Latest / The DM Sales Gal: Close Sales in DMs with Instagram Stories, Lead Generation & High-Ticket Sales Strategies / How to Use Data (Yes, Math!) to Increase Your Sales Conversion Rate | Ep 26

Transcript

How to Use Data (Yes, Math!) to Increase Your Sales Conversion Rate | Ep 26 · The DM Sales Gal: Close Sales in DMs with Instagram Stories, Lead Generation & High-Ticket Sales Strategies

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Sales at the end of the day, if you want to be like a masculine bro about it, which sometimes we need to be, is math.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: If your Instagram stories and your Instagram DMs are bringing you 16k hot and steamy leads, and you're not exactly at the sales goal you want to be at for this quarter, I've got you.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Hey sales friends, I'm Alyssa, your cheap sales gal.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: I've been in business for 11 years and I currently run a Done For You lead generation and lead management agency with Instagram DMs.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm about to show you guys all of the juicy sales things on Instagram, Instagram stories to get new leads, and closing sales in the DMs and with sales calls.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: So let's get into all of the juicy details.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Hi guys, welcome back to the DM Sales Gal.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited to introduce a new guest to you today.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: My new pal, Danielle Clem.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: We found each other on threads and I went bananas when I saw her Instagram, which is all about conversion rates and optimization and funnels, how to make your sales even more efficient.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Which, if you guys have been listening, you know I'm all about that.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna let Danielle go ahead and introduce herself and her incredible title, which is one of a kind.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: I've never heard anybody else with this exact same title or any title about conversions.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk all about conversions, we're gonna talk about how to make it into case studies, and I will let Danielle introduce herself and then we will get into some juicy things.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Alyssa.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to be here.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's always uh an interesting thing, interesting thing to try and talk about yourself.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna try and keep it as short and sweet as I can.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: So as Alyssa mentioned, I do conversion optimization for funnels and launches.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: And so, really, what that means is helping you for a lot of people who are in the course creation side who your entire reason for selling, unless you're good at DMs, which is what Alyssa can help you with, usually the things that sell your courses, your programs are your emails and your pages, like your funnel.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: And so if your funnel is not actually helping pull the weight of having and helping replace you selling, not like actually you still should be selling, but what I find a lot of times people come to me where they've gotten sales before, they have a proven product, they have done usually one or two launches before they got to me, really proof of concept, but they're really needing help to then translate this into feeling more seamless and more predictable in a way that's not just adding more offers, more pages and revamping.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: I think it's where what I kind of bring to the table is different than someone who helps with just funnel creation, where you're just creating a page once and like a funnel once saying, good luck, goodbye.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: For me, I try and stick a long stick around long enough to once you have that thing up, be able to see, okay, based on the actual data.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: So looking at the heat map recordings, looking at surveys, using that actual data that shows what your people are asking for, whether it be through their actions or through their words, and then applying that to your funnel and to your launches, so you can have a more profitable and effective launch and funnel going forward.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm so excited for us to talk about all of these juicy details.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, I'm at the stage of business.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I've been in business for 11 years, and I want to ask you too, before we get into more details, where in the world are you?
3:12
SPEAKER_00: I know somewhere with horses, and how long have you been in business?
