Latest / Radically Genuine / 103. Psychedelics and the Spiritual Journey Within w/ Dr. Susan Hannan

Transcript

103. Psychedelics and the Spiritual Journey Within w/ Dr. Susan Hannan · Radically Genuine

• Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. If you can all bear with me for one minute. I want to thank everybody for five star ratings. You've heard this from me almost each podcast, but it's so important. One of the things you'll notice, we do not have ads. We don't have a large production company behind us. We don't devote any money to this. It's completely free. So this community is built only through listener sharing of the podcast. Five star ratings, reviews. So if everyone can right now just stop, hit subscribe, five stars, if you believe in what we're doing. The way this is growing is organically. We know that there needs to be change. If you're concerned about the trajectory of our society, of our healthcare system, of the way we think about and approach mental health, then we can only grow a new community if we have the willingness and openness to have these conversations and share these important episodes. So we want to appreciate everything that people have done for us in, in reaching out and sharing the message. We see the growth and we feel like we are on the verge of being able to make some substantial change. And that leads us today's podcast because I do believe we'd have to have an open mind. and we have to move beyond the structures that have been provided to us. We become limited in our ideas when we just blindly accept what we know now to be truth without critical analysis. This past week, we started a new training class at center for integrated behavioral health. And it's always an interesting moment for me because I begin to realize one, how old I'm getting. could not believe I was 20 years older than the two. One was a postdoctoral resident, the other was a doctor level extern who joined us. And when I think about like when they were born, their entire life includes cell phones and it includes an idea of living that has been communicated to them since birth. the idea of what mental illness is, the idea of what mental health treatment is. And I consider what their doctoral training looks like from an perspective of APA accreditation, which puts things in terms of diagnostic categories and psychotherapies. And I recently put something on social media that if you believe your only approach to facing or overcoming mental health problems is just psychotherapy or a psychiatric drug, then you've been brainwashed. How has society evolved over thousands and thousands of years? How have we begun? How have we been able to overcome horrific trauma, how we've been able to adapt and create life of purpose and meaning, you know, without psychotherapy, it's a modern invention. Where the idea of psychiatric drugs, which are really modern, I mean, we're talking about the past 30 years for the most part. So I wanted to open up a discussion that extended beyond what is known. And we had Dr. Craig Heacock on recently where he was talking about ketamine. And I'll be completely honest, this is an area of study for me that is new. I enter it with a open mind, a curious mind, a beginner's mind. I have concerns, but a lot of our listening audience and people on social media have asked us to begin to open up the conversation about psychedelics and alternatives. If not therapy, if not drugs, then what? Especially for people who are really suffering. And I think I come to this podcast today with a certain group in mind, those who've experienced some unspeakable traumas, have lived in some of the most horrific of circumstances, maybe with abusive or neglectful families, or have had to go through things that has really robbed them of the ability to feel safe and secure and feel disconnected from humans robs them of the human spirit to create to love. And so I do think when you look at the outcomes and you look at what we're how we're currently responding to people who are struggling with exposure to trauma, I think we all feel humbled. The group was Center for Integrated Behavioral Health started in 2012. In the time that I've owned this practice and worked at this practice, every available statistic demonstrates that as a culture, our American society, our mental health is worsening. I am part of a profession, an industry, where we don't really have strong evidence to suggest it helps anybody. That's humbling. There's higher rates of self-injury, high rates of hospitalization, episodic conditions are turning into chronic war. The way we respond to mental health problems, in my opinion, is worsening the crisis. So the question is what is next? What is next for us as a culture? If you care deeply about helping people who are suffering, intellectually you're curious. Your life purpose is around trying to support people who are in the depths of depression, overcome by fear, and trying to respond or react to events in their life that are incredibly painful. How are we guided? What is next for us? And I think always the first step is to acknowledge the problem, to be genuinely connected to the reality that exists. We're not helping the people we want to help. In order to advance that discussion today, we've brought back Dr. Susan Hannan. Welcome, Dr. Hannan. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be back. I think this is maybe the fourth time you've been with us. Fourth or fifth, I think. Fourth or fifth. And they've always been fascinating discussions because it's important, I think, from my perspective, to have another psychologist on the podcast, even when we benefit from, you know, Sean or Kelly or other guests. The way that a psychologist thinks, the way that a psychologist approaches their lives is a bit different. Like we're a bit philosophical, we're a bit scientific. It's just like interesting combination. And most psychologists are also deeply empathic, which drives that kind of work. Well Sean might be analytical or think about things from a different perspective. And you know, Kelly as a teacher is dealing with different things. So it's like that melding of diversity. is helpful. But when I bring another psychologist in, we can have depths of discussion that are related to our training and our field. And you are at an interesting place in your career because as we sit here today, you are on a research sabbatical. And you have an area or direction of research for you in particular that I think is moving beyond what is the known. and you are asking critical questions and you are thinking about things in a way that challenges the traditional or modern way of thinking about mental health. So I just wanna open it up and get a sense of like, where you are, you also have some lived experience in the areas that we're gonna discuss today, which I think is a fascinating opening. But maybe just tell us where you are in your career, you're thinking about... mental health, where you think we need to go, how this informs your research, anything in that area to kind of kickstart this. And we'll go from there. Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it. Because as you said, I am at this point where it seems like I'm taking a bit of a different path in terms of my research, and it's a little bit scary because it's unfamiliar. But it's It's like I'm walking this path that I can't ignore, if that makes sense. It's like I'm feeling drawn to it. So as I've talked about on previous episodes, historically my research has been on post-traumatic stress disorder, people's reactions to traumatic events, risk and resiliency factors associated with post-traumatic stress disorder. And while I think that research is really important and interesting, I'm finding myself being drawn to I guess other reactions to very stressful experiences, such as people's experiences with what we call psychosis and mania. And in my opinion, there is still so much fear and stigma associated with psychosis, associated with mania. And I know, at least according to the DSM, we... treat those two experiences as separate. But if you really look at the symptomology, there's so much overlap between the two, which I think is interesting. For our listening audience, can you just kind of define what mania is? Yeah, so mania is associated with bipolar disorder. So we can think about mood like anything being on a spectrum, right? And on one end of the spectrum, we have really low mood. Again, we can think of people who are in a very depressed state, who have very low energy, they're apathetic, they have a hard time engaging in activities that they find pleasurable, that would normally give them joy, they may be very isolated. When I think of someone who's in that very low depressed state, I think of someone who really truly has a difficult time just getting out of bed, right? Getting off the couch. It almost feels like there's a hundred pound weight sitting on top of them all the time. Now on the other end of that spectrum is what we call mania. Now mania is not just feeling good. It's not like, oh yes, I look great today and my hair's on point and I'm feeling really good about myself. Mania is excessively elevated mood, perhaps to the point of grandiosity, where one believes that they are Jesus Christ or another religious entity. And you know, it's... Superhuman powers, right? And that's the problem. It's okay. If you want to believe you're Jesus, that's one thing But then that might lead you to engage in really risky Potentially harmful behaviors, right? If you think you have superpowers and you think you can fly and you jump off a building that likely is not going to end Well for you. So that's I think one of the most dangerous things with manias It can you're in this mindset where you have these beliefs that again you can do these superhuman things, and that could understandably lead to some consequences. Also, racing thoughts with mania, having trouble attaching to any thoughts, and making coherent conversations, language, things like that. And again, this is all on a spectrum. There's hypomania, which you can consider low-grade mania, just like some people are severely depressed and other people have more mild