interested, you see the
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: way
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: the politics is presented in, in mass media and you
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: just think this is irrelevant. I don't see how I
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: can change anything. There's, there's no deep understanding or, or,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: or common cause, common goal that you share with many
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: people because that hasn't been articulated to you.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Uh Then I think you can develop apathy simply because
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: uh you, you view the realm of politics as impossibly complex.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Uh It would take so much time to understand there's
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: so many different conflicting opinions, et cetera. Uh So that's
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I think one form of apathy and then another form
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: of apathy is, is among the smaller group,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: but people who have spent a lot of time learning
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: politics about politics and they, they may have attempted to
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: affect some sort of political change and met with failure.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: And then that, that feeling of disappointment uh leads them
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: to develop a, a sort of apathetic perspective
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: on politics. So how do you overcome that?
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Uh I think the, the only real solution for that
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: is uh trying harder. So the, the, the first of all, for,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: for the larger group, the people that haven't learned much
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: about politics and that's why they feel apathetic because it
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: just seems like an impossibly complex uh impossible to, to
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: change kind of
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: uh sphere. Well, for them, it's just a matter of,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: of education and organization. So if they are taught more
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: about politics that they learn more about how uh they
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: could in an organization, use the political levers that they
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: have available to significantly change their lives.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Then I think that's how to get rid of, of
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: the kind of mass form of apathy and then for
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: the the minority form of apathy of, of attempting to
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: affect some change in politics and failing. Um You know,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I just remind people of, of uh Antonio Gramsci line
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: that we should have or, or we can have pessimism
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: of the intellect. We can, we can think about
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: political uh problems and, and think intellectually that we have
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: very little chance of, of solving them, but you have
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: to have optimism of the will you have to act
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: as if uh you are optimistic and if he could
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: write that in a, a fascist prison
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: uh where he was kept to try to uh I
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: think as Mussolini or, or one of his lieutenants said
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: we need to destroy this brain uh because it's dangerous.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: If he could have that, that attitude, then I think
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: most of us can afford to have that attitude too.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about what neoliberalism
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: um or how neo liberalism had or has potentially contributed
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: to this attitude of apathy or perhaps even sort of
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: individualism and things like that. Right. I I'm what
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: in your view, how is neo liberalism, especially when we
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: look at when it really started to do, you know,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: really take off the thatcher era, the Reagan era and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: you know, subsequently many countries in around the world followed
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: suit including Malaysia. I'm wondering how has neo liberalism influenced
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: the perception of power and agency among common people?
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. Um I think the most
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: uh immediate effect is how economic policies have changed the
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: kind of economic reality that people live in or suffer under,
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: maybe might be more accurate. And I think that is a,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: is a primary cause of the kind of man
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: mass form of apathy because the the mass form of,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: of apathy is linked to a lack of political knowledge,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: a lack of knowledge about uh the nature of the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: problems people face the solutions that are available and how
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: to attain those solutions through organization.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And if you're living in a neo liberal economy where
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: most of the population is suffering under a very precarious
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: position where they're not certain about keeping their job, they're
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: working far too many hours. Uh They lack the, the
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: absolutely essential
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: leisure time to, to read and learn about politics and
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: organize and act as political animals. Well, that's probably the
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: the most significant contributor to the, the kind of apathy
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: you're talking about that neo liberal economic policies cause
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: and then you know, you might uh trace some of
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: those ideas, you mentioned individualism that, that certainly is a
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: core part of neo liberal ideology to the extent that
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: that has trickled throughout society and affected uh people, even the, the,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: the people who have educated themselves about politics. Uh And
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: if they're not thinking in terms of, you know, I
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: as an individual really can't do much of anything but
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I, along with many other people organized as one can, if,
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: if that individual uh individualist ethos has has disseminated even
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: to them and, and they kind of unthinkingly unquestioningly accept it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Then I think neoliberalism can also contribute to that other
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: form of apathy as well.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Do you also think that speaking of this individualism, right,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: that
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: neo liberalism, the era of neo liberalism has really transformed
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: people to think about personal survival and individual first and
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: collective second. And what I mean by that is this
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: is anecdotal. So I really like to get your thoughts
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: on it. It seems like these days whenever, you know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: people are suffering from low wages, unaffordable housing so on
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: and so forth.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: The sort of solution is hustle culture and books related
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: to hustle culture, you know, books written by Jordan Peterson
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and the likes Ted talks by Elon Musk and, and
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: you know, tells you to pick yourself up by the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: bootstraps and then you can become one of them, you know,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: the Dan Bulgarians of the world and so on. And
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: so forth. And
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: that seems to be the solution work on yourself, fix yourself,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: not that working on yourself is not important, right? But
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: that seems to be the solution for problems that's happening
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: all over the world, right? Or problems, even low wage problems,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: unaffordable housing, so on and so forth. How do you
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: see that?
