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Do It, or Else..... · Get Curious, Not Furious

0:00
SPEAKER_00: You love your child more than anything, and some days they drive you crazy.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm Colette, a speech and language therapist, sense maker, and mum of three.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Get Curious, Not Furious.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Together let's make sense of your child and what's really happening in those moments that feel out of control.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Less reacting, more understanding.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to get curious instead of furious, keep listening.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to this week's episode where we talk about punishments, consequences, and threats.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Stop that right now or else.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Does that sound familiar?
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Why do we as parents resort to ways of threatening our children and punishing them in order to get them to do what we want them to do?
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Or stop doing something that's driving us absolutely crazy.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: I guess there's an age-old assumption and the origins of punishment.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: They really are grounded in behaviorism, an assumption that we should pay and suffer for our mistakes and our wrongdoings.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: They were meant as a deterrent, while if you punish somebody sufficiently, then maybe they'll stop doing that thing.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: It also assumes that we can create enough of an incentive or enough of a disincentive to get people, including our children, to do something or to stop doing something.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you've been listening to my podcast for a while, you'll know by now that I am a developmentalist.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And what this means is that I look at, or I my frame of reference for understanding children and helping you understand your child is that you will look beyond the behavior, you'll look beneath the surface and get curious about what's driving the behavior, what's really going on.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: There's no one simple straight answer for what's going on because every child is different, and all those situations that what might cause one child to knock down another child's tower or destroy something of theirs might be really different from why the reason one of your other children does that.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: So, curiosity, us as adults and parents getting curious about why our children do the things they do and why we as adults respond the way we do, that's the key to building this understanding and shifting away from a behavioral approach where you rely on punishments, threats, and consequences to control your child.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: So, what is a punishment?
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, anything that's harsh, anything where we remove something from our child.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Threats, well, the difference between the threat and the punishment is really the threat is I'm going to do this if you don't, and then the punishment is where you carry through on that.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: From a relational perspective, they're both equally harmful in terms of the damage that they cause to the relationship, and they also get in the way of our children actually being able to mature and inherently develop those skills to be kind, caring, pro-social beings where they don't want to actually break their siblings' creation, even though they're really mad and really frustrated.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Some of you might be thinking, well, what about consequences?
3:02
SPEAKER_00: What about natural consequences?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: So your child doesn't turn their device off when you've asked them to do, and therefore the consequence is they don't get it the next time.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's not actually a natural consequence.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: That's an imposed consequence, which is really just a punishment in disguise.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: What might be some other natural consequences?
3:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, they snatch something off their sibling and it breaks.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that is a natural consequence.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Will they learn from that?
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: What they'll probably feel is really sad, upset, and frustrated that the toy got broken because maybe their sibling had taken their toy and they were really annoyed and mad about it, and the only thing they could do was grab it back.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: When it gets broken in a situation like that, I view that really as an unfortunate accident.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: That was not what either of the two children that were sparring over a toy were thinking was going to happen.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: In that moment, all they were thinking about was, I want the toy.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: No, I want the toy, I want to get it back.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: If we sort of follow the line of thinking that, well, neither of them have the toy, so that'll teach them the lesson that they shouldn't fight and scrap over a toy.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: My response to that is if that works, fantastic, amazing.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: That would mean that your children are very well developed in their emotional maturation and their understanding of if I pull something from somebody else and it gets broken, then I'm going to, you know, not have it.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: That's quite a mature level of planning and thinking.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And when our children are heightened, escalated in a moment of fixation on a particular toy, feeling hard done by, that is the last thing that they are thinking.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Remember, that's part of their prefrontal cortex, their online thinking brain.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's not very available to our young children very often, and particularly in those moments of scrapping or sparring over things or over people.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Are you wondering, are imposed consequences ever okay?
4:55
SPEAKER_00: So, what might an imposed consequence look like?
