Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / How to Negotiate Your Money! Ep. 35

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How to Negotiate Your Money! Ep. 35 · Chef's PSA Podcast

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Hello chefs, you're listening to chefs PS a podcast, I'm your
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host Andhra Tara on today's episode we're going to talk
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salary, negotiation and some strategies that you could do to
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make sure that you're getting the most amount of money that
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you could get for yourself. So stay tuned.
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So first, let's get into a small update boy.
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I wish I could tell you what, I've been up to this week, but
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I've been up to a lot. And unfortunately, a lot of it
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is secret projects that I cannot update you on.
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So, unfortunately, the things that have kept me occupied this
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week, I'm not allowed to speak about, but I did update the the
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way, the chef's PSAs look on Instagram.
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So, I changed up the font a little bit.
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I added a little graphic on there.
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I only did it because I get bored of looking at the same
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shit every day. I'm sure you guys understand
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like you do the same thing over. It's like okay, I don't like how
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this looks. I let me just update it rapid
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prototype. Make it look different.
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So I know some of you have bested me and say, go back to
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the old format. We like the old font better and
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other people have messaged me and said, I like the new format.
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It's great. And so I was on the fence
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because people that I really respect have said, they don't
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like it and people I really respect have told me.
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They do like it. So I'm going to keep it for now.
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Maybe I'll get Used to it, and I'll start to like it.
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I'm not 100% sold on it. I'm not saying I won't go back
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to the old to look, but I kind of like the new look.
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It's like the old Coke versus New Coke.
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If anyone remembers that anyway, I'm keeping it for now on
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Twitter. The other day, which by the way,
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I keep telling people chefs need to get on Twitter Twitter's
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where it's at. There's a lot more fun and
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action on Twitter than there is on Tick, Tock or Instagram,
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really. I mean it's a g fun to Instagram
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is like my second favorite, but Twitter is my primary Resource
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of online social entertainment just because everyone's arguing
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back and forth, it's like it's like making delicious s'mores
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over a dumpster fire. That's what Twitter's like.
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But anyway on Twitter the other day I put the 50 most important
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chefs PSA. So like everyone always ask me
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like what are the most important?
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So I kind of went through a mall, you know, the past year of
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PSAs and I was like, okay, which ones are the most important ones
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that if I had to give you you know, 50 without the commentary
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just like short bullet points like learn how to use.
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Instead of Algin it's like what or NaCl right for people that
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people that couldn't figure out what NaCl is that salt.
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Anyway, so I put the 50 most important chefs PSAs, on
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Twitter, you should go read that thread because because it is
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very good. I do get a lot of DMS and
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questions on, you know, what do I think about this and what do I
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think about that? Or how should I handle this
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situation? A lot of the questions are the
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same ones that I get often. So I feel like I find myself on
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repeat sometimes saying the same things over and And over again.
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So, this was a good opportunity for me to say, hey, look, these
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are the 50 most important things if you're new in the kitchen, or
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if you just work in a kitchen, these are the 50 most important
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things that I would tell someone like do this.
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It's like what's the movie with Will Ferrell where he goes into
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prison and he has to get coached hon on, you know how to behave
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in prison. So like if someone was coaching
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you like, hey, you're about to do this.
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This what you need to know, like these are the rules that apply
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in most kitchens. Now the other day, someone said
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to me what did they say anyway well I'm paraphrasing what they
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said but they said they feel like a lot of the chefs PSAs are
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designed for the chef and not necessarily for the cook
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something like that, but that's false.
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So the chef's PSAs are designed and I thought about this the
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other day, the chef's PSAs are designed to help you out because
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they provide a standard for about the 80% rule.
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The PSA should cover about 80% of all kitchens that you work
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in, but that doesn't mean that it applies in all kitchen.
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So, if the PSA applies for you and your kitchen great, use it,
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if it doesn't apply for your kitchen, great, don't use it or
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maybe use it. If it's a good habit that you
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could get into and initially when I started chefs PSA.
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So let's go back. Let's rewind about a year and a
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half because initially, I started shows PSA on my personal
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Instagram and it was a way for me to Give messages for my cooks
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and chefs that follow me and my echo chamber of Chef friends
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that I know. And the initial chefs PSA was
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like, okay, this all makes sense to us but it doesn't always make
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sense to every single kitchen out there.