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: But that's actually kind of core to the neo liberal ethos.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Uh the the, the idea that you as an individual
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: need to increase your human capital by investing in yourself.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: This is all with quotation marks. Um And that is the,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: the the solution for everybody. You just need to work
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: harder and then you will, will put yourself in a
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: more privileged position and then life will be great.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Um But you know, the, the you can go to
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: a more on a more fundamental level and just look
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: at the human hierarchy of needs. Obviously, the most pressing
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: need we have is to stay alive, to have food,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: to have shelter, to have clothing. So when people are
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: not secure in their sense of of having food, clothes, shelter,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: then of course, the most pressing issue on their minds
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: is going to be getting that security
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: and ideas about, you know, uh the the broader collective
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: uh political ideas are just not going to be seem
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: very important for most people because their, their brains are
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: uh preoccupied with, with basic survival. You know, there's, there's
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: research on what poverty does to the brain
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and it basically, it just puts a, a massive tax
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: on our, our cognition. We, you know, if, if you're
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: suffering under poverty, instead of having the, the time to
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: think about all sorts of other things from your relationships
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: to politics, you're instead constantly calculating. Can I afford this?
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: How much do I at the end of the month
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: to pay that?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: So you, people who are, who suffer under poverty, their
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: brains are much more active every single day, every hour
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: of the day making these kinds of calculations that people
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: who have security at the most basic level, their brains
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: aren't uh under that kind of attacks. So I think
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: that's pretty fundamental as well.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: So with all of that in mind, what is the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: importance of political or civic engagement in society despite the
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: problems that we have talked about over the past 10
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: minutes or so? Why is it still important or is
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: it even important for people to be politically engaged in
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: a society?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Well, because your individual effort to improve your life and,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: and get that kind of uh uh basic security. Uh
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: You people have to recognize that it's a, it's a
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: matter of systems, it's not just a matter of individual effort.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Sometimes individual effort will work and you'll be able to
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: pull yourself out of a bad economic situation and get
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: that kind of uh basic material security.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: But a lot of other times uh probably, in most cases, uh,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: even very hard work is not going to suffice because
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: it's not just a matter of individual effort, it's a
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: systemic issue. It's kind of like, you know, you can
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: think of it in terms of like a, a lottery system.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: You know,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: everyone does have the chance to play the lottery and
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: win it and get rich and, and have that kind
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: of material security. But we all recognize that it's only
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: a very, very, very small percentage of people who will
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: be able to win that lottery. Well, it's the same
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: thing when you're thinking about an economic system.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Uh, in most systems, I would certainly hope that the
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: chance of material improvement is greater than the chance of
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: winning a lottery. But nonetheless, it's a chance. It's a,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: it's a percentage. So the, the, the view of, uh
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: how to improve one's life has to take into, into
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: account the fact that we live in an economic system
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: and the, the most, uh likely way to improve one's
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: own chances and the chances of their uh neighbors to
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: get that material security is by changing the system. So
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: that the, the percentage chance of getting a, getting ma
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: material security uh increases for all.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Could you contextualize that? Using an example, say, wages, right?
