Latest / The Starting Block / Bitcoin market update /w Bitfinex, Moca Network goes live

Transcript

Bitcoin market update /w Bitfinex, Moca Network goes live · The Starting Block

• 0:06
  Welcome back to the starting block.
• 0:08
  It is a Tuesday, and we've got a
• 0:09
  jam-packed show today.
• 0:10
  Two guests joining us.
• 0:12
  We've got Jesse Knudsen, who's head
• 0:14
  of operations at Bitfinex
• 0:16
  Securities, joining us for the
• 0:17
  Market Pulse this afternoon.
• 0:18
  Then we've a very special
• 0:19
  announcement with Kenneth Sheck
• 0:21
  from Mocha Network.
• 0:22
  I'm not going to say any more than
• 0:23
  that, because I might be
• 0:25
  breaking the embargo.
• 0:26
  So we'll stop there.
• 0:28
  If this is your first time watching
• 0:29
  us, welcome wherever you're watching
• 0:31
  us. If you're on YouTube, please go
• 0:33
  ahead and subscribe to our channel.
• 0:34
  And if you're joining us on X this
• 0:36
  afternoon or morning, give us
• 0:38
  a like and a retweet so more people
• 0:39
  can join us for today's show.
• 0:41
  Really looking forward to having
• 0:43
  our two guests on.
• 0:44
  But of course, if you've never been
• 0:46
  with us on the show, we start things
• 0:47
  off with the block briefing, which
• 0:49
  is our breakdown of the top stories
• 0:50
  you need to know in the last 24
• 0:52
  hours curated from
• 0:54
  our editorial team at the block
• 0:56
  who are really at the cutting edge
• 0:57
  of what's happening across Bitcoin
• 1:00
  and crypto markets.
• 1:02
  So without further ado, Let's jump
• 1:03
  into.
• 1:04
  Today's top headlines starting
• 1:07
  over in the United States
• 1:10
  where Citi is going
• 1:12
  deeper with Coinbase.
• 1:13
  The banking giant is expanding its
• 1:15
  partnership to let businesses move
• 1:17
  stable coins as easily as
• 1:19
  dollars. Coinbase will tap Citi's
• 1:21
  virtual account wallet to power its
• 1:23
  own virtual accounts product,
• 1:24
  automatically converting incoming
• 1:26
  funds into stable coins.
• 1:28
  On the flip side, Citi institutional
• 1:30
  clients can now accept stable coin
• 1:31
  payments through the Spring by Citi
• 1:33
  platform.
• 1:34
  With Coinbase running the crypto
• 1:35
  rails and settling back to Fiat.
• 1:37
  It's launching in the US
• 1:39
  first, aimed at corporate clients
• 1:41
  who want digital asset functionality
• 1:43
  without touching crypto directly.
• 1:46
  And staying in the U.S., a new
• 1:47
  Senate report puts Tether's
• 1:49
  USDT at the
• 1:51
  heart of Iran's shadow banking
• 1:53
  network. The 28-page investigation
• 1:55
  led by Democrat Richard Blumenthal
• 1:57
  analyzed blockchain data from 846
• 2:00
  sanctioned linked wallets and found
• 2:02
  80. 7% of those tied
• 2:04
  to Terra financing moved
• 2:06
  money primarily in USDT.
• 2:09
  The report accuses Tether of
• 2:10
  repeatedly failing to freeze flake
• 2:12
  wallets, and Tether pushed back
• 2:13
  hard, saying it supported nearly
• 2:15
  $550 million dollars in Iran-linked
• 2:18
  freezes over the past year and
• 2:19
  argued public blockchains actually
• 2:21
  give authorities more visibility
• 2:22
  than cash ever would.
• 2:24
  So both sides of the story there.
• 2:26
  And if you missed it, we did sit
• 2:27
  down with Tether CEO Paolo
• 2:29
  Arduino a few weeks ago right here
• 2:31
  on the starting block.
• 2:32
  If you missed that conversation, you
• 2:33
  can go and find it on the block's
• 2:35
  YouTube channel or on our
• 2:37
  ex account.
• 2:38
  Moving on to our next story,
• 2:39
  California is cracking down on
• 2:41
  political meme coins.
• 2:42
  Governor Gavin Newsom signed
• 2:43
  assembly bill 2409,
• 2:46
  banning state officials from
• 2:47
  launching their own tokens and
• 2:48
  blocking companies from listing
• 2:50
  coins that use an official likeness.
• 2:52
  And he took direct aim at President
• 2:54
  Trump whose 2025 meme
• 2:56
  coin crashed after early gains.
• 2:58
  Reportedly costing nearly a million
• 2:59
  investors over $3 billion,
• 3:02
  while Trump pocketed around 636
• 3:04
  million.
• 3:05
  Newsom said no officials should
• 3:06
  profit off their office.
• 3:08
  He also signed a second bill
• 3:09
  targeting crypto money laundering
• 3:11
  and setting clearer
• 3:13
  restitution rules for scam victims.
• 3:16
  Then another story involving
• 3:18
  Coinbase. They just completed their
• 3:20
  derivative stack.
• 3:21
  The CFTC has approved Coinbase
• 3:23
  Clearing as a registered derivatives
• 3:25
  clearing organization.
• 3:27
  The final piece alongside its
• 3:29
  existing futures and brokerage
• 3:31
  licenses.
• 3:32
  That means Coinbase can now create,
• 3:34
  settle, and clear fully
• 3:35
  collateralized futures, options, and
• 3:37
  swaps entirely in-house on
• 3:39
  a USDC native clearing house.
• 3:41
  The catch here, it only covers fully
• 3:43
  collateralize products, so leveraged
• 3:45
  and margined derivatives will
• 3:47
  still run through outside partners
• 3:49
  for now.
• 3:50
  Still, it's a major step towards
• 3:51
  Coinbase controlling its own
• 3:52
  derivatives pipeline from end
• 3:55
  to end.
• 3:56
  And our final headline today, Tom
• 3:57
  Lee's Bitmine crossed a major
• 3:59
  milestone.
• 4:00
  More than six million ETH on its
• 4:01
  balance sheet worth about $16.1
• 4:04
  billion after scooping up
• 4:06
  another 17,362
• 4:09
  ETH.
• 4:10
  Add in cash, securities, and other
• 4:11
  holdings, and the company's total
• 4:13
  war chest hits $17.2
• 4:15
  billion.
