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EP.78: The Hidden Struggles of Women with ADHD | The Ambitious Podcast · Ambitious Podcast

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  If you are in fight or flight you could buy $1,000,000 golden
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  calendar. It ain't going to do shit.
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  I think so many entrepreneurs self identify and kind of have
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  this motto like, oh like I work really well under pressure.
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  We think the fear, shame, urgency, guilt will motivate us.
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  What sane person would slow down as a response to I'm behind a
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  need to catch up? Nobody.
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  Why would you slow down? You need to go faster.
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  When we are dysregulated, we're stuck in our brains.
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  We're stuck in thinking. We're stuck can fear very hard
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  to execute anything. Hello and welcome back to
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  Ambitious. OK, today we are talking all
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  things ADHD and there is a very specific reason that you need to
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  not only yourself listen to today's episode, but you also
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  should be sharing it with all of your entrepreneur friends and
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  peers. And that is because I found this
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  crazy alarming stat. Did you know that in the general
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  population of everyday people, ADHD effects about four to 5% of
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  those people? But amongst entrepreneurs,
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  studies estimate that on average 29 to 35% of all entrepreneurs
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  experience or have some aspect of ADHD traits.
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  That's right, 30 to 35%. So that's why today is a really
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  important episode for you to dive into and we are joined by
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  the absolutely incredible, amazing human Jennifer, who I
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  had the absolute pleasure of working with and also myself
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  learning from immensely when it comes to ADHD.
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  So a little bit about Jenna. Jenna is a registered
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  psychotherapist and also a Canadian certified counselor.
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  And I will say in my opinion, someone that I consider to be
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  the leading voice and advisor for all things ADHD and
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  supporting adults with that. What I like about her
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  perspective is the fact that a lot of what she teaches is not
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  just theory and principle around ADHD, but but it's actually from
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  her lived experience. She was diagnosed with ADHD,
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  which she'll share in today's episode, actually in adulthood,
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  in the middle of motherhood and grad school and all the things.
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  And it was really then that she started to realize the impact it
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  was having on her life. And So what she did is she
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  basically has paired her experience of ADHD with her, you
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  know, master's in psychology and built an entire practice of her
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  own helping people and specifically adults to navigate
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  real life impacts of ADHD. So I want to talk to you a
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  little bit about what you're going to be learning today
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  because it is a juicy episode. If I could say myself, I would
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  say it's an ADHD master class. We talked about why the idea of
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  I work best under pressure and that mentality is actually the
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  thing that's sabotaging your long term success.
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  We're going to also be talking about the reason that you keep
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  getting stuck in these exhausting kind of crash cycles
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  where you have lots of energy and then none.
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  She's going to unpack her three biggest mistakes that keep ADHD
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  entrepreneurs stuck, including why the typical Productivity
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  Tools like, you know, the, the trackers and the downloads and
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  all of that are the real reason that you're continuing to
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  struggle. And yes, she also talks about
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  timers. So for any of you who have those
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  timers on your desk to stay focused, you're going to want to
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  listen to this. She also goes through and
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  explains in depth her five tier framework that gets to the root
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  of why you are swinging between these extremes in your business
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  of all or nothing thinking as well as behavior.
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  She'll impact why so many driven women do not get diagnosed,
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  often times with ADHD until their 30s and how beliefs with
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  the idea of things like I'm behind or I need to catch up are
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  actually something that's continuing to keep you
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  dysregulated. We'll talk about how to move
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  forward from being motivated by fear and urgency to actually
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  having a sustainable business that doesn't cause you to burn
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  out. This is one of those episodes
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  where I'm going to be honest, you're going to want to grab a
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  pen and paper because the insights that she shares are
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  going to be an incredible reframe and I have used in
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  understanding her three mistakes as well as her five year
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  framework. I also talk in today's episode
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  about how I've used those in my life and the impact that those
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  have had. And so if you are someone who
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  thinks you have ADHD, or maybe you yourself have actually been
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  formally diagnosed with ADHD, please listen to today's episode
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  in full because this is a master class in everything that you're
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  going to need to know. So I'm going to stop yapping.
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  With all that being said, without further ado, let's get
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  into today's episode. Hello you guys, and welcome back
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  to the Ambitious Podcast. I am so excited for today.
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  I feel like I am just as much excited to listen as I am to
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  ask, so I feel like I just always enjoy our conversations.
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  I am honored today to be joined by Jennifer Jenna.
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  Welcome to the Ambitious Podcast.
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  Hello. Thank you.
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  I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I can't wait to dive in.
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  I feel like I was just saying to Jenna before we press record
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  that I had all these all these questions because in today's
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  topic, we're going to be talking about all things ADHD.
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  And Jenna, obviously, if you've consumed any of her content, is
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  an absolute expert. And this is all she does is
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  talks about this day in day out of every lens of regulation and
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  symptoms and how to overcome it, how to live with it.
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  And so there's so much unpacked today, but I really want to
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  start with your story because you noted that you didn't
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  technically get quote, UN quote diagnosed with ADHD until your
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  30s, which I feel like for a lot of people we were saying before
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  you press record, there's so many people who probably feel
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  like they resonate maybe with the symptoms of ADHD or they
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  feel like maybe they have ADHD, but maybe they haven't been
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  formally diagnosed. So how did you, how was the
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  journey of you getting diagnosed?
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  How did that kind of come to be? Yes, it's definitely after I had
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  kids and then when I was in grad school and just life became so
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  big and so full of responsibilities that it just
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  like showed the symptoms more or I wasn't masking at like I used
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  to be able to. So often for women, we are
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  diagnosed honestly mostly in our 30s.
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  Plus a lot of clients is like I'm 62.
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  It's like, hey, better late than never.
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  Anytime is a great time to start understanding yourself more.
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  But especially after kids, that is just something where one puts
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  your hormones out of whack which increases ADHD symptoms to the
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  responsibility and the constant attention parenting.
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  Requires it kind of like puts a spotlight on like this issue
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  that maybe you've always felt like before.
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  I always felt I think differently than other people.
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  Like I thought it was just like this unique thinker.
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  I'm just so special and I'm like, oh.
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  I just have ADHD. But I did.
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  After I had kids. I was.
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  Struggling. It's usually when you're
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  struggling that you're seeking A diagnosis, right?
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  Not just that you're different, but I'm different in a way
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  that's not working. Right.
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  So I just felt everything was so unmanageable.
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  Life felt so hard. And I'm talking like sweep the
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  floor, do the laundry. Like it's not a hard life.
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  It's not hard stuff. But it just felt like so much
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  all the time. And I was so overwhelmed all the
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  time. And so I remembered first thing
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  kind of saying to my mom, I think I have ADHD and just to
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  her that was just so didn't make any sense.
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  It was like only child girl goody 2 shoes did well in
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  school. Calm and quiet.
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  Like, what are you talking about?
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  Yeah, how could you have ADHD? But for women and girls, it is
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  often internal or internalized, like a lot of thinking,
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  ruminating anxiety. You know, the chaotic nature's
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  inside, not outside. So when it's not impacting
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  adults in your life, nobody really cares.
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  Yeah, like you're doesn't. Really doesn't really notice
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  because I think for me like, like when you're saying your
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  family is like, you know, how is that possible?
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  You were the one who was sitting quiet.
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  That would have been my but obviously before diving into a
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  lot of what you've shared in your work that have been my
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  assessment. I remember in elementary school,
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  the kids that were diagnosed with ADHD were the ones who
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  typically like physically were bouncing off the walls, like
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  couldn't sit still type of I guess like assessment was what
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  many people associated with ADHD.
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  But I feel like that's a really different perspective because
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  you're saying all of the quote UN quote symptoms that many
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  women specifically would feel are going to be internalized.
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  So they're not really something easily from an outside way to be
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  able to diagnose. Yeah, so a lot of people go
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  through the cracks and that's, it's one thing to just go, oh, I
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  just didn't know. But like, studies show the
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  sooner you have intervention, the better the results.
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  So if you're just getting by, just keeping your head above
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  water till you're 32 like me, it's like, that sucks, that
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  sucks, it's too bad. But you know, I do think
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  everything happens for a reason. And I was supposed to go through
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  what I went through and I was supposed to figure it out when I
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  figured it out because I was in grad school to become a
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  therapist and I was going to work with eating disorders
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  because that's what I'd worked on previously as coaching with
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  disordered eating and intuitive eating and everything.
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  But I kind of lost my passion for it because it had been like
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  7 years and my relationship with food was so healed.
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  So it's just kind of like old hat.
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  But that's what I know, so it's what I'll do.
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  And I was diagnosed, and then I was like, OK, makes so much more
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  sense. Yeah.
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  And I'm curious like because the the word diagnosis, I think many
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  people assume that to be formal doctor in their office
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  diagnosing you and saying, you know, we've looked at XYZ and
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  you have ADHD is what most people think when they think
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  diagnosis. And in your opinion, in the work
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  that you do, how important or significant is it for someone in
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  your opinion to be like formally diagnosed versus, you know, if
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  we're just going to be candid about it, like TikTok diagnosed,
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  which is like, I'm going through your content or someone else's
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  content and you're listing things off and you go, Oh my
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  gosh, I've never felt so seen. Like do you feel like if
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  someone's consuming ADHD content and feeling like they see
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  themselves, is it important or essential for them to get
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  formally diagnosed? Well, I think it's so personal.
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  I think the only reason people think if you're not formally
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  diagnosed, it's like a bad thing, you shouldn't assume that
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  is because one, people think, you know, they're just trying to
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  get stimulants, they're just trying to get meds, which is not
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  the way for everybody and not, you know, what many people
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  choose to do and is amazing for some.
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  So first of all, to get usually to get meds, you are going to
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  need a formal diagnosis. But I have heard of doctors
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  being like try this. But I'm sure if it's like, wow,
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  that really you'd go get a diagnosis to, you know, continue
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  on the medication. So it for medication, it might
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  be necessary for official accommodations at work.
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  You might want an official diagnosis, you know, because
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  legally they need to support you in some different ways.
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  But another reason why people might think like, oh, that's so
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  bad to self diagnose is because they think people are going to
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  use it as an excuse like, oh, so now I don't have to work as
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  hard. Now I don't have to do anything.
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  Now I just go Oh Ladi da, I'm going to scroll all day instead
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  of. You know, do my chores because I
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  have ADHD. I've never ever met an ADHD or
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  who has that attitude. Like every single one is beating
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  themselves up so hard about not doing enough.
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  They are working so hard. It's just not effective.
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  So it's not that anyone's lazy or trying to seek a reason to do
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  less, but if you think it explains your struggle and then
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  you see tools and strategies that could help you, why would
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  that ever hurt? Even people that are like
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  everyone has ADHD these days. Everything is ADHD on my post.
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  I'm like why are you so pressed that people are finding things
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  that help them Like most of it's mindset.
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  That people are getting support to live better.
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  Yeah, like, who cares? It's not like I'm out here
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  doling out medication. I'm saying here's strategies,
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  here's mindset work, here's nervous system work, here's
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  really positive mental health stuff that could help anybody.
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  Honestly, Well, that's what I'm thinking cuz obviously we're
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  gonna dive into the principles that you teach.
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  And when I think about some people that I even know in my
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  immediate circle who I would not say again, to my knowledge have
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  ADHD, could greatly benefit from your principles and your
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  approaches. So I think it's also like you're
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  saying it is mindset work. It's, you know, the basis of how
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  what a lot of people need as skills to just like live a
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  better life as well. I'm curious if someone's
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  listening and they're thinking, OK, you know, I don't, maybe
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  they don't know the difference between ADD versus ADHD or
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  they're in this place where maybe they have had that quote
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  UN quote TikTok diagnosis where they just feel so seen.
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  What are some of the core indicators or symptoms or kind
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  of signs that you see that are usually more obvious in women
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  that they are struggling or maybe navigating ADHD right now?
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  Yeah, just as a little note, like ADHD is the term used for
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  all types of ADHD at this point. So there's no ADP doesn't exist
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  anymore as a as a name, there's ADHD, but then there's like
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  hyperactive type or inattentive type or combination type.
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  So hyperactive would be like the physical running around little
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  boy in the classroom. And the inattentive is usually
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  more the, and it's not exclusive.
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  Absolutely not. But more inattentive type is
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  more for women and girls that shows up in that kind of it more
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  internalized way. But I will also say I have seen
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  research that shows that as we turn it into adults or as we
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  grow into adults, you kind of turn more to the inattentive
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  type. Even for, you know, the
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  hyperactive boy, you're not going to necessarily see that
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  man running around the office like internalized.