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And the reason I say that's important is because something
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that I thought about recently is as my audience has grown and I
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interact with a lot of different chefs from all types of
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restaurants and this is really amazing and fun for me.
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I actually I enjoy interacting with Chef Learning from the
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people that I interact with about kitchen culture, almost as
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much as maybe they're learning for me.
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Because I'm maybe kitchens types of kitchens that I didn't work
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in people message me and ask me questions, what do you think
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about being a private Chef? For example, I was like, well, I
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can't comment on it. I've never been a private Chef,
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I just found out I'm like the number one Chef podcast in the
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Philippines I think and also in maybe Qatar I thought was pretty
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cool. That's like why the Philippines
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have, why Qatar? And it's like, oh, I know why?
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Because I've had a lot of employees in the past that have
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come from the Philippines and Qatar.
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So it must have, they must have started listening to it, or
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whatever. But anyways, I think about the
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impact that Chef PSA is making. I'm a lot more cautious on the
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things that I say. Because I know if I say it, Some
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people take it as literal and there, I don't want people going
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up to their chef and say well chefs PSA said this and it's
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like than their chefs dming Mesa.
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Did you say this to my cook? Did you tell did you tell them?
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They had to fold their towels? We don't use towels in this
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kitchen. How dare you?
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Anyway, It's something that I think about often it's like I
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realized that some of these PSAs.
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I got to be a little bit more careful where the early days I
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was much more Reckless with what I was saying.
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I was like, yeah, this is the way and if you don't like it
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don't work in this kitchen. But anyway now it's like oh
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yeah, that that's not how that works.
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In your kitchen, got it? That makes sense.
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Anyway, we digress. Let's talk about how to get paid
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and I should say this, I do get a lot of DM's about, you know,
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have negotiating salary for this.
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I wrote a chapter in it, I wrote a chapter about it in my book,
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culinary leadership fundamentals, there's a chapter
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on negotiation and salary negotiation and strategies that
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you could do. But let's just pretend for the
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sake of this episode that you came to me and we're asking me
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for advice on how to get more money as a cook or how to get
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more money as a chef, right? So So, from two different
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perspectives. Now, shout out to Cleaver and
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Blade the other day. If you're not following that
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count, by the way, you should post some hilarious things.
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Anyway, I think that account is funny.
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But anyway, shout out to Cleburne Blade the other day.
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He posted something about how to earn more money in the kitchen
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and, you know, the equation of started as a cook.
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You should be making. When I don't remember what he
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said, maybe your, you should be able to pay your rent with with
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A week's paycheck or with, you know, you're getting paid.
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Maybe it was half your paycheck, I don't remember what he said.
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But anyway, got into this big debate and he tagged me in it to
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comment. Now, I do get questions a lot
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about salary and and people ask me, you know, should I say they
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want me to speak on, you know, the wage disparity between this
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that and the other and I have been reluctant to touch on the
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subject. And I'll tell you all, why I'm
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reluctant to touch on this subject is because it's not as
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easy as people. People say it is like just pay
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everyone more money and that solves all the problems.
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Because if it was that easy, I would come out and say, yeah,
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just just pay everyone more money, their issue, salt.
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And the reason I don't speak about it because I don't like to
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talk about things that I don't have, I don't have an
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understanding on, it's like a Rubik's Cube and I'm keep
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playing with it. And it's like, okay, you're
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asking me how to solve the Rubik's Cube but I haven't
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solved it myself. So how am I going to teach you
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how to solve it? I don't know.
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I don't know. And it's the conversation when
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it comes to Wages in restaurants.
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Yes it's an issue and I'm not oblivious to the fact that that
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it's an issue and I'm not oblivious to the fact that we
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have a lot of issues from you know inflation to currency
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debasement. There's a there's a lot going on
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and people need to make more money, right?
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Cost of living is going up, etcetera, Etc.
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But how do we fix the issue? I don't know.
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I really don't know and I think I'm frustrated sometimes with it
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because I'm not sure if I could speak on it.
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I don't know if I have a good answer.
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So anyway, that was a long rant and we haven't even started
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talking about negotiating, your salary.
