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The Study of Eternal Security Part 2 | Simply Christ Ministries · Simply Christ Podcast

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with Aaron Keaton, Melvin Martin, Andrew Schrock and Dan
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Blatz. Let's get right to it.
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So, yeah, good morning. Thanks everybody for being on
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here. See, Gary and John, John is
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actually out at, I don't know, out West somewhere harvesting
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wheat. Used to drive this truck on the
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East Coast. But thanks for being on pretty
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early out there yet. But he's probably sitting
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waiting on the combines already anyway, so we'll get started
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here. Melvin, why don't you open this
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up with a word of prayer? Sure, let's pray.
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Father, we bless you today and thank you, and we thank you for
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another day that you have allowed the sun to rise again
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today, and just that we have another day to serve you and
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thank you for your word. And Father, just guys with your
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spirit as we go through your word today and that your word
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could speak to us and to others and we could open our ears and
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just learn more of You and understand who You are.
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Thank You that You have given us your word to guide us and direct
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us in this life. We thank you for your many
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blessings that you have given us and you're such a good, good
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Father. We honor you and praise you in
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Jesus name, Amen. Amen.
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Yeah, I was sitting here making coffee and over the last since
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I've been in Mexico there I was kind of conscious about our
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business in life, you know, just running hammered out all the
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time. And I was over there, one of the
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we were talking visiting with a guy and he was like, what, what
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kind of hobbies do you have? We were talking about playing
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pickleball and I said, you know, I don't really, I don't really
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have any hobbies, I don't think. I mean, I, I like tinkered
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around in the shop a little bit and I'll go fishing once in a
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while, but there's there's no kind of a hobby that I'm really
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invested in much. I play pickleball here and
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there, but nothing real real serious, you know, we don't make
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a point of doing it once a week or anything like that.
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Maybe, maybe I'm just not a very scheduled person.
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I'm not sure. But how about you guys?
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Do you have hobbies that if you know you try to do or to relax
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or do with your family at all? Yeah, we.
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We fish quite a bit. We probably fish at least, you
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know, about once a week probably, and play pickleball.
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But one of the things that we like to do too is camping, but
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we don't seem to get it done much for the we have a camper,
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but it just seems that it's hard sometimes in the summertime
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because everybody's busy, you know, get off.
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But but that's the main thing is probably fishing and and
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pickleball probably and baseball.
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Actually, we play baseball every with our group here, our church
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group, we and others calm. We play usually about every
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week. Not quite.
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It's been raining a lot. They're really muddy here.
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So but you, we try and play every Friday night.
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So that's always fun. And every week we let everybody
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play down to basically 8 year olds, you know, and dads.
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And so that's always, that's fun.
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What about the Canadians? Do they just go past their
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Eskimos for pastime or? We've got the same temperature
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you have. We, we say similar.
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Like I used to play a lot of slow pitch baseball and then I
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gave it up for a number of years for just because it was too busy
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with family and it just was, it was taking up too much of my
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time playing on multiple teams and tournaments and stuff like
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that. And I longed for the day when I
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could finally play together with my sons.
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And so now the last four years I've been playing together with
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my oldest son. He's now 19.
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And then also there's a local Christian, it's 99% Mennonite,
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former Mennonite people that have started a kids Christian
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league. So I coached my younger boys.
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And then the other one. The other hobby that we have as
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a family, which is not super relaxing is for the last three
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years, once a week we go to a jiu jitsu class.
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So you don't go there to relax, but it's, it's very informative
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and quite helpful actually, when you you've done it for a couple
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years. Most people that get into it get
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into it a lot. They'll do it four or five times
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a week. We just do once a week.
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And, but after only two or three years of doing it once a week,
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if anybody comes in off the street and doesn't know what
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they're doing and you can fold them up in a pretzel pretty
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quick and make them tap and say I'm done.
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So it's kind of neat and and all the kids do it.
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Me with six of the kids and then the youngest one, she doesn't,
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she stays home with mom, but. So is that like the that's not
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just self-defense either? Is it just good exercise in
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general, or is it mostly just geared towards self-defense?
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It's, I don't know if you know, like the whole UFC scene.
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I never got into that. I don't really care for the the
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atmosphere at the UFC stuff, but 25 some odd years ago, then when
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that kind of became famous and popular, jujitsu was kind of
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what made it that way. Because this young jujitsu guy
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from Brazil beat everybody, even people 100 lbs bigger than him.
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So it's, it's about submitting your opponent.
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You're able to get them in chokeholds or arm bars or
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whatever, right? It's a grappling sport and so
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it's, it's not quite like wrestling, but it's more you're
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actually trying to stop the person from being able to
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continue, right, so. That's interesting, I I've heard
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about it quite a bit. It doesn't the I think the like
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the police force or law enforcement uses some form of.
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I was just talking with my friend who's ADNR then.
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He was saying that recently they, the the law enforcement,
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they kind of switched systems like defense systems or whatever
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and what they use now, they switch from whatever they had to
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some form of jujitsu as far as like how they handle an opponent
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or something. There are more and more police
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forces recognizing that they, they look back on video and they
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see they don't know how to handle a crazy person, right.
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And so one of the chief instructors or the head
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instructors at our gym is also a the police trainer in our local
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city here. And he was formerly actually a
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UFC fighter. So it's, you wouldn't want to
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toy around with him, that's for sure.
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But yeah, but it's very practical self-defense and
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opponent control kind of art. Yeah, what what he was saying is
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that it works really good because the whole idea, like
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they like they like to be close to somebody.
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Like if somebody is armed or even not armed, whatever they
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are, they are taught to get close to him.
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That's much more dangerous if you're away.
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And jiu jitsu, that is what it is.
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It's a contact, you know, so it, it's, it's stuff they can do.
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You had this stuff, all of that. In the old days, you know, you
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just like you could watch, you know, any Western movies or
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anything in the old days, just like knock people out, right?
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That was how they fought. And so they had to be super.
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You know, the strongest man wins, so to speak.
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I think in jiu jitsu, it's a little more about strategy,
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right? I mean it it's not matter how
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strong you are necessarily, but it's in knowing how to for what
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I understand about. Yeah, no strength can definitely
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help still like sometimes they they make make it sound like as
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if it's completely equalizes everyone.
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But if if I'm with somebody, and I've done this a few Times Now
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where there's a guy that's a good 5060 lbs heavier than me, I
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can handle him because I know a little bit of moves now.
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However, the other way is also true.
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There's guys that have been doing this a lot for a long time
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but are 2030 lbs lighter than me and they fold me up like I'm
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nothing right? I think it'd be a, it'd be
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really good to, you know, to have your kids, especially your
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girls, know some form of, you know, even if not the physical
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part, just a couple of things that that would be really
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helpful in the case that somebody would come at him.
