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Christians in Cornwall are saying No to ‘On the Way’ · UK Column Radio

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the UK column listeners. I am delighted to
0:03
Speaker 1: be here in the depths of Cornwall and I've been
0:07
Speaker 1: invited to sit with a gentleman called Ross. We're in
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Speaker 1: an area called Carnbray, and the subject really is what's
0:19
Speaker 1: happening in the Church of England with the Church of
0:21
Speaker 1: England in Cornwall. So Ross, thank you very much for
0:25
Speaker 1: inviting me down. And where do we begin with this
0:30
Speaker 1: little story? I think the first place is for you
0:33
Speaker 1: to tell us a little bit about about the church,
0:37
Speaker 1: because a lot of people aren't engage with the church.
0:41
Speaker 1: They're not engaged with the Church of England. So how
0:45
Speaker 1: long have you been associated with the Church of England
0:48
Speaker 1: and why do you think is it's been an important
0:52
Speaker 1: part of your life.
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Speaker 2: I've been engaged with the Church of England for actually
1:00
Speaker 2: about forty years, if I come to think about it.
1:06
Speaker 2: I grew up attending church, but mostly nonconformist churches, and
1:16
Speaker 2: then when I was in my very early thirties, I
1:22
Speaker 2: started going to the Church of England church where I lived.
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Speaker 2: Sometimes there have been periods of my life which have
1:31
Speaker 2: been extremely difficult, and the church has been a place
1:35
Speaker 2: of great solace for me. It's been a great help
1:40
Speaker 2: to me and I met one particularly charismatic and understanding
1:49
Speaker 2: clergyman who did a lot for me. And going to
1:55
Speaker 2: church regularly and church life has become very very important
2:00
Speaker 2: for me.
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Speaker 1: Corll has a very rich history with regards to the
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Speaker 1: Christian Church. And I don't know the exact figure myself,
2:12
Speaker 1: but how many churches are there in Cornwall do you think?
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Speaker 2: Well, I would think that there are just over two
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Speaker 2: hundred actual churches, but I think we shouldn't lose sight
2:27
Speaker 2: of the fact that there are three hundred plus Celtic
2:31
Speaker 2: Christian sites in Cornwall. And I would just like to
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Speaker 2: quote from Canon pat Robson, who developed the Celtic Christian pilgrimage,
2:48
Speaker 2: which is being used by lots of people who either
2:51
Speaker 2: live or who come on holiday to Cornwall. These are churches,
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Speaker 2: she says, founded by ancient saints searching out quiet places
3:01
Speaker 2: to be alone with God. Over hundreds and hundreds of years,
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Speaker 2: they have become steeped in love and prayer and long
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Speaker 2: to offer sanctuary to everyone who needs it. So these
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Speaker 2: are these are the Celtic Christian sites in Cornwall, and
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Speaker 2: that gives us a feel for people using the churches
3:29
Speaker 2: who are not necessarily part of the regular congregation. And
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Speaker 2: that's something I think that we should be bearing in mind.
3:36
Speaker 2: Who goes into churches when there's no one else there.
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Speaker 2: They don't just sit there empty all day every day.
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Speaker 2: People quietly go into them. They write prayer requests, they
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Speaker 2: sit quietly. They are places of sanctuary.
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Speaker 1: And I understand that some people will deliberately choose to
3:59
Speaker 1: go into a church when nobody else is there. They're
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Speaker 1: not regular church goers, but they do enjoy being able
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Speaker 1: to go into a church when it's a quiet place
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Speaker 1: that they can access on their own.
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Speaker 2: Is that correct, That's absolutely correct, for various reasons. I
4:18
Speaker 2: have cause to go into church at times which are
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Speaker 2: not when services are being held, and invariably either someone
4:27
Speaker 2: is already there, or someone may come in while I
4:31
Speaker 2: am there and they just want to sit quietly. They
4:35
Speaker 2: might they might want to walk around and look at
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Speaker 2: the stone glass, but they might just want to sit
4:41
Speaker 2: there quietly and have their own thoughts. And that is
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Speaker 2: the aspect of offering sanctuary to everyone who needs it.
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Speaker 1: Now, you contacted me because you were starting to see
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Speaker 1: changes in the Church of England and you were starting
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Speaker 1: to perhaps be a big concerned about the direction in
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Speaker 1: which the church was going. So can you tell us
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Speaker 1: a little bit about what you were seeing. What is
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Speaker 1: the Church of England trying to do at the moment
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Speaker 1: and why would that start to raise some concerns with you.
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Speaker 2: Well, I think the project that's named On the Way,
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Speaker 2: which began, interestingly enough in Cornwall during lockdown. There are
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Speaker 2: very similar projects in other parts of the country which
5:37
Speaker 2: we can mention later on, but in Cornwall it began
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Speaker 2: during lockdown, which was a very difficult time when the
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Speaker 2: Archbishop of Canterbury had closed all the churches, so that
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Speaker 2: even clergy themselves, clergymen, clergy women were not permitted inside
5:59
Speaker 2: their churches, even on their own, they were not permitted
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Speaker 2: to go into their church buildings at all. No services
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Speaker 2: were happening, obviously, no congregations got together to talk about things,
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Speaker 2: and yet the diocese began this new project called On
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Speaker 2: the Way, which is a project which amalgamates churches, creates
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Speaker 2: large collections of parishes and tries to turn them into
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Speaker 2: one under only one ordained member of the clergy, with
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Speaker 2: a number of other people who are not ordained, and
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Speaker 2: this takes away centuries of the organization of the Church
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Speaker 2: of England, whereby there are ordained clergy in individual parish.
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Speaker 2: So individual parishes lose their own clergy person, and Cornwell
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Speaker 2: is very attached to its parishes. As you drive around
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Speaker 2: in the car, you can see notices by the side
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Speaker 2: of the room that says you are entering such and
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Speaker 2: such parish. The whole idea of a parish with a
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Speaker 2: clergy person to look after what's called the cure of souls,
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Speaker 2: that whole concept is being abolished.
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Speaker 1: Okay, So we'll say for the ordinary listener, and particularly
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Speaker 1: somebody who hasn't been involved with the church before. The
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Speaker 1: original system was each church. You correct me if I
7:45
Speaker 1: haven't got this right, but each church would have its
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Speaker 1: own vicar, and that vicar, as well as doing it
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Speaker 1: obviously running church services, was particularly there to look after
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Speaker 1: the pastoral care of the parish itself. So this was
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Speaker 1: a person who was working in the church in a
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Speaker 1: spiritual way, but was also working in the parish council, sorry,
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Speaker 1: in the parish itself, in order to look after people
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Speaker 1: in the parish. So we have vicar, one church, one vicar,
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Speaker 1: and now we have a project which is effectively saying
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Speaker 1: if I've got this right, that we're going to have
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Speaker 1: one vicar for multiple churches, Is that right?
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Speaker 2: Yes, that is correct. Obviously, over quite a long period
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Speaker 2: of time churches have been put together in a much
8:41
Speaker 2: smaller way. There are quite a lot of areas of
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Speaker 2: Cornwall where there isn't just one clergy person one vicar
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Speaker 2: with one church. There may have been vicars looking after
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Speaker 2: perhaps four churches, which is quite a lot of work
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Speaker 2: that now is being increased to. In one instance in
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Speaker 2: Cornwall about twenty two churches with i believe two ordained
9:15
Speaker 2: members of the clergy. But it's it is unmanageable from
9:21
Speaker 2: unrecognizable from the system that used to be. When a
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Speaker 2: member of the clergy comes to a parish as a
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Speaker 2: new vicar or a new rector in some instances, one
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Speaker 2: of the things that they promised to do is to
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Speaker 2: have what's called the cure of souls. And this is
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Speaker 2: a very long standing, quite old fashioned sort of expression,
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Speaker 2: which means that that person is responsible for the soul
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Speaker 2: of every person who lives in that parish. So it
9:59
Speaker 2: doesn't whether you're a church goer or whether you're not
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Speaker 2: a church goer. The vicar actually is there for you
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Speaker 2: if you don't go to church on Sundays, you can
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Speaker 2: still have your child baptized in church, and a lot
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Speaker 2: of people still do. You can still be married in church.