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So let's start from the perspective of some general
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things. When you go and apply for a job,
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I think my strategy is I always ask for more money than I really
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want. That is because they're going to
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talk you down. So let's just say, I'm going in
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and I want $25 an hour, right? That's what I want.
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I might go into any twenty seven dollars an hour or let's say I
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want a certain salary of X. Well, I'm going to go in and ask
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for anywhere from 15 to 20 percent.
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More than what my salary is. Because a lot of places you're
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going to say that's a little too much and they're going to try
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and talk you down and when they talk you down, hopefully that'll
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get you closer to what your Real number is Right.
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Another thing that I do is I try to get very specific with the
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number. So let's just say we're talking
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salary and let's just say I want to Chef salary and I go up and I
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say, I want applying for a sous chef job.
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I want fifty five thousand seven hundred dollars in 63 cents,
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right? So if I, when you're that
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specific on the number and you go in and say, I need this test
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with 63 sensors and $72, this is a negotiation tactic that I
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learned from reading the book and taking a class from Chris
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Voss, who wrote the book, never split the difference, and he
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talks about this. That when you are that specific
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on your salary request, it indicates to the person
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interviewing you that you've done your homework and that that
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number is almost non negotiable. So I've used this tactic in the
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past and I've gotten more than that number, but never less.
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Now I haven't used it a ton of times because it wasn't changing
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jobs all the time. But the few times that I have
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used it, I've gotten that exact number or more.
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And so I could say that it's worked and I could see why it
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works. And if there's a whole book
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written about using that tactic, I would imagine that it works.
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So being very specific on the number that you're asking for is
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a good thing. The other thing I do is I ask
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for more than what I want. So again let's say I'm
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negotiating a chef job, I might say give me a monthly dining out
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stipend so I could go eat at other restaurants.
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I want a bonus based on these metrics what my own parking
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spot, maybe two other things right?
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So I'll go in and I'll negotiate at these five.
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Now the real thing I own, let's just say the real thing I want
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is I want a bonus, right? I could care less about the
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other things. The reason I'll ask for for more
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items or three, more items than what I really want is that when
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they come back and say, that's a little bit unreasonable, we
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can't do all of that. Then you can say, okay, take
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these two off, right? And now they're gonna say, oh
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this, this gentleman's were lady is very reasonable, and let's
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give you what you want, right? You You seem like a reasonable
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person, that's willing to negotiate.
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And now they feel like, ah, I got one over on him.
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He wanted all this. But I only gave him that bit in
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the end. You're actually the one that
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one, right? So those are a couple of things
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that I do when I'm negotiating salary.
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Something else. I want to talk about is the
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promises that can be made up front.
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Like oh, in will give you more money.
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Let's hire you at this rate and then you prove yourself and then
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we'll give you more money on this date.
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I would say be careful with that.
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I've seen it go sideways. A lot of Of times where that
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more money never comes in.they, the promises of more money later
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don't always come through. If they could pay you more money
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later they could pay you more money.
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Now, the way I look at it, a lot of places will say, will give
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you a raise in 90 days. I'll say, well, give me this now
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and then in 90 days, give me more right?
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When you accept a job and a lot of places you have to understand
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that the reality is you might be stuck with that salary for a
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year. So do not accept the job.
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If you're not happy with a salary, it's not fair to you and
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it's not fair to the person that Are you right?
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If you've made an agreement with the person that's hiring you and
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you say, hey, I'll accept twenty dollars an hour for this
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position and then you start in two weeks later and you say,
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actually, I need 22. It's like, well, why didn't you
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say that up front? Right?
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Maybe I would have given you the 22.
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But for those of you that have never been in the position, if
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you're working in a corporation, right?
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It's not so easy to just go and say I need I need to give them a
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two dollar raised, right? The negotiation needs to happen
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up front because sometimes when you're working in a more
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structured corporate environment There's checks and balances and
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it could get vetoed one or two levels above the person that
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you're asking. And they don't care, they don't
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work with you, they don't know you.
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And it's much easier for them to say, no, because they're not
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impacted by their answer. So it's important that you ask
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for everything up front and also think about it like you.
