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Myths vs. Reality: CIA and FBI Revealed by Their Deputy Directors · FBI Files

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: At CIA, we work around the clock and across the
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  Speaker 1: globe to help keep Americans and others around the world safe.
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  Speaker 1: Secrecy is often vital to our work.
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  Speaker 2: But we're committed to sharing what we can, when we can.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: So let us be your guides around the halls of
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  Speaker 2: Langley as we open our files and speak with those
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  Speaker 2: who have dedicated themselves to this mission.
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  Speaker 1: These are their stories.
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  Speaker 2: This is The Langley Files. You know the scene.
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  Speaker 1: In a tense and ominous atmosphere, U.S. officials are gathering
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  Speaker 1: for an emergency meeting about a national security crisis unfolding
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  Speaker 1: at that very moment.
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  Speaker 2: They meet in a darkened conference room lit only by
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  Speaker 2: the glow of the screens on the walls.
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  Speaker 1: Why does it always have to be a darkened conference room?
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  Speaker 2: Because it has to be.
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  Speaker 1: As officials continue to arrive, one is stopped at the door. Sir,
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  Speaker 1: an aide says, you need to know, the agency's here.
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  Speaker 1: They've been brought into this.
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  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, inside, at the conference table, another aide passes a
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  Speaker 2: note to another official. Ma'am, it reads, the Bureau's on
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  Speaker 2: the way in.
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  Speaker 1: The door opens. Steely stares meet as the FBI official
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  Speaker 1: immediately clocks their counterpart from the CIA. Eyes narrow, fists clench,
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  Speaker 1: a paper gets crumpled. It's all very intense.
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  Speaker 2: But wait. Is that really how things work in today's
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  Speaker 2: national security situations?
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  Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, it's not.
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  Speaker 2: But then how do CIA and FBI collaborate to keep
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  Speaker 2: Americans safe? And what exactly are the differences between their
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  Speaker 2: roles and responsibilities?
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  Speaker 1: Who does what and where?
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  Speaker 2: Well, today on The Langley Files, you're going to find out.
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  Speaker 2: Because at this very moment, CIA Deputy Director David Cohen.
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  Speaker 1: A returning fan favorite from our sixth episode.
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  Speaker 2: And FBI Deputy Director Paul Abate are getting settled in
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  Speaker 2: here in our own darkened conference room, aka Bill Langley
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  Speaker 2: Files recording studio.
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  Speaker 1: We repurposed a conference room.
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  Speaker 2: That's true.
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  Speaker 1: I think I caught a steely glare just now.
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  Speaker 2: Um, Walter, I think that was directed towards us.
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  Speaker 1: We'll talk to them about how CIA and FBI's missions
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  Speaker 1: differ and the different experiences of working at each. But
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  Speaker 1: we'll also hear about the vital teamwork between the two
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  Speaker 1: that keeps our country secure. Let's get started.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Dee.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm Walter.
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  Speaker 2: How cool is this to be sitting across from these
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  Speaker 2: two gentlemen right now?
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  Speaker 1: It's pretty incredible. One's a fan favorite, and one came
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  Speaker 1: all the way over the Potomac to meet with us
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  Speaker 1: here today.
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  Speaker 2: So Deputy Directors Cohen and Abate, thank you very much
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  Speaker 2: for joining us. And I think we're just going to
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  Speaker 2: kick it right off and get right into the first question.
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  Speaker 2: We're hoping you can share about yourselves and what drew
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  Speaker 2: you to public service and what drew you to national security.
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  Speaker 1: Paul, go ahead.
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  Speaker 3: You're the guest here at CAA.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, David.
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  Speaker 4: I'd have to reach back to my childhood in terms
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  Speaker 4: of what drew me specifically to the FBI. When I
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  Speaker 4: was growing up, my parents brought us to Washington, D.C.
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  Speaker 4: to visit as tourists, like many do. And we went
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  Speaker 4: and visited FBI headquarters. This is back in the 1970s.
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  Speaker 4: And we did a tour there. And I was just
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  Speaker 4: taken in early on by the experience there, particularly the
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  Speaker 4: The shooting, we have a firearms range, which existed then
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  Speaker 4: and still is in place at headquarters. And we still
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  Speaker 4: have a public tour, though it's much more controlled for
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  Speaker 4: security reasons than it was back then. I think back
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  Speaker 4: then you could just literally walk in off the street
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  Speaker 4: into the complex. But there's a firearms demonstration. It's conducted
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  Speaker 4: by a very formal and traditional looking FBI agent in
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  Speaker 4: a suit and a fedora with the Tommy gun. historic
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  Speaker 4: firearm that was used way back in the gangster days.