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Speaker 2: That those two instances are going to become much more
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Speaker 2: difficult if you have one vicar looking after a vast
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Speaker 2: number of churches, which is what On the Way proposes,
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Speaker 2: and in fact is what is actually happening in Cornwall now,
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Speaker 2: So it is impossible for the clergy to look after
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Speaker 2: the souls of eight parishes for instance.
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Speaker 1: Ross you're very concerned about the loss of trained clergy
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Speaker 1: under the diocese planned On the Way, But of course
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Speaker 1: there many people who are not are not the fully
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Speaker 1: trained clergy men and women who do an awful awful
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Speaker 1: amount of very good work for the church. So can
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Speaker 1: you tell us about some of these other people that
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Speaker 1: work in the church environment, Wells.
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Speaker 2: The most obvious group who are not actually ordained are
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Speaker 2: the lay ministers known as readers. They have been working
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Speaker 2: in the Church of England for a very long time.
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Speaker 2: They do a wonderful job in supporting clergy in parishes.
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Speaker 2: But the prospective lay ministers in the On the Way plan,
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Speaker 2: that's a different setup altogether. The proposal is that they
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Speaker 2: have quite a bit of responsibility for individual churches, to
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Speaker 2: a much greater degree than there's been previously. One of
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Speaker 2: the big questions is how much training are they actually
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Speaker 2: going to receive. If there is one clergy clergy person
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Speaker 2: responsible for anything from let's say eight churches up to
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Speaker 2: twenty two down in West Cornwall, there's going to be
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Speaker 2: a much greater reliance on lay ministry. I think it
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Speaker 2: is is one of the worrying aspects of on the
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Speaker 2: way is understanding how much responsibility these people will actually
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Speaker 2: be given. Certainly they're going to be taking services, but
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Speaker 2: they will not be able to administer Holy Communion, one
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Speaker 2: of the sacraments of the Church of England.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so there's the lay ministers, the readers, but there's
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Speaker 1: also I think what would you call them lay people
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Speaker 1: if in general who come and do good, good work
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Speaker 1: with the church, and then of course they're retired clergy,
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Speaker 1: how do they how do those two groups fit in.
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Speaker 2: As far as the retired clergy are concerned that the
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Speaker 2: Diocese of Truro wouldn't be able to have churches holding
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Speaker 2: anything like the number of services that they do at
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Speaker 2: the moment. If retired clergy were not there. They they
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Speaker 2: are an absolute kingpin of the Diocese of Truro. All
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Speaker 2: over the county there are retired clergy taking services every Sunday.
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Speaker 2: They are unpaid. They can submit expenses, most of them
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Speaker 2: choose not to do so, so that that's another area
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Speaker 2: where the church in Cornwall is being supported by people
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Speaker 2: who are not paid. There are other what can we
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Speaker 2: call them? Really? There are other lay people taking informal
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Speaker 2: services in churches across Cornwall and they of course are
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Speaker 2: incredibly valuable and again the church could not be surviving
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Speaker 2: without all these people to help. But they don't have
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Speaker 2: overall responsibility for a church. And it appears what appears
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Speaker 2: to be the case is that delay people in the
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Speaker 2: on the Way projects are going to be having quite
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Speaker 2: a bit of quite a bit of responsibility, okay.
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Speaker 1: And it is another reasonable question to go with that,
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Speaker 1: who is going to train these these new people are
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Speaker 1: that are being proposed under the on the Way project?
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Speaker 1: Are those are those people going to be trained central
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Speaker 1: centrally or are they going to be people that are
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Speaker 1: trained within their own parish system.
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Speaker 2: I don't think I can I don't think I can
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Speaker 2: actually answer that question. We believe that they will be
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Speaker 2: trained within the Diocese of Truro. I don't know anymore
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Speaker 2: about that particular aspect of the plan.
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Speaker 1: Just because it seems in my head to follow on
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Speaker 1: with this. This is quite a key thing if you
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Speaker 1: say you're going to essentially be replacing trained vickers with
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Speaker 1: lay people. Who those lay people are, how they're selected
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Speaker 1: and how they're trained is a pretty critical issue.
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Speaker 2: I would have thought it, certainly, It certainly is a
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Speaker 2: critical issue. But for let's say an ordinary person like me,
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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know the answers to those questions,
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Speaker 2: but you are quite correct that it is a very
15:58
Speaker 2: important aspect of the whole thing.
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Speaker 1: The church is not just looking to change those people
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Speaker 1: and how they relate in what work they do and
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Speaker 1: how many churches they look after. There's also another process
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Speaker 1: which is going on which I think, I please explain
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Speaker 1: because I don't understand it fully, but I believe it's
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Speaker 1: to do with a sort of combining of church councils.
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Speaker 2: Is that correct? That's absolutely correct. One of the aspects
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Speaker 2: of on the Way which is particularly worrying is the
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Speaker 2: intention for churches once they are in and on the
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Speaker 2: Way group for them to combine their parochial church councils,
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Speaker 2: and this is an absolute no as far as many
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Speaker 2: people in Cornwall in the church are concerned. Parochial church
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Speaker 2: councils are very powerful part of the way churches are organized.
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Speaker 2: Each church has its own parochial church council at the
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Speaker 2: present time unless they've already agreed to combine together. But
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Speaker 2: churches need to understand that if they combine they're pccs,
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Speaker 2: they will lose control of their own money. They will
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Speaker 2: lose control of their own finances because that one group
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Speaker 2: PCC will be deciding what happens to the money. So
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Speaker 2: although you may you may give to your church by
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Speaker 2: as John said, by standing order or buy what's called
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Speaker 2: putting money into the plate, it will be a group
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Speaker 2: PCC that decides how that money is to be spent.
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Speaker 2: And this is an aspect of on the way which
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Speaker 2: is particularly worrying. And pccs of in visual churches need
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Speaker 2: to have the courage to say they are not going
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Speaker 2: to do it. They have the power to say no.
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Speaker 2: And there certainly is one area of Cornwall which I
18:15
Speaker 2: know about where the oversight Minister was appointed and then
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Speaker 2: suggested that the pccs were combined, and there was actually
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Speaker 2: widespread opposition to that, and I think I'm right in
18:31
Speaker 2: saying that the combining, the combination has not happened.
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Speaker 1: That's extremely interesting. What was just in my head is that,
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Speaker 1: of course, if you combine these you control the money.
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Speaker 1: But what's actually happening is a centralization of power because
18:51
Speaker 1: instead of having to deal with eight local churches and
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Speaker 1: eight groups of people who are the normal human beings,
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Speaker 1: so they've got different ideas and different ideas and needs
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Speaker 1: and wants, you combine them into one group and then
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Speaker 1: it's easier to control that group to get where you
19:14
Speaker 1: want to be. And maybe that's a sorry, maybe that's
19:18
Speaker 1: an expansion of the on the way process, but maybe
19:21
Speaker 1: I'm being a bit suspicious.
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Speaker 2: Well maybe you are being suspicious, but there are quite
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Speaker 2: a number of other people in Cornwall who are very
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Speaker 2: very suspicious of this particular move to ask pccs to
19:35
Speaker 2: combine into one. There could also be the question that's
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Speaker 2: how many let's call them delegates and representatives of the churches,
19:47
Speaker 2: how many from each church. There could even be a
19:50
Speaker 2: suggestion that the larger the church, the more people that
19:55
Speaker 2: they can have representing on that PCC. That's a that's
20:02
Speaker 2: just a thought. But certainly this is a very very dangerous,
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Speaker 2: very dangerous move, right.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so we got this interesting project on the Way.
