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46 - Final Fantasy Tactics and Demonic Revolutionaries · Mythic Mind Games

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  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind Games, an extension of
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: the Mythic Mind Fellowship, which pursues wisdom on the paths
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: between primary and secondary world. I'm doctor Angel Snyder, and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that you're here. Hell and welcome back to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Mythic Mind Games. Now, as you can tell if you
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  Speaker 1: are watching the video, I am alone. Again. That's okay,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: you know, and I don't mind a little alone time
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  Speaker 1: every once in a while. But today I am going
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  Speaker 1: to be speaking with you about Final Fantasy Tactics. But
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  Speaker 1: I think I'm the only one in the Mythic Mind
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Fellowship that has finished this game, and so that's why
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  Speaker 1: I'm here by myself. And so today I was trying
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  Speaker 1: to think through exactly how I want to do this,
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  Speaker 1: how to structure this, because this is well, this is
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  Speaker 1: a great game. It's one of my definitely one of
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  Speaker 1: my favorite Final Fantasy games, one of my favorite RPGs
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  Speaker 1: in general. And I think that's in part because I
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  Speaker 1: like the gameplay that there's some nostalgia built in. I
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  Speaker 1: love the job system, which is taken from some of
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  Speaker 1: the previous Final Fantasy games, you know, especially five is
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  Speaker 1: where it most became a central part of the game.
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  Speaker 1: But then once you get to tactics. At this point,
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  Speaker 1: I mean part of just because of the nature of
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  Speaker 1: the game, there's a lot more flexibility in how you
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  Speaker 1: play and how you shape and how you strategize and
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: how you well, I guess, engage in tactics. It's the
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  Speaker 1: name of the game. And so I love just that
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  Speaker 1: the gameplay angle designing your party, finding different combinations, getting
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  Speaker 1: different synergies going. And so there's that tactical side I
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  Speaker 1: really like. And you know, somebody who grew up playing
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of RTS games. You know, you're from Warcraft two, StarCraft,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Warcraft three, Combated Conquer, Total Annihilation, and then the turn
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  Speaker 1: based strategy games as well. You know, a big fan
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  Speaker 1: of the Civilization franchise, but especially played a lot of
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  Speaker 1: three through five. And so I love just thinking tactically.
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  Speaker 1: And so there's that element combined with the world of
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  Speaker 1: Final Fantasy, which is always engaging environment. There's always oh
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  Speaker 1: not I guess always, but there's generally strong storytelling dynamics,
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  Speaker 1: and I think especially so in this game. It's an
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  Speaker 1: incredible story. And you know, I thought about, Okay, do
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  Speaker 1: I want to provide you with a summary of the story,
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  Speaker 1: and I started to jot out some notes because you know,
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  Speaker 1: even though I've played this game quite a bit, I
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  Speaker 1: played it back in the original PlayStation era, I've played
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  Speaker 1: it a number of times on the PCs over the years,
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  Speaker 1: and then I played the remaster that came out, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know, a few months ago or so. And and
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  Speaker 1: by the way, the remaster is good. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: that it significantly adds value to what you can get
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  Speaker 1: in the ports of the the you know, original version
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  Speaker 1: of the game, or you know, there's that have come
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  Speaker 1: up to this point. So I don't know it adds
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  Speaker 1: a great deal of value, but it's good. It makes
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  Speaker 1: things a little bit cleaner, and so I recommend going
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  Speaker 1: that route at this point if if you want to
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  Speaker 1: jump in. But I decided that I'm not going to
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  Speaker 1: provide you with a detailed story summary. And part of
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  Speaker 1: the reason for that is one thing. It's really complicated,
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  Speaker 1: Like there are a lot of moving pieces, there are
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  Speaker 1: a lot of names, and it's hard even if you
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  Speaker 1: play the game before, you know, it's hard to keep
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  Speaker 1: track of exactly who's who. And so you know, I
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  Speaker 1: was putting to have some notes to make sure that
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  Speaker 1: I could provide a summary be consistent with that, but honestly,
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  Speaker 1: I don't think that that would be worth our time
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  Speaker 1: in this context, because if you're listening to this, then
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  Speaker 1: either you've already played the game, which case you know
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  Speaker 1: the basic story you don't necessarily need me to recap
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  Speaker 1: for that for you, or you haven't played the game,
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  Speaker 1: in which case you probably shouldn't have it all spoiled
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  Speaker 1: for you, because it's a game that you should play.
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  Speaker 1: And also, if you just really want a story recap,
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  Speaker 1: you can find one of those worked out really well
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  Speaker 1: on YouTube, and so you don't really need me for that.