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  Speaker 4: And that really was one thing that got me very
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  Speaker 4: interested in the FBI, particularly. And then also just through
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  Speaker 4: films and television books back then, I remember having a
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  Speaker 4: lot of interest and being drawn to that as well
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  Speaker 4: in the law enforcement profession generally, and then toward the
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  Speaker 4: FBI more specifically. And then it's interesting because at that time,
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  Speaker 4: I entered the FBI as an agent in 1996, pre-9-11.
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  Speaker 4: And it was all law enforcement focused for the most
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  Speaker 4: part then. So when I came into the FBI, that's
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  Speaker 4: what I was engaged on, traditional criminal investigative work. And
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  Speaker 4: White Collar Crime initially was a squad that I was
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  Speaker 4: assigned to. And I didn't get into national security. work
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  Speaker 4: for a number of years after that?
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  Speaker 3: So for me, I mean, it also goes back to
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  Speaker 3: my childhood and with a couple of different strands. One
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  Speaker 3: is I was fortunate, grew up in a like solidly
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  Speaker 3: upper middle-class family in Lexington, Massachusetts. Both of my parents
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  Speaker 3: had grown up in sort of more humble circumstances, but
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  Speaker 3: had opportunities to get good educations, get good jobs, did
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  Speaker 3: reasonably well. And so I was the beneficiary of all
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  Speaker 3: that and sort of felt some obligation to give back.
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  Speaker 3: But as I mentioned, I also grew up in Lexington, Massachusetts,
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  Speaker 3: which is the birthplace of the American Revolution, where the
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  Speaker 3: shot heard around the world on April 19th, 1775, it
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  Speaker 3: was first fired. And I remember as a kid, every
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  Speaker 3: April 19th, they have a reenactment. I'd go down to
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  Speaker 3: the Lexington Green and put on my Tricon hat and
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  Speaker 3: watch the reenactment. And it sort of fed an interest
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  Speaker 3: in America and American government and in public service. And
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  Speaker 3: then I was also just sort of independently interested in
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  Speaker 3: national security issues as I got older, studied it in college.
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  Speaker 3: But I didn't really have a theory on how to
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  Speaker 3: sort of translate that into a career. I didn't have
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  Speaker 3: the imagination to like apply to the CIA at the time.
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  Speaker 3: So I became a lawyer and practiced law for 20
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  Speaker 3: years before I had the opportunity to go to the
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  Speaker 3: Treasury Department in the post 9-11 period. when Treasury had
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  Speaker 3: stood up a new unit there that was focused on
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  Speaker 3: the financial aspects of national security. And that's how I
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  Speaker 3: was sort of able to scratch the national security itch
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  Speaker 3: and the public service itch together. So I did that
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  Speaker 3: at Treasury for a while and then found my way here.
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  Speaker 1: We can't confirm or deny this, but we understand that
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  Speaker 1: your nickname there as well was Financial Batman for prowess
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  Speaker 1: at tracking and cutting off terrorist finances.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, everybody else there was quite good at that.
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  Speaker 3: I got to brag about it, and that's how I
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  Speaker 3: got the nickname.
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  Speaker 1: Well, sirs, maybe then you could each give us a
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  Speaker 1: brief snapshot of what a deputy director does at your
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  Speaker 1: respective organizations, at the FBI and at CIA. So maybe,
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  Speaker 1: Deputy Director Bate, if we could kick things off with you.
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  Speaker 4: The role of deputy director, I think, in both of
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  Speaker 4: our agencies, I would describe it as multifaceted and all-encompassing.
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  Speaker 4: It's an incredible commitment. And it's really a calling. At
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  Speaker 4: the highest level from an enterprise perspective, we're working with
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  Speaker 4: our teams and leadership to set the strategic direction for
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  Speaker 4: the agencies, both on the operational side and across the
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  Speaker 4: business components. And really, I think it's the same here,
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  Speaker 4: I would imagine, at the agency. I mean, we're running
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  Speaker 4: the daily operations for companies. the agency at scale, and
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  Speaker 4: it's a tremendous privilege to be in the role. As
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  Speaker 4: mentioned before, I joined the FBI in 1996. I'm a
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  Speaker 4: career agent in the organization, so have come through literally
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  Speaker 4: every role at every level to arrive at this. We
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  Speaker 4: approach the job with enormous rigor each and every day.