4:58
SPEAKER_00: For example, removing a child from a place situation where they're hurting others repeatedly.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: In this situation, I would say safety has to come first.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: The child who's getting hurt needs to know that the adults will protect him.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: The child doing the hurting needs to know that that's not okay and that you as the adult can step in and take the lead and keep everyone safe.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: It's actually not a consequence if you're removing a child from one of those play situations, if you're doing it in the way that you're taking the lead.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: You're not giving them the message, if you don't stop that, then you can't stay and play here because that is threatening.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's also not going to help them learn what exactly you do want them to do in that situation.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: And it's also not addressing, well, why is it in that moment are they constantly hurting others in that play situation?
5:45
SPEAKER_00: What is the root cause?
5:47
SPEAKER_00: What's driving the behavior?
5:49
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, absolutely, we as adults need to step in and take the lead in keeping our children safe, in recognizing where they're at developmentally, and also having realistic expectations about what we can expect of them.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Be very careful though, that a imposed consequence that it's be very mindful that you're not actually punishing, right?
6:10
SPEAKER_00: Because our children can perceive these consequences as punishments.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: So natural consequences, just you know, be mindful of those and again think about what is the messaging that you're giving your child.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: If they throw things and they break, then that is a natural consequence.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: We want them to learn not to break those things, but not by punishing them, by coming alongside and teaching them and helping them learn.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: A threat of a punishment, like I've said earlier, you know, are they effective?
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, you some of you will probably find that they are.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Some of you will probably find that I'm going to stop you having device time if you don't do your homework right now.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: And your child goes, Oh, cracky, I really want that device time, so I better get my homework done.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: So I'm absolutely can hear some of you thinking and saying, threats of punishments work.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: They get my child to do what I want them to do.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Why on earth wouldn't I keep using them?
7:04
SPEAKER_00: My response to that is if you only ever had to use them once in your life with your child, and then all of a sudden they were completely compliant 100% of the time, then yeah, maybe you could say, well, they work.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Chances are that's not actually what's happened.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: And I would also wonder, well, if you had a child who was that compliant that they never pushed back, that they never tested boundaries, that they never sought to see where the boundary is between them as an individual and adults as their, you know, a separate person from them setting boundaries for them, then I'd kind of go, well, there's something not quite right here.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: This doesn't really make sense because that's not how development unfolds.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Children don't come into this world to be compliant minions that do our bidding as their parents.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: And neither would we really want that for them.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: We want them to grow up to be kind, caring, autonomous, thoughtful, pro-social human beings.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: You might have other goals and aspirations for your children, but my guess is that one of the things that you want most for them is to be kind, caring, and considerate and get along with others, to not go around hitting others, to not going around being defiant all the time.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: But some of these things that our children do are a natural part of their development.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And how we respond to them as adults, that's what determines whether they become an entrenched pattern or something that's part of maturation that then they kind of, you know, for want of a better word, a phase that they go through and then they grow out of.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: When we resort to using threats and consequences and punishments, and we find that they're working, but what if you find that you the stakes keep get h getting higher and higher?
8:49
SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by this is pause and think about have you ever, you know, had to threaten a consequence for your child and then that no longer works, and then the stakes get higher.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: The consequence that you impose on them or that you threaten gets harsher and harsher and harsher, and then ultimately it stops working altogether.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: If you're saying, well, when I punish my child, it stops their behavior, therefore it works, therefore I'll keep doing it.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: I would challenge you and say, Well, that's parenting grounded in fear.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: You're getting your child to comply because they're afraid of you or they're afraid of losing something that they really care about, not because they've inherently developed the maturity to go, yeah, actually, I probably shouldn't keep hitting my sibling because it's not nice to hit others.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: And I care about my sibling, and even though I'm really mad with them, it's still not the right thing to do.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: And I know my eldest who is almost 14, but when he was sort of eight, nine, ten, he had the maturation to go, I am so mad with my brother.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: I really want to punch him right now, but I know it's not the right thing to do.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: And he had incredible, you know, in some ways was it self-control?
9:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, but it was impulse control, and he had the maturity to go, you know, I really don't want to punch him, even though he's really annoying me.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Punching him isn't going to solve this problem and isn't the right answer.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: Where had he learnt that?