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The one instructor actually grew up in Brazil and I think he's
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probably become a Christian since he started coming there.
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It's pretty neat to see the, the ministry aspect of it as well.
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But anyway, he said he, when he was a kid, there was a lot of
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crime in Brazil. And so they would spend their
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time on the beaches and they were, they were not supposed to
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use their art, but it that was the thing to do all weekend.
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If there was criminals or people doing things, they would just go
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and and hold them, knock them out in about 10 seconds you can
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have somebody out cold and then they would just walk away.
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And then the police could deal with it or whatever, right.
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So. I see.
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Yeah, that's, that's a little different coming from, you know,
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the non non resistant background, you know, but.
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I think that's cool because, you know, a lot of people around
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here in the South you see carrying, you know, pistols on
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their sides. That's a big thing.
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We got none of that. Yeah, I mean, so with that,
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like, you have your weapons on you, right?
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All at all times, you don't need to have a gun strapped on you.
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So that's cool. I like that.
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I still wouldn't bring jujitsu to an to a gunfight though, but
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yeah. Yeah.
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Good morning, Andrew. Good to have you.
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Yes, I see that. That's good.
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We were just talking about hobbies and stuff and Dan said
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they'd go to jiu jitsu classes, so kind of interesting.
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What does Andrew do for hobbies? What do you do?
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For Watch my cows eat hey. OK.
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I do. I do that from time to time.
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That's probably more relaxing than most of the ones we were
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talking about. It's.
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Therapeutic. It is, it is.
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I have a few cattle in my pasture and it's really nice to
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sit out and watch them. Just munch around that though.
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As energetic as you are, Andrea, I did not expect that to be one
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of the hobbies, but. You guys do a fair bit of
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volleyball though too, eh? That's probably, yeah, that's
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probably my real hobby probably is volleyball.
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I'm getting fatter now so pickleball starts to sound
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better. You're leaving leaving the.
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Ground is a little bit harder than he.
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Swinging the paddles easier, yeah.
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Yeah, like I stay, I can still jump, but I just don't come off
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the ground anymore. Yeah, Yeah.
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Anyway, All right, let's let's talk a little bit about this
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security issue in our salvation issue.
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How that how that works. Yeah, we had last week.
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I thought it was a really good informative discussion.
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I I learned, you know, perspective that, that I didn't
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never really thought about Dan brought it out that, you know,
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when we, when we have all these different camp, so to speak,
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then pretty soon we're pitting one against the other, you know,
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to try to excuse one verse and hold this one up.
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And, and I don't think that's how we should read the Bible.
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That's not how I read any other book, you know, or any other
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thing, but rather believe it as it's written.
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Some verses talk a lot about, you know, security, being secure
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and how that God is faithful in in keeping us and others remind
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us to keep on our toes to stay in the faith.
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Matter of fact, I was reading, I can't remember which Scripture
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it was, but it says to examine yourselves.
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Yeah, it's in Second Corinthians 13.
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Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith, you know, so
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there's, you know, two sides of the same same point here
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regarding this. But this morning we're going to
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look at kind of a second view. We talked last week about, you
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know, kind of the classic one saved, always saved position or
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belief, you know, that once you've been saved, you could
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never you could never abandoned that faith.
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That's that would be yours. And then the second one is kind
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of similar. The key difference probably is
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that the people that this view is a little bit more, you know,
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perseverance is the evidence of genuine salvation.
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So in other words, the fact that you are persevering is, is the
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demonstration of a genuine salvation.
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So I don't, I don't know a lot about this, but there are some
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scriptures that we're going to look at in regards to this view.
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It really to me is this kind of the same, same as the one saved
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always say. But there's a couple of
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different scriptures about it that I want to look at that I
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think would help us to iron out and understand how it is that we
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are reconciled to God as believers.
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That that's ultimately what I would like us to understand is
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how it is that when we live our life on this earth and do the
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things that we do on this earth, how that how that God views that
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relationship. Are we in charge of maintaining
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that? Is God in charge of maintaining
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that? How does God love us?
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Does he love us when we mess up and do something stupid or
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doesn't he? You know, those kind of things
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is really what I would like to kind of think about when we're
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going through some of these scriptures anyway.
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The first one is John 637 through 40, and I'm going to
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read it then we'll see what you guys think about it.
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All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that
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cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will
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of Him that sent me. And this is the Father's will
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which has sent me. That of all which He had given
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me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the
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last day. And this is the will of Him that
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sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son you leaveth on him
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may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last.
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Day. Again, like I said this, this
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looks awfully much like, like the one we were studying last
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week, but it's a different, different birth.
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And I just wondered if there's anything that you guys see on,
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on this that kind of stands out. I mean it, I, you know what God
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does in, in the sense of keeping up.
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I mean, there's no doubt about what he does there, but your
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thoughts on those specials made him.
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Yeah, I think, but you said it's so kind of the what I see in
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here as far as the idea of this view of the perseverance of the
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Saints, it is like talking mostly about, you know, like
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you're the elect or that you're predestinated.
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And anyway we're going to get into that, into the next
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scripture. But what I see here in this
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Scripture here is that one of the things that I, when you look
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back on the context, I think it's important.
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I know for myself, when we are looking at a topic, so to speak,
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or talking about a certain thing like we are here is so easy to
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pick out scriptures and people that believe in certain ways or
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certain things, they pick out these scriptures.
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And I think it's important that you go into the Bible and look
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back and see the context of what is actually being taught here.
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Because if you just pick out a couple scriptures, it's you can
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twist that. And I think that's what is
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dangerous in a lot of these beliefs.
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Like you said, there's very little difference between these
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beliefs, but why, why like in my brain, it's like, why hackle
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over these different beliefs? I like what Dan brought out last
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week too, is that, you know, in the scheme of things, why are
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we, I would say splitting hairs, so to speak.
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But what I see here in this scripture is that Jesus is
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trying to convince the Pharisees actually that he is God or he's
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trying to and they're they're not getting it because if you
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back up a little bit, it says, but I say unto you that ye also
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has seen me and believe not. So he's like he's like
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challenging them. And then he's just going into
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what you read through 37 through 40 and kind of pointing out that
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that the father giveth me all that come to me like he's
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pointing out that him and the father are one.
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And so that I think is very important in what we what we see
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here in the Scripture and we understand that we are one in
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Christ. We are one with the Father and
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with Jesus in Christ. And 40 it says in verse 40, it
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says, and this kind of stood out to me and says, and this is the
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will of him that sent me father, that everyone which seeth the
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Son, he says seeth the Son like with your eyes and believeth on
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him may have everlasting life and will raise him up on the
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last day. So he's talking about them
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pacifically, the Pharisees you see in me and you don't believe
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on me. He says he that seeth me and
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believeth will have everlasting life.