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  Speaker 4: We get together every morning with the senior leadership of
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  Speaker 4: the Bureau, again, the operational side and the business side,
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  Speaker 4: probably 40, 50 people in the room, we go around
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  Speaker 4: and we're briefed on and have discussion on and focus
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  Speaker 4: on the threats that are out there that we're working
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  Speaker 4: to disrupt and counter the resources that we're replying in
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  Speaker 4: that regard. And we really take time to, each and
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  Speaker 4: every day, think things through and make sure we're best positioned,
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  Speaker 4: importantly with partners as well, because the CIA is represented
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  Speaker 4: in the room, along with other U.S. government partner agencies,
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  Speaker 4: and that's really important because of the enormous collaboration that
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  Speaker 4: we do to execute the mission. And we're focused like
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  Speaker 4: that day in and day out. Morning, tonight, we close
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  Speaker 4: out in a smaller group setting at the end of
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  Speaker 4: the day, every day late, and we repeat that day in,
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  Speaker 4: day out to make sure that we're positioned best for
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  Speaker 4: our country and our citizens to keep people safe and
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  Speaker 4: defend the country.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I share very much the same perspective as
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  Speaker 3: you described it, really the privilege to be able to
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  Speaker 3: help run this organization as you have the privilege to
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  Speaker 3: run your organization.
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  Speaker 1: From the way I look at it, I mean, one.
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  Speaker 3: Thing that I do want to dispel about the deputy
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  Speaker 3: director role here is that I think if you are
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  Speaker 3: a keen observer of CIA movies, you will see that
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  Speaker 3: the deputy director is almost always the bad guy in
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  Speaker 3: these movies. And I think Rightfully so. Yeah, no, I
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  Speaker 3: was going to say, so I spend a lot trying
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  Speaker 3: not to be the bad guy. It's an important part
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  Speaker 3: of my job. But more seriously, it's very similar to
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  Speaker 3: what you described, Paul. I mean, I help the director
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  Speaker 3: run the agency, provide guidance, provide advice, get briefings on
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  Speaker 3: what we're doing, try as best I can to add
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  Speaker 3: value to what the folks all across this agency are
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  Speaker 3: engaged in every day. I have the opportunity to represent
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  Speaker 3: the agency in the national security process. There's a very
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  Speaker 3: steady drumbeat of meetings that the White House convenes that
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  Speaker 3: are designed to sort of address the policy issues of
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  Speaker 3: all of the national security and foreign policy challenges that
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  Speaker 3: the country's facing. And I am the representative to the
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  Speaker 3: deputies committee where a lot of these issues are hashed out.
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  Speaker 3: I get to engage with partners here in Washington. So
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  Speaker 3: obviously a lot of engagement with folks at the FBI
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  Speaker 3: and other law enforcement agencies, other others in the intelligence community,
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  Speaker 3: but also overseas. So a big part of the job
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  Speaker 3: also is traveling overseas to see our officers in the field,
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  Speaker 3: as well as our partners in other intelligence services.
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  Speaker 1: To your point about the villains in movies as well.
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  Speaker 1: So I think we talked about this in a previous episode.
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  Speaker 1: I think Jack Ryan becomes deputy director by the end.
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  Speaker 1: So that's one.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's not invariably the deputy is the bad guy,
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  Speaker 3: but there's a theme.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It does come up again.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Suspiciously so.
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  Speaker 4: What we really take issue is when we're murdered in
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  Speaker 4: fictional representations. It's been pointed out to me recently that
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  Speaker 4: there's been some. series where the deputy director of the
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  Speaker 4: FBI is killed or assassinated.
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  Speaker 1: No, that's not good.
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  Speaker 4: That's never good.
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  Speaker 3: That's not good.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 3: We went to a dark place right there.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we thought where we could take the conversation next
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  Speaker 1: was to kind of do some CIA versus FBI 101,
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  Speaker 1: just looking to dispel some often misunderstood differences between the
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  Speaker 1: CIA and the FBI and between the roles and responsibilities
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  Speaker 1: of both organizations. So Deputy Director Cohen, if we could
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  Speaker 1: start with you, how would you characterize the mission of
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  Speaker 1: the CIA?
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  Speaker 3: So I think fundamentally what the CIA is about, we
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  Speaker 3: are a foreign intelligence organization. We collect foreign intelligence, so
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  Speaker 3: information about what is happening overseas, why it's happening, who's involved.
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  Speaker 3: We are an all-source analytic organization, so we take that
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  Speaker 3: intelligence that we collect, as well as other intelligence collected
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  Speaker 3: by others around the intelligence community, as well as open
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  Speaker 3: source information, and write analytic products, the president's daily brief,
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  Speaker 3: the articles in there, other articles and pieces for policymakers
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  Speaker 3: around the community to try to contextualize and make sense
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  Speaker 3: of the intelligence that is being collected so that the
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  Speaker 3: policymakers and the president are well positioned to make the
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  Speaker 3: best decisions possible about where to take our country. All
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  Speaker 3: of that, you know, is underpinned by a really extraordinary
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  Speaker 3: group of officers who develop the technology that we need
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  Speaker 3: to do our work, the logistics that we need to
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  Speaker 3: do our work, the IT backbone. So everything that enables
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  Speaker 3: our collectors and our analysts to do their job. You know,
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  Speaker 3: and then I guess two just sort of unique things
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  Speaker 3: about the agency. Our collection mission is principally what we
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  Speaker 3: call human intelligence. So we are responsible for running assets,
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  Speaker 3: for recruiting people in foreign countries who have access to
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  Speaker 3: information that we need and who are willing to share
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  Speaker 3: it with our officers and who can provide these exquisite
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  Speaker 3: insights that you can really only get from a person
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  Speaker 3: who is in a position of access and of knowledge.
