Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 111: Stephen McGhee - The Power of Pause: Redefining Leadership in a Fast-Paced World

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111: Stephen McGhee - The Power of Pause: Redefining Leadership in a Fast-Paced World · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

0:01
Meredith Oke: Stephen McGee, welcome to the QVC podcast. I'm
0:05
really excited for this conversation.
0:08
Stephen McGhee: Me too, Meredith. We've had a few touch ins
0:11
before, so it's really cool to be here with you.
0:16
Meredith Oke: Thank you. And a little thank you to our mutual
0:21
godfather, Peter Bort. He's always sweet,
0:26
sprinkling lovely people into my life. Thanks,
0:28
Peter. All right, so let's start with your story
0:35
and how you came to be where you are, which is as
0:39
a leadership coach and a coach to highly
0:43
successful people. You've led people up mountains
0:46
and down rapids and spoken on stages, but you
0:50
started out in a much more traditional role in
0:53
life in a corporate environment. How did you get.
0:57
How did that journey unfold to where you are now?
1:00
Stephen McGhee: Well, we'll do this short version, Meredith. If
1:04
you want to dive deeper into any of the specifics
1:08
of it, we can do that. But like a lot of us
1:11
listening, I grew up with meager beginnings. My
1:17
mother reared four kids on her own, and she, you
1:23
know, was going out trying to make a living. So
1:26
sometimes she was waiting tables at night. You
1:29
know, we were living off of whatever tips she had
1:32
as a cocktail waitress, etc. So we didn't have
1:35
much. So there was, you know, to begin with, the.
1:39
Just the mindset I had had some limitations in
1:41
it. Like, I don't know how anyone ever could do
1:44
this or that or this or that based on the mindset
1:47
I had, because there was just a lot of things we
1:49
couldn't afford due to the limited resources. So
1:53
I mentioned that to you because it put into my
1:56
heart and mind that, oh, I just think money would
2:00
solve all my problems as a young man. So I
2:03
started to. I made it through school. That's a
2:06
longer story. I did get a degree in business
2:09
administration in finance. And somehow, some way,
2:13
I think, because I interviewed. Well, fast
2:16
forward through college to my first job in the
2:22
financial services and banking industry. And I
2:27
spent many years climbing the corporate ladder.
2:32
And at some point, maybe I'm four to five years
2:36
in this corporate climbing of the ladder, I get
2:39
asked to be on what we call the succession plan
2:43
at a large financial services organization
2:46
underneath Nations Bank. And so I was learning a
2:51
lot about leadership, but I was also learning a
2:54
lot about how people operated in the boardroom,
2:57
how people meaning how the operations went, how
3:00
the conversations went, how the communications
3:03
went. And there was so much of it that I didn't
3:06
like. Like, it felt like we were out of integrity
3:10
and that we were doing things to just get the
3:12
deal. In the midst of all that, Meredith, I Was
3:18
doing a lot of entertaining to get the deal
3:20
because money costs are all the same. For those
3:23
of you that understand a little bit about
3:25
financial services, investment banking industry,
3:30
you know, the money cost is the same. So how do
3:32
you really get a deal? You get a deal because
3:34
you're really good at business development or
3:37
getting clients through entertainment. So I did a
3:39
lot of traveling. I was really good at the game
3:45
of politics in corporate America. I ate out
3:49
almost every night. There was a lot of alcohol
3:52
involved and a high degree of stress. I remember
3:56
one night in particular, Meredith, where I was
3:59
trying to go to sleep at night and my body was
4:03
just pouring sweat from the stress, like I was
4:06
soaking my sheep. I would wake up like at 2am and
4:10
I couldn't go back to sleep and my body was
4:13
inflamed and I was way out of touch with nature,
4:17
which I know we're going to talk about later. I
4:19
was. My circadian rhythm was way out of whack. My
4:23
body was way out of whack. So long story short, I
4:28
end up sick with a blood clot in my left arm and
4:33
it was about 9 to 10 inches long. And I was so
4:36
afraid of what was happening with the swelling
4:38
and it was blue and all of that that I just
4:42
avoided it, I ignored it until one night we were
4:46
sitting at dinner with my family and my sister in
4:49
law said, you, you really should get that
4:51
checked. And so it scared me enough that night
4:55
that I went straight to the emergency room at
4:58
Swedish Medical center in Denver, Colorado. And
5:01
within a few minutes they've determined that I've
5:04
got this blood clot. And I don't know, Meredith,
5:07
how much you know about blood clots, but they're
5:10
painful, but they can be very dangerous because
5:14
it breaks off and it can travel to a major organ
5:18
and they can kill you. So I ended up in intensive
5:23
care and I was in intensive care for eight days,
5:28
which is like a lot of things in life. It was
5:31
horrific and a blessing all in the same breath.
5:37
One of the blessings was I survived, you know,
5:40
that I actually lived through it. Eight days in
5:43
intensive care means, you know, we're really.
5:46
Meredith Oke: Yeah, especially when you just walked in after
5:48
dinner.
5:49
Stephen McGhee: Especially.
5:51
Meredith Oke: Hey, thought I'd get this checked out. Eight days
5:54
in intensive care later. Wow, that's good you
5:58
went in.
5:59
Stephen McGhee: It's really good. I went in for many reasons. But
6:03
the real linchpin for me wasn't about me. It was
6:07
about a man who had come in from a motorcycle
6:11
accident. He was in intensive care in a bed next
6:14
to me. And if you've ever been in intensive care,
6:17
in most hospitals, you're separated not by a
6:20
room, but by a. By a curtain. So I'm again awake
6:24
in the middle of the night, and I can hear this
6:27
man who I don't know, but I can hear his pain. I
6:31
can hear his suffering. But most impactful was I
6:35
heard his breathing start to slow down. And
6:39
eventually he took his last breath. And I heard
6:44
it. I heard the sigh. It's almost as if I could
6:47
feel his spirit leaving his body. And it was. You
6:53
know, eventually, you know, everyone comes
6:56
running in, and they try to resuscitate, but they
6:58
don't. The man passes. And in that moment,
7:02
Meredith, I made a decision. So many decisions
7:08
about my life. And the rest of the story
7:11
continues from there. But in that moment, I was
7:13
like, I am not freaking doing what I've been
7:16
doing. I am not wasting one precious moment of
7:20
this beautiful thing called life doing anything
7:25
that I don't really believe in or that I really.
7:28
That I don't really want to be doing. So I don't
7:31
believe in obligation. I believe in commitments.
7:34
And that's the short version, Meredith. I don't
7:36
want it to be just talking straight through our
7:38
time, because I know you have a lot of questions
7:41
and a lot to insert into this, but that's the
7:44
basic start of my work, of my moving into the
7:51
world of leadership advisement, which I've been
7:53
doing now for 30 years.
7:56
Meredith Oke: Wow. It's interesting to me because, you know, a
8:02
lot of people could have that experience but not
8:06
have that outcome. Do you feel that you were
8:11
primed for that in some way or working toward it?
8:17
Stephen McGhee: I.
8:17
Meredith Oke: And then when the moment arrived, it was, like,
8:21
open.
