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Dutton's massive WFH backflip was the 'right decision' · Inside Politics

• 0:00
  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
• 0:03
  S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. US President Donald
• 0:09
  S1: Trump has officially unleashed chaos on the world's financial markets.
• 0:13
  S1: It's a strange time to be campaigning for election, but
• 0:16
  S1: Anthony Albanese and Peter Dutton must adjust and carry on.
• 0:20
  S1: So how is this incredible international volatility impacting the election campaign?
• 0:25
  S1: Will all this disruption be favourable for the incumbent PM?
• 0:29
  S1: And do Australian voters really want a candidate promising change
• 0:32
  S1: at this moment in history? Here to discuss all this
• 0:38
  S1: and more, we have our very special guest, Sean Kelly,
• 0:40
  S1: who joins us from Melbourne. Sean Kelly, of course, writes
• 0:43
  S1: an excellent column for the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Welcome, Sean.
• 0:47
  S2: Thanks for having me on.
• 0:49
  S1: And listeners won't be able to see this, but Sean
• 0:51
  S1: is wearing an excellent sort of tartan lined jacket, which
• 0:55
  S1: I previously commented on. Anyway, let's get down to business.
• 0:59
  S1: I just want to talk briefly about the developments that
• 1:01
  S1: we've seen this week. So the week began rather badly
• 1:04
  S1: for Peter Dutton, didn't it?
• 1:05
  S2: Well, yes and no. I would say he put into
• 1:10
  S2: the newspapers the night before a massive backflip on work
• 1:14
  S2: from home, essentially saying they would not be forcing public
• 1:18
  S2: servants back into the office.
• 1:20
  S3: Look, I think we've made a mistake in relation to
• 1:23
  S3: this policy, Sarah, and I think it's important that we
• 1:25
  S3: say that and recognise it. And our intention always was
• 1:29
  S3: to make sure that we're taxpayers are working hard and
• 1:31
  S3: their money is being spent to pay wages, that it's
• 1:33
  S3: being spent efficiently. And that, of.
• 1:35
  S2: Course, now that was a back down from a policy
• 1:38
  S2: that would have affected a fair few public servants. But
• 1:40
  S2: the problem for him and the Liberal Party was that
• 1:43
  S2: there was a sense out in voter land that people
• 1:47
  S2: thought this applied to everybody, or at the least thought
• 1:50
  S2: this was the beginning of a push by the coalition
• 1:52
  S2: to get everybody back in the office. And I think
• 1:55
  S2: the coalition really did miss a trick here. They underestimated
• 1:59
  S2: the heat around this issue. I've found whenever I've written
• 2:02
  S2: about this issue, straying a little away from my usual
• 2:04
  S2: politics beat, there's a really large reaction to it. And
• 2:08
  S2: I feel all of the businesses that have been pushing
• 2:10
  S2: people to get back to the office and the politicians
• 2:12
  S2: who have been doing likewise, aren't properly aware of just
• 2:16
  S2: how passionately people feel about this. So, look, it was
• 2:21
  S2: bad in the sense that it chews up another day.
• 2:23
  S2: It shines a spotlight on how messy his campaign has
• 2:27
  S2: been on the on the messiness around the development of policy.
• 2:30
  S2: But the reason I hesitate to say it was a
• 2:33
  S2: bad start to the week is it has, or it
• 2:36
  S2: potentially allows him a reset. When you have a problem
• 2:40
  S2: in a campaign, when you have something that is damaging you,
• 2:43
  S2: the worst thing a campaign can do is think, well,
• 2:45
  S2: we can't change this. It's too late. You can always
• 2:49
  S2: change things from the eye of the storm. And so
• 2:52
  S2: they made the right decision, I think, to get out
• 2:54
  S2: there and flip that. And that then should allow them
• 2:59
  S2: to push the debate back onto topics that are a
• 3:02
  S2: bit more helpful to them. It's important to remember that
• 3:04
  S2: we're still really early in the campaign here. There are
• 3:07
  S2: a number of weeks to go. A lot of campaigns
• 3:10
  S2: start badly.