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  Probably because of socialization, and as an adult
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  with a fully formed brain we can now control a bit more of that,
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  but it's still present and still affecting us.
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  People used to think you outgrow it and you absolutely do not,
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  but it might just be more internalized.
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  Got it, got it. Okay.
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  But anyways, the main kind of these internalized symptoms
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  would be overwhelm and paralysis is really common in women.
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  Just like, you know, you wake up in the morning, you're like, Oh
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  my God, like, how am I going to do this day?
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  And you see everything in front of you and it's overwhelming all
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  the time. Even if it's just a normal day
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  where there's not a lot going on.
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  It just feels so like so much all the time.
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  Like even when I had university with nothing going on and I was
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  just. Like, Oh my God.
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  I have to put socks. On in the morning like this is
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  so. Hard.
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  Everything's so hard. And then kind of the symptom
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  that I talk a lot about that I don't think is very, you know,
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  common in the Adichie discussion is that frantic crash cycle.
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  So we're go, go, go, go, go. And then, Oh my God, I've hit a
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  wall and I can't even make dinner.
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  And then at work you're running around like a chicken, your head
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  cut off. Oh my gosh, I'm so stressed.
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  There's so much to do, so urgent.
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  And then? Can't do anything right so it's
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  this up and down which. A really common misdiagnosis for
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  ADHD is bipolar disorder, which I did not realize that until
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  after I. Shared on a on a post I'm like,
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  I used to think I had I'm like questioning do I have bipolar
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  disorder? Like I knew I didn't because
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  there wasn't a lot of the other things that come with that, but
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  there was just these highs and lows that I didn't know were an
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  ADHD thing because it is not in that kind of typical set of
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  symptoms that we hear about. But those ones I think are
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  really common for the inattentive type or that more
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  internalized experience. And that's the one that you
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  would say you mainly see within women or maybe within adults?
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  Mainly in adults I think. OK.
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  And for women, you were saying most women are diagnosed or it's
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  it's typical for women to be diagnosed later in life.
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  Yeah, just because we, if it's like me, I was that girl that
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  was quiet, doing OK in school. Like I was working very hard to
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  keep my head above water. And I was, you know, quite
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  scattered and doing my best. But it looked pretty OK from the
• 15:44
  outside and wasn't too disruptive because it was
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  internalized. So yeah, you just don't get
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  noticed. Until I find mostly for women,
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  it's like the thing that's getting noticed is our internal
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  experience of like this is not a good experience of life And and
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  often like, oh, at work I'm doing really well.
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  Outward facing external stuff looks OK, but behind the scenes
• 16:06
  is a shit show. Like don't come to my house.
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  I have a few rooms that I have to like close the doors, right.
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  That's how we mask as well. So that could also be a symptom
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  of like. Why am I so good at work so on
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  or even entrepreneurs? Why am I so with it?
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  Maybe with some of my my work, but then my personal life is a
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  gong show. My house is a mess.
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  I can't, you know, do my entrepreneur stuff and keep my
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  house and family life going. It gets like it's too much.
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  Which is such an interesting perspective because I think
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  especially in the entrepreneur world, we often hear this
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  perspective of how you do one thing is how you do everything
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  and not like cracks that right open.
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  Because it basically would say that if you're, let's just say
• 16:46
  if your house is a mess, it assumes by default that you're
• 16:50
  that way in business, that you're that way in every bucket.
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  Would you say it's fair to say that people who are navigating
• 16:55
  ADHD sometimes will have things compartmentalized, meaning that
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  they can really thrive in one area, but find that they
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  struggle within another area? And it'll typically be where
• 17:05
  there's more external reinforcement or external
• 17:07
  pressures where we thrive. So I often find that to be work
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  for most people and home life where it's more about you and
• 17:12
  your, it's your own home, your own space.
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  That's kind of thing that we let go and goes to shit because of
• 17:18
  that, like pressure. Where there's pressure and we'll
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  get into more nuanced stuff about this where there's the
• 17:24
  external pressure and you're living in fear and shame and
• 17:26
  guilt, we actually can function better.
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  And where it's like it's just about me and my well-being.
• 17:33
  Yeah, yeah, OK. That makes sense because you're
• 17:36
  performing at work because people will notice if you don't
• 17:38
  perform. But at home, you're like laundry
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  doesn't get done. The only person who's going to
• 17:41
  notice this maybe me and my partner.
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  Other than that, that's about it.
• 17:45
  OK, so you talk a lot because obviously if you guys have gone
• 17:48
  to Jenna's stuff, you know that she hosts trainings often.
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  She's an incredible program, the ADHD groups program.
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  And in this you talk about some common mistakes that you see
• 17:57
  people make when it comes to ADHD.
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  One of the ones that I remember you talked about and I felt so
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  seen when you shared it was frantic energy and this aspect
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  of like being productive under pressure and this idea of like
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  what happens to us when we're constantly in this panic and
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  this urgency state. And so I'm curious if you could
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  share because you kind of hit on these core, you know, 3 buckets,
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  if you will, three big mistakes that you often see people make.
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  And one of those you shared was the aspect of urgency and the
• 18:29
  frantic energy. And so just if you could share,
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  what does that look like and why is that, you know, a potentially
• 18:34
  a disconnect or a mistake that someone might make if they're
• 18:37
  trying to navigate ADHD? Yeah, so when we have ADHD, and
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  I'm just going to add in here and we're in fight or flight
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  because that's my whole framework, because if you have
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  ADHD, you're probably also in survival mode and in fight or
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  flight. And when we're in that space and
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  then in that frantic crash cycle, so it's like, Oh my gosh,
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  I go, go, go. And then I can't trust myself
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  because I'm going to crash. I don't know if I'm going to be
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  able to do anything tomorrow, so I better get everything done
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  today. There's this kind of cycle and
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  this fear we get stuck in. So you're either intense
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  pushing, you know, trying to beat the clock, beat the
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  deadline. It's I gotta do it right now and
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  I gotta do everything today. And then the next day you can't,
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  you're like, Oh my God, so exhausted.
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  I can barely do anything. But it's like, well, dude.
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  Yesterday you were running around like a chicken with your
• 19:27
  head cut off. Of course you're tired today.
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  But it just feeds that assumption that like that cycle
• 19:33
  is fed by that belief that, you know, I can't trust my energy.
• 19:37
  I will inevitably crash if I have any energy.
• 19:41
  I have to squeeze that lemon for every drop, right?
• 19:45
  It's like I have to get. Everything out of it and
• 19:47
  absolutely push until I can't go anymore because now look, I knew
• 19:52
  it I crashed. I have no energy today.
• 19:55
  I'm so glad I got it all done yesterday but again cycle.
• 19:59
  That's how we get stuck because then we believe now we have the
• 20:02
  evidence versus. In my approach is like, we got
• 20:06
  to slow down and we got to focus on sustainability, not urgency.
• 20:11
  Like can I function at a level every day where I can show up
• 20:15
  every single day? I find as an entrepreneur of
• 20:19
  nine years now that the first seven when I was doing the whole
• 20:22
  push crash thing. I made no money, had no growth,
• 20:27
  you know, yes, I had a big Instagram following, but I
• 20:30
  didn't have like a foundational business.
• 20:33
  I was growing. And now in the past two years as
• 20:35
  a more regulated ADHD or an entrepreneur who is just like
• 20:40
  showing up a little bit every single day instead of like
• 20:44
  reinventing the wheel one day and then being absent for a
• 20:47
  month, I have had steady, consistent growth every single
• 20:51
  month. And I feel like I have something
• 20:53
  solid and foundational. So it's just this like shift in
• 20:57
  understanding. We're in a cycle and it's not
• 21:00
  working. We're in a cycle of extremes and
• 21:02
  that is hurting us. It is not the way it has to be.
• 21:06
  We should not lean into it. Some ADHD coaches, I've had
• 21:09
  clients who are like my last ADHD coach said to lean into
• 21:12
  that very taking advantage of that energy when you have it.
• 21:16
  But that's just if you understand the cycle.
• 21:19
  You're like just pulling that pendulum even further in One
• 21:22
  Direction and it's going to go even further the other way.
• 21:24
  So we want to bring those extremes in to be more balanced
• 21:28
  and steady instead of pushing them further apart where you're
• 21:31
  on this like insane roller coaster.
• 21:34
  Well, I also feel like even in hearing that, it almost feels in
• 21:37
  an aspect like the self fulfilling prophecy because
• 21:40
  you're pushing and pushing in the belief that you're going to
• 21:43
  crash. And so I'm curious for your
• 21:45
  clients, are you acknowledging the crash?
• 21:47
  Meaning are you trying to say, listen, no, we're not going to
• 21:49
  be crashing? Or is it a matter of saying the
• 21:52
  crash is only happening because you're pushing so much?
• 21:56
  So the goal is to regulate in that aspect so there isn't a
• 21:59
  crash that occurs. And so like I, I feel like even
• 22:02
  in listening to you, I could see how someone would push, push,
• 22:06
  push because they're telling themselves the crash is coming.
• 22:08
  The crash is coming. And so you kind of end up
• 22:10
  creating the cycle in itself. And so the curiosity becomes
• 22:13
  like, what if we just looked that the crash wasn't coming and
• 22:17
  you had to maintain whatever you're doing forever or
• 22:20
  consistently? Is that kind of typically what
• 22:22
  clients will do? Yeah, that's what we're working
• 22:25
  towards. It's more than just, oh, OK, I
• 22:29
  understand now. I'll just be balanced.
• 22:30
  Like when our system is in fight or flight, we're not making
• 22:34
  conscious choices at this point. Like we are just in reactivity.
• 22:38
  You're just flinging from one extreme to the next.
• 22:40
  So there's that kind of more primal work to do of getting
• 22:43
  your system out of fight or flight.
• 22:44
  So the beliefs are important because if you believe, you
• 22:48
  know, I have to push hard or I will crash, you will never
• 22:51
  change that cycle, right? You will never change your
• 22:53
  behavior because you believe that to be true.
• 22:55
  So that is something we work on as well as what would be a more
• 22:58
  regulating belief, what would regulate you, What would feel
• 23:02
  better is like, oh, you know, however much I do every day is
• 23:07
  good. Like I need to live in a way
• 23:09
  where I can show up like this every day.
• 23:11
  And that's just a good thought experiment.
• 23:12
  Like could I function this way, you know, after a work day
• 23:16
  after, you know, could I function this way for the next 6
• 23:19
  months every work day? If it's no, we have a problem
• 23:23
  cuz you're gonna presumably work for more than six months.
• 23:25
  Yeah, you're. Gonna be hopefully working for
• 23:27
  20-30 more years, however old you are.
• 23:29
  So it's really looking at the nervous system, the beliefs and
• 23:33
  then the behavior that come from that, right?
• 23:35
  Cuz if you believe, you know, I have to push cuz the crash is
• 23:39
  coming. You will act in that way, right?
• 23:42
  I will. Go, go, go, go, go.
• 23:43
  And then I will crash. So it's all intertwined and it's
• 23:46
  a lot more complicated than just like.
• 23:48
  Be balanced, yeah. But that is the thing we need to
• 23:51
  be aware of. In order to get started.
• 23:54
  And I think that's important because I think often times,
• 23:56
  like, again, if anybody scrolls on TikTok looking for ADHD
• 23:59
  coaching or insight, there's a lot of use this tracker to keep
• 24:04
  yourself in track when you're in what I would assume is that
• 24:08
  urgent, frantic state. And you're like, while you're
• 24:10
  frantic and you can't remember where you put your phone or you
• 24:14
  realize that you know, you've forgotten something, here's a
• 24:16
  tracker to help and support you in your frantic stage.
• 24:20
  And so I feel like it's really, it's so incredible to hear you
• 24:24
  share that because I think for so many people, when we think
• 24:26
  about trackers or timers or any of that, you shared something,
• 24:30
  which is that you're not conscious, meaning like you're
• 24:33
  not a matter of always being in tune to it.
• 24:36
  So the only thing that I you can see is that a timer would bring
• 24:41
  you back to consciousness temporarily.
• 24:43
  But you're basically saying by having your own tools, meaning
• 24:46
  even if you forget the timer, you still have the ability to
• 24:50
  kind of tune back into yourself with yourself without the
• 24:53
  trackers, without the timers, without the planners and all of
• 24:56
  those. Yeah, yeah, the external tools
• 24:59
  are really, I see as like a Band-Aid or like an umbrella and
• 25:02
  a hurricane. It's like, yeah, keep you dry
• 25:04
  for a few minutes, but you need a new umbrella, new umbrella,
• 25:06
  new umbrella. How about we just like, calm the
• 25:09
  storm or get you out, yeah. It's at some point it's
• 25:13
  fruitless, you know, which is why a lot of people get
• 25:15
  frustrated. They buy 5 different calendars,
• 25:17
  5 different timers. I'm sure a lot of
• 25:20
  entrepreneurial listeners have tried so many things like
• 25:23
  organize their time. Oh my God, all their their
• 25:26
  business. And it's like nothing works.