3:16
SPEAKER_00: We were talking about horses before this, guys.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: We did, we did.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I'm in Northern California, so I'm about an hour away from Sacramento.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm kind of like right in between Sacramento and the Bay Area, and so I've been in business.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I started in 2017, so I'll be like right about hitting my 10 year uh I think next year.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's been a really fun sometimes journey and definitely an evolution.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: As I think I started initially as a website designer, and then through that realized people need more than just a pretty billboard, moved into like meta and funnel ads, built a funnel and ads agency, and then realized people really think ads are the answer, but then their funnel's not converting their people, so they're just having like a list of people who are just there.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of what led me into the work I do now.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm taking notes too on every wonderful thing that Danielle is talking about.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, I love how we have, you know, momentarily misplaced where our original like career position was.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: I am that way as well, of all the ones that I've been through.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: And look, a lot of my closest friends and colleagues these days are money numbers data people in some way.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, I really like get along well with CPAs, CFOs, my client Emily Williams, who you definitely should know, is all about like productization and how to increase conversions for a launch and have like a predictable launch.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: She's probably the most like data nuts person I've ever worked with, besides my past client Ashley Cruz, who does ads.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: So Emily does offer productization and knows how to like launch and do a launch that's just predictable as fuck.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: And then Ashley also will will like audit ads for webinars and masterclasses, and also like knows how to make sales predictable as fuck.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: So those people like you become a lot of people's friends, but you guys are a lot of my favorite people because you know I tell people too at the beginning, and we're gonna get into this as well.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Sales at the end of the day, if you want to be like a masculine bro about it, which sometimes we need to be, is math.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: There's so much strategy, and everything you see, and the design, and the market demand, and the price, all of this matters, but for me, planning a launch, planning my monthly revenue, quarterly revenue depends first on numbers.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: What were the past numbers and what can we predict for the future?
5:45
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like you're an expert at that as well.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to start with what people are facing with sales and numbers right now, which is, and I'm having this conversation with my clients right now in Slack.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: So let's say that we're going into October, November.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a busy season in terms of somehow our business world turned like online business into like holiday-focused offers.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like, you know, targeting Costco or having sales, so let's do it too.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: So if we're going into Black Friday, dun dun dun, black Friday, Cyber Monday, holidays, Thanksgiving, all these different things, what are people coming to you asking about their launches?
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Are you mostly dealing with people are they about to launch?
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Have they launched before?
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are they planning and asking you about?
6:39
SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting because we are hitting the holiday season, and I feel like holidays, sales and that kind of stuff is just a different beast entirely because it is truly one of the most competitive times.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's one of my least favorite things to do when I was running ads, because you're competing against corporations that have millions of dollars in budget and you're having to like fight in a way, and not like fight actually, but you're it does matter.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And so I found that a lot of people have been coming to me.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: So I'm someone also that you'll find.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: I, even though I'm here to help you create a better launch and funnel, I am not someone who does like seven or like three a day, seven a day turnarounds.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And so I had someone come to me with a previous client who was wanting kind of like a updated sales page and lead magnet tuna, but her boot camp was in two weeks.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I I love you.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: There's just no way.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: Because I have other clients and stuff like that.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: And so I will say the first thing I think we always forget during this time is to plan ahead.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Because I find whenever I'm talking to people about Black Friday or holiday, they come to me in like October or like the end of September, where, yeah, I want to do Black Friday.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, you're really going at the edge of it because you only have, you know, a couple weeks, and even then there's businesses now who are doing earlier than Black Friday to try and like not be close to Black Friday.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: So then it's kind of more of like early November.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I find that the first thing people kind of think about and misrealize with the holiday season, especially with again Black Friday, is thinking it'll be easy, just because it's a Black Friday, like we're in the mentality of it.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's something that I I think I have a podcast episode too about this forever ago, where Black Friday, even though it sounds easy because we're all supposed to be in the mindset of like, yeah, we're all gonna get sales and look for them, that doesn't always mean that we are looking specifically for whatever program or or offer you have.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, also too, we're moving into gifts for family, gifts for friends.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: And so that kind of I think more product side makes sense, but for courses and programs, I think it's a little bit harder to compete in a way during that time.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you can't, but like that is something to really be mindful of.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: I agree, like the attention span is so important with sales, um, and and like during the holidays too.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like sitting here thinking of holiday gifts and like US attention span.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: And I was telling my clients this earlier today.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: I have like clients who so we do DM sales, and I have clients sometimes who will bring in leads to us and be like, hey, Martha and I talked two months, six months, twelve months ago.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Can you follow up with her?
9:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't have time to re-engage this conversation.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: And I was looking at one of my beautiful, lovely clients, Charlotte's Conversation, some of her others, and we've sent like six follow-ups, right?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's not even we're not even into the busy season.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think of like attention span, and I have, I can't wait to go listen to your podcast too, by the way.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: But I have like a piece of content on this about ghosting, and I want to do a whole series on this in October on like being ghosted.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't really fucking believe in this shit.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: In terms of attention span, I believe you either have someone's attention or you don't.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: I do think it does get close to that black and white.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: I'll do like, you know, two or three follow-ups at the most.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: We have somebody right now who has a large contract out, and I will do two follow-ups, and after that, it's on her.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, we already did our work.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: It's on them.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: But I say that because of attention span where like when we really want to work with somebody, when we really want to sell this offer, we want to get lots of people into the course, we can do lots and lots of follow-up and lots of work.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And I've fallen into this trap really before this year, where I think if I follow up more, if I work harder to get their attention, really they just can't or aren't, or you know, can't or aren't giving it to you right now, and you're giving more to those people maybe than is needed.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: So, big question for Danielle.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: If I want to sell my offer for, you know, Black Friday and before, how what is your like baseline for a launch timeline?
10:54
SPEAKER_00: If I want to sell something for what price, how long does it take?
11:00
SPEAKER_01: See now that's a question that's gonna hit I'm gonna hit you with a it depends question because that's like the way that you you have a program that's$97 versus like$5k is just so different of like the way it's being sold and the and the sales cycle of it.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And so the thing I wanted to come back to about the Black Friday part and why I I definitely agree with like the way that you talk about the attention being limited.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: It's why I really believe in conversion rate optimization, especially for like your pages and funnels, because what I do is help you find a better way to present and communicate your offer.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: So it goes from a nice to have to need to have, because that's the issue, is that people have these products that are good in theory.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I I've personally had a lot of offers that I'm like, this is like such an amazing offer, why don't you buy it?
11:44
SPEAKER_01: And then realize, oh, people didn't they want the idea of it, but they don't really want it on that urgency scale or that scale of problem solving.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's something that I think is really important for the context of the timeline because sometimes too, it depends on are you coming to me with a new offer, like brand new offer?
12:02
SPEAKER_01: That's even harder because now we have nothing to look at beforehand.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: And so most of my clients come to me where they've already done a launch or two, and I do have a a course that's about like the for lead magnets, how to select it based on your starting with your uh offer price point and then the type of audience you have.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Are they burned before?
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Have they tried solutions before you it didn't work, or is it your first time?
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Like those are kind of the questions that I have to go through to help decide someone's timeline on top of just like if they don't have a lead magnet or whatever it is.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I find that it really depends on the assets they have, the the background they have on their product and program, like has it been really tested before, and how much of their funnel they already have that's kind of working because I think a lot of times too, what from what I've noticed is even though I'm very data focused uh and a number focused to some degree, a lot of my clients aren't.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I find that I'll ask them, like, yeah, what was your last launches, you know, XYZ thing?
