Latest / The Fourcast / ‘Nigel Farage isn’t your average posh boy’ - Nadine Dorries

Transcript

‘Nigel Farage isn’t your average posh boy’ - Nadine Dorries · The Fourcast

0:00
The thing I find about Nigel refreshing is that he will have
0:02
the robust conversation. With you so he's not your
0:04
average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint of milk
0:07
to use your. Words.
0:08
No, no he isn't. And I do find that refreshing
0:10
do. You think there will be more
0:11
defections from the Tories? Too.
0:13
Oh yeah, I know, I know. There will be.
0:15
No, there will. Be how many rough?
0:17
Bigger names than me. Let's talk about why reformers
0:20
introduced this policy on immigration, because Nigel
0:23
Farage says that he's dealing with what he calls the Boris
0:26
wave. I accept that 4.2 million people
0:28
was way, way too big a number, right?
0:31
So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take that control as.
0:34
No, it was because we have controlled of our borders that
0:38
we were able. To open the borders and let
0:40
everybody in. Hello and welcome to the
0:46
forecast. Nadine Dorries was once former
0:48
Prime Minister Boris Johnson's closest ally.
0:51
But now she's defected to Reform UK, the party leading the polls
0:55
under Nigel Farage. She insists Farage is the only
0:58
one to deliver change, but are his policies workable?
1:01
And how does she respond to her new leaders attacks on her
1:04
former boss? She joins me now for her first
1:06
sit down interview since defecting.
1:09
Nadine Doris Keir Starmer said this week that Nigel Farage was
1:12
a snake oil merchant who doesn't like Britain.
1:15
Are you getting any kind of buyer's remorse for defecting?
1:18
Absolutely not. In fact, it was the attacks from
1:22
the stage and the platform at the Labour conference, if
1:25
anything, that would make myself and others more more convinced
1:31
about the fact that we've done the right thing and I.
1:33
Also joining a party with racist politics.
1:35
Oh, it's not racist, Cathy. The the party is not racist
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anyway and I find it hugely insulting.
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I've been in politics for 20 years in Westminster, 25 in
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total. I find it huge insulting that
1:49
anybody would describe someone who's an intelligent person
1:53
who's been involved in politics as a racist or no.
1:56
No, they're not. To be clear, they're
1:58
specifically not describing Nigel Farage himself as racist.
2:01
And the. Politics are not but the but
2:02
the. Policy of deporting 10s of
2:04
thousands of people who've made their homes here for the simple
2:08
fact that they're not British. You can understand why Keir
2:11
Starmer might describe that as racist.
2:14
It's not racist to want to protect our borders, to want to
2:18
deport those people who are illegally here.
2:21
But that's not he's not just wanting to deport the people who
2:24
are illegally here, he's talking about scrapping indefinite right
2:28
to remain and so therefore people who have made their homes
2:31
here. I am very sure that as we move
2:34
toward the 3 1/2 years, towards the general election, there will
2:38
be clarity around the skills that are required that need to
2:42
remain in terms of legal migration now, legal migration
2:46
we will still need to have moving forward.
2:49
That and you need it for the NHS for.
2:51
Example, we need to have a former nurse, I would say you
2:53
know who trained with a my my my peers when I was nursing were
2:58
Filipinos, so you know it will Philippine nurses were as equal
3:03
as British. They'll be deported under this
3:06
policy because they would not be earning enough.
3:08
To say not reform are not going to introduce policies that would
3:11
leave our NHS and staffed. He's told you that.
3:14
That would leave no, I I think just plain common sense tells me
3:18
that. So this policy will be refined.
3:20
These policies that will leave care homes without without
3:24
assistance. But what what we that is?
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Exactly what the current policy would do.
3:27
What we would do would be that those those jobs, those skills
3:31
would be filled by an individual.
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That doesn't mean their entire family can come over with them.
3:37
It doesn't mean they will have a right to British pensions.
3:40
It doesn't mean they'd have a right to the British welfare
3:42
system of of course illegal migration, as in any other
3:46
country in the world is a person to fill a skills gap.
3:51
And I'm very sure that moving forward when there is more
3:54
clarity around reforms parties, that is exactly what reform
3:57
we'll be looking at. So.
3:58
You're not the threshold might have to come down the salary
4:00
threshold because you know, you're not going to get care
4:03
workers and and nurses in, you know, in the under the threshold
4:06
that's currently being talked about.
4:08
You're asking me about policy details.