• 4:16
  That puts Bitmime at 98%
• 4:19
  of its goal to own 5%
• 4:21
  of all circulating Ethereum within
• 4:23
  15 months.
• 4:24
  It's also staked over five million
• 4:26
  ETH on track for a
• 4:28
  projected 358
• 4:30
  million in annual staking revenue,
• 4:33
  cementing its spot as the largest
• 4:35
  public ETH treasury.
• 4:37
  And that is it for our top stories
• 4:38
  today. We're gonna be moving
• 4:39
  straight into the
• 4:42
  market polls today, and it's a great
• 4:43
  pleasure to welcome Jesse Knudsen,
• 4:45
  who is head of operations at
• 4:47
  Bitfinex Securities.
• 4:48
  Jesse, it's great to have you with
• 4:49
  us on the show.
• 4:50
  First things first, how are you?
• 4:53
  Very good. Thank you for having me,
• 4:54
  Gareth.
• 4:55
  Yeah, it's great to have you here.
• 4:57
  I think just for the audience out
• 4:58
  there that don't know too much about
• 4:59
  you and Bitfinex Securities, can you
• 5:01
  give us a quick TLDR on
• 5:03
  the company?
• 5:04
  Five year anniversary recently
• 5:05
  celebrated and it doesn't
• 5:07
  seem like you guys are stopping
• 5:08
  anytime soon, especially considering
• 5:10
  the massive push around the world
• 5:11
  for tokenized securities on chain.
• 5:15
  Yeah, I think it wasn't always that
• 5:16
  way that was it I think back to you
• 5:17
  know, 2021, when we first started
• 5:19
  this, it, it definitely
• 5:21
  wasn't the consensus view that this
• 5:23
  is the direction that capital
• 5:24
  markets would evolve.
• 5:25
  But I think increasingly, that's
• 5:27
  the way things are going.
• 5:28
  So it is really exciting to have
• 5:29
  that kind of viewpoint kind of catch
• 5:30
  up with the vision that, you know
• 5:32
  Paulo and our senior management had
• 5:34
  five years ago.
• 5:35
  So Bitfinex Securities, we are
• 5:37
  the capital raise and secondary
• 5:39
  market trading platform within the
• 5:41
  tether and BitfiniX kind of
• 5:42
  ecosystem.
• 5:43
  We work with a number of
• 5:45
  tokenization platforms, but our
• 5:47
  default is to work with Hadron,
• 5:49
  which is Tether's tokenization
• 5:51
  platform. But we've also worked with
• 5:52
  a number of others, Stalker
• 5:55
  out of Luxembourg, Control Alt,
• 5:57
  NextBridge out of El Salvador.
• 5:59
  And we've got a total of about $500
• 6:01
  million worth of assets on the
• 6:03
  platform right now with a pretty
• 6:05
  wide range of assets
• 6:07
  from UST bills to alternative
• 6:09
  assets like litigation finance,
• 6:11
  Bitcoin mining, hash rate contracts.
• 6:13
  We've recently, just a few weeks
• 6:14
  ago, listed our first public equity
• 6:16
  tokenized Bitcoin treasury company
• 6:18
  products, and then we've got a
• 6:20
  really exciting pipeline kind of
• 6:21
  going into the second half of this
• 6:22
  year.
• 6:24
  Yeah, I mean, the
• 6:26
  notes I have here says $500 million
• 6:28
  in listed assets across 12
• 6:30
  investment products and 27
• 6:32
  trading pairs.
• 6:34
  So clearly a very big player in the
• 6:36
  space already.
• 6:37
  And again, congrats on the five-year
• 6:38
  anniversary.
• 6:39
  Let's talk about the future of
• 6:41
  tokenized markets.
• 6:42
  Last week,
• 6:45
  we were in New York for Avalanche
• 6:46
  Summit, and we had
• 6:48
  some really interesting
• 6:49
  conversations with the likes of
• 6:50
  former CFTC chair.
• 6:52
  Chris Giancarlo, who was kind of
• 6:53
  saying to me off air that
• 6:55
  he would anticipate that we would
• 6:57
  have 24, five
• 6:59
  markets in the next year in the US
• 7:01
  and maybe even sooner than we think,
• 7:03
  24, seven markets.
• 7:05
  And that is because of the
• 7:06
  blockchain protocols that we have
• 7:08
  today and all these assets
• 7:10
  moving on chain.
• 7:11
  First things first, do you agree
• 7:13
  with that sentiment and do you think
• 7:14
  that we might be moving to
• 7:16
  blockchain infrastructure sooner
• 7:18
  rather than later?
• 7:19
  Across the board in terms of TradFi
• 7:21
  and could we see that happening
• 7:23
  in totality in the next year or
• 7:25
  two?
• 7:26
  I don't know about the time frame
• 7:28
  exactly, but I do feel that that's
• 7:29
  kind of I think it's inevitable, you
• 7:31
  know, just because of the
• 7:32
  technological advantages and
• 7:33
  benefits. I think anyone who's used
• 7:35
  to trading Bitcoin on platforms
• 7:37
  like Bitfinex, where it's, you know
• 7:39
  24 7365, it's real
• 7:41
  time settlement, you can withdraw
• 7:43
  your assets, you can move it over
• 7:45
  to, you know, whatever your other
• 7:46
  platform is for arbitrage.
• 7:48
  That's kind of the benchmark now.
• 7:49
  So it does feel a little bit strange
• 7:51
  that conventional markets aren't
• 7:53
  quite there.
• 7:54
  My investment banking and
• 7:56
  trading experience was here in
• 7:58
  Taiwan.
• 7:59
  We trade nine till 1.30.
• 8:01
  So if you sell your TSMC on Friday,
• 8:03
  you don't get your cash until next
• 8:04
  week. We don't do weekends.
• 8:06
  We do not do Chinese New Year's.
• 8:07
  So, if you're used to trading
• 8:09
  Bitcoin, all of that just seems a
• 8:11
  little bit kind of primitive.
• 8:13
  So tokenization sounds very fancy.
• 8:15
  It sounds kind of revolutionary,
• 8:18
  but I think it's probably more
• 8:19
  evolutionary. Right?
• 8:20
  It's just the next step in how the
• 8:22
  infrastructure behind capital
• 8:23
  markets I think is going to evolve
• 8:25
  or grow.
• 8:26
  How important is 24-7 trading?
• 8:28
  And do you think it could help us
• 8:30
  sort of survive a future financial
• 8:32
  crisis, like the likes
• 8:34
  that we saw 15 years ago?