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: What would be the benefit of coming together as a
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: community or union or just participating in collective action? And
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: how would that look like compared to going to a
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: bookstore and, and, or listening to a TED talk by
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson or, or any one of these thousands and
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: thousands of hustle culture, bro
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: and personal development gurus and what not again, I don't
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: want to come off as saying that personal development is
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: not good, right? I think we all have to work
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: on ourselves and improve ourselves, but it seems like it
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: tends to be and you know, let's just focus on
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the individual and ignore everything else. Let's just do this.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: You get caught up in this hustle culture kind of
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: thing where ultra wealthy people are writing books and,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: and giving advice instead of of engaging in politics.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Well, OK, so, so you use a, a more concrete example,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: uh uh uh a metaphor for or analogy for the
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: idea of, OK, let's read some self help books and
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: improve myself and then I'm gonna get a leg up
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: on the competition. It's kind of like choosing to improve
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: one's economic situation by going to a casino and betting money.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: But before you go into the casino, you read a
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: lot about how to play the numbers the best, uh
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: how to play blackjack and understand the
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: odds the very best, but it doesn't change the odds.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: It's just improving your, your chances of winning, given the
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: already set odds. Whereas organizing politically is more like changing
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: the rules of the game so that the players in
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: the casino have much better odds. Period, regardless of whether
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: they know how to count cards or calculate the, the
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: percentage chance of this hand in blackjack or poker or whatever,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: take workers in a, in a factory.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Uh You could just focus on yourself and try to
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: be perceived as more of a, of a leader, more
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: of a competent worker uh by your manager so that
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: you have a better chance of being promoted, et cetera.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Um But there's still a, a given percentage chance of
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: actually being able to, to climb the ladder that way.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Whereas if you organize a union in that factory with
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: the collective power of all of the workers, you can
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: change the the actual structure of that company change the
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: wage level, change, the uh working hours, change the management
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: uh uh practices, et cetera, et cetera.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Let's go for a very quick break on the show
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: with me today is Assistant Professor Peter Beatty. He's a
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: political economist and a political psychologist at the Chinese University
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: of Hong Kong. We will continue our discussion after these messages.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Keep it here on beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to what's politics on beyond the ballot box.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I'm Dustin Johan. And with me as always is Assistant
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Professor Peter Beatty, political economist and political psychologist at the
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Chinese University of Hong Kong. And we are talking about
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: why everyone should ideally get involved in politics. This conversation
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: will also be available on podcast. So do subscribe to us.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: You can look up beyond the ballot box on the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: BFM app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast from.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: So Peter,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you know, often times when people think about politics, people
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: think about voting and I think that's a very simple
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and straightforward thing, important. And that often the first step, right,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: you get involved by starting to go to the ballot
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: box whenever there's an election and start voting
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: beyond voting. What are other meaningful ways individuals can participate
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: in politics?