• 3:11
  S1: Isn't it hard, though, for them now to talk much
• 3:14
  S1: about their policy to cut back on the civil service,
• 3:17
  S1: which they've already sort of walked back and they've said
• 3:20
  S1: that they're not going to do any forced redundancies. I
• 3:23
  S1: think they want to get rid of 41,000 public servants,
• 3:26
  S1: which they say is the number that the Albanese government
• 3:28
  S1: has put on since it's been in power. But they're
• 3:31
  S1: now saying that they're going to do that via natural attrition.
• 3:34
  S1: I mean, it's a major policy or one of the
• 3:37
  S1: very few major policies that they have in quite a
• 3:41
  S1: threadbare programme of policies. And that's tainted now too, isn't it?
• 3:46
  S2: Oh, look. Absolutely. And they have been confused and confusing
• 3:51
  S2: on this policy for a number of months, giving different
• 3:53
  S2: answers about how many public servants refusing to say exactly
• 3:56
  S2: how those public servants would go. Whether it would be
• 3:59
  S2: natural attrition, whether it would be forced redundancies. Peter Dutton
• 4:02
  S2: was still refusing to answer this definitively in the last
• 4:05
  S2: couple of months. So this absolutely pours a lot of
• 4:08
  S2: cold water over that policy. Now, as you say this.
• 4:13
  S2: The problem really is that this is one of very
• 4:17
  S2: few policies that they have out there. I don't think
• 4:20
  S2: that cutting the public service back is a tremendously important
• 4:22
  S2: policy in terms of winning voters over. It was probably
• 4:26
  S2: a little bit of a signalling policy in terms of
• 4:30
  S2: suggesting that the coalition will always be responsible with money
• 4:33
  S2: and that traditional conservative messaging. But I don't think you
• 4:36
  S2: are ever going to get a huge number of votes
• 4:38
  S2: by cutting back on public servants. The difficulty, though, and
• 4:41
  S2: you see this in the backflip on work from home,
• 4:43
  S2: and you see this on the change in the public
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  S2: service policy, is that there just aren't enough policies out
• 4:50
  S2: there to hold Peter Dutton up as a solid candidate. Candidates.
• 4:54
  S2: There just aren't enough policies out there telling voters exactly
• 4:58
  S2: who he is. And I think this is a really
• 5:00
  S2: important point to remember, and I've seen a few people
• 5:04
  S2: write about it in the last couple of days, that
• 5:06
  S2: politicians fundamentally communicate who they are, not just by whether
• 5:11
  S2: they smile at the cameras or by whether they kick
• 5:13
  S2: a football, but by the policies they put out there.
• 5:17
  S2: And I think politicians who forget that and think that
• 5:20
  S2: an election campaign or the three years between election campaigns
• 5:24
  S2: can be won simply through rhetoric and making huge mistakes.
• 5:29
  S1: Mhm. Yeah. Okay. So we're actually deeper than, than we
• 5:32
  S1: give ourselves credit for perhaps that people, even people who
• 5:35
  S1: are not particularly engaged with politics or only wake up
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  S1: to it when they're forced to sort of vote every
• 5:40
  S1: three years, they actually look at the policies because they
• 5:43
  S1: tell us something about the person that we're electing, if
• 5:46
  S1: nothing else.
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  S2: I think so. I think I think we often forget
• 5:49
  S2: about politics is that it's not unlike the way we
• 5:52
  S2: evaluate people in day to day life. You can make
• 5:55
  S2: a first impression when you meet somebody and their manner
• 5:57
  S2: will tell you something, but ultimately, how they behave over
• 6:00
  S2: the next weeks and months is going to tell you
• 6:01
  S2: whether you really can trust them and the types of
• 6:05
  S2: things they're likely to do in particular situations. And I
• 6:08
  S2: think we make very similar judgments about politicians over time.