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  Speaker 3: And the other thing unique aspect of the agency is
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  Speaker 3: that we're also the organization, the U.S. government responsible for
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  Speaker 3: covert action. So if the president is looking for some
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  Speaker 3: way to address a problem that it sort of falls
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  Speaker 3: between diplomacy at one end of the spectrum and military,
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  Speaker 3: more harder edged actions at the other end, but something
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  Speaker 3: where we're trying to affect a situation in the world
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  Speaker 3: without the U.S. hand being apparent. So hiding the hand
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  Speaker 3: of the U.S., the agency is asked to engage in
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  Speaker 3: that activity. So instead of just describing the world as
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  Speaker 3: we see it, to try to affect the world as
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  Speaker 3: it may be, without it being obvious that the United
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  Speaker 3: States is behind it. I think in a nutshell, the
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  Speaker 3: agency's mission.
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  Speaker 1: That's really helpful.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Deputy Director Bates, same question to you. How would
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: you characterize the mission of FBI?
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  Speaker 4: The public-facing mission statement for the FBI is, is to
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  Speaker 4: protect the American people and uphold the Constitution. And that
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  Speaker 4: really captures the essence of what we do. It's all
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  Speaker 4: about keeping people safe from harm, particularly protecting human life
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  Speaker 4: and then defending our country in all aspects, including national
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  Speaker 4: and economic security. We have a dual mission and authorities.
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  Speaker 4: It's both intelligence and law enforcement. I think we're unique
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  Speaker 4: in that regard and lead here domestically. We certainly have
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  Speaker 4: an international presence and work closely in collaboration with our
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: agency colleagues overseas across those mission areas. And when we
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  Speaker 4: look at what we do within that, the mission priorities, again,
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  Speaker 4: these are public-facing. It does start with national security. Counterterrorism,
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  Speaker 4: preventing terrorist attacks, continues to be our number one priority.
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  Speaker 4: And then we have counterintelligence, espionage, working within that realm also.
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  Speaker 4: the cyber, which is emerging or has emerged in recent years.
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  Speaker 4: And there's both a national security and a criminal component
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  Speaker 4: to that. And then we have the more traditional criminal
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  Speaker 4: investigative priorities to include working to reduce violent crime here
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  Speaker 4: domestically with state and local law enforcement, other partners, fighting
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  Speaker 4: public corruption, working against transnational organized criminal groups, which again,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: that's domestic and international and partnered as well, protecting individual
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: civil rights, and then working to investigate complex white-collar crime.
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  Speaker 4: That captures the mission pretty much in its entirety. It's wide-ranging,
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  Speaker 4: very broad, and we're fortunate to be vested with the
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  Speaker 4: authorities and the capabilities that we have, again, spanning intel
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  Speaker 4: and law enforcement to bring to bear with partners against
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  Speaker 4: all of those threats. With prevention, being first and foremost,
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  Speaker 4: the goal proactively working to prevent things from happening, but
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: also having the capability and the resources to respond and investigate,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: deliver justice when that's necessary as well.
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  Speaker 1: It's super interesting that you bring that up, sir, because
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  Speaker 1: it sounds almost like FBI has a joint intel and
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  Speaker 1: law enforcement mission. CIA has a joint intel and, if
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: directed by the president, covert action mission. So both organizations
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  Speaker 1: have a joint function.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think the one area where Where we
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: differ significantly is in the law enforcement space where FBI
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: has law enforcement authorities. We will help the FBI in
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  Speaker 3: providing information that we may pick up overseas about a
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: potential law enforcement matter, particularly here in the U.S., but
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: then it's over to the FBI to address it if
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: they want to address it as a law enforcement matter
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: rather than intelligence matter, over to them to use their
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: authorities in the law enforcement realm to address that problem.
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  Speaker 4: Each of our agencies approaches the work objectively and it's fact-based.
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  Speaker 4: And we operate with independence in terms of pursuing the
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: work that we do. And I think also, as we
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: touched on before, both of our agencies were action-oriented. We
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: take the intelligence, the information, the facts, and we take
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: a proactive approach geared toward action to be preventative, again,
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  Speaker 4: to keep people safe and to protect the country. I think,
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  Speaker 4: as David noted, where we diverge is particularly in the
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: law enforcement.