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And when in John 20 he says this to Thomas, I just want to point
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this out. It's not just those that see
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Jesus that believe on him of everlasting life.
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It's also just those that believe on Jesus don't have to
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necessarily see Jesus physically here.
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He's challenging them and saying you have seen me, actually you
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have physically seen me and you still don't believe.
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In John 20 when Jesus is talking to Thomas, he says Thomas
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answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
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Thomas didn't believe that Jesus was alive again, risen out of
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the grave and he showed in his hands and his feet where he was
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crucified. And then Jesus said unto Thomas
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in verse 29, he says Thomas, because thou has seen me, thou
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has believed. And then he says, blessed are
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they that have not seen and yet have believed.
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So that was one thing that stood out to me here.
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Is it it just the fact that we don't have to physically see
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Jesus to believe in Jesus? And that's why we call it
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believing by faith, right? And so.
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That's where faith comes in. To some degree there's different
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aspects of faith, but that was just one of the things that
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stood up for me. That's good.
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Yeah, it's, it's kind of interesting, like Melvin pointed
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out, that the whole passage Jesus is trying to convince them
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to believe. And he's telling them it's their
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responsibility to believe, but they refuse to.
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And this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has
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sent. You know, what shall we do?
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How do we work the works of God? They said, he said, well believe
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and they refuse to believe. And so the, the idea that this
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is somehow fits into that Calvinist camp, the the Tulip
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doctrine is, is quite absurd because the opportunity is there
20:59
and he's condemning them for not believing, right.
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So it's it would be very contradictory for those that
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don't know, you have to almost in order to read these
21:09
scriptures in light of what they believe, you kind of have to
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know the framework of their thinking and Calvinistic
21:16
thinking is what brings out this perseverance of the Saints kind
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of view. And just a very briefly
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summarize that they use the word Tulip, many of them do, to
21:24
describe what they call the doctrines of grace.
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And two, the T stands for total depravity, meaning you cannot do
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any good whatsoever. You're born evil, you're born
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sinful and you're so corrupt by nature and by birth and by
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heritage that there's no way you could do anything good ever.
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And then you is unconditional election because of course, if
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if God's going to ever choose you, he's going to have to do it
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apart from you completely. So he unconditionally elects
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some. And this is where some have
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jokingly called it duck, duck damn.
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You know, God's playing a little game there where he's choosing
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which ones he wants to save and which ones he wants to damn.
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And then L is limited atonement. It kind of follows that if you
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believe that God only died for Christ, only died for some, then
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it must be limited. The atonement is limited only to
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those select few. And so those that believe are
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clearly the elect. They've been chosen, they've
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been redeemed. And then there's the the URTULI
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is irresistible grace. So it because it's completely by
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grace and you cannot do anything good, you're totally depraved.
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All you can do is sinful. Then God has to save you apart
22:35
from yourself. So he irresistibly turns faith
22:38
on in your brain where you had nothing to do with it.
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He turns faith on and then you believe, then you're redeemed,
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then you're regenerated. So he saved you before you
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actually believe. He he gives you the gift of
22:51
faith. Ephesians says that it in
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chapter 2 that it is the gift of God, not of lurks, lest any man
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should boast. They would say that gift is
22:59
faith. And so you're given faith
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irresistibly you are saved. And then he says perseverance of
23:05
the Saints. So clearly if God has already
23:07
played this duck duck damn game, he knows that this one here is
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going to be saved. He knows that this one is going
23:13
to be lost. And so if he's irresistibly
23:16
saved you apart from your own will and ability, then clearly
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he's going to save you in the end because he's already here.
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He knows the end from the beginning.
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And so that's a bit of a, a probably kind of glossing over a
23:29
lot of what they would say, but I think they would more or less
23:32
agree with that concepts, those concepts that God does this work
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apart from you, it's outside of you, has nothing to do with you.
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He saves you and therefore he's going to have you persevere to
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the end. And then, then they start
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getting into, OK, that's how God sees it.
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This is how we need to view it. And that's where they they can
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hold this view and still be pretty rational Christians for
23:56
the most part, some of them, right?
23:59
Yeah, that's good. Because if you look at just just
24:02
what you were talking like the Tulip doctrine, you're like,
24:06
man, that doesn't even make sense.
24:07
But then they they cap that with the idea that we don't we don't
24:11
see it. So we still have to struggle to
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live correctly or whatever. Yeah.
24:15
Yeah. Makes sense, Andrew.
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Yeah, I never heard the Tulip thing.
24:21
You messed up my tulips. You're never going to see tulips
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the same. Yeah, they're like, cut them
24:28
off, round up them anyhow. No, I hate that doctrine.
24:40
It's so insane. But when you dig down and you
24:45
actually watch their lives, they don't believe that doctrine.
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If they would believe it, they wouldn't have children.
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I wouldn't have kids if I knew that it's a duck, duck, duck
24:55
damn game. The fact that I it was amazing.
25:02
We had a big birthday party last night for dad.
25:04
He turned 70 and all the kids came by that were in the states
25:09
except one. It was pretty amazing.
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And the talk got to talking to my brother Emmanuel and he said
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the Calvinists are one of the most pro evangelist groups
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effectively out some of the best evangelists are Calvinists And
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I'm like, you got to be kidding. So they really don't believe it.
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They're big in an eventualism then why?
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If it's already predetermined and there's nothing we can do
25:36
about it. So right there it tells you they
25:38
don't believe it. But I'm also persevering of the
25:41
Saints believer. I believe that I'm going to
25:45
believe that Jesus Christ is the atonement for my sin.
25:47
He reconciled me and that's where I'm going to stand the
25:50
rest of my days. So I'm yeah, I'm with them on
25:54
that. It's just, it's interesting,
25:57
like Dan said, it's absurd that they would think that this has
25:59
something to do with perseverance of the Saints.
26:02
No, Jesus Christ is just a good father.
26:06
He says he's better father than we are, says we're evil and we
26:09
know how to give our children good gifts.
26:12
And society would look weird on my dad if you'd lose us or if he
26:17
would cast us out or if he would all of a sudden want to disown
26:20
us. That would be like a we would
26:23
the society would say that's a bad dad.
26:25
Like even a physical, we'd be like, yeah, that dangerous.
26:30
He's awful. He cast out his kids.
26:32
He doesn't love them anymore. Like, you know, Jesus Christ,
26:35
you're saying I'm I'm a good father, like everything that I
26:38
have all my children. I won't lose anyone.
26:41
I won't cast them out. I won't.
26:42
You're mine. And whoever believes on me,
26:45
whoever, anybody that believes me has eternal life.
26:49
Everyone, anybody that would listen, believe will have the
26:53
eternal life. And to tell you what will you
26:54
believe me? You, you're mine.
26:56
And I won't, you'll be my child forever.
26:59
I won't cast you out. I'm a good dad.