13:05
SPEAKER_01: And they say, Oh, I don't really remember or I don't know.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, that's kind of the first problem because then we don't have a good baseline to set then for for that.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me there's a lot of different factors.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I think bare minimum, most people say it depends on if you're coming to me for a brand new funnel, that's a whole different conversation.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: But if you're going from I have a regular established program, I would say six weeks to two months would probably be my ideal amount if we're going from like we need to figure out what you need to say better, how to say it better in your emails, in your sales pages, and that kind of stuff.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: It just takes more time and it's not a bad thing, but a lot of people don't prepare for it.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: They're just like, oh, just redo everything and then like that'll be good.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And I had actually a really great example of this because I had a client of mine who came to me last year for helping with her evergreen funnel to help with.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: She was doing a lot of like JV partnerships and webinars, and she we I gave her like a report go going over like each asset, what she needs to change and why.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: And within the like 10 days of changing it, she had a 30% ROI and like broke her 10-month sales plateau, which is awesome.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, but what's interesting is like a couple months later, where normally I tell people for optimization work, it's not gonna be a this works forever because nothing ever does.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Like, usually within six months, sometimes a year, if you're lucky, you have to relook at the data and like tweak things.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: And so she, I think during that time had decided to try and use all the numbers she has and analytics she has, feed it to AI, like I think Claude or ChatGPT, and have it rewrite some of the emails and stuff for her and see how it did.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: It didn't do well.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: So I I say that.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so I say that because I think too often we sometimes look at launches as either we overhaul everything because we don't really know what's working, and so that makes it even harder, or we are like like what I hear from you, especially in your clients, is there more intentional about it and like let's choose one or two variables for us to go with?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: That can shorten the timeline of a launch compared to people who are all of their assets are underperforming, you know.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm uh you've given me so many ideas, so thank you so much for that.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: And I love that you're weaving in the client stories and what they were or case studies before we even get there.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: It's perfect for giving me such an easy segue.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I want to talk about a couple of different things.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna ask you in just a minute about prep.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: So let's say that I want to prep for my launch.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: What numbers do I need to know?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: I want people to like know how to go look for that information.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna talk about like case studies information as well.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, where can we pull that and how does it like get incorporated into our launch?
15:51
SPEAKER_00: But first, on like timeline two, so number one thing, like I'll say that's been working really well.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons we're redoing our offer is because our bread and butter of our top performing clients for sales have become integrating their email and Instagram sales together, meaning we add an Instagram form field into the email, we can contact people in both places.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: So we have their Instagram form field in their email, we're adding them to a lead tracker, they have a sales event, a live sales event, and then we're closing in the DMs.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: From the sales event, what has like we have so much data on this, you would love it.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Emily can like Emily Williams, my client, can recite it for you for real.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: But like we made content on the launch, or sorry, we made content and after the sales event on like this formula I have of the sales content recipe, and that moved people so fast and also made them feel so like supported, cared for, and yeah, just like personalized.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So, one thing I was gonna say too before we go into numbers, if you guys are doing a live sales event as part of your launch, I absolutely recommend pulling the transcript of the people, first of all, have a QA at the end, like be able to answer questions.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Then I pull the transcript of what people asked and who asked it, we turn that into content, into carousels, into a podcast, into emails, into Instagram stories, into threads.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: We're literally answering for the people that are most interested, what exactly were they interested in, and what are their last questions before they buy?
17:31
SPEAKER_00: That works really well.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: Most people don't do it.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Oh, I heard a few people ask about this part.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Let me go try to remember.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: No, just pull the data that you already have, it makes it so much easier.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna think of that for a second if I can, because I think this is really important.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: So what you just talked about for like pulling the QA from people who are most interested, is so true.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: And yet, a lot of my clients who come to me who even have big audiences, sometimes they can have quiet, interested audiences.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I've seen it before we'll have QAs and people don't respond to stuff, and so that's where that's really one of the main reasons why I had to integrate doing heat maps and looking at actual behavior versus words, because they weren't giving as many like actual things beyond like, is there a payment plan?
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, of course there is, like, you know, stuff like that.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm saying that for anybody listening to this, where in case you have a quieter audience, there are still ways for you to do exactly what Lisa's saying if your people aren't giving like the kind of like the juiciness that you would hope for, just because they maybe aren't as you know talkative.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I love that.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: I cannot speak to that nearly as well as you can.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for for bringing that up.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: And okay, to go back for a minute to to math.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: So, one of the issues that we deal with that people might be dealing with right now, listening to this as well.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: I want to launch, I have a great idea.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: I've launched it before, maybe.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: I love I love dealing with people who have been selling their offer and it's a proven offer, and the launch dial is working, but maybe you have a new launch, maybe you're relaunching something again.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: But we know from Danielle that let's just say as a baseline that it might be six to eight weeks that you want to actually like have that launch going.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: The other issue I run into is for us people telling me, okay, I'm launching it in two weeks and I have no leads.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, mmm, interesting.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: How did you think that the how are you planning for this to turn out?
