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Hollywood superstar Ashton Kutcher fingerprints at murder scene · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I observed quite a large
0:12
Speaker 1: amount of blood and not too short distance was Ashley's body.
0:22
Speaker 1: A lot of anger, a lot of rage. Somebody had
0:26
Speaker 1: isolated Ashley ellerin the killer and was very, very angry
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Speaker 1: when he did it. It just was a very bad scene,
0:35
Speaker 1: probably one of the worst I've seen. But what surprised
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Speaker 1: this seasoned investigator even more was what he didn't see
0:44
Speaker 1: any evidence that would point to a killer. You know,
0:47
Speaker 1: we were just looking for any type of direction or
0:50
Speaker 1: clues that would to lead to a suspect. It was
0:55
Speaker 1: Ashley's friends that gave detectives that first and only clue,
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Speaker 1: pointing them to a young man Ashley had met in
1:02
Speaker 1: the neighborhood months earlier. The information we have is that
1:06
Speaker 1: he introduced himself as a heating and airgation. How does
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Speaker 1: all of this relate to Hollywood star Ashton Kutcher? I,
1:15
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being
1:17
Speaker 1: with us with me an all star panel starting with
1:21
Speaker 1: Marjorie Hernandez, Justice editor at US Weekly and Radar Online
1:25
Speaker 1: dot Com. Doctor Ryan Fuller, clinical psychologist and director of
1:30
Speaker 1: New York Behavioral Health, Ashley Wilcot judge lawyer. You can
1:34
Speaker 1: find her at Ashley Wilcott dot com and Vincent Hill,
1:37
Speaker 1: cop turned PI and author of playbook to a Murder
1:42
Speaker 1: on Amazon. First to you, Marjorie Hernandez, thanks so much
1:46
Speaker 1: for being with us. Ashton Kutcher, the star of that
1:49
Speaker 1: seventies show and so many other major, major hits, says
1:54
Speaker 1: he quote screwed up and was quote freaking out when
2:00
Speaker 1: the body of this gorgeous young woman was found in
2:04
Speaker 1: her apartment dead. Let me first start with the crime,
2:08
Speaker 1: saying Marjorie Hernandez, what do we know? Well, Ashley was
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Speaker 1: found stabbed forty seven times, literally from her head to toe,
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Speaker 1: and the wounds were so terrible and horrendous that she
2:22
Speaker 1: was almost decapitated. And the next day her roommate found
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Speaker 1: her lying on the ground in her own blah blood.
2:32
Speaker 1: Who is Ashley Ellern? This is what we know. Take
2:36
Speaker 1: listen to my friend Jesse Palmer. Ashley Ellern was a
2:39
Speaker 1: happy team with a bright future. She grew up in
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Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley town of Los Altos, California. Daily Mail
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Speaker 1: TV has exclusively obtained photos from her days in high school.
2:50
Speaker 1: Ashley was a member of the swimming team and grinned
2:52
Speaker 1: from ear to ear when posing with the water polo team.
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Speaker 1: She was class council treasurer during her junior year. In
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Speaker 1: one year photo, the Bookish team wears glasses, it's captioned flashback,
3:04
Speaker 1: Ashley Ellern takes time out of her hectic schedule to
3:07
Speaker 1: talk with a friend during brunch. Here she displays a
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Speaker 1: radiant smile with her arms draped around classmates. A few
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Speaker 1: years later, she met actor Ashton Kutcher. It's okay, I
3:18
Speaker 1: know what to do. He was the sexy goofball on
3:21
Speaker 1: that seventy show and his star was on the rise.
3:24
Speaker 1: Ashley was twenty two and studying fashion. In February of
3:27
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, she was getting ready for a
3:29
Speaker 1: date with Kutcher when cops say broke into her home
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Speaker 1: and stabbed her forty seven times. You're hearing our friend,
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Speaker 1: Jesse Palmer Aunt Daily Mail TV. This young woman, Ashley Ellern,
3:40
Speaker 1: just twenty two years old, stabbed nearly fifty times in
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Speaker 1: her own home to doctor Ryan Fuller, clinical psychologist. Doctor Fuller,
3:49
Speaker 1: thank you for being what thus got a question for you?
3:52
Speaker 1: In my world of criminal law, it's very significant that
3:56
Speaker 1: a victim an unarmed victim is stab forty seven times.