27:01
So I read that it's just like good.
27:03
I'm glad or reason to believe on Christ.
27:09
Yeah. Yeah.
27:10
I mean, it's important and I think that's where a lot of this
27:13
kind of doctrinal differences come.
27:15
Is Dan touched on a little bit when we start pulling out a
27:20
verse separated from its surroundings.
27:23
You know, we can really like they say, if you, if you torture
27:26
a verse long enough, it'll confess to anything.
27:29
And and it really does. If if you, if you take a, you
27:32
know, I could say, I could say like, I could say like, Hey, we
27:36
have no power. And if, if I don't surround that
27:40
and qualify that statement by by what I'm what I mean by that,
27:45
you could take that anywhere. You could say, say that I, I,
27:48
Leon said that we have no power in Christ, Like we're just,
27:51
we're just victims. Some people would say, well,
27:55
their electric must be out. Another guy would say his
27:57
engines not running right in his truck because he has no power.
28:01
You know, you can come up with all kinds of things.
28:03
But if, if you actually listen to the entire conversation, it,
28:06
it narrows it down to only what he was saying.
28:10
And that's a problem when we start lifting verses out of
28:13
context. And that that is, I appreciate,
28:16
you know, Melvin pointing that out that if we are to look at a
28:20
verse, we need to understand 100%.
28:23
Cause often, often when we first started studying the Bible as a
28:28
new believer, we'd be, we'd be looking at a verse and, and just
28:33
knocking her hands against the wall.
28:34
Like, what does this mean? How do we, how do we understand
28:37
that? And then someone was smart
28:39
enough to keep reading and and then you're like, oh, so if we
28:44
just keep reading the story, it self explains and then it's a
28:49
that it's a big deal. And the other thing I wanted to
28:52
comment on, on the, on the Tulip doctrine thing, some of that
28:57
stuff just simply violates the God's principles because the,
29:04
the whole idea like you can go back to Genesis and see what
29:07
happened there when he put man on earth.
29:10
And then he put a tree there and said, don't eat of it.
29:16
And by doing that, he made it clear that he is putting the
29:22
choice in our hands. If if he wanted to be a God that
29:28
elects his people by saying you, not you, you, not you, then that
29:34
tree had no purpose there, in my opinion.
29:38
You know, I, I, I don't know why he would have done that a little
29:42
bit that, you know, give us the option of not choosing God so
29:46
that those that do is sweet fellowship.
29:49
Maybe I'm wrong there, but that that that looks to me like
29:52
that's God's heart from the very, very beginning of of
29:55
having created man is to see who would trust him and believe him.
29:59
I know that as a as a father, the most satisfying thing in my
30:04
kids is to see them make a right choice without any push from me.
30:07
I mean, they know my heart. They I've taught them, I've
30:09
teach, I've LED them and whatever.
30:11
And then to see them do the right thing is exciting.
30:14
So. I guess the part of this passage
30:17
that the Calvinists or the Reformed people would point out
30:20
the most is it says in verse 37, all that the Father hath given
30:24
me, or the fall that the Father giveth me shall come to me, Him
30:27
that cometh to me will I no wise cast out.
30:29
So they would say the order of events is this, here you are a
30:33
lost Sinner, and God has predestined or chosen certain of
30:37
you. And if the Father gives them to
30:39
me, then I won't turn them down, because whoever it comes to me,
30:42
I won't cast out. I came down from heaven not to
30:45
do my own will, but of him that sent me.
30:47
So he's saying basically I do everything according to the will
30:50
of God. And they would go so far as to
30:52
say that there is nothing that happens outside of God's
30:57
sovereignty. This is how they were you view
30:59
the the term sovereignty, they would even say that the 11
31:03
famous Calvinist said that there is not one rogue molecule in all
31:07
of the universe. Everything is under God's
31:10
control and under his predestined will.
31:14
And so if you are going to come to the Father, the Father has to
31:18
give you to the OR come to Jesus.
31:20
The Father has to give you to Jesus.
31:22
And that's where how they would read this verse in light of that
31:25
perseverance or in light of that irresistible grace concept.
31:31
Yeah, I think, I think you're talking about that gave Leon his
31:36
gag reflexes were erection. No, I was listening.
31:45
No, that's good. That, that is what aggravates me
31:50
so bad. Like everything surrounded by
31:52
choices throughout all history, and then all of a sudden we say
31:55
that God is in charge of everything.
31:57
If he's in charge of everything, he's awful at it.
32:01
If God orchestrates everything that happens, then it was him
32:04
that raped the little girl. It was him that brought death
32:10
and destruction and chooses causes men to do evil things
32:14
because God is in control, they say.
32:17
Everything that happens was already preordained by God and
32:20
he orchestrated it and he's awful.
32:23
He's not doing a very good job with the country, but.
32:28
That's I agree with that too. Well, if you even even if you
32:31
think about that in your, you know, the disciples in John 17,
32:37
when he's praying for the disciples, he says, the Father,
32:42
I'm praying for those that you have given me and I have given
32:45
them, you know, you have drawn them to you, It says, But if you
32:48
think about the disciples, when Jesus started gathering his
32:52
disciples, what did he do? He he it says he saw Peter write
32:57
and he said, I will make you Fisher as a man, come and follow
33:00
me. And then it says, and then it's
33:03
it says that they left their boats and they followed him.
33:09
So in other words, my point is, is that he, Jesus, didn't come
33:13
up with a gun or jiu jitsu and say you're going to follow me or
33:17
else, right? And I have chosen you to follow
33:20
me. But he gave them a choice and
33:22
they chose to. Leave their.
33:25
Profession and follow Jesus so that that's pretty clear in my
33:29
mind. The in the book of John there's
33:32
a lot of these types of passages where Jesus says none of you
33:35
will come to me except the Father draw him.
33:38
And so they would say, well then there's nothing I can do unless
33:40
the father starts drawing me. But then in John chapter 12,
33:44
verse 32, Jesus says, and if I be lifted up from the earth, I
33:48
will draw all men unto me. Oh, what do you do about that?
33:53
Well, he's drawing on everybody and nobody would come if God
33:56
wasn't the instigator, if God didn't first reach out to us,
34:00
none of us would be saved. We we don't have any argument
34:03
with that. That's fine.
34:04
But he's not just picking one to draw and refusing the other.
34:08
He's lifting up Christ so that all he can draw all men to
34:12
himself. Not by some mechanical
34:14
predestined way, but by persuading, by trying to woo
34:19
them, by trying to show them that there's a better.
34:22
Way right. Yeah.
34:24
John 316 The old famous worth not burst, not his will that any
34:30
would perish. But at all, you know, that is
34:33
will there any perish. So I don't yeah.
34:36
It's it's a doctrine that I don't even know how it took off.
