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PERP RECORDS 7-HOUR TORTURE MURDER OF NURSE, INDICTED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: It's party time. Did he actually say that it's party time? Oh?
0:07
Speaker 1: Yes he did. It's party time, says the X as
0:15
Speaker 1: he records a seven hour torture murder session of a
0:23
Speaker 1: gorgeous young nurse and mother. How dare he he recorded it?
0:31
Speaker 1: That's how I know he said it's party time. Good evening,
0:36
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. I want to
0:38
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
0:46
Speaker 2: Catherine Torbick is a beloved nurse and devoted mother known
0:49
Speaker 2: for bringing warrants and positive energy everywhere she goes, until
0:53
Speaker 2: her light is brutally extinguished when she suddenly stops answering
0:57
Speaker 2: her phone. Police rush through her home and find her responsive.
1:01
Speaker 1: Incredible, and I'm going to get to veteran defense attorney
1:04
Speaker 1: Franz and boorcarts in just a moment, and hear him
1:08
Speaker 1: tell me how that recording is inadmissible and nobody will
1:11
Speaker 1: ever hear it, and that it doesn't mean anything. And
1:14
Speaker 1: this guy is the mental illness and the blaw and
1:16
Speaker 1: the blaw. But first, before I hear all that, Cacaphany,
1:23
Speaker 1: I want to go straight out to a special guest
1:24
Speaker 1: joining me. It is Maria Acapiato, a very dear friend
1:30
Speaker 1: and co worker of Kat Torbik. May she rest in peace?
1:36
Speaker 1: How can she rest in peace? I do not know,
1:39
Speaker 1: because she is leaving behind a twelve year old little boy, Jackson. Okay, Maria,
1:48
Speaker 1: I'm going to thank you for being with us tonight.
1:51
Speaker 3: Thank you.
1:52
Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. When did you learn something
1:56
Speaker 1: had gone horribly wrong with Kat?
2:00
Speaker 3: So last last week Thursday, you know, my boss was
2:07
Speaker 3: messaging me that telling me that they could not get
2:09
Speaker 3: a hold of Cats her other work because she has
2:12
Speaker 3: three jobs. So I message Cat and I said, where
2:18
Speaker 3: are you? And I'm hoping you're okay because I know
2:21
Speaker 3: the whole situation on what happened to her and back
2:24
Speaker 3: in March, and and I have this bad feeling and
2:28
Speaker 3: see that there's gonna be something coming for her.
2:33
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, this is just near to me. So I
2:36
Speaker 4: just I can't process this like right now.
2:39
Speaker 3: But so when we found out later that she was murdered,
2:48
Speaker 3: they found her that night on Thursday. So this is Friday,
2:53
Speaker 3: the next day where I found out. And I just
2:55
Speaker 3: talked to her on Thursday, I mean Tuesday that week,
2:58
Speaker 3: and we were just having a great conversation and talking
3:01
Speaker 3: about her, you know, event that she's going on on Saturday,
3:06
Speaker 3: and she had her hair done and she looks gorgeous
3:09
Speaker 3: as she always does, and then she's just gone dot
3:13
Speaker 3: we It's so unexpected, and I knew that that's gonna
3:18
Speaker 3: happen to her. And I've been telling her a bunch
3:21
Speaker 3: of times, a million times that she needs to get
3:23
Speaker 3: out of there because in that safe for her, I'm
3:28
Speaker 3: just gone.
3:33
Speaker 5: I'm sorry with us.
3:34
Speaker 1: Is Maria Acipiato, a very dear friend, a co worker
3:40
Speaker 1: of cats, And you're seeing what crime does, the incredible
3:49
Speaker 1: wake of devastation it leaves behind. Can you imagine what
3:56
Speaker 1: her twelve year old son is going through? This is
4:00
Speaker 1: this woman looks like a model. I've never seen a
4:04
Speaker 1: bad photo of her. She aside from being beautiful on
4:08
Speaker 1: the outside, she's beautiful on the inside and worked three
4:12
Speaker 1: jobs to support her little boy who is just jurn twelve, jackson,
4:17
Speaker 1: and he is at that moment. You know, when I
4:19
Speaker 1: had children, I couldn't imagine they would need me any
4:22
Speaker 1: more than when they were little babies and they needed
4:25
Speaker 1: me for them to live and survive. But when you
4:28
Speaker 1: get to eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, those are some of
4:32
Speaker 1: the most critical years in their lives, and now he
4:36
Speaker 1: doesn't have a mother what I believe to be the
4:40
Speaker 1: single most important person in your life. She's gone, and
4:46
Speaker 1: under such horrible circumstances. Maria. I want you to tell
4:50
Speaker 1: your story, but I've got to follow up on a
4:52
Speaker 1: few things that you said. First, she mentioned she's working
4:55
Speaker 1: three jobs. I know, one was at was it a
4:58
Speaker 1: hospital or a doctor's.
4:59
Speaker 3: Office, So she's been working there Lutheran General, so she's
5:03
Speaker 3: been working there for almost twenty years. And then she
5:08
Speaker 3: works here at a med spa. She's an injector. She's
5:12
Speaker 3: one of our amazing injector. She's been here with us
5:17
Speaker 3: for I guess over four years. And I've known cat
5:22
Speaker 3: for around five years because I work with her some
5:25
Speaker 3: other med spa and then we moved to this med
5:28
Speaker 3: spa here, so that's how I look at And she's
5:33
Speaker 3: been always been an amazing human being around people, and
5:37
Speaker 3: I just we just kind of got bonded because you know,
5:40
Speaker 3: I'm a single mom and she's a single mom, and
5:42
Speaker 3: it was just bonded with that in that sense. And
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Speaker 3: you know, she's been telling me about what's going on
5:48
Speaker 3: in her life and how this man is controlling her,
5:51
Speaker 3: and it was hard for her to get out because
5:54
Speaker 3: you know, she's scared that she might lose the job
5:56
Speaker 3: because he's like threatening her, Like why do you do
6:01
Speaker 3: this to this human being? Like she's just wanted to
6:05
Speaker 3: be a great do you know, mother to her son,
6:09
Speaker 3: and that kid has always been the number one priority
6:12
Speaker 3: for Kat And.
6:15
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? I'm curious when you
6:17
Speaker 1: say Jackson, her little boy was her number one priority.