• 6:11
  S2: And Peter Dutton, to his immense detriment, I think has
• 6:15
  S2: had three years and hasn't really taken that chance. You know,
• 6:19
  S2: a lot of people are talking about the the last
• 6:21
  S2: week and a half and how bad that's been for
• 6:23
  S2: Peter Dutton, and it has been a bad start to
• 6:25
  S2: the campaign, but it's actually hard to point to many
• 6:28
  S2: massive mistakes he's made. It was clearly a mistake saying
• 6:31
  S2: that he'd prefer Sydney over Canberra. I'd love to live
• 6:34
  S2: at Kirribilli. That was a distraction, but he hasn't actually
• 6:37
  S2: made a huge number of mistakes in the last week
• 6:38
  S2: and a half. What he has failed to do is
• 6:41
  S2: take opportunities. He didn't use his budget reply strongly enough.
• 6:46
  S2: He hasn't announced dramatic policies that might shift the debate.
• 6:49
  S2: His approach to Donald Trump wasn't sufficiently different from Anthony
• 6:54
  S2: Albanese to make a real splash, to suggest to voters
• 6:57
  S2: the ways that he might be a prime minister that
• 7:00
  S2: would be different and superior to Anthony Albanese. And I
• 7:04
  S2: think that if you are behind in a campaign and
• 7:08
  S2: of course, the polls could be wrong, but right now
• 7:09
  S2: they suggest that Peter Dutton is behind. You have to
• 7:12
  S2: take your chances. And I think that's his major flaw
• 7:15
  S2: in this campaign so far.
• 7:17
  S1: What do you think about his communication ability? Because we
• 7:19
  S1: haven't seen a lot of it, as you say, in
• 7:22
  S1: the last three years, we haven't seen a lot of
• 7:24
  S1: him communicating to voters off the cuff or interacting with
• 7:28
  S1: journalists in any kind of natural environment. We haven't seen
• 7:32
  S1: a lot of him on the hustings, and we haven't
• 7:34
  S1: really seen him in a toe to toe debate situation,
• 7:36
  S1: like we're going to be seeing him this week. I mean,
• 7:39
  S1: something like the the work from home policy, if that
• 7:42
  S1: had been better communicated or better articulated by Dutton himself,
• 7:48
  S1: because he really left the heavy lifting to Jane Hume
• 7:51
  S1: on that. I mean, do you think he's very good
• 7:54
  S1: at communicating from what we've seen so far?
• 7:56
  S2: Look, look, it's a great question. And in a way,
• 7:58
  S2: it comes back to all of the problems with the
• 8:01
  S2: shaping of Peter Dutton's campaign over the last few years,
• 8:05
  S2: which is essentially that he's left everything very late. So
• 8:08
  S2: he's left the announcement of policies very late. That means
• 8:12
  S2: he's on the back foot now. The work from home policy. Yes,
• 8:15
  S2: it's a mistake. Yes, he's reversed it. But imagine if
• 8:17
  S2: he'd announced it three months ago and had reversed it
• 8:19
  S2: two months ago. We wouldn't now be talking about it
• 8:22
  S2: in the midst of an election campaign, and similarly with communication.
• 8:25
  S2: He's deliberately, systematically avoided facing the press gallery in Canberra,
• 8:30
  S2: the journalists who are going to be most knowledgeable about
• 8:33
  S2: the details of any policies, he announced. He has avoided
• 8:37
  S2: unfriendly media interviews to a very large extent. And those
• 8:41
  S2: things mean that he's not match fit. He's not prepared
• 8:44
  S2: to face anybody but the most amicable welcoming of interviewers,
• 8:50
  S2: and I think you can really see that. I don't
• 8:53
  S2: think he's a terrible communicator, by the way. I think
• 8:56
  S2: he does a pretty good job of remaining calm. I
• 8:59
  S2: think he does a pretty good job of barreling through
• 9:04
  S2: an interview when he needs to, but he is not
• 9:07
  S2: good at answering the detail of policies. And I think
• 9:10
  S2: in a campaign that can really kill you.