8:22
Stephen McGhee: I mean, I knew I couldn't. And maybe your
8:24
listeners can appreciate this. When we are on a
8:28
path. When I am on a path that I know I can't
8:33
sustain, I know that there's something I want or
8:37
must change. But sometimes I wait until I get
8:41
thrown down the stairs to get the message.
8:45
Meredith Oke: Can you hear me? I can relate.
8:48
Stephen McGhee: Everyone out there ought to be raising their hand
8:51
right now.
8:51
Meredith Oke: Hands up.
8:54
Stephen McGhee: Hopefully we get wise. Hopefully we get some
8:57
wisdom along the way to go. No. These are signs
9:00
that I'm off track. I'm off journey. I'm off
9:02
path. My soul isn't happy. Physically,
9:05
emotionally, mentally. I'm out of whack, and I
9:09
want to do something about that. So, no, at that
9:12
time in my life, I wouldn't have. That was like
9:16
being. That was like being thrown down 20
9:18
staircases in eight days. And it woke me up. It
9:22
had me be aware of what I was doing.
9:26
Meredith Oke: Wow. And when you work with people, because I
9:31
think there's also this idea that sometimes in
9:35
order to wake up, we have to make all of these
9:38
drastic changes in our lives. I know you work now
9:43
as a coach to people who work, you know, in the
9:45
corporate world or in the. In the financial
9:49
world, and they like. It kind of works for them.
9:53
And I just want to talk about the idea of being
9:57
attuned to what does or doesn't work for you, for
10:00
you. Like you were saying you could tell that the
10:03
life you were living was not aligned, it was not
10:08
working. How do you open it up for people to
10:13
understand if there's some periphery changes that
10:17
need to be made or if they're truly on the wrong
10:20
path? Because I guess what I'm getting at is I
10:23
think sometimes we have this idea like, oh, if I
10:26
want to grow spiritually, I can't be in the
10:29
corporate world or I can't have this type of job.
10:32
And I'm not sure that that's true, but it is true
10:36
that it has to be working for you. What are your
10:39
thoughts?
10:40
Stephen McGhee: Well, it's such a beautiful, beautiful question.
10:44
And the last thing I would want to convey today
10:47
is that the corporate world is wrong for
10:50
everyone. There are some company cultures that
10:54
are flat out toxic. And in those toxic cultures,
10:59
you know, people have to make their individual,
11:01
unique choices about how they navigate all of
11:04
that. There are some people that were. That
11:07
really thrive in the job I was doing. You know,
11:11
they really would throw. I wasn't built for it.
11:13
So I think the key is know thyself. Like, you
11:20
really want to know who you are, and you. You
11:22
really want to pay attention to the signs and the
11:26
symptoms. I think sometimes, and with my clients,
11:30
they might have an overwhelm or they might, you
11:33
know, be feeling like they're eating out too much
11:35
or they're away from their family too much or
11:38
whatever the case might be. Those can be small,
11:42
incremental and nuanced adjustments where a
11:45
person has to be able to set clear boundaries
11:48
with the culture, with their direct reports, with
11:53
the chairman of the board or whatever it is. And
11:57
that's where I come in and really support people
11:59
in saying, speak your truth in leadership. That's
12:05
everything. Because integrity in leadership is so
12:08
highly important to being effective that if a
12:12
person is lying to themselves, they're probably
12:14
lying to other people. So this is where these. It
12:19
can be. To answer your question more
12:20
specifically, it might be small Adjustments that
12:24
support a person in thriving in an environment
12:28
because they set some clear boundaries about. I'm
12:31
not going to every. Entertaining dinner every
12:33
night and drinking four drinks. You know, I'm
12:35
just not. That's not for me at this time in my
12:38
life. And I'm setting clear boundaries.
12:42
Meredith Oke: Yeah, yeah, that really makes sense. And I think,
12:46
yeah, absolutely. Because I think sometimes we
12:49
get the idea and then it's like, okay, well I'm,
12:52
you know, especially let's say if you're a
12:54
practitioner or you think, okay, well, I have to
12:57
own my own business. But again, not everyone is
12:59
built to own a business. Sometimes, you know, I
13:04
think it's fine to be an employee or to work, to
13:06
work for someone else. And it's like being able
13:11
to. Yeah. Suss out what is going to work for me
13:14
versus what I think I'm supposed to be doing
13:18
based on what I've somehow been influenced to
13:21
think.
13:22
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, I think people can find fulfillment in a
13:25
lot of different ways. I think a person just has
13:28
to be aligned with themselves in such a way that
13:30
they're living into some form of their truth so
13:34
that they're not wearing themselves out day in
13:37
and day out, because that's just not sustainable.
13:41
And it's not result oriented either. I mean, you
13:44
can argue that it doesn't feel good, but the
13:47
greater argument is when people don't have
13:50
discretionary energy, creative generative energy
13:53
in their world, they typically don't feel that
13:56
fulfilled. So a lot of this is, as I said
13:59
earlier, it's sustained, nuanced changes where a
14:04
person let's, let's look at one specific example.
14:07
Like people have. I've been in organizations
14:10
where there's three minute response time. It's
14:13
not a mandate, but it's like three minute
14:16
response time on email is what's common. So
14:20
instead of working on your project, you're
14:22
working on responding to an email because you're
14:25
in the thread, but it isn't productive. So those
14:28
are changes that can be made extrinsically that
14:32
help a person to be more settled intrinsically.
14:36
Meredith Oke: Right. I love what you just said. Discretionary
14:41
energy. That is a good phrase. Say more about
14:44
that. Because so many of us come into like the
14:48
health and healing space due to energy deficits.
14:53
And I know for myself I, I spend my energy like,
14:58
like a credit card in overdraft. So I'm really
15:04
interested. I'm interested. I love this idea of
15:10
discretionary energy. Say more about that.
15:13
Stephen McGhee: Well, I mean, it's. Imagine it's an overflow.
15:16
Like you're filled up. You know, on a quantum
15:19
biology level, you know, your, your, your cells
15:22
are charged, right. And you've got some room when
15:27
that happens, to live fully and to stay well,
15:31
like, immunity's up, cognitive functions up, all
15:34
those kinds of things are jamming. So
15:37
discretionary energy, when I speak about it in
15:40
leadership, it's like your workforce is doing
15:46
what they need to do, but even more because they
15:48
want to. And this is when we are fully alive.
15:51
It's like when you can. When you can be in the
15:53
presence of someone that's that filled up, it's
15:56
like a joyful encounter because they're not
15:59
holding back. And unfortunately, in a lot of
16:03
organizations, people are just doing as little as
16:06
they possibly can to get by because they're just
16:09
trying to get to the weekend. You know, they
16:12
start on Monday and they talk about the weekend,
16:14
and then they get to Wednesday and they're
16:16
talking about what they're going to do the next
16:18
weekend instead of really feeling fulfilled and
16:22
generating through creativity in their work,
16:25
whatever the work is. And it doesn't need to be
16:28
fancy work. It can be any kind of thing where a
16:31
person's like, I'm going to give this my all
16:33
today, because they can, because they want to.
16:38
They're willing to, but they also. They know that
16:40
they can.