4:02
Speaker 1: What does it mean in the world of psychology, Well,
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Speaker 1: the amount of time it takes and the gruesome just
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Speaker 1: experience means that the person you know taking part in
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Speaker 1: that act is not experiencing empathy or fear or discussed
4:16
Speaker 1: and you know, something must be overwhelming the person like
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Speaker 1: rage or as I said, they just really their mingdala
4:24
Speaker 1: is not firing in a way, but they're experiencing the
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Speaker 1: thing that normally keep the rest of us from taking
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Speaker 1: those kinds of actions, the kind of morality that would
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Speaker 1: indicate through be incredible fear and disgust and horror, something
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Speaker 1: like that. You know. The other aspect in my mind,
4:38
Speaker 1: Ashu Willcott with me. You can find her at Ashu
4:40
Speaker 1: Wilcot dot com, is we have two choices. The killer
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Speaker 1: was either an intruder and you would expect to find
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Speaker 1: a broken window, a forced window, prime marks on the door,
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Speaker 1: some sort of intrusion, or it's someone she knows and
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Speaker 1: allows the home to me forty seven stab wounds. You know,
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Speaker 1: as you know, Ashley, I often call stabbings a sweetheart murder,
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Speaker 1: not that there is any love loss between the two,
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Speaker 1: but you are close up and intimate with your victim,
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Speaker 1: and to affect a death like this, a murder like this,
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Speaker 1: or any stabbing, you are within arm's reach or much closer.
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Speaker 1: I mean. Think of Jody Arius and her victim, Travis Alexander,
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Speaker 1: stabbed approximately twenty eight times and then shot in the head,
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Speaker 1: left naked in the shower stall. She was close up
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Speaker 1: and personal with him to affect the murder. Same thing here.
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Speaker 1: So you have the choice of an intruder or someone
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Speaker 1: she lets into the home. Tell me your thoughts on
5:48
Speaker 1: the mode of murder. Yeah, the mode of murder. To me,
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Speaker 1: I completely agree that it is. That's a crime of passion.
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Speaker 1: You do not see that number of brutal stab wounds,
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Speaker 1: almost decapitating her nancy unless it is a person that
6:01
Speaker 1: has entered her home with her consent, whether it's someone
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Speaker 1: she knew, or whether it's someone who's in a person
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Speaker 1: a position of trust that you might think, Oh, of
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Speaker 1: course I can let this person in because this is
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Speaker 1: what they do for a living, or this is someone
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Speaker 1: I can trust. Maybe they're doing work on the house.
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Speaker 1: Let's let them in. Yeah. You know what, when I
6:19
Speaker 1: say let them in, you're right, it doesn't necessarily mean
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Speaker 1: a boyfriend, a neighbor, a family, ir relative, into someone
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Speaker 1: related in some way. It could be just that. Now
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Speaker 1: take a listen to this. The body of twenty two
6:36
Speaker 1: year old Ashley Lord Ellerin was found by her roommate
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Speaker 1: early Thursday morning. Police see the stabbing happened Wednesday night.
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Speaker 1: I remember like it was yesterday. I entered the house.
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Speaker 1: There was two steps to the left here and Ashley
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Speaker 1: was laying across the two stairs, absolutely blue and covered
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Speaker 1: in blood. Of trauma just came over me. I thought
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Speaker 1: maybe the person was sold there, and I kind of
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Speaker 1: ran out and then came to the car and calling
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Speaker 1: from my cell phone. It still traumatizes me to this day.
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Speaker 1: Ashley Ellerin was just everybody's daughter, living life and having fun.
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Speaker 1: She winds up meeting somebody who's the wrong person and
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Speaker 1: lost her life over it. You're hearing our friend Maureen
7:29
Speaker 1: Marr at forty eight Hours over at CBS. But how
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Speaker 1: does Ashton cult your fit into this young girl's murder?
7:46
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Ashton Kutcher takes the stand
7:53
Speaker 1: in the Hollywood Ripper murder trial. The actor appears in
7:56
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles courtroom and testifies that on the night.
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Speaker 1: Ash Ellern was killed on February twenty first, two thousand
8:02
Speaker 1: and one. They had plans to get dinner or drinks
8:05
Speaker 1: and had spoken on the phone earlier in the evening,
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Speaker 1: but later on he tried her multiple times and she
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Speaker 1: didn't pick up, and when he came to her home,
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Speaker 1: nobody answered the door when he knocked, despite the fact
8:15
Speaker 1: that the lights were on inside. I thought it odd
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Speaker 1: the lights were all on. I didn't want to be
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Speaker 1: the guy looking through her window, Kutcher said, adding that
8:22
Speaker 1: the place looked a little bit of a mess. Then
8:24
Speaker 1: I saw what I thought was red wine on the carpet.
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Speaker 1: He thought it may be spilt wine from a party.