10:13
SPEAKER_00: From me stepping in, coming alongside, getting between them when they were hurting each other and going, I'm not going to let you guys hurt each other.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm here to keep everybody safe.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm not willing to let you hit your brother.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: And I would separate them.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And I had to do lots and lots of this scaffolding.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, it went on for a couple of years where there was a lot of physicality between them.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: And never once did I say to, you know, the one who was on the receiving end of the puncher, the hit from the other one, oh, well, you should punch them right back, and that will sort them out, because I'm not a violent person.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And to me, telling a child to hit another child to retaliate just goes, I guess, goes against all my all my values as a both as a parent and and as a human.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: And I do know that there are people out there and parents out there who believe you deserved it.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: You punched your brother, so he's every right to punch you back, and eventually you'll learn when you get punched by somebody bigger than you that you shouldn't go around punching people.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, you might learn, but at what cost?
11:18
SPEAKER_00: The cost that you should be afraid of other people.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: There is no doubt about it, but using threats and punishments to coerce our children into doing our will, doing what we want them to do, has an absolute cost on the relationship.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: I've been parenting now for almost 14 years.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: I've been working with children for many, many more years than that, working alongside families.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: And I will admit, when I first started working as a speech and language therapist, I thought that that's how you got children to do what you wanted them to do.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: So in my therapy sessions, I would set it up that there was, you know, a reward, a fun activity to do if they did all the other activities first.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I think I even, you know, suggested to parents to ignore the child's bad behavior.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And now I go, oh my goodness, I just didn't know.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know any better back then.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: That had been my training.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, and there was certainly nothing about developmental science going back in the you know early 90s when I studied, or certainly if there was, it hadn't made it to where I was in my training.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I this is a thing I feel very strongly and passionately about.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: And because of that journey of having been brought up in a punitive um home where you know we really were, it was fear-based, it was uh, you know, do this or do this or else.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: That never sat well with me.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And then particularly when I became a parent and I realized actually, I really there's something not right about this.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: This doesn't feel like a relational way to support my children to grow and to mature.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: It has certainly been challenging, it has certainly not been easy at times because the desire in some moments to just get the behavior to stop and to go, well, actually, if I just threaten right now or if I impose a punishment that's gonna be sufficiently incentivizing, then they'll probably stop doing what I want them to do.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And you all know it'll be probably device time if you've got older children, or it'll be a threat of not going out with their friends, or whatever it is, you know, I'll remove your phone from you if you break the rules.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it's not okay to have rules and social contracts around what's okay and what's not okay.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, our children need to know what's okay.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: But if the only tool we have in our toolbox is resorting to threats and punishments and consequences, then that is going to affect the relationship and you'll get to a point where it actually stops working.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: It can get to the point where your child will put their defenses up so much that they'll turn around and tell you, I don't care.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: You can take my device, you can take my phone, I don't care about going out to hang out with my friends, I don't care about you, screw you, I don't care what punishment or threat you send my way.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: If you've gotten to that point, then I'd say you're things are really in trouble.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of work for you to do to restore your relationship with your child.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Sure, you might ask, well, why should you do that if they're the one that's being rude, defiant, telling you they don't care?
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, because you're the adult and the responsibility for restoring the relationship lies with you.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: You're the one that needs to take the lead.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: You're the one that needs to be the bigger person going, okay, there's something going on for my child here.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: What's going on for my child?
14:30
SPEAKER_00: How can I get curious instead of getting furious with them?
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know it's maddening.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: Trust me, I know that so much.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: You get so mad that you just want them to stop.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And so you think, well, quick punishment, quick threat of a consequence, boom, there goes the behavior I was trying to eliminate.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: But what happens when it comes back the next day and the next day and the next day, and you're issuing the same punishment thinking that you'll get a change?
14:58
SPEAKER_00: You probably won't.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you have a child who you punish them or you threaten a punishment and they instantly comply, and then you don't see that behavior ever again, well then you might go, okay, well, it works.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: Very, very occasionally, yes, does it work with some children?