• 25:28
  I'm so stupid. I can't do it's nothing to do
• 25:31
  with that is because you are in fight or flight.
• 25:33
  Your brain is not thinking clearly.
• 25:36
  Blood flow has left the prefrontal cortex.
• 25:38
  That's the part of the brain responsible for prioritization,
• 25:41
  planning, and logical thinking. You don't have time to use your
• 25:46
  calendar because you're in fight or flight, right?
• 25:47
  You're in that urgent state versus if you do the deeper
• 25:51
  internal work of getting regulated, getting out of fight
• 25:54
  or flight. Now the tools work like I just
• 25:59
  use a paper calendar. My tools are a paper calendar
• 26:02
  and just a digital wristwatch. Like, not even a smartwatch.
• 26:05
  Simple. That's all I need.
• 26:07
  There's no magic bullet coming in the form of some calendar,
• 26:11
  some time, or some tool. I had a client in a.
• 26:13
  Group say she bought this like she says like $947 thing.
• 26:19
  I forget what it was called. Some people might know what it
• 26:21
  is. Obviously it's like something
• 26:22
  very particular. She's like, I was sure that was
• 26:25
  going to like solve all my problems and that the high
• 26:27
  ticket price was going to like force me to use it.
• 26:30
  If you are in fight or flight, you could buy $1,000,000 golden
• 26:34
  calendar. It ain't going to do shit like
• 26:38
  it's not going to do anything because.
• 26:39
  You are in fight or flight. So that is why I love this work
• 26:42
  because it's like, let's do the internal stuff so that you're
• 26:45
  empowered to show up as your best self and use a simple paper
• 26:50
  calendar, use a watch and carry on and be productive and
• 26:53
  successful with very little required outside of yourself
• 26:57
  versus like, wow, there's an internal storm happening and I'm
• 27:01
  flinging from one extreme to the other and I'm holding on to
• 27:04
  these like external tools as a. Buoy in the water to prevent me
• 27:08
  from drowning. It's like, let's get out of the
• 27:10
  ocean. Like it really is that big of a
• 27:13
  difference. Well, I remember someone had
• 27:15
  said on a earlier episode around, you know, regulation and
• 27:18
  in the context of like productivity, and they said,
• 27:20
  could you regulate on an airplane to be able to go do it?
• 27:24
  And it's like, if you don't have your time or if you don't have a
• 27:26
  calendar with you, how do you move forward?
• 27:28
  And exactly as you said, you're creating otherwise supports that
• 27:32
  are completely outside of yourself, which means in a given
• 27:34
  moment, if you don't have what you need, you physically can't
• 27:36
  perform the way that you need to.
• 27:38
  So it doesn't. Solve the problem.
• 27:41
  And I think, I think that's what's so maybe sad that people
• 27:44
  are like, well, I should just be able to use a calendar and that
• 27:48
  should solve my organizational issues.
• 27:50
  But it's not a logical problem. They say like ADHD is not a
• 27:55
  knowledge issue. It's a execution problem,
• 27:58
  meaning actually doing it. And when we are dysregulated,
• 28:01
  we're stuck in our brains, we're stuck in thinking, we're stuck
• 28:04
  in fear, very hard to execute anything.
• 28:06
  So it's like no tool can or should be solving all your
• 28:11
  problems. It's not you, it's the
• 28:14
  dysregulation and that you can work on.
• 28:16
  Yes, OK. You also talk about that people
• 28:21
  are often, you see, with clients motivated when they come to you
• 28:24
  by fear and shame. And so I'm curious, how does
• 28:29
  that play into part of how people stay stuck when it comes
• 28:33
  to ADHD? Yeah, So when we are in 8 DHD
• 28:36
  years in fight or flight, which I'm assuming every single person
• 28:39
  who hasn't actively done this work is we are using the push
• 28:44
  motivators as I call them to function.
• 28:47
  Meaning I'm running away from the thing I don't want versus
• 28:50
  towards the thing I do want. So fear, shame, guilt and
• 28:54
  urgency. And your brain wouldn't
• 28:56
  cultivate all that and obsess about all that if it didn't
• 28:58
  think it was helping, right? All of this fight or flight
• 29:01
  stuff, all the dysregulation stuff is happening because your
• 29:04
  body thinks you're in imminent life threatening danger and it's
• 29:07
  trying to save you. So of course when a bear is
• 29:09
  coming, we want our body to be triggered into fear and urgency.
• 29:13
  Like, yes, that is going to save your life.
• 29:15
  But when it's emails to write and a launch to do, running away
• 29:19
  and feeling shame, urgency, fear and guilt is not going to get
• 29:23
  you into a place where you're performing well, sustainably,
• 29:27
  showing up every day, taking action and being logical.
• 29:30
  You are going to be reactive, desperate, frozen, all of that
• 29:34
  stuff. So we really want to observe
• 29:38
  again the belief that I am only motivated by fear, shame,
• 29:41
  urgency and guilt. Currently, yes, maybe, but
• 29:45
  that's not inevitable. That's not who you are.
• 29:48
  I refuse to believe, especially ADHD years.
• 29:50
  I think we're the coolest people.
• 29:52
  Everyone I meet is always so interesting and fun and very,
• 29:55
  very smart. I do not believe that, you know,
• 29:58
  anyone listening who thinks they might have ADHD really truly
• 30:01
  doesn't care about themselves, has no desires and no internal
• 30:05
  pull, right? That's just not true.
• 30:08
  But when you're in a state of I'm either running from the bear
• 30:12
  or recovering from running from the bear, yes, those are going
• 30:16
  to feel like the only things that are effective.
• 30:18
  But again, pushes that cycle into even more extremes because
• 30:21
  then now I'm doing nothing. I'm not executing anything until
• 30:25
  I feel that fear and urgency because otherwise I'm going to
• 30:28
  rest and recover, right? Just like I'm not gonna run
• 30:31
  before the bear comes. I'll I'll burn out before the
• 30:35
  bear gets here. So I gotta wait for the bear to
• 30:36
  come. It's such primal stuff, like the
• 30:38
  fight or flight thing in our bodies, which is why I say that.
• 30:42
  But like, yeah, I'm gonna wait and rest until I'm in actual
• 30:45
  danger. Then I'll run and.
• 30:47
  So that would look like from a, a lifestyle example that would
• 30:51
  look like having, I don't know, 2 to 20 minutes worth of laundry
• 30:57
  to put away, but you don't put it away until you have nothing
• 31:00
  else to wear. Or like what would be I guess
• 31:02
  some examples or real life examples you see with people
• 31:05
  that are a sign or an indicator that they are completely
• 31:09
  operating out of what you call the push based kind of motivator
• 31:12
  versus the pull based? Yeah.
• 31:14
  So it might be, Yeah. Not doing cleaning your clothes
• 31:17
  until you have nothing to wear, not cleaning your house unless
• 31:20
  someone's coming over, you know, not getting your automated
• 31:25
  emails done for your launch until the 10 minutes before you
• 31:28
  want to send them. Like it's like, oh wow, I'm not
• 31:31
  pre doing anything. I'm not able to set myself up.
• 31:33
  I'm just doing the one thing right in front of me to keep my
• 31:37
  head above water so I don't drown.
• 31:39
  But I'm not doing anything beyond that because I don't have
• 31:42
  the motivation unless the bear is chasing me.
• 31:44
  But again, that's kind of a conditioned response when we're
• 31:48
  in fight or flight. Because now, like I said with
• 31:50
  that analogy of the bear, you're not going to run from the bear
• 31:52
  at all times when he's not there.
• 31:54
  Like of course, but if you can connect with the reality that
• 31:57
  there is no bear and you're fine, you are not in danger
• 31:59
  right now. I can just I just walk around
• 32:03
  for you. Because I think so many
• 32:05
  entrepreneurs self identify and kind of have this, this motto,
• 32:11
  like, oh, like I work really well under pressure.
• 32:13
  Like if I have like, you know, it's like, it's like if I have a
• 32:15
  looming deadline, like you're saying that e-mail is due in 20
• 32:18
  minutes or like, again, like I have people coming over, I can
• 32:22
  get right to it and be able to get so much done.
• 32:26
  But I guess to to what you're noting that basically creates a
• 32:29
  loop that the bear always has to be around the corner in order
• 32:33
  for you to progress in your life, which for anybody like
• 32:35
  what? Kind of like, and I get that
• 32:36
  because I lived that for 32 years.
• 32:38
  I also was like, damn, I'm good. I can write a 15 page paper like
• 32:41
  2 days before. Well, OK, but one that was a
• 32:44
  horrible way to live. I was always stressed.
• 32:46
  It's not like you're chilling and on a hammock relaxing until
• 32:50
  two days before then writing the paper two weeks, you're going to
• 32:53
  really start that paper. I should really start that
• 32:54
  paper. Why aren't you writing that
• 32:55
  paper, blah blah blah. So it's not like it's rest when
• 32:58
  you're not executing. And I promise you, if you are
• 33:04
  only functioning for one or two hours at a time when you are
• 33:08
  being pushed and at the final deadline, you are doing way less
• 33:12
  than someone that's poopy, doopy Doo chugging along for 8 hours a
• 33:15
  day every single day without stressing.
• 33:19
  And that's what I have really, really seen.
• 33:20
  Seven years as someone who was like that, especially in
• 33:23
  entrepreneurship, push crash, push crash, super intense.
• 33:27
  Now I'm doing nothing. I'm working like crazy and then
• 33:29
  nothing. I did not experience reward from
• 33:32
  that monetarily or internally. Now that I'm just, you know, I'm
• 33:38
  in that forest on a nice hike and I'm going to be hiking for
• 33:41
  hopefully 20 more years in this way I have, what would the
• 33:47
  number be? Dare I say like 100 X my?
• 33:51
  Income. No, maybe 50, maybe 25 X my
• 33:55
  income in two years because I slowed the hell down and now I'm
• 34:00
  walking sustainably and not in fight or flight.
• 34:03
  So it feels like you're doing less.
• 34:07
  Sometimes I'm like, how did I get here?
• 34:08
  I've barely done anything like. Like maybe do you wonder if it's
• 34:12
  not even that you're doing less, but you feel more calm in the
• 34:16
  work? Like it?
• 34:16
  If well, that's what I mean it like.
• 34:18
  Strenuous. It exactly it requires less
• 34:20
  energy, which is that's exactly what I mean is I've spread the
• 34:25
  same even if it's the same energy that I did bursts and
• 34:28
  then nothing spread that out over every day, each single day
• 34:32
  is not that. Write an e-mail, do a post big
• 34:36
  whoop, do a call like it's not that hard.
• 34:40
  But when I was thinking, Oh my God, I have to, you know, out of
• 34:44
  desperation and fear and Oh my God, I got to do all this stuff
• 34:47
  that felt so hard. Even if the next week I wouldn't
• 34:50
  do anything right. It's like and again, it's not
• 34:53
  like the doing nothing was going on vacation and having fun.
• 34:56
  It was sitting there frozen, scrolling, feeling shame because
• 35:00
  I should be doing more and now I like play tennis once a week and
• 35:04
  I'm genuinely so present and having fun.
• 35:07
  Like taking time out of my work days to go do fun stuff and when
• 35:12
  I'm at home working, I'm working.
• 35:14
  But in a like Doo tee Doo tee Doo.
• 35:16
  That's just the, that's the sound that all my clients are
• 35:18
  like, I hear you in my mind, Jada Doo tee Doo, tee Doo.
• 35:21
  It's like life can be that calm and simple and you can get way
• 35:25
  further than when you think, oh, I need to hustle, I need to
• 35:28
  push, I need to go so hard because the crash is again, it's
• 35:32
  just the cycle we're in. And if you can find
• 35:35
  sustainability and regulation, less work, more reward, more
• 35:40
  fun. It's like no downfall to it.
• 35:43
  There's just such a. Massive mindset element to it
• 35:45
  because even as you said, like I sit there and I scroll and you
• 35:49
  know the shame that comes up, I would imagine too like this
• 35:52
  constant fight or flight or this constant like push, push, push,
• 35:55
  and then you crash, push, push, push and then crash it.
• 35:58
  Also, I feel like over time and probably even especially for
• 36:01
  yourself, if you got diagnosed in your 30s, there's that period
• 36:05
  where you think like, do I am I just not able to be consistent?