depression. So that's at least right now our understanding of decrease need for sleep. Yeah, I energy things of that nature, right? Yep. Now the challenge for me with always mania is because it's not It's not so binary right it's not like you're manic or you're not manic it's a spectrum, right? So they've added in this Hypomania which can be really confusing because you said that it's not just feeling really good, but I've seen so many people Be diagnosed bipolar disorder because someone deemed them to be hypomanic. Yes. Right? And hypomanic is like this, I don't know, lukewarm version of mania. And it is feeling good. And which that is part of the normal human experience, especially if you are engaged in something that is really grasping your attention or you're passionate about. I know I have a tendency to skew towards hypomania. At times I can be very productive during those periods. I can be very energized. I can go through periods where I don't need as much sleep because I'm trying to complete things or answer important questions. And it's a great way of living. It's generally not consistent, right? It's you probably need some rest after that. But I... concerned about pathologizing it as modern psychiatry has pathologized it. That's what we do, right? That's what our culture does these days, is we have to have a label and a category for everything. And once, it seems like once that label is attached, right, then it becomes a disorder, it becomes something that is wrong. What I'm gonna say next, I can appreciate, is probably very controversial, but I'm kind of leaning towards this mindset now, where I think if we as humans are capable of experiencing something that is than in the realm of the quote normal human experience, just because it's very different than what someone else might experience. I don't know if that's a disorder. And let me clarify, I'm not trying to minimize some experiences of psychosis and mania. I know how self-destructive it can be. But self-destructive is different than disorder. It's different than pathology, at least in my mind. And when you talk about hypomania, like sometimes you might be experiencing that and it just seems not appropriate for the character. And he was bringing up the idea of like culturally relevant. So there are some cultures where maybe someone is very happy and exuberant and just like bleeds and it just shines off of them. You apply that same type of attitude to somebody here in the United States and they might call them hypomania. Right. I so appreciate you saying that. Yeah. There's some really interesting research too. on psychosis and schizophrenia in different cultures where let's say in some Eastern cultures and communities, they don't even have a word for schizophrenia. And again, it's not to say the person who's experiencing what we would call hallucinations, delusions, we're not saying that person isn't suffering or experiencing pain, but the way especially the family unit treats these individuals is radically different than how we do it in the States. Here, it's a disorder, you need to be loaded up with anti-psychotics, you might have to live in a psychiatric unit or residential home for the rest of your life. Very different conceptualizations in different cultures. Yeah, and other cultures might actually view it as a gift and then have you mentored with a shaman or some elder in a community to be able to like harness that gift in a way that serves the tribe or the community. Yes. Right. So this idea of medicalization is very Western culture. it is very United States, right, to consider it as a medical disease. And we just have to be aware of that because if we're talking about reclaiming new ways of thinking about the human experience, we have to be aware of the old structures or the structures that exist now, we've claimed them into truth, right? So the idea that something is a sickness or is an illness is something we've created an idea around it. Yeah, yep. So. Where does this lead you then as far as like to what you want to study? I went on a bit of a tangent there, didn't I? You were giving the DSM diagnosis. You asked me about my research and I like barely even talked about that. Right. So I'm interested in, so specifically with experience of psychosis and mania, I am curious about finding people who have been able to successfully navigate those experiences without the use of medication. So for example, without the use of antipsychotics, because that's typically what's prescribed. I mean, I think a lot of people who, at least in the states who are, let's say, diagnosed with schizophrenia are on a cocktail of medications, not just antipsychotics. But we know, and again, I do think specifically with antipsychotics, there might be a time and a place for that, but treatment planning doesn't really seem to exist, right? People are prescribed these medications and are just on them indefinitely. And we know specifically with antipsychotics, they can cause a host of other difficulties. Lots of folks gain significant weight. I'm talking 40, 50 pounds. So now they're dealing with other health issues, diabetes. I think it can lower your white blood cell count. I also read an article a little while ago. I'm not gonna remember the author's name. I apologize for that, but. that showed over time when folks were taking these anti-psychotic medications, it actually destroyed the part of the brain, atrophied the part of the brain that was supposed to heal, that it was supposed to help. So I'm just curious to talk to people who have been able to, I guess, live with these experiences without the use of medication, perhaps even without the use of psychotherapy, if they've been able to use perhaps meditation, mindfulness, yoga, whatever it might be to um, almost change their perspective about what's going on. And in my career, I've come across people who have experienced what we would label as psychosis and their belief around their psychosis is not that of pathology, right? Right. And in fact, they're very aware of how our medical system may view it. So they don't tell people now that might The other side of this might say that maybe that's a decreased level of pathology. Like it's not as severe if a person can have some distance and observe those experiences without any judgment. And there's a skill to that. But, um, their willingness to talk about that in the privacy or safety of a psychotherapy room under confidentiality is always after a relationship has been built and they feel, they feel safe to be able to discuss the experience. without judgment or fear that they could actually lose their own freedom and be, you know, hospitalized for such a behavior. And so, you know, there are lots of people out there who experience psychosis. They don't tell people they've experienced that because of fear of how they would be treated. Yep. Yeah, you bring up so many good points there. I mean, one, again, I think, yeah, you're highlighting on just the... the deep stigma that's associated with these experiences. I mean, I'll admit this. So I have had what I would call probably a full blown manic episode. This was years ago with like some psychotic features. I remember I was going through a very stressful time in my life. And I remember walking into my apartment and I was like, I was so paranoid. I was terrified of taking the elevator. I had this imagery in my head of the elevator crashing. And I remember I walked into my apartment and I was convinced there was some kind of demon or spirit in my apartment. And I remember I was standing at my kitchen table and I was like, I had this conversation in my head. I was terrified, but like the rational part of me was still there. I was like, Susan, if you walk out that door, you're going to validate that fear. And I just saw how my life kind of unfolded after that. Like, okay, so you're going to be standing in the hallway when you're roommate. comes home and she's gonna be like, why are you standing in the hallway? You're gonna say, oh, I think there's a demon in the apartment and you're probably gonna be sent to a psychiatric unit and be loaded up with meds and that is your trajectory. And I guess kind of speaking, Roger, to what you said. maybe because of my psychology background, I had the awareness and the ability to like separate myself from that fear. It wasn't completely immersed in me. And so I was able to kind of stand there, let it wash over me. And then I was like, I mean, I wasn't okay after that. Like there were still other things that happened. But that happened maybe seven or eight years ago. And I'm just now comfortable talking about that. I mean after that happened I'm like okay I'm just never gonna tell anyone that happened to me. Yeah those are thoughts. They were thoughts right? What were thoughts? What was going through your head? Like everybody has thoughts like maybe that was a little on the extreme side but it was it was it accompanied by like screaming and yelling? Like when I was so terrified and it was thoughts but it was um it was the emotion behind it. It was almost like my body was trying to convince me that it was true. So I would say it was more than thoughts because there was so much fear. And you know, let's provide Sean some education because then it could educate some of our listening audience. What is a delusion? A delusion is a belief, right? So I guess it's the, what determines whether it is a delusion is how attached you are to the belief. So whether it's like temporary or if it... Like, hey Sean, I... I believe I can fly, right? Or I believe I am God, right? That's a strong belief if somebody is unable to kind of observe that or rationalize with that or say, you know, listen, I'm having this idea that I'm God, I don't know if I believe it, right? That's the spectrum of this. Other instances of psychosis are around hallucinations, auditory or visual. So seeing things that aren't there, or maybe hearing voices, believing you're hearing voices and they seem outside of you. So there is a spectrum around this. And where Dr. Hannon is kind of describing this experience because of her background, maybe she was able to be a little bit more flexible and understand what was happening, which is