6:21
Speaker 1: How did she evidence that.
6:24
Speaker 4: She's always there for him.
6:26
Speaker 3: I know their interaction because I've seen it like so
6:29
Speaker 3: many times. You know, sometimes she'll bring Jackson to our
6:33
Speaker 3: work and you know, my boss is pretty amazing. They
6:36
Speaker 3: just wanted they're okay with it. I mean, he's older anyway,
6:41
Speaker 3: and you know so because nobody's watching him. So she
6:46
Speaker 3: always does a lot of things for her son, and
6:48
Speaker 3: she talks about him constantly, how you know, like you know,
6:53
Speaker 3: worried about his future is going to be, Like she
6:57
Speaker 3: needs to work this much to provide for him. It's
7:01
Speaker 3: just like a lot going on in her life when
7:04
Speaker 3: it comes to that. But also this ten year relationship
7:08
Speaker 3: with this monster that that killed her, it's just it's
7:14
Speaker 3: just you know, I just I can't even put my
7:18
Speaker 3: head in.
7:19
Speaker 1: You stated that you had a quote bad feeling, and
7:23
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone to discount that because I have
7:27
Speaker 1: had so many family and friends of murder victims say
7:33
Speaker 1: I had a bad feeling. That morning, I tried to
7:35
Speaker 1: find him her. I called around because I just had
7:39
Speaker 1: this overwhelming dread. I've heard it over and over and over.
7:44
Speaker 1: It's like a sixth sense. What was your bad feeling.
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Speaker 3: When it started off back in March when he almost
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Speaker 3: I love her.
7:55
Speaker 4: I told her to I.
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Speaker 3: Was watching a documentary somehow that night before I want
8:00
Speaker 3: to work the next day, and when this all happened,
8:03
Speaker 3: and she told me what happened, and you know, I
8:05
Speaker 3: saw all the bruises. She showed it to me. She
8:07
Speaker 3: had some stuff going on in her eye and I
8:10
Speaker 3: was like it was healing. She has some cut on
8:12
Speaker 3: her neck and said, Kat, this is really bad and
8:15
Speaker 3: I want you to get out of there now. Like
8:17
Speaker 3: I was watching this documentary last night and I I,
8:21
Speaker 3: you know, I saw this woman they're getting being beaten
8:24
Speaker 3: and killed by their spouses and whatnot. And I don't
8:28
Speaker 3: want to see you in that sense where on TV
8:31
Speaker 3: or in the news in that sense, and she's like, oh,
8:35
Speaker 3: I'm gonna definitely work on that. And I was like,
8:37
Speaker 3: but it's not about working on that. You need to
8:40
Speaker 3: get out now.
8:42
Speaker 4: And then I and it's like, so, what happened to him?
8:45
Speaker 3: Did they found him?
8:46
Speaker 6: They?
8:46
Speaker 3: And she's like, no, they didn't. And I was like, Okay,
8:49
Speaker 3: you're not concerned, Like I'm concerned for that. And you
8:53
Speaker 3: call everybody that you know and look for him, because
8:57
Speaker 3: it's not good for you to stay in that house.
8:59
Speaker 3: Wien who was still out there. I don't know what
9:02
Speaker 3: he's doing hiding because you know he's got a warrant
9:05
Speaker 3: for his arrests.
9:06
Speaker 1: Joining us in addition to Maria Acipiado is Sabrina Franza.
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Speaker 1: She is investigative reporter CBS News Chicago. Sabrina, thank you
9:15
Speaker 1: so much for being with us tonight. You heard Maria
9:18
Speaker 1: referring to a March incident and I have the warrant
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Speaker 1: for that. It was awful what he did to her
9:28
Speaker 1: in March, and she reported it to police. She even
9:32
Speaker 1: gave a taped statement stating that she was afraid he
9:37
Speaker 1: would kill her. That was back in March. Why is
9:43
Speaker 1: he walking free? Sabrina Franza why was it he in jail.
9:52
Speaker 7: We've pressed the Schomberg Police Department about that, because the
9:57
Speaker 7: incident that you're referring to happened mid March, and they
10:00
Speaker 7: told us that they went to the house forty separate
10:04
Speaker 7: times trying to find him, in addition to other locations
10:09
Speaker 7: that he was known to, frequent places of work, and
10:12
Speaker 7: other neighborhoods surrounding this suburb of Chicago, Schomberg where this
10:16
Speaker 7: crime happened. What they could not tell us though, was
10:20
Speaker 7: when the last time was that they had gone to
10:24
Speaker 7: the house, and later found out in the same audio
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Speaker 7: recording that you referenced earlier, the seven hour long audio
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Speaker 7: recording of this gruesome murder, that he had been at
10:36
Speaker 7: the house as early as March twenty second, which as
10:41
Speaker 7: we know, is much earlier than this crime actually happened.
10:47
Speaker 7: So it is curious, and like I said, we keep
10:50
Speaker 7: pressing the police department to figure out if you went
10:52
Speaker 7: to the house forty times, if he was there a
10:56
Speaker 7: few weeks prior to this crime happening, come their paths
11:01
Speaker 7: didn't cross, how come he wasn't found Well?
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Speaker 1: Another issue is that he had to have a vehicle.
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Speaker 1: Let me go straight out to a veteran defense attorney,
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Speaker 1: Franz Borkart, criminal defense attorney, founder of the Borcart Law Firm,
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Speaker 1: former prosecutor, professor Louisiana State University, Franz, take off your
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Speaker 1: defense hat just for one moment. I'm trying to figure
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Speaker 1: out how in the h doublell this guy who tried
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Speaker 1: to kill her before, managed to roam free, including around
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Speaker 1: her house, and not get apprehended. And now she's dead, Franz.
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Speaker 1: She gave police a taped statement where she predicts her
11:45
Speaker 1: own death. She says, I believe he will try to
11:47
Speaker 1: kill me, and there he was back at her place.
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Speaker 6: They didn't get him because that one they probably didn't
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Speaker 6: take it as serious as it was, and two they're
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Speaker 6: probably case loadwise, this wasn't a priority to them. And
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Speaker 6: now she's dead.
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Speaker 1: Put him up. Did you actually just say this is
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Speaker 1: not a priority. She's dead, Franz. How to kill him?