16:41
Meredith Oke: Right? Yeah. And I think this is one of the
16:45
reasons that I was really excited to do this
16:48
interview, because we can get all of our inputs
16:53
correct, so to speak, and optimize our circadian
16:56
rhythms and eat well and do our outdoor time and
17:01
go for walks. But if the way that we've
17:04
structured our life is taking our energy or not
17:09
in alignment with who we are, we're still. Still
17:14
fighting the flow in some, so to speak. Like, I
17:20
don't know, maybe you can. Maybe you can hear
17:23
what I'm trying to ask better than I can ask it,
17:24
but it's like there are pieces beyond, you know,
17:28
beyond just setting everything up to be healthy.
17:33
There are pieces in terms of how we make
17:36
decisions, how we live our lives, like what you
17:38
were just saying, that are still going to put us
17:41
in that energy deficit, are still going to work
17:44
against our intrinsic ability to be healthy if we
17:52
don't understand how to look at those things as
17:54
well.
17:55
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. So I've listened to your podcast a number
17:58
of times. I love the ones I've listened to your
18:02
guests really resonate with me. I'm learning so
18:05
much from you, Meredith, and from your guests.
18:07
But one thing I think we all agree on and how I
18:11
say it is what's normal isn't normal. So we think
18:14
it's normal to wake up tired. We think it's
18:19
normal to barely get through the day. We think
18:22
it's normal for these maladies. And I don't need
18:25
to list them because you've got plenty of guests
18:27
that can list more of them than I could. But, you
18:30
know, just obesity, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune
18:36
problems are not normal at the level that we're
18:41
seeing them. And you've had lots of podcasts
18:43
where people state the stats, you know, on that
18:45
stuff. So I go, first thing we got to do is wake
18:48
up and go, what I'm experiencing as exhaustion
18:53
isn't normal. And that my body can realign with
18:58
the proper principles and protocols of quantum
19:00
biology. And it's so powerful. And I would say,
19:04
Meredith, nobody's exempt from that. So if
19:08
there's someone out there going, yeah, but you
19:09
don't know how hard I've tried, and you don't
19:12
know how sick I really am. I would say believing
19:15
is seeing. And we live in a world that makes that
19:20
really hard because we live in a world that is
19:23
seeing is believing. So if seeing is believing,
19:26
you look, you watch the commercials and you start
19:28
to believe that, what, a pill from a
19:31
pharmaceutical company with 15 really bad side
19:35
effects is better to take because you've got
19:39
eczema or something like that. And so these
19:44
things are not normal. And I think it's time for
19:46
all of us as leaders to stand up and say,
19:49
bullshit, this is not normal. We do not need to
19:54
live this way as a collective. And we can come
19:57
together in alignment and support a movement, if
20:02
you will, for well being. And I feel just very
20:05
strongly about that as a leadership advisor,
20:08
because people with big visions cannot accomplish
20:12
those great visions without that discretionary
20:15
energy. It's just not going to happen. It's not
20:17
possible. They have all the best willpowers.
20:21
Overrated. Can you hear that when I say that? How
20:27
do you hear that, Meredith? Willpower's
20:28
overrated. The whole world's about willpower.
20:31
Force it, make it happen, go on YouTube. But that
20:34
kind of motivational stuff is just not right, at
20:38
least in my heart, because at some point I did
20:42
willpower before I ended up in intensive care.
20:49
Meredith Oke: That's where willpower, all willpower all the
20:51
time got you.
20:53
Stephen McGhee: Eventually it will get most of us in a bad
20:55
situation.
20:56
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
20:57
Stephen McGhee: Even if it's a bad relationship, right?
21:01
Meredith Oke: Yeah. No, I'm right there with you on the
21:03
willpower, because it's, it's finite. It's a
21:07
Finite resource, I found. So if it's the only
21:11
thing I have, it's. If it's the only tool I have
21:15
to do what I'm supposed to be doing or to do
21:17
what's good for me or best for me, sooner or
21:21
later it's going to fail. Like I need more tools
21:26
in the toolkit. And especially because we were
21:32
saying earlier about getting thrown down the
21:34
stairs, right. It's like sometimes I, you know,
21:37
I'm motivated by pain. The pain goes away, my
21:41
motivation goes away, you know, and that, that
21:44
willpower to get out of the pain is not enough to
21:47
create a sustainable life where I don't keep
21:51
ending up in that pain, whether it's emotional
21:53
pain through a relationship or physical pain,
21:56
because I, you know, I'm not doing the things
22:00
that I need to do to keep my body healthy. There
22:02
has to be some other. Yeah, some other blueprint,
22:06
some other driving force besides the willpower.
22:13
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. So then, so then the effective question
22:16
becomes what is that driving force? Force.
22:20
Meredith Oke: What is it? What is it, Stephen?
22:24
Stephen McGhee: Well, I think the most important attribute to
22:29
great leadership is different than what a lot of
22:32
people would say. I think the greatest attribute
22:36
to great leadership. And we'll talk in a moment
22:38
about what does leadership even mean? But it's
22:42
listening. And I don't just mean that I can have
22:49
an ability to listen to you, Meredith, and hear
22:52
what you say based on the content or the con, but
22:56
the context of what you share, like that's hugely
22:59
important. But the listening I'm talking about is
23:03
how good are you as a leader, Meredith, or any
23:07
practitioner listening? Or myself, Stephen McGee?
23:11
How good am I at listening to myself? How good am
23:17
I at listening to for those of us that are
23:20
spiritual, how good am I at listening to source?
23:24
How good am I at listening to spirit? How good am
23:27
I at listening to the wisdom of what I know is
23:31
true for me, even though people outside of me
23:34
think it should be different or I should be doing
23:37
it differently. And that's a self referential
23:41
skill that I've worked on my entire life because
23:46
I didn't grow up that way. I grew up trying to
23:50
please people and make other people happy to my
23:54
own demise. So I think that's one of the keys to
23:58
this great question that we're, that we're
24:02
pondering together.
24:04
Meredith Oke: Wow. Yes. So, yes, because if a person is able to
24:12
listen to their inner truth, let's say, and act
24:18
on that, it would feel to me like that makes them
24:24
a leader, irrespective of what their situation in
24:28
life is whether they have a job title that
24:31
implies that or not. But that ability to live
24:35
from that kind of truth, like just naturally puts
24:41
you in a leadership position. Would you say?
24:46
Stephen McGhee: Well, I would say that that is really close to
24:49
aligned with what I would say. I would say that,
24:52
first of all, yeah, job title means nothing. Job
24:57
title, whether I'm a doctor or I'm not a doctor,
25:00
or I'm a CEO or I'm a mid level manager, or I'm
25:04
an administrator, administrative, or I'm a mom or
25:06
I'm a stay at home dad, leadership is not about a
25:11
tunnel in overarching simplicity. Leadership, by
25:17
definition is the positive influence of another.
25:22
So if I can positively influence another in my
25:26
way of being as a leader, it has nothing to do
25:30
with title. And so I have had in the past clients
25:34
and some now who I'm like, hey, dude, sis, lead
25:40
up. Like you think you're stuck and that you
25:43
can't positively influence upward in the
25:46
organization or sideways in the organization or
25:49
down in the organization. It's nothing to do with
25:52
title and everything to do with willingness to be
25:55
a leader. So for all of our listeners, it's like,
25:59
if you have technology skills, scientific
26:02
information, principles and protocols that can
26:05
serve this planet and you are not sharing them, I
26:08
would challenge you today to say it doesn't
26:12
matter your title, and I would say go for it,
26:15
because you will find, I will find. We will all
26:18
find discretionary energy when we share. Sharing
26:21
is a key to leadership. So how do you hear all
26:25
that, Meredith? How does that line up?