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: I guess the the most important is uh either founding
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: or joining an existing organization and participating actively in it
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to try to grow it, to bring more people into
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: that organization and act collectively as AAA kind of member
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: of a corporate whole, not a, you know,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: business corporation, but you know, a AAA unified kind of
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: organic ho made up of lots of members of the organization.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: And of course, that can cover all sorts of different
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: aspects of a political economy. It could be a, an
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: organization trying to uh uh spread unionization, unionize more businesses.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: It could be
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: a more electoral based organization where you're trying to educate
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the voting public for future elections to get them to
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: vote for a new party or a politician or group
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: of politicians, all sorts of different organizations. But instead of,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: or in addition to merely voting, which is just, you know,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: an hour or two every few years. Uh There's the
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: the the active form of political participation, which is largely
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: the form of joining or founding an organization and getting
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: more people in it.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about political parties. Do you think
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: people should join political parties? I think often times people
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: think within their imagination, right? That joining political parties means
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you want to be a politician contest for elections or
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: become a minister? I think that's the idea that people have.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's important for people to join political
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: parties even if they don't want to become the prime
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: minister of a country one day, for example.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I I'm really struck by
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: uh uh something Mao Zedong wrote uh where he basically
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: just says he writes in these really simple sentences and
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: he just says, look, if you don't have a revolutionary party,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: you can't have a revolution period. Very simple. Uh a,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: a party is not uh you know, just about becoming a,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: a politician or just about elections.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Uh a political party can be a kind of master
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: organization that affects all sorts of change throughout society. And,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: you know, ironically enough, I would point to the, the
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: example of the RSS in India, which was founded originally
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: uh as a, as a kind of uh uh it
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: was modeled on European fascist parties in the 19 twenties
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: and as a a right wing kind of Hindu supremacist organization,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: but they didn't even start off with a, with a
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: political party as their main focus, their main focus was
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: spreading their ideology in as many different ways as possible
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: by founding all sorts of different organizations, including labor unions,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: uh uh uh community groups, all sorts of things. And
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: then their, their focus on a political party. The B
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: JP came much later and they met with, you know,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: now they're the, the ruling party in India. Now I'm
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: not suggesting that you go out and, and uh uh
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: form a fascist uh political organization.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Uh The, the content of their beliefs I think is, is,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: is quite terrible. But the, the tactical uh view that
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: they had and the strategic view they had uh was
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I think quite uh effective and could be profitably copied
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: or followed by people with uh non supremacist uh ideas.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I think this example you just bring up really reminds
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: me not apples to apples comparisons but, but some parallels
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: can be drawn to the Islamist political party in Malaysia
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: past which people listening to this channel may not necessarily
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: like their ideology. In fact, we are probably
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: very, very polar opposites to the ideology. But they understand
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: politics on a level that many progressives in this country
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: do not, they understand community engagement, they understand working with activists.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: They understand that spreading political ideas starts from the ground
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: and it's about spreading the ideas. Not I form a party.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: How do I win the next election? They play the
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: long game
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: and now they are becoming so powerful in unexpected ways.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Many people are shocked by the results of GE 15,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the 15th general elections, but the results are the outcome
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: of years and years of grassroots organizing, regardless of what
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: we think of the ideology.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Do you also think that there is this thing where
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: if we don't, because people often think that I don't
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: want to join a political party politics is dirty. Let's
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: not get involved in all of that. But if we
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: don't join someone else is gonna join, even if there
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: is a sort of center left party which we sort
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: of like,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: you know, and we would vote for, but we don't
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: join them at all. Eventually, business people are going to
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: join tycoons are going to start pumping money into it
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: and because we are not donating, we are not getting involved.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's that? And then, you know, it
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: just even so called progressive parties can just be co
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: opted by the wrong people if we don't get engaged
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: in it?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I totally agree. There, there's a lot of
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: debate about that uh that I've been following in the US.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Uh The idea is that, you know, we, we have
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: to uh found a new party or, or only support
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: uh independent candidates and just leave the, the Democratic Party
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: to the Corporatists.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Um iii, I like the idea of, of founding a
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: new party, if you're talking about actually putting in the
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: work to form a new party. And I think the,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: the example you just gave it reminds me a lot
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: of what I've uh learned about the RSS. And if
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: it works, it works, you know, that it makes sense
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: to emulate what works, uh leaving aside, you know, the,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: the content of their ideology, which is not pertinent to
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: the question of what works.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Um, I take the view that uh yeah, you, you
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: should try to change existing parties if you can take
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: it over. Uh even if it's a hostile takeover and you're,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: you're trying to, to wrest control of a party from
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: its uh the people that currently dominate it.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Uh I say, try everything. I mean, I absolutely, there's
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: going to be pressure for anyone joining an existing party that,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: that differs from their ideology, from their views, from their
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: beliefs about what the good society is. There will be
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: pressure uh to, to change your views to, to fit
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the existing party structure. But I think if you go
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: into it with a strong sense of who you are
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: and what you believe in and that you're trying to
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: change that party in a particular direction.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Um I, I wouldn't worry so much about some sort of,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: you know, like magical power of the establishment or, or
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: the magical power of money that everyone is, is unavoidably
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: going to be corrupted. Uh That doesn't uh convince me that,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: that pessimistic view, I, I say, join them all, try
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to change them or, and, or start a new party.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: How would you respond to people who say, you know,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: they don't have time to get involved in politics?