4:10
I do not hold a job within Reform or a title.
4:13
Zia Youssef, who is Nigel Farage's right hand man, which
4:18
it almost makes me laugh when people level the accusation of
4:22
racism. Zia is Nigel Farage's right hand
4:25
man. He's now the head of policy.
4:27
Zia will be defining those policies.
4:30
Zia is an incredibly intelligent man.
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Is he going to leave our care homes and our hospitals without
4:35
staff to run them? No, he is not.
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But what he will do is make sure that those people who are here
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are I, I believe that those people are here, are here to do
4:45
a job that doesn't give them endless entitlements to our
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public services, British pensions, our welfare system.
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It doesn't give their entire family a right to follow them
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and that those people who are here illegally will be removed.
5:00
Before we move on to why reform is introducing this policy, you
5:03
said that Keir Starmer's remarks were dangerous.
5:06
Very dangerous just. Explain why and if you really
5:09
feel threatened by those comments that made from the
5:12
conference back. Look, we've seen MPs murdered in
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the past and there was almost an understanding that that rhetoric
5:22
and the dialogue that MPs use towards each other, one has to
5:28
be very careful. And I think what happened
5:31
yesterday at the Labour Party conference was an utter
5:35
disgrace. It was.
5:36
But you believe in free speech? You believe free.
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Speech there is and Nigel Farage said himself this week, there
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are when there are accounts being established, TikTok
5:46
accounts and other accounts being opened that are calling
5:48
for him to be for the end of his life and calling for him to.
5:53
I mean, it's only weeks since there was a, a murder in the US,
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the Charlie Kirk murder. One has to be cuddled, inciting
6:00
violence, which is what I think Keir Starmer did yesterday,
6:04
inciting hatred. That's not free speech, that's
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dangerous. And that's.
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What Lucy Connolly? Was jailed for and.
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Reform has opposed that decision.
6:12
Always a level to that. There's always a limit to that.
6:16
Let's talk about why reformers introduced this policy on
6:19
immigration, because Nigel Farage says that he's dealing
6:22
with what he calls the Boris wave.
6:23
And I'll just quote what he said.
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Millions of people being allowed into Britain, most of whom don't
6:28
even work and are costing us a fortune.
6:30
And he says voters will never forgive your friend Boris
6:33
Johnson, the former Prime Minister for that is Nigel
6:36
Farage, right? So you know the interesting
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thing I found about this, and I've yet to have this discussion
6:41
with Nigel. He's been particularly busy.
6:43
I've yet to have this discussion with them.
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It's how Rishi Sunak is getting off Scott free on this
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discussion. It was.
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It was under Boris Johnson's government.
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Well, just let me explain. So during COVID, a lot of people
6:54
left the UK. People willingly went back home.
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A lot of Eastern Europeans who were filling particular
7:00
vacancies and roles in the UK went back.
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Kathy, you were reporting, and I was a minister at the time, when
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COVID ended, when the hospitality sector was screaming
7:10
out because they couldn't open their doors, because they
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couldn't function, when nursing homes were screaming out because
7:17
the the bulk of Eastern Europeans who were filling those
7:19
jobs had left. It was the Migration Advisory
7:22
Committee who advised the number of people who were needed in the
7:26
UK to fill those vacancies. And that was, and by the way,
7:31
the Boris wave word is very much a Dominic Cummings artefact.
7:36
So it was so. So the Migration Committee
7:39
advised the number of people who need to come over.
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Now I know that at the time Boris Johnson was putting in
7:45
place legislation that people who come over didn't have the
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right, you'll remember this, to bring their entire families over
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with them. And I find it quite remarkable
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that people talk about the Boris wave.
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He was British, Sunak was Prime Minister for two years.
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So why is nobody mentioning what Rishi Sunak did?
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So it's a Boris and Rishi wave to be.
8:01
Accurate it was I, Boris and I will disagree on this.
8:06
He will. He will say that there was a
8:08
need for people to come over and he put in place the legislation
8:11
to stop those families coming over.
8:14
But you think? It was a mistake to allow so
8:15
many people in, you think Boris Johnson. 4 million people, way
8:18
too many, way too much, and he doesn't.
8:20
Agree. He doesn't agree with you on
8:21
that. So look, I'm not going to
8:23
discuss my conversations with Boris Johnson with you, but 4
8:25
million people hoping too many people, I think it is, was way,
8:28
way too much because you, our NHS, cannot sustain that number.