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  Speaker 1: And so instead, what I want to do is just
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  Speaker 1: speak generally about the themes of this game as a
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  Speaker 1: way of of just framing why I like it so
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  Speaker 1: much and why I commend it to you. Now, broadly speaking,
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  Speaker 1: what we have here is for much of the beginning
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  Speaker 1: of the game, and maybe the first half or so,
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  Speaker 1: the main conflict seems to be between the nobles. As
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  Speaker 1: you play ramsa, who is this this noble? When he
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  Speaker 1: first is introduced into the scene, he is like he's
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  Speaker 1: a he's a mercenary type figure, But then you quickly
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  Speaker 1: go back to act one where you can you go
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  Speaker 1: back a little bit, get some more of his backstory.
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  Speaker 1: And so he is a noble you know, his name
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  Speaker 1: carries great weight. One of his best friends is somebody
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  Speaker 1: of common blood. But nonetheless we see in Ramza he
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  Speaker 1: is he embodies nobility. He has he doesn't have any
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  Speaker 1: self hatred for his socioeconomic standing, for the blood that
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  Speaker 1: runs through his veins. Yet he he doesn't just embody
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  Speaker 1: the title of nobility, but he is somebody of true nobility.
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  Speaker 1: And so you know, he prides himself on who he is,
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  Speaker 1: but he doesn't pride himself over those who are beneath
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  Speaker 1: him in society. And so he has no problem, you know,
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  Speaker 1: befriending those of the lower ranks, such as his best
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  Speaker 1: friend Deleto. And so you have this noble figure of Ramza,
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  Speaker 1: who is of the nobility. But then you have these
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  Speaker 1: these disenfranchised people, who these revolutionaries, who feel like just
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  Speaker 1: by virtue of the socio economic inequality, that a great
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  Speaker 1: injustice is being done to them. This is the party
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  Speaker 1: of Democrats. And I don't mean in twenty first century
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  Speaker 1: American political terms. What I mean is like, these are
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  Speaker 1: the people who are trying to overturn the hierarchical system
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  Speaker 1: and to establish universal equality, or that's what they claim
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  Speaker 1: to be fighting for. In fact, maybe I shouldn't even
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  Speaker 1: call them lower case D democrats. Maybe it's actually to
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  Speaker 1: say that they're something like proto Marxists, that they are
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  Speaker 1: engaged in this class struggle, and they aren't really first
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  Speaker 1: and foremost fighting against personalities that are fighting against power,
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  Speaker 1: right that they're fighting against simply this ranking system. In fact,
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  Speaker 1: there's a scene in I think it's an act one
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  Speaker 1: where where Rams fights and defeats this rebel named Meluda,
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  Speaker 1: and she says, it may well be you've done no wrong,
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  Speaker 1: but it is your place in the world that drives
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  Speaker 1: my hatred on And so this is pure class warfare,
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  Speaker 1: where it's not so much that she wants justice for
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  Speaker 1: any particular crime that's been done against her, any particular
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  Speaker 1: violation of rights that's been done against her. It's not
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  Speaker 1: about the particular, it's simply about the categorical. And so
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  Speaker 1: she is engaged in this class warfare simply because she,
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  Speaker 1: as the member of the proletariative sorts, exists beneath the
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  Speaker 1: power of the bougeois nobility above her, and so she
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  Speaker 1: is driven on just by the hatred of those who
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  Speaker 1: have because she has not. And what's interesting here is
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  Speaker 1: that if this game were written fresh in twenty twenty six,
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  Speaker 1: I feel like her argument would be made even stronger.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like it would be framed to be even
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  Speaker 1: more compelling than it is. But as A stands, what
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  Speaker 1: you have is Ramsa. He takes some of these criticisms
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  Speaker 1: to heart, and he wonders, you know, do we have
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  Speaker 1: some part to play in the disenfranchisement of those below us?
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  Speaker 1: You know, are we doing something unjust? And the answer
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  Speaker 1: is not, yes, absolutely no. Ramsa continues to honor his
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  Speaker 1: station in the hierarchy, yet he still is able to
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  Speaker 1: have compassion on those below him. And so one hand,
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  Speaker 1: the rebels are driven by this classist ideology, whereas Raimza,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: the hero of the story, is able to look through that.