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I can't, uh, disregard that at all. It's,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: it's a, it's a real problem. It's a real concern. Uh,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: if you're in an economically precarious position, uh, you just
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: don't have leisure time. Uh Even if you have time
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: where you don't have to be working,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: oftentimes, you're too tired and stressed from your, your, your job,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: your worries about your job, your worries about paying bills,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: et cetera. Um I think for, for people in that position, the,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: the most effective form of, of political organizing they can
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: do is in trying to form a union or participating
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: in an already existing union because it's in those kinds of,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: of organizations. It's not just an economic organization, it's a
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: political economic organization.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: So participating in a union that already exists or trying
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: to unionize a workplace that doesn't currently have a union.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Uh can be the stepping stone to a broader political organization.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: You can try to convince fellow union members that you've
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: already established relationships with as you try to improve working
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: conditions there and improve pay, uh you can develop,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: develop those relationships further and get people on board for
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: a broader political project. But, you know, in the, in
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: the short term for people that are, are really stuck
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: in economic precarity and don't have the time or the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: energy to, to involve themselves in, in broader political organizing
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: and action. Um I would say the, the, the most
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: immediate most effective thing they can do is get involved
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: in a, in a union or found a union.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's also a sort of misconception of
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: what getting involved means? And again, if you're working 1415
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: hours a day, trying to put food on the table,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: you need to work 23 jobs a day.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Um I think it's very, very understandable why getting involved
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: politically is a monumental task because your primary worry every
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: day is, can I put food on the table for
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: my kids? Can I make enough money to send my
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: kids to the hospital and things like that?
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: But I think even among middle class people, there is this,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I don't have the time or, and if you really
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: don't have the time, it's a different thing, right? But,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what getting involved. And I'm
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: wondering if one of the reasons for this is because
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: there is a misconception and I just bring up a
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: conversation I had with a couple of friends maybe a
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: month or so ago where I talk about, you know, hey,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: maybe you guys should get involved too because you guys
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: are complaining about wages and the state of the
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: world. But you are not getting involved. Right? And they
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: are like, but, you know, I don't have the time to,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: you know, like you read about politics from morning until night,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: join protests, join rallies, go and speak to NGO S
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: and this and that. But you don't have to do
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: all of that. You don't have to spend morning on
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: tonight reading about politics. You know, that you can leave
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: to the political junkies and the journalists and what not, right.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: The people in academia who, who live and breathe
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: politics, but you can do things like volunteer over the weekend.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Join an organization, talk to your friends and family. Get
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: educated on a particular topic, even if it's just one
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: topic that you feel passionate about, get educated, talk to
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: your families, family and friends just donate, you know, maybe 5%
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: of your, of your income, you know, to an organization,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: you believe in things like that. You can do these
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: things to get involved, at least as a stepping stone. Right?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I, I think that was very well said and,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: and comprehensive. I don't really have much to, to add
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: to that. It, joining an organization, even if you're largely
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: a passive member because you don't have time. You're just,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: you know, you pay dues, you, you, uh, listen to
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: or you read, you know, the, the publication, what have you, you, you, uh,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: share your, your views, give feedback, participate in a, in
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: a mild way. Maybe, uh, there's an event every now
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: and then that you go to,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: ah, that's, that's good as well.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: How would you respond to people who say,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: you know, we need to just take care of ourselves. Um,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: you know, and, you know, I'm, I'm even, that is
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: a challenge. So how can I think about the world? So,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I guess the question is how can individuals balance the
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: pursuit of their personal interests,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: especially in this neo liberal hyper consumerist era? Right? So
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: putting aside the people who have to slog 1516 hours
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a day, how can you find that balance between personal
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: interests with collective action for the greater good?