• 8:37
  If we're all on chain and we
• 8:38
  have the ability to do this
• 8:40
  24-seven, is it gonna
• 8:42
  make things more stable?
• 8:44
  Yeah, I think so.
• 8:45
  I think it just helps for more
• 8:47
  efficient price discovery, right?
• 8:48
  So the more you see this with
• 8:50
  Bitcoin now is that, you know,
• 8:51
  Bitcoin often has big moves on the
• 8:52
  weekend, not because people, you
• 8:54
  knows, particularly really want to
• 8:56
  trade Bitcoin on the weekends
• 8:57
  because they trade what they can.
• 8:58
  So something happens, you in,
• 9:00
  you one of the many conflicts going
• 9:02
  on around the world right now.
• 9:03
  And then people will sell Bitcoin
• 9:05
  as a hedge if they can sell like
• 9:07
  directly what they are holding or
• 9:08
  invested in in their portfolio.
• 9:10
  I think they'd much rather do that
• 9:11
  than to try and hedge it with
• 9:13
  another currency. But at the moment,
• 9:14
  that's the best tool that they have.
• 9:16
  So I think in the world we live in
• 9:18
  right now, the digital world,
• 9:20
  I think that's something that
• 9:21
  probably inevitably has to happen.
• 9:23
  And in many ways, you look back at
• 9:25
  finance, and it's been really kind
• 9:26
  of resistant, like almost uniquely
• 9:28
  resistant to technological change.
• 9:30
  Every other industry has been
• 9:31
  profoundly impacted by the Internet.
• 9:33
  And I think, until tokenization,
• 9:35
  you could make the argument that all
• 9:37
  the technological changes that have
• 9:38
  happened in the financial services
• 9:40
  industry have really been kind of
• 9:41
  like superficial, like, you know,
• 9:43
  online banking and stuff like that,
• 9:44
  but really how trades fundamentally
• 9:46
  happen and settle and I
• 9:49
  think really very little has changed
• 9:50
  in the last couple of decades.
• 9:52
  I think another interesting piece
• 9:54
  of this for me has been trying to
• 9:56
  unpack the actual
• 9:58
  implications for
• 10:00
  TradFi banks that
• 10:03
  in the past have been the
• 10:05
  plumbing that powers stock
• 10:07
  markets around the world.
• 10:08
  If we get to a future that is
• 10:10
  largely on chain and happening on
• 10:12
  blockchains, does
• 10:14
  this completely disintermediate and
• 10:16
  make irrelevant the depositories
• 10:18
  transfer agents that are that are
• 10:20
  currently the the prime pieces of
• 10:22
  the plumbing and is
• 10:24
  there potential catastrophe in that
• 10:26
  or do you think it'll be a slow
• 10:27
  moving process where
• 10:30
  the incumbents just kind of
• 10:31
  shift across to the necessary
• 10:33
  protocols that they and tick the
• 10:34
  boxes.
• 10:35
  Well, I think that we probably are
• 10:37
  the pirate ship, right?
• 10:38
  I think we are like the ETF guys
• 10:40
  from like 15 years ago.
• 10:41
  So we're pushing for that change.
• 10:44
  Having worked in investment
• 10:46
  banking myself, I know that there is
• 10:48
  a strong interest in innovation, but
• 10:50
  only as long as nothing actually
• 10:51
  changes.
• 10:52
  So I think the actual change will
• 10:54
  come from players like ourselves.
• 10:56
  And I think, you know, that means
• 10:57
  disintermediation.
• 10:58
  That's part of this. It's about
• 10:59
  streamlining capital market
• 11:00
  ecosystem, right.
• 11:01
  And. So a lot of the roles and
• 11:03
  processes that we have now, they've
• 11:05
  evolved organically over the last
• 11:07
  100 years of securities law.
• 11:10
  And tokenization offers a really
• 11:11
  good opportunity to take the
• 11:13
  technology that we now in 2026
• 11:15
  and rethink things.
• 11:16
  And I think that's why, probably
• 11:18
  counter-intuitively, I think this is
• 11:20
  a big opportunity for emerging
• 11:22
  at frontier markets.
• 11:23
  So we're licensed in two
• 11:25
  jurisdictions that are definitely
• 11:26
  not mainstream financial centers.
• 11:28
  We're in the AIFC and Astana
• 11:30
  Kazakhstan.
• 11:31
  We're in El Salvador.
• 11:32
  And I think for places like this,
• 11:34
  they can reimagine capital markets,
• 11:36
  because financial services are a
• 11:37
  much smaller percentage of GDP, and
• 11:39
  they can start with the technology
• 11:40
  that we have now in 2026 and
• 11:42
  apply it to markets.
• 11:44
  I mean, I think that's part of the
• 11:45
  success behind what's happening in
• 11:47
  ADGM and Dubai and
• 11:49
  the UAE as well.
• 11:50
  So I do feel like this is a big
• 11:51
  opportunity for some of the new
• 11:53
  financial centers to kind of apply
• 11:55
  the technology and maybe leapfrog
• 11:57
  some of the conventional players.
• 11:59
  Yeah, I think one of the things that
• 12:00
  stands out to me is making
• 12:02
  open access to markets
• 12:04
  around the world.
• 12:06
  And if you move on to this, you
• 12:07
  know, sort of new age blockchain
• 12:08
  based infrastructure,
• 12:10
  it means anyone anywhere around the
• 12:11
  word with a smartphone can access
• 12:14
  markets, almost.
• 12:15
  Yeah, you don't access these markets
• 12:17
  and, you know, yeah,
• 12:19
  essentially trade whatever they want
• 12:20
  to trade.
• 12:21
  Do you see that as one of the key
• 12:22
  kind of pieces here is just
• 12:24
  unlocking equitable access to
• 12:26
  markets around the
• 12:28
  100% like banking the unbanked
• 12:30
  is very cliche, but you know,
• 12:32
  we want to provide broker services
• 12:33
  to the unbrokered, right?
• 12:35
  So slightly different.
• 12:37
  No, but these are securities, right.
• 12:39
  So I think that there are legal and
• 12:40
  regulatory constraints, right, one
• 12:42
  of them is that, you know you can't
• 12:43
  have securities, you can sell
• 12:44
  securities to OFAC nations.
• 12:46
  You know, you've got for us we have
• 12:47
  restrictions on the US and there's
• 12:49
  obviously SEC registration and
• 12:50
  things like that.