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  Speaker 3: Can I just footstomp one thing that Paul said? And
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  Speaker 3: that's the similarity between our two organizations in pursuing our
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  Speaker 3: missions objectively, apolitically, And that is deep in the DNA,
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  Speaker 3: I think, of both of our organizations. We're here to
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: ensure the safety and security of Americans here in the U.S.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: and abroad. And the way to do that is to
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: be as straightforward and as objective as possible about what
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: the threats are, what the challenges are, and to provide
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  Speaker 3: our best assessment of the best way to to go
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: about addressing those challenges. And that is a critical similarity
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: between our organizations and something that is, I think, for
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  Speaker 3: both of us, critical to our organizations.
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  Speaker 1: This might be a great time to get this out
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: of the way because it comes up in movies and
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: television all the time. Agents versus officers. These terms mean
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: very different things.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Our two organizations. So, you know, can we go through
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: what each means to who?
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Our employees are officers. When you come to work for
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: the CAA, you're a CAA officer.
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  Speaker 4: Similarly, in the FBI, we have very defined job roles.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: The sworn law enforcement officer role is the FBI special agent.
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  Speaker 4: Agent is the term.
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  Speaker 3: They're all special. Every one of your agents are special, right?
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 4: And then beyond that, much like the agency, we have
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: intelligence analysts. And then we have, like the agency also,
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: an entire cadre of professional staff roles within the agency
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Or at CIA, the foreign individual, Deputy Director Cohen, you
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: were talking about who's working with our officers to pass
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: them national security information. That would be what we would
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: consider source or asset or agent.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: So the foreign person who has agreed to work with
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: our officer overseas to provide information about what's going on
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: in his or her country, we call that person an
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: agent or a source or an asset. But in our vocabulary,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: that is the agent.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: And in the Bureau the term we use for a
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: source is the formal term is confidential human source or CHS.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: But within the lexicon, we use a lot of different terms,
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: asset source.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of novelists right now who are
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: like scratching out their manuscripts.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So now that we have the basics out of the way,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: let's go into some scenario-based questions. We'll give you an example.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: You tell us which organization would be responsible for handling
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: that situation.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: Hope we get this right.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: So no pressure.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: No pressure. Okay, so first, this federal organization has been
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: tracking a large criminal enterprise that operates across multiple U.S.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: states for years. Now, at long last, they have information
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: on the location of its key figures. and enough evidence
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: to justify a court-issued arrest warrant for them. Its officers
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: or agents move in, arrest the individuals, and take them
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: into custody. So our question for you, gentlemen, is which
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: agency would handle this?
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: I'll jump in. This is what you've just described as
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: the traditional FBI criminal case where we're, you know, after
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: likely a long-term investigation, we're moving in and obtaining arrest warrants.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: issued by a judge, a court, and then affecting a
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: takedown of the members of the organization and doing a
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: disruption there.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: So second, an officer or agent of this federal organization
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: is working overseas, gathering information of national security importance to
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: the United States, not as a part of any law
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: enforcement investigation, but to detect threats to the American people
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and other critical international issues before they arise. This officer, agent,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: meets in secret with a source who claims to have
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: access to information on a new terrorist group forming in
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the region. Who's handling this one?
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: I think we would most likely be the ones handling
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: this one in the CIA. So if we have a
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: source who is in a position to provide us this
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: kind of information about a terrorist group that is forming
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: and potentially threatening the United States, we would meet in
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: secret clandestinely with that source. We would figure out what
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: he or she knows. We would write that up in
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: a cable and send it back to headquarters. I will
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: say that information will then be shared across the intelligence community,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: including with the FBI, particularly if there is anything in
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: there that has any touch points to the United States
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: or to another criminal or terrorist organization that the FBI
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: is tracking. as part of the intelligence community, has access
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: to our reporting as well. But I think this meeting
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: with the source overseas is something that we would probably handle.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. And third, and you actually, I think,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: just gave folks at home a clue to the answer
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: to this third one quite possibly, but this federal organization
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: uncovers foreign intelligence that a massive shipment of dangerous illicit
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: chemicals is inbound to the United States. And acting on
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: this information, U.S., let's call them operatives, interdict the shipment
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: and confiscate the material. So which organization would be handling
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: this one?