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Hire someone you've had the opportunity to negotiate up
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front, you start working and then two weeks later you come
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and you say, well, you want more money that's frustrating for the
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person that hired you as well, right?
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Be upfront with what you Want and then in the negotiation
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phase, but like I said, ask for everything you want and that's
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the time to get it if they could.
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Like I said, Thank you, give you more money later.
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They can give you more money now.
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Be cautious of the more money later thing, because I've seen
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many times it doesn't come through.
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Now, if you're negotiating a chef position and they're
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talking bonuses, Etc. Make sure you get that in
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writing and make sure you check with those bonuses are, and make
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sure that they are achievable. I've seen many places, I've been
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a chef of places where they say, you'll get a bonus.
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If you hit all these metrics and I'm like, yeah, that sounds
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great. But the reality was like, I
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never got a bonus because those kpis, we're never achievable.
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I could never, I could never get them there.
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Were there were so far out of reach that I was never able to
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achieve them? So I was never able to get that
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bonus. So you want to make sure like
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okay what is the bonus based on these metrics?
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Great. Can I see the numbers and how
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often these bonuses are achieved?
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Because then it's like OK, they're dangling.
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A big carrot in front of you like oh we're going to give you
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20 to 30 percent bonus but you'll never get it.
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So it's like Even talk about it because they've moved the
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goalposts so far that you'll never be able to achieve that
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with the within reason. So keep that in mind, ask up
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front to see that. Make sure you get it in writing,
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same thing when it comes to. Like they're going to give you
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ownership, they're going to give you partnership all that.
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Make sure you have it in, writing everything that you that
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you negotiate, make sure that you get it up front.
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Like I said before, you accept the job, that is the time to
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negotiate your chances of getting it during the
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negotiation phase. Are significantly higher than
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they are. Once you're in the building,
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once you're in the building, it's more difficult, much more
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difficult. And I would say, I think when
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you're in the building, you probably have a 20% shot of
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getting what you want, versus an 80% shot at, getting it when
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you're in the pre-negotiation phase.
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And I'm speaking from experience because I've had to deal with
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negotiation for many many years. As as an executive, chef has a
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regional Chef as a An owner at cetera.
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So keep that in mind. Now let's talk about some
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strategy if you're in the building.
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So let's just say you're a cook, when you go in and, you know,
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you've proven your time and you're ready to move up and, you
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know, you're not getting enough money.
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I think the right thing to do is to go speak to the person that
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makes the decision. So let's just say, this is your
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cook, let's say you need to go speak to the chef.
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So you'd say, Chef, how am I doing?
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And they're going to tell you how you're doing.
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And then you're going to say I have a lot of passion and desire
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to move up into the next position.
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Ian what, you know, can I move into the next position?
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I need to make more money etcetera cost-of-living
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adjustments. Paint the picture, explain to
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them. Why you want to go there?
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But the worst thing you could do is say if you, if you if you
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don't give me more money, I'm going to quit like that is the
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worst thing you could do is if say if you don't pay me, I'm
16:25
out. Because if you come at someone
16:29
combative they're going to come back at you.
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Combative like how many times does blown up in people's faces?
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Say if you don't give me more money, I'm going to quit in this
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a fine quit, right? Right.
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Like that's that might they might not always say that but I
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guarantee you that's the first thought going through their head
16:43
is like Give me more money or I quit will fuck you quit quit
16:47
them. Like that's going to be most
16:49
people's natural reaction so I think that's a bad strategy to
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go in and say if you don't give me more money, I'm going to
16:54
quit. I think the right strategy is to
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go in and say these are some things that I have in my
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lifestyle that I need to start making more money.
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And I'm hoping that we could work together because I really
17:02
enjoy working here and I don't want to have to get a second job
17:05
or think about leaving. Because I really feel like this
17:08
is family, etc, etc. And they're going to say, okay,
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well, here are the things that you need to do to get to the
17:15
next job. They're going to when they say
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this, by the way, this one you take out your handy chefs, PSA
17:21
recipe journal or notebook and you and a pen and you start
17:24
writing down what they tell you. So they say you need to do this,
17:27
you need to do that. You need to do the other right
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at all. Down everything that they tell
17:30
you that you need to do to improve to get more money.
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Make sure you write it down and then you do it.