• 9:12
  S1: Yeah. And just sort of articulating some sort of vision
• 9:16
  S1: or even a sense of personality. In your column this week,
• 9:20
  S1: you made an intriguing argument about Australia's appetite for change.
• 9:24
  S1: You were basically saying that we often say that we
• 9:26
  S1: want change, or we want a certain area or difficulty
• 9:30
  S1: or challenge fixed, but when we get presented with an
• 9:33
  S1: actual policy, we backtrack and say no. Can you elaborate
• 9:37
  S1: on what you mean by that?
• 9:38
  S2: Yeah, I think you've seen this in a in a
• 9:40
  S2: number of areas over the years. I think you could
• 9:42
  S2: see it in the debate around the indigenous voice to Parliament.
• 9:46
  S2: Polls would say that Australians wanted something to be done
• 9:48
  S2: about indigenous affairs, that they wanted the standard of living,
• 9:51
  S2: of Indigenous Australians improved, even that they thought Indigenous Australians
• 9:55
  S2: should have more of a say more broadly. But when
• 9:57
  S2: a proposal came up to actually change those things, Australians
• 10:02
  S2: thought about it and thought, oh no, not, not that change.
• 10:05
  S2: We want change. Just not that one. I think the
• 10:07
  S2: same thing happened on climate change. Australians were in favour,
• 10:11
  S2: drastic favour of wanting something to happen on climate change.
• 10:15
  S2: But a carbon price. No no no no no thank you.
• 10:18
  S2: And I think this it's not just Australia. This happens
• 10:22
  S2: around the world. People are broadly in favour of change.
• 10:24
  S2: They're broadly in favour of fixing problems. But when you
• 10:26
  S2: actually ask them, well what about this thing which is
• 10:30
  S2: going to change society in some way or is going
• 10:32
  S2: to change your life in some way, they suddenly get very,
• 10:36
  S2: very worried about the changes, which is why some of
• 10:40
  S2: the most successful changes over the years are governments have
• 10:43
  S2: effectively sprung on people mid-term or early in their term,
• 10:47
  S2: which means that they've been in place long enough by
• 10:51
  S2: the next election for voters to have stopped worrying about them.
• 10:54
  S2: You know, you could say Anthony Albanese changes to the
• 10:56
  S2: stage three tax cuts. You know, there was an enormous
• 10:58
  S2: uproar about them for a couple of weeks and broken promises.
• 11:01
  S2: But nobody's talking about them anymore.
• 11:03
  S1: No. No one probably notices them very much at all.
• 11:06
  S1: You also talk in your column. It was a great column.
• 11:08
  S1: I urge people to go and read it if they
• 11:10
  S1: haven't already. But you talk about the effect of Trump
• 11:13
  S1: 2.0 on our domestic election campaign, and it seems like
• 11:17
  S1: that effect is absolutely inescapable, particularly this week. There's been
• 11:20
  S1: so much volatility in the financial markets, and it really
• 11:24
  S1: feels like the global order is being rearranged in a
• 11:27
  S1: way that we haven't seen since the Second World War.
• 11:31
  S1: You talk about how that volatility might affect Australians appetite
• 11:34
  S1: for change, and how it might favour incumbents like Anthony Albanese.
• 11:39
  S1: Can you elaborate on that?