interesting as far as from a treatment perspective, because there's this recovery-oriented cognitive therapy for psychosis. I don't know if you're aware of that or any of that research. Actually, a gentleman I went to school with was heading this under the Aaron Beck's clinic. This is Aaron Beck's type of study, recovery-oriented cognitive therapy for psychosis. And it's trying to actually develop those skills. Right. And that's the other interesting point that you said a moment ago, how... Right. There does seem to be some people who have the flexibility who may be coming to our clinic and after a few sessions, they're willing to disclose this stuff, who are able to watch the thoughts without getting attached to them, right? It's, it's a very mindfulness esque practice. So in my mind, I'm like, if one person can do that, I think we all can. I think that's a skill that we can grow. Yeah. Now there's a significant portion of people who develop psychosis. from current or previous drug use. So let me ask you about at that time, was there any drug use that might have contributed to that experience? None, and that's what's so interesting to me. So I'm convinced and I could be completely wrong, but there's some research that has shown that DMT, which don't ask me to, I don't know what the full. name of that is, but that is naturally occurring in our brains and our bodies. I swear I was under so much stress that somehow got released in my brain because I, it was the way that manic, whatever you want to call it, experience started for me was such a radical shift in my perception and how I saw the world. It was like I woke up and I just knew everything was connected. So stress induced. It was stress induced, not drug induced. It felt like I was on drugs now that I've done drugs since then, like psychedelics, but there was no drugs taken at the time, but it felt like a trip, yeah. Okay. Now I'm going to speak from a perspective of someone who has not used drugs. My entire life, I only experimented with cannabis one time. That's it? Yes. Hothead. I'm like loser. Yeah, I am. I was an athlete when I was younger. I was always like concerned about what something could do to my body for the most part. And that's kind of moved into my adult life as well. So I'm always hesitant about introducing something that I don't know what it is, what impact it could have on me. And so. I'm going to come from an experience where I've never had that psychedelic experience or have been really high or any of that nature, but have been able to induce mechanisms within me that are similar and we can have that conversation. Now you're going to come from a perspective today where you have experienced the use of psychedelics for purposes of expanding consciousness or altering your reality for whatever reason motivated you to do that. You know, I think we can start with that question because what it ultimately has to lead us to is a critical eye on this movement, this psychedelic movement that exists in our field. And understanding for me, it's always for who, for what, at what time, under what conditions, for what risk, for what benefit. And those are the questions we have not traditionally been able to really answer in terms of our mental health field. We've developed this diagnostic system that is very inadequate, but we act like it is adequate. And then we create medical interventions for it as if they're scientifically validated. And there's never that plan for whom, for what, under what conditions, for what risks. So that's my concern when we start talking about the psychedelic movement. whether it's psilocybin or ketamine or any other potential even plant-based medicine, for who? Under what conditions? So can you tell us your experience with psychedelics under what conditions, for what purpose? And let's just talk about your experience. Yeah, when and why? Are you high now? You would never know. I am not. No, but real quick. Roger, you bring up a great point that I completely agree. You can have these changes in perspective from taking psychedelics, cannabis, meditation. It could be stress induced like it was initially for me. So it's not the drug. It's not, and we can probably get into this later. It's in my opinion, it's not the psilocybin. It's the mindset shift. It's the perspective shift that happens as a result of that. And it's funny, so when I was in high school, I smoked weed a little bit, in undergrad I did, I experimented with some other drugs, and now looking back in a very impulsive and dangerous way, because it's like you have no idea what you're doing, you're trusting some stranger that they're giving you what they say, and you have no idea. So to me now, I'm like, thank God I'm still here, because that was actually quite terrifying, looking back. But even... Like two or three years ago, if you would have told me that I would be so interested in psychedelics, like mushrooms, I would have laughed at you. I had no interest in it. I would imagine years ago, they probably terrified me because I was someone who very much valued control. And I very much had bought into this illusion of certainty. Like if I do these things, if I live my life in this way. these things will happen to me. And I think as you get older, you realize that is not true. That is not how this works. And I think, and I think I talked about this on a previous podcast, the doing hard things where my dad passed away very suddenly in December of 2021. And I literally watched him die, like watched him take his last breath. And that just... That honestly, looking back was kind of another almost like psychedelic experience, one that was happening and right after. I was in a very different state of mind then. And that just kind of opened me up. It helped, I think, break this illusion of certainty and control. It's like, oh, like these things could happen at any time. Like, what am I doing other than living for right now in this moment? That kind of became my... mindset. And so I was somewhat familiar with psychedelics and the kind of reemergence of the research around them and how they could help like facilitate, this is where language gets kind of complicated, but facilitate just the recognition that it's just here now, like that's it. And is a story, a character that I have been playing my whole life, but that's not really who I am. Who really are you? I mean, that's the question. But if psychedelics don't help you answer that question, then tell me what the value of it is. So it's interesting, right? Because, right, we wanna know what things are. And I am now in a state of mind where I can tell you what I'm not. It's easy for me to tell you what I'm not. I'm not... Susan, I don't even really think I'm this body, which I know might sound crazy. Kind of a cop-out answer that's coming up in my head is consciousness, but I don't really know what that means. It's almost like you can't know who you are. That's what you are. It's like, right, like this thumb doesn't know what it, like this thumb can't touch itself, because that's what it is. It's like, I don't think we could actually know our true nature, because that's what we are. But I can tell you what I'm not. It's like easier to strip away the layers. And then there's something underneath, but I don't know what that something is. Infinite potential, unlimited intelligence. But again, those are just words, I'm trying to describe something that I don't know if it really can be described. Okay. So, all right. So you tried a psychedelic? How long ago? Oh, I mean, I have done it. pretty frequently. Which kind? Psilocybin, so mushrooms. And so for what purpose? What is your goal? Yeah, so initially it was... You know, it's funny, because I've done, if I'm being honest, I have no idea how many times I've done it at this point, because I've done microdosing, which we can talk about that. And then I've done quite a few bigger, what they call heroic doses, which is at least three grams. Where that number comes from, I don't know if that's based off of research or whatnot, but it's interesting. It's like I'll intellectualize. and insight. So for example, the first bigger dose I did was in, was it just this past December? That can't be, but it might've been. Yeah, December, 2022. So not that long ago. And before I did that dose, I... I guess I was conceptualizing or intellectualizing this idea that like everything we experience truly does, it arises and it passes away. Everything in every moment, it arises and it passes away. So a feeling of happiness, it arises and it passes away. A feeling of contempt, resentment, a thought, a sensation. And historically... and this makes sense kind of for who I was, I would stay in that intellectual realm and I wouldn't let myself embody those insights. There was a resistance there because it's easy to talk about this stuff but not walk the path. Walking it is very different than talking about it as I have learned over the past year. And so at that time, mushrooms helped me embody that recognition. So I took a bigger dose. And again, this is where it just gets really difficult with language. It's it's, I would have this sensation arise in me or in this field of consciousness, whatever it is, and then you don't cling to it and it dissipates. But then something new arises and then it dissipates. And that was really my first trip was just almost me sitting in awe. Like I was the watcher of this, whatever it is. And, and just watching these experiences without. attachment and seeing how it truly just this constant state of change. So it came in waves, your experience. You brought up your father and then it just happened to coincide it was like maybe a year after your father passed and you can just answer this with yes or no but was it grief that was driving you to want to increase your awareness of something? Yeah that's an interesting question. Maybe. Because when he When he initially passed, I would say there wasn't a ton of grief. It was more like at the moment of his death, I actually had the thought like, oh, that's not who you are. I remember looking at his body and almost being like confused. And it's interesting because I still will sometimes get in this mindset where I'm