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Speaker 1: A terroristic threat, which is threatening to harm someone a felony.
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Speaker 1: I think he tried to kill her before. I don't
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Speaker 1: think that was just an assault as it has been stated.
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Speaker 1: He held a knife on her, He beat her black
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Speaker 1: and blue. She was in the hospital the last time.
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Speaker 1: How can that not be a priority.
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Speaker 6: So the reality is we're seeing this nationally that underfunded,
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Speaker 6: overwork police, they're not making these kind of arrests and
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Speaker 6: getting these guys, and it's not a priority because they're
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Speaker 6: doing triage in their jobs. And that is an unfortunate
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Speaker 6: and scary reality that we're seeing across the country. And
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Speaker 6: it is a priority, Nancy. But the unfortunate reality is
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Speaker 6: they're not going to get charged with any facet of
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Speaker 6: this crime.
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Speaker 1: He will Maria Acapiano. It is referred to as a
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Speaker 1: previous domestic incident. It was much more than an incident, Maria.
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Speaker 1: He nearly killed her, then he held her at knife point.
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Speaker 1: He beat her horribly to the point she had to
13:24
Speaker 1: be hospitalized, and somehow she managed to drag to a
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Speaker 1: neighbor's house. That's the only way she was saved last time,
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Speaker 1: and they did nothing. Now she's dead.
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Speaker 3: I'm just so mad about that, Nancy, because I feel
13:41
Speaker 3: like nobody taken her seriously and she is serious about this,
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Speaker 3: and I told her, I was like, you know, we
13:46
Speaker 3: can go with you, Kat, Like literally, we can do
13:50
Speaker 3: whatever you need. We're always here for you. And I
13:54
Speaker 3: just don't want you to be gone and like, you know,
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Speaker 3: like I just this bad feeling that I have is
13:59
Speaker 3: not going a way. And you know, she's like, well,
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Speaker 3: I'm taking precaution, and you know, I change all the
14:06
Speaker 3: cameras inside the house, and and you know, like there's
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Speaker 3: some police I guess patrolling somehow. And I know, I
14:15
Speaker 3: remember one time she brought in her son after that incident,
14:19
Speaker 3: and and you know, like their interaction, she was just
14:23
Speaker 3: worried about her son if she leaves him in the house.
14:27
Speaker 3: But then there was one time also that she left
14:30
Speaker 3: her son and her son was been calling her constantly
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Speaker 3: saying that there's somebody in the house, like a noise
14:37
Speaker 3: or something. And she's like, well, Jackson, you're just making
14:41
Speaker 3: this upsete, But can't you don't understand, like send him
14:44
Speaker 3: to the neighborhood's you know, house and stuff, and then
14:48
Speaker 3: when you get done here, you can just pick him
14:50
Speaker 3: up from that. Just just be you know, just be
14:53
Speaker 3: cautious because this man, they never found him.
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Speaker 5: You never know.
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Speaker 1: The reality is he would terrorize her and attack her,
15:03
Speaker 1: knowing full well she had a twelve year old boy
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Speaker 1: that lived with her. Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, how
15:12
Speaker 1: did you learn that she was killed?
15:14
Speaker 3: So it was through my boss sent me this link
15:16
Speaker 3: to a news that they and identified. They did not
15:21
Speaker 3: identify her yet, but then my heart just sunk because
15:26
Speaker 3: when they saw when I saw the house in her
15:30
Speaker 3: car is on the driveway, it's like that's cap Like
15:34
Speaker 3: then I just start breaking down, like I can't even
15:37
Speaker 3: you know, I was just crying, like I just I couldn't,
15:40
Speaker 3: you know. It's my heart just like hurting at that
15:44
Speaker 3: moment because I knew it was Cat.
15:47
Speaker 5: That's how I found out.
15:48
Speaker 1: Did you know immediately that she had been murdered?
15:53
Speaker 3: Yes, I knew that when they said that she you know,
15:58
Speaker 3: the woman died from trangulation, and I was like I
16:02
Speaker 3: already knew this.
16:03
Speaker 4: I just I just don't know how to say it
16:05
Speaker 4: to her so many times, like you know, this is
16:08
Speaker 4: going to happen. He's gonna finish that job. Yet they
16:12
Speaker 4: couldn't find him and that was worrisome for me. And
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Speaker 4: always message her and ask her if she's gonna be okay,
16:19
Speaker 4: and you know, and watch her back and you know,
16:22
Speaker 4: she has to be very careful. So don't know what
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Speaker 4: else too. I feel like I didn't do much to
16:30
Speaker 4: keep her safe.
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Speaker 1: Do you know, Maria, how her son is holding up
16:42
Speaker 1: her little boy.
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Speaker 3: I really don't know, and I'm pretty sure that he
16:47
Speaker 3: is heartbroken because he loves his mom so much, and
16:50
Speaker 3: I know their interaction. That kid is like a mama's boy,
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Speaker 3: Like he's always like with her constantly, they do things
17:01
Speaker 3: together all the time.
17:02
Speaker 4: Like I know his heartbroken. I'm going to see him
17:05
Speaker 4: actually on our funeral on Friday.
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Speaker 1: Maria, thank you for being with us and speaking on
17:14
Speaker 1: behalf of kat straight out to special guests joining us.
17:23
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensis Jacksonville State University. He is
17:28
Speaker 1: the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He
17:32
Speaker 1: is a star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joe
17:35
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is a death
17:39
Speaker 1: investigator with over ten thousand death investigations under his belt
17:44
Speaker 1: and counting. Jo Scott, thank you for being with us tonight.
17:48
Speaker 1: This reminds me very much of what was done to
17:53
Speaker 1: at least two of the victims in the Idaho Sleighs,
17:56
Speaker 1: where the females face is are horribly disfigured. Did you
18:03
Speaker 1: know Joe Scott that before he says it's party time,
18:09
Speaker 1: did you hear that? Did you know that that may
18:11
Speaker 1: it be part of your death investigation. But this guy
18:13
Speaker 1: says it's party time and tapes himself on recording a
18:17
Speaker 1: seven hour recording of a torture murder session. What were
18:24
Speaker 1: the extent of Cat's injuries, Joe Scott.