26:27
Meredith Oke: I love that. I love that. Because as I was saying
26:30
to you before we came on, what I really hope,
26:35
what I really wanted for people to hear was that,
26:38
yeah, you're, if you're like, involved in health
26:45
and wellness, if you're listening to this
26:46
podcast, if you know what quantum biology is, you
26:48
have really important information. And I feel
26:53
like sometimes people get caught like, oh, well,
26:56
I'm not as smart as that, that guest, or I don't
26:59
know as much as that person or I don't know. And
27:03
I wanted, you know, I really wanted you to come
27:05
on because I want people to hear from a, in the
27:10
strongest possible terms that, that what you have
27:15
to offer matters.
27:17
Stephen McGhee: Absolutely. And you are a piece of the puzzle.
27:23
You matter. I love what you just said, Meredith,
27:26
because I think sometimes people can take
27:28
themselves out of the game and it's like, get off
27:32
the sidelines and get in the game. You might not
27:35
be the quarterback of the. Sorry for the sports
27:39
metaphor, but you might not Be the team captain.
27:44
But what you offer is unique, and it's not
27:48
complete until you offer it. Even if you're. I
27:52
mean, this is the funniest thing. Like, I've seen
27:54
this in organizations for years. Like, the quiet
27:57
ones, when I go in, they're the first ones I'm
28:00
asking questions to. You want to know why?
28:04
Because they're great observers, and they see all
28:07
kinds of shit other people don't see. And they
28:11
can speak it so clearly, but they don't get
28:13
asked. So you may never get asked, as you might
28:17
be going, yeah, I'm that person. I'm the one
28:19
observing. I'm the one that can see things. But
28:21
then I say, okay, it's incumbent upon you to
28:24
build that muscle of sharing, to build that
28:27
muscle of speaking your truth clearly and
28:30
succinctly and powerfully. You will be heard.
28:34
Because a lot of people just run around the
28:36
flower pot speaking. They don't often say
28:40
anything. So we all have. We all have a gift to
28:46
share. And. And one of the things I would hope
28:49
would come from our being together today,
28:52
Meredith, or the magic of you and me doing this
28:54
together, would be that someone out there would
28:57
get sparked into the trueness of who they are and
29:02
start leading. But leading doesn't mean telling.
29:06
See, people think it means telling. Another great
29:09
skill in leadership isn't telling. It's asking. I
29:13
spend most of my day asking questions. This is
29:17
more talking than I normally do in any given hour
29:20
because you having me as a guest and you're
29:22
asking me questions, but normally I'm asking
29:25
questions. And questions can also be a great form
29:29
of leadership.
29:34
Meredith Oke: And then what do you do? What's next? What else?
29:38
Stephen McGhee: Listen. So again, most people are listening for
29:43
what I call agreement. So there might even be
29:46
guests out there right now listening for
29:47
agreement. It's fine. It's not a judgment. Like,
29:51
what do I think about Steven saying, is he true?
29:53
Is it accurate? Is it 100% my experience? Well,
29:57
no, it's never going to be. But I say, why would
30:00
you listen for agreement when you could listen
30:03
for alignment? Like, what do we really have in
30:05
common as a collective? Speaking of quantum
30:08
biology, what a beautiful name, the Quantum
30:11
Biology Collective. Because we're going to have
30:16
different opinions on different things,
30:18
especially in this field of quantum biology,
30:21
because it's emerging. But there's also a lot of
30:23
things we can all agree on that we can align on.
30:26
And that's where we're powerful. We're powerful
30:29
when we're aligned. And one of the. I'm not going
30:33
political here. But I'm just gonna say that one
30:36
of the biggest problems we see in corporations,
30:38
one of the biggest problems we see in our
30:40
country, one of the biggest problems we see in
30:43
the world is people are listening for agreement.
30:46
And when they listen for agreement, they hear
30:48
something they don't believe in, and now they're
30:51
ready to fight. And when they're ready to fight,
30:55
we've created resistance. And when we've created
30:57
resistance, there's no coming together. Mother
31:01
Teresa said it best. She said, I am not against
31:06
war. I am for peace. That's nuanced leadership.
31:14
So people out there, like, against things, like
31:17
being against Western medicine is one example.
31:21
I'm not against Western medicine. I'm for
31:25
functional medicine based in quantum biology. And
31:30
that's what I would speak to if I ever had enough
31:32
knowledge to do it. I know enough to be dangerous
31:39
on that topic. But because of your guests that
31:42
I've learned it, I want them to hear that I've
31:45
applied stuff from what Peter shared with me, who
31:48
I adore as a leader. Peter's a great leader
31:51
because he's a great listener. Would you agree?
31:54
Meredith Oke: I would agree. Yeah.
31:55
Stephen McGhee: But he's also, when you ask him, hey, what are
31:58
the 10 things you do to build your energy system?
32:03
Well, he can go there. He can go there. And he's
32:07
helped me apply it. So those are all examples of
32:13
what our topic is today. Leadership.
32:16
Meredith Oke: Yeah. And I'm really interested in this idea of
32:20
listening for agreement because it's something. I
32:26
wasn't thinking of it in those terms, but I think
32:28
it's kind of similar that I was thinking about
32:30
recently. It's sort of like the operating system
32:35
under whatever it is, whatever else is going on.
32:39
So I can have. You gave a great example of not
32:43
being against Western medicine, being for
32:45
something else. And so would. Wouldn't an example
32:49
of, like, listening for agreement be. I'm
32:52
listening to, say, a podcast or an interview or
32:55
some, you know, person in the media talk about
32:59
something to do with health and wellness. And I'm
33:01
like. And I'm like, yep, they're correct. Yep,
33:04
that's correct. Oh, they don't know about this.
33:05
I'm not listening to them anymore. Or, oh, they
33:08
said that. But I don't think that that's right.
33:10
So I'm not right. And we kind of. I was thinking
33:13
of it as, like, almost like a purity test. Right.
33:15
They're like, oh. And so we sort of push that
33:18
person aside or push everything that they said to
33:21
one side and put them in a bucket. Of, like, I
33:23
don't. I don't need to pay attention to that
33:25
person because they didn't tick all my boxes. Is
33:28
that, like, the kind of thing you're talking
33:30
about? And, like, when we come in through that
33:34
lane, that we're. We're missing out. We're not.
33:38
There are things. There is a different way we
33:40
could be listening to get value from that person,
33:43
even if we disagree on a few things.
33:45
Stephen McGhee: For sure. Meredith, I mean, you've summarized it
33:47
beautifully. It's like you're. You're shooting
33:50
yourself in the head. So why not have an attitude
33:54
where I'm going to listen for what I'm aligned
33:58
with, and I'm just going to leave the rest
34:00
behind? Now, I don't know about you, but my
34:03
favorite three words these days are I don't know.
34:06
But those were not words I used 20 years ago.