8:33
Our NHS resources are being channelled towards those people,
8:36
those four extra million people. So are our schools, so are our
8:40
public services, so are our pensions.
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We simply cannot, as the small island that we are, Kathy,
8:46
sustain that level of inward migration and continue to
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provide the public services that we need to that people deserve
8:53
and require. You accept you didn't raise your
8:55
voice around the table and say there's a Boris wave coming and
8:59
it's wrong and I oppose. It no, because I was completely
9:01
unaware that the number of people I knew the Migration
9:04
Advisory Committee had advised that we needed to fill those
9:07
skill gaps. I knew that there was a
9:10
discussion taking place about filling those skill gaps but
9:12
stop preventing people's families from coming over.
9:15
I was not made aware of the numbers and nobody around the
9:18
cabinet table was made aware of the numbers.
9:20
Priti Patel knew the numbers, she knew what was happening.
9:24
She was the home secretary, she is responsible.
9:27
She was responsible for the Home Office at the time, the Prime
9:30
Minister overseas, all of our departments.
9:34
We are each responsible for our department which are, which is a
9:37
full time job. I didn't ask how many people do
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we have coming. The questions I was asking were,
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well, I need more money to get broadband rolled out to every
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home in the UK, right, so that we can level up.
9:51
I need to to work on the midterm review of the BBC licence fee.
9:55
They're the kind of discussions I was having because that was my
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department. You accept that Boris Johnson
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got it wrong on this? I mean reforms head of policies
10:03
you. I accept that 4.2 million people
10:06
was way, way too big a number. Right.
10:08
So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take back control as.
10:11
No Brexit. It was because we have
10:13
controlled of our borders that we were able.
10:16
To open the borders and let everybody in.
10:18
No, Kathy, that's quite a twist on what happened.
10:22
What Boris Johnson did was, and I agree with the Migration
10:25
Advisory Committee that we need and agree with the hospitality
10:29
sector and the care home sector and every other sector that was
10:32
screaming out for more people to come in.
10:34
He put in place the process to prevent those people from being
10:38
in their families over. He would also be entitled to our
10:41
pensions and on our NHS and our schools and our public services.
10:45
It was Rishi Sunak that stopped that happening, right?
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Zia Youssef, reforms head of policy, who you've extolled as a
10:51
very clever man, described Boris Johnson as one of the worst
10:55
prime ministers in history. Have you had a chance to set him
10:57
right? Look, I'm political knockabout
11:01
and rhetoric between opposition parties is as old as the Roman
11:06
Empire. So of course he's going to say
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that and I wish he wouldn't. I actually don't like playing
11:12
the man. I'd rather play the ball and I
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but you know, I'm not Zia. Zia will do things the way he
11:18
wants to. I think.
11:20
I sometimes just think that maybe we should just take the
11:23
personal out of it. And, you know, that's why I was
11:27
so dismayed with what I heard Keir Starmer saying yesterday
11:32
and what I heard David Lammy and the 11 cabinet, Labour cabinet
11:35
ministers. And by the way, so normally
11:36
after a conference, we, any party, even those who are
11:40
struggling the worst, see a bounce in their poll rating,
11:44
even if it's only minimal, we'll see some kind of bounce.
11:47
I don't think we're going to see that with Labour.
11:49
Well, let's see. It's it's too early to say,
11:50
perhaps, but staying on Boris Johnson, are you trying to
11:54
persuade him to defect from Conservatives to reform?
11:56
No. Gosh, no.
11:57
Lost cause. No, no.
11:58
No, no. No, no, he's a former
12:00
Conservative Prime Minister. You're former.
12:02
Conservative cabinet minister, you've defected.
12:05
That's different. He's a former Conservative Prime
12:08
Minister. He is not going to defect to
12:10
another political party, do you think?
12:12
There will be more defections from the Tories to Oh yeah, I
12:14
know. I know there will be.
12:16
No, there will be. How many roughly bigger names
12:18
than me? Roughly how?
12:20
Many are we talking I. Well, Nigel doesn't want many.
12:23
That's the that's the issue. I know there are probably
12:26
political names who are wanting to come to reform who he doesn't
12:29
want. So he's turned people.
12:31
Away I I. Would imagine he has like but
12:34
you know that. There are people, a number of
12:37
people, high profile Tories who are ready to jump ship well.