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Speaker 1: Where does it come from? Why is the Church of
20:18
Speaker 1: England suddenly talking about this project?
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Speaker 2: Well, the Church of England in some instances is talking
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Speaker 2: about this promise saying that congregations are so diminished since COVID,
20:33
Speaker 2: which does have a great deal of truth attached to it,
20:37
Speaker 2: that churches have lost a lot of their members since
20:41
Speaker 2: the COVID episode, let's call it. But they also talk
20:47
Speaker 2: a very great deal about not having any money to
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Speaker 2: pay clergy, and that certainly is one of the arguments
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Speaker 2: that's being used in Cornwall. It was certainly the argument
20:56
Speaker 2: that was being put forward when on the Way was
20:59
Speaker 2: first mentioned, brought out we don't have money to pay
21:06
Speaker 2: enough clergy, and that was that was said consistently and
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Speaker 2: a great many people took it on board. We have
21:15
Speaker 2: to accept this new project that we can't have an
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Speaker 2: ordained clergy because there isn't the money to pay them.
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Speaker 2: A dioces of Truro has in fact backpedaled on that
21:26
Speaker 2: to a great extent and has had to admit that
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Speaker 2: it's not one hundred percent the case that there isn't
21:33
Speaker 2: enough money to pay clergy. This change is actually ideological
21:40
Speaker 2: that the concept of a parish church with an ordained
21:44
Speaker 2: clergy person is now outdated and the diocese wants to
21:49
Speaker 2: get rid of it.
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Speaker 1: So what people if I have this gret, what people
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Speaker 1: are being told is that there's no money to pay
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Speaker 1: for the number of vicars needed for for a one church,
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Speaker 1: one vicar system, which is the historic system. There's no
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Speaker 1: money for this. And of course everybody I think in
22:08
Speaker 1: any parish would be aware of fundraising for the church.
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Speaker 1: It's usually fundraising for the church roof. That's a very
22:18
Speaker 1: common thing for people to want to raise money for.
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Speaker 1: But now we've got the church saying, well, we really
22:26
Speaker 1: haven't got money to be able to pay vicars. And
22:30
Speaker 1: the new way forward is that we're going to have
22:34
Speaker 1: to water down the system and one vicar is going
22:36
Speaker 1: to have to look after multiple churches. And as you
22:41
Speaker 1: point out, that also means that one vicar is now
22:44
Speaker 1: going to have to deal with a great increased number
22:46
Speaker 1: of people to look after their souls. So how is this,
22:52
Speaker 1: how's this new agenda from the Church of England. How
22:57
Speaker 1: has this manifested within the parishes? I mean, did it
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Speaker 1: come out as a as a written edict that this
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Speaker 1: is what we have to do because we haven't got
23:08
Speaker 1: any money. How is it? How how is this policy
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Speaker 1: appearing in the parishes.
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Speaker 2: There were there were a great many meetings took place
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Speaker 2: between representatives of the diocese and church wardens and parochial
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Speaker 2: church councils to tell them about this new schemes, of
23:33
Speaker 2: lots of assurances that everything would be fine because they
23:37
Speaker 2: were going to be new lay people, in other words,
23:41
Speaker 2: not ordained people who were going to be able to
23:44
Speaker 2: take services, so there would still be church services, but
23:49
Speaker 2: they would not be taken by, if you like, qualified
23:53
Speaker 2: ordained members of the clergy, and these these people would
23:58
Speaker 2: be appointed over the whole diocese, so that Vickers would
24:04
Speaker 2: would have, if you like, people who were working with them.
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Speaker 2: One of the most obvious responses to this is that
24:14
Speaker 2: if you don't have an ordained member of the clergy
24:18
Speaker 2: taking a congregation, you cannot have a service of Holy communion.
24:26
Speaker 2: And this, for a great many people is a great
24:30
Speaker 2: loss because the taking of Holy communion is a very
24:35
Speaker 2: special part of Christian life in the Anglican Church and
24:41
Speaker 2: suddenly it's not going to be there. So that's one
24:48
Speaker 2: of the one of the big effects of it. Lay
24:51
Speaker 2: ministry is what it's called, and lay ministry is going
24:56
Speaker 2: to be expanded massively.
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Speaker 1: So this is a very interesting concept if we put
25:04
Speaker 1: this in terms of if we put this in terms
25:08
Speaker 1: of a commercial organization, instead of having fully qualified people
25:14
Speaker 1: doing their jobs in order to save money, you're going
25:17
Speaker 1: to bring in people who are not qualified. There we
25:23
Speaker 1: could say they're amateurs. They may be enthusiastic amateurs, but
25:26
Speaker 1: they're going to be amateurs. And so the Church of
25:30
Speaker 1: England is saying, well, we haven't got any money, we're
25:32
Speaker 1: going to bring in amateurs to do what we're doing.
25:35
Speaker 1: Ross you are clearly very concerned with what's happening, and
25:41
Speaker 1: from what you've told me previously, it's clear that there
25:45
Speaker 1: are more people becoming concerned with the church. So how
25:50
Speaker 1: are people responding in the parish to this new edit,
25:54
Speaker 1: this new way forward? Are they upset? Are they challenge.
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Speaker 2: There are a great many people in Cornwall who are
26:05
Speaker 2: very upset about what has happened, what has already happened
26:11
Speaker 2: in their church, the loss of a loss of unordained
26:16
Speaker 2: clergyman or clergy clergy woman. I'd like to give you
26:22
Speaker 2: an example of one of the things that happened in
26:27
Speaker 2: a particular part of Cornwall. There was a village church
26:30
Speaker 2: which needed a new roof, and the church themselves started
26:37
Speaker 2: an appeal for a large sum of money to be
26:41
Speaker 2: able to repair the roof, and the village was incredibly supportive.
26:46
Speaker 2: People worked very hard. Grants were applied for which the
26:54
Speaker 2: church was awarded a number of grants, but a great
26:57
Speaker 2: deal of money was raised by the village by a
27:01
Speaker 2: great many people who were not attenders of the local church,
27:06
Speaker 2: and the roof was replaced, and the church arranged for
27:10
Speaker 2: there to be a service of celebration for the finish
27:13
Speaker 2: of this work, and an archdeacon, a senior ordained person
27:22
Speaker 2: in the diocese, was invited to the service, and that
27:29
Speaker 2: archdeacon stood in the pulpit and spoke to the congregation
27:35
Speaker 2: about how church buildings, Anglican church buildings with a vicar
27:42
Speaker 2: were a thing of the past, that people should stop
27:47
Speaker 2: thinking that this is what church was about. And here
27:50
Speaker 2: were people who had raised the money to repair the roof,
27:55
Speaker 2: And that member of the clergy stood in the pulpit
27:58
Speaker 2: and told them it was a thing of the past
28:00
Speaker 2: that they would have a church there in that village.
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Speaker 1: So ross is that this is extraordinary because this is
28:08
Speaker 1: almost as though the Church of England is unfolding a
28:14
Speaker 1: policy across Cornwall in this instance that is actually going
28:18
Speaker 1: to not only water down the influence of the churches
28:26
Speaker 1: and the place of the churches in society in Cornwall,
28:30
Speaker 1: but it's it's also going to be undermining them. We're
28:35
Speaker 1: going to we're going to see churches in Cornwall disappear.
28:39
Speaker 1: And the Church of England, from its highest level is saying, well,
28:43
Speaker 1: this is okay, we're going We're going to have to
28:46
Speaker 1: lose churches in order to move forward.
28:50
Speaker 2: That's exactly what they're saying. They're saying that organized religion
28:54
Speaker 2: in this way is a thing of the past, that's
28:59
Speaker 2: from of worship need to be taken out into the community,
29:04
Speaker 2: to go to football fields or shopping centers in people's
29:10
Speaker 2: private homes. That's that's the way that is now the
29:17
Speaker 2: way forward. And there are there are churches in a
29:20
Speaker 2: whole number of places in the Diocese of Truro which
29:24
Speaker 2: have started to be used as community centers. Community centers
29:30
Speaker 2: which do a whole variety of things and which also
29:33
Speaker 2: happen to have services on a Sunday.