34:09
Very often. Like, I just. 30 years ago, I knew
34:12
everything. 20 years ago, I started to realize I
34:16
didn't know that much, but I thought I knew
34:18
certain things were irrefutable. Now I don't know
34:20
anything. And you know why? Because now I'm open
34:25
to the possibility that I could be wrong. And
34:28
when I'm open to that possibility that I could be
34:31
wrong, I can hear things and I learn more and I
34:34
can apply more. So I think it's a very
34:40
interesting time to be having this conversation
34:43
because there's just so much divisiveness in all
34:47
kinds of areas. You know, it's not just
34:50
politically, it's the world at large is kind of
34:53
in an argument.
34:55
Meredith Oke: Yes. Yeah. No. And what made me think of that,
35:01
and this is, like, a really nice framework for
35:05
approaching it differently, is that there was. I
35:09
was on Twitter, and there was this. Some
35:12
activists who are doing work around getting
35:16
toxins out of food, and they were. And very much
35:21
focused on processed food and improving the food
35:26
supply. And then there were some other people on
35:29
Twitter who are like, it's all about light.
35:34
You're so stupid that you're not even covering
35:36
the light story. You don't even know what you're
35:38
talking about. I just thought, oh, gosh, right.
35:42
I'm not sure that's really helping where we want
35:46
to go. I mean, there was someone doing great work
35:52
in an area that needs. That needs it. And that
35:57
lens, like, that was just, like, listening for
36:00
hard agreement. And I just feel like there's so
36:05
much change that's about to happen that could be
36:07
happening. Like, and you're giving me a really
36:11
nice framework for thinking about that. So it's
36:13
like listening for the alignment. Where are we
36:15
aligned?
36:17
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. I think we're in a
36:24
very interesting time on the planet where we're
36:28
going to start to see a more positive shift
36:30
through leadership in that direction. And that's
36:33
why I'm banging my sharing drum today about
36:37
leadership. Thirty years of being in the field,
36:41
the leadership space, and it's increasing.
36:44
There's oftentimes a breakdown before a
36:47
breakthrough. So let's hope that we're starting
36:50
to move for the breakthrough, you know, for the
36:53
positive solutions for a greater good for the
36:56
entire planet.
36:59
Meredith Oke: And I want to get into the shifts that are
37:03
happening. I want to get into that a little bit
37:06
more, actually. So I'm glad you raised it. But
37:07
before we do that, I just. What are some other
37:10
misconceptions or myths that you feel that people
37:13
have about the idea of leadership?
37:18
Stephen McGhee: Oh, my God. We need four or five more hours. But
37:23
I think the biggest. I'm going to simplify
37:26
something complicated. So I know this, that I. I
37:29
want you all to know I'm oversimplifying
37:31
something complicated, but I think there's still
37:34
value in what I. What I would share here, which
37:36
is the first law of leadership is take care of
37:40
yourself. Breathe that in, like, let that camp in
37:47
your heart and your body. Let it fill your cells.
37:52
Take care of yourself. The biggest misnomer of
37:54
leadership is that you give yourself away all day
37:57
long, and eventually there's nothing left to
38:01
give. And then we have a leader that's not living
38:07
through discretionary energy. We have a leader
38:10
that's sick, and we have a leader that has a
38:13
great vision and maybe great wisdom and skills,
38:15
but they're not able to offer it. So take care of
38:19
yourself so that you can serve others. And so I
38:24
work with a lot of people in that way. They can't
38:26
see it. You know, I have blind spots in my life.
38:29
I don't know if you do, Meredith, but I have
38:30
blind spots, and I can't see them as their blind
38:35
spots. So the reflection of coaching. You're a
38:37
great coach. You coach people. By coaching
38:41
people, you can reflect back what they may not
38:44
see themselves. And so I believe in guiding and
38:49
advising and coaching for that reason, because
38:51
often nobody tells the leader what they can't see.
38:58
Meredith Oke: Right.
38:59
Stephen McGhee: So I know that's over broad, but is that kind of
39:02
helpful?
39:03
Meredith Oke: Absolutely. And that could be. I mean, you were
39:05
almost like describing a lot of moms when. In
39:10
that. In the way that you explained it. You know,
39:13
it's like. Or even just Parents or caregivers in
39:17
general, you know, I gotta give and give and give
39:19
and give and give until I drop. Or, you know,
39:23
people in the helping professions prioritizing
39:26
clients over self care over and over and over.
39:31
Because that feels like that, that what we think
39:35
it means to serve. But you're saying something
39:37
really different.
39:40
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, I think what you're bringing up with
39:42
practitioners and moms, I've never been a mom,
39:45
but I, but I watched and I know my own mom was
39:48
that way, you know, so I think that's a really
39:52
good example. And I also think it's another great
39:55
example of doctors who care so much about their
39:58
patients, they forget about the themselves. But
40:01
we all know it's just, it's, it's just like
40:03
anything. I don't want to walk into a doctor's
40:06
office and look at somebody that's ill, that's
40:09
giving me advice about my own wellness. I, I,
40:13
that's not believable to me. That's not authentic
40:16
to me. So I think if, if you're one of those
40:19
people, it's like, what would I need to do to
40:21
come into balance? How could I shift my practice
40:25
in such a way that I can take care of myself and
40:29
serve people more fully? And I've heard some of
40:31
your guests talk about new business models that
40:35
can support that and it's brilliant. That's what
40:37
is changing in that area. But through leadership,
40:41
anything is possible in those ways. Like, we're
40:44
just all going to have to get out of our comfort
40:46
zone and start looking at solutions that we
40:48
didn't think of last year.
40:51
Meredith Oke: Right. Okay. So listening, listening for
40:58
alignment over listening for agreement, taking
41:02
care of ourselves as a form of leadership, that
41:05
is really powerful. Right. Because I think so
41:10
many of us struggle with that idea. It's like,
41:13
well, if I'm going to take care of myself, that's
41:17
not selfish. Exactly. Or, but certainly to the
41:22
side of my leadership responsibilities. And yeah,
41:28
it's really powerful for you to say no. That's
41:30
not, that's not the right way around.
41:34
Stephen McGhee: Well, you just said the most important, you said
41:37
the most important word in the, in our language
41:41
for leadership. And that is the word no. And I
41:47
say to my clients, clear boundaries are not
41:50
barriers to the heart. So people think that
41:54
saying no is a bad thing in some way. But again,
42:00
I said earlier, obligations are overrated. You
42:02
know, we're seeing this online now. Overrated,
42:05
underrated. Have you seen some of these old
42:08
thermodynamics Is underrated. Overrated. And then
42:10
the specialist goes on and Says about why, like,
42:13
it's fun. I love it. But saying no is underrated.
42:17
Taking care of self is underrated.
42:24
Meredith Oke: Right. Okay. What are some other ways for us to
42:28
think about leadership that we're probably not
42:30
doing?
42:34
Stephen McGhee: The power of leadership is far reaching. So
42:39
you're leading us in the, in this podcast. Thank
42:44
you for doing the podcast because you have guests
42:48
that come on. It takes energy, time. Yeah. You
42:51
know, yada, yada, yada, to prepare, to get there
42:54
and to put it out. Here's the thing about
42:57
leadership. When it's coming from a clear
43:02
intention of service, leadership is far reaching.
43:07
You will have no idea, Meredith, who will listen
43:11
to this, who will then take something from it and
43:14
go share it with their family or go share it with
43:16
their patient, or go share it with a stranger on
43:19
the street, or share it at Thanksgiving dinner or
43:22
a holiday dinner. It's far reaching. Who's going
43:27
to share this podcast with five of their friends?