• 36:08
  Am I just not able to do things every single day?
• 36:12
  Like I think like even for people that I know who feel like
• 36:15
  they're super, super clean or their house is a mess and it's
• 36:18
  like this, like I can never seem to be or maintain it.
• 36:22
  Like it's this identity and belief in this mindset that I
• 36:26
  would also hazard to guess feels very heavy.
• 36:29
  Like obviously you have the realities around you that are
• 36:31
  heavy, meaning no one enjoys that I have a clean house and
• 36:34
  how it's all a disaster. But I think there's also like
• 36:38
  you're saying the shame aspect, which is we then internalize, I
• 36:41
  would assume what that means about us.
• 36:44
  It's like I lack consistency or I was the one who made the mess
• 36:47
  or I couldn't stay consistent with my promise of XYZ.
• 36:50
  Like I feel like there's such a deep mindset that kind of gets
• 36:53
  validated then when really it's just a cycle that's a result of
• 36:59
  your regulation. Or even like the realities of
• 37:04
  being dysregulated, you internalize that as personal
• 37:07
  failing choice, who you are, laziness, right?
• 37:12
  Versus it's real, it's real. You really were intense and
• 37:16
  cleaning a lot and then you crashed and now everything's a
• 37:19
  shit show and it's so overwhelming even gets to start
• 37:21
  cleaning again, right? And it's kind of that again, the
• 37:24
  cycle in that way where it does pile up so much that now it
• 37:27
  feels so big to start that I don't start and I avoid it even
• 37:30
  longer. So that's very much a reality.
• 37:33
  But that's not you. It's not inevitable and that's
• 37:36
  not permanent. That is dysregulation and we can
• 37:39
  get out of fight or flight and into regulations.
• 37:41
  So the ADHD experience is much much more manageable.
• 37:46
  OK, so let's talk about how to over overcome it.
• 37:50
  And obviously when I say this, I want to preface, this is not
• 37:53
  like a magic pill because I know that this is work that you
• 37:55
  integrate with people, as you noted earlier.
• 37:57
  But you have kind of this this five step or five tier ADHD
• 38:01
  framework. And one of the things that you
• 38:04
  guys will notice if you go to any of Jenna's content or her
• 38:07
  podcast, as you often talk about regulation as like the center of
• 38:11
  of all of it. And obviously you mentioned some
• 38:12
  others today like beliefs, all or nothing thinking and we'll
• 38:15
  get into those. But the first one obviously
• 38:17
  being regulation. And so when someone thinks about
• 38:20
  regulation, what are maybe signs that we are dysregulated?
• 38:25
  Because in the entrepreneur space specifically, we see that
• 38:29
  like you're anxious, you're jittery, you're feeling on edge,
• 38:33
  you're overreacting, you're breathing heavily.
• 38:36
  We often hear that conversation mainly in the topics of like
• 38:39
  breath work and ice bath and meditation and all of those
• 38:42
  things. But I'm wondering in like
• 38:44
  day-to-day lack of regulation because often times when you see
• 38:47
  the entrepreneur space, it's talked about in such extreme
• 38:50
  circumstances of like you're completely dysregulated.
• 38:53
  But I'm thinking you're talking about existing just regulated
• 38:56
  day-to-day. And so I'm curious like for the
• 38:59
  kind of, I guess, Pillar 1 of regulation, what does that
• 39:02
  regulation foundation kind of look like?
• 39:05
  Totally, I will say just as you know, the more I do this work,
• 39:08
  the more I understand it and connect more dots.
• 39:10
  So you know, I've actually shifted to explain to us three
• 39:13
  types of regulation. So that first being nervous
• 39:16
  system regulation. So that is the part where your
• 39:18
  primal being is thinking it's in danger.
• 39:22
  And the way that we can identify that is very simple, specific
• 39:26
  symptoms like heart racing, tense muscles physically rushing
• 39:33
  or even like the mental rushing, you know, your thoughts just
• 39:35
  moving so, so fast and you know, feeling hot and flush.
• 39:39
  All of these signs, and often they are physical signs of
• 39:43
  anxiety. You could clump those in there,
• 39:45
  right? Butterflies, that anxious tummy
• 39:47
  feeling, that's always my, I'm like, well, I don't like that.
• 39:50
  But those are signs of dysregulation.
• 39:55
  And this might be tricky for some people because they may
• 39:56
  have been calling it anxiety and thinking that's a separate thing
• 39:59
  for a long time. Clump it in there for now,
• 40:01
  right? Anxiety is just your brain
• 40:03
  trying to keep you safe because it thinks it's in danger.
• 40:05
  So it's all the same. So all of those would be signs
• 40:08
  of dysregulation. And the first step is being
• 40:11
  aware of it in the moment, Meaning when you're, you know,
• 40:15
  you're sitting at your desk writing out an e-mail at so damn
• 40:18
  fast, they're like, Oh my God, let me just get this over with.
• 40:21
  I'm just regulated, right? That rushing, that's the best
• 40:24
  one because it's physical. It's a little bit more outside
• 40:26
  of you, so you can see it a little bit more visually.
• 40:29
  So physically rushing, heart racing, tense muscles, often 80
• 40:34
  years have like TMJ and like trap tension.
• 40:36
  So like being like this all day. Like.
• 40:39
  Part of it, and those are all signs.
• 40:41
  And then there's the mental side, which is like rumination,
• 40:44
  overwhelm, paralysis, racing thoughts.
• 40:48
  Those would also be part of that because your brain is trying to
• 40:51
  like crack the code and keep you safe, right?
• 40:52
  Let me ruminate on this and think about it for a week
• 40:54
  straight. Even though might be something
• 40:56
  you have no control over, there's nothing to figure out,
• 40:59
  but your brain feels unsafe, so it's trying to think about
• 41:01
  something over and over and over again.
• 41:03
  Even if you don't want to think about it, it won't let go.
• 41:06
  Those would all be signs of nervous system dysregulation.
• 41:10
  And so when you mention regulation a lot, as I was
• 41:13
  saying, like of what people will talk about is regulating by
• 41:17
  doing things. And so you were saying like the
• 41:19
  rushing, for example. And I remember you had mentioned
• 41:22
  to me like on a, on a discussion, a call somewhere,
• 41:25
  you said like such an easy thing to do is to ask yourself, like
• 41:27
  when you're cleaning in the house, are you like running
• 41:29
  around cleaning or you just cleaning?
• 41:31
  And it's actually funny because it was like 2 days ago and I had
• 41:35
  like make up stuff all over the counter and toiletries,
• 41:37
  whatever. And I remember like, oh, I gotta
• 41:39
  go, I gotta go, I gotta go. So I started cleaning
• 41:42
  frantically and I because my bathroom is 1 big long near.
• 41:46
  I caught myself. Like, like, you know, like I was
• 41:48
  just again, like not present. And I caught myself and I'm go,
• 41:52
  go, go. And I'm rushing and I'm trying
• 41:53
  to throw things everywhere to organize them.
• 41:56
  And as soon as I just like took a second, it was like chill out
• 42:00
  and clean normal. And so I was like, OK, great,
• 42:03
  slow down. And as soon as I did, the
• 42:05
  interesting part was I actually got it done faster.
• 42:09
  And I remember you talking about the fact that obviously there's
• 42:12
  dysregulation, but regulating should ideally be something that
• 42:16
  you can do in a given moment. And I think many times we hear
• 42:20
  about regulation being things like, you know, to regulate your
• 42:23
  nervous system, exercise and like go do yoga and things like
• 42:27
  that. And you talk about the ability
• 42:29
  to make regulation like simple and easy.
• 42:31
  So I'm curious, like if someone's in that moment, they
• 42:34
  feel like they are frantic within their house or they're
• 42:37
  like rush, rush, rush and they're trying to not just send
• 42:39
  an e-mail, but like frantically send an e-mail to get it done
• 42:42
  faster. How do we catch ourselves?
• 42:45
  How do we get that awareness to be like, wait a second and
• 42:48
  center? Yeah, it's like it's really one
• 42:51
  you got to be aware if you are not aware of it and labeling,
• 42:55
  oh, I'm dysregulated, you know, you can't do something with
• 42:58
  something you're not aware of. So #1 Honestly, I would just
• 43:02
  spend time people clocking it like throughout say a few days,
• 43:05
  like there it is. I see I'm rushing.
• 43:08
  Oh, I see I'm tense. Oh great.
• 43:10
  Cuz that now it, when you start to notice something, it's like
• 43:12
  when you want to buy a car and you start seeing it everywhere.
• 43:14
  It's like you need to like start noticing it cuz then you're
• 43:17
  going to notice it more and then you can do stuff with it.
• 43:19
  But then how we interrupted is in the moment regulation.
• 43:22
  Meaning if I'm rushing, I slow down, right?
• 43:24
  What's the antidote physically? What's the change of state I can
• 43:28
  make to get my to kind of knock my system off of this
• 43:32
  dysregulated? Cycle, knock it off of its
• 43:36
  course for a second. Even if it's for one second,
• 43:38
  it's a value, right? Everything above 0 accumulates.
• 43:41
  So it's a consistency, meaning not even consistency because we
• 43:45
  can be so rigid about that, but continuous effort to interrupt
• 43:49
  that. So if you're physically rushing,
• 43:51
  like you did a great job, Oh, slow down and you continue what
• 43:54
  you're doing, but in slowed down, not, you know, frantic.
• 43:59
  If you notice, Oh, I'm I'm just sitting here.
• 44:01
  I'm not doing anything. I'm not rushing, but I'm so
• 44:03
  tense. My shoulders are around my ears
• 44:04
  and I'm holding my breath. That can actually be another 10.
• 44:10
  Physically, that just changes things for me.
• 44:11
  Even there, even pretending to be tense and holding my breath
• 44:14
  and taking a deep breath, it's like, yeah, it's nice.
• 44:17
  Like it will really change your internal state.
• 44:20
  So that's all it ever is. Interruption, interruption,
• 44:24
  interruption. Physically, to work on nervous
• 44:27
  system, you must change your physical state and your nervous
• 44:30
  system has to have a new experience over time.
• 44:34
  That's what kind of knocks it back into the bear must be gone.
• 44:38
  I think I'm okay. Maybe I can naturally just keep
• 44:41
  my shoulders down and my breathing going instead of
• 44:43
  always having to remind myself. But it starts with the conscious
• 44:47
  reminder and the awareness rushing for me is my favorite
• 44:50
  one. And sometimes I'll really go
• 44:52
  crazy. The other day I was working, my
• 44:54
  mom was at an appointment, so I just took my computer to the
• 44:56
  coffee shop down the street. I was like walking across the
• 44:59
  street and I'm like, notice how slow I was going.
• 45:01
  I was like, this is so nice. It's just like no rush.
• 45:06
  It's like we forget, you know, it's like challenging that going
• 45:09
  in the opposite way almost sometimes just to prove to
• 45:13
  yourself you can is like there's no rush.
• 45:16
  Take it easy. And that's the nervous system
• 45:19
  regulation pieces interrupting it physically, your nervous
• 45:21
  system doesn't speak any languages.
• 45:23
  You can't talk to it. You can't say you're, you know
• 45:26
  you're safe. That's not.
• 45:28
  Gonna. Yeah, that's not gonna be
• 45:29
  enough. We can talk about the thought
• 45:31
  and believe stuff in a second if you want, but, and that's tied
• 45:34
  in, but it can't just be that you have to actually interrupt
• 45:37
  your state, whether it be relaxing muscles, a deep breath,
• 45:40
  or slowing down. Honestly, that's enough.
• 45:43
  Those three, if you did that somewhat consistently when you
• 45:47
  noticed you were dysregulated, you would have a change of
• 45:50
  state. And I guess a, a question that I
• 45:53
  have, because I feel like it would be something that if I was
• 45:56
  listening, I would want to know is do you ever still today after
• 46:00
  all this work get dysregulated? Because I think you mentioned
• 46:04
  one of the things that, you know, people you work with are
• 46:06
  like, but I want to be consistent and I want to do it
• 46:08
  perfectly. And it's like this like all or
• 46:09
  nothing, which we'll get to. And I'm wondering for the person
• 46:13
  listening, do you have to still practice this or do you feel
• 46:17
  like it has now because of repetition and consistency
• 46:20
  become like this like way of being?
• 46:23
  I would say 100% of the time I was dysregulated before.
• 46:26
  Now I function from a place of regulation, but I can get
• 46:29
  dysregulated. So like my baseline is chill.
• 46:33
  I wake up and I'm just present in the room.
• 46:35
  I'm in my bed. Usually there's a child that's
• 46:37
  crawled in beside me and I can say good morning, right?