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Speaker 1: The next day, when he learned Ellerin had been murdered,
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Speaker 1: Kutcher testified that he remembered freaking out about having fingerprints
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Speaker 1: on her door knob after the murder, and that he
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Speaker 1: told the police everything he knew and was not involved
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Speaker 1: in the killing. The suspected killer's attorney joked, don't worry,
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Speaker 1: you're not a suspect. Ashton laughed and said thank you,
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Speaker 1: and ended his testimony. He took a deep breath and
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Speaker 1: walked out of the courtroom. Kutcher testified for about forty minutes.
8:53
Speaker 1: You're hearing your friends over a knees. Welcome back, everybody,
8:56
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Ashton Kusher on
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Speaker 1: the stand in a court of law in a murder case,
9:02
Speaker 1: a murder case that has now been linked to the
9:04
Speaker 1: murders of several other young women, and the alleged killer
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Speaker 1: now has the moniker Hollywood Ripper joining me. Vincent Hill,
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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcot, doctor Ryan Fuller, and Marjorie Hernandez, justice editor
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Speaker 1: at US Weekly and Radar Online dot Com. Marjorie explained
9:22
Speaker 1: to me how Ashton Kutcher is embroiled in a serial
9:26
Speaker 1: murder case. Ashton Kutcher was asked to testify about the
9:31
Speaker 1: events that happened that night that he was supposed to
9:34
Speaker 1: pick her up for a date, and he had called
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Speaker 1: her several times to try to set this date and
9:40
Speaker 1: when they when he finally tried to go to her home,
9:44
Speaker 1: she did not answer. And he did speak to authorities
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Speaker 1: and say that he tried to pick her up that date,
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Speaker 1: but she never answered her door. Vincent Hill, private investigator,
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Speaker 1: a former cop author of playbook to her Arder Kutcher
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Speaker 1: says he was quote freaking out because he knew his
10:06
Speaker 1: fingerprints were on the scene, specifically at the door, maybe
10:10
Speaker 1: even at the window where he looked in and saw
10:14
Speaker 1: what he thought was red wine all over the floor.
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Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, I would say that at the time that
10:20
Speaker 1: very likely made him a suspect. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I
10:24
Speaker 1: mean he's saying all the keywords. I called her. She
10:27
Speaker 1: didn't answer. I didn't want to be the guy at
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Speaker 1: the door, at the windows so late. And by the way,
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Speaker 1: my fingerprints maybe at the crime scene. It reminds me
10:36
Speaker 1: of Dolly Routier when she called ninety one one and said, hey,
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Speaker 1: I already touched a knife that was used to stab
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Speaker 1: my two sons. Did that? So Yes, Initially I believe
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Speaker 1: Ashton Kuscher was looked at as a suspect. Well, of
10:48
Speaker 1: course he was, and he has to know that. Guys,
10:52
Speaker 1: we are talking about Hollywood star, the star of the
10:55
Speaker 1: seventies show and so many other hits. Ashton Kutcher in
10:58
Speaker 1: a court of law, embroiled in a serial murder case.
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Speaker 1: This young girl, Ashley Ellern, really everybody's sweetheart, found brutally
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Speaker 1: stab dead there in Hollywood, her killer somehow picking up
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Speaker 1: the moniker Hollywood ripper. And I know that's got to
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Speaker 1: cut to the heart of every crime victims family involved
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Speaker 1: in this case when they hear the words Hollywood ripper.
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Speaker 1: You know, Ashley Wilcot, that that moniker, the name for
11:30
Speaker 1: the killer, Michael Garjuelo, has really stuck, and it's it's
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Speaker 1: just flows off the tongue of reporters. But you know
11:41
Speaker 1: when the family members of these young ladies all murdered
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Speaker 1: and attacked here that I mean, they have to think of,
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Speaker 1: for instance, Ashley Ellern literally being ripped apart with a knife. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: that's exactly I can't even imagine for these victims families
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Speaker 1: first of all, but second of all, the here a
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Speaker 1: moniker like that. But isn't it fitting? I mean, as
12:01
Speaker 1: hopeful as it sounds, it does bit because he is
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Speaker 1: the ripper And look at again the force and the
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Speaker 1: number of times he stabbed and everything he did to
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Speaker 1: that victim. That title fits the person who would do
12:12
Speaker 1: this type of crime. When I refer to him as
12:14
Speaker 1: a serial killer, I firmly believe that Ashley Ellern, tragically
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Speaker 1: is not this guy. Michael Gargiulo's only victim listener, It's
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Speaker 1: our belief at around eleven forty in the evening. He
12:29
Speaker 1: gained access into this window, which was open a few inches,
12:34
Speaker 1: and once he got inside there, he then opens the
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Speaker 1: front door and kind of stages it as an escape route,
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Speaker 1: proceeds into the bedroom where she's sleeping, and what awakes
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Speaker 1: her as a knife being plunged into her. He just
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Speaker 1: flat out stabbed her right She was stabbed multiple times
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Speaker 1: in her chest and shoulder and right arm, suffered several
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Speaker 1: wounds to both of her hands as she's grabbing this
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Speaker 1: knife as being plunged down upon her where those wounds
13:01
Speaker 1: were all required surgery. And at some point there's a
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Speaker 1: law in the action, so to speak. And she was
13:07
Speaker 1: able to get her feet up and kick him off
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Speaker 1: of her, and that's where he then took off running
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Speaker 1: and left the location. Did he say anything to her ever,
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, he said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that young woman,
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Speaker 1: Maria Bruno, She's not the only one. What about Trisha Pacci.