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I think if you're talking about people who are,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: who are stuck in really serious economic precarity and all
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: of their time is, is more or less influenced by worry,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: anxiety concern over their future, their family's future, et cetera.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: I would just go back to, ok, then, then make
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: your political action very local in your workplace and try
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: to improve your life that
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: because that's engaging in politics, but it's also directly materially
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: improving your life and your ability to take care of
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: yourself and your family. Uh And then that can be
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: AAA stepping stone ideally, you know, after organizing a workplace or,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: or joining a union and uh fighting for better conditions,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: uh higher pay, et cetera. Uh that can then be
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: a stepping stone to broader uh political gains.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: What is the difference between charity and political participation. Because
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: I think many people in the middle class and above
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: donate to charity like an orphanage and things like that.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: And again, I do not want to underplay its importance, right?
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Do whatever you can with whatever capacity you can based
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: on whatever understanding you have, it's better than nothing like
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: keep growing charities need help and support as well.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: But could you clarify the difference between donating to a
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: charity versus donating to an organization which engages in political change?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Somebody uh I forget who it was uh might have
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: been Catherine Lou called charity uh a neo liberal band aid.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Uh Meaning it, it, you know, like a band aid,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: it is helpful. It, it can prevent a wound from
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: getting infected, it can uh speed up the, the healing process.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: But if you, if you have a really serious wound,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: a band aid is, is not going to cut it.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of the role that charity plays in
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: of the world. Today, we have these serious problems that
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: are caused by the economic system, not by, you know,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: individuals doing their individual thing. They're systemic flaws, systemic problems.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: So charities do uh provide some relief, limited relief uh
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: to people suffering from these systemic flaws.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Uh But if you want to get rid of the
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: flaws rather than put a band aid on the the wounds,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: if you want to prevent the wound from being inflicted,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: rather than uh put a little, you know, salve on
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: the wound. Then you have to engage in attempts to
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: change the system. And that is political, that's politics, that's
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: joining organizations, uh donating time and money to organizations to
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: use the power of the state to change the system
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and prevent the wounds from being inflicted in the first
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: place.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: There's this very interesting quote from this archbishop which from
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: decades ago, which I cannot recall his name right now
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: where he says when I feed the poor, they call
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: me a saint. When I asked why the poor have
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: no food, they call me a socialist. And I think
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: that it's a brilliant quote that really encapsulates what you
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: just said. Now, another thing I want to ask you,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Peter is
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: what happens. And I think this is a fear by
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: many and, and that fear is
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: what if I get involved? I start reading about what's
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: going on in society, I start understanding what's really causing
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: what's really happening. You know, I come out of my
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: shell and start engaging politically and you know, reading about
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: the world's problems, reading about imperialism, reading about all these
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: things and it just makes the world look so sad.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: How can,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: what if I get depressed by that? I think there's
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of some of my friends I talk to
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: have that fear
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: and I don't know whether I can confidently say you
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: give them the answer that you won't feel that way
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: because I myself do feel that, that sadness and all
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: of that sometimes, um sometimes it is just way more
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: than just sadness, right? Sometimes, not all the time. But
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: how can individuals maintain a positive outlook while actively participating
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: in political processes, especially in challenging time? Because there is this,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: there always there, this ignorance is bliss argument.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I, I would ask people who, who
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: make the ignorance is bliss argument, which I, you know,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: on some level I, I agree with, uh, but I
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: would ask them, you know, if you're in a monogamous
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: relationship and you were given the option to find out
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: whether your partner is sleeping with somebody else or not.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Would you take that option? I think probably most people
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: would take that option even though they know that if
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: they find out
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: that their seemingly monogamous relationship isn't monogamous, that would be hurtful.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: But nonetheless, they would want to, to find out the