• 12:51
  So I think a key part of making this
• 12:53
  whole industry sustainable and
• 12:55
  viable from a regulatory perspective
• 12:57
  is that you need to have transfer
• 12:59
  restrictions at the protocol level.
• 13:02
  So I that's an important thing.
• 13:03
  Companies need to know who's on
• 13:04
  their cap table.
• 13:07
  I think probably assets need
• 13:09
  to trade on reputable,
• 13:11
  regulated venues that have
• 13:12
  reasonable market manipulation
• 13:14
  mechanisms put in place, things
• 13:16
  like that. But I do think if you're
• 13:17
  on a whitelist and you've been
• 13:19
  approved, then you and.
• 13:20
  People should be able to take their
• 13:21
  assets off the platform, move them
• 13:23
  to other platforms for arbitrage,
• 13:25
  like trade them peer to peer.
• 13:26
  I think all of that stuff, like a
• 13:27
  very, once you're there, it's a very
• 13:29
  low friction kind of Bitcoin or
• 13:30
  other like user experience.
• 13:33
  My final question to you,
• 13:35
  when it comes to sort of
• 13:36
  bringing on board all sorts of
• 13:38
  different real world assets,
• 13:40
  have you seen Bitfinex Securities
• 13:41
  kind of be the home for anything
• 13:44
  bespoke or interesting that didn't
• 13:46
  quite make it onto Wall Street in
• 13:48
  the past?
• 13:49
  And do you think that's also another
• 13:50
  sort of superpower of this
• 13:52
  decentralized approach to
• 13:54
  capital markets, equities,
• 13:56
  securities, debt on
• 13:58
  chain?
• 14:00
  I do 100%.
• 14:00
  So I think there's a lot of
• 14:01
  interesting assets out there that
• 14:03
  are kind of like, you
• 14:05
  know, walled off to professional or
• 14:06
  sophisticated investors.
• 14:07
  And I think we can bring those to a
• 14:09
  broader group of investors,
• 14:10
  sometimes with like certain
• 14:11
  professional restrictions on that,
• 14:13
  and sometimes available to a broader
• 14:14
  market.
• 14:15
  You know, things I'm thinking of
• 14:16
  like the the blockstream mining
• 14:18
  note, which was a tokenized hashrate
• 14:19
  contract, I think that was a really
• 14:21
  innovative product
• 14:23
  with the first one, and then the
• 14:24
  one that we have list on the
• 14:25
  platform now as well.
• 14:27
  Litigation finance, we have that up
• 14:29
  on the platform. I think that's
• 14:30
  super interesting.
• 14:32
  Microfinancing bonds,
• 14:34
  there's really like a long list of
• 14:36
  kind of really interesting asset
• 14:37
  classes that we can offer investors
• 14:40
  to kind of diversify their
• 14:41
  portfolios.
• 14:43
  How do you get those people to come
• 14:44
  and do it though?
• 14:45
  Do you think that there's a
• 14:46
  significant barrier to entry and
• 14:48
  what is it?
• 14:49
  On the issuer side, I don't think
• 14:51
  people are very interested in doing
• 14:53
  the tokenized issuances.
• 14:54
  So I think on the issuance side,
• 14:55
  there's a lot of people that want to
• 14:56
  do issuancies. I think the kind of
• 14:58
  bridge we need to cross right now is
• 15:00
  more on the investor side, right?
• 15:02
  To breaking out into like
• 15:04
  traditional private wealth, high
• 15:05
  net worth type of people, like
• 15:07
  Bitfinex, our pedigree, like our
• 15:09
  client bases, kind of like the OG
• 15:11
  Bitcoin people, crypto high net
• 15:12
  worth.
• 15:13
  And that's a kind of different type
• 15:15
  of investor. So I think, yeah, we
• 15:16
  also Interestingly, the
• 15:18
  TradFi guys, they want access to
• 15:19
  those investors because they have
• 15:21
  different time horizons, different
• 15:22
  strategies, a very different risk
• 15:24
  tolerance.
• 15:25
  But we also want to have investors
• 15:27
  access to the moms and pops that are
• 15:29
  writing 10, 20, 50k checks
• 15:31
  and that are looking for stable
• 15:33
  products with good return profiles,
• 15:35
  things like that.
• 15:37
  Lassie, it's going to be a great
• 15:39
  pleasure to bring the starting block
• 15:40
  to Lugano in October.
• 15:43
  Bitfinex Securities is hosting the
• 15:44
  Future of Capital Markets Summit.
• 15:45
  I'm really looking forward to coming
• 15:46
  there and broadcasting live.
• 15:47
  Can you tell us a little bit more
• 15:48
  about what people can expect of that
• 15:50
  event and
• 15:53
  why they should come and join us
• 15:54
  there?
• 15:56
  Yeah, no, that's a great event.
• 15:57
  We've been doing these for a number
• 15:58
  of years already. So we do want to
• 16:00
  plan B in El Salvador, one in
• 16:01
  Lugano. This is our biggest one yet.
• 16:03
  We're teaming up with Blockstream
• 16:04
  Capital Partners to do it.
• 16:05
  So the content is going to be
• 16:07
  Bitcoin tokenized securities
• 16:09
  and digital asset content.
• 16:12
  We've got really like a really good
• 16:14
  list of speakers, our best list of
• 16:15
  speakers ever. We got Paolo, we've
• 16:17
  got Adam Back, we've Got Adam,
• 16:19
  the CEO of RWXYZ.
• 16:20
  We've Got CEOs from three Bitcoin
• 16:22
  treasury companies.
• 16:24
  We've got a lot of interesting
• 16:25
  people within our ecosystem, the
• 16:27
  head of Hadron, the head of
• 16:29
  our regulatory and
• 16:32
  regulator interaction department.
• 16:34
  So a lot kind of really interesting
• 16:35
  people, I think that are on the
• 16:37
  front lines of this stuff and can
• 16:38
  kind of offer you an insider view of
• 16:39
  what's happening in the world of
• 16:41
  tokenized securities and then kind
• 16:43
  of Bitcoin as well more broadly.
• 16:45
  Beautiful, and if you're watching
• 16:46
  the stream and are interested in
• 16:48
  coming to Lugano to check out that
• 16:50
  conference, the starting block will
• 16:52
  be live as a media partner
• 16:54
  at the conference exclusively.
• 16:56
  That is in Lugana.
• 16:57
  The date is the 22nd
• 17:00
  of October. You can go and find more
• 17:01
  details and register for the event
• 17:03
  if you want to, thefutureofcapitalmarkets.com.