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: This is where it all comes together. We're working together
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: to effect a disruption, prevent a lethal drug from entering
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: the United States and potentially killing Americans. And this is
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: really a reflection of a real-life case that we were
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: all engaged on.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is, if you're thinking of the same case,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: this was intelligence information that the agency obtained about a
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: shipment of precursors for fentanyl that, as I recall, were
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: on their way initially into the United States and then
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: for onward shipment, I think, down to Mexico, where it
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: would be then mixed into fentanyl. We obtained this information,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: had the way bill for the shipment that showed that
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: it was going to be arriving at a particular place,
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: I think, in 48 hours. We quickly pushed out the
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: intelligence report on this. I'm sure we also picked up
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: the phone and alerted our counterparts at the FBI about
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: this shipment so that since this was going to be
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: in the United States, a law enforcement activity could be initiated.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: CIA doesn't do that. So over to our law enforcement partners.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: It's important to note as well that none of this
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: is mutually exclusive. We do have legislated authorities, each of
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: our agencies do, and there are very defined lanes in
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: the road. In terms of the collaboration, we take it
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: in a lot of different pathways to affect the ultimate
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: outcome that we're all seeking to achieve here in terms
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: of prevention. We also are very integrated and cross-detailed and
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: embedded between the agencies. It's very effective.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Look, I think one of the lessons from 9-11, frankly,
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: was that the CIA and the FBI needed to find
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: ways to work more collaboratively. And so I think one
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: of the things that both our organizations have committed to
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: and have made a lot of progress on is ensuring
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: that we have good lines of communication and that we
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: collaborate and we work together. Obviously, we have our authorities
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: and we have our restrictions on what we can do
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: and the same for the FBI. So we're mindful of
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: what the lines are and what we're allowed to do
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: and what we're not allowed to do under the law.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: But that doesn't prevent us at all from making sure
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: that we collaborate really effectively to deliver to the American
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: people sort of the best of what their government has
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: to offer in providing safety and providing security.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Well, it's clear that you both have worked extensively together
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and that you both know a lot about each other's organizations.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: So let's ramp things up here and do some rapid-fire questions.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: And let's kick things off with a question of if
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: you could have any job at your counterpart's organization, so
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Deputy Director Cohen at FBI or Deputy Director of Bait
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: at CIA, which would it be?
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Should I go first?
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: It's a tough question. It is a hard question.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: You know, so.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I spent 20 years as a white-collar criminal defense attorney,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: and I cannot count the number of times I was
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: on the other side of the table from a FBI
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: special agent who was asking questions to my client. I
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: think that that looked like, although at the time quite painful,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: seemed like a lot of fun. So I think it'd
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: be fun to be an FBI special agent working white-collar
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: criminal cases.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: I have many thoughts here about what I might want
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: to do. I guess I'd go to the core of
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: what I do now.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: But take it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: Into the CIA and I'd want to be working as
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: an officer or a tactical operator for the CIA in
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: the most dangerous, toughest environment in the world, working against
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: adversaries there. That's probably what I'm drawn to most, but
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I also would be interested in, much like you do,
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: and this is reflected in our roles now, just representing
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: the agency, working in media and public affairs, outreach and recruiting,
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: which we do a lot of within our jobs. But
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: I could see having a lot of interest in taking
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: on a role like that in the CIA as well,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: which is very different from being on the front line.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: I could also see being like an FBI lab tech.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: I think that would be really fun. Like some of
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: the folks who do like the ballistics analysis and can
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: figure out this bullet came from that gun because of
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: the barrel markings on the thing. I think that's pretty cool.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Crime scene investigator, CSI.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, crime scene investigator. Very good.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Bowens, are you familiar with?
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: So some of these other questions, these are just general
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: questions that the world might be curious about. This organization's
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: headquarters is surrounded by lushly wooded terrain.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's us.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: CIA?
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we've got the benefit of being outside of downtown
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: Washington in beautiful Langley, Virginia, surrounded by... by trees. That's nice.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: FBI is in downtown DC in the historic building. But actually,
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: we love the location because it's proximate to places where
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: we do business every day. We've got the Department of
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: Justice across the street, the National Security Council down the street,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: Congress in the other direction. And we have hundreds of
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: employees who are doing the work colleagues from all of
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: these entities within government and other agencies as well, each
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: and every day. And I think also we touched on
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: before the transparency that's required of agencies like ours, and
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: particularly the FBI, being in a highly public location where
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: we are having been there for decades now is really important.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: Having open access to the public where people can see
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: it is also essential to the work that we do.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're a secret intelligence agency. We like to be
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: out here in the woods in the way.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: How about this one? Which organization has more lawyers?
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: I think we both have a lot of lawyers.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Practicing lawyers?
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: We're both lawyers.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: I don't have the experience that the deputy has in
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: white collar defense and real world lawyering. But I did
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: go to law school and I am a member of
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: a bar.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Amazingly, I also passed the bar. But look, I think
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: both our organizations have a lot of lawyers who are
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: actually quite helpful in making sure that we know what
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: the boundaries are and helping us ensure that not only
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: do we stay within those boundaries, but that we are...