• 46:39
  I'm not like, Oh my God, what am I going to do today?
• 46:41
  How am I going to handle all that?
• 46:42
  Oh my God, I have two calls in. How am I going to right?
• 46:44
  That's what I used to be like. So most of the time I'm
• 46:47
  regulated, but I absolutely get dysregulated.
• 46:49
  Such a good example which I was actually going to make a post
• 46:51
  about this reenactment about this yesterday.
• 46:54
  I was at this left turning light with my boys going to a friend's
• 46:59
  kids birthday party. Do not need to be there the
• 47:02
  minute it starts like this is not life or death.
• 47:05
  But we were at this light and there was some weird
• 47:07
  construction going on and it was absurdly taking a very long time
• 47:11
  like this one. You know how like every light so
• 47:13
  long and then your light is like so short and it's a bit
• 47:16
  frustrating. I was definitely noticing like,
• 47:19
  Oh my God, we're going to be late.
• 47:20
  Oh my God, why is this light taking so long?
• 47:22
  And I was like, girl, OK. And then for me at this point,
• 47:28
  it starts with the self talk, but then you have to do the
• 47:33
  external or the physical change as well.
• 47:37
  But if your brain is going, Oh my God, it shouldn't be taking
• 47:39
  this long and we're going to be late and it's bad if we're going
• 47:42
  to be late and everyone's going to be mad.
• 47:43
  And Oh my God, if it could be very hard to like take a deep
• 47:46
  breath and relax. So I noticed I was thinking that
• 47:48
  and I was sitting there and like, because my boys were in
• 47:51
  the back, I said out loud, well, I guess it'll take as long as it
• 47:55
  takes. Like, what are we going to do?
• 47:58
  There's no rush. And then I went and I turned the
• 48:02
  music up a little bit and we just sang to the music.
• 48:04
  I'm like, what else am I gonna do?
• 48:06
  I either sit here in pain thinking about how it should be
• 48:09
  faster and how it's so bad and living in fear and freaking out
• 48:13
  over something that's perfectly fine, or I can talk to myself a
• 48:17
  little bit, take a deep breath and be here and just chill.
• 48:22
  It's wild how much control we have over our physical
• 48:25
  experience inside our bodies when you know what to do.
• 48:28
  And so and then I was fine the rest of the day.
• 48:30
  So it was like probably like a 2 minute little blip, big whoop.
• 48:34
  It's totally fine. I expect to get dysregulated and
• 48:37
  I get more dysregulated about bigger things for longer.
• 48:40
  Like maybe a whole day, you know, about like a launch or you
• 48:44
  know, something with my business that I'm scared of or I'm
• 48:46
  writing a book and that can be really big and scary.
• 48:49
  And so yes, I'll have bigger instances, but I still have the
• 48:52
  tools, the knowledge. I know how to come back down,
• 48:54
  get out of it and not like stay there and then crash or tip into
• 48:58
  paralysis. I have not experienced paralysis
• 49:00
  for a good year and a half, if not two years because of these
• 49:04
  tools not going so far until those extremes that I tip into
• 49:07
  that. And when you say paralysis, just
• 49:10
  for someone who kind of would want to picture that because
• 49:12
  maybe they're in that place, what would paralysis look like?
• 49:17
  I feel. Like we need a new word.
• 49:18
  It says definitely not politically correct, but that is
• 49:21
  the word that's used. So I'm going to use it.
• 49:24
  But it is like you want to do something and you physically
• 49:29
  literally can't. And no one could understand
• 49:32
  that. Just get up and do it.
• 49:34
  You can't. It's not that you physically
• 49:36
  can't. But there's, you know, it's like
• 49:38
  freeze, fight, flight, freeze, Vaughn.
• 49:41
  It is like a deer in the headlights.
• 49:42
  You think that deer is thinking they want to stand here in the
• 49:46
  middle of the road and stare at those headlights and freeze.
• 49:49
  No, it's a biological response to be thinking there's like a
• 49:52
  predator going to get you and that's the way you're going to
• 49:55
  survive is by freezing. So it's very biological.
• 49:58
  It is not our fault, but it is also something we can prevent by
• 50:02
  being regulated because that's when we go into fight or flight
• 50:04
  that that happens. Got it, got it.
• 50:07
  I feel like for me, that's shown up in like seeing all the things
• 50:11
  that need to be done and feeling like I have no capacity
• 50:14
  typically until a day or two later, once I actually would
• 50:18
  quote UN quote rest. But the interesting part was
• 50:20
  that my brain wouldn't rest. My body was resting.
• 50:23
  So like, the entire time that you're sitting, you're thinking
• 50:27
  about all the things you should be doing even though you're not
• 50:29
  doing them. And you're like, I'm gonna do
• 50:31
  them tomorrow because then I'm gonna have the motivation to do
• 50:33
  it. But then again, it's this
• 50:35
  constant cycle you're talking about, yes?
• 50:37
  And what's I will just say, what's so nice is a regulated
• 50:40
  ADHD or if I rest, I rest. If I'm gonna do something, I do
• 50:43
  it. I don't fight with it.
• 50:45
  I really should be. If I think I should be doing it,
• 50:47
  I'm going to go do it then. Or if I'm going to say no, I'm
• 50:49
  not doing it or have no energy or can't do it, I accept and I
• 50:52
  move on and I actually rest, which then restores me to do
• 50:55
  things later versus this no man's land of like, I'm not
• 50:58
  resting, but I'm not doing and I'm getting nowhere, right?
• 51:01
  It's this stagnancy, which that's what paralysis can feel
• 51:04
  like, especially if you're like, I really want to be doing that
• 51:07
  or I feel so much shame and I should be doing that, but I'm
• 51:09
  not, right? It's just like no man's land.
• 51:12
  It's like purgatory. It's a little religious really.
• 51:16
  It's like this in between. I'm not resting and enjoying
• 51:19
  myself, but I'm also not doing anything and getting anything
• 51:21
  done. And when you're regulated, you
• 51:23
  either resting or doing. Well, that kind of also segues
• 51:26
  into your other piece, which is the belief system, because I
• 51:29
  feel like part of you talk about the importance, which is kind
• 51:33
  of, I guess, like the Tier 2 of the, the significance of your
• 51:35
  beliefs and your values. And like how what we believe
• 51:39
  about ourselves or about, let's just say, for example, to that,
• 51:42
  that example about work or about rest, how that influences our
• 51:46
  ability to stay stuck. And I remember you had shared
• 51:50
  with me, you know, prompting questions of things to consider
• 51:54
  and you had said, you know, well, what, what were you taught
• 51:56
  to believe about rest? What were you taught to believe
• 52:00
  about like just sitting? And my belief was like, if
• 52:04
  there's work to be done, you do it.
• 52:06
  Like that was something that growing up, grandparents,
• 52:09
  parents, that was always what was passed on.
• 52:11
  If there's work to be done, you shouldn't be sitting down.
• 52:14
  And so then that kind of like further reinforced, just like
• 52:16
  you're saying, when I would go to sit, I'm like, Oh my God,
• 52:19
  there's so much work that needs to be done.
• 52:20
  There's so much that needs to be done here and you couldn't rest.
• 52:22
  And so I'm curious, how do beliefs or maybe even values
• 52:27
  that, you know, whether they're caught from someone, they're
• 52:29
  taught to us, how do those impact the experience of ADHD?
• 52:35
  So we have the nervous system regulation, which is I see as
• 52:37
  like a tree is like the roots. Then the trunk of that is your
• 52:39
  thoughts and beliefs. So I'm now calling that thought
• 52:41
  belief regulation is like, are your thoughts and beliefs adding
• 52:48
  to your dysregulation? Are they dysregulating you?
• 52:51
  If I believe I should always be doing things and can never rest
• 52:55
  until everything's done, my God, you're going to be dysregulated
• 52:58
  because it's never going to be done.
• 52:59
  That's the nature of life. The To Do List never ends.
• 53:03
  So if that, But if we're caught in that, you will push yourself
• 53:06
  until you crash and that belief will be dysregulating.
• 53:09
  So we can go on and on about why I don't believe dysregulating
• 53:13
  beliefs are true, but that's kind of a secondary
• 53:16
  conversation. The main thing is if your
• 53:18
  beliefs are dysregulating, I don't care if they're true,
• 53:21
  they're not helping you, right? Because beliefs are an opinion.
• 53:24
  They're not objective truths. So if so, some people might
• 53:29
  really have a few beliefs where it's like, but it's true, but
• 53:31
  it's true and they have a hard time letting that go.
• 53:33
  So we would work deeper on that. But if you believe I'm behind
• 53:36
  and need to catch up, and you believe that every day for the
• 53:40
  rest of your life, you will never be regulated because what
• 53:43
  sane person would slow down as a response to I'm behind and need
• 53:47
  to catch up? Nobody.
• 53:49
  Why would you slow down? You need to go faster.
• 53:52
  Yeah. But well, actually maybe on that
• 53:54
  what, what are, you know, in all the work you've done with
• 53:57
  clients, what are some maybe like common beliefs or values or
• 54:01
  examples that someone might think of that are an indicator
• 54:05
  that our beliefs and values could be, you know, fueling, if
• 54:09
  you will, the dysregulation we're experiencing?
• 54:11
  Totally. So I'm behind.
• 54:14
  I need to catch up. I think that's number one.
• 54:15
  I don't know. I need each Drew who doesn't
• 54:17
  believe that every single day, no matter, no matter the
• 54:20
  reality. That's the thing.
• 54:21
  It's no like, wow, I'm caught up now.
• 54:24
  Life is good and I'm good to go forever.
• 54:26
  No, you might have one afternoon where you're like, oh, great.
• 54:28
  But then it comes back around the next day so that there's not
• 54:32
  enough time in the day. I can't, you know, enjoy things
• 54:36
  until everything's done. Just got to get, you know,
• 54:39
  through this week and then next week I'll relax or it's this
• 54:42
  always this like tricking ourselves into that push, push,
• 54:45
  push, go, go, go. Hustle, hustle, hustle.
• 54:48
  You can't slow down. You got to work harder.
• 54:50
  Beliefs that dysregulate us. If I believe there's not enough
• 54:53
  time in the day, I'm going to be rushing my head off, like,
• 54:57
  right. It's like, that also doesn't
• 54:59
  make any sense. You're going to lose that battle
• 55:01
  100% of the time. There's 24 hours and that's what
• 55:03
  you get, but there's not enough time.
• 55:05
  OK, but this is the time you have, so let's use it and carry
• 55:09
  on. And so when you shift those
• 55:11
  beliefs to more regulating beliefs, like even neutral, I
• 55:15
  like to go a little positive, like there's the right amount of
• 55:17
  time. How do I know?
• 55:18
  Because that's the time there is, but that might be a little
• 55:20
  too far for some people. So you could even say there is
• 55:23
  the time, there is now what do I do with it?
• 55:27
  Right. And now what?
• 55:28
  Right. I always love that.
• 55:29
  And now what it keeps that regulation is not about
• 55:32
  stagnancy. It's not about, you know,
• 55:34
  disengaging from life. It's not about even doing less.
• 55:37
  It's about having a steady cadence that's sustainable but
• 55:42
  productive and growth oriented. Like denote what's the word.
• 55:49
  It gives the energy of like moving forward, though not in a
• 55:53
  rushed way, but OK. What now?
• 55:55
  Right, moving. I'm not stagnant and stuck, but
• 55:58
  I'm not running so fast that I'm falling over.
• 56:02
  That is what we want. So if it's OK, I have the time.
• 56:04
  I have now, what was the first thing I'm going to do?
• 56:07
  All right, let's start with this.
• 56:09
  Now I'm moving, right versus Oh my God, there's so much to do
• 56:12
  and I have to get all done now because I'm behind.
• 56:14
  I need to catch up, but I can't do it all today.
• 56:16
  Now I've scrolled for three hours.
• 56:17
  Like it pushes you into overwhelm and paralysis when
• 56:21
  your beliefs are more regulated, which typically means aligned
• 56:25
  with reality instead of fighting reality.
• 56:28
  There's not enough time in the day is a fight with reality,
• 56:32
  right? Reality is there's 24 hours,
• 56:34
  you're saying no, that's wrong, and now we're fighting.
• 56:38
  That's going to be very dysregulating, right?
• 56:40
  Because you will never win. So it's very stressful.
• 56:43
  Or I'm behind. I need to catch up because what
• 56:45
  you're saying is I'm over here, but I should be over there.
• 56:48
  But you're over here. But I should be over there.
• 56:50
  OK, well, the reality is you're here.
• 56:51
  So what are we going to do from here?