• 17:06
  Jesse, thanks so much for taking the
• 17:08
  time to chat to us.
• 17:09
  We look forward to catching up with
• 17:10
  you in person in Ligano in a
• 17:12
  couple of months' time.
• 17:13
  Sounds good, appreciate it, Gareth,
• 17:15
  thank you.
• 17:15
  Thank you very much.
• 17:17
  We're gonna be taking a short break
• 17:18
  and then we will be back with the
• 17:20
  hot seat. We have the
• 17:22
  CEO of Mocha Network joining us.
• 17:23
  Don't go away, we'll be right back.
• 19:35
  Welcome back to the starting block.
• 19:36
  Thank you for staying with us.
• 19:37
  We just wrapped up our block
• 19:38
  briefing and market poll segments.
• 19:40
  We had Bitfinex head of operations,
• 19:42
  Bitfiniq Securities head of
• 19:43
  Operations, Jesse Knudsen with us,
• 19:45
  if you missed that, you can go back
• 19:46
  on the stream.
• 19:47
  We're moving into the hot seat
• 19:48
  segment and it's a great
• 19:50
  pleasure to tell you that we're
• 19:51
  gonna be announcing some
• 19:53
  exclusive news.
• 19:55
  And to do that, we've got the CEO of
• 19:56
  Mocha Network joining us, Kenneth
• 19:58
  Sheck.
• 19:59
  Kenneth, thanks so much for taking
• 20:00
  the time to join us.
• 20:02
  This morning, this afternoon, this
• 20:04
  evening for you.
• 20:05
  You're based in Hong Kong.
• 20:06
  First things first, how are you doing?
• 20:08
  I'm great, thanks for having me.
• 20:10
  Yeah, let's get straight into the
• 20:12
  big announcement.
• 20:12
  MochaChain Mainnet is going live.
• 20:14
  This is the exclusive announcement
• 20:16
  of that.
• 20:17
  Most of the other athletes will be
• 20:18
  putting this news out in the next 20
• 20:20
  minutes or so.
• 20:21
  So I've got myself lucky to get
• 20:23
  you on the show and talk about this
• 20:25
  before the news actually drops
• 20:26
  officially around the world.
• 20:28
  Can you give us a TLDR of the
• 20:30
  Mocha network, what it is and
• 20:32
  what Mainnet going live actually
• 20:34
  means for users across the world?
• 20:36
  Sure, what MoCA
• 20:38
  network is building is essentially
• 20:40
  a digital identity infrastructure
• 20:42
  for enterprises,
• 20:44
  humans, and agents to share data in
• 20:46
  a privacy preserved and a
• 20:48
  compliant manner.
• 20:49
  And if you think about most of the
• 20:51
  time when the network is being
• 20:53
  built, the most important layer
• 20:55
  of that is enabling data sharing.
• 20:57
  So MochaChain is
• 20:59
  actually that underlying
• 21:00
  infrastructure to enable
• 21:03
  data storage.
• 21:04
  It's all decentralized data storage
• 21:06
  hosted by multiple decentralized
• 21:08
  nodes.
• 21:09
  And what that means is your
• 21:11
  data, your agent's data, the
• 21:13
  enterprise's data can be always
• 21:14
  available and can be shareable in a
• 21:16
  privacy-preserved way.
• 21:18
  And it's a purpose-built
• 21:20
  layer one blockchain, and
• 21:22
  what that means is not a general
• 21:24
  asset chain, and I think, to
• 21:26
  be honest, like in the past, there's
• 21:28
  many different chains, probably
• 21:29
  hundreds of chains being launched,
• 21:31
  but it's general purpose chain.
• 21:33
  What we have been building for
• 21:36
  months or even years is actually
• 21:38
  very, very focused on digital
• 21:40
  identity.
• 21:41
  It's in order to facilitate and
• 21:43
  empower businesses to build their
• 21:45
  network and sharing data, you do
• 21:47
  need very specific configuration
• 21:50
  and development and also
• 21:52
  fitting the different kinds of
• 21:53
  compliance standards as I'm all
• 21:55
  for the road
• 21:57
  So there you have it.
• 21:57
  Mocha chain is officially live on
• 21:59
  mainnet. Congratulations.
• 22:01
  Can we talk a little bit more about
• 22:02
  the actual use cases that you
• 22:03
  envision here?
• 22:04
  As I understand it, Air is
• 22:06
  the Mocha-based integration layer
• 22:08
  for these identity payments and
• 22:10
  loyalty systems that
• 22:12
  you're gonna be rolling out.
• 22:13
  But can you talk a bit more about
• 22:15
  some initial partnerships, some
• 22:16
  initial use cases that you see
• 22:18
  coming to the fore because as you
• 22:20
  mentioned, this is kind of focused
• 22:21
  on companies out there.
• 22:23
  Is it gonna be loyalty programs?
• 22:24
  Is it going to be...
• 22:26
  Passports, digital identity systems,
• 22:29
  give us a little more detail.
• 22:31
  Yeah, so we decided to launch
• 22:33
  now. So I guess maybe take a step
• 22:35
  back and why now, right?
• 22:37
  So because we have been in private
• 22:39
  mainnet for a while.
• 22:40
  And why now is the perfect
• 22:42
  moment.
• 22:43
  I'm not sure if everyone is
• 22:44
  listening or paying attention to
• 22:46
  the news and what's happening in the
• 22:48
  world right now. But you see
• 22:50
  government IDs launching EID
• 22:52
  all over the world in the UK and
• 22:55
  in Europe and so on.
• 22:56
  You see new regulations coming in
• 22:58
  all around digital identity.
• 23:00
  And you also see like a
• 23:02
  lot of agentic traffic happening
• 23:04
  as well and we can jump to that a
• 23:06
  little bit later.
• 23:07
  That's a very exciting and very
• 23:09
  interesting topic and why like
• 23:10
  digital identity and fair public
• 23:12
  credentials is going to get like a
• 23:13
  hockey stick growth and
• 23:15
  that's how we see it at least
• 23:17
  right. So the use cases is really
• 23:19
  around we work with enterprises
• 23:21
  such as like telecom companies,
• 23:23
  we work, with loyalty programs, we
• 23:25
  work with airlines, we've worked
• 23:26
  with ticketing platforms,
• 23:29
  entertainment grids.
• 23:30
  All of these companies are
• 23:32
  sharing one common theme, and that
• 23:34
  common theme is consumer businesses.
• 23:36
  It's all building around
• 23:38
  the users.