• 11:41
  S2: Yeah. Well, I think this is the most dramatic example
• 11:44
  S2: of the phenomenon I was just talking about people around
• 11:47
  S2: the world, and certainly people in Australia, especially young people,
• 11:50
  S2: have been saying for quite some time that they want
• 11:52
  S2: really dramatic change, they want the system shifted, and Donald
• 11:56
  S2: Trump is providing a version of that, and suddenly people
• 11:59
  S2: are saying, oh, well, yes, we want dramatic change. We
• 12:02
  S2: want the system torn down, but we don't want it
• 12:04
  S2: torn down exactly like this by this exact person in
• 12:07
  S2: this exact way. And I think what's really interesting about
• 12:11
  S2: that in the context of this election, is whether this
• 12:15
  S2: drives people away from that idea of change more broadly,
• 12:19
  S2: or whether they do just limit their reservations and their
• 12:22
  S2: reluctance to Donald Trump. So in the context of our election,
• 12:26
  S2: whether that pushes people to Anthony Albanese, just as in
• 12:31
  S2: a direct head to head comparison with Peter Dutton, or whether, yeah, sure,
• 12:36
  S2: they might in this particular environment choose the incumbent over
• 12:40
  S2: the opposition, but whether they actually still like the idea
• 12:43
  S2: of change more broadly and still flock to the third
• 12:46
  S2: parties the Greens, the community, independents, various other independents. And
• 12:52
  S2: I think that's a really interesting question. Obviously, we're not
• 12:55
  S2: going to get a sense of that until election night.
• 12:57
  S2: Possibly even the days after, depending on how close the
• 13:00
  S2: election is. But that, for me, is one of the
• 13:02
  S2: most fascinating things about this election. Whether people turn away
• 13:06
  S2: from the idea of change more broadly, or whether they
• 13:09
  S2: just turn away from the idea of change as wrought
• 13:13
  S2: by Donald Trump.
• 13:14
  S1: What do you think of the Peter Dutton argument that
• 13:16
  S1: he is the better leader to deal with Donald Trump
• 13:19
  S1: in the white House, that Albanese has shown himself to
• 13:22
  S1: be weak and ineffectual and, you know, famously can't even
• 13:25
  S1: get sort of Trump on the phone to argue Australia's
• 13:28
  S1: case about tariffs. Do you think that's a persuasive argument
• 13:32
  S1: for voters?
• 13:35
  S2: I thought the not being able to get a phone
• 13:37
  S2: call argument sounded persuasive. I don't think it was real
• 13:42
  S2: in the sense that I don't think Donald Trump was
• 13:44
  S2: really giving anybody the time of day at that point.
• 13:48
  S2: But I thought it sounded like a pretty strong line.
• 13:51
  S2: It is a common sense appeal. But I thought Peter
• 13:55
  S2: Dutton ended up sounding a little bit silly after the
• 13:57
  S2: tariffs were actually announced, when he briefly suggested he could
• 14:00
  S2: have got a different deal that was clearly patently false
• 14:04
  S2: to anybody following it. And I think in a way
• 14:08
  S2: the government really benefited from being able to say, look,
• 14:10
  S2: it's 10%. It's the it's the lowest of all of
• 14:13
  S2: these crazy tariffs you're seeing around the globe. I think
• 14:16
  S2: this is another really interesting aspect of this campaign, the
• 14:19
  S2: way things have shifted in various ways. And some of
• 14:22
  S2: this is entirely luck. Circumstances which you might have thought
• 14:26
  S2: would play against Anthony Albanese, like the imposition of tariffs,
• 14:30
  S2: have ended up playing quite well for him. And some
• 14:33
  S2: sometimes that's just momentum, sometimes that's just the way events
• 14:38
  S2: play out. And I think this is a more broadly
• 14:41
  S2: an interesting question about this election, whether it is being
• 14:45
  S2: driven much at all by what Anthony Albanese says or
• 14:48
  S2: what Peter Dutton says, or whether we're really we're looking
• 14:51
  S2: at a political situation that's driven by external factors. First,
• 14:55
  S2: you had inflation driving people away from Anthony Albanese, making
• 14:59
  S2: it look like Peter Dutton was a very effective campaigner.