19:28
SPEAKER_00: So if we go back to math and leads being a part of the equation, I guess I'll ask you one at a time.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: When people come to you, do they have leads?
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Like in the nice way, unless you're, you know, I don't really do ads too much anymore for for clients.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'll do it, but in that case, that's when I'm helping you actually do the leads.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: But for most of the time, I I usually have to ask them about not just how many people they have on their email list or followers, but also the engagement rate of those, because that also helps me indicate like you can have, and I've had clients who've had the hundred thousand followers on Instagram, but their engagement rate is trash.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: And so that means like you don't really have quality leads because it you just have a quantity of people.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's where it depends on what people are perceiving their actual leads are and the yeah, the quality of them.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is this is like the origin story um of how like Emily and I started working together, who also seems like potentially a perfect ideal client for you.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: But Emily came to me and she's like, Yeah, so I'm getting like 45 plus freebie signups.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: Her freebie is awesome, it's a diagnostic, it has super personalized results, it's nuts.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: But she has this freebie and she was like, I'm getting like 40, 45 plus signups, like in the last, I think it was like 30 days or so, like in the last month, but I don't know how to like reach these people.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm emailing them, but I want to speed it up.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: How can I actually make the most of this?
20:56
SPEAKER_00: How do I get in touch with them?
20:58
SPEAKER_00: So I had her add her form field to her Instagram so that we could then like contact them together.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: But I love that like I'm asking the leads question and you're talking about like email subscribers and followers, especially quality ones that are actually engaged.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: I think like if I had to generalize of the hundreds of people I've helped in 11 years, most people think a lead is when Danielle hears me and her DMs say, Hey Danielle, I want to pay you.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a whole before process to that.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: There's like a whole buyer's journey that happens before I tell Danielle, hey, I'd like to pay you.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me about this offer?
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me your start dates?
21:36
SPEAKER_00: I have questions, etc.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: So I love that you start there.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: I was on this panel talking about this this morning to a whole bunch of people griping about how we have to do fucking Instagram content.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: No one ever fucking told you you had to do this.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Ever.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: You were not being like, your ass is not being like pushed into a fire saying you have to do Instagram, nor email, nor blog.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Or podcast.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Like you get to choose.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: We made businesses so we would have agency to make our own choices.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: You get to choose where you want to be and how those leads come in.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: But I do think people need to broaden their definition of what a lead is.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: A lead is we tell our clients, like every conversation is a potential lead until we disqualify it.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: We can tell some of what we can tell on the surface.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Then we probably have to have a conversation, watch the data, the engagement, the silent moves, the behavior, the words they say, and then qualify people.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So I love that like that's where the definition is starting for you.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And then for numbers.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: So let's say I want to do a launch for my group program for my course.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Let's say I want to launch this in October and I have launched it before.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: What are three or so metrics you tell people to look at to be able to start predicting how well this launch will go?
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And let's pretend that they've done it before, ideally too, but you can speak to both, of course.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: This is an interesting one for me because I find that obviously people are used to hearing things like looking at your actual conversion rate or your like open click-through rate.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: But I often prioritize, yes, still do that, but I often prioritize more of the qu the the qualitative metrics.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: And so going back to like here, we talk about like heat maps and page recordings a lot, just because to me they really are the unspoken indicators that can help us understand the objections that are happening and stuff like that by even just seeing where they're staying on the sales page, where they're moving.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: And so for metrics, I think about the first thing is so this is me gonna get a little bit nerdy for a second.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, first thing in like Microsoft Clarity or Hotjar, you guys can install that today.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: It's a code, most of them are free options.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the reason why I'm saying that is the metric that I think matters the most is in this case, if you're not gonna look at the page recordings, just actual physical number, is the average page session.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: So an average page session might be like, are they on your page for like 15 seconds, a minute, two minutes, three minutes?