12:40
Nigel said this himself and he said himself, he doesn't want
12:43
that many, you know, reform isn't going to be just a, a, an,
12:47
an for the those on the sinking ship to the life raft for those
12:51
to jump onto. That's not what it is.
12:53
And it also isn't going to just become a new Conservative Party
12:56
because the Conservative Party, and it pains me to say this, the
13:00
Conservative Party over the time it's been in government has
13:04
failed in many levels. The Labour Party has failed.
13:08
I don't think there's been a radical visionary government
13:11
since the time of Margaret Thatcher.
13:13
I think Boris Johnson would have been that radical visionary
13:15
Prime Minister, but he had Putin and COVID to deal with and, and
13:20
some very left-leaning typical MPs who wanted to see him
13:23
removed because of Brexit. And I think that what we need in
13:27
reform is that radical vision about doing things differently
13:31
in Westminster and in Whitehall. And we're not going to get that
13:35
if all that reform do is bring over a pile of ex ministers you
13:39
think within. Days we're going to see some
13:40
more high profile I I. Haven't Kathy, I have no idea.
13:42
I can't. I don't have a crystal ball.
13:44
I can't answer that question, but I do.
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I do believe there will be high profile defections.
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I'm very sure that will happen for two reasons.
13:54
One is there will be people like me who have given their life to
14:00
politics and have a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience
14:05
that they think they want to offer and will want to do so and
14:09
see how irrelevant the Conservative Party is.
14:13
There is no hope for the Conservative Party.
14:15
It is not going to turn its fortunes around.
14:18
It is not even going to be in opposition after the next
14:21
general election. And there are some good MPs in
14:24
the Conservative Party who will think, well, I've still got a
14:27
lot to give and, and I'm sure will go to Reform and I'm, if I
14:32
were then I would have those, those conversations with Nigel
14:35
Farage. I'm not sure Nigel will take
14:37
everybody. I'm not sure he wants many, but
14:40
I think there will be some he would consider.
14:42
Boris Johnson says he wouldn't defect to reform because of its
14:46
extremely dangerous policy on Russia.
14:48
I mean, Nigel Farage has claimed that NATO provoked Putin's
14:52
aggression. The former party leader in Wales
14:55
has admitted taking bribes to make statements in favour of
14:58
Russia while a member of the European Parliament.
15:00
I mean, are you worried about that?
15:01
Did you do your due diligence? I did there are there are
15:04
policies that I I'm not going to agree on everything with Nigel
15:08
Fraud. I didn't agree on everything
15:10
with Boris. We'll talk about a.
15:11
Few. A few more of them in a minute,
15:12
but most. Agreements were in private and
15:14
behind the scenes I but there are things I do agree with Nigel
15:19
on. I do agree with him on the
15:21
economy and you know the it's interesting that Labour actually
15:25
adopted one of his policies yesterday which was lifting the
15:27
two child benefit gap. The difference being that Nigel
15:32
wants to lift the two child benefit cap, the two working
15:35
couples for working families and what Starmer will probably do is
15:39
lift it for everybody, which means people on benefits.
15:42
He'll actually increase the welfare bill which is owned.
15:44
Chief Secretary of Treasury said it's unsustainable in the longer
15:47
term. So I agree with him on his
15:50
attitude to public says and we had a big discussion about this.
15:54
Did you talk? About Russia, though, so we.
15:56
Talked about Ukraine. And so his support for Ukraine,
16:00
his his plans for the economy, law and order and migration were
16:06
for me the central themes of what Nigel and I talked about.
16:09
But we agreed on he's Johnny come.
16:11
Lately on Ukraine, isn't he? I mean, he's taken, he's made,
16:14
he's made. Very definite and very clear
16:17
statements about Ukraine over a long period of time, yeah, but
16:21
he. Took money from the Kremlin
16:22
doing his appearances on Russia Today, which is this, you know,
16:25
state channel that. Kathy And that was?
16:28
After Russia invaded relevant. To nothing that was relevant to
16:32
nothing. So it was after Russia?
16:33
Invaded there were a number of. MPs, I think, who appeared on
16:37
Russia Today, but you didn't. I mean, you wouldn't do that,
16:39
would you? No, but but Kathy, I don't like
16:42
doing media. I do 1-2 months under pressure.
16:46
I only do it for you 'cause I think you're a great
16:48
broadcaster. But I'm very limited about what?
16:50
And so a lot of MPs are very limited about the media, but
16:52
sitting. Down with Russia Today, which is
16:54
funded by the Kremlin. That was a mistake by your
16:57
leader, wasn't it? Are they to say?