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Speaker 1: Tricia got home sometime after one am with keys in hand.
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Speaker 1: She went to the side of the house to let
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Speaker 1: herself in. She never made it. The next morning, Trisha's father,
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Speaker 1: Rick was going out to his van. I tried to
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Speaker 1: revive her. That is works really in your life when
13:48
Speaker 1: you kid pull somebody. Trisha's mother, Diane, was at work
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Speaker 1: and I just left work and jumped in the car
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Speaker 1: and came home, and I don't remember anything else. She
14:02
Speaker 1: had a lot of blood on her shirt or a blouse.
14:04
Speaker 1: Raceleyevich was the first uniformed police officer on the scene.
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Speaker 1: I was guessing she was stabbed numerous names. When I
14:12
Speaker 1: heard a lady screaming and I turned and look because
14:15
Speaker 1: I was still in the front yard, and the mother
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Speaker 1: has running towards Trish. I basically tackled her and I
14:20
Speaker 1: didn't want her to see Trish like this and remember
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Speaker 1: her daughter like that. While investigators were trying to secure
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Speaker 1: the scene, one young neighbor was paying close attention. Seventeen
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Speaker 1: year old Mike Garjiulo. You're hearing our friends at forty
14:35
Speaker 1: eight hours. That was Maureen Mark. This guy, Michael Gargiulo,
14:42
Speaker 1: is believed to have murdered at least ten women, including
14:46
Speaker 1: the two we just described, Maria Bruno and Trisha Pecaccio.
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Speaker 1: Back to special guests joining us, Marjorie Hernandez, Justice editor
14:55
Speaker 1: at US Weekly and Radar Online dot Com. You have
14:59
Speaker 1: been in the courtroom. Marjorie Hernandez described to all of
15:02
Speaker 1: us what's happening in court. Mister Garzulo normally is very
15:09
Speaker 1: involved and just watching the witnesses, and from time to
15:13
Speaker 1: time you would see mister Garzulo trying to speak to
15:16
Speaker 1: his defense attorneys next to him. Tell us about Ashton
15:19
Speaker 1: Kutner's testimony on the stand. Well, Ashton, I think his
15:23
Speaker 1: testimony was very important and because he was trying to
15:30
Speaker 1: prosecutors are trying to piece together a timeline of events
15:35
Speaker 1: of what happened the night Ashley was killed on February
15:39
Speaker 1: twenty first, and I think they did succeed in that
15:42
Speaker 1: with mister Cutcher's testimony. You know, prosecutors have called the
15:45
Speaker 1: murderers systematic slaughters of women, and they have described the defendant,
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Speaker 1: Michael Garzuelo as the quote boy next door killer. Well,
15:57
Speaker 1: that is certainly putting perfume on the pig when you
15:59
Speaker 1: think of a boy next door killer and ten bodies
16:03
Speaker 1: at the very least to Vincent Hill, why are they
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Speaker 1: referring to him as the boy next door? Yeah, Nancy
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Speaker 1: reminds me of Ted Bundy. He just had this charming look.
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Speaker 1: This guy not that I'm into guys. Is a very
16:21
Speaker 1: charming looking guy. He's very trusting and also nancy. He
16:25
Speaker 1: had a position where people would kind of trust. He
16:29
Speaker 1: was this air conditioned repair guy. So you know, who's
16:32
Speaker 1: not going to trust the air conditioned repair guy to
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Speaker 1: come into your home and fix things. But that makes
16:37
Speaker 1: him a prime suspect to be able to watch people,
16:40
Speaker 1: know when people are going to be home when he constructs.
16:43
Speaker 1: Take listen to our friend here finished him at CBS
16:45
Speaker 1: two LA methodical and systematic slaughter of women. Now gard Julo.
16:53
Speaker 1: They're sitting in the courtroom. At times he rubbed his
16:56
Speaker 1: hands together. Prosecutors say he grew up in suburban Chicago,
17:00
Speaker 1: laid on his high school football team, and later worked
17:02
Speaker 1: as an acy repairman and a plumber. They also say
17:05
Speaker 1: he was a husband and a father. The allege what
17:08
Speaker 1: nobody knew is that he was leading a double life.