like, ah, Susan, that's just your stress response. Like that's just, I still sometimes come from this very like biological scientific mindset, which it's fine. And the grief kind of came later. It's interesting you bring that up because I remember on that first bigger trip I did, I started having thoughts of my dad and I was like, we're not gonna go there yet. And I was somehow able to control that, which you can't always do on mushrooms. So yeah, how could it not, right? That was a part of my lived experience. So how could it not have impacted me? Yeah. Yep. Okay, so, you know, there's some questions here because where my mind goes, and we use this word, I think, before we got on the podcast, mechanisms of action. Like, if this is going to be used in some way to enhance mental health and well-being, especially people who are suffering the most, we have to understand what that mechanism of action, what is going to occur. So you're speaking very Buddhist terms in a lot of ways, right? So you are, some of the things you would at least learn from that experience is there is only a now. everything is temporary. And that is something that is communicated in the Buddhist realm of teaching, right? It's full acceptance. Everything rises and falls. And can we use the word like detachment? Like not attaching in any way to the self or to the pain that exists in this life. Radical acceptance is that idea of really with all our hearts and all our minds facing reality as it is with full acceptance, not believing it should be any different. So if we would think that some mental health problems, whether it's trauma, whether it's depression, is there is any attachment to this self, to this body, to this idea of who we are. And that idea of who we are creates suffering, right? I'm not good enough. I am unlovable. I can't do these things. I am a failure. And that is a deep connection to the body, right? And this small self, we can call it, or an ego. But in order to transcend that, you have to have some deep connection and belief about something. So this is for, you know, those who are religious, those who are Christian, who are listening to our podcast, they're not attached necessarily to this life, right? They are in service of God. They are God's children. And this life comes and it goes, right? So there's not an attachment to survival. There's not attachment to living for someone else's approval because the ultimate approval comes from God or from source or whatever. So that's the approval that they're living for. Right. And that in itself is protective against mental health problems, right? Because there is purpose to suffering, there is purpose to living. Some of the people I've met in my consultation work who are deeply religious or just have strong faith, Their life is only about in service of others. And when you're not thinking about the self, when it is not about the self, then you don't suffer. But you have to be able to transcend this experience of separation, right? Because if one of the core problems of living is the idea of separation, that we are all separate, right? Then if we're all separate, my life is about me. It's about self-preservation. If we are not separate, then I am in service of you. I can feel your pain. I can experience you. I have goals of love. I don't get attached to the neurotic day-to-day details or, oh my God, I don't have enough money or I don't have enough materialism. And it's the focus on those things that creates mental suffering. I think you're saying, and I... Again, this might be controversial, but this is what I think. Identity is the root cause of all psychological suffering. Right? This idea of separation, that I am a separate self that can be depressed, that... That the comparison right that I am less than someone else. I'm not worthy That I think is the root of it all and that's all in the mind, right? The mind would have to create that it's self-created that comparison you are better than me. You're more attractive than me I'm a failure all those things that would learned. Yeah, you'd have to learn it You'd have to engage in it. You'd have to create that reality and some people Have the ability to not create the reality. I want to go back to the your loss, right? When you lose somebody close to you, it is an awakening, it is an awareness that this is time limited. And that can be freedom or that can be fear. There are people in my own life and people I have worked with that the experience of loss of somebody close to you, and sometimes it's not even just death, it could be another type of loss. creates a degree of fear. I don't want to feel that again. I don't want to experience that again. And then they enter into patterns of behavior to control for that experience. Oh, I did that in romantic relationships for 18 years. A lot of people do, right? Like it's the fear of being rejected. It's the fear of being left. And then you withhold love in those scenarios. I don't know how many times that's a conversation in my therapy sessions, the games that are played. to try to protect yourself and it's so self-defeating. But then there's the freedom. The freedom that comes from experiencing loss. It's like, what am I worried about with this neurotic nonsense? I'm going to be dead, right? Momento mori. This life is going to be over. So why am I clinging to that experience? Why am I clinging to the now? It could be over tomorrow. And if we're lying on our deathbed, right, let's say we get to live a full life and we're surrounded by our loved ones and our family, well, what actually matters then? All those little neurotic worries that create fear or a lot of the things that create depression would not even have mattered. And it's possible that some people can only get that type of insight if they transcend the small self. with the use of a psychedelic or maybe another mechanism to be able to transition past that. Yeah, and you mentioned, and I appreciate that a lot of maybe the terminology I'm using is rooted for lack of a better word in Buddhism, I think prior to my psychedelic experiences and especially because being a psychologist and being familiar with treatments such as dialectical behavior therapy, which has roots in Zen Buddhism. That's where a lot of that language comes from. But if you look at really all the religions, Hinduism, even Christianity, they all seem to be pointing at similar things. Yes. And again, we were talking about this, I think, before we started recording. So I was raised Roman Catholic and I was raised in a church where the Bible was taken literally word for word. And I have my own opinions about that. I think the Bible could be a source of symbolism. That was not how it was communicated in my church, but I think when you look at it as stories, when you look at it as symbolism, there actually is even more overlap than we thought between Buddhism and other Eastern forms of religions and philosophy. Yeah, which is a fascinating discussion point because let's accept there is a God, there is source. It is all loving, right? We are all connected. Then that God would not create separate religions, you know. that would start a war, right? I mean, religion has created war. Yes. Like there's not necessarily a right or wrong, there's only messages. What we then create into the physical world and live by can be a human creation. Even when you read the Bible, there are multiple interpretations of it. We are also limited as human beings. We're limited in our ability to grasp things that are God-like, right? And we have to accept that limitation. If somebody is in the 1500s, they might read something and interpret it some way. Yes. And then from the experience of someone in the 2000s would then interpret in another way based on what we've claimed, what we've grown into, what we've experienced. That profound humility of greatness, of something that is so much bigger than us could actually help transcend the human race into becoming more loving. I just was reading certain recent studies about those who identify as atheist. And I think what is the actual definition of an atheist? I want to make sure I get that correct. Believe in no religion, nothing beyond this, right? You want me to read it out loud? Why don't you just Google it so we have like a clear definition of atheism. What do you think it is? atheist for a period of time. And in my mind, it was all just very biological. I turned to dirt. That's it. Yeah, disbelief. No purpose. That's just it's Oxford. So disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Okay, to me, that idea in itself is a predictor of mental health problems. You want to know what's also interesting about just American culture, those who I've identified as atheists, were more willing to take a COVID vaccine, the mRNA vaccine. They're more likely to follow government recommendations or quote unquote medical experts on a recent survey. I'm going to have to get a hold of that. We, as human beings, search out authority. We search out a godlike state. And if there is not a supreme power, or belief system, you are going to follow a human. You are gonna follow a leader. You're gonna follow someone who is charismatic. And if you don't believe you are anything but dirt, right? Then the only experience of pleasure or joy or something that's bigger than you, everything is going to then be limited to the physical pleasure of just this world. You're only gonna care about self-preservation. And so... you are more likely to be experimental. This concept of transhumanism begins to be articulated into modern culture. You're just trying to advance the human race as a body. And to me, those people are dangerous. A nihilistic view of human potential leads you to fall in line. It leads you to live in fear and to... and to only preserve your ego or your body. And that is dangerous to me. Yeah, I think anything where ego is God is very dangerous. And that's where we've been for so long. And I will say that I think is something that psychedelics has helped facilitate for me is the recognition that again, the word God is so loaded. I hate using it, but this is all God. we are God, this is God consciousness, infinite intelligence, whatever you want to call it. That's my recognition now. And again, when I say God, I don't mean this. Like, guy in the sky. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. That's not what I mean. I mean, again, like something that can't be described to this field, this divine field of something where all of this is just being created in every moment. And if you look to quantum physics, And there's actually some other really interesting science. Have you guys heard of Donald Hoffman? I have not. I believe he's trained as a cognitive psychologist, but he right now is working on theoretical models of consciousness. And his work is showing potentially that, so we, a lot of us I think have this idea, this mindset that, we are separate from this, right? Like I'm a body, I'm a separate entity from this, and when I die, this all still exists. And he is showing that, and I think a lot of us, and I really should just be talking for myself now, I believed that consciousness originated from the brain, that our brains have evolved and that consciousness is arising from that. Researchers like Hoffman are saying no, that Consciousness is what's fundamental to this whole experience and we, us, space time is arising within this field of consciousness. And it's such a radical way of looking at it. People are calling crazy. I think that this is like where the future is headed. But psychedelics, I think, has helped embody some of these recognitions for me. Absolutely. is what you called a mechanism for action mechanism for change? Well, no, we have to know what is the mechanism of action from taking psychedelics. So I feel like it's opening a window, I think is what we're saying. It's usually expanding my interpretation, but maybe it's in pursuit of a reason for being to broaden your understanding of things. And there's always, there's always many people that take actions to try and get those answers. It makes me think of people that jump on road trips. You know, they want to go on this journey, they want to experience life to maybe broaden their understanding of what their purpose or what their meaning is. And people go to Spain and they do that Camino de Santiago, they, they go on a hiking trail for four weeks, as a spiritual experience. Is this just another mechanism that allows that experience to happen so that you come out of it, realizing that It's so much bigger than what's in my mind. I think it can be. Yeah. I think at least, and I really can just speak from my own personal experience as someone who's traveled and gone on road trips as well. There does seem to be something different with psychedelics, at least initially where the trip, because well, so when I'm going on a road trip, let's say prior to my use of psychedelics, Susan was still really there and I can appreciate what I'm saying now might sound a little nuts, but With psychedelics, from my experience, if you're willing to let go, the story of Susan drops. And again, this is where it gets really hard to communicate with words, but one bigger trip I had, I was creating this story in my head that I needed to have a heart trip, that I needed to, because I'm sure you've heard people on podcasts talk about some of these trips that they've had, and it sounds- really scary and grueling, and then they kind of see the other side of it. I was creating this narrative in my head that I had to do that. I had to go through something like that. And I was with a group of good friends at the time and my one friend said something like, Susan doesn't have to be like that. Like you can just let go. And in that moment I did. And then what happened next? Again, I never will be able to fully describe with words, but It was like I was just, I was the moment. And when I say I, I'm not even talking about Susan anymore. It was, and like we were on a walk and like each step I took, it was like the world was being created in front of me. And it wasn't bliss. It wasn't like the happiest I've ever felt. It was very intense. And there was so much uncertainty. At the same time though, there was this peace. There was this ease of no matter what happens, it's going to be okay. Because any fear comes from the ego of Susan. And again, so was that like an ego death? Maybe, but I really, I'm careful with using that terminology because you can't have this experience without the ego. I couldn't have this conversation right now without Susan. She's the ticket to my experience, right? I think Alan Watts talks about that. But you, I think through psychedelics and other experiences that I've had, I just don't take Susan seriously anymore. Like as I was driving here, I was noticing some anxious thoughts and I, you know, I was aware of them and I'm like, you're so silly, Susan. Like what's going to happen is going to happen. You're going to be in the moment when it's happening. So it's just baggage that you're leaving behind. That's a beautiful way to say it. Yes, it's like you're for so long. Oh my gosh, for my whole life. It's like I was carrying this heavy, heavy backpack. And I was the one who was putting rocks in the backpack. Like this is all self-created. Like with the kind of relationship stuff like we talked about before. You know, I was trying to control people and these were just heavy rocks I was adding to my backpack. And then over the past year or so I've realized like, I don't need that rock, I don't need that rock. I can take this out. And wow, it feels a lot lighter when I'm taking myself less seriously. This is kind of nice and there's still pain. There's still discomfort. I just don't take it as seriously. The Rom Das book is it Be Here Now? Have you ever read it? I read it. I can't remember the title. It's a horrible name. Or that sounds like I'm terrible with the names too. Or that sounds like an Eckhart Tolle book too. Rom Das Be Here Now? Be Here Now, yes. Yeah. Okay. So I read it. 1971. I read Be Here Now. And that's the concept of what you're. what you're talking about. Like everything you just mentioned was be here now. There is only a now, nothing else exists. If something else that exists, we created it in our mind. But from a spiritual perspective, you're just talking about the soul. You're differentiating the soul from the body. You're the divine self, that is you, that is eternal, from the body of Susan who was the ticket to this experience. You chose, your soul chose for learning to be Susan. But Susan is forever, or no, your divine soul is forever. It's a divine, divine self. So I guess it's not necessarily ego death because to survive, you have, as Susan, it has to exist to be able to love in a manner that is consistent with human pleasure and experience. It has to be connected to that and some of the identity. But you are we've created this identity for ourselves. So Dr. Hannon, the psychologist is an identity, right? A role I play. Yeah, but that's like not you at all. Even who you are on this podcast is not fully you. You have to play that role. And being able to observe that experience is probably part of what needs to happen in order for us to maximize the now. So to know the difference. Because we're going to have to give up that control, everything around the ego or the body in order to fully experience this time. To know the difference. I like that. Right. And again, just speaking from my own experience, I was so stuck in the story of Susan that I couldn't see anything else. And I was a psychologist at the time. You know what I mean? Like I had this knowledge. And so it's just fascinating. Right. right there, there needs to be a willingness to let go of identity, which I can appreciate that that's terrifying. I mean, I've had moments of true terror on trips, psychedelic trips, as well as off of trips, because you think you're this thing your entire life. And then when you when you start letting it like truly letting it go. So there's a difference in just saying, I'm not the story of Susan, and actually letting go. of Susan. Those are two very different things from my experience and psychedelics helped me embody that and let go of Susan. Okay, so we need to transition to some more practical ways of kind of speaking about this and talking about it clinically. Because if you have experienced trauma, it could be the loss of somebody that you love in front of you. It could be violation of your own safety and bodily integrity, a sexual assault, a physical assault, you were prolonged stress, danger, neglect, whatever that might be. Right. When we talk about what ultimately leads to recovery from that, our treatments are often talking about relieving and experience a symptom, right? Like anxiety is a symptom, a thought or an idea or a belief. is a problematic symptom of a disease state. That is only going to get us so far. Maybe it allows somebody to not abuse substances and to be able to reintegrate back in- Like harm reduction. Yeah, maybe reintegrate back into life and improve functioning. But is that the purpose of this all? Like if we're talking about what is the purpose of life, I'm not looking at any of one- emotion or thought as something that needs to either be increased or decreased. And that is the problem with mental health. We think about it in terms of that symptomatology. I want to go to feel better. I want to relieve of this. And I don't want to discount that because someone who's in a lot of emotional pain and suffering doesn't want to feel that way. And if you can't sleep because you're anxious, you don't want to experience it. So I'm not saying that that's not important to an extent. Yeah. But that does not lead to what recovery is because if you're gonna give up control in certain areas of your life, you have to embrace certain experiences. And that includes this idea of who you are. And if that is influenced by the trauma that has happened to you, and you are only now approaching your life to protect from that future trauma, it is impossible to live fully and to recover. So what can happen? What can happen in a psychedelic experience that can lead or assist somebody in recovery to living more fully? That's a really good question. And again, I feel most comfortable just speaking from my own experience. The recognition that no matter what you're experiencing, like you're