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: truth anyway. I, I kind of see it the same
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: way uh with politics and then the idea to me
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: of getting a, being depressed while you are engaged in
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: political action, uh seems uh a bit like a contradiction
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: in terms because yes,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: if you're an individual and you're not engaged with other
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: people to try to change uh, political economy or the
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: system at all, then, yeah, I think depression is a,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: is a very likely outcome but the way that our
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: our brains are, are, are set up the way that
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: they evolved is to be constantly engaged in a, in
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: a community with other people. So if you're engaged and
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: involved in an
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: organization trying to affect political change, that's an extremely powerful
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: antidepressant because you're, you're constantly with other people. Your social
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: needs for cooper operation and bonding are being met. So
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: that I think more than overcomes the, the, the disappointment
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: or sadness you might experience from learning about how messed
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: up the world is.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: What would you say to activists who
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I guess they will take a different sort of perspective.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: It's not, it's knowing it is participating, it is working
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: so hard with that belief, with that, with that optimism
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: and then failing the state wins or the capitalist wins,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: you know, and then there is that sadness and, and
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: you know, there's this, maybe this anxiety and all that
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that comes or this feeling of just wanting to give up.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: How would you
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: talk to activists and all of that in terms of
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: balancing that
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I'd say uh go visit the, the uh uh museum
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: uh in Guangzhou in, in China that's devoted to a
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: failed uprising in the city in the 19 twenties that
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: was crushed by the, the the state. But the, the
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: museum itself today is, is very kind of uh uh
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: hopeful and upbeat because it's saying, look, these people at
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: this time, they ended up
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: failing in the, in the one in the uprising itself.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: But they succeeded in the long term because they were
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: able to, to win a revolution. Like they basically, this
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: was not a losing a war, this was losing a
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: battle and winning the war. So I would just say,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: you know, you've got to try to keep your eye
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: on the, on the long term uh rather than,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: you know, allowing yourself to be overly discouraged about short
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: term defeats. Uh throughout the history of all conflicts, whether
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: they be military or political. Uh There are plenty of,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: of losses in the short term that end up contributing
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: to a long term victory.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Moving the conversation along to technology, particularly social media. How
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: has social media changed the game in terms of organizing, mobilizing?
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Do you think it has done more good or harm?
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Let's say when we look at the past 10 years
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: compared to the period of the seventies, eighties and nineties,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: because just on this, you know, just quickly looking at it,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: it seems like on the one hand,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: it's easier to just connect with everyone. You know, it's
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: easy to create a whatsapp group, you have 2030 people
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: in it, you know, that's already a form of organizing.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: But on the other hand, we have echo chambers and
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: seems like polarization is on the rise, it seems like
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: social media is the worst embodiment of toxicity and polarization
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: of a society.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: How do you think social media and technology in general
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: has sort of changed the game in terms of organizing mobilizing,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: being politically engaged. All of it.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I think on the one hand that the potential is
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: uh it, it's increased the potential massively for effective organization
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: that the technology itself just inherently as a technology has,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: has uh created the ability for people to connect with
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: other people and organize other people to an extent.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And that, you know, organizers in the early 19 hundreds would,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: would cut off their leg to be able to, to
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: have a technology, right? But it reminds me when I
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: was researching my book reading about uh people in the
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: 19 twenties, talk about radio technology. And they were saying like,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: oh my God, this technology is going to eliminate ignorance
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: uh as it spreads, you know, your people are gonna
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: be listening to lectures and, and concerts and people are
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: gonna be so cultured and well educated because of the
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: potential of this technology.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: And then of course, as we know it is radio
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: technology and MTV, technology basically got colonized by uh profit
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: making corporations and the these technologies were not used to