• 56:53
  Right? Connecting with reality and
• 56:55
  moving along. But when you fight with reality
• 56:57
  and you have these beliefs that you're so tightly held onto
• 57:01
  because we think the fear, shame, urgency, guilt will
• 57:03
  motivate us. If I'm hard enough on myself, if
• 57:07
  I freak out enough about being far enough behind that I'll
• 57:10
  somehow propel me forward. I never had that experience.
• 57:15
  It just got me more stuck. So it's very counterintuitive
• 57:19
  this work because when you feel behind, the answer is slow down.
• 57:22
  That doesn't make any sense, but it is the answer.
• 57:24
  Do you find that their beliefs that we hold meaning their
• 57:27
  beliefs that we've created over time?
• 57:29
  Maybe I'm thinking even for you, if you had, you know, say 30
• 57:32
  years of living a certain way, you have all those beliefs that
• 57:35
  are the underbelly of that. Or do you think that they're
• 57:37
  usually things that we kind of took from others?
• 57:40
  Is it usually something that you find people are getting, for
• 57:43
  example, from parents and their upbringing?
• 57:45
  Or would you say that the experience of kind of having
• 57:48
  ADHD and not being regulated is like only like, for example, I'm
• 57:51
  thinking you're the person who has ADHD and you've got all
• 57:55
  these things to get done in a day and they're never getting
• 57:57
  done because you're dysregulated and you're finding you're
• 57:59
  frantic and you're not feeling that you're calm and centered to
• 58:02
  make movement in them. So that just further gives you
• 58:05
  more evidence. See lots of things to get done,
• 58:07
  not enough hours in the day. So I'm wondering, is the
• 58:10
  experience of ADHD, do you think part of what's kind of giving us
• 58:14
  the evidence to have those beliefs?
• 58:15
  Or is it usually something you see with clients of, you know,
• 58:18
  passed on from, say, friends or family or society or peers and
• 58:21
  that sort of thing? I think it's a little bit of
• 58:24
  both, plus your nervous system being in dysregulation.
• 58:27
  If my body thinks I'm in danger, my thoughts are going to be very
• 58:31
  fearful, right? The nerve, the roots of the
• 58:35
  tree, the nervous system dysregulation grows the trunk of
• 58:39
  the tree, which is the beliefs and the thoughts, right?
• 58:42
  It's all connected. So it's, you know, because your
• 58:46
  system is in fight or flight, your thoughts are going to be
• 58:49
  based in fear and protection, not in, you know, peace and
• 58:53
  possibility. It's like that's just natural.
• 58:58
  ADC is very hereditary. So you're very, if you have ADC,
• 59:01
  you're very likely to have a parent who has ADHD who then
• 59:04
  gave you their dysregulated beliefs.
• 59:06
  So you got it from the outside and the inside.
• 59:09
  And then like you said, because you are dysregulated, you are in
• 59:13
  the extreme. So you're saying, see, look,
• 59:15
  this is the way it is. Look, I can't get anything done.
• 59:18
  Look, I can't be consistent. Look, I have to push because
• 59:21
  then I will crash. So it's kind of like coming at
• 59:23
  you from every angle. We had no hope of like of
• 59:27
  challenging any of that because it felt so real and true and
• 59:30
  coming at us from every angle. But this, I only work with
• 59:33
  adults because as adults, we can kind of sit and go, wait a
• 59:37
  minute, maybe that's not true because it hasn't worked for 35
• 59:42
  years. And I have, you know, enough
• 59:44
  autonomy and enough power in my life as the grown up to maybe
• 59:49
  make different decisions and believe, believe new things
• 59:52
  because I'm the, you know, typically the adults in the room
• 59:55
  now, there isn't a parent coming to get me in trouble.
• 59:57
  So I don't have to feel like I'm just waiting to, you know, get a
• 1:00:02
  slap on the wrist anymore. And so it's a really good
• 1:00:04
  opportunity in adulthood to rewrite some of those stories,
• 1:00:07
  get new beliefs going. And it's like a.
• 1:00:10
  Dominoes, once you're more regulated, your thoughts and
• 1:00:12
  beliefs will be more naturally regulated because your system
• 1:00:15
  is. And when your thoughts are more
• 1:00:16
  regulated because you're working on them, that will calm your
• 1:00:18
  nervous system and it really is like effects each other.
• 1:00:22
  Got it. OK.
• 1:00:23
  And now Step 3 or shall I say like Level 3 is really when the
• 1:00:29
  all or nothing comes in, which is you mentioned earlier that
• 1:00:32
  the kind of classic example you have, which is like either the
• 1:00:36
  entire house is clean or it's a disaster or like I'm putting all
• 1:00:40
  the laundry away or I'm not going to touch it until I have
• 1:00:43
  capacity to do so. And I actually will say you
• 1:00:47
  mentioned this on one of our very, very like early, you know,
• 1:00:49
  connection calls that we had together.
• 1:00:51
  And I remember going after that call and looking at my laundry
• 1:00:55
  there was like. 4 heaping back. 4 heaping mounds of it and I was
• 1:00:59
  like Sunday, Sunday, okay, on Sunday because there's nothing
• 1:01:01
  ever usually happening on Sundays.
• 1:01:03
  And then Sunday would come and I thought, I don't want to
• 1:01:05
  freaking do that laundry. So it's so interesting because
• 1:01:08
  it was months ago and now you had said something in a call and
• 1:01:12
  you were like, yeah, just do a little bit each day.
• 1:01:14
  And I thought that's not extreme enough for me.
• 1:01:16
  Like, I'm either it's a complete disaster.
• 1:01:18
  And I cleaned it all up. And I get that dopamine hit if
• 1:01:20
  it's all gone now. And it sounds so simple.
• 1:01:23
  I know for someone listening, you're like, OK, like you're
• 1:01:25
  doing laundry everyday. Like big what?
• 1:01:26
  But it was really a big change because I was like, I'm talking
• 1:01:30
  for 30 years. I was the person who had the
• 1:01:33
  laundry in the corner. You had that chair in your room
• 1:01:36
  that had all those sweaters on it.
• 1:01:37
  Like I was living that life for years and years and years.
• 1:01:40
  And then now I'm in this routine now where I'm like every day I'm
• 1:01:43
  like, is there laundry to be done?
• 1:01:44
  Is there laundry to be done? And it's just like a check box.
• 1:01:46
  I check in every day and I'm like, oh, maybe not today, but
• 1:01:49
  I'll do it tomorrow. And I've never in my entire life
• 1:01:51
  been at that place. But that was really because of
• 1:01:54
  the note and the things that you've shared around the all or
• 1:01:56
  nothing thinking. And again, to your point, I
• 1:02:00
  never had an awareness of it and because I didn't, I didn't
• 1:02:03
  really really see a cycle like I just thought I can't be
• 1:02:07
  consistent and I'm a slob is kind of again like the labels
• 1:02:10
  that I took from that. But then when you gave the all
• 1:02:13
  or nothing thinking and you brought that to an awareness,
• 1:02:15
  just that alone changed everything for me because I
• 1:02:19
  realized how many buckets it was all or nothing.
• 1:02:21
  I would either eat super healthy or I'd eat garbage and it would
• 1:02:24
  be like there's nothing in between where like all the
• 1:02:27
  laundry is done or none is done. So all or nothing thinking is
• 1:02:30
  your tier 3. And so I would love for you to
• 1:02:32
  unpack what is all or nothing thinking and how does that
• 1:02:35
  present and how do we shift into some more flexible thinking or
• 1:02:38
  flexible living? So kind of with my approach, so
• 1:02:41
  we have the nervous system regulation, we have the thought
• 1:02:43
  and belief regulation, and then we have the behavior regulation,
• 1:02:46
  which, you know, I have come to realize all or nothing thinking
• 1:02:49
  fits in that because when we think that way, we behave that
• 1:02:52
  way. So it's really about how we're
• 1:02:54
  acting. So like you said, you're acting
• 1:02:56
  your behavior was do all the laundry, don't do any of the
• 1:03:00
  laundry because of that way of thinking.
• 1:03:02
  So when we want to work on behavior, what we want to look
• 1:03:04
  at is behavior that's in the extremes.
• 1:03:06
  That is dysregulated behavior, meaning, you know, yeah,
• 1:03:10
  cleaning every single thing and washing the baseboards or not
• 1:03:14
  even going to pick up the towel off the floor.
• 1:03:16
  Like we are literally so wild and so extreme even in our
• 1:03:20
  perception of ourselves is like, I'm amazing and perfect and
• 1:03:24
  should be a rock star and have so much potential.
• 1:03:26
  Also, I'm a piece of shit that, you know, can't brush my teeth
• 1:03:30
  every day. Like we're so extreme in the way
• 1:03:33
  we think and therefore in the way we behave and how we act.
• 1:03:36
  And the extremes show where the dysregulation is regulation.
• 1:03:40
  The definition of regulation is the rate or speed at which a
• 1:03:44
  machine functions properly. So meaning we do not function
• 1:03:48
  well in all, we do not function well in nothing.
• 1:03:50
  We function well in balance and sustainability.
• 1:03:53
  Like your example of. I'm sure that feels so much
• 1:03:55
  better, right? To not have a huge mountain to
• 1:03:59
  deal with once every two weeks. It's like a little bit everyday.
• 1:04:01
  We actually function best in regulated balanced behavior.
• 1:04:05
  So that may be chipping away at cleaning the house a little bit
• 1:04:09
  few times a week instead of like, OK, Sunday you got your
• 1:04:13
  vacuum in your mop. Like I'm going to climb this
• 1:04:14
  mountain. Like we actually don't thrive in
• 1:04:17
  that. We may think we do, but we
• 1:04:18
  don't. So with behavior, we want to see
• 1:04:22
  all or nothing. Where am I, like you said with
• 1:04:24
  food. I was in restrict binge cycle
• 1:04:26
  for 10 years which is why I healed my relationship with food
• 1:04:30
  and actually learned about kind of regulation, which I didn't
• 1:04:34
  have that word for it at the time, but I was like literally
• 1:04:38
  eating chicken and broccoli or going to the gas station, buying
• 1:04:41
  3 bags of chip and chips and binging them in my room.
• 1:04:43
  Like those were the two options and I.
• 1:04:46
  Thought I had a food. Problem.
• 1:04:48
  I thought I was addicted to food.
• 1:04:50
  I'm like. What's your Probably just got to
• 1:04:52
  restrict more Jenna. You're out of control.
• 1:04:54
  Oh my God. It turns out if you eat
• 1:04:57
  regularly and normally you won't binge.
• 1:04:59
  And my binging stopped within literally I don't quite it's
• 1:05:03
  like over 10 years ago now. I'm sure it's like stopped
• 1:05:07
  within two weeks and I never binged again.
• 1:05:09
  Like you couldn't pay me now to binge.
• 1:05:11
  Like, I physically can't have that physical yeah, experience
• 1:05:15
  again because my body is chill, it's neutral, it's balanced.
• 1:05:19
  I'm, you know, flexible thinking with food healed my relationship
• 1:05:23
  with food permanently. The same with changing our
• 1:05:27
  behavior, with how we clean, how we tackle the home, how we do
• 1:05:31
  everything. If we create new balanced
• 1:05:35
  approaches and beliefs and regulate our nervous system.
• 1:05:40
  Now all these like swinging from side to side.
• 1:05:44
  Is stopped. And I think once you see it, you
• 1:05:47
  can Unsee it. And I do suspect even for you
• 1:05:49
  that will be a permanent change. Yeah, you're going to have days
• 1:05:52
  when you're like, oh, I didn't get to it for a while so it
• 1:05:53
  piled up. But it won't be that same like
• 1:05:55
  swinging from extremes with no control like.
• 1:05:59
  And that's what's so cool about this work is like once you see
• 1:06:02
  it, you can't Unsee it. Once you know the truth, you
• 1:06:04
  can't unknown it. And then now you're just aware
• 1:06:07
  of yourself and you understand what you need to do and you
• 1:06:09
  understand where you thrive. And like my you know, red light
• 1:06:12
  example doesn't mean perfection. But also I don't have a need for
• 1:06:18
  perfection. I also like I'm chill.
• 1:06:21
  Like whether I get this regulated on a light or not, I'm
• 1:06:24
  fine. And so that's also a different
• 1:06:26
  thing is like, no, you maybe I don't even do every single thing
• 1:06:31
  perfectly in my entrepreneurship journey, for example, but I
• 1:06:36
  don't need to like, so there's also that softening of like that
• 1:06:40
  desperation of being rigid and perfect that goes away as well.