18:28
Speaker 8: It's you know, the thing about it, Nancy, is when
18:30
Speaker 8: you're trying to take the measure of these kinds of
18:32
Speaker 8: injuries and the involvement that he had had in her life,
18:37
Speaker 8: just think about this. This is not something that happened
18:40
Speaker 8: just in that seven hour period. Okay, So you've got
18:43
Speaker 8: injuries that are dating back sometime and you have this layering,
18:47
Speaker 8: and that's one of the difficulties I think are one
18:49
Speaker 8: of the complexities of trying to interpret these injuries. But
18:54
Speaker 8: you know, with all of these injuries relative to like
18:58
Speaker 8: the ligature marks around her neck, you think about the
19:02
Speaker 8: insults to her wrist and her ankles that goes to
19:05
Speaker 8: restraint and these contusions that are associated with just being
19:11
Speaker 8: absolutely obliterated a slammed blunt force injury over and over
19:17
Speaker 8: and over and over again. And this is something in
19:20
Speaker 8: the short term she had to endure for that period
19:23
Speaker 8: of time. Here's one other kind of insight. And this
19:27
Speaker 8: dates back from many years ago. I worked a serial
19:30
Speaker 8: killer that loved, absolutely loved to bring women to the
19:34
Speaker 8: point of death and then he would release the ligature
19:38
Speaker 8: at the last moment and they would regain consciousness, they
19:41
Speaker 8: could breathe again. This smacks of this. I'm not saying
19:45
Speaker 8: it's a serialized event. However, it goes to this issue
19:48
Speaker 8: of torture, because can you imagine, just for a second,
19:52
Speaker 8: everybody out there, if you've ever lost your breath, you've
19:55
Speaker 8: ever been punched in the stomach, you can't breathe, and
19:58
Speaker 8: you can't catch your breath, and then all of a
20:00
Speaker 8: sudden it comes back and you can This happened to
20:03
Speaker 8: her repeated numbers of time. Can you imagine? Can you
20:09
Speaker 8: imagine the horror and the terror that this poor woman
20:12
Speaker 8: had to live for is live through and endure not
20:15
Speaker 8: just in the short term, but Nancy, in the weeks,
20:18
Speaker 8: the months, maybe even the years leading up.
20:21
Speaker 1: To this, Scott, have you ever studied cases where there
20:26
Speaker 1: is an uncreation? In uncreation, the intentional removing of your
20:33
Speaker 1: own or someone else's eyes. There are all sorts of
20:37
Speaker 1: psychological and psychiatric implications of of that. But the first
20:41
Speaker 1: time I encounter that was of course in inner City Atlanta,
20:45
Speaker 1: and of course a murder case where the perp gouged
20:48
Speaker 1: the eyes out of the female victim. And I didn't
20:54
Speaker 1: know what that meant psychologically, right, but I knew it
20:58
Speaker 1: was horrendous. That's when I first learned in uncreation. And
21:01
Speaker 1: I find it very a very disturbing aspect of this case.
21:05
Speaker 1: This guy no self harm at all. It was all
21:09
Speaker 1: about torturing, disfiguring her, even trying to gouge her eyes out.
21:16
Speaker 8: Yeah, and you have to keep in mind, Nancy, with
21:18
Speaker 8: the gouging of the eyes that you have mentioned in uncleation,
21:23
Speaker 8: this is not though people. I'm sure the people will say,
21:26
Speaker 8: well you will die, that you can die for that
21:29
Speaker 8: from that, But this is not like a gunshot woman
21:31
Speaker 8: of the head, Nancy. This is a long, languishing kind
21:33
Speaker 8: of thing. And this goes to an entirely to a
21:37
Speaker 8: separate area here where we think about disfigurement, we think
21:41
Speaker 8: about face covering. How many times have you and I
21:43
Speaker 8: over the years talked about face covering when it comes
21:46
Speaker 8: to you know, these kind of familial events. And it
21:48
Speaker 8: also goes to something else, this idea of I'm going
21:53
Speaker 8: to break you down to the point where you're going
21:56
Speaker 8: to be completely helpless. I mean all of us that
21:59
Speaker 8: are are blessed enough to be sighted, right, we don't
22:03
Speaker 8: think about you know, every day our senses. You know
22:06
Speaker 8: where we're seeing things, we're reacting to things. If you
22:09
Speaker 8: can rob if you can rob of an individual of that,
22:14
Speaker 8: of that, that's the ultimate. Humiliation is also a torture tool,
22:18
Speaker 8: and that speaks to this guy. He's trying to disfigure her,
22:22
Speaker 8: He's trying to debilitate her, and of course what does
22:26
Speaker 8: it wind up in a torture related homicide.
22:29
Speaker 9: Kaylee Gonsolves had already moved out of the King Roade home,
22:32
Speaker 9: but returned to show her best friend Maddie her new
22:35
Speaker 9: range rover. An officer on scene described her face as disfigured.
22:39
Speaker 9: Kaylee's fatal injuries included a left lung laceration, a liver laceration,
22:44
Speaker 9: two subdural bleeds, and a stab behind her clavicle which
22:48
Speaker 9: cut hers of clavian vein and artery. She had signs
22:51
Speaker 9: of sharp force injuries and blunt force injuries, and was
22:55
Speaker 9: the only victim to suffer asphyxia injuries.
22:58
Speaker 10: Kaylee Gonsolvez. We stabbed thirty four times. Her facial structure
23:02
Speaker 10: was extremely damaged, leaving her unrecognizable. Due to the severity
23:06
Speaker 10: of the stab wounds. She was identified by methods other
23:09
Speaker 10: than simple visual recognition. Besides defensive marks on her arms.
23:14
Speaker 10: Kaylee had a broken nose to brain bleeds and a
23:17
Speaker 10: stab behind her clavicle which severed the subclavian vein and artery.
23:22
Speaker 1: Justcott both KILLI Gonsolvis and another female victim I believe
23:28
Speaker 1: Xana was. They were both horribly, horribly facially disfigured. In fact,
23:37
Speaker 1: Kelly had her teeth stabbed out. You know what, I'm
23:41
Speaker 1: asking the wrong person. As great of a death investigator
23:44
Speaker 1: as you are, I need a shrink. Doctor Sherry Schwartz
23:48
Speaker 1: is joining US forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation and
23:53
Speaker 1: victim at at panther Amitigation dot Com. She's the author
23:57
Speaker 1: of and This is Significant Behavior and the One I
24:02
Speaker 1: like the best, where law in psychology intersect issues in
24:07
Speaker 1: legal psychology. Docter Sherry Schwartz the disfigurement of the female
24:15
Speaker 1: victim in Kat's case. He beat her horribly all over
24:20
Speaker 1: her body, but specifically her face and tried to gouge
24:23
Speaker 1: her eyes out. What does that mean?