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: educate people, they were used to make money with pretty
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: bad consequences for society. Overall. I think you could say
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: much the same thing about social media that the the
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: technology in itself has incredible potential to facilitate education, to
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: facilitate organization.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: But the way that it's, it's used and the people
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: who have the money to leverage that technology uh has
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: resulted in that technology being used for a lot of,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: you know, bad things. Um I don't know how it
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: is in, in Malaysia, but my friends in, in India
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: talk about how uh uh technologies like whatsapp uh have
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: been used by the, the, the far right by the
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: RSS and their political party, the B JP to spread
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: all sorts of
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: uh you know, horrible ideas uh to discriminate against the
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Muslims and lower caste people, et cetera, et cetera, spreading rumors.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Uh So, absolutely, I know, I, I can't deny that
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: these technologies have been used to produce really bad outcomes,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: but there is a, a potential there. Um I would
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: just say, you know, to, to look at uh
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: how you, how you use your, your time and effort.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: If you find that using social media technology is effective at,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: at getting to people absolutely. Use a lot of time
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: in that if you find out that the way that
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: the algorithm algorithms are set up are not allowing your
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: message to uh spread to many people, then consider, you know,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: cutting down some of your time there and doing more
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: face to face uh organizing
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: certainly in the US. That's, that's very much needed. I
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: don't know if, if levels of alienation and enemy and
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: disconnection from other people and, and feeling alone, loneliness. I
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: don't know. I would kind of doubt that they're as
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: high in Malaysia. As they are in the US. But
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: at least for those people who do feel a great
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: sense of
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: loneliness, uh face to face organizing can really attract people
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: beyond the, the, the power of your, your political arguments
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: so that the power of the, the message that we
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: need to have solution A B and C for problems XYZ.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: In addition to that just the, the human connection can
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: really draw people.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Um So sorry, long answer. But I would, you know,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: I think social media has a lot of potential. Uh
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely do try to use it. I would just say
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: if you find that you're not getting to people because
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: the algorithm is not allowing that, then consider spending more
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: of your time. Uh IRL in the real world face
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: to
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: face. Absolutely. And you know, just because you brought up Malaysia,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I can see that, you know, maybe I'm not sure
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: how it compares 100% to the US, whether it's as terrible,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: but I can say that it is terrible here, whether
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: it comes to far, right, messaging by ethno religious groups,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: especially when it comes to election periods, it's false history,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: it's rewriting of history to, to, you know, marginalize even
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: further or to make scapegoats out of ethnic minority, sexual minorities,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: you know, all in the name of political theater to
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: drive a wedge between society. All of that is, it's
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: rampant here as well. Whatsapp tiktok, all of it before
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: we wrap this conversation up, Peter. Would you have a
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: final message for us on the importance of getting engaged
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: in politics, collective action when it comes to solving societal issues?
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you might have heard the phrase before.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: You may not be interested in politics but politics is
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: interested in you. Uh unless you're living self sufficiently somewhere
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: on an island uh with your family and that's it. You,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: no matter what you think of it are a part
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: of society. And if your uh uh position in society
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: is causing you pain,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: uh economic precarity, et cetera, then the only way to,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: to really fix that uh for you and your, your
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: family and your neighbors and the society overall is by
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: changing the structure of the system. And the only way
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: you can change something as, as, as immense as a
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: political economic system is through organization and organized activity.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And Peter on that note, thank you so much for
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: joining me today. My pleasure. That was assistant Professor Peter Beatty.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: He's a political economist and a political psychologist at the
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Chinese University of Hong Kong. If you missed any part
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: of this conversation, you can also check us out on
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: podcasts were available on the BFM app, Spotify or pretty
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: much wherever you get your podcast from, I'm Dustin Johan
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: and this has been beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: You have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: the business station for more stories of the same kind.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Download the BFM app.