• 1:06:44
  It's kind of like I can roll with the punches and just do my
• 1:06:47
  best. And I also feel good about that.
• 1:06:48
  So like it so changes everything.
• 1:06:51
  Well, I know you, you had, you know, at one point kind of
• 1:06:54
  noticed like the ADHD flow approach.
• 1:06:56
  Some people have seen you've mentioned it or nodded to in
• 1:06:58
  your content before in your marketing, and it really does
• 1:07:02
  for anyone who's new to it, it does feel like that.
• 1:07:05
  You feel like you're just like there's, it's such a great sound
• 1:07:09
  because there's no better way to describe it.
• 1:07:12
  When you're in flow, you're like you're cleaning, you're just
• 1:07:16
  cleaning your house, but you're not cleaning it frantically.
• 1:07:18
  You're just like, yeah, so I'm just going to fold the towels.
• 1:07:21
  Like you're just, you're calm, but you're consistent.
• 1:07:25
  And I think that that's, it's just a such a, it's a weird
• 1:07:28
  thing to explain, but I like again, in the laundry example,
• 1:07:33
  it's the same environment, it's the same situation.
• 1:07:35
  It's an entirely different experience.
• 1:07:38
  And I think that that's the, the basis of these principles is
• 1:07:41
  like, it's not a matter of the fact that all your circumstances
• 1:07:44
  that used to be there when you were struggling or just going to
• 1:07:47
  disappear. Like the chips are still there,
• 1:07:49
  the broccoli still there. But now you're like, wait a
• 1:07:52
  second, it could be instead of one or the other, I could have
• 1:07:54
  broccoli and then have like 1 serving of chips tonight.
• 1:07:57
  And I get the best of both worlds, right?
• 1:07:59
  So I think it's the same environment, just our experience
• 1:08:02
  of it gets so adjusted that the last kind of two that you
• 1:08:06
  usually note to are boundaries. And you talk a lot about the
• 1:08:11
  impact of people pleasing in people with ADHD.
• 1:08:15
  How does people pleasing or boundaries kind of correlate to
• 1:08:20
  our experience of ADHD or dysregulation?
• 1:08:23
  Totally. So that would be the fight
• 1:08:24
  flight, freeze fawn. That's the fawn is, you know how
• 1:08:29
  that relates to being an imminent life threatening danger
• 1:08:31
  is like, I'm going to appease this aggressor so that I can get
• 1:08:35
  out of this alive, right? That's the primal thing.
• 1:08:38
  So that's what we were doing. Oh my God, I feel unsafe.
• 1:08:41
  So I got to make everyone happy. I got to do everything for
• 1:08:43
  everyone else, left my own happiness and enjoyment of life.
• 1:08:47
  As long as everyone else is good, I'll be safe.
• 1:08:50
  So it's not about being nice. It's not about being of service.
• 1:08:53
  We can also have those qualities as well.
• 1:08:55
  But that compulsive needs, but everyone else's needs first.
• 1:08:59
  That inability to honor yourself or put yourself first in any
• 1:09:02
  situation ever is a defense mechanism because we're in fight
• 1:09:06
  or flight. So when you do the nervous
• 1:09:08
  system regulation, you'll naturally feel less desperate to
• 1:09:12
  make everyone happy and then make everyone like you and worry
• 1:09:14
  what everyone thinks and be so sensitive to criticism, right?
• 1:09:18
  Rejection sensitivity dysphoria is something very common in ADHD
• 1:09:22
  that it's like any perceived criticism and we have such a big
• 1:09:25
  reaction to it because we feel we're going to get kicked out of
• 1:09:29
  the tribe and die. Like it's that primal, right?
• 1:09:32
  That's why it's so disproportionate because it's
• 1:09:35
  like, wow, my boss gave me one bit of feedback and now I'm
• 1:09:37
  like, I'm quitting. I'm failing.
• 1:09:41
  It's like, no, you're fine. So when you do the nervous
• 1:09:43
  system regulation, that will naturally dissipate, But then
• 1:09:46
  you can also work on the beliefs about that.
• 1:09:50
  It's like, is that true? Do you really need to be putting
• 1:09:53
  everyone else's needs and saying yes to everything?
• 1:09:55
  What if you said no? What if you, you know, put those
• 1:09:58
  boundaries up? And then when people do that,
• 1:10:00
  they realize the evidence is like, no one really cares.
• 1:10:02
  They're just like, oh, OK, I'll ask someone else.
• 1:10:04
  Like it's not that big of a deal, but when you're in fight
• 1:10:08
  or flight, it feels like life or death.
• 1:10:09
  Maybe not consciously. You might not be like, I'm going
• 1:10:11
  to die if I don't make Susie happy.
• 1:10:15
  No, but you're primarily thinking that, which is why it's
• 1:10:17
  so uncomfortable to say no. It's so uncomfortable to put up
• 1:10:20
  boundaries. So when you do this work, that
• 1:10:23
  fond peace will calm down, which is so freeing because honestly,
• 1:10:29
  all that people pleasing, no one cares really.
• 1:10:32
  Like if you're like the person who is saying no to that thing
• 1:10:37
  that used to say yes to, yeah, that first thing might be like,
• 1:10:39
  what? People are so worried about
• 1:10:41
  themselves. Like all this energy we're
• 1:10:42
  putting into making everyone happy is only exhausting us and
• 1:10:46
  not really making much of a difference externally.
• 1:10:49
  So we want to put our energy where it's going to make a
• 1:10:51
  difference. And so having boundaries and not
• 1:10:54
  people pleasing is going to really preserve a lot of your
• 1:10:57
  energy for what matters. And it makes me also think that
• 1:11:01
  maybe part of the the people pleasing is also the fact that
• 1:11:04
  I'm thinking if someone's been dysregulated and they know the
• 1:11:08
  feeling of that, they know the impact of that, whether
• 1:11:10
  conscious or not, they just know the way they've been living life
• 1:11:13
  and they see this opportunity, a question, a decision, an
• 1:11:17
  invitation to do something. And really, if I say no to this,
• 1:11:21
  this has the ability to make me dysregulated, which means all of
• 1:11:24
  this reality, and you don't have the tools yet to maybe overcome
• 1:11:27
  that. You're like, yeah, yeah, sure,
• 1:11:28
  I'll do it. Because you just don't want to
• 1:11:30
  kind of like dive deeper into that cycle.
• 1:11:32
  So that makes a ton of sense. You also mentioned which is kind
• 1:11:35
  of the the last tier or like tier 5, which is urgency and
• 1:11:40
  avoidance. So we either avoid, we panic, or
• 1:11:43
  we kind of do both, which you notice obviously absolutely
• 1:11:46
  exhausting. So how does the cycle of like,
• 1:11:49
  avoidance and urgency play into things for someone who is
• 1:11:53
  navigating ADHD? So we can see that kind of in
• 1:11:55
  the behavior again, right? I'm either not doing it at all,
• 1:12:00
  like with your laundry, I'm either not touching one shirt or
• 1:12:04
  I'm climbing the whole mountain and getting the whole thing done
• 1:12:06
  right. So extremes, I'm either avoiding
• 1:12:09
  it until, Oh my God, I have to do it today because I have no
• 1:12:11
  clothes, right? Avoidance and urgency.
• 1:12:13
  So we see that in the extremes, when you are regulated, you are
• 1:12:17
  naturally going to be more balanced, more logical, and
• 1:12:20
  you're going to see that that makes no sense whatsoever,
• 1:12:23
  right? Dysregulation is very illogical.
• 1:12:26
  It's reactive, it's fear fueled. It's like a knee jerk reaction.
• 1:12:31
  Inherently a knee jerk reaction is not smart.
• 1:12:33
  It's not thoughtful, it's not proportional to the situation.
• 1:12:37
  It's like once when I was grabbed downtown, I did swing my
• 1:12:42
  elbow sword. I really went fuck you.
• 1:12:45
  Like an animal like that makes sense when you're in danger.
• 1:12:48
  That does not make sense. That level of a reaction right
• 1:12:52
  is not it wasn't logical. I didn't think, wow, someone's
• 1:12:56
  grabbing me right it. Wasn't it probably wasn't even
• 1:12:58
  that scary of a situation, but it was weird and I would.
• 1:13:01
  So I reacted big without thinking.
• 1:13:03
  That's what we're doing all the time when we're dysregulated.
• 1:13:06
  So we're just going, oh, I'm going to avoid that laundry
• 1:13:09
  because it feels weird to look at it and I feel uncomfortable
• 1:13:11
  and dysregulated about it. Oh my God, I have no clean
• 1:13:14
  clothes. Oh my God, I got it.
• 1:13:15
  This is not logical. It does not make.
• 1:13:17
  Sense to avoid something until you're panicking about it.
• 1:13:20
  And we know that when we sit down and think clearly.
• 1:13:23
  But when you're just living your life in this rush dysregulated
• 1:13:26
  way, you're simply in knee jerk reaction mode all the time.
• 1:13:30
  So we want to observe that, at least be aware of it when you're
• 1:13:33
  because you're not going to make this go away in a day.
• 1:13:36
  So while you're in it, you need to go.
• 1:13:38
  I see, I'm avoiding that. OK, You got to face the facts
• 1:13:43
  first. You can't just be flinging your
• 1:13:45
  knees around and not being aware of what's going on.
• 1:13:48
  So it's like, OK, I'm still not doing the thing that makes
• 1:13:50
  sense. I get that, but I'm at least
• 1:13:52
  seeing it now. I'm avoiding that.
• 1:13:54
  And then, you know, when you fling back into urgency, we can
• 1:13:57
  be aware of that. So just like everything else,
• 1:14:01
  the first step there is awareness and then the second
• 1:14:04
  step is interruption. So say you wanted to work on
• 1:14:07
  your laundry, you would walk by your laundry room.
• 1:14:11
  Oh, I'm avoiding that. It's piling up.
• 1:14:14
  I see. OK.
• 1:14:16
  And instead of closing the door, I'm going to open the door and
• 1:14:19
  go stand in there for a minute. I'm facing, it's like, pretty
• 1:14:22
  much like exposure therapy. I, I am not in the function of a
• 1:14:25
  therapist in my groups or in my program, but that's kind of the
• 1:14:29
  same principle, right? Is, oh, let me go be with the
• 1:14:33
  thing I'm avoiding and show myself it's not a bear that's
• 1:14:36
  going to kill me, right? Because that's what your system
• 1:14:39
  is thinking it is. OK, there's a lot of clothes in
• 1:14:42
  here, right? And then if you have the tools
• 1:14:46
  of, you know, flexible thinking, all right, I'm going to put one
• 1:14:48
  loaded. I know there's 10 loads in here.
• 1:14:50
  Probably I'm just going to do 1 today.
• 1:14:52
  Let me chip away. Let's see, starting to practice
• 1:14:55
  a different type of behavior. Long story short, if you get
• 1:14:58
  that nervous system regulated, you get those behaviors out of
• 1:15:02
  the extremes and you work on your thinking now you are
• 1:15:05
  someone who will naturally live more in that middle ground and
• 1:15:09
  do to do to do away. And then you'll have your blips,
• 1:15:12
  but you'll know what to do with it.
• 1:15:13
  You know how to come back and carry on and that results in
• 1:15:18
  more consistent action in the direction you want to go.
• 1:15:20
  Being less exhausted and enjoying this life, which
• 1:15:23
  honestly that's my main focus for clients is like, you could
• 1:15:29
  be having fun right now and you're miserable.
• 1:15:31
  It's not about the situation, it's about the state you're in.
• 1:15:34
  So I personally wasn't unwilling to like.
• 1:15:37
  Believe that we're just here to check off the To Do List until
• 1:15:40
  we die. So I'm like, Nope, not here for
• 1:15:44
  it. And that's kind of how we came
• 1:15:47
  to this approach. Well, I'm wondering like it
• 1:15:49
  instantly makes me wonder, do you think that there's a safety
• 1:15:53
  in keeping the dysregulation because.
• 1:15:57
  Familiarity is safety. Your brain, and we know this,
• 1:16:02
  right? Your brain will attract the same
• 1:16:05
  relationship over and over and over again, even if it's
• 1:16:07
  incredibly toxic. Because the familiar is what
• 1:16:09
  feels safe, right? Even not consciously.
• 1:16:12
  You may not consciously know you're doing it, but it's like,
• 1:16:15
  oh, I go to what's familiar, even if it's hell, because it
• 1:16:18
  feels safer than the alternative.
• 1:16:20
  At least I didn't die Great because that's the system is so
• 1:16:23
  primal in that way. It thinks in life or death.
• 1:16:25
  It doesn't think in like happiness and flexibility and
• 1:16:28
  like what's the best? It thinks in am I going to live?