16:59
That so you're not. Concerned.
17:00
I think it's about statements on Russia.
17:01
Oh, you're talking. History.
17:03
You're talking about history, and I'm just not gonna go down
17:05
there. It's not that historic.
17:07
Though isn't it February 2022 only?
17:09
Thing that is important is does Nigel Farage support Zelensky
17:14
and Ukraine's right to protect its borders and to have its
17:18
territory? But, and he does.
17:20
And that's for me. And the question I asked Nigel
17:23
was it is absolutely vital to me that you have unstinting support
17:28
for Zelensky in Ukraine. You know, and he and he.
17:31
And he pledged that to you? Absolutely.
17:33
I was Secretary of State when Putin invaded.
17:37
I had my conversations with my opposite number in Ukraine when
17:41
he was in a bunker and Kiev was under fire and he had stacked
17:45
around him Ukraine's most precious artwork, protecting it
17:49
in a bunker, in a cave. You know, I was invested in
17:52
Ukraine. I actually LED in the very first
17:55
days across the world, Australia, Japan, New Zealand,
18:00
countries across the globe in, in bringing together an accord
18:05
where we decided that Russian athletes would not be able to
18:09
take part in the Olympic, the Winter Olympics, where they
18:11
would not be able to appear in. Russian artists will not be able
18:14
to appear in various countries. We LED that.
18:17
We were the very first people to do that.
18:18
I was invested in Ukraine. It was important to me that
18:22
Nigel Farage is also invested. Yeah.
18:23
And while you were? Doing all of that and feel very
18:26
passionately about it. You're now leader was putting
18:29
out on social media February 2022 that the Russian invasion
18:32
of Ukraine was a consequence of EU and NATO expansion.
18:36
Well, he said. That in 2022, what is important
18:38
to me today, and lots of people change their minds on lots of
18:41
issues, particularly in politics, what is important to
18:44
me today is that Nigel Farage has full support behind Zelensky
18:50
and Ukraine and he does. And I'm looking forward, Kathy
18:53
not back. I'm looking forward and I will
18:55
and I will hold Nigel's feet to the fire on that if I have to.
18:59
He will not wave on Ukraine, I'm very sure of that.
19:02
We're a few days out from the Conservative Party conference.
19:04
You have described the party as dead.
19:07
Just unpack that a bit for. Us well, it's irrelevant
19:10
nobody's listening, nobody's interested you know it's
19:14
nobody's book well, some people have but you know, very few
19:17
organisations have even bought stands at their conference you
19:20
know when there are stories online about the Conservative
19:23
Party, no one's reading them. When, you know, people switch
19:26
off now in this broadcast, in this podcast, no one's
19:29
interested in the Conservative Party and and he has to go
19:32
further down, you know, so we know that politics is cyclical.
19:37
And I'm very sure that maybe, I don't know, 15 years time from
19:40
now, the Conservative Party may become fit again to be to be a
19:45
force in Westminster. It's facing an.
19:47
Existential threat, though, if it's dying, it is.
19:50
It is and and it probably will, but that doesn't mean there will
19:53
be people who believe in conservativism who won't come
19:56
and reform in the future so effectively.
19:58
Reform in the Tories will merge, won't they?
20:01
So I've said this all along that, you know, if Nigel was
20:05
short of the numbers to form an overall majority, it's going to
20:09
be a threat to the lower majority, though, isn't it?
20:12
Who can say? You know, again, we don't have
20:14
crystal balls, do we? You know, Keir Starmer got a
20:17
majority. Despite the fact that it was,
20:19
you know, wide and loveless and shallow.
20:22
He still managed to get one. And yeah, I mean, we seem to be
20:26
in the territory. Boris Johnson had an agency.
20:28
We seem to be in the territory of large majorities but that
20:31
there may need to be an accommodation of some form in
20:36
the future, whether that will look like in certain key seats,
20:40
reformist on candidates or there will be some kind of
20:43
arrangement. If, if that doesn't happen and
20:46
reform are slightly short, I mean reform, we're not going to
20:49
get into bed with the Liberal Democrats, but in the Labour.
20:52
Would be open to some kind of tie up do you think?
20:53
Would you? Well, Cammy.
20:54
Bejnak even be there right? So you.
20:56
Think she She won't necessarily be, I don't think.
20:58
So I don't think I'll make this prediction with you.