• 23:39
  And all these companies,
• 23:41
  in order for them to work with
• 23:43
  their broader ecosystem and grow
• 23:45
  their ecosystem, or even monetize
• 23:47
  the distribution and the user base
• 23:49
  that they have, they need a layer
• 23:51
  to actually share data in
• 23:53
  a compliant way.
• 23:55
  And GDPR, or GDPR-like,
• 23:57
  such as, for example, in India is
• 23:59
  DPD-P. There's a bunch of
• 24:00
  regulations that are similar to
• 24:02
  GDPR.
• 24:03
  And also, Apple, Google
• 24:05
  are removing cookies.
• 24:06
  There is no proper
• 24:08
  way to share data anymore, right?
• 24:10
  So. For example, we work with
• 24:13
  travel companies.
• 24:15
  They got a lot of travelers' data.
• 24:16
  When those travelers actually go
• 24:18
  outside to
• 24:20
  different countries, and they go to
• 24:22
  different hotels, they go different
• 24:24
  cruises.
• 24:25
  Those cruises and hotels and
• 24:27
  different merchants are not able to
• 24:28
  verify their data, their travelers'
• 24:30
  data. You can imagine this
• 24:33
  problem would be even
• 24:34
  worse when agent
• 24:36
  come into the picture.
• 24:37
  Because if you're a human clicking
• 24:39
  buttons and you're the human
• 24:41
  physically visiting a merchant
• 24:43
  or hotels, you can always try
• 24:45
  to verify them one way or the other.
• 24:47
  But then imagine when your agent is
• 24:50
  acting on behalf of you,
• 24:51
  then basically that agent It's just
• 24:53
  a bot with random like.
• 24:55
  Data center IP,
• 24:57
  right? They no one, you can't really
• 25:00
  prove who you are and you
• 25:02
  don't get what you deserve and the
• 25:03
  businesses cannot create experiences
• 25:06
  around you.
• 25:07
  So it's really around those
• 25:09
  kinds of views because we do have
• 25:10
  back-to-back partnership
• 25:11
  announcements that would be coming
• 25:13
  out starting from here.
• 25:15
  And the first one will be coming
• 25:16
  around in 2049.
• 25:18
  And we're very excited for that.
• 25:21
  I want to talk to you a little bit
• 25:22
  about the AI agent piece, because
• 25:24
  obviously that's all the
• 25:26
  rage right now. Everyone's spinning
• 25:27
  up AI agents on different models
• 25:29
  and using them to automate all
• 25:31
  sorts of parts of their lives,
• 25:32
  whether that's trading or
• 25:34
  just normal sort of workflow tasks.
• 25:36
  But as you've mentioned before,
• 25:38
  AI agents can't do KYC.
• 25:41
  They are not humans.
• 25:42
  They don't have verifiable identity.
• 25:45
  However, most of them are linked to
• 25:47
  a human who is...
• 25:49
  Putting them out there into the
• 25:51
  world to do these kind of things.
• 25:53
  Is that the missing piece of the
• 25:54
  puzzle here, and how important is it
• 25:55
  to have sort of a almost like a
• 25:57
  ZK proof, you know, zero knowledge
• 25:59
  proof, privacy preserving
• 26:02
  kind of tech stack,
• 26:04
  decentralized approach to do
• 26:06
  this well across different
• 26:07
  blockchains and different networks?
• 26:09
  Yeah, great question.
• 26:11
  So there are three different ways to
• 26:13
  verify data with MochaChain.
• 26:15
  One way is through zero-knowledge
• 26:17
  proof.
• 26:18
  Second way is what we call the
• 26:20
  selective disclosure.
• 26:21
  So the user can selectively disclose
• 26:23
  certain data.
• 26:24
  And the third one is full
• 26:25
  disclosure. You can disclose your
• 26:27
  full schema of the data.
• 26:29
  And in any different ways,
• 26:31
  it's really up to the users and
• 26:33
  really because the user Owns
• 26:35
  and control all the data that
• 26:36
  they're sharing And in
• 26:38
  the agentic road is going to
• 26:40
  be if I'm not sure if you used a
• 26:43
  product called instinct
• 26:45
  It's basically like personally.
• 26:47
  Yeah, it was like a super hot.
• 26:48
  I think they just fundraised a
• 26:50
  billion dollar cash
• 26:52
  their valuation probably 100x
• 26:54
  in a couple of months.
• 26:56
  You can basically, I would
• 26:58
  strongly recommend you to try it
• 26:59
  out. The onboarding is very easy,
• 27:01
  just scan the QR code, find your
• 27:03
  WhatsApp or iMessage, and
• 27:05
  then you can start basically
• 27:06
  interacting with the agent to buy
• 27:08
  stuff on behalf of you.
• 27:09
  And they just announced like there's
• 27:10
  a billion dollar GMV of travel
• 27:12
  bookings.
• 27:13
  And if you think about the
• 27:15
  travel booking case, In
• 27:17
  order for the agent to be
• 27:19
  able to complete the checkout,
• 27:21
  to fill in your traveler
• 27:22
  information, your passport
• 27:23
  information, to verify who
• 27:25
  you are so that they can get the
• 27:27
  right offers, you are
• 27:29
  essentially giving Instinct to
• 27:31
  company all of your data.
• 27:34
  It's all storing in their
• 27:36
  centralized database.
• 27:38
  And the whole flow is very simple.
• 27:40
  They will send you up, the agent
• 27:41
  will send a link, and then you click
• 27:43
  the link, and then, you fill out all
• 27:44
  the information free text,
• 27:46
  right? And even including
• 27:48
  your credit card information in free
• 27:50
  text.
• 27:51
  In the normal circumstances,
• 27:53
  none of the non-PCI compliant
• 27:55
  companies can store credit card
• 27:57
  informations, right,
• 27:58
  for good reasons.
• 28:00
  So, what...
• 28:01
  Air and also MochaChain is able
• 28:03
  to do is all the data is
• 28:05
  encrypted with the user's private
• 28:07
  key and the user can delegate
• 28:09
  to the agent by giving the agent
• 28:11
  a temporary key to decrypt
• 28:13
  that data and also field that
• 28:15
  information to complete that
• 28:16
  purchase and once that's done you
• 28:18
  can actually refoak that.
• 28:19
  Right? So you can also set different
• 28:22
  policies, like agent A,
• 28:24
  a travel agent, can use only my
• 28:26
  traveler information.
• 28:27
  Another one, I want to create a
• 28:29
  debit card or a credit card.