29:38
Speaker 1: This is extremely interesting. And I'll just add that a
29:43
Speaker 1: number of people have pointed me at some comments are
29:48
Speaker 1: which are actually online. I think that they're actually connected
29:52
Speaker 1: with Save the Parish in Cornwall. But there's a particular
29:57
Speaker 1: gentleman called John Kenner, if I've pronounced that name correctly,
30:02
Speaker 1: and he's written and this is available to the public
30:06
Speaker 1: at large, but he's written some very interesting comments. He
30:09
Speaker 1: says that as treasurer of a church in East Cornwall,
30:14
Speaker 1: he's asked to be replaced, and he's written an article.
30:18
Speaker 1: And I'm going to read a little bit of his
30:21
Speaker 1: article in just a moment, but he says he's happy
30:23
Speaker 1: for it to be widely shared, and he says, I
30:27
Speaker 1: think what is happening is morally wrong, and he profoundly
30:32
Speaker 1: disagrees with the Diocese of Truro's policy and spending plans
30:41
Speaker 1: and the MMF is mission and Ministry of fund. So
30:46
Speaker 1: let me just read a little bit of what he says.
30:49
Speaker 1: He says this the Church of England has a problem.
30:52
Speaker 1: Congregations are falling. It is making changes with fewer clergy
30:58
Speaker 1: and larger groups of churches. I live in Cornwall, where
31:01
Speaker 1: the changes go under the title of on the Way
31:05
Speaker 1: Save the Parish in Cornwall argues that these changes are
31:08
Speaker 1: going to make things worse and it is campaigning against
31:12
Speaker 1: their implementation. I for one, cannot see how anyone could
31:16
Speaker 1: claim that the changes will make things better for parish churches,
31:21
Speaker 1: so conclude that the changes have a different aim. During
31:25
Speaker 1: his time in office, the recently departed Archbishop of Canterbury
31:29
Speaker 1: presided over a thirty percent decline in congregations. He blamed
31:35
Speaker 1: it on God, and then there's a quote, I am
31:39
Speaker 1: not sure I know what else could have been done,
31:42
Speaker 1: because in the end, the future of the church and
31:45
Speaker 1: its survival or otherwise does not depend on archbishops. It
31:49
Speaker 1: depends on God and the provenance of God. John continues.
31:55
Speaker 1: All the indications are that those at the top have
31:58
Speaker 1: concluded that the decline will conte you and that in
32:01
Speaker 1: the long term parish churches are a lost cause. Now,
32:06
Speaker 1: the Church of England has an income of around three
32:09
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty million pounds from property and investment, so
32:15
Speaker 1: archbishops and bishops and their support staff and a lot
32:19
Speaker 1: else besides will still be viable even when the last
32:23
Speaker 1: parish church is boarded up. But if it's not going
32:26
Speaker 1: to look incongruous as an admiralty with no ships or
32:30
Speaker 1: the hospital in the s Prime Minister with no patients,
32:33
Speaker 1: it has to find a new role for itself. Cornwell's
32:36
Speaker 1: Bishop Hugh, when talking about on the Way on Politics
32:41
Speaker 1: South Where, said there will be slightly fewer clergy if
32:45
Speaker 1: this plan is fully implemented, but there will be more
32:49
Speaker 1: people doing work on behalf of the church, including for instance,
32:54
Speaker 1: more people working with children and young people, and more
32:58
Speaker 1: people working in the kind of things we do to
33:01
Speaker 1: support people in the most deprived communities, so food banks
33:06
Speaker 1: and debt support. Ross. I think you're aware of this
33:10
Speaker 1: particular piece of text by John the treasurer of a church.
33:16
Speaker 1: What do you think about what he said? Do you
33:19
Speaker 1: do you agree with what he said? Do you understand
33:21
Speaker 1: with what he's talking about?
33:23
Speaker 2: I understand exactly what he's talking about, and I agree
33:25
Speaker 2: with him one hundred percent. I agree with him. I
33:29
Speaker 2: agree with him one hundred percent. Yes. Interestingly, where John
33:34
Speaker 2: says that the Church of England is going to continue
33:38
Speaker 2: with its bishops and its administrators, but there won't be
33:42
Speaker 2: any church. Interestingly, at the present time, the Diocese of
33:50
Speaker 2: Truro has about sixty one names on its list of
33:58
Speaker 2: people who work for them who don't work in churches
34:03
Speaker 2: at all. These are people who work in the diocese's
34:06
Speaker 2: admin offices, and that number of people is just about
34:12
Speaker 2: equal to the number of clergy working in the diocese.
34:17
Speaker 2: So that head office, if you like, has this extraordinary
34:21
Speaker 2: number of people working at it. And in fact, this
34:24
Speaker 2: gentleman has attached an appendix with the list of all
34:29
Speaker 2: the people who are working in the diocese, and it's
34:34
Speaker 2: equal to the number of clergy who are actually working
34:39
Speaker 2: in parishes. I can't give you, I can't give you
34:44
Speaker 2: the concrete evidence, but it is acknowledged even by the
34:51
Speaker 2: church commissioners that projects like on the Way, which have
34:56
Speaker 2: existed in other parts of England, have not been a success.
35:03
Speaker 2: The most notable one that we know about happened in Wigan,
35:13
Speaker 2: where the project was eventually closed down a number of
35:19
Speaker 2: churches had closed completely. The church commissioners declared the project
35:27
Speaker 2: to have been a failure. And yet here we are
35:31
Speaker 2: in Cornwall with an almost identical project being pushed ahead
35:38
Speaker 2: by the Suffragan bishop who is acting Bishop of Truro
35:44
Speaker 2: at the moment and his advisors and staff in the diocese.
35:49
Speaker 2: So a project which has been shown not to work
35:54
Speaker 2: in other parts of the country, and yet in Cornwall
35:57
Speaker 2: it's been steamrollered ahead, steam roll ahead.
36:01
Speaker 1: I'm obviously learning as you're talking me through this, and
36:05
Speaker 1: I've learnt a lot from reading the text that John wrote.
36:11
Speaker 1: Let me just read another bit and then for the audience,
36:14
Speaker 1: I'll read out some of the diocesan team that you're
36:18
Speaker 1: referring to. You're saying, well, in one hand, the Church
36:21
Speaker 1: of England is saying they haven't got enough money to
36:23
Speaker 1: pay vicers to do the proper job of a vicar.
36:28
Speaker 1: But on the other hand there's a huge team working
36:31
Speaker 1: for the dioceses which is obviously costing a huge amount
36:34
Speaker 1: of money. I'll come on to that team in the minute.
36:37
Speaker 1: Let's listen to another quote from this gentleman called John.
36:40
Speaker 1: He says, there is surely a question as to whether
36:43
Speaker 1: the pccs, the parochial church councils, are doing the right
36:47
Speaker 1: thing in paying the MMF, which is described as voluntary.