okay, you're going to be okay. You don't need to feel less fear in order to be okay. You don't need to feel less anxiety in order to be okay. You are perfectly whole and complete right now in this moment. and because of terrible shitty things that have happened to you in the past that has facilitated this mindset that has you convinced that you're not. And I want to be really careful with how I'm saying that because I can appreciate it. Some people might think I'm like blaming someone who's experienced, let's say, trauma that they're creating this. No, this is meant to be really empowering, right? This idea that you can change your reactions to things. Just like we can get stuck in a mindset and stay there, we can change our reactions to things. But no matter what you're experiencing, you are okay. Because again, you're not this limited ego of Susan. You are something far greater, eternal, right Roger? Like you were saying, limitless, that again, I have no idea what that really is and can't comprehend it. So it just, it opens, again, it almost just like, you mentioned, I think, I forget what you said earlier, Roger, but I imagine it's like we go our lives and all this mud and dirt is on this window and psychedelics help start cleaning off the window to see what really is, right? It's like when it's cloudy outside, we think, oh, the sun's not there. It's there. It's just being hidden by clouds. So it's like those clouds are kind of moving away. So I think, yeah, for me, psychedelics has just showed me how powerful I am, how truly powerful we all are. in kind of creating a life that we want to live. But again, it almost sounds a bit contradictory because at the same time psychedelics has showed me like uncertainty, right? Like I had no idea when my dad was gonna die. I have no idea when I'm gonna die. So it also helps, I think with the recognition of just how precious this is. But it's been just such an empowering experience for me where I know I'm gonna feel fear again. I know I'm gonna feel anxiety and all of these things. And when I do, like that's okay. I know it's not gonna last forever and I'm gonna handle that. But this is my concern about the movement because it's not articulated in a way that is going to move somebody from trauma state, traumatized in their body, fear, to resurrection. Use more religious terms. So reclaiming something new, evolving past it to live in peace again. Just that idea is not enough. So if we said that there are multiple religions with similar concepts, right? There's two of them that exist. Forgiveness and love. We'll add compassion in there too. Compassion is a form of love. I am uncertain. I haven't experienced it. I haven't experienced somebody recover from trauma who was not able to reclaim, re-understand the idea of love, the idea of forgiveness and recreation. So I, one of the aspects of Christianity that I... to maybe understand from different perspectives is resurrection. We talk about it as Jesus dying for sin, right? And it seems like that's written in the Bible. But is resurrection something also much greater than that? Is that our own ability to recreate, to die, a part of us to die, and then to be recreated again. And that can only be created in a shift in consciousness. I tell the story, because I know that she would probably want me to tell this story, and I'll just change some of the details. I had a woman who was horrifically traumatized and sex trafficked. And she went into a psychedelic state while disassociating, while being raped, where God, divine source... turned everything around into love, protected her. Not only that, she said she experienced the pain of her rapists, what they went through over the course of their life that led them to act in this way against another human being. And within that was compassion. So there were three components that allowed her to recover. Compassion, also compassion for the self, love and energy that she learned to create into her life and in forgiveness. And one of the hardest and most challenging aspects of therapies and those who have been harmed. is being able to reintegrate that back in their life because they're living in fear. And it's natural. It's natural to be harmed than to self-protect because it is such a horrific experience. But is there a, how do we transcend from one stage in life to be able to love again? Because if you are living in the now, the trauma is not the now, the trauma is in the past. Right. And how do you live back into the now and then be able to have a relationship? or to experience joy or to connect with a human being when a human being harmed you. And that is still the question on a spiritual level that I grapple with. How do I forgive another human being who harms others? And one of the things that drives a lot of the work that we're doing on Radically Genuine power who act unethically or who hurt others or even the bystanders who see it know it, but fear stops them from saying anything or doing anything. And I think we can look historically that the way human beings treat other human beings is we hurt each other, we kill each other. And I have a hard time grappling with doing nothing. And I tend to see those people as less than or or weak and there's an anger that sometimes fuels. On a positive note, love towards others, those who've been victimized, or maybe standing up and screaming from a microphone about what needs to be changed. So that duality, I understand, serves my expression of love, but I have a hard time coming towards forgiveness of the people who harm others. It is definitely something that I have to learn in this life. to be able to forgive others. And if everything is of God, like you said before. And if there is no separation. And there's no separation, how do we get to that state? How do we transcend to that state? Because that would eliminate war. That would eliminate people hurting others. That could create an entire new society, which we eventually we will evolve to, I have no doubt. To me, no doubt we do, but we're living here now, right? And so we have to then, we have to protect ourselves from the evil that exists. And that's where you see more separation. Religion will do that. It will also create a separation. And those deeper questions in the moment when somebody is sitting in front of you who has been deeply harmed by someone else, I do not know yet how to get them from that space to transcend into forgiveness if I haven't been able to do it myself. I mean, yeah, this is fascinating because you said something just a moment ago, how we need to protect people from the evil that's out there. But if there is no separation, then we are the evil that's out there. And I think you're speaking to the recognition of true empathy, truly being able to... have the experience of what it's like to be someone who has harmed someone else. And it sounds like the woman that you spoke to had that experience, that experience of empathy for her rapist. And I know some listeners might be hearing that and think that sounds insane. How on earth, why the fuck would I want to have empathy for someone who has harmed me? And I can so appreciate that. I think, specifically psychedelics, I have not had this experience, but I've talked to people who have had, where they've had just that kind of experience where someone harmed them, and they were literally able to see through their, let's just say perpetrators eyes, how that person got to that place. We live in a culture right now where when someone does something that we can't comprehend, we... demonize them. We put them in a box, we put them in jail, we call them monsters. And look, there are consequences, right? Again, raping someone is self-destructive and there absolutely should be severe consequences for that. I'm not saying that. But that doesn't mean we can't have empathy for the rapist and try and understand how they got to where they got to because If I was born in the same situation with the same parents, with the same life circumstances, I would end up in the same spot as that perpetrator. How could you not? And so I think, right, can we somehow have this balance or this cultural shift where we're still holding people of course accountable. I might have to disagree with you on that, right? Well, and I'm not surprised. by that you disagree based off what you just said a little bit ago, how you struggle with this, right? Well, yeah, so just that idea that if I was on those same circumstances in that situations, I would act in the same way. That's not supported by evidence. We have people who've gone through like horrible, traumatic experiences and they've used that to create love in their life, right? Like that's the beautiful thing about human capabilities. We have free will. We are not determined, our life is not determined by the experiences we have. Our free will is in our response to that. So we see people who have not grown up in adverse conditions or traumatic experiences and then go on to harm others. And then we see people who have been horribly abused turn out to be these like amazing human beings who make change, right? So I can't, I can get to empathy, right? Because what I heard driving in here today from the book, I was telling you, I was listening, the one message was that if you believe that someone is evil and needs to be separated from society for the rest of their lives, then you are denying God. And that was like tough for me to like grasp. and because if everyone is of God and we are fully connected, then each human, each person can heal, has the same capacity. And that we've claimed it, or we've claimed the ideas into our existence and therefore on this plane that we live, that's only what we understand. Because of time, I want to get to frequency and energy and vibration. I mean, you're talking about it. Everything is energy and frequency. If that negative energy and the negative frequency is what's holding you back, it's the same as baggage. When you go on your trip, you're leaving that behind, right? You're that baggage is your negative energy and frequency. It's your, you're taking that backpack off and you're just letting go. So forgiveness is letting go of that negative energy and frequency and