21:01
I don't think that after next may either Camille Bejanak or
21:05
Keir Starmer will be leaders of the parties.
21:07
And in fact, I I put serious money on that.
21:10
They won't be. Keir Starmer will struggle to
21:13
last until next May. We know what happened at his
21:16
conference. You know his speech well, he
21:18
shored. Up his support thanks to Andy
21:20
Burnham Kathy he. What the the point?
21:22
It was all optics and it was all window dressing.
21:25
It was all about muting. Andy Burnham keeping the show on
21:31
the road for the cameras. When Labour go back to
21:34
Westminster in two weeks it will fall apart.
21:36
We know that though you and I know from what we know behind
21:40
the scenes, the warfare is real. Lucy Powell will become the
21:44
deputy leader of the party. It's Bridget Phillipson, won't
21:47
come anywhere near Andy Burnham will continue.
21:51
It was just the wrong time at the conference, the wrong
21:54
objects put back in. His box, sorry.
21:55
Now come back to we know. I know Andy Burnham for a very
21:57
long time. Andy Burnham is back in his box
22:00
for now, probably for the next two weeks.
22:02
Andy Burnham hasn't hasn't gone away.
22:05
Kebby Bade. Not not least because.
22:07
Lucy Powell is Andy Burnham's right.
22:08
You know, woman, he's got his. He's got his person in
22:11
Westminster, Kelly Badenoch. Is poised to withdraw from the
22:14
European Convention on human rights and the refugee
22:16
convention does that not give you pause that you know she's
22:19
now coming up with the policies that you wanted to see she.
22:22
Can't, because she may. That may be a policy she'll
22:26
announce again. Window dressing.
22:28
And This is why I am So, you know, aren't so many of us so
22:32
heartily sick of politicians and stand and make claims but don't
22:36
do anything about it? Well, I mean she.
22:38
Can't. Now she's in opposition, and she
22:40
won't be. Able to, and she'll never be
22:41
able to because their MPs will never back her and she'd never
22:44
be able to get that through. And that's because 2/3 of the
22:47
MPs in the Conservative Party are to the left of the
22:50
Conservative Party. They will never support her in
22:53
leaving the ECHR or the convention.
22:57
It just won't happen. You've been.
22:59
Quite open about the fact that you don't agree with everything
23:02
your new leader sets out, but there are a couple of areas that
23:05
seems. No, I, I said we're not going to
23:08
agree on everything. So I can't think of anything.
23:10
He's set out at the moment and they're sure you're going to
23:11
remind me. Well, I'm gonna have an.
23:13
Idea about the online safety bill, which is yes, you
23:15
introduced, you know, you were very proud of it we have had.
23:18
Discussions about that, Nigel? Farage says it's dystopian.
23:20
He's promised to repeal it. I mean, you can try and talk him
23:23
around on that, yeah. Absolutely.
23:24
And I've already begun. So what I would like to see is
23:27
the word children and young people inserted into every
23:30
clause in the Online Safety Bill.
23:32
The problem, the thing that happened with the Online Safety
23:34
Bill, Kathy. And remember I, I took it out
23:37
the weeds where it was nothing and put it before Westminster in
23:41
a year. The problem was that every MP
23:45
wanted their say on that bill. It was treated like a Christmas
23:48
tree and every MP wanted to hang a bauble on it.
23:50
And it became just this bizarre bill which is really unworkable
23:56
and which the police don't have any ability to use except when
24:00
they want to and what they want to use.
24:03
And it's convenient. And I think one I would try and
24:06
persuade Nigel Farage and he said these words himself and I
24:09
was interested to hear him say and he said, I think he said,
24:12
you know, I'll say this, actually there are limits to
24:15
free speech. That was quite important because
24:19
he felt those limits to free speech when people were setting
24:22
up online social media accounts calling for his death.
24:25
So has. Nigel Farage committed to you
24:28
that instead of repealing that bill, he hasn't committed.
24:30
Anything but we do have we do I have spoken to him about this.
24:34
He's. Probably to listen I have.
24:36
He does listen. This is the thing I have been,
24:40
I'm absolutely find refreshing and encouraging is that Nigel
24:45
will really engage in the conversation.
24:48
Whereas, you know, in the past, you know, I had in the past,
24:53
I've had prime ministers who will speak to you through their
24:56
spags and their aids when it's an uncomfortable subject that
24:59
they don't want to discuss. And the thing I find about Nigel
25:03
refreshing is that he will have the conversation, robust
25:05
conversation with you. So he's not.