24:29
Speaker 11: Well, at its most basic, the eyes are seeing the truth, right,
24:33
Speaker 11: and they are full of judgment in his perception most likely.
24:37
Speaker 11: But it strikes me that all of the photos that
24:39
Speaker 11: I've seen of this young woman who's absolutely beautiful, her
24:42
Speaker 11: eyes are captivating, and it makes me wonder if he's
24:46
Speaker 11: interested in disfiguring her for pure sadism, which seems to
24:51
Speaker 11: be a major feature of this set of crimes, but
24:54
Speaker 11: also because he loved her eyes or other people complimented
24:58
Speaker 11: her eyes, and so he was going to take that
25:00
Speaker 11: away from her. This ups the brutality of the crime
25:05
Speaker 11: in my opinion. This makes him an extremely dangerous violent offender.
25:11
Speaker 11: The sexual nature of this crime. These are very rare
25:14
Speaker 11: individuals and it's a shame that nothing was done to
25:18
Speaker 11: prevent this.
25:19
Speaker 1: To Franz Borgarde joining US Professor Lsu veteran criminal defense attorney,
25:26
Speaker 1: I assume that you're going to argue some type of
25:32
Speaker 1: mental defense, but let me advise you at the get go,
25:38
Speaker 1: he was on prescription drugs. I don't know if he
25:41
Speaker 1: was really prescribed drugs, but he had popped several of them,
25:44
Speaker 1: and let's just start with the knowledge that voluntary use
25:49
Speaker 1: of drugs or alcohol is not a defense. Plus, he
25:54
Speaker 1: has got a horrible right. You need to hear this
25:57
Speaker 1: before you comment. Franz Franza joining US investigative reporter CBS
26:04
Speaker 1: News Chicago, Sabrina, what is his track record? What does
26:10
Speaker 1: his rap sheet reveal?
26:13
Speaker 6: Well?
26:13
Speaker 7: Aside from this felony arrest warrant that was issued after
26:16
Speaker 7: Kat went to the hospital after running out of her
26:19
Speaker 7: own home and only being able to find help by
26:22
Speaker 7: getting in touch with a neighbor that eventually called nine
26:24
Speaker 7: to one one, that warrant was out for his arrest,
26:27
Speaker 7: but he also had three orders of protection that were
26:31
Speaker 7: issued against him, one of them possibly by a family member,
26:34
Speaker 7: but all three by different people. So officers knew that
26:39
Speaker 7: there was a concern about this person. They were warned
26:42
Speaker 7: multiple times, and then, of course now he was taken
26:45
Speaker 7: into custody after this most recent, most gruesome crime. But
26:49
Speaker 7: they were completely aware of his background when Kat went
26:52
Speaker 7: to them, and then of course when he was eventually arrested.
26:56
Speaker 1: It's my understanding that the alleged purp of course, he
27:01
Speaker 1: is innocent until proven guilty. That goes without saying. But
27:04
Speaker 1: let me stress it again. He had in the past
27:09
Speaker 1: attacked a former wife, family members, and many others. They
27:15
Speaker 1: had all taken out tpo's temporary protection orders against him,
27:19
Speaker 1: and yet there he was sticking his foot in her
27:23
Speaker 1: kitchen window, in other words, getting in her house. Do
27:27
Speaker 1: we have any idea how many protection orders had been
27:31
Speaker 1: filed against him.
27:35
Speaker 7: We know three from three different people, which creates, in
27:40
Speaker 7: our eyes, a trend which is worth paying attention to,
27:43
Speaker 7: especially when somebody's going to the hospital and filing a
27:46
Speaker 7: felony complaint against somebody saying, as you mentioned earlier on
27:52
Speaker 7: tape in her tape testimony, that she thought that her
27:56
Speaker 7: ex boyfriend was going to come back and kill her.
28:00
Speaker 7: In that first incident. She was asked in her testimony
28:05
Speaker 7: to write a suicide note, which she actually started to
28:10
Speaker 7: write based on what we're seeing from court documents, before
28:13
Speaker 7: she was able to get out of the house, the
28:15
Speaker 7: same house that her twelve year old son was sleeping,
28:19
Speaker 7: and she tried to wake him up while this attack
28:22
Speaker 7: was happening, was unsuccessful, and then eventually ran out of
28:25
Speaker 7: the house to seek help from a neighbor. So all
28:28
Speaker 7: of these things combined should have raised these huge alarm bells,
28:33
Speaker 7: and it just adds to how tragic this case is.
28:35
Speaker 1: Nat Motkey faced numerous, numerous, let me say, brushes with
28:44
Speaker 1: the law, several family members, even an ex wife another
28:49
Speaker 1: ex partner had taken out orders of protection against him.
28:53
Speaker 1: He at the time of Cat's murder, he had an
28:57
Speaker 1: active wornant out for a domestic battery against her the
29:01
Speaker 1: previous month. Yet there he was walking free. Okay, hold on, Franz,
29:08
Speaker 1: I'm hearing in my ear. We are now being joined
29:10
Speaker 1: again by Marie Pereira, domestic violence expert, certified advocate and
29:17
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor and registered nurse. Marie, thank
29:23
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Does it ever end? How
29:27
Speaker 1: many protective orders do we need to take out on
29:31
Speaker 1: one walking crime wave? And now this beautiful mother is
29:36
Speaker 1: dead at her son was at home during one of
29:40
Speaker 1: the attacks where he tried to force her to write
29:42
Speaker 1: her own suicide. Note it's incomprehensible.
29:48
Speaker 12: I think it's disgusting given all the facts that you
29:52
Speaker 12: provided that we didn't really have, Nancy, so thank.
29:55
Speaker 5: You for that.
29:56
Speaker 12: The police were well aware of the urgency of the situation.