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Speaker 1: His investigators are calling Garjulo a serial sexual thrill killer
17:15
Speaker 1: who allegedly stabbed and butchered his victims. He's charged with
17:19
Speaker 1: both murder and attempted murder in four different attacks, and
17:22
Speaker 1: all the cases they say the m was the same.
17:24
Speaker 1: Gardjulo's plan to kill was to first identify a target
17:30
Speaker 1: who lived near him, acquaint himself with that victim and
17:33
Speaker 1: her habits and routines, and then watch shadow stock and
17:40
Speaker 1: hunt down the victims relentlessly as part of his plan
17:43
Speaker 1: to kill. The trial goes on, and we will bring
17:46
Speaker 1: you the very latest from inside the courtroom Crime Stories
17:58
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Aaron Jackson Jr. Was among the youngest,
18:06
Speaker 1: only nine years old. Luby Jeter was fourteen, Timothy Hill thirteen,
18:12
Speaker 1: Patrick Baltazar eleven. For almost two years, the bodies have
18:16
Speaker 1: kept coming out of Atlanta's rivers and woods and a
18:19
Speaker 1: week after week police speak of sorrow and sympathy, but
18:22
Speaker 1: not a solution. He's just a tragedy harbor nightmare that
18:27
Speaker 1: we're going through. We're not in a position today to
18:30
Speaker 1: make an arrest. There are cases in history that have
18:33
Speaker 1: gone on much longer than this has. At Police Task
18:37
Speaker 1: Force Headquarters, there are twenty seven faces on the wall,
18:40
Speaker 1: twenty six murdered, one missing the killer. There was a
18:44
Speaker 1: handful of sketches. No one the same, No one's certain
18:47
Speaker 1: to be the person. Police can't answer food or why
18:51
Speaker 1: you're hearing from our friend James polk At NBC News.
18:54
Speaker 1: In the last days, we learned that the Atlantic child
18:58
Speaker 1: murderers investigation is set to be reopen. Here's Kristin Holloway
19:05
Speaker 1: at WSBTV. The community was in a state of panic
19:08
Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty one after someone
19:11
Speaker 1: murdered more than twenty children one by one. Mayor Keisha
19:15
Speaker 1: Land's Bottoms and police Chief Erica Shields, and I'll say
19:18
Speaker 1: a new push to re examine evidence in the case.
19:21
Speaker 1: But I think it's important that the families know that
19:24
Speaker 1: we continue to remember these children and we continue to
19:28
Speaker 1: do all we can do to provide them closure. Wayne
19:32
Speaker 1: Williams is convicted of killing two men in nineteen eighty one,
19:35
Speaker 1: but authorities believe he's responsible for some of the infamous
19:39
Speaker 1: child murderers. His attorney, land Whiteley said Friday, and not
19:43
Speaker 1: so fast there. The city is going in the GBI
19:47
Speaker 1: are going to retest any evidence. They need a third party.
19:53
Speaker 1: The hens are not clean. I'm convinced this case is
19:57
Speaker 1: based on political leading. Mayor Bottoms she wants the victims
20:01
Speaker 1: families to know the city hasn't forgotten about them, that
20:04
Speaker 1: these children still matter, and they matter. In nineteen seventy
20:10
Speaker 1: nine through nineteen eighty one, and they still matter to
20:12
Speaker 1: us in twenty nineteen, straight out to Crime online dot Com.
20:16
Speaker 1: Investigative reporter joining us, Lee Egan crime online dot Com
20:20
Speaker 1: where you can find this and all other breaking crime
20:23
Speaker 1: injustice news. Lee Egan. Let's start at the beginning. How
20:28
Speaker 1: many people were victims in the Atlanta child murdyers at
20:33
Speaker 1: least twenty five that were connected to possibly the same person,
20:39
Speaker 1: although during that time in Atlanta, in the Atlanta area
20:42
Speaker 1: metro area, there were over one hundred victims, but connected
20:48
Speaker 1: to someone that they can think is a serial killer
20:51
Speaker 1: targeting young children. At least twenty five were connected. You know,
20:56
Speaker 1: I want to talk about DNA because the case is
20:59
Speaker 1: being re open now. Many people believe that a total
21:03
Speaker 1: of twenty nine young children and young adults were murdered
21:08
Speaker 1: by one man, Wayne Williams. And this was a significant
21:13
Speaker 1: advancement in criminal justice because that was one of the
21:17
Speaker 1: very first cases that used fiber evidence. Fibers found on
21:22
Speaker 1: the bodies of the many many victims matched fiber evidence
21:27
Speaker 1: from for instance, Wayne Williams carpet in his home, Wayne
21:30
Speaker 1: Williams carpet in his car. Take a listen to atlantamir
21:34
Speaker 1: Kesha Lance at Bottoms. A lot has changed in our
21:37
Speaker 1: worlds since nineteen eighty one when there was a conviction
21:41
Speaker 1: for two of these murders, the conviction of Wayne Williams.