24:09
SPEAKER_01: And seeing the average of that allows you to understand, number one, how how interested your people are, to how much they're having to stay on it to consume, to understand like what is really uh kind of sticking for them if they're just scanners, great.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: You know how to then make better content if they're scanners.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: If it's a long they're on there for minutes, okay, there's either something that's like kind of stuck for them, or they're just people who are the buyer types that read every single thing and like really marinate.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: And so you can again use all of this to your own benefit.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: And so I find that that's an easy metric to look at.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, for anyone who doesn't already have this setup, yes, this is like maybe a future launch you.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do think that it is something.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: If I were to give you a starting place beyond just traditional conversion rate and click-through rate type of numbers, that is something I would really use.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I agree.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm neglecting that one.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: But to be fair, we all do that's kind of why I'm here.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: The final piece I want to mention about the heat map side and in regards to FAQs, it's why I talk about the quiet audience because inside of the page recordings that you can see people scroll, my favorite thing to do is look at which are the first two FAQ like accordions they open first because that helps me realize what's a priority in my content that I need to speak better to.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And so, again, going back to if your audience is talkative and is able to verbalize that, amazing.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: A lot of them aren't, um, from what I've seen at least.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: And so you can use the similar tools to have a similar effect to what Ellis is talking about if you feel like your people aren't gonna be able to speak and articulate themselves as well.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally, I totally agree.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: And okay, let's take it over to case studies too.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh, my like top pieces of my sales content recipe, that's one of them.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: It's usually offer so people know what they can buy, how you can help them.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: We make a carousel and all kinds of content on that.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: Then we also do case studies, or as I call client stories, so kind of similar with a little like expanded storytelling in it, and then also FAQs.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, hands down, sometime like a few years ago, like 93 women put up like ways to work with me, and we caught wind of that.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: So we do that.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: Now, case studies, people think I'll post that testimonial that Cassie said.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: I'll post my little screenshot, be done with it.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Also, not a case study, and then FAQs are probably the most skipped, period.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: People just don't put them up there, and we have to remember that, like, you're an expert in your field and your audience is a few steps below at least.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: That's why they're gonna pay you.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: We need to break it down and keep breaking it down when we know what people are gonna ask.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: So, case studies, which is what I originally asked Danielle to talk about, and we've talked about so many great things on conversion.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: How do we use, how do we build and use case studies in our sales pages, our content?
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, what are your top recommendations?
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what I'll say is because I know there's no chance gonna be able to go as deep as I'd like to be in this time, and so I do have a bunch of episodes.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, in case in case they want something immediately, I I do have a podcast episode and a YouTube video about actually ranking the best type of testimonials and why in terms of conversions, and so that can be really helpful in case you're trying to still figure it out for yourself, and so I can give that to Alyssa too, because I feel like I need to do a better job of also talking about which episodes to get.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: But I speak about that because it is something that case studies are a beautiful but also sometimes time-consuming effort to do, and I think too often, like you said, I think at the start of this, or potentially off-camera, too often we think about case studies as only being able to be used if we have a number attached to like a number outcome.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: And so we often use like, oh, well, I have like I have I've had clients in a variety of different industries, one of them being like they were a spiritual like systems person, and then another person who was a uh Pinterest manager who could show like some of the reach but not as much conversions, or people who had like you had some numbers, or like I had someone who was a um a nail tech, like things that you don't really can't find the best language for.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: Some are more visual, some are not, and that was something that I found is sometimes a challenge for people who think that case studies are only reserved for being able to showcase like that you've got this amount of sales in this way, and if not, you can't do case studies because you need a number.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: And the thing about numbers is like there are so many different ways to quantify if you need to quantify a number.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: For example, going back to one of my clients who was a spiritual like systems person, so she helps with a variety of things from both like mindset to systems to like all the pieces that can kind of come up for people who are trying to scale out like an intuitive business.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And she would tell me, she's like, you know, I get a lot of quotes from people who say this was giving me so much clarity and giving me so much time back and so forth, but not really knowing how to better like showcase how the effect of this is because the issue is like those screenshots that that Alyssa just talked about, like, yes, it's nice to hear a quote, but a quote's not gonna give the weight and credibility that your program needs, especially if you're again over really for any offer, but especially if you're 1k or above program.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Like you need to have some type of like heavier hitting content that does show more of a transformation.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: And so the way I've always seen case studies and testimonials in general in general, but especially case studies, is thinking of it going back to a hero's journey, like the very traditional like storytelling method of kind of that beginning, middle, end of like where they were struggling during like once they actually joined with you, what came up and then the after.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: But I take a similar approach to making sure each of those elements are specific.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: And I think oftentimes with case studies, we ask really generic questions.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: We're like, what got you to me?