• 28:30
  I would give that agent my KYC
• 28:33
  information so that I can help on
• 28:34
  board on behalf of me.
• 28:35
  So it's really essentially a
• 28:37
  few things.
• 28:38
  One, building data around
• 28:40
  your human identity.
• 28:41
  Second, delegate to the
• 28:43
  agent and bind that agent.
• 28:45
  Third is to set the policy.
• 28:47
  And to scope that policy
• 28:49
  in a way that certain agents can use
• 28:51
  certain data.
• 28:52
  We would also have maybe
• 28:54
  hopefully further down the road we
• 28:56
  can jump on this show again
• 28:58
  when we make our next big
• 28:59
  announcement around payment.
• 29:02
  So we do believe what we
• 29:04
  are going to enable is
• 29:06
  the end-to-end agentic journey
• 29:08
  and building around the user
• 29:11
  from discovery to
• 29:13
  payment to earn and
• 29:15
  completing transactions end-to-end.
• 29:17
  Yeah, look, I've had the pleasure of
• 29:19
  chatting to Yatsu many, many times.
• 29:21
  And he's always been very big
• 29:23
  on sort of users at the end of
• 29:25
  the day, owning and having
• 29:26
  full control of their online
• 29:28
  identity and their data.
• 29:31
  So it's really interesting to see,
• 29:32
  you know, this this kind of stack or
• 29:34
  this tech technology finally come
• 29:36
  to fruition on chain.
• 29:39
  What do you what do you see the the
• 29:40
  uptake and, you know, the initial
• 29:42
  road forward here in the next six
• 29:43
  months to a year?
• 29:44
  Where are you pushing,
• 29:46
  how many institutions or companies
• 29:48
  are knocking on your door to use
• 29:50
  this infrastructure and what
• 29:52
  does the next year look like?
• 29:53
  Yeah, so I
• 29:56
  would say we didn't get here
• 29:58
  out of nowhere.
• 29:59
  We actually spent a lot of time
• 30:01
  running around circles.
• 30:03
  And To be
• 30:05
  to be honest, right?
• 30:06
  Like this I mean building a company
• 30:07
  building a startup is all
• 30:09
  about Being able to iterate
• 30:11
  fast enough and to listen to
• 30:13
  customers understanding what they
• 30:14
  what they actually need what I
• 30:16
  actually want Because like in the
• 30:17
  past few months Probably
• 30:20
  like probably starting from like
• 30:21
  about six to nine months ago.
• 30:23
  We start to realize like no one
• 30:24
  cares about like blockchain
• 30:26
  infrastructure or like how
• 30:28
  technically it works, which most
• 30:30
  of the founders and the companies in
• 30:32
  this space are actually doing.
• 30:33
  It's like my blockchain is amazing,
• 30:34
  it's fast, right?
• 30:35
  But who cares, right.
• 30:38
  At the end of the day,
• 30:39
  we talk to enterprises, we talk the
• 30:41
  users as like,
• 30:43
  well, I mean, for the Web3 users is
• 30:45
  probably like, where's my
• 30:46
  incentives?
• 30:47
  And for enterprises is basically
• 30:49
  like, how do I make more money?
• 30:51
  So.
• 30:52
  We got here through months
• 30:54
  of talking to C-level executives
• 30:57
  across multiple industries to
• 30:59
  get to this point of finding a great
• 31:01
  product market fit and repeatable
• 31:04
  business case that we are
• 31:06
  not in.
• 31:07
  In the normal circumstances,
• 31:08
  identity is like people.
• 31:11
  Equate KYC to identity,
• 31:13
  and KYC normally is the cost center.
• 31:15
  You become like the most hated guy
• 31:16
  in the room.
• 31:17
  Because I'm not sure if you've heard
• 31:18
  of the term called
• 31:20
  minimal viable compliance.
• 31:23
  Basically, you spend the
• 31:25
  least money, the lowest effort.
• 31:26
  And to be compliant.
• 31:28
  And we don't want to be that guy,
• 31:30
  right? Like we want to help
• 31:32
  businesses.
• 31:33
  We want to become a profit center
• 31:35
  to help them to make more money
• 31:37
  and to help users to get more
• 31:39
  benefits.
• 31:40
  So we do get
• 31:42
  a lot of traction now
• 31:44
  after months of running around
• 31:46
  circles. And with the
• 31:48
  enterprises around, like the
• 31:49
  industries that I talked about, even
• 31:51
  like one of the largest
• 31:52
  entertainment groups and
• 31:54
  tacos and all these guys are
• 31:56
  coming on board and the
• 31:58
  network would just grow and compound
• 32:00
  very quickly.
• 32:01
  Because as you can imagine, for
• 32:03
  example, I'm not saying Taylor Swift
• 32:05
  is our our
• 32:07
  our customer, but let's say Taylor
• 32:08
  Swift come on board with
• 32:11
  like hundreds of millions or even
• 32:12
  billions of fans.
• 32:13
  Everyone else would come
• 32:15
  and be like, I want...
• 32:16
  The Taylor Swift band base and
• 32:18
  onboard onto my credit
• 32:20
  card or neobanks or like traveling
• 32:23
  or whatever, right?
• 32:24
  If you can prove that you're a
• 32:26
  Taylor Swift fan, then you are able
• 32:27
  to prove how much you spend and
• 32:29
  you're able to proof any kinds of
• 32:31
  data, basically.
• 32:32
  So the network would compound very,
• 32:34
  very quickly.
• 32:35
  So short answer to your question
• 32:37
  is yes, we are
• 32:39
  still knocking on companies'
• 32:41
  doors, right?
• 32:43
  I wouldn't like inflate what
• 32:45
  we are, but I would say when we
• 32:46
  before when we knock on doors,
• 32:48
  people are like,
• 32:50
  probably shut the door at us.
• 32:52
  I don't understand what you're
• 32:54
  talking about. And like, I don't
• 32:55
  want to deal with this and whatever.
• 32:57
  But now when we knocked on doors
• 32:59
  feel like, Oh, interesting.
• 33:01
  Yes, please, like,
• 33:03
  let's let's come in about it.
• 33:05
  Come in.
• 33:06
  But at some point, when we
• 33:08
  build the network, this is an
• 33:10
  amazing analogy, because it of three
• 33:12
  stages.
• 33:12
  One stage is people shut the door at
• 33:14
  us. The second stage is,
• 33:16
  people open the door and welcome us
• 33:18
  in, uncertainty.