• 15:02
  S2: And as inflation has come off the boil a bit
• 15:05
  S2: and you've got an interest rate cut, you saw people
• 15:07
  S2: coming back to the government. Now Donald Trump is driving
• 15:11
  S2: voters back to incumbents across the world. You know, I
• 15:14
  S2: think we need to be wary of saying, well, Anthony
• 15:16
  S2: Albanese has played this brilliantly. It's happening everywhere. Now. All
• 15:20
  S2: that said, a week and a half in Anthony Albanese
• 15:23
  S2: is having a better campaign than Peter Dutton. But as
• 15:26
  S2: I said, it's a week and a half in.
• 15:27
  S1: You've worked for Kevin Rudd and you've worked for Julia Gillard,
• 15:31
  S1: both of whom were prime ministers, you will recall. Can
• 15:34
  S1: you tell us a bit about what it's like to
• 15:37
  S1: be inside a campaign, and when that switch is flipped from,
• 15:42
  S1: you know, government mode to campaign mode. What changes what
• 15:45
  S1: what does a day look like? What, you know, how
• 15:47
  S1: many meetings are held. And you know, how much does
• 15:49
  S1: sort of the campaign HQ, the party machine take over?
• 15:53
  S2: There are lots of different places you can work in
• 15:56
  S2: a campaign. I did one campaign in campaign headquarters. I
• 16:00
  S2: remember the air conditioning was broken such that it was freezing.
• 16:02
  S2: It was. It was spring, verging on summer, and I
• 16:05
  S2: was wearing a gigantic jacket every day. Which just goes
• 16:09
  S2: to show, campaigns often get the tiniest things completely wrong
• 16:14
  S2: in that environment. There is an enormous amount of pressure
• 16:16
  S2: on you not to stuff up. I think that's the
• 16:19
  S2: dominant thing. It's almost less about making gains for for
• 16:23
  S2: most people working on a campaign because they're not making
• 16:26
  S2: the big decisions. But what they are doing is doing
• 16:29
  S2: is preparing press releases or answering media calls or checking
• 16:32
  S2: policy details. And if you make an error in any
• 16:35
  S2: one of those, you could end up being the person
• 16:37
  S2: who derails the party's campaign costs your party government. So
• 16:42
  S2: that sense of constant pressure is immense. And then you
• 16:47
  S2: have the travelling team who are out there with the
• 16:50
  S2: Prime Minister or the opposition leader. And that's a very,
• 16:53
  S2: very different situation, because again, yes, you have immense pressure
• 16:57
  S2: on you not to make mistakes, but mistakes are going
• 17:00
  S2: to be made across a 5 or 6 week campaign.
• 17:03
  S2: In a way, the pressure is on that other end,
• 17:06
  S2: that entrepreneurial element, if you like the, um, you need
• 17:10
  S2: to know when you have to make shifts and when
• 17:12
  S2: you can try to grab advantages. For example, Peter Dutton
• 17:18
  S2: backflipping on work from home. You know, that is a
• 17:20
  S2: a massive call that you can you can take input
• 17:23
  S2: from everywhere. But ultimately that is a decision that is
• 17:25
  S2: going to be made by the leader and that means
• 17:28
  S2: the leader in consultation, probably with party headquarters, but also
• 17:31
  S2: with the small travelling team of people that he trusts.
• 17:35
  S1: Yeah.
• 17:35
  S2: And I think that travelling team, um, you know, there's
• 17:39
  S2: camaraderie there, but it's very lonely. For that reason, there is,
• 17:44
  S2: because it is really a very small group. You're talking
• 17:46
  S2: about who can completely shift the dynamics of the campaign.
• 17:51
  S2: And if you are behind. And I remember this in
• 17:54
  S2: 2010 with Julia Gillard, we were behind the the Labor
• 18:00
  S2: Secretariat had either stopped polling or stopped advertising, I can't
• 18:03
  S2: remember which, but it was an indication of how absolutely
• 18:06
  S2: stuffed the campaign was at one point. You might remember
• 18:09
  S2: this is when Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard still seemed
• 18:12
  S2: to be warring. There was an awful photo opportunity between
• 18:14
  S2: them both to try to declare a truce. I think
• 18:18
  S2: maybe it did more damage than help. Uh, there were
• 18:21
  S2: awful leaks coming out, and, you know, there was a
• 18:24
  S2: small group of us who had to try to figure
• 18:27
  S2: out what needed to change, and dramatic changes were needed.