34:40
Like it's so anti Bible, anti God.
34:42
I don't know how. I really don't know how it took
34:45
off. Someone will even say that it's
34:50
not that. It's not that God orchestrated
34:56
everything. There's some that say what I
34:58
said earlier, that everything, every of the bad things that
35:00
happened, God was in that because he just like Pharaoh, he
35:05
used him as a vessel of damnation or whatever.
35:10
And. God hardened Pharaoh's.
35:12
Hard, yeah, and made him do evil things.
35:14
So God orchestrated that whole thing.
35:16
No, he just took advantage of an evil man to demonstrate the fact
35:22
that he has the power to choose who he will have mercy on.
35:26
And it's just so happens that you orchestrated a gospel that
35:28
he can have mercy about all to your chantile again, mercy upon
35:33
all there says in Romans. So God had a brilliant plan and
35:38
they're not following the brilliant plan.
35:40
They're getting stuck on one of the things that God uses to
35:43
justify himself in bringing mercy to all.
35:46
And so that's the disconnect. But what I was going to say is
35:51
they would there's a flavor of Calvinism that would say God
35:56
look the head and he saw who all will believe and those are pre
36:01
predestined. And he already saw who who would
36:05
do good and and who would do evil.
36:08
So he it's not that he chose or made them do it.
36:12
He just had the foreknowledge to know.
36:15
So that's a little better flavor of Calvinism, but it's still
36:18
that's. That's no longer unconditional
36:20
election then. That's conditioned upon the
36:22
foreknowledge of God, right? Yeah.
36:25
Yeah, we're going to look at some of those verses here a
36:27
little bit. Yeah.
36:29
I mean, he draws everybody in Romans, he said, but God
36:32
commendeth his love toward us, that while we were yet sinners,
36:38
Christ died for us. So what does that mean when he
36:41
commended his love toward us? That for what?
36:44
It's to everybody that that knows the story, that that's
36:48
that's a major part of the gospel.
36:50
That's why we need to know that there is a Savior out there and
36:55
God's will doesn't come to pass on this earth always.
36:58
We know that for a fact, but His because His will is that none
37:01
should perish, and yet daily people do.
37:06
So we know that if we look at sovereignty as anything that God
37:11
wants is what He gets. That is not the definition of
37:15
sovereignty. We can talk about that sometime,
37:18
but the word sovereign does not mean that you have utter
37:23
complete control of everything that happens.
37:25
That is not what that word means that we'll address that
37:28
sometime. But let's let's go on to the
37:29
next verse here. Romans 830 says, moreover, whom
37:34
he did predestinate them he also called, and whom he called them
37:39
he also justified, and whom he justified then he also
37:43
glorified. I feel like we kind of addressed
37:45
this already, but this is another one of those verses that
37:49
it's really important that we look at the surrounding context
37:54
there to understand exactly what he was talking about.
38:00
Romans 830. Melbourne.
38:02
Yeah, that that is what you said is so correct game because you
38:06
have to back up a little bit. But it says in verse 29 for whom
38:12
he did for know he also did predestinate to be conformed to
38:18
the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among
38:23
many brethren. So in other words, what he
38:25
predestinated is God predetermined or marked out
38:29
beforehand His plan to save people through through his Son
38:34
Jesus. Amen, right.
38:36
Amen. That is what predestination
38:39
actually is. So there's this thing is chock
38:45
full this verse I so that's a predestinated means you have to
38:51
back up and you can back up Father Eve.
38:53
I'm not going to right now. Maybe someone else can do that.
38:56
But then he said to them, he also he also called and so when
39:03
God calls you, we just got done talking about that God calls.
39:06
He reached out with the gospel of his sending his son.
39:10
Like you said, Leon, while we were yet sinners, God sent his
39:14
son to die for us and that that's that's his calling.
39:17
He he called us through the gospel of his son, Jesus Christ.
39:22
And then then he also justified. If you look up that word
39:27
justified, it is means just to be made righteous.
39:32
So through Jesus, we are made righteous.
39:36
We are justified. Then He also glorified.
39:40
This is interesting to me. I was pondering that thing in my
39:43
brain. Then He also glorified.
39:46
In other words, He is saying that He glorifies us when we put
39:50
our faith in Christ and in Christ alone.
39:53
He glorifies us now, like right now.
39:57
Now, someday we're going to be in glory with Him.
39:59
We're going to see Him face to face.
40:02
But what does that actually mean?
40:03
And I don't know if I understand it totally, but I did look up.
40:09
In John 17, and this is kind of interesting to me, in John 17
40:14
verses 9 and 10, Jesus says this.
40:18
He's praying to the Father, and he says, I pray for them, and I
40:22
pray not for the world, but for them which thou has given me.
40:26
For they are thine, and all mine are thine, and thine are mine,
40:32
and I am glorified in them. So in other words, Jesus
40:37
actually is glorified in US. I thought that was interesting.
40:42
And then if you go down to John 1720 and 23, it says 20 to 23,
40:49
it says this. Neither pray I for these alone,
40:54
but them also which shall believe on me.
40:58
Through their word that there. Is a gamma we were just talking
41:00
about earlier, that they all may be one, as thou Father art in
41:07
me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
41:13
We are one in Christ and in God. And that the world may believe
41:18
that thou has sent me. And then 22 says, And the glory
41:23
which thou gavest me, I have given them, that they may be 1
41:30
even as we are one, I in them, thou in me, that that that they
41:35
may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that
41:39
thou has sent me, and has loved them, and thou has loved me.
41:44
So I just thought that was so interesting how this thinking
41:49
about being glorified in Christ is that we are glorified
41:55
together with Father and the Son.
41:56
We're one with Jesus and with God and and that his glory is
42:02
actually in US and that's how we're glorified here on this
42:06
earth. And what does that all look
42:07
like? I don't know exactly, but it's
42:10
just so comforting to me, these verses and you know, thinking
42:15
that we don't have to be the elect or God is going to not
42:21
choose me or whatever because I'm not one of the elect.
42:25
That's just doesn't make sense in my mind when you read Spirit.
42:29
Right. Good points there, Melvin, Dan.
42:32
Yeah, a lot of good points there.
42:33
And and like you said, the the Romans chapter 8 passage is
42:37
building us up in this way towards the end of chapter 8
42:41
where he says nothing can separate us from the love of
42:43
God. He's trying to tell us in Romans
42:46
8 that the Spirit makes intercession for us with
42:48
groanings which cannot be uttered.
42:50
And then he says in verse 28, where everybody every knows this
42:53
passage, we know that all things work together for good to them
42:56
that love God and are the called according to his purpose.