21:46
Speaker 1: What has changed is that we now know that DNA
21:50
Speaker 1: technology is much more advanced it did not exist in
21:55
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, that it would certainly be in order
22:00
Speaker 1: for us to now look once again at evidence that
22:04
Speaker 1: the City of Atlanta has in its possession, evidence that
22:08
Speaker 1: the GBI has in its possession, to once again take
22:12
Speaker 1: a fresh look at these cases and to determine once
22:17
Speaker 1: and for all if there's additional evidence that may be
22:20
Speaker 1: tested that may give some peace, to the extent that
22:27
Speaker 1: peace can be had in a situation like this. I
22:30
Speaker 1: want to go to doctor William Maroney, joining US Deputy
22:33
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner, Bay County, Michigan, author of America Narcan on
22:38
Speaker 1: Amazon Limited. Question, Doctor Moroney, how do you find fibers
22:43
Speaker 1: on a dead body? And many of these bodies had
22:48
Speaker 1: been in the water. Every time you go through fiber analysis,
22:52
Speaker 1: it means the body has been checked from head to
22:56
Speaker 1: toe and that includes your canals, finger, nails, toenails, and
23:03
Speaker 1: oftentimes We undress and wash the bodies right before autopsy,
23:13
Speaker 1: so we're able to see all the clothes. We fold them,
23:18
Speaker 1: we go through them, we photograph them, and then the
23:23
Speaker 1: photographs themselves are part of the analysis. And if somebody's
23:28
Speaker 1: wearing dark clothes and there's light orange or red or
23:31
Speaker 1: yellow fibers and somebody says, oh, this looks like rope
23:35
Speaker 1: from a nautical shop or a boat, you know, we
23:38
Speaker 1: take a look at that. Or there's really dark fibers
23:42
Speaker 1: and somebody's wearing a lot of white. Those fibers are
23:44
Speaker 1: saved and sent off and tested to see if they're
23:47
Speaker 1: natural synthetic, and if they're important and they're matched to
23:54
Speaker 1: any of the wounds or bruises on the body. Those
24:00
Speaker 1: those that is how we find them, and that is
24:02
Speaker 1: what we use them for too. Joseph's got Morgan joining me,
24:05
Speaker 1: forensics expert, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of
24:09
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe got question, Explain
24:14
Speaker 1: to me about the transfronts of fiber and how you
24:17
Speaker 1: end up matching up to get a positive match on
24:21
Speaker 1: fiber evidence alone, and what does it mean you know
24:24
Speaker 1: fiber evidence in the last few years has become very controversial, Nancy.
24:28
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, some people won't even include
24:30
Speaker 1: it any longer. But this was a game changer back
24:34
Speaker 1: at that particular time in forensic evidence, and one of
24:37
Speaker 1: the things that will carefully do is to conduct what
24:41
Speaker 1: or refer to as tape lifts off of the body
24:44
Speaker 1: also at the scene, to do comparison any kind of
24:47
Speaker 1: items that may have come in contact with any source
24:50
Speaker 1: of fiber, such as a weapon that might be crusted
24:54
Speaker 1: with blood, the interior cars, obviously the body, as doctor
24:58
Speaker 1: Moroney had mentioned just a moment ago, the clothing associated
25:02
Speaker 1: with the body, to do a comparison analysis, you know,
25:06
Speaker 1: synthetic fibers like you know, we're so they kind of
25:10
Speaker 1: burst on the scene. With the Wayne Williams case, that
25:13
Speaker 1: carpet that was found in his car and in his
25:17
Speaker 1: home was a very short run carpet that had been
25:20
Speaker 1: actually generated right up the road in Dalton, Georgia, and
25:24
Speaker 1: it was very unique. So you're looking for a unique
25:27
Speaker 1: pattern that has connectivity back to the scene, back to
25:30
Speaker 1: the body, and back to the back to the perpetrator.
25:34
Speaker 1: It's kind of a triangle if you think about it.