30:12
SPEAKER_01: What worked for you?
30:14
SPEAKER_01: What was your result?
30:15
SPEAKER_01: And then your people are gonna be able to respond in the way that the question is giving them, which is not great.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: And so I go into deeper about this, but that's kind of how I envision and how I think about starting the case study process.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: You and I think about this so so similarly.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: I would say with the testimonials, it's like when you give me this information, I was just looking at my client's testimonials in this beautiful deck that she gave me, and she did a really good job, and it's like that's like 30 plus pages.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: And she's a creative, she's a web designer, and she made killer case studies, and I don't think they mention like money or sales in there at all, and she still crushed it.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: It was a really good example.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: But when I see testimonials, they're like, you're so right.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: If you don't give people like a guiding specific question, you know, people could be like, What did you think of interviewing Danielle?
31:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'll be like, Oh, it was so awesome, she's so smart.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: We talked about conversions and we talked about case studies.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay, when I see testimonials and it's just like a screenshot on Instagram, it's like, what offer did they buy?
31:24
SPEAKER_00: Why did they come to you?
31:25
SPEAKER_00: Why did they buy it then?
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Like you're leaving me with more questions and not answers, and I want the full story.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: And there are instances in marketing where it's good to tease, and we give a little bit of content, but also I think there should be like full case studies, like carousels, blogs, emails, however you want to put it.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: So I totally agree.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: And you and I literally use the same language around Hero's Journey.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: I was like, yep, yep, I call it um, I switched the language sometime this year, and now I call it a Disney arc and have people like pick their favorite Disney movie and then like move a client through it as that character.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I totally, I totally, totally agree.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: What do you think, like, what do you think is the best format to put these case studies?
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Do we put them on our websites, carousels, like where do you like to do it, and any final tips that you have too?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll let you tell people how they can find you as well.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think the first thing I'll say is like no matter what, having a better intake process is the best thing you could do before you even try and get to presenting it.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: And so going back to the questions, I thought about this off and on, and you're making me feel like I finally need to.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: I I was wanting to create a I have kind of like a template of sorts that I have a form that my clients send to their people so we can get better testimonies and case studies by asking better questions, including like situation-based questions, so we actually get them to recall a time that we can actually use better language for how to quantify things if you're not in a number-based type of um in a number-based type of niche.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And so you're making me think about I probably should try and like create a paid template or free template of just these to how to basically ask better questions to get you a better testimonial.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, because at the end of the day, the goal is I think if you can get them on a call, you can probably get better information from them if you know the questions too.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people either can't get people on the call because maybe their customers are just busy or they feel weird about it because XYZ thing.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times I'll end up having to have my clients send a form instead of doing um a call to record and pull from.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: And so we need to have the questions be are the questions on the form are critical then if we can't ask follow-ups, if we can't like ask these pieces.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: And so I have it fleshed out to kind of hit each one of those uh pieces for the hero's journey so that we can create a better testimonial case city overall because of that.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: So, number one, make sure you're having better questions, get you better answers.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Number two, once you actually have those answers, how to then apply onto your pages and content.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: And so this is where it really depends on the type of program you have and going back to the buyer type, because there are people who, if you have a program that is again like 3K, 5K over as much context as you can give is probably gonna be your ideal thing because people here are really gonna be trying to gather as much information as they can from you, unless you have someone like Eliza who's doing like a lot of the pre like pre-qualification setup for you, where maybe you can like be a little bit less good about it.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times, whenever I'm working with people who are doing like one or three K or 5K, and they're really trying to use their sales page and emails to do a majority of the selling, then you have to make sure that all your materials are really giving them the points they need to, the language of especially the get before questions, the language that they actually can see themselves in and being able to understand how to then showcase that better and both on the sales page and also in the emails themselves.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: And so the way that I think about this is number one, from those questions, what is the language that you can pull from that you've heard like be reiterated in your DMs, in your calls, in your emails, that should be your priority to use first.