30:00
Speaker 12: So when front said earlier it was a triage, even
30:04
Speaker 12: if it was a triage. She should have been at
30:06
Speaker 12: the top because of all you just described here, the
30:11
Speaker 12: prior orders from other people, the fact that he had
30:15
Speaker 12: her try to write a suicide note, the extent of
30:18
Speaker 12: her injuries, the fact that they didn't search for him,
30:22
Speaker 12: and their claiming they went to.
30:23
Speaker 5: Look for him forty times.
30:25
Speaker 12: How about you give her a panic button?
30:29
Speaker 3: All right?
30:30
Speaker 12: I understand they have other people who are being threatened
30:33
Speaker 12: domestic violence. It's all about control, desperation on the part
30:39
Speaker 12: of the abuser, and they can't be everywhere at the
30:42
Speaker 12: same time. But I've had a situation like that in
30:46
Speaker 12: my personal life. It wasn't me, but it was a
30:48
Speaker 12: very close family member who was being taunted by someone
30:52
Speaker 12: who heard her, stole her car, threatened to kill her.
30:56
Speaker 12: And yes, they can't be everywhere, but they gave her
30:58
Speaker 12: a panic button.
31:00
Speaker 5: She lived with me, I had a panic button because
31:03
Speaker 5: we knew he'd be back. How about a panic button? People?
31:07
Speaker 1: You know what? Tell Marie? Tell it. I remember the
31:12
Speaker 1: first time. This is when I was a brand new prosecutor.
31:15
Speaker 1: This would have been in about oh gosh, around the
31:20
Speaker 1: time of the Olympics in Atlanta, and we were so
31:23
Speaker 1: proud because we got funding from Bell South to give
31:27
Speaker 1: domestic violence victims a cell phone, and at that time
31:31
Speaker 1: they're about this big. I mean they look like a
31:33
Speaker 1: walkie talkie and we were so happy. And at the
31:38
Speaker 1: Battered Women's Center where I volunteered at night, we could
31:41
Speaker 1: give them to the women to call nine one one.
31:45
Speaker 1: But your idea is much better, like the help me.
31:50
Speaker 1: I'm falling and I can't get up. But what's wrong
31:53
Speaker 1: with it?
31:55
Speaker 5: Wasn't an idea, Marie.
31:57
Speaker 1: I'm sick.
31:59
Speaker 5: It happened. I was home, my family member was home.
32:03
Speaker 12: We knew he was coming back the moment we heard
32:06
Speaker 12: a noise in the driveway. We were all scared. Right,
32:10
Speaker 12: depress the panic button. It's that simple. They gave it
32:14
Speaker 12: to us.
32:15
Speaker 4: This was in Franklin Square, New York.
32:18
Speaker 5: A few years ago. They caught him.
32:20
Speaker 12: He tried to run away, but by the time he
32:23
Speaker 12: ran away, they caught him and we had the panic button.
32:27
Speaker 5: If she had one. All of what happened took seven hours.
32:32
Speaker 12: It is disgusting that something like this happened in twenty
32:37
Speaker 12: twenty six.
32:38
Speaker 1: You know another thing, Maria Perira, Maria joining us tonight
32:41
Speaker 1: out of LA domestic violence expert she's a lawyer, a
32:46
Speaker 1: former prosecutor, and a registered nurse. You know another thing
32:50
Speaker 1: I hate is that we call it domestic abyse like
32:55
Speaker 1: it's warming, CAZy, like a hallmark. Maybe when I think
32:57
Speaker 1: of domestic, I think of domicome, which, as you know
33:00
Speaker 1: as a lawyer, is your home, where you live. It
33:04
Speaker 1: makes you think good smells in the kitchen and the
33:06
Speaker 1: family at the supper table. It's really putting perfume on
33:10
Speaker 1: the pig seven hours Marie.
33:14
Speaker 12: And you know what, even if they had served him
33:16
Speaker 12: with the order of protection, he probably would not have
33:19
Speaker 12: been kept in prison.
33:20
Speaker 5: They probably would have released him in order of protection.
33:23
Speaker 12: Nancy works when the person gives a damn about their
33:26
Speaker 12: own life. But when they don't care, it's not a
33:29
Speaker 12: deterrence because they don't give a damn about what happens
33:31
Speaker 12: to them. So he out her eyes out. You know why,
33:34
Speaker 12: she found herself another man. She moved on, And that's
33:37
Speaker 12: the most dangerous time for victims, when they decide they've add.
33:41
Speaker 5: Enough look at him, look at her. Her new man
33:44
Speaker 5: was probably much flier than him, and he knew that
33:47
Speaker 5: it was it.
33:48
Speaker 12: The jig was up, the threats, the everything she was
33:51
Speaker 12: leaving him, and that's what happened. This is why the
33:54
Speaker 12: police should have given her a panic button, so the
33:58
Speaker 12: moment that loser stepped in her house, they would have
34:01
Speaker 12: pulled up and protected her.
34:03
Speaker 5: It was that easy, Okay, Barts.
34:06
Speaker 1: I don't know how you're gonna follow Marie Pereira, but
34:10
Speaker 1: have at it, and I will just give you a
34:12
Speaker 1: gimme at the get go. These are allegations, and he
34:15
Speaker 1: remains innocent until he is proven guilty before a court
34:19
Speaker 1: of law and a jury off his peers. But another
34:23
Speaker 1: caveat Borgarts is that he has the presumption of innocence
34:29
Speaker 1: the rest of that sentence unless and until the state
34:33
Speaker 1: pierces that presumption with evidence proving him guilty beyond a
34:37
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. Okay, So that presumption can be pierced, and
34:41
Speaker 1: I predict it will be pierced, So have at it.
34:46
Speaker 6: So I would lean into the fact that he did it,
34:49
Speaker 6: that he had a mental health issue, and that, as
34:51
Speaker 6: Maurice suggested strongly, the system failed not only her but him.
34:56
Speaker 6: He needed help, He needed assistance, he never got it.
34:59
Speaker 6: He snapped and killed her. Now that's assuming he lets
35:02
Speaker 6: me use that defense, Nancy. He can say I'm not
35:05
Speaker 6: hitting that.
35:07
Speaker 5: Did you just say snap?
35:08
Speaker 1: Let me see Bornhart. Did you say death is a show?