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  Speaker 1: He's able to introspect, He's able to reflect on his
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  Speaker 1: own standing, reflects on the justice or injustice that he
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  Speaker 1: may be causing on those around him, and he's able
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  Speaker 1: to actually listen to the people who are beneath him
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  Speaker 1: as well as to his equals. And so he is
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  Speaker 1: somebody who treats individuals as individuals. He is somebody who
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  Speaker 1: is actually concerned with real justice, whereas the rebels in
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  Speaker 1: this context, they're not really concerned with justice. They're concerned
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  Speaker 1: more with what we might call social justice. And whenever
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  Speaker 1: you need to put a qualifier on justice, well what
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  Speaker 1: that means is that it's not actually justice that we
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  Speaker 1: are talking about. No, we're talking about something else. We're
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  Speaker 1: talking about some justification for calling our indignation righteous, and
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: looking for some justification to call your indignation righteous is
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  Speaker 1: not the same thing as righteous indignation. And so what
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  Speaker 1: we want is the appearance of justice. We want something
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  Speaker 1: like justice, But what we don't want is true justice,
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  Speaker 1: because I mean what is justice. I mean, real justice
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  Speaker 1: would be getting your deserts right, whether it be positive
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  Speaker 1: or negative. That's essentially what justice is. You get what
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  Speaker 1: you are do, You get what you are owed, for
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  Speaker 1: better or for worse. Now, she says here like, look,
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you've done nothing wrong. It is
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  Speaker 1: your place in the world. It is your existence as
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  Speaker 1: part of the aristocracy that drives my hatred on In fact,
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  Speaker 1: she says this so bluntly. It may well be that
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  Speaker 1: you've done no wrong, but I hate you, and I
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  Speaker 1: want to kill you. This is Marxist classicist ideology that
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  Speaker 1: uses the language of justice, but it is absolutely anathema
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  Speaker 1: to true justice. She is not concerned about Ramsay getting
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  Speaker 1: what he is owed. She is only concerned with unbalanced
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  Speaker 1: seeing the inequality that she perceives between her and him.
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  Speaker 1: And I just think it's obvious that this is from
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  Speaker 1: a previous era, that she is a villain in the story, right,
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  Speaker 1: She's not the hero in the story. I feel like
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  Speaker 1: there are a lot of people in twenty twenty six
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  Speaker 1: that would probably treat the Rebels as the heroes of
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  Speaker 1: the story, that would praise their ideology rather than condemn
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  Speaker 1: it as the villainous, unjust reality that it is and
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  Speaker 1: that the game demonstrates it to be. And so what
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  Speaker 1: this game is doing is actually pretty sophisticated, and it's
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  Speaker 1: doing something really good in that it's portraying this classist
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  Speaker 1: ideology as dangerous and as inherently unjust. Well, we're still
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  Speaker 1: meant to have some degree of sympathy and understanding for
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  Speaker 1: the person who is making the argument, and so we're
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  Speaker 1: dealing with real humans who may in fact desire something
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  Speaker 1: that is good, but they're possessed by a demonic ideology,
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  Speaker 1: and in fact, that's explicitly where this game is going
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  Speaker 1: to go. And so that brings us to the connection
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  Speaker 1: between the political and the religious. Now, religion in this
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: game is it's a little bit complicated, but maybe not
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  Speaker 1: as complicated as actually I would like it to be. Now,
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  Speaker 1: on one hand, I will say that it seems to
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  Speaker 1: uplift something like genuine faith, like, for example, at the
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  Speaker 1: very beginning of the game, in this prologue, before we
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: jump back a little bit to Raims's backstory, we start
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  Speaker 1: off in the church, which the church is obviously meant
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  Speaker 1: to be analogous to the Christian Church, and you have
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  Speaker 1: the princess praying, oh, Father, abandoned, not your wayward children
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  Speaker 1: of Ipolis, but deliver us from our sins that we
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  Speaker 1: might know salvation. And then right there, it's a beautiful
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  Speaker 1: way to begin this game in a state of desperation
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  Speaker 1: with a prayer for forgiveness, for absolution, and for salvation.