43:01
And so it's it it's not trying to decide who did God call and
43:05
who did not God not call. He's giving comfort to believers
43:08
who are calling upon the name of the Lord saying, Hey, God
43:12
foreknew you. God foreknew also who he would
43:15
send and how he would go about saving those that he had
43:20
foreknown, right? And again, foreknowledge is in
43:22
there as one of the conditions. And so I don't know what God all
43:26
foreknew, but he did foreknow that he predestined Christ to
43:30
come and redeem the the people that he has in mind and all can
43:35
come and all that that word all has to very quickly be dismissed
43:39
in the Reformed theology. We've heard people speak on this
43:43
passage before or in First Timothy 3, I believe it is where
43:48
he says that God wants all to be saved.
43:52
He he said we should pray for those that are the kings and
43:54
those that are in authority because God wants all to be
43:57
saved. He basically the preacher that
43:59
we were listening to said that he just means that he wants all
44:02
kinds of people to be saved. He wants some from this kind and
44:05
some from this kind and all kinds of people.
44:08
The word all doesn't mean all. He said very plainly in this
44:12
sermon. And and same with for God so
44:15
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
44:18
If he loved the whole world, then wouldn't the whole world be
44:20
saved? No, the whole world's not saved.
44:22
So he loved all in the world, but only those particular
44:27
people, right. And so it it become like they
44:29
can they can take any verse and and put it into these different
44:34
doctrinal headings, the Tulip in many cases, right.
44:38
So this passage again, it it has to do with the inner workings of
44:43
God and his mind and what he has done before the foundation of
44:46
the world. There's no doubt about that.
44:48
We know that God foreknew things and that he predestined us for,
44:53
like Melvin said, for a very particular purpose, that we
44:55
would be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestined this
45:00
one to heaven, this one to hell. It has nothing to do with that.
45:03
He's predestined us for what? To be conformed the image of his
45:07
Son through this process, right through justification and all of
45:12
that. So and then the glorified part I
45:14
I find it connects quite well to previous chapters like Romans
45:18
chapter 6 or a Colossians chapter 3 that we pre recently
45:21
went through. We are together with Christ in
45:24
the heavenly places and like verses that Melvin read from
45:27
John 17 that we are with Christ. We are when he was glorified, we
45:31
were glorified. You know, when he was crucified,
45:34
we were also, But when he was glorified, we're seated together
45:37
with him. And so in God's reckoning, we
45:41
count these things to already be I am already justified, and I am
45:46
already called and I am already glorified, and I live that way,
45:50
right? Because that's God's reality.
45:54
Good stuff, Andrew. Yeah, now that has it, just that
45:59
kind of similar talk about the similar concept that I think is
46:03
talking about, I mean it's talking about more nations is
46:06
Romans 11/4 where it says what says the answer of God unto him.
46:10
I have reserved to myself 7000 men who have not bowed the need
46:14
to the image of bail. So he did the reserving.
46:17
They will say then verse 5. Even so, then at this present
46:21
time also there is a remnant according to the election of
46:24
grace. So if you're elected to
46:27
experience grace, then good for you.
46:30
If not, you'll be a really good missionary hoping that that'll
46:34
make you call. I just, I don't know, verse 6
46:40
and it by grace, then it is no more of works.
46:42
Otherwise grace is no more of grace.
46:44
But if it works, then there's no more grace.
46:46
Otherwise work is no more of work.
46:48
But then Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh
46:51
for. Uh oh, this communist God that
47:00
is a control freak that gets everything that he wants and
47:03
there's no choice. He says what then?
47:05
Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.
47:10
So Israel is not responding to what God is looking for, but the
47:13
election hath obtained it. Like he's always talking about
47:17
groups of people is not individuals.
47:19
And the rest were blinded. So God did what you did, the
47:23
blinding. So they, they use these verses,
47:26
they love these verses to kind of justify the idea that God has
47:31
created vessels, created people for blinding, for darkness, for
47:36
an example of evil, so that we can choose good according as it
47:41
is written. God has given them the spirit of
47:43
slumber. God hath given them the spirit
47:46
of slumber. Eyes that they should not see,
47:48
ears that they should not hear unto this day let their eyes be
47:52
darker, that they may not see and bow down their back all the
47:56
way. Sounds pretty bad, right?
47:59
You got to keep reading. And I say then, have they
48:02
stumbled that they should fall? God forbid.
48:05
But rather through their fall, salvation is coming to the
48:08
Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy.
48:11
Now if the fall of them be the richest of the world, and the
48:14
diminishing of them the richest of the Gentile, how much their
48:19
phones? So at the end of the day they're
48:22
still going to get a fair shake, and much more so than even the
48:30
Gentiles says, how much more their fullness.
48:33
For I speak into the you Gentiles in as much as I am the
48:36
apostle Gentiles. I magnify mine office if by
48:40
means I have provoked to emulation them which are my
48:43
flesh and might save some of them.
48:45
For if the casting way of them be the reconciling of the world,
48:50
what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead see
48:54
that the reconciling of the world.
48:58
So this whole thing about election and call and not
49:02
called, it's talking about nations here, the nation of
49:05
Israel versus the Gentiles. And it's saying because Israel
49:09
killed him, because the Jews rejected Christ and killed him,
49:13
because of their following rejection, it brought salvation
49:17
to the whole world. They had not crucified the load
49:20
of glory. Satan, if he would have known
49:22
what God had up his sleeve, they wouldn't have crucified him.
49:26
But because they rejected Him 'cause they were blinded,
49:30
because they killed Him, and that brought salvation to the
49:34
whole world. And it's going to benefit them
49:38
even more. At the end, they're going to be
49:40
life from the dead. So it's a win.
49:43
Yet He's able to have mercy upon all through this magnificent,
49:47
unbelievable plan. And yes, he blinded people.
49:51
God did, He says he did. He blinded them for a time to
49:56
bring in to bring in salvation for the entire world.
50:01
So if you're just read it, you can see that it undermines your
50:06
philosophy over and over as you're using the exact.
50:10
The exact verses that you're using to justify Calvinism is
50:13
actually the ones dismantling it.
50:16
It's just that the whole world, by him choosing to ignore or to
50:21
blind one group for a moment, brought salvation to the entire
50:27
other. That's good stuff.
50:33
Yeah, I, you know, back back to the verse 29 there Romans 829
50:40
for him. He did for no, he also did
50:42
predestinate. You know, we just kind of run
50:45
off on that and say, oh, you know, he must have picked that
50:48
one. But his predestinated, what he
50:50
what he predetermined was how we're going to be saved, how
50:54
we're going to be the first born, how we're going to be
50:58
called justified and glorified and all that stuff.
51:00
That's what he did. That's what he predestinated.
51:03
Well, the foundation. Yeah, he didn't predestinate who
51:07
he predestinated. How?
51:08
Now I need to amend it the method, not the person, the
51:12
method. Exactly.
51:13
So that's that's pretty clear, but.