25:07
Your average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint
25:09
of milk? To use your words, no.
25:11
He isn't, and I do find that refreshing.
25:13
I mean, he went. To Dulwich College.
25:14
He's quite he. Did he?
25:16
Did yeah, but you know, I think was I might even have said this
25:20
to you. I've said this before in an
25:21
interview. I'm sure is there is posh and
25:23
posh, there are posh people who can talk to anybody.
25:27
They still relate to people. They're normal.
25:30
And there are posh people who just don't.
25:32
And Nigel Farage is somebody who not only does he have his finger
25:35
on the pulse, but he's, he can relate to anyone.
25:38
And, and I think you see that how people have responded to him
25:41
across the board. So he's, he's, he's up for
25:44
discussion. He's always up for debate.
25:47
And you know, I, I have to say that in my first days of joining
25:51
for him, I've challenged him and I thought, what am I doing?
25:54
And but he's been like, like up for it, robust and up for it.
25:59
So it's a conversation. It's a conversation I probably
26:02
won't win. But what I would say is that
26:05
when I ask people, don't you want to protect children,
26:09
particularly young girls and young women where we've seen the
26:12
the number of those suffering from eating disorders rise
26:15
exponentially, the number of young people who took their own
26:18
life don't. We were in the 16 to 24 age
26:20
grant, but I didn't want to do something about that because I
26:23
was the health minister who got the coroner's prevention of
26:26
future death reports. I know why these young people
26:30
are taking their own lives and you said all.
26:32
This tonight when you. Talk to people about that.
26:34
They find it. It's difficult to come back at
26:36
you with an answer, so I will continue always.
26:40
You've said that. To Nigel Farage, have you?
26:41
Yeah, and one. Of the, one of the purposes of
26:44
me being in reform actually, is to, to have those discussions.
26:47
And I will talk about children and young people and I will do
26:50
it always. And I may not get my own way,
26:53
but at least I'll have my voice heard.
26:54
And that's important because you don't always get your voice
26:56
heard. A couple of other.
26:58
Policy areas that you may or may not agree or disagree on with
27:01
your new leader. You tried to privatise Channel
27:03
4, I did When? You're in government.
27:05
Do you expect a reform government to press ahead with
27:07
that? Oh well, that's one.
27:08
Conversation we haven't had. I also wanted to change the way
27:13
the BBC is funded from the licence fee.
27:15
I'm not sure if you're aware of this but, and I don't know what
27:19
the figure is today. I know the figure was 78% of
27:24
everybody convicted for non payment of BB licence fee is a
27:27
woman and it's because women carry the many cases, women
27:32
carry the responsibility for the home and for the family and for
27:35
the bills. And I wanted to change the way
27:37
the BBC was funded. Now, I haven't had either of
27:40
those conversations with Nigel Farage and and I don't get the
27:45
impression that's that's top of his agenda.
27:49
But I will also, along with protecting children and young
27:52
people, have the conversations with him about the BBC and he
27:55
knows what he's getting with me. He knew what I he, he, he didn't
27:59
take me into reform, not knowing they're the things, the causes
28:01
that I've championed. You're.
28:03
A former nurse, have you taken issue with him the fact that he
28:06
wasn't able to condemn Donald Trump's remarks linking
28:09
paracetamol to autism pregnant mums?
28:12
So I looked, so I hadn't spoken to him about that and I looked
28:15
at what he said and what he said was that that we would be led by
28:21
the science in the UK and that different countries have hit, I
28:25
think. Well, actually, no.
28:26
He he said he did. Lean into it with something
28:28
else. He he actually.
28:29
Said he didn't. He didn't necessarily see that
28:31
he would that science was fluid and that he didn't necessarily
28:35
believe the science experts. He he didn't want to trust the
28:38
science expert. So here's the thing.
28:40
About being a Prime Minister is you can't take decisions about
28:44
health policy, your chief scientific officer and your
28:47
chief. I mean, you can as long as you
28:50
are prepared to take a civil lawsuit.
28:52
And you know, I mean, that's this is the one thing that
28:55
amazes me about COVID, when people talk about COVID
28:57
lockdowns and some of the policies we introduced in COVID.
29:01
If Boris Johnson had ignored the advice of the Chief scientific
29:05
Officer, the Chief Medical Officer, SAGE and other bodies
29:09
that were identified as those who were informing on that
29:14
particular policy, he would probably be in prison now as a
29:18
result of a civil lawsuit or certainly in that process.