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: are effective in executing our missions. As a lawyer, I
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: must say I'm a big fan of lawyers.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Fair enough.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: It's important for all those reasons. We've both been doing
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: this for a long time. I think that one, it's
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: necessary to ensure that we're operating absolutely within the law
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: and regulation. And everything around that. But I've never been
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: in the Bureau 28 plus years now. And I've worked
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: in a lot of different places and around the world.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: I've always found great value and a necessity of including
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: our Office of General Counsel and the attorneys within our agencies.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: I think folks at home would be surprised by how
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: many lawyers there are at both CIA and FBI. Well,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: next question then would be Quantico. Whose organization is associated
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: with that?
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: That's where the FBI Academy is located, Quantico, Virginia, home
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: of the Marine Corps as well. It's actually a Marine
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: Corps base that we are housed on. Our academy has
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: been there for a number of years. Much like the
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: agency's training ground, really special place for us. I often
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: have the opportunity to go back there. I went through
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: training there for a three-, four-month period at the outset. And,
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: you know, when you go back there, it still brings
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: back the memories and the feelings that one had in
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: entering the organization and the, you know, kind of the
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: privilege that comes with that.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: The farm? Yeah.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: So the farm is our training facility. I won't tell
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: you where it is. Like Paul will tell you where
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: Quantico is.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Okay. Begin the differences.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Begin the differences, exactly. But it serves in many respects
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: the same function that Quantico serves for the Bureau, which
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: that's where our officers go to get trained. That's where
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: they spend weeks on end learning the tradecraft of this
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: new profession that they have signed up for. And that's
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: where they really become agency officers.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: This next one is pretty contentious, actually. Who has better food?
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: On-prem?
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: I'm going to step in and cede this to the agency.
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: I think that because, you know, we talk about this
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: a lot. I'm really into food. And I'm always asking.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: People this question.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: But I think, and I want to take this away
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: from you, but this headquarters, your headquarters, has a greater
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: diversity of food options and I think better food all around,
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: though we've gained a lot in recent times.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I got to say, though, on the— other hand,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: you know, because you are in downtown DC and in
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: close proximity to lots of, uh, lots of options and
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: we have, we have good food here. I want to
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: be clear. Our food service does an outstanding job, but it,
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: you know, it's very hard to get off campus and, and,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: and get food here. So I don't know. That's, uh,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: I think there's a, there's good point.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: This is six to one.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Dresses better.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: So I wore a white shirt today.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: I saw that.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Because I knew I would be doing this. Because the
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: FBI always wears white shirts, which is pretty snazzy. It's
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: a good, crisp look. So I think you guys may
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: dress better.
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it depends on what you're looking for.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: But true, the Bureau historically is fashion-oriented, formally dressed, suit
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: and tie, white shirt. That's the hallmark of- The FBI agent.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know who wrote these questions, but they were
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: clearly trying to stir stuff up. I have here, who
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: is cooler? Between the two of us or the agency?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: However you want to take that question.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: We had hoped you'd both say your organizations at the
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, I think I'm going to take a
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: pass on that one. That's where we can get that one.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: I'm just going to say they're both really, really cool.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: We were talking about this I think that's reflected in,
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: you know, public interest in each of the agencies and
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: the work that we do and the people who work here.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: And we've touched on some movies and TV shows. But
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: when you look around, there's no agencies that get more
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: attention in that regard. And I think that says something
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: about the cool factor. There are so many movies, so
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: many television shows, so many books about each of our
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: agencies and people love it.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: There are also TV shows in particular, movies as well,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: that merge our agencies in what we do. So like Homeland,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: very popular TV show. Carrie Matheson was supposed to be
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: a CIA officer. Everything that she did is what the
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: FBI does. It was all domestic law enforcement activity and
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: domestic intelligence activity. We don't do what Carrie Matheson does.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure you guys do either, but it was
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: sort of this merging of what the CAA and the
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: FBI are all about.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: It's not always accurate, but it's really cool.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Well, the next time folks watch a TV show in
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: which a CIA officer is like arresting someone within the
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: United States or an FBI agent abroad is conducting covert
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: action or something. You can be like, oh, not so fast.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: That would be a real problem.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: So we started off this episode talking about what drew
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: you to public service, national security. If you were to
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: give an elevator pitch, like a 30-second pitch to someone
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: who hadn't seen themselves kind of in this space before,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: didn't ever think about a job in the CIA, in
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: the FBI, or in the general intelligence community, what would
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: that pitch sound like?