51:15
Well, the, even the, the early apostles in the book of Acts, I
51:18
was trying to find it. I couldn't find it.
51:20
I was, I thought about this as I was studying this.
51:25
Peter had the same concept of being the elect, right?
51:28
Because in, in the book of Acts, until he seen that vision where
51:32
the the cloth came down with, with all the animals on it.
51:36
And, and there's a verse that says in Acts and I couldn't find
51:40
it. It says that when he saw that
51:43
even this spirit fell upon the Gentiles, the same as the Jews,
51:47
right. And and so the, the early
51:49
apostles had this idea, or Peter did anyway, had this idea that
51:55
it was only for the Jews, that this Jesus crucifixion and
51:59
resurrection. And God says, no, no, no, that's
52:01
not my plan. My plan is that it's for all.
52:04
It's for everyone, including the Gentiles and all that believe
52:08
from every nation and every tongue.
52:10
And so, yeah, that's, I thought about that as I was studying.
52:13
It's like. Yeah.
52:15
That's the next 10 what you're talking.
52:18
About goes behind it. All the thing we need to
52:20
remember that God has to say a lot of things that maybe are not
52:27
exactly balanced like I've noticed when you read the Bible,
52:32
there's things that it he says so strong on this side, but then
52:36
he says something on the other again about it, but it's a
52:39
little different. Like the thing about food is a
52:42
really good example. In one place it says you teach
52:45
that you should eat meats or get married or certain meats like
52:49
the dietary laws. You're preaching doctrines of
52:51
devils. And then in John 14, it tells us
52:54
how to have grace and mercy for those that eat herbs and not to
53:02
cause them to stumble and actually change your life
53:04
according to their convictions. But then in one another place he
53:07
says, you know what? If you're circumcised, you're an
53:10
enemy of the cross, an enemy of the cross.
53:14
Is he saying that anybody that's circumcised an enemy of the
53:16
cross? No, it's getting us to is is God
53:20
says things from both sides of the aisle to give us a good,
53:24
solid, sound perspective. We can't just run with a verse.
53:31
Let's get the perspective. If you have a perspective
53:35
mindset as you read it, it really makes a lot of sense.
53:42
That's that's why it's incredibly important to know the
53:45
content who's who's he talking to?
53:47
Because I use, I use different terms when I'm talking to one
53:50
person over another because or because of what the discussion
53:54
actually is or whatever. So, yeah, All right, let's go on
53:59
to the next one. I find this interesting that
54:02
that this one came up in in this portion here.
54:06
But let's read Hebrews 314. We went through this back when
54:12
we first started this study. I remember this says for we are
54:18
made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our
54:21
confidence steadfast and to the end.
54:25
This is this is on the opposite side of the same coin in my
54:28
opinion, because that that if there makes it very clear and
54:34
and who the if is talking to. It's not if if God decides or if
54:38
God chooses, but I just I just wonder what your guys is opinion
54:43
is on this in RE in the light of what our discussion is.
54:47
Where you at? Hebrews 314.
54:51
Yeah, Hebrews 314. Well, if you back up the 312, it
54:54
says, take heed, brother, unless there be any in any of you, an
54:59
evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
55:03
So. But then he goes on and says,
55:05
But exhort one another daily while it is called today, lest
55:08
any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
55:14
And then he says, so we are made partakers of Christ if we hold
55:18
the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.
55:22
So it like I said earlier, it's pretty clear when you go back
55:27
and read, you know what the context is here.
55:30
So I yeah, but you said that little word.
55:35
If that's the other thing we have to really be careful when
55:38
we're reading scriptures is pretty too make sure that we are
55:43
seeing the all the words correctly, especially those
55:45
small words. It puts the context in and in in
55:49
a clear context. If we pay attention to that.
55:53
That's what I found in in studying the scriptures and
55:56
that's where I when I first became a believer.
55:59
Liam, you can remember this back in the day when we had Bible
56:02
study till one or two in the morning and we were wrestling
56:05
with these scriptures. And when you just haphazardly
56:10
read the scriptures and don't pay attention to what it's
56:14
actually saying and what these words mean in these little words
56:17
like if and and unto and therefore, and and wherefore all
56:22
these words that actually mean something.
56:26
And that is very important when we're when we're studying the
56:29
scriptures. So.
56:31
Yep, that's right. Damn.
56:33
I don't know if we'll have an opportunity to get to the next
56:36
verse that you have posted first John 219 they went out from
56:39
among us from for they were not of us.
56:42
That's kind of how they would read.
56:44
I think the reformed people would read this passage here in
56:46
the book of Hebrews. Also, we are made partakers,
56:49
Christ of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence
56:52
steadfast to the end. So it's not looking at and and
56:55
they could correct me. Maybe they would see this
56:57
differently than what I'm explaining it as they, the way
57:01
I'm seeing it as they would basically say that the way you
57:04
know, if you're one of the elect is if you continue to persevere
57:08
and you don't know if you're one of the elect until the end.
57:11
And so I can see how the, the Dutch Reformed in our area,
57:15
there's a little town called Norwich.
57:16
They're extreme hyper Calvinists and they don't know if they're
57:19
saved there. There's a Church of 2000 people.
57:22
About 6 or 8 of them will go up for communion because they don't
57:26
know if they're one of the elect.
57:27
They don't know yet if they have persevered till the end, and so
57:30
their confidence is in something other than Christ.
57:33
Their confidence is in their perseverance, or one step
57:36
further. Their confidence, or lack
57:38
thereof, is in the election of God.
57:40
They don't know if they're one of the elect.
57:43
And so I would read this verse to say basically you as a
57:47
believer in Christ, you need to continue to believe, hold fast
57:51
your confidence until the end. Don't stop trusting in Christ,
57:54
whatever you do. And I think a Calvinist, the the
57:58
reasonable ones that I know that I I would regard as Christians
58:01
would say the same thing They would say too, yeah, just keep
58:05
believing. That's your duty.
58:06
You need to keep believing, but ultimately we'll know if you're
58:09
not one of those that kept believing, then we know that you
58:12
weren't one of the elect. And so it's it's this weird
58:15
little game that you have to kind of play to decide who is
58:18
and who is not one of those persevering Saints.
58:22
Clearly, if you're one of the persevering Saints, then you'll
58:25
continue. And if you weren't, then you
58:27
won't continue. But I don't think, again, these
58:29
verses have anything to do with trying to find out who the elect
58:32
is. This is admonishment and
58:34
encouragement for all believers to continue to firmly believe
58:39
until the end. Amen.