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  Speaker 1: So it's a beautiful thing. Faith is portrayed as a
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  Speaker 1: good thing. Going to come to find that the church
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  Speaker 1: is not a good thing. Then, in fact, this entire
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  Speaker 1: religion and in the game is rooted in demonic deception
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  Speaker 1: that really there is no God, there are no gods,
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  Speaker 1: or at least that's what the corrupt church says. So
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  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe there's a room to say that there
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  Speaker 1: is still God or gods, that there's something like good
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  Speaker 1: and true religion out there, but nonetheless it's certainly not
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  Speaker 1: this church, right, And so the most positive thing that
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  Speaker 1: I can say about this as a Christian is that
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  Speaker 1: when the church does go corrupt, and you can look
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  Speaker 1: historically and see where the church as an institution or
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: especially you know, church is, you look very far from
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  Speaker 1: that where church is have have gone wrong, and you
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  Speaker 1: can recognize that, like sometimes there's maybe outright demonic influence
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  Speaker 1: at play there, and when that happens, we need a
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  Speaker 1: clean house. And so you know, there's that need for
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  Speaker 1: reform and for fighting back against corruption. But what this
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  Speaker 1: game seems to do is go it seems to go
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  Speaker 1: even further than that and basically saying that organized religion
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  Speaker 1: as such, that the church, which again is very closely
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  Speaker 1: analogous to the Christian Church, that the church itself is
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  Speaker 1: built on a fundamental line. That seems to where this
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  Speaker 1: is going. Because the church leaders in this game are
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  Speaker 1: actually like inly directly with the demons. In fact, they
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  Speaker 1: kind of become demons. They become willingly possessed by the
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  Speaker 1: demons in order to gain power, and then out of
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  Speaker 1: that demonic power they use the institution of the church
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  Speaker 1: in order to accomplish its political aims, and part of
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  Speaker 1: those political aims are making use of the revolutionaries, and
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  Speaker 1: so the revolutionaries are ultimately being spurred on by the
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  Speaker 1: members of these church who are in league with demons.
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  Speaker 1: So on one hand, these Marxist rebels are fighting for
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  Speaker 1: political freedom, but in reality they are an unwitting puppet
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  Speaker 1: of demonic forces. And this connects really well to some
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: of the things that C. S. Lewis has to say.
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  Speaker 1: I strongly recommend that, if you haven't already go and
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  Speaker 1: read Screwtape proposes a toast. If you're somebody who's listening
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: to mythic mind, there's a good chance that you're already
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: somewhat familiar with C. S. Lewis and with the Screwtape
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  Speaker 1: Letters in particular. But if you're not, the Screwtape Letters
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: are a satirical but also I think more theological in
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  Speaker 1: people than the critics are willing to admit that there's
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  Speaker 1: some real theology going on here in addition to the satire.
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  Speaker 1: But what Lewis is doing is he's writing from the
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  Speaker 1: perspective of this demon screw Tape, to his apprentice Wormwood,
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  Speaker 1: about how to secure the damnation of this person that
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: he's attached himself onto. But Screwtape proposes a toast as
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  Speaker 1: a sequel, and in this sequel, the entire conversation takes
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  Speaker 1: place between these demons in hell. And there's a lot
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  Speaker 1: of talk about democracy, and Lewis talks about this more
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  Speaker 1: explicitly in some of his nonfiction essays as well. But
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: what Lewis is getting at is that democracy may be
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  Speaker 1: an effective political tool for holding backterianny. In fact, maybe
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: it's the best political tool we have for holding bacterianny,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: but it's not an accurate representation of what reality is
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: actually like when we mistake democracy as a useful political
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: tool for the way that things actually are. When democracy
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: turns from politics to root philosophy, then we start to
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: think that everything is equal or better yet, everything should
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: be equal. And when we say that everything should be equal,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: than anything that is exceptional, that is greatness itself. Becomes
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  Speaker 1: the enemy. And so we aren't just interested in justice now,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: we're concerned with a social justice that levels the playing
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: field by cutting everything down to the same height. We're
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: not necessarily interested in raising everything up to a higher standard. Now.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: What we tend to do is pull everything down to
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  Speaker 1: the lowest common denominator. And so whether we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: education or sports, or economics or whatever, what we're doing
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  Speaker 1: is that we are handicapping the best in order to
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  Speaker 1: bring everything down to the same level, instead of looking
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  Speaker 1: to greatness as an inspiration that we all might aspire
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  Speaker 1: to and recognizing that, yeah, maybe we're not all going
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  Speaker 1: to hit the same level and whatever deman that we're
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  Speaker 1: talking about, but that's a good thing, because it's a
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  Speaker 1: good thing that greatness should exist, and that it gives
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  Speaker 1: us something to look up to and something to aspire to.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And moving in the direction of greatness is far better
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: than cutting down greatness altogether. And so he argues in
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Screwtape Proposes to Toe Stand Elsewhere that treating democracy as a
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  Speaker 1: root philosophy is actually demonic because it pulls everything down.