29:21
Now, no Prime Minister is ever going to be able to say to
29:25
override the chief scientific officer and the chief medical
29:28
officer when it comes to health policy, unless of course.
29:32
Is extremely. Wealthy and settled.
29:34
Well, that's, you know, again he would change.
29:36
As Prime Minister, if he was Prime Minister, he wouldn't have
29:39
any. Option not to as a health.
29:40
Minister during the pandemic, as you've set out, are you content
29:44
for Nigel Farage to be advised by Asim Malhotra, who claimed at
29:47
the Reform Party conference that COVID vaccines were a
29:50
significant factor in the royal family's cancer diagnosis?
29:53
That was. Just insane.
29:54
That was literally insane and I'm not sure if that person or
30:01
will ever be invited to reform conference again.
30:03
I'd be very surprised if he was. Or will you make those?
30:06
Representations to Nigel Far when I speak.
30:08
To again, that's we spoke about so there is so much discussed.
30:11
That's not something I've spoken to him about, but but you would.
30:15
You would intend to, no. That's pretty.
30:16
Pretty reform is I think it was the first major conference it's
30:21
ever had. It's learning as it goes.
30:22
So it was grossly. Irresponsible wasn't it, to
30:24
allow someone like that to be platform?
30:26
Well, I don't believe anybody knew that he was going to say
30:29
that. Well, he had.
30:30
Reform. I mean he, he.
30:31
Nobody knew he was going to say that, but he was.
30:34
He was opposed. To the COVID vaccines, some
30:37
incendiary remarks about those he.
30:38
Used the reform platform in order to garner both attention
30:43
and immediate interest in his own platform.
30:47
Great. And to be clear, what he said
30:50
wasn't true. And what Donald Trump has said
30:52
about the link between paracetamol and autism, also
30:55
untrue, unproven. You just.
30:57
Have to the only thing you can do as a minister and when Nigel
31:01
Farage is Prime Minister, which he will be very soon, when Nigel
31:05
Farage is Prime Minister, when it comes to health policy on
31:09
issues such as paracetamol and autism or anything else, he will
31:13
have to be guided and take the advice of the chief medical
31:17
officer and the chief scientific officer.
31:19
Unless of course, he wants to go outside that and leave himself
31:23
vulnerable for civil lawsuits, obviously.
31:25
It's up to the British people whether he becomes Prime
31:28
Minister, but just finally, will he be standing as a Reform MP at
31:31
the next election? Have you been offered a peerage
31:33
as the price of you defecting? I haven't had those
31:36
conversations with Nigel Farage. Interestingly.
31:40
If I was a man I probably would have nailed him on a cabinet
31:43
position and on a safe seat and on various other things.
31:47
But you didn't extract. Anything out of that that just.
31:49
Didn't even cross my mind and the period.
31:50
Hasn't been mentioned for me. I just literally we have not had
31:54
those discussions. For me, the for me, the
31:58
important thing was I'm, I'm still involved in politics a
32:04
lot. And for me, the important thing
32:07
was to remove myself from the Conservative Party.
32:10
It's toxic and I've been there since I left in 2022.
32:17
It's a toxic, sinking organization.
32:19
I wanted to remove myself from it.
32:21
And initially I was just going to join Reform.
32:24
And it was a third party who said, no, don't just, you do not
32:29
just join Reform. You have to defector reform.
32:33
Interesting. I have no way to defect from
32:34
because I wasn't in a position. But who said that?
32:37
The third party say. That a fellow.
32:40
A fellow Conservative. I'm not going to say that.
32:42
Not Boris Johnson. So.
32:43
What? Definitely not Boris Johnson.
32:45
He would have. Persuaded you to stay.
32:47
Just a final question. Nigel Farage had to eat, I
32:50
believe. Camel udder, you ostrich anus on
32:53
on a celebrity. Is that well?
32:55
Actually, long ago. It's 2012.
32:56
You've gone. Eating ostrich anus Did I eat an
32:59
ostrich? In this did I I believe.
33:01
You did. I just wondered whether you
33:02
compared notes with him on disgusting things you had to
33:05
eat. No.
33:06
No, I mean, honestly, it's somewhere in my distant memory
33:09
is a long time ago. Nadine Dorris.
33:10
Thank you very much. Thank you, Kathy.
33:13
That's it. For the forecast, thank you very
33:14
much for watching. Goodbye.