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And the reason I say write it down is because if they see you
17:37
writing it down, it puts a little bit of urgency on their
17:40
part. Then they know is like okay.
17:41
Oh shit, I gotta They're writing it down.
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I actually have to keep my word. So now when you go back to them
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and you say, Okay based on our conversation you said I needed
17:50
to do XY and z and then they're going to say yes, did you do it?
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Yes, I've done x, y, and z. Now, can we talk about more
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money? Now you've demonstrated
18:01
responsibility and at this point they have, they have an option
18:04
as they could dangle another carrot and say, well, do this
18:06
that and the other, or they're going to give you the money now,
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if they do dangle, the carrot and say, do the next XYZ, Then
18:13
you know, it's probably time to start looking your never going
18:15
to get the money like at a certain point, you have to
18:18
realize. Okay, hmm, I'm probably not
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going to get the money. So, those are the things that I
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would say is number one. If you want more money, make
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sure you approach it in a respectful way, not in a
18:27
combative way. And when they give you feedback
18:30
on what you need to do to improve, make sure you do that
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right now, as I said, go in and ask for more than you really
18:36
need. Because if you go in and say, I
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need a five-dollar raise, they might say, the best I could do
18:40
is 250, right? So go in and ask for a ten
18:42
dollar race and they might come in and say the best I could do
18:44
is five. Now, I can tell you most places
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don't want to lose. Good Cooks, right.
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Good cooks are so hard to come by right now and most places
18:51
don't want to lose good. Cook.
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So they will find a way if you're really good.
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They'll will find a way to hopefully try and keep you
18:57
within their means. And assuming that they have the
18:59
means to keep you. So do keep that in mind.
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Now, let's talk about just making yourself valuable right
19:05
to the organization in which you're working.
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If you have someone that's really valuable, you're able to
19:11
get more money, right? Because they don't want to lose
19:14
you. They want to pay you more.
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I think the attitude of I'll do more when you pay me more.
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Is the wrong answer, especially if you're trying to move.
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Up into a sous chef roller and exec Chef Royal, if you have two
19:25
people and I know I've used this example before, if you have two
19:27
people and one person says, I'll do more.
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When you pay me and the other person's the go-getter and says,
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I'll do it anyway because I love what I'm doing.
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The person who is the go-getter, most likely will always get the
19:39
job. And the reason that is is
19:41
because they're demonstrating that they will do it.
19:44
Okay. The person who says I'll do it
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more when you pay me, it's a risk.
19:49
So if you're the, if you're the chef or if you're the restaurant
19:51
owner and The decision-maker? You say, hmm?
19:54
Who's more likely to do it? The person that says they'll do
19:57
it or the person who's demonstrating that they're going
19:59
to do it. Well, you could almost guarantee
20:02
that the person who's doing it, regardless will do it.
20:04
But your 50/50, if the person who says they'll do it, when you
20:08
pay them, will do it. So, you're going to give it to
20:10
the person who is willing to do more, right?
20:13
I saw this the other day, someone was talking about, don't
20:17
don't make yourself Irreplaceable, right?
20:20
And I don't know, I would say. Don't make yourself a crutch to
20:25
the restaurant but the more value that you bring the more
20:28
valuable you are so they're going to pay you more money.
20:31
That's that's just the way it works.
20:34
If anyone could do your job then they could hire anyone to do it.
20:38
But if you are unique and you bring a unique skill set and
20:41
you're harder to replace than you're in the restaurants mind
20:46
you might be worth paying a couple dollars more because they
20:49
don't want to lose you because it's going to be very hard to
20:52
find. Someone that cooks perfect
20:54
steaks or makes perfect pizza, or whatever the case may be, if
20:58
you're running a pizza restaurant, you don't want to
20:59
lose your best pizza guy. You might be okay with saying,
21:02
hey, I'm not going to lose my best pizza guy, but I could, you
21:05
know, the person that chops, the basil I can lose them because
21:08
everyone knows how to chop basil, but not everyone knows
21:11
how to stretch Pizza like Andre, right?
21:14
So that's something that you could think about as well.
21:16
I do think you should put yourself in a position to be
21:18
valuable because the more valuable you are.