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: Like let's say you have maybe like 10 questions or 10 testimonial answers, start with those ones first.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Even if they have like not as great of not as great, but like not as great of results.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: I think having something like that to start you in the the starting place I always talk about with testimonials is that your people don't resonate and believe in the after yet.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: They're in the before.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: And so if you can actually showcase better the before and the way that your people talk about it first, they'll be then more bought in and believe in the after that than the person talking about and your program.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: And so that is something that I will stand on because I think too often we get so focused on the after, realizing that just because you have a big result does not mean people believe it.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: They actually would prefer and understand better the before.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: I I totally agree.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: You're giving me so many more notes.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: I need to like, we need to do another episode because we can keep going and going.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's like content for so, so long is why we make case studies like across the process and show the before and not just the after is so important.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: I sent a client one that I made that was like a middle of the road case study where I had clients right now, and I'm sharing where they came from, where they are now.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Then when they're, you know, complete this term, I'll show where they are then.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: And she was like, Well, they're not done yet.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's exactly the point.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: I want you to know where they started, how quickly they make progress, how we do it, and how that ramps up.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: When they finish this term, I'll give like a full report, but I want you to see the middle ground of before during, not just afters.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: I love that you said that.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: That's such a good hill for me.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, I could definitely talk about the during part as well, because I'm like, y'all also forget the during so much.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: You're like all the things that I have to do over the next month, you have reminded me.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh making my for takeaways for me, you guys, making my onboard onboarding form have situations, not just specific questions, but like situational, sending our midterm client feedback forms, updating my website, and putting the heat map on it.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: So, Danielle, you've helped me so much.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: But I know that our wonderful Danielle has to go.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: So, how can people come find you?
37:26
SPEAKER_00: And anything you want to share that you want us to link, we shall link also.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'd say definitely my website, DanielleClem.com, is probably the best things.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: I think that I'm always in and out of socials.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: And so you can definitely check me out on Instagram and threads.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: But I right now I have a couple of clients who are taking up my time because they're making a hundred million a year and they decide that all the hours are needed, and so it just happens, you know.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: So I always say, like, do go on to, I think I have a quiz, the Freebe to Buyer quiz.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: It's free.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Join that.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: My email list is probably where I'm at the most frequently, and that you can get any updates from if I end up doing the template that I'm talking about here and also other offerings.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Website and email is always the best place.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to start this, the course I have is opt in that pays off course around lead magnet selection based on what we kind of talked about at the starting place.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: So, like knowing your program, knowing who your audience are, and then finding the better selection for that to help become a sales priming tool instead of just an email subscriber list.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's awesome.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to link it all when I'm going to subscribe too.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: I will follow up and get all of those things for you.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being on here.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm serious.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: I think we need to do another episode in a little while on case studies, and thank you for letting me pick your brain on conversion rates.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: I know the audience will be excited and they will come find you.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: So look out on your email list and DMs.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: They will come to you.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: I know.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: Sounds great.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you guys for listening, and thank you, Alyssa, for having me on and looking forward to hearing what you guys think and hopefully get some better case studies from it.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And and bare minimum, put code of hotjar and Microsoft Clarity like any heat map on your page today.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Now I will do it.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you guys.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: We will see you next time for the next DM sales gal.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: Bye guys.