moving forward in a positive way. And is it the psychedelic, the the mechanism that allows that to happen. You started off by saying the problem with the movement is you don't know how it gets people to that resurrection, I think is the word you used. So it could, it could, it could with the right guidance. So I mean, this is my problem with the mental health industry is there's so much fragmentation. And we started off saying by for who for what for when, for somebody who doesn't work. As a psychologist or a psychiatrist, if I was experiencing a mental health crisis and I went out to seek out what was the best solution for me, there's, there's like, there's too many options in terms of like, what's going to get me towards that resurrection. And now this is just another one. How important is it for the person who's guiding you that's part of that experience with you to make sure that you don't have a bad trip or you're not reliving those experiences in a negative way. and doesn't give you the ability to resurrect. There needs to be some type of guide that is going to make sure that you stay focused on the positive. And it seems like you had some people in your life that were with you on your psychedelic journey to say, no, it doesn't have to be that. It can just be this experience where you'll get something out of it. Yeah, this is an interesting question. And this is something that I've been kind of grappling with recently. I've had trips with a group of people that I trust immensely, and I've also had trips alone. And I've had Um, at the time, what I would label as a bad trip, it was scary. I felt like I was dying a couple of times, but then turned out to be extremely insightful. So good and bad are just labels, right? It's how you respond. It's how you react to something. And I think even from challenging, difficult, let's just say psychedelic experiences, just like life experiences. Your. reaction to it or your conceptualization of it determines how you feel about it. Right. I learned so much from some of those challenging trips because I chose to, I chose to see it in that way. But you need somebody to help you. Susan, you have an understanding of psychology where you're able to apply your learning and your understanding and then and move forward from something. But if there's just an individual, who jumps into a psychedelic experience because they've had a traumatic experience and they don't have somebody guiding them to understand what that experience is and what they can take from it, there could be no resurrection that comes from it. Well, and this is what I'm so curious with the trials that are out now for psilocybin assisted therapy. I really wanna dive into the protocols to see what that quote guidance looks like, right? Because my concern, I think we were talking about this earlier is that you can kind of guide someone to just create a new ego almost. And again, the ego is always here, right? It's not separate, nothing is separate. But for me at least, the awakening, for lack of a better word, resurrection, whatever, with the psychedelics have been the recognition that the ego is this experience, that voice in my head, that's not who I am, that's through conditioning and learning. And so, right, my fear is that if that's not the guidance after these psilocybin-assisted therapies, then I don't really know what we're doing. And I'm concerned with some of the news headlines that are out now. I think, Roger, I was joking with you about this earlier, how I saw a headline like, oh, psilocybin-assisted therapy reduced major depression in patients for up to a year. And I saw that and I kind of cringed. I'm like, oh, we're missing the whole. point like a better headline might be psilocybin assisted therapy helps you recognize that there really is no you to be depressed. That's tripping itself. I know and we don't want to go I don't know if we're ready to go there is a culture. We're definitely not and I also want to speak to the harms of psychedelics. Okay. We are talking about it as this great spiritual connection that can open up doorways expand consciousness and transcend our time in this physical body. But I've done valuations where somebody attempted suicide after psilocybin because in that trip, all they did was review their life and the harms that they created to other people. They got stuck there. Now, in near death experiences, people have talked about life reviews after they've died. But that's experienced differently. That facilitates a growth and a change of empathy and compassion and forgiveness in a way that you otherwise could never experience in the limitations of this space. So when he experienced that, he attempted suicide. You know, that's all he focused on. And he felt like a burden to others. experience with getting bit by a dog. Mm hmm. A thousand. Well, one dog. One dog. Had a traumatic experience. Wait, this actually happened? Yeah. Okay. I just wanted to make sure. This is one of our recent podcasts with Dr. Craig Heacock who's a psychiatrist for Collins, Colorado and he runs a ketamine clinic. And he got bit by his dog. And then he was experiencing post trauma reactions, acute stress kind of reactions. And he did ketamine. And he in the ketamine trip, he got bit by a thousand Dobermans. German shepherds. German shepherds. And by the time it was over, all those post-traumatic symptoms have gone away. But I'll go back to what Susan was saying is he was intelligent enough to understand that the experience was exposure therapy. That's how he conceptualized it. Yeah, during the experience, but a normal person would say, Oh, I'm an exposure therapy and we'll show you what you're afraid of. Yeah. I don't want to do that ever though. Get attacked by a thousand clowns. And this is where I don't know the name of the article, but they, I think they showed the number one predictor of a successful psilocybin trip. They asked people ahead of time. How willing are you to let go? and those people who said yes had the most successful trip. That's the other thing is you need to approach it with a goal in mind. Set and setting. Yeah. So there's also research on these, the ideas of set and setting. So set is mindset, your mindset going into the trip as well as your environment, your setting. I don't know how people party on mushrooms, how they're around a bunch of drunk people in these, like that to me sounds like my version of hell. So yes, I think if you're in a really... I don't know though. Again, it goes back to if you're willing to let go. Because I think even if you're in a really difficult mindset, if you let go during the trip that like it's this idea of letting go of control and I can't explain what happens, but just something happens after that just opens you up. But yeah, there is research that's new research that's looking at predictors who is more or less likely to have a quote successful trip and people who have these mystical experiences report more benefit on. Yeah, from psilocybin and psychedelics. Okay. Let's summarize. Let's pull some things together. Did you want to go into energy and frequency? Oh, I did. Yeah, thanks. Okay, and this was another experience of a patient client who did a mushroom psilocybin. Was able to see the vibration of everything. So everything is matter, that's frequency and it's energy. And that's revelation for somebody who, you know, doesn't think like us, or maybe you and I. Sorry, Sean. Like, Sean's not going to read philosophy for fun. No, I read good night, good night construction site. No, like, here's the difference between Sean. Like, if Sean has, like, some free time, he might, like, watch CNBC business and like track like companies and like their financial. Right. And like, like there's a game he's trying to play to win around like making that money and feeling safe. And I would see that as like the most colossal waste of time that anyone can experience on this earth at all. And I'll laugh at it. Right. It's so funny, because Sean's a finance guy here. So it's right. Like, kind of like we need you for that. Yeah. I mean, there's a degree of that. Yes. Yeah. Or like sometimes I'll just say, it's gonna work out. Don't stress. It's gonna you know, and it and it does. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that it does. Because I'm pulling the levers behind the scene that doesn't know there was no, there's no lever that happened. Anything that happened in the things we're talking about was not done by you and it was not a puppet master. So anyway, this idea that things are that are frequency and energy we haven't even tapped into. If we are all connected, there is there's good evidence that this energy is experienced by people that are close to each other, right? Like you have an energy, you have a vibe, you have a vibe, and we experience that vibe. We can talk about it in terms of other words, intuition, clairvoyance, like we have this capacity to experience each other, and we do. We just haven't claimed it as a culture yet. We haven't claimed it collectively. to know that when I come into contact with you and I feel something and I experience it, that is about an energy that is experienced about the other person that they're in. And it's been my, and this is without psychedelics, this is with being able to expand consciousness through meditation and actual intellectual learning too. Once you, if you are able to change your frequency, for example. right, which means you're shifting your consciousness. That means you are changing the world in which you are living in. Like we live in different worlds, right? Everything that you live in is different than me. What you live in is different. And that's what makes it so difficult to sometimes understand each other because then you'll interpret my behavior through only the frequency that you're in. So the vibing that can occur between people is when there is like a connected level of synchronicity in that type of energy field that exists. And We might experience it through emotion, but we can also experience it through like something's off that doesn't feel right, right? And I have always been absolutely amazed by the sensitivity of some of my clients. And I think that's a problem