• 33:20
  The third stage is basically,
• 33:22
  people start knocking on your door
• 33:23
  once you've built the network.
• 33:24
  So we're at the second stage.
• 33:25
  Now, I wouldn't say we're the first
• 33:27
  stage at the moment.
• 33:29
  But because of agents and that
• 33:31
  demand coming from
• 33:33
  approving, there is no better way
• 33:35
  to prove data from agents besides
• 33:37
  what we're doing through fair public
• 33:39
  credentials. And now is the moment
• 33:40
  for it.
• 33:41
  And that's why we feel like now is
• 33:43
  the best time to launch the focus
• 33:44
  chain.
• 33:45
  Yeah, beautiful.
• 33:46
  My last question to you, I know
• 33:48
  Animoca Brands has
• 33:50
  a very diverse portfolio of
• 33:52
  companies and business interests.
• 33:55
  Obviously, one of the big ones was
• 33:56
  Web3 Gaming, this kind of
• 33:58
  sector.
• 33:59
  Does Mocha Chain plug into that at
• 34:01
  all? Can you talk a little bit about
• 34:03
  that specific use case
• 34:05
  or how that might interoperate
• 34:07
  with this?
• 34:08
  Yeah, we work with gaming companies,
• 34:10
  not necessarily just Web3 Gaming.
• 34:14
  So I'm not sure if people
• 34:16
  actually saw this, but it's actually
• 34:17
  live.
• 34:18
  We work with Delivery Hero,
• 34:20
  basically the owner of Foodpanda
• 34:21
  that got acquired by
• 34:23
  Uber. And
• 34:26
  And basically, they want
• 34:28
  to verify in-game spending of
• 34:30
  gamers. So as you can imagine,
• 34:31
  there's a lot of gamers in the
• 34:33
  world. And if you can prove how
• 34:35
  much those gamers actually spend,
• 34:38
  you're able to verify that the
• 34:39
  user is actually going to be
• 34:41
  valuable. Because of
• 34:43
  removing cookies, there is no better
• 34:44
  way to prove that anymore.
• 34:46
  You don't know when to apply a
• 34:48
  better offer for people because
• 34:49
  those traffic are anonymous.
• 34:52
  And you cannot prove whether data
• 34:54
  is true. So that's one example
• 34:56
  of how we work with gaming
• 34:57
  companies.
• 34:58
  There's also another gaming company
• 34:59
  that we're working with.
• 35:00
  It's very interesting.
• 35:02
  It's Play Now.
• 35:04
  Pay later.
• 35:05
  So for any kinds of like paywalls,
• 35:07
  right? But how do you, like if you
• 35:09
  look at Karna, for
• 35:11
  example, buy now, pay later, they're
• 35:13
  also facing kind of challenges
• 35:14
  at the moment because there's a lot
• 35:16
  of bad debt. But how to you actually
• 35:17
  verify that user data to minimize
• 35:19
  your bad debt and in a way you
• 35:21
  can maximize your opportunities of
• 35:23
  granting credits to people.
• 35:26
  So there's tons of use cases
• 35:28
  around all
• 35:30
  these industries, but with gaming, I
• 35:32
  think those are the use cases.
• 35:34
  My final question, just in terms
• 35:36
  of having these frontier
• 35:38
  LLM AI models that we have today
• 35:40
  and a lot of the big exploits
• 35:42
  that have happened in the last year,
• 35:45
  how important is it to have a
• 35:47
  technology that allows you, the
• 35:48
  user, to
• 35:50
  cryptographically secure your own
• 35:52
  data and be in control of it
• 35:53
  yourself?
• 35:54
  And are there still any risks to
• 35:55
  even a solution like
• 35:57
  MochaNetwork or MochaChain rather,
• 35:59
  that is giving
• 36:01
  the user the power back.
• 36:04
  Is there any chance that this
• 36:06
  data could be compromised in any way
• 36:07
  and how far has your team gone to
• 36:10
  ensure that that's not the case?
• 36:12
  Yeah, so everything is
• 36:15
  governed by cryptography.
• 36:16
  What that means is all the identity
• 36:18
  and the data is self-sovereign.
• 36:19
  And it's truly self-sufferent
• 36:21
  because the user owned the private
• 36:23
  key to encrypt and decrypt the data.
• 36:25
  So no one else, including us,
• 36:27
  are able to decryp the data
• 36:29
  And all the data is being encrypted
• 36:32
  at every
• 36:34
  single Fair of Upper Credential
• 36:35
  level. And what that means is, let's
• 36:37
  say, your KYC data is
• 36:39
  encrypted with a different key.
• 36:42
  Your loyalty data is encrypted with
• 36:43
  a differently key. So even if you
• 36:45
  get access to actually one
• 36:47
  key to decrypt the data, you can
• 36:49
  only get a certain scope
• 36:51
  of it. But normally, you don't leak
• 36:53
  your own private key, just like
• 36:55
  your leisure wallet and
• 36:57
  so on.
• 36:58
  So, we are pretty
• 37:00
  comfortable on that end
• 37:02
  and we're pretty confident on that
• 37:03
  end.
• 37:04
  And I think giving with
• 37:07
  agents as well, once you're
• 37:09
  able to delegate
• 37:11
  and bind in a cryptographic
• 37:13
  way and you're able to
• 37:15
  refolk that access as
• 37:18
  well and that actually
• 37:20
  gives the user absolute control of
• 37:22
  which agent you give what kind of
• 37:24
  data for them to verify on behalf
• 37:25
  of.
• 37:26
  Beautiful.
• 37:27
  Kenneth, thanks so much for taking
• 37:28
  the time to chat to us today.
• 37:30
  Big congratulations.
• 37:31
  Mocha Chain Mainnet is
• 37:33
  live as of two
• 37:35
  minutes from now, 9.30, or I
• 37:37
  believe it's live already.
• 37:38
  But we had the exclusive here on the
• 37:40
  starting block. So Kenneth, thank
• 37:41
  you so much. For staying up late in
• 37:43
  Hong Kong and chatting to us.
• 37:45
  Great, thanks for having me, thank
• 37:46
  you.
• 37:47
  And thank you to the audience for
• 37:49
  joining us today. This is The
• 37:50
  Starting Block, The Block's daily
• 37:51
  show.
• 37:52
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• 37:53
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• 37:55
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• 37:57
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• 37:59
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• 38:01
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• 38:03
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• 38:06
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• 38:07
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• 38:09
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• 38:12
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• 38:36
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• 38:37
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