25:35
Speaker 1: But Joe Scott. How are the cases similar? Why were
25:40
Speaker 1: they grouped together to start with? And I'll tell you
25:42
Speaker 1: what I think is the problem. I believe Wayne Williams
25:45
Speaker 1: killed many, many of these children. But when he was convicted, see,
25:53
Speaker 1: they closed the cases on like twenty two other crimes,
25:57
Speaker 1: going oh yeah he did those two. I'd like to
26:00
Speaker 1: see modern DNA technology used on those. But first tell
26:04
Speaker 1: me the m that linked all these twenty nine together. Well,
26:08
Speaker 1: I think that the first point of reference that we
26:11
Speaker 1: have to go to, Nancy is going to be the
26:13
Speaker 1: race of the children and their age grouping. It's it's
26:17
Speaker 1: really you know, I think the public has been rocked
26:21
Speaker 1: or rocked into this idea that these are all children.
26:24
Speaker 1: These are not all children. Okay, as a matter of fact,
26:27
Speaker 1: two that I think that Wayne Williams was convicted of
26:30
Speaker 1: were in no way children. But there they have connectivity
26:35
Speaker 1: relative to racial grouping and locale where where these kids
26:42
Speaker 1: went missing. They're one of the first housing projects in
26:45
Speaker 1: the nation that sprung up after War two was a
26:48
Speaker 1: techwood housing development that you're well aware of that's no
26:52
Speaker 1: longer there. The Olympic Village took the took the place
26:55
Speaker 1: of it. A lot of these kids disappeared out of
26:57
Speaker 1: that area, and a few of these bodies were umped
27:00
Speaker 1: over in the adjacent county of Dacapp County, and many
27:03
Speaker 1: of these bodies were found in water areas associated with
27:07
Speaker 1: the Chattahoochee River. Matter of fact, I know one of
27:10
Speaker 1: the investigators that was present when the first body was
27:13
Speaker 1: discovered in a wooded area, So there's connectivity with this
27:18
Speaker 1: to a certain degree. But I think a lot of
27:21
Speaker 1: these can be placed at the feet of him, but
27:24
Speaker 1: not every one of them. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,
27:40
Speaker 1: where we are in the investigation right now as we
27:42
Speaker 1: do not know the person and our persons that are responsible.
27:44
Speaker 1: Therefore we do not have the money. The keller seems
27:47
Speaker 1: to talk police and read pressed clippings. After a world
27:51
Speaker 1: publicized but feuderal surge along a road in an outlying county,
27:55
Speaker 1: the next child strangled with a rope was dumped there.
27:58
Speaker 1: I want. A suburban police official criticized Atlanta's investigation. A
28:03
Speaker 1: child choked to death was left just inside that official's
28:06
Speaker 1: county line. After a press report the police had found
28:10
Speaker 1: fibers on some of the bodies. Six of the last
28:12
Speaker 1: seven victims have been dropped into rivers all stripped to
28:16
Speaker 1: their undershorts or less, possibly to wash away evidence. You're
28:20
Speaker 1: hearing from our friend James Polk at NBC News. In
28:24
Speaker 1: the last days we learned that the Atlantic child murderers
28:27
Speaker 1: investigation is set to be reopened. Doctor William Moroney, author
28:35
Speaker 1: of American Narcian Medical Examiner, Doctor Moroney, what about the
28:39
Speaker 1: cause of death the m O how are they similar
28:42
Speaker 1: one to the other? Well, if you look at the
28:47
Speaker 1: type of suffocation, scranulation or blunt force injuries, they'll always
28:53
Speaker 1: show some kind of handedness that somebody that did this
28:58
Speaker 1: was more than likely right handed, and it was right
29:01
Speaker 1: handed each time. Or if there's a sequence of injuries
29:06
Speaker 1: like a beating and then a strangulation, you can tell
29:11
Speaker 1: that a beating is first because it causes bruises and strangulation.
29:18
Speaker 1: If that's first, then you don't have blood flow and
29:21
Speaker 1: you don't have the bruises. So is that one of
29:24
Speaker 1: the motus aperandi that continues to follow in each of
29:28
Speaker 1: the areas two? Ask You Wilcott, judge lawyer. You can
29:33
Speaker 1: find her at ask you Wilcott dot com. Ashley, I
29:36
Speaker 1: believe the case is for which Wayne Williams was convicted.
29:40
Speaker 1: I believe thoroughly in my heart and mind he did it.
29:45
Speaker 1: Now here's my issue. I don't like it when they
29:48
Speaker 1: say we're reopening the Wayne Williams case. But what they
29:52
Speaker 1: did when they closed his case, when they got these
29:55
Speaker 1: two convictions in the deaths of two of the victims,
30:00
Speaker 1: they closed about twenty two weather cases. They blamed it
30:05
Speaker 1: on Williams and they never formally charged him. Now, are
30:09
Speaker 1: those Wayne Williams victims very possibly, yes, But if there's
30:13
Speaker 1: new DNA technology, I'm all for trying it on him.