• 18:32
  S2: And that's and nobody else can really tell you what
• 18:36
  S2: to do in that situation. They can provide very, very
• 18:38
  S2: valuable advice, particularly, you know, those people who are very
• 18:42
  S2: good at polling can provide very useful advice during a campaign.
• 18:46
  S2: But ultimately it's a small group of people. And of course,
• 18:48
  S2: ultimately it comes down to the leader themselves. And I
• 18:51
  S2: think that's that's something people forget a little bit. When
• 18:55
  S2: we watch a campaign play out. We think, well, the
• 18:57
  S2: leader is under pressure because they have to answer questions
• 18:59
  S2: at a press conference. If they have to not make
• 19:01
  S2: mistakes and they have to say the right thing and
• 19:04
  S2: prosecute the message effectively. But the real pressure is in
• 19:08
  S2: making those decisions every day, because ultimately there's only one
• 19:12
  S2: head on the chopping block.
• 19:13
  S1: What's the atmosphere like in a campaign that's not going well? Um,
• 19:17
  S1: you know, within that small cabal of people who are
• 19:20
  S1: travelling with with the leader and, you know, have you
• 19:23
  S1: I mean, how much sort of psychological bolstering is required
• 19:27
  S1: of the leader, him or herself, how much comfort is
• 19:31
  S1: required on a personal level for that person?
• 19:33
  S4: It's a really good question.
• 19:35
  S2: I don't think there is a one size fits all answer,
• 19:39
  S2: because every leader is so different from every other leader.
• 19:43
  S2: But you point to a really important issue, which is
• 19:45
  S2: that it does come down to psychology to a very
• 19:48
  S2: large extent. And I think you can see that in
• 19:50
  S2: this campaign. I think in the last week and a half,
• 19:54
  S2: Anthony Albanese has looked much sharper and much more confident
• 19:59
  S2: than he has for a long time. And I don't
• 20:02
  S2: think that's because he's suddenly figured out how to campaign better.
• 20:05
  S2: I think a huge amount of that is momentum, is
• 20:08
  S2: the sense of confidence he would be feeling from the
• 20:11
  S2: polls suddenly going his way. And I just don't think
• 20:14
  S2: you can overstate how important those mood shifts are.
• 20:18
  S1: Yeah. No, I totally agree. And it does come down
• 20:20
  S1: to psychology. It's absolutely fascinating. We're recording this before the debate,
• 20:25
  S1: the first debate or the People's Forum, I should say,
• 20:28
  S1: which is on Tuesday night. So it's going to be
• 20:30
  S1: fascinating to see how these two men face up against
• 20:33
  S1: each other, because we've never really seen that before. So
• 20:36
  S1: I'm sure we'll both be watching. Sean, it's been so
• 20:39
  S1: fascinating to have you on, and I will hope that
• 20:41
  S1: you will come back again before the end of the campaign.
• 20:43
  S2: Thanks so much. It's been great to chat.
• 20:45
  S1: And bring your tartan lined bomber jacket with you. Thanks
• 20:49
  S1: very much.
• 20:50
  S2: Thanks, Jackie.
• 20:53
  S1: Today's episode of Inside Politics was produced by Julia Katzel
• 20:57
  S1: with technical assistance from Josh towers. Our executive producer is
• 21:01
  S1: Tammy Mills. Inside politics is a production of The Age
• 21:05
  S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald. To support our journalism, subscribe
• 21:08
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  S1: summary of the most important news of the week, including
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  S1: analysis and insights, in your inbox. Links are in the
• 21:25
  S1: show notes. I'm Jacqueline Maley, this is inside politics. Thank
• 21:29
  S1: you for listening.