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  Speaker 1: It makes us an enemy anything that might call us
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  Speaker 1: up to higher and better and greater things, and so too.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Looking back to Final Fantasy tactics, these rebels who just
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  Speaker 1: hate everything that's above them are acting as puppets that
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: are ultimately led by these demonic church leaders, and Ramsa
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: has some great lines in this confrontation with one of
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  Speaker 1: these guys toward the end, where Ramsa says freedom and
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  Speaker 1: equality are lost upon you. You do not understand, much
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  Speaker 1: less desire them. Know what you desire is power. Whatever
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: year claims, you are just a fallen man who wishes
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: to rise up at the expense of others. The enemies
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: in this game are not interested in equality, even though
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: that's the message that they're preaching. They're preaching equality, they're
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: preaching liberty, they're preaching freedom, But really what they're driven
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  Speaker 1: by is hatred and envy. In their opposition to power,
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  Speaker 1: they're simply seeking to seize power for themselves. They want
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  Speaker 1: to burn down everything above them, not recognizing that in
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  Speaker 1: so doing that, even if they are victorious, ultimately, what
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  Speaker 1: they've inherited is simply a kingdom of ashes. You will
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  Speaker 1: never be great if you make greatness your enemy. You
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: will not get higher simply by pulling down those who
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: are above you. If you want greatness, will then be great.
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  Speaker 1: Aspire to great things. Cultivate virtue, Cultivate a consistent use
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  Speaker 1: of reason. Cultivate the kind of faith that is able
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  Speaker 1: to give you stability and true power over changing circumstance.
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  Speaker 1: Regardless of where you find yourself, regardless of what station
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  Speaker 1: you occupy in life, greatness is available to you by
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: virtue of your nature as a human being. Now, does
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  Speaker 1: that mean that we should never oppose genuine injustices in society? No,
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  Speaker 1: By no means when there is a genuine injustice in society,
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  Speaker 1: of course, we ought to a pose it on a
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: personal level, on an institutional level, like we need to
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  Speaker 1: decry in justice, we need to fight for justice, but
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: we also need to do and before we do any fighting,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: we need to ask ourselves what actually is justice? And
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  Speaker 1: is that what I'm really concerned about? Or am I
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: more concerned with envy? Because those are not the same
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  Speaker 1: thing at all. In fact, they are diametrically opposed. Justice
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  Speaker 1: says I want what is ode to me. Envy says
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: I want what isn't ode to me, but I have
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: no right to have. And that is not justice, as
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: much as we might want it to be. And so
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: what is driving your indignation? What is driving your sense
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: of unfairness? Is it simply an envious power grab or
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: is it indeed a desire to see real, genuine justice done,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: even if you yourself don't necessarily benefit from it, right,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Because that's really what a concern for justices. And in
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the end, thanks to the faith of our heroes and
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: their desire for genuine justice to be done, the demonic
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Marxists implode on themselves as they never pa would because
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: they were from the beginning, whether they do it or not,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: they were not attaching themselves to the hierarchy of ideals,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: but they were instead attaching themselves to the lower archy
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: of a democratic philosophy run wild that inevitably descends into
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the nehilistic void that spawned it. And so, in conclusion,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: this is an incredible game, and in many ways, it's
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: an incredibly conservative game. Whether that's intended or not, I
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: strongly recommend that you play it, engage with it. I
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: welcome you to let me know your thoughts and let
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: me know if you like what I said, let me
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: know if you think I'm way off base. I'd be
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: glad to field either side of that and respond as
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: I feel inclined to do. You can leave me a
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: comment on YouTube, you can send me an email at
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Mythic Mind podcast at gmail dot com, or you can
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: leave me comment somewhere on x and I'm glad to
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: take a look at that. All right, Well, that is
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: where we will wrap up for now. Again, go and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: play this game. I strongly encourage it's it's also in
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: addition to being philosophically interesting, I think it's just a
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: fun game. I really and I really enjoy returning to
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: it every few years or so. All Right, the next
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: thing on Mythic Mind Games will The next thing to
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: come out on Mythic Mind Games will probably be Outer Wilds,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: which we had postponed from a previous place in the schedule,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: so that'll probably be it. If not, it'll be Final
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Fantasy seven, So one of those will be next. And
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: make sure that you are subscribed to all Mythic Mind podcasts,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: that is, Mythic Mind, Mythic Mind Movies, and Mythic Mind
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Games to get all of what we have going on.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Or you can become a patron at Patreon dot com
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: slash Mythic Mind even five dollars a month gives you
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: access to all three podcasts, delivered early and ad free
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: into a single feed. Get to join our discord server,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: get to join some of our live chats, and so again.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: That's Patreon dot com slash mythic Mind. The next thing
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: to come out on a Mythic Mind will be part
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: of my new C. S. Lewis and the News series,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: in which I am taking a look at things happening
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: in the contemporary world through the lens of CS Lewis texts.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: And so if that interests you, make sure you are
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: subscribed to the main Mythic Mind podcast and that is
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: where I'll leave you for now, and so until then,