35:13
Speaker 1: That's a show on oxygen? Snap? I snap? Snap is
35:17
Speaker 1: not a defense. Okay, don't get up in front of
35:20
Speaker 1: a jury. I'm just trying to help you out here
35:22
Speaker 1: and say they snap because snap is not a defense.
35:25
Speaker 1: And even if it was, he taped it for seven hours.
35:29
Speaker 1: How is that a snap.
35:31
Speaker 6: I'm not saying it's gonna work. I'm gonna say that
35:34
Speaker 6: if I can, if I have the mental health, if
35:36
Speaker 6: I have the mental health argument, I'm gonna lean into
35:39
Speaker 6: anything I can lean into to get this guy a
35:41
Speaker 6: lesser conviction, which is his saving grace. We can agree
35:44
Speaker 6: to disagree on the defense, but this guy's win, if
35:48
Speaker 6: there is any kind of win at all for this guy,
35:51
Speaker 6: is something lesser than the top charge.
35:53
Speaker 1: Okay, first degree murder, three counts, AG crim sex assault,
35:59
Speaker 1: just off the top of my head, wild guess Chicago
36:04
Speaker 1: does not have the death penalty, just wild crazy guests.
36:09
Speaker 1: So the most he's ever going to get is life
36:11
Speaker 1: behind bars. Yet you think you can get him a
36:14
Speaker 1: lesser offense based on what he grabbed somebody else's prescription
36:19
Speaker 1: meds and gulped him down.
36:23
Speaker 6: I think we've already discussed that he has a mental
36:25
Speaker 6: health history. I think we've already discussed that the system
36:28
Speaker 6: failed her, that the system failed her and failed him.
36:32
Speaker 6: That would be the defense. I'm not saying it's gonna work,
36:35
Speaker 6: but I don't want to choose the.
36:37
Speaker 1: Cards he failed. He has no known mental you know what,
36:41
Speaker 1: Let's go to Sabrina. Sabrina Franza is joining US investigator
36:47
Speaker 1: reporter CBS News. All I know is he gulped down
36:50
Speaker 1: a bunch appeals. I know nothing about a mental health defense.
36:55
Speaker 7: Actually, court documents don't really say anything about a mental
36:57
Speaker 7: health issue here. What it does talk about it is
37:00
Speaker 7: that he appeared intoxicated when he was found by police
37:03
Speaker 7: after they showed up to Kat's home, and that he
37:07
Speaker 7: claimed that he had ingested two other types of drugs
37:11
Speaker 7: pills that it's unclear whether or not he should have
37:14
Speaker 7: had or not, and then he was taken to the
37:16
Speaker 7: hospital for an evaluation. After that, they don't say anything
37:19
Speaker 7: about his condition, but he was released from the hospital
37:22
Speaker 7: and then at that point was officially taken into custody
37:24
Speaker 7: and then later charge. But based on our reading of
37:27
Speaker 7: court documents, it does not mention anything about any sort
37:30
Speaker 7: of mental health history.
37:31
Speaker 1: Guys, you heard it from Sabrina Franza joining CBS. Okay,
37:36
Speaker 1: Franz Borkhart, there you go. You tried to slip that
37:39
Speaker 1: in on me that we've talked about us mental health defense.
37:43
Speaker 1: No we didn't. You did.
37:46
Speaker 6: I'm certainly going to have him evaluated, and shocker, he's
37:49
Speaker 6: going to have a mental health issue.
37:52
Speaker 1: He may be the most.
37:53
Speaker 6: Violent human being in the world, but I would bet,
37:56
Speaker 6: I would bet dollars to donuts Nancy that he has
37:59
Speaker 6: a mental health issue.
38:01
Speaker 1: I just bet you would. Dave mac what have I
38:04
Speaker 1: missed regarding her injuries? Dave Matt, Crime Story's investigative reporter,
38:08
Speaker 1: What have I missed? Because I want to circle back
38:10
Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan on these injuries.
38:13
Speaker 13: On the tape, you could hear her screaming and pleading
38:17
Speaker 13: for Mikey to not to get off of her and
38:19
Speaker 13: to not put handcuffs on her. So we're going to
38:21
Speaker 13: have injuries around the risk the assault escalated as he
38:25
Speaker 13: used duct tape to restrain Garbick. There might be markings
38:29
Speaker 13: from that sexually assaulted during the entire attack. The recording
38:34
Speaker 13: captured everything Nancy, and it was shocking beyond the pale
38:42
Speaker 13: to hear her pleading for her life, the injuries that
38:46
Speaker 13: Joe Scott Morgan can break down leading up to and
38:49
Speaker 13: including Nancy her death.
38:52
Speaker 1: Froz Borghart, how are you going to keep that tape
38:57
Speaker 1: out of evidence? Because you actually hear her take her
39:02
Speaker 1: last breaths, she's gasping.
39:08
Speaker 6: I don't think that. I don't think I can keep
39:10
Speaker 6: the tape out of evidence, that's the problem, any better
39:12
Speaker 6: than I can keep the prior incident with her out.
39:15
Speaker 6: I might be able to keep his prior non victim
39:19
Speaker 6: related incidents with other family members out, but I think
39:22
Speaker 6: the tape comes in, and if I'm asked how I'm
39:25
Speaker 6: going to address it is I'm leaning into the fact
39:27
Speaker 6: that this is clearly the antics and actions of a sick,
39:32
Speaker 6: mentally ill human being.
39:34
Speaker 1: Sick I agree with, but not mentally ill doctor Sherry Schwartz.
39:38
Speaker 1: Why did he tape seven hours of torture, sex, assault,
39:46
Speaker 1: beating and murdering cat? Why tape it and keep it
39:50
Speaker 1: in his pocket next to his heart?
39:53
Speaker 11: Fancy? The only logical explanation for that is that he
39:57
Speaker 11: wanted to revisit the pain and suffering that he had
39:59
Speaker 11: caught somebody that he would probably proclaim to have loved
40:04
Speaker 11: at least at some point in his life. The reason
40:09
Speaker 11: that individuals memorialize and then keep trophies of their violent
40:14
Speaker 11: crimes is because they want evidence that it happened, even
40:18
Speaker 11: though it's counter to their best legal interest. Arguably, psychologically,
40:22
Speaker 11: this shows someone who is very dangerous and, as you
40:28
Speaker 11: pointed out, disturbed, but not necessarily mentally ill, especially not
40:32
Speaker 11: in a mitigating way. So I think in this situation
40:35
Speaker 11: he wanted to be able to look over his handiwork
40:38
Speaker 11: and pat himself on the back.