with our current mental health field is that those who are most sensitive and connected to the energy fields around them are pathologized because that's viewed of what they experience as a symptom, their gas lit, their superpowers essentially and who they were born that might allow them to create great art or in the optimal experience might allow them to love fully are pathologized around stupid labels. And some of those labels are so ignorant and limited, I want to bang my head against the wall, right? Oh, well, you're that's borderline personality disorder, or that is this or okay, I can give you this so you don't have to feel that. That idea and that level of ignorance and inability to see beyond what is the most simple is what makes me so angry because people are harmed. So when I say like somebody might come into the session with this sensitivity to even my frequency, they can feel my moods. And I have to become so conscious. with some of my clients to reconnect to the now and to move away from whatever that conscious experience was at another frequency, generally in stress or fear. So I know we have the ability to do it. It can only be done in the now. That's why mindfulness and meditation is so important. But we feel it from everyone else. We just don't understand it. We misinterpret it and we use it in a manner that probably creates more harm. and benefit. It's so fascinating, right? So what you said how we literally all have our own different realities. All I know is my perception and I'm having what I think is a coherent conversation right now but even what you just said, I interpreted it through my own perception. I'll never actually know what you meant by that. I only know it through my own senses, through my own perception and that's wild to think about. But if we... So it's almost like... If you don't fit into the quote mainstream perception, reality, whatever it is, then you are pathologized. But if you look at the mainstream mindset, that's also insane. So many people are stuck in their head most of the day, worried about a future that literally doesn't exist. All there is right now. That's all we've ever known, that's all there is. But yet, because... so many people live in that future oriented mindset, we're like, that's normal, that's just how it is. But that is, if you look at the definition of psychosis, it's like, that's not reality either, we've just accepted that to be true. And that's what's scary about our mental health diagnostic system is like, anything that deviates from normal is pathological, but who the fuck would wanna be normal now, right? Culturally normal. Culturally normal, right? You can go to another culture and then you, you know, you've lost your mental illness diagnosis. So if I go Susan to a psychiatrist or medical professional, I say, hey doc, guess what? I believe I am of God. I believe I also have the power to transcend this level of consciousness. I believe the body can heal itself. I believe people can ultimately heal each other through love. How are they going to label me? I mean, if you went to me, right? I'd be like, oh, you're my kind of people. But I understand you're not saying if you went to me, right? Oh, you'd be given some kind of psychotic disorder. I believe they might ask questions, have you ever felt down before? They try to like conceptualize it in only the way they know it. Or I'm gonna make him bipolar. Because that's all they can do. I'm gonna make him bipolar. And well, yeah, I've certainly been, you've gone through a two week period of down, feeling down. And do you feel good when you believe you're of God and you believe that people can heal themselves and love is an energy? Well, yeah, sure. Well, that's hypomania. And let's just, here, let me give you an anti-psychotic, we'll call it, or anti-convulsant, and we'll say it's a mood stabler because your problem is your mood. And most people don't understand that that's just some strange creation by some people. That- A small group of people. Very, very small group of people that we have all- claimed as truth. Well, I don't buy your truth. That is not my truth. And I think your truth harms people. And so that's the field we live in, right? That's, that's the field we work in. That's the idea we're training those, those trainees, those doctor level residents and externs are being taught that model. So they are now claiming it as their truth. They are now limited. They are now limited in what they see and what they can do. And that, Sean, is 98, 99% of every mental health professional that exists. Someone says something like, I just said, they're going to refer me to a psychiatrist because they're concerned about my reality. But I'm concerned about your reality. Your reality limits you. your reality is going to create much more suffering. It might create anger, it might create hate. You will claim into everything at this level of frequency. And that in itself is not health, but you might be normal, right, because it's just normal to be scared. It's normal to divide. It's normal to fight. It's normal to get a divorce. It's normal to create an in-group and an out-group. It's normal to use street drugs. It's normal to take a pharmaceutical. It's normal to die of cancer. It's normal to have a heart attack. It's normal to trust your doctor. It's normal to get a vaccine. It's normal to follow the authority. It's normal to be a truck. to be in a tribe. It's normal to say I'm a Democrat, I'm a Republican, I'm a Buddhist, I'm a Christian. I'm going to give myself a label, this is all what is normal. And guess what? I'm going to hurt you and I'm going to be miserable and I'm going to get depressed and I'm gonna look for a drug as the solution. This is what is normal. I'm going to get fat and unhealthy and I'm going to sit in front of Netflix. All of this has become the normal. Are we expected to be normal? Like that's what you want to be? Yeah, division is normal. And I think that is something psychedelics has shown me is that again, there is no division and this is just a recognition that has continued to deepen for me, but there really is no separation. It's all one thing, whatever that thing is. I like the imagery of imagine one big brain. And everything, we'll just say every human for now, even though this would entail everything, every human is like a different eyeball on that big brain. And so we all are like localizations, separate localizations on all one thing. And we're all seeing this, whatever it is, from a slightly different perspective. And there is no good or bad, right or wrong perspective. Again, some are a lot more self-destructive than others, but it's all just a way of knowing this, whatever it is. She's high right now, Roger. This whole conversation. She's not gonna remember. No, actually, if you think about nature, some of that exists, like forests and mushrooms and moss. They're all one connected and they talk to one another. They found out that trees communicate to one another through the root system. So why not, right? If it exists in nature, why wouldn't it exist for us as a species? Yeah, and some philosophies will say this is almost like a game, right? The human experience where It's like hide and seek from yourself, from your true nature. And if you, if you don't take yourself too seriously, it actually can be a lot of fun. Like there are still moments where I fall asleep and I get very attached to the story of Susan and it is fun realizing like, Oh, nope, that's not it. All right, let's wrap this one up. You know, takeaways for this, for me, is I'm open-minded about the possibilities that can exist. There are people who are different than me. Just because I'm very conscious about what I put into my body and the negative effects doesn't mean that other people don't see that as part of their openness or possibility. And when you talk about things like plant-based medicines or other things, maybe they're put on this earth for a reason. but it is in the way that we conceptualize psychedelics. It is not like taking an SSRI. It is not designed to treat the symptom. It could be where it opens up a new opportunity to think about things differently, live differently in a way that can get you to detach from your own suffering and improve the quality of your life by engaging in life in a completely new way. I personally believe you can achieve that without a psychedelic, but maybe not everyone can. And maybe I need to experiment with this to give up some of the things that are holding me back. When I work with trauma clients, or when I think about the doctors who are acting unethically and just following rules, I get angry. You know, I have... My experience is sometimes even to get into my own mind about to try to eliminate them. Maybe not like eliminate them through murder, but eliminate any power they can have in order to like harm another person. And that's a stuck point for me, right? That's, that's a limitation for me. And there's an energy that's created when I'm in that head space. And so maybe doing the trip allows to cultivate compassion in that area. And then. propels us forward to actually positive change in the name of something much more positive or loving. But I think when we close it off today that this is a lesson of opportunity and expansion of consciousness. Psychedelics may be able to help in that process when it's well researched, when it's safe, and when it's done in a condition that is going to facilitate that growth. But we can also then accept that it could be potentially harmful. if it's provided in situations that does not promote that kind of experience. Fair? Yeah, that sounds fair. I mean, coming full circle, at the beginning of this episode, you said something how the value and having different people on the podcast and some have a more philosophical perspective. Some are more rooted in science. Some there's a kind of synergy between the two. And I think that's just what we're speaking to is psychedelics. It's another perspective, right? It's another way of seeing the world. And I think the more that we can broaden our perspective, the more empathy that we can have. Dr. Hannon, thanks for another radically genuine conversation. Thanks for having me.