36:53
Speaker 1: People like me give some money from their pension or
36:56
Speaker 1: income to support various good causes of their choice, and
37:00
Speaker 1: I used to believe that what I gave my local
37:03
Speaker 1: church benefited my local church. If I had wanted to
37:07
Speaker 1: support the wider work of the Church of England, I
37:10
Speaker 1: would have given to that cause. The parochial church councils
37:15
Speaker 1: are not only trustees of a charity whose first duty
37:18
Speaker 1: is to make sure the charity's assets are only used
37:22
Speaker 1: to support or carry out its purposes. They are also
37:25
Speaker 1: entrusted by donors with their money. How can the p
37:30
Speaker 1: CC assume it has donor's approval to give away their
37:34
Speaker 1: money when it has no idea what it will be
37:37
Speaker 1: spent on, and when the amount requested is based purely
37:41
Speaker 1: on what the diocese thinks it can get away with
37:45
Speaker 1: rather than specified needs. In the case of my own church,
37:49
Speaker 1: I very much doubt those who give to the church
37:53
Speaker 1: by Stanley Order or via the collection plate realize that
37:57
Speaker 1: fifty nine percent of everything they give goes to pay
38:03
Speaker 1: the MMF, and let's remind people that's the Mission and
38:08
Speaker 1: Ministry Fund. I didn't, and I was horrified when I
38:13
Speaker 1: found out. It all seems far removed from what is
38:17
Speaker 1: most important to me, worshiping God with others, maintaining an
38:21
Speaker 1: old building to worship in and trying to make a
38:24
Speaker 1: difference to our community. And after this statement, John goes
38:29
Speaker 1: on to list some of these positions in the dioce
38:32
Speaker 1: and team, and let's read out a few. We're not
38:35
Speaker 1: going to name people because that will be unfair, but
38:38
Speaker 1: we can talk about their positions. So we've got an
38:41
Speaker 1: operations department which has an operations Manager, an operation assistant,
38:47
Speaker 1: Creation care and Operations assistant, safeguarding, an operations assistant, Database administrator.
38:57
Speaker 1: We have Building's Environment and Land, a DAC Secretary. We
39:02
Speaker 1: have a Diocese and Environment Officer, an operations assistant, a
39:07
Speaker 1: cut carbon support Officer, Brackets Churches, Church Buildings and support officer.
39:15
Speaker 1: Under Change and Renewal, we have a Director of Change
39:17
Speaker 1: and Renewal. We have a program Manager. We have a
39:20
Speaker 1: Project Support Officer Carnmouth North. We have a Project Support
39:26
Speaker 1: Officer East Wivelshire. We have a Project Sport Officer Carrier.
39:31
Speaker 1: We have a Project support Officer Carnmouth South. We have
39:35
Speaker 1: a data analyst and we have a project support person
39:38
Speaker 1: for Change and Renewal, we have a Head of Communications.
39:42
Speaker 1: We have an out of ours Communications support and then
39:46
Speaker 1: we have a let me count these one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
39:51
Speaker 1: deanery liaison officers. We have under governance a dioces secretary,
39:57
Speaker 1: we have a Head of Operations and government, we have
40:01
Speaker 1: two Information and Governance officers, and under education we have
40:06
Speaker 1: Director of Education, Education Governance, Lead Education, spoort officers, School's
40:11
Speaker 1: creation care officer, cut carbon support officers of school and
40:16
Speaker 1: then it moves into finance, and then later after a
40:21
Speaker 1: few more posts, it does actually get into the ministry aspect.
40:25
Speaker 1: So I've not meant this gentleman called John, and I
40:30
Speaker 1: must say I'd be fascinating to meet him, because he's
40:33
Speaker 1: really gripping the heart of the matter. On one hand,
40:37
Speaker 1: we have the Church of England telling its parishioners that
40:40
Speaker 1: we don't have money to repair the churches, we don't
40:43
Speaker 1: have money to pay for the vicars, and yet we
40:46
Speaker 1: have How do I describe this well, I could ask
40:49
Speaker 1: you Ross, this is almost a quasi.
40:53
Speaker 2: It's a corporate structure. Yes, that's how a great many
40:58
Speaker 2: of us view it. It's a corporate structure. It becomes
41:02
Speaker 2: more inflated every year, and.
41:04
Speaker 1: We don't know the value of salaries amongst these people,
41:09
Speaker 1: because it's not clear who of them are full time
41:12
Speaker 1: paid staff and who are volunteers possible.
41:15
Speaker 2: And there are certainly a number of staff who are
41:17
Speaker 2: only part time.
41:19
Speaker 1: So when this policy came into Cornwall, the Bishop of
41:22
Speaker 1: Truro was the main person who seemed to be projecting it.
41:26
Speaker 1: He was the person who was effectively selling it to
41:30
Speaker 1: the Christians in Cornwall. How did he do that? What
41:36
Speaker 1: did the Bishop of Truro at that stage have to
41:39
Speaker 1: say about this new policy?
41:42
Speaker 2: Can we name the person who was Bishop of Trurou
41:44
Speaker 2: at that time, Bishop Philip and Stephen who moved from
41:50
Speaker 2: the Diocese of Trurou to the Diocese of Winchester. And
41:55
Speaker 2: we are awaiting a new bishop who's due to becoming
42:00
Speaker 2: next month. In the intervening period, the suffragan bishop, if
42:06
Speaker 2: you like, the junior Bishop of Truro has been pushing
42:11
Speaker 2: ahead with this, Bishop Hugh. And it does seem that
42:20
Speaker 2: the number of staff working at the diocese simply consistently increase,
42:27
Speaker 2: whilst the number of if you like, qualified ordained clergy diminishes,
42:35
Speaker 2: so that at some point, if this were to continue,
42:41
Speaker 2: there would be almost no ordained clergy in Cornwall, but
42:45
Speaker 2: the number of people working for the diocese would be
42:49
Speaker 2: exactly the same.
42:52
Speaker 1: I'm viewing this from outside the Christian circle in Cornwall,
42:58
Speaker 1: but as you described this ross, what comes into my
43:01
Speaker 1: mind is that it's almost like the senior figures in
43:05
Speaker 1: the church are trying to destroy the church structure in Cornwall.
43:10
Speaker 2: That's exactly how it feels to a great many, a
43:14
Speaker 2: great many Anglicans in the diocese.
43:18
Speaker 1: I know, I know that he's now moved on, but
43:21
Speaker 1: did anybody challenge the Bishop of Truro, Did any of
43:27
Speaker 1: the parishes trying and discuss what was happening and pushed
43:33
Speaker 1: back on what his plans were, And if they did,
43:37
Speaker 1: how did he react to that?
43:40
Speaker 2: There certainly were people who questioned it and who tried
43:43
Speaker 2: to push back. The bishop reacted frankly, with intense anger.
43:51
Speaker 2: That's the only way to describe it.
43:55
Speaker 1: That's a pretty extraordinary statement, because one would have thought
43:59
Speaker 1: that the senior person in the Church of England, if
44:04
Speaker 1: he was carrying out God's work in a Christian spirit,
44:07
Speaker 1: would have reacted in a very understanding way to somebody
44:14
Speaker 1: that was trying to challenge what he's doing. So to
44:19
Speaker 1: be told that he got angry, I think my brain says,
44:24
Speaker 1: why did he get angry. Why would he be angry
44:29
Speaker 1: because somebody was asking questions about what his policy was.
44:33
Speaker 1: Do you have an explanation.
44:35
Speaker 2: I have no explanation for it, except that it felt
44:39
Speaker 2: positively dictatorial.
44:41
Speaker 1: Today. What's the situation in Cornwall today with respect to
44:48
Speaker 1: this policy? Has everybody now accepted it and it's rolling
44:54
Speaker 1: out and there's nothing that can be done about it?
44:57
Speaker 1: Or do you think that there has been enough of
45:00
Speaker 1: push back from the people concerned in order to make
45:05
Speaker 1: people think and consider is this the right policy? Is
45:10
Speaker 1: it a fatal company? Now? Do you think there's still
45:13
Speaker 1: time for people to do things?
45:14
Speaker 2: I think there is still time for this projects to
45:19
Speaker 2: be halted. The crux of the matter is that pccs,
45:25
Speaker 2: parochial church councils and churchwardens need to understand they don't
45:34
Speaker 2: have to do what a bishop tells them to do.
45:39
Speaker 2: Parochial church councils have considerable power, which a great many
45:45
Speaker 2: of them simply don't realize that they can say the
45:48
Speaker 2: word no. They don't realize that they can refuse to
45:56
Speaker 2: go ahead with the project. Even if they have a
45:59
Speaker 2: great to do it in the past, they can still
46:03
Speaker 2: decide not to do it. Parochial church councils are very
46:08
Speaker 2: powerful bodies. In fact, they don't have to do what
46:13
Speaker 2: their own clergy tell them to do. They don't have
46:16
Speaker 2: to do what bishops tell them to do. In a
46:20
Speaker 2: county like Cornwall, which is largely rural and which to
46:28
Speaker 2: some extent, there is still a belief that if the
46:35
Speaker 2: diocese tells you to do something, you must do it.