21:21
It's in the words, the more People, you are the more money
21:24
you're going to make right at the end of the day.
21:26
That's that's what this is all about.
21:29
It is about the passion. It is about loving the industry
21:31
in this that and the other and all the romance that goes with
21:34
it. But at the end of the day you
21:35
got to pay your bills. And, you know, you want to make
21:37
the most amount of money that you can.
21:39
And I, you know, going back to my point earlier.
21:42
I can't tell you how to change the system.
21:45
It's not something that I can figure out on my own, but what I
21:49
can tell you is, when you're in the system, this is how you make
21:53
more money, right? Because I do know that I've seen
21:56
it in action and that's the world that I know.
21:58
I'm hoping that we get to a point eventually when the
22:03
industry is much more sustainable, much more
22:05
profitable and everyone makes more money.
22:06
I'm hoping that of course I want that for everybody, but I also
22:11
live in the real world and say, okay, but that's not the game
22:15
that we're playing. We're playing on this chessboard
22:16
and these are the rules that were playing.
22:17
And so, how do we win this game? And that's what I'm here to talk
22:20
about is how do we win this game in particular?
22:21
So, E way. I hope I've been able to give
22:25
you some strategies. And some best practices when it
22:29
comes to negotiating, right? Actually, I want to go back and
22:35
say, one more thing there is something called Arbitrage.
22:38
And what that is is, you know, if those of you that might not
22:40
know the term, it's like you buy something at one price and you
22:43
sell it for another price than you profit the difference,
22:45
right? So the same thing applies, you
22:47
know there's there's currency Arbitrage, there's whatever
22:49
right? But anyway, the same thing
22:51
applies in salary Arbitrage. So let's just say you're working
22:54
at one place and they're paying you $10 an hour, you go to the
22:56
other place, they're paying you $15 an hour.
22:58
So you say, okay, I'm going to go work here, you make $15 an
23:00
hour and then they call you and say, hey, we want you to come
23:02
back. And then you say, okay, But you
23:03
got to pay me $20 an hour. So now you just got a ten dollar
23:06
raised just by going back and forth between jobs and that's a
23:09
real thing. And I've seen it play out.
23:12
A lot of times when you work for corporations, you get to the
23:15
standard three percent raise, right?
23:17
That's, that's pretty standard. And most most companies like oh
23:21
you've worked hard for your. Here's your three percent,
23:23
right? And with inflation, that's a 5%
23:25
pay cut because inflation is 88 percent or whatever.
23:29
So, so anyway, the reason I say you want to look at this,
23:33
Arbitrage is a lot of people will leave their company because
23:37
that's the only way they could make more money and then they
23:39
will come back, right? So that's also something to
23:43
think about as you could leave where you work right now and
23:46
say, okay I'm going to go work at so-and-so because I know
23:48
they're going to pay me a couple dollars more.
23:50
And then I know my boss is going to call me back and you say Well
23:52
they're paying me $15 here, I got to go back and you know,
23:56
they give you whatever, right? So there is the Irish angle.
24:00
However, a little bit of caution with that is.
24:04
Sometimes you live with a little bit of a bad taste in people's
24:07
mouth when you do that because it's like, they want you to come
24:09
back so bad and then you come back but they kind of resent
24:11
you. It's like, it's like dating
24:13
someone. It's like they break up with you
24:15
to go with someone else and then they come and they say no.
24:19
No, that person's a Loser. Come back and then they come
24:21
back. It's like I don't know if I want
24:23
you back. Now you were with that loser.
24:24
So anyway, you gotta you gotta remember that to write.
24:28
So Keep that in mind, like Arbitrage is a good way to get
24:31
money but it's also a dangerous game because it may come with a
24:34
little bit of resentment. So anyway, that's going to wrap
24:38
up today's show. Thank you all for listening
24:42
whatever you're listening on. So Spotify Apple podcast
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whatever. Make sure you leave five stars
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something less. So anyway, if you want to
25:07
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25:10
So, I just wrote to the kitchen Art of War.
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You could go get that. That's honestly, in my opinion,
25:15
the best thing I've ever written.
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There's the culinary leadership fundamentals book, how not to be
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25:22
Cook survival manual. You can see the merge that we
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25:34
See you next week at the porno music.