43:30
Because there's two or three things in it that
43:32
are valuable. So do not underestimate your power
43:37
as a leader as you share as you come into the
43:40
alignment of what we're talking about here today.
43:44
You know, it's just, it's evolution. Leadership
43:47
is an evolution that we have, that we have a
43:52
shared opportunity in together. There's. There's
43:57
an opportunity for us to share, and that's more
44:01
powerful than we think.
44:03
Meredith Oke: Right, right. And you were, you were saying
44:07
earlier about cultivating the ability to trust
44:14
yourself and trust your inner knowing and trust
44:18
guidance from source. And I saw in some of your
44:22
writing you talked about personal sovereignty and
44:26
its relationship to leadership. How do you
44:30
support people to cultivate that, especially, you
44:34
know, in this world? Like, we think a lot of
44:38
things are true that most people don't think are
44:41
true, you know, and it's based on research and
44:45
understanding. And so we've come to it like, in
44:48
a. In a real organic way. And it's real and true
44:52
for us, but it does take a certain degree of, you
44:58
know, that ability to cultivate that personal
45:01
sovereignty. And it can be, I don't know, tricky,
45:06
lonely. How do you support people to get okay
45:10
living their lives that way when a lot of the
45:13
time we're expected to capitulate to the more
45:18
dominant voices or what everyone else thinks,
45:21
what everyone.
45:21
Stephen McGhee: Else says, yeah, boy, this is one that comes out
45:25
of the memory bank. But I think it's it. It will
45:28
be the most efficient answer to your great
45:30
question. Let's see what you think. But many of
45:33
your listeners have listened to, I recommend if
45:35
they haven't read the book A Man's Search for
45:37
Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Brilliant, brilliant
45:41
book and well known mainstream book that has a
45:43
lot of wisdom in it. The piece of wisdom in it
45:46
that I would speak to today is the distance from
45:49
stimulus to response. So why would I mention that
45:55
today? Because most people don't have any
45:58
distance from a trigger, an activation. They get
46:01
blamed for something. There's stimulus, and then
46:04
we immediately respond based on familiar
46:07
patterns. Can you hear that? Does that make sense?
46:10
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
46:11
Stephen McGhee: Okay. So the practice of illumination, of great
46:15
leadership, of better listening, of all the
46:18
things we've talked about today, is to put a gap
46:20
and a distance between stimulus and response. So
46:26
I'm going to ask you a personal question. When
46:29
you feel activated, like you're, you're, you're.
46:32
You might be, someone says something to you,
46:35
like, Meredith, you're just dumb. And, and. Or
46:38
whatever the situation is, where do you feel it
46:42
in your body when you're activated or when you
46:44
react?
46:47
Meredith Oke: Probably most often in my, in my gut. Like, like,
46:52
like seizes up. Like your. Your stomach drops.
46:55
Like that feeling.
46:57
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. Okay, good. Mine starts in the gut, moves
47:00
up to the solar plexus, and eventually I still, I
47:03
can feel my head starting to get heated. Like,
47:06
I'm moving to that.
47:08
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
47:08
Stephen McGhee: So that is a beautiful thing. If you can be. If
47:13
you as a listener today to the podcast, you can
47:16
get familiar with where you're activated. It's a
47:19
sign. To do what? Slow down. Create a distance
47:27
between stimulus and response. You don't have to
47:29
send the email or the text right now. You don't
47:32
have to even reply. You could even say, listen,
47:36
I'm a little. That pissed me off. I need a few
47:41
minutes. So we'll start to retrain the brain.
47:46
Truly, we have the science. I haven't heard as
47:49
much from your podcast. Maybe it's somewhere in
47:51
the archives. But neuroplasticity is a real
47:54
thing. We can retrain it, but we have to give it
47:59
room to rewire. We have to move in the direction
48:03
of what we prefer. Earlier, I said familiar
48:05
patterning. So I don't want my familiar patterns
48:10
running my life, subconsciously or otherwise. So
48:14
somewhere in there, I got to get the gap. And in
48:17
the gap, I take a breath. And in that breath, I
48:20
make a new choice and I stay sovereign. And if I
48:24
can stay sovereign, then I can be whole. And if I
48:28
can be whole, I can respond more fully from a
48:31
place of alignment instead of reaction and start
48:34
a fight that now explodes and goes down the
48:41
rabbit hole. Into a whole host of cascading
48:45
problems. So oftentimes, pausing is good. And
48:50
that's what Viktor Frankl brought to us in that
48:52
book, A Man's Search for Meaning. I mean, he did
48:54
it for. He did it more than a moment. He did it
48:57
for days and weeks and months and I think years
49:00
on end. But he turned to the most horrific
49:04
extrinsic situation in Auschwitz in a
49:08
concentration camp, being vilified and attacked
49:13
and treated horribly with very little food and
49:17
sickness all around him, watching his friends
49:19
perish. He turned even that into a sovereign
49:23
situation. So that's an extreme example, I hope,
49:29
for most people listening. I mean, it's extreme,
49:32
but. So that's the practice, though, and your
49:36
willingness to practice is the key, starting
49:41
today. It's a simple thing. Small things done
49:44
consistently make major impact. There's a quote.
49:47
It's not mine. I don't know who said it, but I
49:49
use it all day, every day. Little things make
49:52
major changes. So those are kind of my thoughts
49:57
on personal sovereignty.
50:02
Meredith Oke: Yeah, that's really deep that I hadn't ever
50:06
thought of it that way. The ability to create the
50:13
space that you need to stay in your own
50:18
experience without causing a reaction, a chain
50:23
reaction, but also without denying your own
50:26
experience.
50:28
Stephen McGhee: Yeah, you're not, you're not shoving your
50:30
feelings.
50:31
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
50:31
Stephen McGhee: You're not stuffing it. You're pausing. And in
50:35
that pause, you might even ask the question,
50:38
what's the best solution here? So again, that,
50:42
that, that kind of brings in the thing I was
50:45
talking earlier about asking, like you can ask
50:48
yourself generative questions. Albert Einstein
50:52
was famous for that. He didn't ask a lot of
50:54
people because he was too smart for most people.
50:58
He asked himself, how can I find a solution to
51:02
this? What's the way forward with this? And then
51:08
give those things room to incubate. Give those
51:12
questions that pause, that space between stimulus
51:15
and response time for a new solution rather than
51:21
an old familiar one that has an automatic
51:24
reoccurring dialogue to it. I know I'm throwing
51:26
out some leadership language today, but automatic
51:30
reoccurring dialogue is something everyone can
51:32
relate to. It's because we've said the same thing
51:34
so many times. It's a pattern. Doesn't mean it's
51:38
the right thing to say again. So it gives us room
51:43
for that source for the spirit to come in as
51:46
well. Like if it. For those of us listening to
51:48
believe in something like that. Like, all day
51:52
long when I'm working with people, I will pause
51:54
and say, give me a minute. And then I Listen, and
51:59
then I respond. And sometimes my response is, I
52:02
don't know.
52:08
Meredith Oke: Right. But I would. I would imagine that
52:10
generates trust. Right. Like, if you are willing
52:14
to tell me when you don't know, then when you
52:18
tell me what you think to be true, I'm more
52:21
likely to believe you.