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say I have seen it again in inverted commas working, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been a cost to it.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that you haven't taught your child that they can either use those punishments to manipulate other people in relationships, or that they should be afraid of you because they might lose something that they care about.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: There is a huge cost to relationships, and one of the ones that's most costly are any of those punishments that involve separation.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: And this is what I mean by timeout, putting your child outside the door, sending your child to their room.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: All of those punishments are really strong relational punishment because they sever the attachment.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: They're giving your child the message that their behavior is more important than their relationship with you.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: The other problem you'll get with always resorting to threats and punishments and consequences is that you might get compliance, but you won't get the maturation.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: So, as I say, you might have a child who you threaten them once or you impose a consequence once.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: It works, and you go, Oh, great! What's Colette talking about?
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Of course, punishments and threats work, but you won't get the maturation.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: What do I mean by maturation?
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Your child, when they're developmentally ready, spontaneously being able to put the brakes on, or not hurting others, or turning their device off when you ask them to do, or whatever it is.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: There's a million things on a you know day-to-day basis that as parents we want our children to do.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, what I want is my children to want to do those things so that I don't have to go to battle with them, so that I don't have to threaten, punish, impose consequences.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: I do have to take the lead in setting boundaries.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to risk the opportunity for them to mature by insisting on compliance all the time.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean I let them get away with things, doesn't mean that I'm permissive.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: If my child tells me, I don't care, I can do whatever I want, or you can take my device away, as I said, they've really put their defenses off, and then I really am in trouble.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Then I really have a lot of work to do.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you honestly, I there have been times where this has happened with one of my children, where I get the I don't care response, and it's really tricky.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: And then I have to go, okay, well, have I maybe been using some consequences, even though maybe I was phrased framing them as natural consequences.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Have I actually been using some of those strategies?
17:39
SPEAKER_00: And is that what stirred up this defensiveness and this I don't care?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: And when I can get curious about it and kind of unwind it, then you know, usually I'll find that there are some other things going on, but that maybe I've kind of resorted, fallen back to those old habits and ways of trying to manage things that way.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen so much anymore, but I'll be honest, uh, there are days where I'm out of capacity or things aren't going as smoothly as I'd want them to go, and I'm feeling under time pressure, and I just need something done, and out of my mouth will come a consequence.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: Now, what do I do when I've done that?
18:17
SPEAKER_00: And then I realize, yikes, now I'm really stuck because either my child comes back at me with a consequence, which is like, well, if you don't let me do this, then I'm not going to go to school, or whatever it is.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm really stuck because neither of us are getting, you know, my child's not getting the support they need, and I'm not getting the outcome I want, which is timely departure, out the door, it's time to go to school.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Those punishments, certainly, if you have a child who's full of, you know, counter will and that kind of oppositional type responses that I talked about last week, if you're using threats and punishments, they're going to backfire on you, they're going to dig their heels in, and you'll be left with nothing, nothing that they care about.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: And then if you get to that point, well, is that really what you want for your child?
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Then caring so little about anything that that nothing works.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: And that's why punishments and consequences and threats are so costly to relationships.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: We can't force children to behave, to be kind or caring or pro-social through punishing them.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: It happens naturally if the developmental conditions are right.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: We do want them to develop that spontaneous caring for others so that they act in pro-social ways, not because they're scared of losing something that they care about.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Whether that's you, because you send them to their room or outside the back door, or because it's their favorite toy or their favorite screen time or whatever it is.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: It also doesn't teach them any empathy.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't give them an opportunity to learn empathy.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I would say that when you impose a punishment on a child, their desire or even the sort of readiness to learn empathy has gone out the window because they're usually pretty pissed off when they've been punished and you don't learn empathy from that place.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: That's not how our brains work.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: Having impulse control and genuine remorse in terms of, oh my goodness, I really shouldn't have done that.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, do you want that to develop in response to a threat, or do you want it to develop because your child inherently matures and goes, Yeah, I really shouldn't have hurt my sibling.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: My eldest has from many times over the years when his younger brother does something that, you know, he really shouldn't be doing, that's not okay, that needs a boundary to be set.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Then my oldest boy will often say, Well, why don't you just punish him?
20:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, you need to punish him.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And I have to come alongside that and acknowledge why he's feeling that way, because he's fed up that his brother's done the same thing over and over again, and I still stand by the fact that, and I am explicit in teaching them this, I don't, I will, I'm not going to punish or threaten or impose consequences in that way.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: That's not how I believe children learn.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And I will set limits and I will set boundaries, and my job is to take the lead and keep everyone safe.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Now you might be wondering, how long does this take?
21:07
SPEAKER_00: Is it a quick fix taking a relational approach to managing those times where in the past you would have used a threat or a punishment?
21:15
SPEAKER_00: It does take time.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Will you see instant improvement?
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Probably not, possibly not, and it's worth playing the long game.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: It's worth playing the long game if you want your child to naturally develop that compassion for others, the desire to, you know, behave in pro-social ways, to be kind, caring, and considerate.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Those are inherent natural things that can develop spontaneously if the conditions are right, if we provide the scaffolding and the support and the necessary boundaries around that.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Not imposing threats and punishments does not mean being permissive.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: We can actually set boundaries and limits without threats and without punishments.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't done that, Before, then that will probably, you know, might seem like a bit of a crazy idea.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: You might go, like, how on earth can you do that?
22:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, it can be done because I do it every day.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I coach other parents how to do it every day.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: And I've learned from seeing some of my friends and other parents doing it that way, also.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: I will tell the truth, I have used punishments and the threat of punishments at times over the years.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: I have one vivid memory.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: Gosh, this is going back many, many years ago.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, what would it be?
22:29
SPEAKER_00: At least six or seven.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: And one of my children uh was we were going to the pool and he constantly was chewing on his goggles, and his goggles were getting destroyed as a result.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'd asked him, you know, to stop chewing his goggles, and we'd had this.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, gosh, when I even say this story out loud now, it seems so crazy why I didn't, you know, just give him something else to chew on and recognize that that's what he needed.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, I didn't know back then all that I know now.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Um and I was also really stressed because I had a young baby, I was sleep deprived, really didn't have access to lots of that sort of good thinking and understanding around, oh, why is he doing what he's doing?
23:07
SPEAKER_00: So I said on the drive down, if you don't stop chewing your goggles, you can't get in the pool.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: And guess what?
23:12
SPEAKER_00: He didn't stop chewing his goggles.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: And then I was left with having to manage three children who wanted to swim and one who really wanted to swim, but I had set the consequence well, if you don't stop chewing them, you can't.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: And in that moment I thought, I've got to follow through with this.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: If I don't follow through with this, he's never going to learn the lesson.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: So I did follow through with it, and I now cringe when I think of that situation.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: I cringe when I think of him sitting on the chair at the side of the pool, seeing how absolutely furious and mad that I was.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't really having fun with my other kids at the pool because I was so mad.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: He missed out, I missed out, and it really left bad feeling between both of us that needed a bit of time to sort of unpack and resolve.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Did it stop him chewing his goggles?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: No, it didn't.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: What was going on for me in that moment?
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I had nothing else in my toolbox at that time.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what else to do.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: I was not willing to have to pay for another set of goggles to be replaced, but there were so many other solutions that I could have come up with rather than punishing him by saying he couldn't go swimming.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Why do we use them?
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, we use them because we think they work, and in that moment we don't know any other way.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Maybe some of you want to feel powerful and in charge.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you just want the behavior to stop.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's infuriating when the same behavior keeps happening.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: And if you've been using threats and punishments and it's not working, that's even more annoying.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: What about device time consequences?
24:42
SPEAKER_00: What about, you know, if you don't come off your device now, then you won't get any device time tomorrow.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: You'll find that it's not sustainable and it's not going to work.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you're wondering, okay, so what are the alternatives to threats, punishments, and consequences?