46:40
Speaker 2: If the bishop tells you to do something, that you
46:43
Speaker 2: must do it. Actually you don't have to do it.
46:47
Speaker 2: You can say no. And I think that's something that
46:52
Speaker 2: needs to be understood in the county as a whole,
47:00
Speaker 2: that if you're in one of the areas where there
47:03
Speaker 2: is one particular area in Cornwall where twenty two churches
47:09
Speaker 2: have been effectively joined together with something like two ordained clergy,
47:19
Speaker 2: it's an absolute disaster and no one can understand how
47:25
Speaker 2: those twenty two, possibly it might even be twenty three churches,
47:30
Speaker 2: no one can understand how they have agreed to go
47:34
Speaker 2: ahead with it, probably because they don't realize they can
47:39
Speaker 2: say the word no.
47:42
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting point. Now I don't know, so
47:49
Speaker 1: I'm again, I'm just looking at this room. I'm looking
47:52
Speaker 1: in from the outside. But what I have noticed in
47:56
Speaker 1: quite a lot of the documentation that I've seen coming
47:59
Speaker 1: out of the Church of England, not not necessarily on
48:04
Speaker 1: matters to do with with churches and the plan in Cornwall,
48:08
Speaker 1: but also for a wider objective across UK is they
48:14
Speaker 1: are using in their documentation a lot of language which
48:17
Speaker 1: I regard as as really highly political. It's the sort
48:22
Speaker 1: of language that you see coming out of the centralized
48:25
Speaker 1: government in the job titles that I've just listed that
48:30
Speaker 1: John has pointed out the moment I see cut carbon
48:37
Speaker 1: support the Church of England talking about cut carbon support.
48:43
Speaker 1: This isn't This isn't spiritual comment. This is a political
48:48
Speaker 1: agenda which which are the churches somehow gripped and is
48:54
Speaker 1: now by sometimes I think, using some fairly devious language.
48:59
Speaker 1: It is it's trying to draw its own congregation into
49:03
Speaker 1: following a political agenda. I'm being a little bit I'm
49:08
Speaker 1: being a little bit controversial here, but this is something
49:11
Speaker 1: that I certainly see going on. How did the church,
49:16
Speaker 1: How is the church convincing local people that they should
49:20
Speaker 1: take on this new policy.
49:23
Speaker 2: I wish I could answer that question, because I don't
49:26
Speaker 2: think I can answer it. It's interesting that you should
49:29
Speaker 2: be mentioning carbon because in the diocesan budget for the
49:36
Speaker 2: year ahead that was agreed at a particular type of
49:42
Speaker 2: church meeting which is called a synod. At the General
49:46
Speaker 2: Synod of the diocese meeting which took place just a
49:51
Speaker 2: few weeks back, the budget was voted through. There was
49:57
Speaker 2: some opposition to it, which is very interesting that opposition
50:03
Speaker 2: was largely, but not exclusively, coming from members who were
50:08
Speaker 2: associated with the organization save the Parish. But one of
50:13
Speaker 2: the items in the budget which was of great concern
50:17
Speaker 2: was the amount that the diocese plans to spend in
50:23
Speaker 2: the coming year on making alterations to parsonages, in other words,
50:32
Speaker 2: clergy houses, vicarages to install triple glazing. So some of
50:40
Speaker 2: those houses will only have single glazing. Some of them
50:46
Speaker 2: actually have double glazing, but the project is to put
50:52
Speaker 2: triple glazing in all the parsonages. It seems that the
50:58
Speaker 2: Church of England is becoming more and more obsessed with
51:04
Speaker 2: saving the planet and less and less concerned with looking
51:11
Speaker 2: after people's souls. My argument would be that the primary
51:20
Speaker 2: purpose of the church is the cure of souls, the
51:26
Speaker 2: looking after of your soul. There are millions of people
51:32
Speaker 2: saving the planet in one way or another. Let them
51:37
Speaker 2: do it. The Church of England doesn't need to abandon
51:42
Speaker 2: the cure of souls while it looks after the planet.
51:47
Speaker 2: It can hand that over to someone else while it
51:52
Speaker 2: sticks to its core function, which is the cure of souls.
52:00
Speaker 1: Yep, this is fascinating. While you were talking through that,
52:03
Speaker 1: my mind came back to an article that the UK
52:09
Speaker 1: Column published back in January twenty twenty one, and.
52:14
Speaker 2: It was.
52:15
Speaker 1: Entitled Wellbe's that's Archbishop of Canterbury. Of course, Wellby's Church
52:21
Speaker 1: of England twenty twenty one, trillions for Gaya greed, but
52:28
Speaker 1: peanuts for the parish paupers. And Gaia was a reference
52:33
Speaker 1: to saving the world Mother Earth, which is an interesting
52:41
Speaker 1: concept because we could argue that that's completely out of
52:46
Speaker 1: the Christian belief system. But maybe that's for another time.
52:51
Speaker 1: But what was this article about. I'm certainly going to
52:54
Speaker 1: encourage people who listened to this discussion with Ross today
52:59
Speaker 1: to go on to the UK Column website and have
53:03
Speaker 1: a look for that. If you put Wellby's Church of
53:05
Speaker 1: England twenty twenty one into the search bar, you will
53:09
Speaker 1: find it. But what we were pointing out was that
53:15
Speaker 1: the Archbishop of Canterbury, in a number of public statements
53:21
Speaker 1: and articles, was very, very excited that he was able
53:26
Speaker 1: to work with international global corporations in order to raise
53:35
Speaker 1: money effectively to save the world through save the world
53:40
Speaker 1: from climate change and to protect the environment. And we
53:46
Speaker 1: were talking huge amounts of money. So the Archbishop of
53:51
Speaker 1: Canterbury was beside himself with happiness that he was able
53:56
Speaker 1: to work with these global corporations to raise multiple trillions
54:01
Speaker 1: of pounds And the figure actually quoted was seventeen point
54:07
Speaker 1: one two trillion pounds sterling in order to save planet Earth.
54:16
Speaker 1: But you are sat with me saying this is remarkable
54:19
Speaker 1: because at the same time well Archbishop, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Welby.
54:27
Speaker 1: Wellby's now moved on in disgrace. But at the time
54:31
Speaker 1: he was making this statement, people in the parishes were
54:35
Speaker 1: having to raise their own money to look after the
54:39
Speaker 1: church roof and to support their local vicar. So there's
54:46
Speaker 1: something very strange going on here because we've gone an
54:50
Speaker 1: immensely powerful Church of England. Still it's got an Archbishop
54:55
Speaker 1: of Canterbury that is able to boast he can be
54:58
Speaker 1: on a world stay with hedge funds and global businesses
55:04
Speaker 1: to raise trillions of pounds seventeen trillion pounds to save
55:10
Speaker 1: the world. But when his representatives, the Bishop of Truau
55:16
Speaker 1: is employed in Cornwall in order to look after the flock,
55:22
Speaker 1: the Christian people in Cornwall, then all of a sudden,
55:25
Speaker 1: there's no money. We've got to get rid of Vickers.
55:28
Speaker 1: We've got a group up churches. Unfortunately we may lose some,
55:33
Speaker 1: but not to worry about that, because we're moving forward
55:37
Speaker 1: into a new era of the church. In action to me,
55:45
Speaker 1: I detect hypocrisy. I detect well unbelievable hypocrisy. I detect deceit,
55:53
Speaker 1: because if the Church of England is able to raise
55:56
Speaker 1: trillions on a world's age, why is it unable to
56:02
Speaker 1: raise a few million to support what's needed locally? And
56:07
Speaker 1: I detect that the priority is a political agenda rather
56:12
Speaker 1: than a spiritual agenda for local people. But you tell
56:17
Speaker 1: me Ross if I'm if I got this wrong.