30:17
Speaker 1: They agree with you, it's the right thing to do
30:19
Speaker 1: to reopen the case. Now, to me, it's not reopening
30:21
Speaker 1: the case on Wayne Williams. It's reopening the case for
30:24
Speaker 1: these children right there, the victims. It's reopening the case
30:28
Speaker 1: on these children because, bottom line, it's never been proven.
30:32
Speaker 1: There's never been a conviction, there's never been a guilty
30:34
Speaker 1: plea for who killed those children. So those are unanswered questions,
30:39
Speaker 1: and frankly, the families of those children deserve those answers,
30:43
Speaker 1: especially with new technology. Listen, one investigator says, even if
30:49
Speaker 1: the killer walked in the door and confessed, there is
30:52
Speaker 1: not enough evidence now to convict him. A half dozen
30:55
Speaker 1: of the cases maybe isolated, unrelated homicides. The victims found
31:00
Speaker 1: near home, killed perhaps by family or friends. But somewhere
31:04
Speaker 1: in the city of Atlanta, there is a person who
31:06
Speaker 1: has killed fifteen or twenty boys and young men. The
31:10
Speaker 1: district attorney keeps a chart on the wall with names
31:13
Speaker 1: of the dead and room for more. With my fairy,
31:16
Speaker 1: the person is not abducted, not kidnap, not snatched off
31:21
Speaker 1: the street at that particular time, but is willingly going
31:25
Speaker 1: with somebody for something, at least at the instance they
31:28
Speaker 1: get in the car. They're going to make some money,
31:31
Speaker 1: They're going to meet somebody. They're going starting off willingly.
31:36
Speaker 1: You know, Doctor Kieran start joining me psychologists out of
31:39
Speaker 1: New York. You can find her at kerinstart dot com.
31:42
Speaker 1: I agree, although some parents may feel that it's just
31:45
Speaker 1: opening up old wounds, others may say, hey, you know what,
31:49
Speaker 1: let's just try the DNA and see what happens. I
31:51
Speaker 1: think it's really important, Nancy, to know who who exactly
31:55
Speaker 1: the killer was. And I think that for any kind
31:58
Speaker 1: of peace of mind, which we all know that never
32:01
Speaker 1: really happens when you've lost somebody didn't forget about being
32:05
Speaker 1: murdered children the horrific part of the story. I think
32:10
Speaker 1: that they need to know exactly who the killer was
32:13
Speaker 1: that it will make a difference absolutely and chew Lee Egan,
32:17
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. What happened was that
32:22
Speaker 1: many people claim, and I do not believe this myself,
32:27
Speaker 1: that there was a cover up of some sort. It
32:31
Speaker 1: was mostly led by Wayne Williams himself and his followers.
32:35
Speaker 1: He always claimed he's innocent and that Atlanta officials wanted
32:39
Speaker 1: to cover up evidence of a ku Klux Klan role
32:43
Speaker 1: and the killings to avoid a race war. I'm not
32:49
Speaker 1: buying it, not buying a race war or a big
32:53
Speaker 1: cover up because, frankly, same reason. I don't think that
32:57
Speaker 1: there was a cover up in the O. J. Simpson
32:59
Speaker 1: case or conspiracy. I don't think people are smart enough
33:02
Speaker 1: to keep a conspiracy quiet for all those years. Well, Nancy,
33:06
Speaker 1: the thing is also there was a member of the KKK.
33:11
Speaker 1: He didn't specifically take responsibility for these killings, but he
33:16
Speaker 1: made it seem as if they were involved, and he
33:19
Speaker 1: was happy about what happened, so he kind of led
33:22
Speaker 1: into that conspiracy theory and kept it going. So one
33:27
Speaker 1: freak says he was happy about the killings, and we're
33:32
Speaker 1: going to reopen the case. I don't think that's enough
33:34
Speaker 1: to reopen the case. But if there's new and advanced
33:38
Speaker 1: DNA technology that can put some parents' hearts and minds
33:41
Speaker 1: at rest, I'm all for it. Children were dying on
33:46
Speaker 1: the streets of Atlanta in the daytime. What we had
33:50
Speaker 1: here was a predator and what he was looking for
33:54
Speaker 1: was somebody who was cut off and hurt. And if
33:57
Speaker 1: you don't realize you're in trouble until you're in trouble,
34:02
Speaker 1: then you have in a way of getting out. It
34:06
Speaker 1: would be another year before Geoffrey Mathis's body was found
34:10
Speaker 1: in the woods, miles from his home. Nancy Grace's crime
34:14
Speaker 1: Story signing off good Bye friend,