58:41
I agree with that, Andrew. Yeah, again, it's good
58:45
perspective. We went through verses last week
58:49
that it's very clear that we got extraordinary security in
58:54
Christ. I mean, he we're pretty safe,
59:00
but how much sense would it make for him and then turn around and
59:03
say, you know, what if you don't believe, I'm still going to, I'm
59:05
still going to, you know, you can as long as you believed in
59:10
the beginning, that's all I care is that you believed in the
59:13
beginning. You know, that wouldn't give us
59:15
very good outlook in life. That would give us a good
59:18
perspective. Let's even take away the idea
59:21
of, Oh, he's not talking about someone that was actually saved
59:24
because that's a good argument to say, well, they were just
59:26
never saved. Well, he said, as you beginning,
59:29
don't go away from it, don't depart from it.
59:31
And he says, actually, some did. I was just, you know, you hearts
59:35
deceive from the sin. They got heart and then they
59:37
kind of departed from that first love of Christ and they they did
59:41
it. They didn't keep like it was in
59:42
the beginning. So it's something that sounds
59:46
like it's up to us. Well, I'm any good dad would say
59:50
that you know how you learned me and who I am.
59:53
Like if my children all of a sudden unless I change.
59:57
But God doesn't change, see. So it works for God to say that.
1:00:01
But even for me, why would I want my kids to all of a sudden?
1:00:05
You know what? I'm glad that you consider
1:00:07
yourself mine for now. But later, I don't really care.
1:00:13
I mean, that's just. Yeah.
1:00:16
I don't. I don't understand why.
1:00:18
I think it's just perspective again, like.
1:00:21
I mean, God's not going to hold someone hostage against their
1:00:25
will. You know, it's, it's like me
1:00:27
saying that, hey, this guy, you know, he worked for me for five
1:00:31
years, but for the last five years he's been doing something
1:00:34
else and I'd still claim him as as my employee.
1:00:37
That would be ridiculous. No, he changed his mind.
1:00:39
He, he decided that he doesn't want to be under my supervision
1:00:44
or guidance or whatever, and he'd rather go do something
1:00:47
else. And I'm of course I'm going to
1:00:49
honor that. Anybody with a right mind would
1:00:52
and. It goes along with the idea of
1:00:55
masters. He says you can't have to.
1:00:57
You're either going to cleave to the one and serve the other or
1:01:00
respect the one more or the other.
1:01:01
What you'll be loyal to 1 like you can't please both.
1:01:05
And I was just thinking about they love the argument about if
1:01:09
you're a son, you can't not be a son.
1:01:12
Even if my, even if my son would leave, it'll still be my son,
1:01:18
still got my DNA. You'll never escape the reality
1:01:21
of being my son. But we have an actual story in
1:01:25
the Bible of the prodigal son that walked out from the
1:01:29
blessing of a great father that would have given him the entire
1:01:33
inheritance. Well, he actually gave him an
1:01:36
inheritance even though he knew he was going to go and blow it.
1:01:39
So I think that's God's heart. I think he gives us choices.
1:01:44
Again, this whole father and son analogy.
1:01:49
If my son was only with me because he was scared of me,
1:01:52
because he was afraid of my fury and because I forcing him to,
1:01:58
I'm making it all his decisions. He doesn't think for himself.
1:02:02
There'd be no honor, there'd be no glory.
1:02:05
He just does what he's told. Then I where would I get glory?
1:02:11
All throughout history of the Bible you can see that God loves
1:02:15
glory. And he's like, if you don't, if
1:02:18
you don't see who I am, look at the mountains.
1:02:23
Yep, look at the fish. Look at all the things that I
1:02:25
made all all of these says I made this, this, this, this, all
1:02:30
the creeping things and all this and that and the horses and the
1:02:32
sea. Like he has to name the stars
1:02:35
and the planets and the trees like I got to.
1:02:37
He names them over and over. Yeah, we get it like, and
1:02:40
they're awesome, you know? But then we we somehow think
1:02:46
that he's going to take away the glory of us getting to know him
1:02:52
and we choosing him, that we're going to take away God's glory
1:02:55
in that it is his glory that we turn to him.
1:02:59
That we saw his goodness, that we saw his works, that we saw
1:03:03
his creation. We recognized his mountains.
1:03:05
We recognized the rivers and the seas and all that is in it, all
1:03:08
the creeping things up on the earth.
1:03:10
We saw that and we were like, that's gone.
1:03:13
He's my creator. And he goes, Yep, they're
1:03:16
getting it. That glorifies his name.
1:03:18
Yeah. That's right.
1:03:22
We're running along on time. But Dan, I know you had
1:03:24
something important you wanted to say.
1:03:25
Yeah. I just want to reiterate that
1:03:27
because we believe we choose and because we believe we have to
1:03:31
continue to believing it. We're not negating the idea that
1:03:36
God is our caretaker and that he is keeping us in the faith.
1:03:39
He uses these very kinds of things to provoke us, to cause
1:03:44
us to continue in the faith. So it's not he, it's not that
1:03:47
he's uninvolved. And he's like, OK, if you want
1:03:49
to be saved, you got to keep believing Firms in the end, he,
1:03:53
he's going to continue to provoke us.
1:03:54
He's going to continue to work with us.
1:03:56
He, we cast our cares upon him because he cares for us.
1:04:00
He's our caretaker. And so he he will keep us.
1:04:03
You know, he, he's not just leaving us alone.
1:04:06
And so it's a it there's a beautiful dance that happens
1:04:09
there, but God will never interfere with your personal
1:04:13
autonomy. He's never going to come in and
1:04:15
turn screws and force anyone to do anything.
1:04:18
But he's offering the gospel and grace freely to all.
1:04:21
And then he walks along with all those that choose to believe and
1:04:25
he preserves them to the end. So there's, there's some truths
1:04:28
in these verses. It's just the matter of how
1:04:31
obviously there's truth in these verses, but in this perseverance
1:04:33
of the Saints concept, if you see it as God walking together
1:04:38
with you and keeping you right. Yeah, that's right.
1:04:42
I wanted I wanted to say that too.
1:04:44
As we're closing what we're saying here is not against what
1:04:48
we were talking about the security last week.
1:04:50
It's it's with it. It is part of the same
1:04:53
discussion. God does help us walk after him,
1:05:00
but it but it yeah, I agree. Dan said it very well when he
1:05:02
said that he doesn't go in there and turn screws and force us to
1:05:05
do anything. But anyway, we are long on time.
1:05:09
I forgot to watch my clock, but I appreciate your input.
1:05:12
We're going to finish this and get on into the next ones next
1:05:16
week. So if you haven't listened to
1:05:19
the first part of this really important part, last week's,
1:05:23
it's on our YouTube and our podcast and all that stuff.
1:05:27
So go check it out if you haven't and see what God talks
1:05:31
about this, how we walk after him, how we could be secure in
1:05:36
him, and how we could be faithful and make a difference
1:05:41
in this world. God bless you for your time.
1:05:43
Have a good week and tell someone about Jesus.
1:05:47
God bless you, we'll see you.