24:58
SPEAKER_00: We still need to take the lead as adults.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: We do need to be in charge.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: We absolutely need to set boundaries.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: We can't let our children go around hitting and thumping each other and breaking each other's things.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: So we do need to minimize any harm, any harm that we might cause, or any harm that they might cause to themselves or to others or to property.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Protect the relationship at all costs.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Address the problem behavior later.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: What that means is when they've just, you know, broken something or said something they shouldn't have said or hurt their sibling, that's not the moment to try and teach them what to do, okay?
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Or not the time to unpack what's going on.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Even though, you know, how many times they say, Why did you hit your brother?
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, you I've told you so many times not to do it.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah, blah.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: You all know what I'm talking about.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: This will sound really familiar to you.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: You do need to make room for those feelings to come out.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: You need to make room for whatever stuckness and frustration is driving them to do what they did.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: You need to create room for play.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: Play is where you can allow them to take the lead and maybe playfully threaten and you know set some punishments for you.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: So you can do that that role reversal.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: And I've talked about that in earlier episodes too, how if we've had some of those highly charged parenting moments, we can actually play those out and create a safe space for our children to kind of work through what those feelings look like.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: So if you've been using lots of punishments and threats and consequences in your parenting, and now you're ready to try it a different way, then see if in play you can let your child like take the lead.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't mean that you let your child hurt you in any way, but you might do some if it's at their age and stage, um, and depending on their language skills, where they get to be the parent and you get to be the child and you get to be the defiant child who refuses to do what they're asking and they get to be the parent punishing you.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: The other thing is be realistic and expect your child to make mistakes.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: You can solicit their good intentions.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Can I count on you to turn the device off when I ask you to do?
27:03
SPEAKER_00: Can I count on you to be kind to your sibling?
27:06
SPEAKER_00: If you threaten a punishment, do you have to follow through?
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say no.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: If you're a behaviorist, then you would say yes, absolutely, that if you said to your child, if you don't do this, then you can't have that, and you don't follow through with that, they'll never learn.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, this is true, they won't ever learn, but because you, I'm encouraging you not to parent them through punishments anyway, that's not exactly what you want them learning.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: You want them to learn a collaborative way to solving problems and that adults can take the lead and guide them to do what they need them to do.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: The other problem though is if you constantly are threatening punishments and then you never follow through, well then yes, absolutely, your child will learn that you're all talk and no action.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: What I'd encourage you to do is don't get stuck just because a punishment or a threat has come out of your mouth.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Don't feel that you need to stick to that in order for them to learn a lesson.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Take a moment, pause, recenter yourself and go, okay, actually, I really don't want to go down that route of a threat or a punishment or a consequence.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have a do-over and I'm going to take the lead on that.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: That might mean that you go back to your child and you say, hmm, I was so frustrated, I said the wrong thing, that's not what I meant to say.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Here's how we're going to solve this problem.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: You're taking the lead.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: If somebody breaks something belonging to somebody else, do they need to pay to fix that?
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes, if they're at the age and stage where they can earn the money to repair something.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And if they can't, then well, how can they make it up to somebody else?
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Can they check in with that other person?
28:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean a forced apology, I don't mean making them to go and say sorry to somebody else.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: But hey, when you're ready, let's go check in with your sister.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: You broke your sister's shoe.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: How are you going to fix that?
28:48
SPEAKER_00: If your child says, I don't care, she deserved it, yeah, you've got a bit more work to do.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: You'll need to come back to it at a later time, but you'll need to spend some time working out what's driving their feelings of frustration in the first place.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: When our children lose their caring for others or for their siblings, then before we can expect them to care for others, we've got to get to the bottom of why they've lost their caring in the first place.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I can't promise you that this will be a quick fix, shifting away from punishing and threatening your child, but I can promise you that it will make a huge difference to your relationship if you do move away and focus more on a relational approach, problem solving, collaboration.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Get curious, figure out why you respond the way that you do, and do some deep thinking as to, you know, do you really want to parent from a place of fear?
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And is that what you want your child to take forward into their future relationships?
29:46
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear what's happening in your family.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: If you have a parenting question, challenge, or concern, send me a message.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Together we can make sense of what's going on.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: If you found this episode helpful, please like it, share it with another parent, and follow the podcast to help grow this community.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, stay curious.