56:20
Speaker 2: I don't think you've got it wrong at all. I
56:23
Speaker 2: think there's a there's a great deal of truth in
56:25
Speaker 2: what in what you say there. And personally, I'm very
56:30
Speaker 2: very concerned about the Church's emphasis on let's call it
56:35
Speaker 2: saving the planet as opposed to to looking after people
56:40
Speaker 2: in other ways, but actually just to take us off
56:44
Speaker 2: in a slightly different, slightly different direction. There is also
56:50
Speaker 2: another agenda at work here, which is that there is
56:58
Speaker 2: a big push for taking the Church of England done
57:05
Speaker 2: what is known as the evangelical route, which is taking
57:10
Speaker 2: church out of the consecrated buildings and putting it out
57:16
Speaker 2: in virtually any other kind of building in fact, and
57:22
Speaker 2: getting rid of traditional worship. There is a big push
57:28
Speaker 2: to get rid of traditional forms of worship. A great
57:32
Speaker 2: many churches have decided to do that already. There is
57:42
Speaker 2: the evangelical style of worship, very modern, not to use
57:49
Speaker 2: an organ, but to have a worship band, not to
57:55
Speaker 2: have very many services of holy communion at all, not
58:00
Speaker 2: to use the orders of service that are sanctioned by
58:04
Speaker 2: the Church of England, to have church become.
58:11
Speaker 1: Perhaps more acceptable to everybody.
58:15
Speaker 2: There's a big push to say that evangelical styles of
58:19
Speaker 2: worship are the only way in which you will get
58:22
Speaker 2: young people into church. Actually this is not necessarily true.
58:29
Speaker 2: It may be true in some areas in some places.
58:32
Speaker 2: In other areas, it very much isn't what appeals to
58:37
Speaker 2: younger people if they are going to be interested in church.
58:42
Speaker 2: As far as Cornwall is concerned, there is a sizeable
58:47
Speaker 2: proportion of the people of Cornwall who are of pensionable age,
58:56
Speaker 2: and for them traditional forms of worship are very very important.
59:02
Speaker 2: They find it impossible in many instances, not all, but
59:07
Speaker 2: in many instances they find it impossible to adapt to
59:12
Speaker 2: the modern forms of worship. And in fact we know
59:17
Speaker 2: very well that there are people who have left their
59:20
Speaker 2: own parish church because the forms of worship are no
59:25
Speaker 2: longer traditional or recognizable. Evangelical worship typically gets away with books.
59:37
Speaker 2: They don't like hymn books, and so the congregation is
59:43
Speaker 2: expected to read the words of the music, which are
59:47
Speaker 2: not called hymns, they're called songs, and the congregation is
59:51
Speaker 2: expected to read these from a large white screen which
59:56
Speaker 2: is push up off and obliterating a view of the
1:00:04
Speaker 2: high altar with let's say, a stained glass window behind it,
1:00:10
Speaker 2: so that those are no longer visible, and the congregation
1:00:15
Speaker 2: are expected to sing the words which are there on
1:00:20
Speaker 2: the screen. The services are actually non conformist, and you
1:00:27
Speaker 2: might be interested to know that the person at the
1:00:33
Speaker 2: Diocese of Truro who was responsible for the clergy recently appointed,
1:00:41
Speaker 2: is not a member of the Church of England. He
1:00:43
Speaker 2: is a Methodist.
1:00:45
Speaker 1: This is fascinating. I think we're going to have to
1:00:49
Speaker 1: be a little bit careful with the time here because
1:00:52
Speaker 1: we're coming up to the top of the hour, but
1:00:55
Speaker 1: I'm just going to respond that you we initially started
1:00:59
Speaker 1: out with raising questions about and concerns around the Church
1:01:04
Speaker 1: of England's program for churches in Cornwall, and this new
1:01:10
Speaker 1: program has been sold on the from the point that
1:01:14
Speaker 1: the church is saying it hasn't got money, when clearly
1:01:17
Speaker 1: it has got money. And now you're introducing a parallel policy,
1:01:23
Speaker 1: if I can use that expression, which appears to be
1:01:26
Speaker 1: watering down what it is to be a Christian within
1:01:30
Speaker 1: the Church of England itself. And I just wanted to
1:01:34
Speaker 1: add in. This came into my mind while you were talking,
1:01:36
Speaker 1: because it came to my attention that when King Charles
1:01:42
Speaker 1: presented his or gave his Christmas speech to the nation,
1:01:47
Speaker 1: he did it from the Fitzrovia Chapel in London. And
1:01:53
Speaker 1: what I found interesting about this was, of course to
1:01:55
Speaker 1: the wider public, it looked as if he was in
1:02:00
Speaker 1: a church and he was giving a Christmas message from
1:02:05
Speaker 1: within a church, and everything to do with the video
1:02:08
Speaker 1: clip of his talk reinforces that you're in a chapel.
1:02:14
Speaker 1: It's a very beautiful chapel. The architecture is superb, and
1:02:18
Speaker 1: here is King Charles giving his Christmas message. But the
1:02:22
Speaker 1: reality is that that chapel is actually unconsecrated. And I
1:02:31
Speaker 1: was really stunned when I discovered this, because I thought
1:02:34
Speaker 1: it was incredibly deceitful of the King to be presenting
1:02:39
Speaker 1: himself as being within a Christian space, a place of
1:02:43
Speaker 1: Christian worship, when in actual fact it was nothing of
1:02:46
Speaker 1: the sort. It was an unconsecrated community space. And ross
1:02:53
Speaker 1: you know, maybe this is me and it's a fall
1:02:57
Speaker 1: to me, but you're talking about the watering down of
1:03:01
Speaker 1: the Church of England and the Christian faith. And I
1:03:05
Speaker 1: just find it remarkable that I picked up in December
1:03:10
Speaker 1: Christmas just gone the King playing the same tricks, which
1:03:15
Speaker 1: was he was presenting himself as if he was in church,
1:03:19
Speaker 1: but actually he was not in church. He was in
1:03:22
Speaker 1: a community space. And if people want to understand a
1:03:27
Speaker 1: little bit more of that though, the chapel itself was
1:03:31
Speaker 1: connected with the former Middlesex Hospital and it is not
1:03:36
Speaker 1: and was not ever consecrated, And I think it's impossible
1:03:43
Speaker 1: for anybody to suggest that King Charles did not understand
1:03:47
Speaker 1: that when he stood in front of the camera. I
1:03:50
Speaker 1: believe the opposite is true, that he knew perfectly well
1:03:54
Speaker 1: he was in an unconsecrated community space, and this was
1:03:59
Speaker 1: to give up softer message of what it is to
1:04:02
Speaker 1: be inverted Commas Christian.
1:04:06
Speaker 2: That's very interesting, but because of course, in a way,
1:04:10
Speaker 2: a similar sort of thing happened during Lockdown when the
1:04:14
Speaker 2: Archbishop of Canterbury had closed all the Anglican churches, as
1:04:19
Speaker 2: I said, previously, had forbidden clergy to go into their
1:04:24
Speaker 2: own churches, and he celebrated communion on the Easter Sunday
1:04:34
Speaker 2: in his kitchen at Lambeth Palace, and this caused widespread,
1:04:42
Speaker 2: actually widespread I would use the word disgust amongst many
1:04:48
Speaker 2: many people in the Church of England who said he
1:04:53
Speaker 2: had a perfectly good consecrated space, a chapel inside Lambert
1:05:00
Speaker 2: Palace and he did not use it to celebrate Holy
1:05:05
Speaker 2: Communion or the Eucharist, as it's known to some people.