40:41
Speaker 1: What do you make of from Borkart's claim a mental illness?
40:45
Speaker 1: I mean he knew enough to outsmart the police for
40:48
Speaker 1: over a month. To doctor Sherry Schwartz, that's Borcarts again,
40:52
Speaker 1: as handsome as he is. What do you make of
40:55
Speaker 1: Boardshart's claims of mental illness? What mental illness?
41:00
Speaker 11: While he clearly behaved in a way that is not normal,
41:05
Speaker 11: right that anybody can see that you don't need a
41:07
Speaker 11: degree in psychology. The bottom line here is that this
41:10
Speaker 11: is not Here's how I'll put it, cognitive distortions fueled
41:14
Speaker 11: by what appears to be his narcissistic rage are not
41:17
Speaker 11: the same as psychosis and delusional beliefs based on psychosis.
41:22
Speaker 11: This is somebody who was able to plan, carry out attacks,
41:25
Speaker 11: elude capture by the police, break into her home again,
41:31
Speaker 11: and torture and sexually assault her on recording over a
41:36
Speaker 11: period of seven hours. This is not somebody who is
41:40
Speaker 11: seriously mentally ill. I think we get that perception because
41:44
Speaker 11: of the brutality of the behavior and the shocking aspects
41:48
Speaker 11: of the behavior. But this is somebody whose mental health
41:51
Speaker 11: profile is likely to show not very mitigating personality disorders,
41:56
Speaker 11: including his history of antisocial behavior.
42:00
Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan, if you would please capsulize what was
42:04
Speaker 1: done to this nurse, this mother of a twelve year
42:09
Speaker 1: old little boy who lived with her. He was a
42:12
Speaker 1: mama's boy. She was already working to save money for
42:16
Speaker 1: his college. He's twelve years old. Three jobs to Scott,
42:20
Speaker 1: three jobs to support that boy.
42:25
Speaker 8: I got to tell you, Nancy, one of the things
42:27
Speaker 8: that really in going to Doc's comment just a second ago,
42:31
Speaker 8: it seems as though that in all cases where we
42:36
Speaker 8: have this over the top brutality, doesn't it seem that
42:39
Speaker 8: the reaction of the courts, and particularly to our colleagues
42:42
Speaker 8: and friends in the defense community, is that the more
42:45
Speaker 8: egregious the event is, it equates to some kind of
42:50
Speaker 8: excuse for the level of brutality. Right, So the more
42:54
Speaker 8: brutal you are, that's indicative of the idea that, well,
42:58
Speaker 8: you've got a album here that is some kind of
43:02
Speaker 8: psychopathology some people, and Nancy are just absolutely evil. Okay,
43:08
Speaker 8: there's no other way to explain it. When you think
43:10
Speaker 8: about her injuries, and it's not just the injuries themselves,
43:14
Speaker 8: and I really want to emphasize this, it's about the
43:17
Speaker 8: period of time that elapsed and the idea, you know,
43:23
Speaker 8: this is higher thinking because he's going through this and
43:27
Speaker 8: all the while, you know, giving her her life and
43:30
Speaker 8: then taking it back, giving her life and taken back.
43:33
Speaker 8: I would imagine at some point, Tom, you get to
43:35
Speaker 8: the point where you've been brutalized like she was by bludgeoning,
43:39
Speaker 8: by this asphixial event with the ligature that's wrapped around
43:42
Speaker 8: your neck is probably loosened, and then I'm going to
43:45
Speaker 8: kill you. I'm going to continue to you know, commit
43:49
Speaker 8: sexual assault, these sorts of things, and you know the
43:52
Speaker 8: idea of having her write this note out you just
43:56
Speaker 8: think about that and couple that with all of this
43:59
Speaker 8: trunt that, by the way, when this goes to court,
44:03
Speaker 8: it'll be on display for everybody to see. They'll see
44:06
Speaker 8: what he did to this beautiful woman. They'll see the
44:10
Speaker 8: layers of hemorrhage that she had in her neck, They'll
44:13
Speaker 8: see the scott.
44:15
Speaker 1: I wish that I could rely on that, but I
44:18
Speaker 1: saw what happened with oj Simpson and that Jerry saw
44:23
Speaker 1: all of the beatings and pictures of them that Nicole
44:28
Speaker 1: Brown suffered. They saw it, and they still let him walk.
44:34
Speaker 1: Final word to you, Marie Pereira, I'm disgusted as well.
44:40
Speaker 5: And order of protection is nothing but a piece of paper.
44:43
Speaker 12: If you give it to someone who doesn't give a
44:45
Speaker 12: damn about going to prison someone who was committing suicide
44:49
Speaker 12: after the act, right, it doesn't mean a thing, just
44:52
Speaker 12: a piece of paper. Order of protections cannot save lives,
44:55
Speaker 12: Police save lives. Panic buttons save lives because that guy
44:59
Speaker 12: did can.
45:00
Speaker 5: Give a damn about his life. And that's nothing wrong
45:02
Speaker 5: with him. Mentally, Stop with the oh, he was mentally ill.
45:05
Speaker 5: He was jealous, he was a loser, she was leaving him.
45:08
Speaker 5: It's that's simple.
45:09
Speaker 12: So he cut up her face, gout out her eyes
45:12
Speaker 12: so that nobody else would get her. And he had
45:14
Speaker 12: planned to kill himself anyway, and I'm sorry to say it.
45:18
Speaker 12: Sorry it didn't work.
45:20
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything regarding Kat's
45:24
Speaker 1: brutal murder, please call Schomberg PD eight four seven eight
45:29
Speaker 1: eight two three five three four. We remember American hero
45:34
Speaker 1: Deputy Sheriff Brett Harris, Riverside County Sheriffs, just twenty six,
45:39
Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty, leaving behind his young
45:43
Speaker 1: and beautiful wife, Maria. American hero Sheriff Brett Harris. Thank
45:50
Speaker 1: you to our guest, but especially to you Nancy Gray.
45:53
Speaker 1: Signing off for the night, but I'll see tomorrow night,
45:55
Speaker 1: and until then, good night,