52:23
Stephen McGhee: It would for me. It would for me if someone just
52:27
said, I'll get back to you, or I don't know. It
52:29
would for me.
52:29
Meredith Oke: Yeah, right. These are just. Yeah. I keep using
52:36
the word powerful, but it really is, I think, to
52:40
integrate these approaches into our lives.
52:46
Because as I was saying before, like, there are
52:49
so many layers and levels, and there's, you know,
52:54
healing our physical selves and healing our
52:57
trauma. But then there's like, okay, now we're.
52:59
Now we're ready to live life. Now we're ready to,
53:01
as you say, get in the game. So now, what are
53:05
the. Now what are the tools and strategies I need
53:07
to cultivate an identity as a leader in the game
53:13
and not as a sick person or not as a struggling
53:16
person or a traumatized person or. Or this or
53:19
that. It's like I'm a sovereign person now.
53:24
Ready. Ready to engage with the world.
53:28
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. Yeah. And Meredith, I would say, again,
53:33
I'll simplify a more complicated topic, but I
53:36
think your listeners can walk away with the idea
53:42
that in leadership, maybe identity is less
53:46
important. What my identity is, is less important
53:51
than who am I being in this moment. Like, we're
53:56
so caught up in doing. And believe me, actions
53:59
are important. We all. We all know that. But
54:01
that. That gets back to will, that gets back to
54:03
force. That gets back to. I know, I know I need
54:07
to take action on the physical level to make good
54:10
things happen. But what most people don't take
54:14
into account is who would you need to be to make
54:17
that happen? Who would you need to be in your
54:20
next patient, in your next meeting with a
54:26
patient, when a patient walks in? Who would you
54:28
need to be to heal that person? Who would you
54:32
need to be? Who would I need to be to get an idea
54:36
or a vision across to a chairman who can't
54:39
currently see that the current vision is causing
54:43
problems and cascading problems? Who would I need
54:46
to be? And I would say that a thousand times,
54:50
because who you would need to be is known through
54:53
this space of listening. It's known in the
54:57
sovereignty of your soul. Who you need to be can
55:00
happen in a holy instant. It can happen right
55:02
now. So it's not a lot of work. So people go,
55:06
well, I need to work on being a leader, I go, no,
55:09
you don't. You need to be a leader right now, be
55:12
a better listener. Starting today at home with
55:14
your child. What would that do in your life? It
55:18
would give you. It would give momentum and
55:21
velocity to the trajectory of your leadership.
55:26
Can you hear that?
55:27
Meredith Oke: Yes.
55:29
Stephen McGhee: It's simple, but it's so powerful. I'll be doing
55:33
a keynote in January on the power of deep
55:36
listening at a conference in Arizona, and I can't
55:39
wait to do it, because so much of what I'm going
55:42
to talk about is presence pays. You know, we live
55:45
in a world where. And I'm not knocking
55:47
professional sports. I love sports. You know,
55:50
people getting paid millions of dollars a game to
55:54
throw a ball. Great. Love that. But what if one
55:58
day we get paid through who we're being as a
56:03
doctor, as a practitioner, as a leader? Presence
56:07
pays. I think we're going to see that one day.
56:10
And that's a hope and a dream on my part. Like,
56:13
but I feel it in my bones because I'm surrounding
56:16
myself with more and more people that get what
56:18
you get that. Get that this is a. This is that
56:23
what seems so intangible is actually real, that
56:26
it actually matters who we're being.
56:31
Meredith Oke: Yeah, no, absolutely. And that is. There's the
56:35
question, who do I need to be in order to, you
56:41
know, fill in the blank? I love it. I love it.
56:46
Okay. So you mentioned a little earlier, and I.
56:48
This is where I kind of wanted to end about, sort
56:53
of. We've been talking a lot about personal going
56:56
deep inside and how to move forward in an
57:00
effective way in the world. What do you see
57:05
happening on a wider level in terms of. And even
57:10
just, I don't know what words you use to
57:13
articulate it. Shifts in consciousness, planetary
57:16
changes. I leave it open to you, but I would
57:19
love. I know that you pay attention, and I would
57:22
love to know what you see, what you're seeing,
57:25
and where. Where you feel that we are.
57:30
Stephen McGhee: I'm going to share a quick contextual story. I'll
57:32
make it very brief. And when we were in 2020 and
57:40
I knew that Covid was coming, I did what's called
57:46
Gestalt therapy, and I did it with COVID And for
57:51
those of us that don't know what gestalt is, it's
57:54
simply. You find an aspect inside of yourself. It
57:57
could be sadness. It could even be a pain you
58:00
have. It could be thoughts you have. And you take
58:07
that aspect outside of you and you have a
58:10
conversation with it. So Covid wasn't Something I
58:14
had at the time, but it was something I wanted to
58:16
talk to. I wanted to find out, why is Covid here?
58:20
So I had a conversation as if Covid could talk.
58:25
And I literally went from my chair to Covid's
58:27
chair. And I learned a lot from COVID Like, what
58:31
could I learn from COVID being here on the
58:34
planet? And so that's an example of where I think
58:39
we're heading. Where we're heading is there will
58:42
be continued challenges. But these challenges
58:45
that we are facing as a humanity are not
58:49
challenges that we cannot overcome. Does that
58:52
mean it'll be easy? No. Does it mean that we'll
58:55
be able to do things the way we always have?
58:57
Here's the answer. No, it won't. It will mean we
59:01
need to think at a higher level of consciousness,
59:05
a more service oriented level of consciousness to
59:09
find the solution. So the answer in leadership is
59:14
use everything that occurs in your day, in your
59:18
life, in your business, in your relationships,
59:21
for your advancement. Use everything that occurs
59:26
for your advancement. It's like, why is this in
59:29
our world? So that we can adjust, so that we can
59:33
evolve, so that we can come together in alignment
59:37
and find solutions we can't currently see. To do
59:41
that, we have to be in relationship with the
59:43
planet. We have to be in relationship with the,
59:46
with nature. We have to be in relationship with
59:49
ourselves before we can be in relationship with
59:52
other people. So some people are moving in a
59:57
different direction. They're moving into fear,
59:59
they're moving into againstness, they're moving
1:00:02
into separation from nature, from other people
1:00:06
that don't agree with them. This is not the
1:00:09
direction for the solution. That's the direction
1:00:12
to the past. We've already had the past for the
1:00:16
future. I think that's your question. What can we
1:00:18
expect? We can expect more challenges, but we can
1:00:22
expect that with the other things that are
1:00:25
happening on the planet, including AI, it's a
1:00:30
great example of what could be used against us or
1:00:33
it could be used for us. So in leadership, I'd
1:00:37
say get your intentions clear, find your
1:00:40
sovereignty and use it to lead and share. Use it
1:00:44
to lead and share. Because there will be lots of
1:00:47
opportunities for all of us to lead. It's
1:00:52
everywhere, the possibilities of leadership.
1:00:56
Everywhere we go. There's. We could. You could be
1:00:59
at a coffee shop and be doing something being
1:01:03
some way that could shift the direction of
1:01:07
somebody's day. So how do you hear all that,
1:01:10
Meredith? I said, I said a lot to your question,
1:01:14
but did. Was there something in there that landed
1:01:18
in terms of.