1:05:09
Speaker 2: On probably the most important day of the church's year,
1:05:17
Speaker 2: which was Easter Sunday, the day that celebrated the resurrection
1:05:22
Speaker 2: of the Son of God. He chose to celebrate it
1:05:26
Speaker 2: in his kitchen and that was so offensive to so
1:05:31
Speaker 2: many people within the church, and he, as Archbishop of Canterbury,
1:05:37
Speaker 2: appeared not to be aware that what he was doing
1:05:41
Speaker 2: would upset so many people.
1:05:44
Speaker 1: Well, that's a very interesting point and I wasn't aware
1:05:47
Speaker 1: that he'd done that, and it's very interesting to understand
1:05:51
Speaker 1: that now. But of course will remind the audience that
1:05:54
Speaker 1: this is the same Archbishop of Canterbury that had to
1:05:57
Speaker 1: resign his position from failing to protect vulnerable people from
1:06:03
Speaker 1: abuse within the Church of England. So we can use
1:06:08
Speaker 1: the word I think duplicit us quite safely that whatever's
1:06:12
Speaker 1: been going on at the top of the Church of England,
1:06:15
Speaker 1: it seems that leadership for what it is to be
1:06:19
Speaker 1: a Christian and what the Christian Church should be doing
1:06:21
Speaker 1: this has been falling away. Let's just end with I
1:06:28
Speaker 1: think something a little bit more direct. So Ross, you've
1:06:32
Speaker 1: taken us through a lot of very interesting points around
1:06:36
Speaker 1: what's happening, almost an undermining of the church in Cornwall.
1:06:41
Speaker 1: What would you say to people in the congregations of
1:06:46
Speaker 1: churches in Cornwall what should they and in the parishes
1:06:50
Speaker 1: what should people be doing in order to challenge what
1:06:56
Speaker 1: is being I'm going to say enforced on them. What
1:07:00
Speaker 1: can people do in order to speak out and stop
1:07:07
Speaker 1: this agenda?
1:07:09
Speaker 2: I think there should be an absolute concentration on putting
1:07:19
Speaker 2: forward this absolute fact that you do not have to
1:07:25
Speaker 2: do what the diocese tells you. They may threaten you
1:07:33
Speaker 2: with the enclosure because you won't, you won't have a
1:07:37
Speaker 2: you won't have a priest, so you'll have to close
1:07:39
Speaker 2: the church. Anyway, If enough people actually put their heads
1:07:45
Speaker 2: above the parapet and say, actually, we are not going
1:07:50
Speaker 2: to do this, I think the diocese will have to
1:07:55
Speaker 2: take notice. They can be very frightening, there is no
1:07:58
Speaker 2: doubt about that. But I think the word needs to
1:08:02
Speaker 2: get out there widely that parochial church councils in churchwardens
1:08:09
Speaker 2: can say the word no. There hasn't been enough of
1:08:14
Speaker 2: that in Cornwall and certainly the organization Save the Parish,
1:08:20
Speaker 2: which is working very hard to get information out to
1:08:24
Speaker 2: people on how to withstand what feels what actually feels
1:08:29
Speaker 2: like a steamroller on behalf of the diocese. It's time
1:08:35
Speaker 2: for people who really believe this is the wrong way
1:08:41
Speaker 2: for us to be going. We should be looking at
1:08:44
Speaker 2: more ordained clergy in parishes, not taking the way for
1:08:50
Speaker 2: those members of the clergy to get out there in
1:08:53
Speaker 2: their own parishes, to be seen in the local petrol station,
1:08:58
Speaker 2: to be seen in the local to be a living, obvious,
1:09:04
Speaker 2: visible part of a parish, to show how important they
1:09:10
Speaker 2: are and the work that they are willing to do.
1:09:15
Speaker 2: There needs to be people ready to stand up and say, actually,
1:09:19
Speaker 2: we're not going to do this, we are not going
1:09:22
Speaker 2: to do it.
1:09:23
Speaker 1: No is a powerful word to use, but of course
1:09:26
Speaker 1: to use the word no also requires courage.
1:09:29
Speaker 2: It does require courage. It does require courage. And the diocese,
1:09:37
Speaker 2: the hierarchy, if you like, in the diocese know very
1:09:42
Speaker 2: well that they have behaved very threateningly towards members of
1:09:47
Speaker 2: the clergy who have tried to withstand on the way.
1:09:52
Speaker 2: There have been rumors of disciplinary action, I say, rumors
1:09:59
Speaker 2: of diciplinary action. It does take courage, and it's in
1:10:08
Speaker 2: the New Testament. It's there that Jesus said, you will
1:10:14
Speaker 2: need courage to withstand the things that happen if you
1:10:21
Speaker 2: do things which are in my name, So have courage.
1:10:26
Speaker 2: My words were to be have courage.
1:10:31
Speaker 1: You've pointed out how important it is for people to
1:10:34
Speaker 1: have the courage to stand up and speak out about
1:10:38
Speaker 1: what's happening. What else would you say that people need
1:10:43
Speaker 1: to do in order to fight back against what's happening,
1:10:47
Speaker 1: not only just in the church, but probably now wide
1:10:50
Speaker 1: a lies Because I think more and more people realize
1:10:53
Speaker 1: that something's badly wrong. They no longer looked at politics
1:10:59
Speaker 1: to solve it because they don't have any trust in
1:11:03
Speaker 1: the political system or probably in MPs to do the
1:11:07
Speaker 1: right things. What else can people do alongside standing up
1:11:12
Speaker 1: to be counted.
1:11:15
Speaker 2: Well as churches? As I've said previously, parochial church councils
1:11:21
Speaker 2: and church wardens are actually very powerful people. They might
1:11:25
Speaker 2: not realize how powerful they are. They may not realize
1:11:29
Speaker 2: that they have the power to say no to the diocese,
1:11:33
Speaker 2: to say no to the bishops, but they do have
1:11:36
Speaker 2: that power, and it would be wonderful if they would
1:11:42
Speaker 2: use that power to say no, actually, we are we
1:11:47
Speaker 2: are not going to do this. The diocese can be
1:11:51
Speaker 2: quite it can be quite frightening in some circumstances. There
1:11:56
Speaker 2: have been rumors of our clergy being threatened if they
1:12:07
Speaker 2: criticize on the way under plans. But the big thing
1:12:13
Speaker 2: is to have courage to be ready and able to
1:12:19
Speaker 2: say the word no if you truly believe that your
1:12:23
Speaker 2: church should not be going down this route. And then
1:12:26
Speaker 2: of course the most valuable thing of all is to pray,
1:12:31
Speaker 2: to pray about it constantly, because the one person who
1:12:40
Speaker 2: can help you to make the difference is Christ himself.
1:12:47
Speaker 1: Ross, thank you very much. What a wonderful place to
1:12:51
Speaker 1: end on. So I'm going to say again thank you
1:12:54
Speaker 1: very much for joining me, and I will be fascinated
1:12:58
Speaker 1: to see what is once we get to this interview.
1:13:03
Speaker 1: And usually people come forward as a result of people
1:13:08
Speaker 1: talking about these interesting and sometimes worrying issue, So I
1:13:12
Speaker 1: will really look forward to seeing what the audience has
1:13:15
Speaker 1: to say. And if there are people out there who
1:13:18
Speaker 1: are sufficiently concerned about what you're describing and want to
1:13:25
Speaker 1: learn more, or particularly those who would like to stand
1:13:29
Speaker 1: up and be counted and help, then I'm going to say,
1:13:32
Speaker 1: please get in touch with the UK column and tell
1:13:36
Speaker 1: us a little bit about yourself and what you'd like
1:13:38
Speaker 1: to do. But Ross, thank you very much.
1:13:42
Speaker 2: One last thing that I would say. Information about save
1:13:46
Speaker 2: the Parish Cornwall can be found online. Simply type it
1:13:49
Speaker 2: in to your search engine and you will find save
1:13:53
Speaker 2: the Parish Cornwall with much very interesting information. Brilliant, Thank
1:13:59
Speaker 2: you very much, same few