• 1:16:31
  OK, well, let's go with this because that's what I'm used to.
• 1:16:34
  So your system is used to the extremes.
• 1:16:37
  It's used to flinging from all to nothing.
• 1:16:39
  It's used to being dysregulated. You haven't died yet, so this
• 1:16:44
  must be OK, right? Like, let's just stay here.
• 1:16:46
  You'll be all right. You'll be.
• 1:16:47
  All right, let's just stay here because I don't know what that
• 1:16:49
  whole regulation thing's going to be like that could kill us.
• 1:16:52
  Well, that's The thing is like even when you had mentioned like
• 1:16:54
  do a little, I just tell people do a little bit each day.
• 1:16:56
  And I thought, huh, because I thought that's just not that's
• 1:17:00
  not a life I've ever known. That's not something like a chip
• 1:17:03
  away at it upbringing wise was not something talked about.
• 1:17:07
  You don't chip away at it. It's like, you know what?
• 1:17:09
  We got to get it all done. Like it was always again, the
• 1:17:11
  beliefs, the values were there. The all of nothing thinking was
• 1:17:14
  there. And then literally that exact
• 1:17:17
  example, my laundry room was busting at the seams with stuff
• 1:17:20
  and I remember thinking, OK, well, there's no way I'm getting
• 1:17:23
  this all done today. But I thought, whatever, I'll
• 1:17:25
  throw in one load. And at the time I did think it
• 1:17:29
  was silly. I thought, what is this?
• 1:17:31
  Like this feels so silly to do one load like you're saying out
• 1:17:34
  of 10 because this is really not going to make much progress.
• 1:17:38
  But what I take from what you teach is like there's this
• 1:17:41
  really, and I'm not sure from like a psychological
• 1:17:43
  perspective, there might be a term for this, but you do the
• 1:17:48
  thing and you've like to your point, you might be like this
• 1:17:51
  feels uncomfortable. This is not what I always do.
• 1:17:52
  I always do all the laundry on Sundays and I have this misery
• 1:17:55
  that I live in and it's what I've always known.
• 1:17:57
  Like you just kind of have this cycle, this identity, this
• 1:17:59
  routine, then you switch that up, you take an action after you
• 1:18:04
  have the awareness. And then what I found happened
• 1:18:06
  was I had this like little dopamine hit and I thought, oh,
• 1:18:09
  this is kind of nice, right? Like I had clothes to wear and I
• 1:18:12
  had none of the urgency. By Sunday I had like 6 loads
• 1:18:16
  done and I thought so like Sunday started to feel lighter
• 1:18:22
  and then it was like, I'm curious how I could maintain
• 1:18:24
  this. So I thought I'd just try it for
• 1:18:26
  a couple more days and then that turned into a couple weeks.
• 1:18:28
  That's turned into a couple months now.
• 1:18:30
  Granted, I'm just gonna be really honest.
• 1:18:32
  This is mainly only in the laundry bucket for right now,
• 1:18:34
  hey? But that's progress.
• 1:18:35
  That's progress. Like really cool.
• 1:18:37
  Yeah, but it's, I think such a, a testament to what you do.
• 1:18:41
  And I, I wanna, I guess, put a bow on this for everybody 'cause
• 1:18:45
  I also wanna be fair and like setting expectations.
• 1:18:47
  You talk a lot about the fact that, like, there's a lot of
• 1:18:50
  progress you can make quickly, but it's also not like this
• 1:18:54
  magic pill where you just like, great, like I have this, you
• 1:18:58
  know, 5 steps and boom, all of the things that you once knew
• 1:19:01
  are now done. And so if someone's listening
• 1:19:03
  today and they feel like, OK, like I definitely, you know,
• 1:19:06
  maybe in the earlier portion feel like I feel really seen in
• 1:19:09
  the symptoms of the signs that are kind of coming up.
• 1:19:12
  I do feel like I am making some of those mistakes of the urgency
• 1:19:16
  of the all or nothing thinking. And now I kind of have these
• 1:19:18
  five, you know, principles to dive into.
• 1:19:23
  How long or what kind of journey does it look like for someone to
• 1:19:27
  maybe be like, you know, Jenna, before all of this clarity to
• 1:19:31
  the way that you are now and kind of having this harmony that
• 1:19:34
  you have now? I think understanding in stages
• 1:19:37
  is really valuable. Just as you were talking, I was
• 1:19:39
  like. What's a good analogy?
• 1:19:40
  It's almost like your shoulders out of the socket and yeah, you
• 1:19:43
  can put it back in and that's instant relief.
• 1:19:45
  But it's going to take a long time for it to heal.
• 1:19:47
  You can't go and like play baseball tomorrow like you then
• 1:19:51
  you have to like have a sling. It's gonna heal.
• 1:19:53
  So there is instant relief like I have I'm halfway done our
• 1:19:57
  current set of groups. And I've had a lot of great
• 1:20:00
  testimonials just like of people talking on the calls of like,
• 1:20:03
  oh, my God, this has been transformative.
• 1:20:04
  Like I was skeptical but Oh my God I've seen such growth.
• 1:20:09
  But this is a lifelong endeavor like this is how I will live and
• 1:20:13
  this is how I will think for the rest of my life.
• 1:20:14
  Not in a like wow, I have to really, you know, always be
• 1:20:17
  taking classes and be so intense about it.
• 1:20:20
  But this is how I will think for the rest of my life and I will
• 1:20:23
  get this regulated and I will re regulate and I will carry on.
• 1:20:26
  So you get some instant relief being aware and making those
• 1:20:30
  first shifts, but you will get knocked off, you know, and I
• 1:20:34
  have clients right now who are like, Oh my God, I was doing so
• 1:20:36
  good and I'm struggling this week.
• 1:20:37
  I'm like, dude, this is like, let's talk about the next 20
• 1:20:40
  years, not these two months. Like this is a long term
• 1:20:44
  endeavor. But you do get instant results
• 1:20:48
  to a degree. So there's enough, which I think
• 1:20:51
  is like such a gift because it's enough of a glimmer to like
• 1:20:54
  motivate you to keep going. But it's not all, you know, like
• 1:20:58
  wrapped up in a bell. Bye.
• 1:20:59
  Like I do, even when people are starting with my program, which
• 1:21:04
  is only like 3 months, I do say like, think about this as like
• 1:21:08
  giving yourself the rest of the year to really do this work.
• 1:21:11
  Like this is not like then you're going to be quite, quite
• 1:21:14
  solid. And then you'll just naturally
• 1:21:16
  think this way and you'll use your tools and you'll, you know,
• 1:21:18
  interrupt yourself when you're just regulated and stuff.
• 1:21:21
  But it will come much more naturally.
• 1:21:23
  But you need this is not, you know, one weekend intensive and
• 1:21:27
  you're good to go. Like it's more of a again, one
• 1:21:31
  week intense of all or nothing. OK, that's gonna let's go like 8
• 1:21:35
  hours a day and hammer it up. No little bits overtime, nothing
• 1:21:40
  crazy. You know, even in the work I do
• 1:21:43
  on our sessions is like the quote UN quote.
• 1:21:45
  Homework is small each week, but you're building something
• 1:21:50
  foundational and changing something overtime.
• 1:21:53
  And that's kind of how you do the work is the work itself as
• 1:21:56
  well. Slow and steady, but you're
• 1:21:58
  going to try and have transformation and it will be
• 1:22:01
  lifelong as long as you don't completely disengage with it.
• 1:22:05
  And I think like for me, when, when I first heard the slow and
• 1:22:09
  steady or the OR the idea of chip away, I physically felt
• 1:22:14
  that in my nervous system. I was like, I want the
• 1:22:16
  intensive. I want to walk in with ADHD and
• 1:22:19
  leave without it. Like I'm just going to drop it
• 1:22:20
  here. And that originally that
• 1:22:23
  response to me was the awareness that there was work to be done.
• 1:22:27
  So I also just want to like, I guess break the 4th wall.
• 1:22:29
  If anyone just listen to that idea of slow and steady,
• 1:22:34
  consistent integration, routine overtime, building on of habits
• 1:22:38
  and lifestyle. And you're like, but I don't
• 1:22:40
  want that. I want like overnight.
• 1:22:41
  I don't deal with this anymore. If that's the instant thought or
• 1:22:44
  feeling that came up for you, that is an indicator slide into
• 1:22:48
  Jenna's DMS or website or whatever.
• 1:22:51
  Because I think again, it goes back to the whole idea exactly
• 1:22:54
  as you're saying of like, I'd love to do an intensive, but
• 1:22:56
  that's basically the basis of all or nothing thinking of.
• 1:22:59
  I don't, I have it right now and I don't want it.
• 1:23:01
  So the other extreme. OK, so obviously today we
• 1:23:04
  covered so much and to be totally honest, you guys, this
• 1:23:07
  is like a drop in the bucket of all of the the content and the
• 1:23:11
  value and all the information that's available that you can
• 1:23:14
  consume from her podcast. All the things if someone wants
• 1:23:17
  to dive more into, you know, your frameworks, your
• 1:23:20
  principles, or maybe listening today realize is that you know,
• 1:23:23
  their ADHD has gotten to a place where they recognize today,
• 1:23:28
  yeah, I do need to kind of have a new approach or do something a
• 1:23:31
  little bit different with it. Where is the best place for them
• 1:23:33
  to kind of learn more and get some more insight and
• 1:23:35
  information from you? Yeah, so I am on Tiktok and
• 1:23:38
  Instagram at ADHD with Jenna Free.
• 1:23:41
  I have a free guide that people can download.
• 1:23:43
  I'm sure that'll be in the show notes.
• 1:23:45
  Yeah, that's APDF. And a video of me walking you
• 1:23:48
  through it just does like some first steps of understanding the
• 1:23:51
  concepts and actually taking action.
• 1:23:54
  And then I have a podcast, ADHD with Jenna Free and my program,
• 1:23:57
  ADHD Groups, it opens every once in a while.
• 1:24:01
  So that is the way to really do the work with me.
• 1:24:03
  A-Z, where I hold your hand, we really talk through all the
• 1:24:06
  barriers that are it's going to come up like Kate said, it's
• 1:24:08
  like they're going to have feelings that this regulation is
• 1:24:12
  going to resist, right? This work.
• 1:24:14
  But that's why we do it. That's why I do it more in live
• 1:24:17
  coaching, not a course or something like that, because you
• 1:24:19
  need the like hand holding and you need the what about this,
• 1:24:22
  but what about that? I'm scared about this.
• 1:24:24
  Like you need to work through all that to kind of get to that
• 1:24:27
  promised land, if you will. Yeah.
• 1:24:29
  And I will say a couple things. Her free resource, I highly,
• 1:24:32
  highly recommend go getting a copy of that because I don't
• 1:24:35
  know about you, but I'm like a very visual person and the
• 1:24:38
  visual of kind of what we talked about today will be in there and
• 1:24:42
  kind of dove into deeper. So if you're a visual learner,
• 1:24:45
  highly recommend that's going to kind of help to take what we
• 1:24:48
  took today and make it into a picture for you.
• 1:24:49
  And the thing that I often found really interesting when you
• 1:24:51
  mentioned your groups was the fact that there wasn't like
• 1:24:53
  these pre recorded masses of videos.
• 1:24:57
  And I think also for anybody who, like myself, has maybe at
• 1:25:01
  times had certain things you want to work on and you're just
• 1:25:04
  like hoarding information. You'll remember that at the
• 1:25:08
  beginning of today. Jenna talked about the aspects
• 1:25:10
  that ADHD is a lot about integration.
• 1:25:12
  And so I also just wanted to kind of connect those two pieces
• 1:25:15
  because I think it's really important if you're somebody
• 1:25:17
  who's saving all the Tik Toks and you're listening maybe even
• 1:25:21
  to the podcast and you're like, I have all this information and
• 1:25:23
  I'm consuming. But even with that consumption,
• 1:25:26
  your feeling of ADHD within your life still remains the same.
• 1:25:29
  It could also be a really good invitation for some integration
• 1:25:33
  work, not just the information work that you've been doing thus
• 1:25:36
  far. So thank you so much for sharing
• 1:25:37
  that. We definitely will have all the
• 1:25:38
  information and the ambitious as well as the show notes below.
• 1:25:42
  Jenna, thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:25:43
  I know we probably could have doubt.
• 1:25:45
  There's so many side side conversations we could have gone
• 1:25:48
  into, but thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:25:50
  Thank you so much. It was awesome.
• 1:25:53
  So you guys, obviously, of course, we will see you on the
• 1:25:56
  next episode. And, as always, stay ambitious.