1:01:20
Meredith Oke: Yeah, I mean, I think what a. What I'm really
1:01:23
experiencing is just what you're saying. There is
1:01:26
a lot of change, and what we know, what we're
1:01:33
familiar with might not necessarily work going
1:01:38
forward. So we cannot afford to not step into our
1:01:45
leadership. It's time. It's needed. All of. All
1:01:52
of you are needed. All of us are needed. And
1:01:55
that's, I think, probably always been true, but I
1:01:59
feel like it's extra true right now.
1:02:01
Stephen McGhee: I think it's extra true, too. And I want to coin
1:02:05
a phrase, you just said it's worth repeating. All
1:02:08
of us are needed. Like, some of us are sitting on
1:02:12
the sideline. It's like, it's more fun to be in
1:02:15
the game anyway. I know what it's like to sit on
1:02:18
the sideline. I've done some isolation time in my
1:02:21
life, existential crises, that kind of thing,
1:02:24
where I'm like, I'm just out. Yeah, fuck it.
1:02:27
Like, I'm done.
1:02:28
Meredith Oke: Forget this anymore.
1:02:31
Stephen McGhee: I just got hit too hard. I'm out. But I've
1:02:35
learned from those times, and inner strength
1:02:37
comes from those times. So if you're someone
1:02:39
sitting there going, yeah, I've been
1:02:40
contemplating how I can re. Engage. It's time you
1:02:44
said it. You said it so beautifully. It's time.
1:02:47
If not now, then when is the thing.
1:02:52
Meredith Oke: Yeah. And it's, you know, I don't. I just have
1:02:58
this sense. I was doing some research for a
1:03:00
presentation, going through looking at different
1:03:04
theories of cyclical nature of history and the
1:03:09
economy, and then looking at cosmology and
1:03:12
different philosophies and that it just seemed
1:03:15
that every single one of them was pointing to
1:03:18
this moment as a moment of the words that came
1:03:23
up, the most were upheaval and innovation and
1:03:29
change.
1:03:31
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. It's beautiful.
1:03:33
Meredith Oke: And so. Yeah, that can feel scary. So the, the
1:03:39
tools and the wisdom that you have shared today,
1:03:42
I think are just so important, so, so important
1:03:48
because we can. We can know all a whole bunch of
1:03:51
stuff, and we could. But if we're not, as you
1:03:54
said, if we're not sharing it, if we're holding
1:03:58
ourselves back, then it's, you know, it's like,
1:04:05
Like, I don't know, almost like it might get
1:04:08
stuck. Like it wants to. The wisdom wants to go
1:04:12
out and reach other people.
1:04:15
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. And there's a. There's. There's another
1:04:18
side to this coin I want to mention, because I
1:04:20
know a number of people. I'm thinking of one
1:04:23
person in particular who is so freaking smart and
1:04:28
is so right about so many things that he shares
1:04:33
on the planet. But this particular person has an
1:04:36
arrogance that causes resistance. So there's
1:04:43
someone doing the sharing, but from who are they
1:04:46
being? They're being arrogant. And if I'm being
1:04:50
arrogant about what I'm sharing, then there might
1:04:54
be some that get past that because they're just
1:04:56
skilled at getting past that. Like I said
1:04:58
earlier, you can take the message and leave the
1:05:01
rest behind. Like, it's. What is the old saying?
1:05:04
It's the message, not the messenger. Like, I'm
1:05:07
pretty good at that, but some people aren't. So
1:05:09
this person I'm thinking of are these people that
1:05:13
are so highly arrogant would be heard by so many
1:05:16
more people if they would consider refining their
1:05:21
way of being and becoming an even greater. An
1:05:24
even greater leader to communicate what they
1:05:28
know. So, you know, I don't know if there's
1:05:31
anyone listening here that falls into that
1:05:33
category, but I know at times in my life I really
1:05:36
had to refine my message through who I was being.
1:05:40
So that's.
1:05:43
Meredith Oke: That's true. And that is, I think, a bit of a
1:05:46
trap. When you, when you do have information and
1:05:50
knowledge and understanding that is ahead of the
1:05:53
curve, it can be tempting to feel that arrogance,
1:05:57
right? Like, oh, those, all those plebes, they
1:06:01
haven't figured this out yet.
1:06:06
Stephen McGhee: They're wrong about this.
1:06:08
Meredith Oke: It's true. I think I tend to attract the people
1:06:11
who go the other way and get imposter syndrome.
1:06:14
But, yeah, that is definitely a booby trap to
1:06:17
look out for on this journey. I'm glad you
1:06:20
brought it up. At the end of the day, we're all
1:06:23
just. We're all just here together, figuring it
1:06:27
out as we go.
1:06:28
Stephen McGhee: I think that's beautifully said. I know it's true
1:06:32
for me.
1:06:34
Meredith Oke: Steven, are there any last words that are on your
1:06:38
heart or mind that you'd like to share?
1:06:44
Stephen McGhee: I'm just grateful to have met you through Peter.
1:06:48
I'm grateful for the work that you're doing.
1:06:51
You're sharing such meaningful, progressive work.
1:06:56
So my words, my final words aren't about
1:06:58
leadership or anything other than the fact that
1:07:02
you're doing it, you know, and that you're being
1:07:04
it and that I appreciate that about you. It is an
1:07:09
easy leading, right, isn't it? I don't know how
1:07:12
you feel, but some days you might wake up and
1:07:14
feel alone. You might wake up and feel isolated.
1:07:17
I know there's days I have that, and those are
1:07:19
the days that are most important for us as
1:07:23
leaders to get together and, and, and support
1:07:27
each other in staying in the game, so that isn't
1:07:32
so isolating and so lonely to lead. And, you
1:07:39
know, the biggest reason is really because we
1:07:43
can. But I appreciate you and what you're doing.
1:07:47
Those are my final words.
1:07:49
Meredith Oke: Oh, thank you, Stephen. Well, same here. You
1:07:54
know, this. This work is really needed, and I'm
1:08:00
glad we're all. We're all here together figuring
1:08:02
it out. Thank you for your time today and for
1:08:05
sharing everything. Oh, and how can people find
1:08:10
you.
1:08:13
Stephen McGhee: McGee, McGH leadership dot com. I'll provide you
1:08:19
links to put in the show notes for anybody that's
1:08:21
interested in what I'm up to. There are a few
1:08:23
things coming around the first of the year, so
1:08:26
looking forward to those things.
1:08:28
Meredith Oke: Wonderful. Okay, so. So when this publishes,
1:08:32
those will all be in there and we can come and
1:08:36
find you. And I will. I'll mention them in the
1:08:39
intro as well, which I'll record.
1:08:41
Stephen McGhee: Yeah. If anybody's interested, too, go to my
1:08:43
website, put in your email, and I send out some
1:08:47
written pieces. One of them's on discretionary
1:08:49
energy. I'm happy to forward those to anybody
1:08:52
interested.
1:08:53
Meredith Oke: Oh, perfect. Yes. All right, so sign up for
1:08:58
Steven's emails and get the wisdom in the printed
1:09:02
word. All right. Thank you, Stephen. We'll have
1:09:06
to do this again and continue to dive deep.
1:09:10
Stephen McGhee: Thank you.