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: What draws people to the FBI, to each of our
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: agencies really, is one, the sense of purpose that comes
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: with the job, protecting and helping others, and the all-around
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: fulfillment that comes from achieving that. And then also, I
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: think each of our agencies offer just a great breadth
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: and diversity of opportunity in terms of where you can work,
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: both domestically and internationally, and those opportunities exist for both
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: of us. And then the program areas that you can
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: work within, as I mentioned before, you know, counterterrorism, counterintelligence, cyber,
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: and all the criminal programs as well. There's just a
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: lot there, a lot of opportunity for people to take
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: advantage of, and they gain great fulfillment from people carrying
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: out the work. And then I think there's a real
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: sense of family throughout each of our organizations that binds
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: us all together.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that is very similar to the elevator
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: pitch I would give. If you want to do something
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: that is sort of bigger than yourself, if you are
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: interested in national security, in providing for the American people
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: a secure environment in which folks can live their lives
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: and pursue their ambitions, If you're interested in an intellectual
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: challenge and variety in a career, if you're interested in
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: doing things that are actually pretty exciting, I actually think
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: both our organizations offer that. I think the particular mission
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: areas that we have in the agency, some of them
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: are quite similar. There's counterterrorism, there's counterintelligence, but we also have,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: I think, a little bit more of a of a
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: foreign focus. If you really want to become an expert,
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: we've got a job for you here at the agency.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: So I think that, you know, there's a slightly different
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: emphasis on foreign versus domestic, but like the fundamentals are
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: the same. That's, you know, the sense of purpose, the
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: sense of mission, the sense of, you know, of giving
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: back and having a job that is like every day
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: rewarding in its own right is a real privilege and working,
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: I think, in both our organizations.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you for that.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Deputy Director Bate. Sir, you spoke about the family that
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: FBI is. We at CIA feel the same way. And
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: there are so many of us, obviously, who have worked
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: alongside members of the Bureau. And needless to say, we
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: have immense respect for what you guys do. So thank
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: you so much for being here. And thank you for everything.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: And our thanks to Deputy Director Cohen as well. Thank
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: you both for sitting across the table and having this
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: conversation with us. We really appreciate you being here. It's
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: been an honor for both of us. So thank you,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: both of you, and you're both special in my opinion.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: We have an honorary special agent.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Well, we were just talking about the different roles and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: responsibilities for FBI and CIA and the fact that CIA
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: is the default organization for COVID action for the U.S. government.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: And I think our last trivia question actually involved covert action.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Walter, look at you just nailing that segue.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I love a good segue.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Right into the trivia question.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Okay. The last trivia question that we posed to you was,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: this year marks the 50th anniversary of an extraordinary feat
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: of CIA ingenuity. and a mission with an incredible yet
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: believable cover story, which included a well-known billionaire and the
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: supposed depths to which he would go for some minerals.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Our question to you is, what was the codename of
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: this now publicly known mission?
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: If you tuned into one of our original episodes, in
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: episode five, you may recall Rob Beyer, the director of
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: CIA's museum, mentioned his favorite CIA mission, which took place
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: back in the 1970s. The mission was called Project Azorian.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And in this operation, CIA, with the help of billionaire
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Howard Hughes... created a cover story to subvert attention as
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: CIA looked to raise a sunken Soviet submarine off the
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Pacific Ocean floor. This cover story included a large mining
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: vessel named the Glomar Explorer that was being used to
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: mine manganese nodules from the ocean floor. The actual operation
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: was somewhat successful as they were able to raise a
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: portion of the Soviet submarine, and this amazing feat was
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: deemed an engineering marvel, but unfortunately for the overall mission,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: the cover story was blown as the story made its
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: way to the press.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: And as Rob said on that episode, that mention in
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: the press is what prompted the now famous line, we
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: can neither confirm nor deny. And we call that the
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Glomar response after the Glomar Explorer. Now for our next
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: trivia question. In this episode, we heard Deputy Director Cohen
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: and Deputy Director Abate describe the locations of their respective
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: agencies' headquarters. And while CIA headquarters is currently found surrounded
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: by wooded terrain in Langley, It wasn't always located here.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: So our question to you is, where was the official
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: first location of CIA headquarters?
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Stay tuned to the next episode for the answer, or
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: check out our YouTube channel and see if you can
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: figure it out from there.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: It's always there. Well, that's it for this episode. As always,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: we thank Corey and Griff for their audio expertise, and
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: we thank all of you for tuning in.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: From all of us here at Langley, until next time.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: We'll be seeing you. Dee and I just ducked back
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: into the conference room, and Deputy Director Cohen and Deputy
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Director Bate have begun arm wrestling. They've revisited that who's
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: cooler question.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: And things are going sideways fast.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I think, oh, here it comes, over the top.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure who's going to win this one. This
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: has escalated very quickly. We should never have asked who's cooler.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: We never should have asked that question.