Latest / Conversations with Dad / Part 2: What Dad Learned from the Work
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- Mbrownstein3485: Hey, Dad. Stanley Brownstein: Hey, how are you doing? Mbrownstein3485: Doing okay and interested in talking more with you. ⁓ Something I haven't asked before, I'm wondering when we finish up a conversation, what's the come down like? Or what's the experience for you when we're done talking about something? Stanley Brownstein: So I think over the week I kind of, as thoughts do, kind of seep into your consciousness and you... reconsider them, ⁓ not necessarily reconsider them to change it, but kind of almost hear yourself for the first time in a way. I've been in a way, actually I've been appreciating that. I feel that this is ⁓ giving me an opportunity to ⁓ formulate. Mbrownstein3485: Right? Stanley Brownstein: what I feel has influenced me and what brought me to a certain place, what brought me here, and whether I think it's accurate or not, or just in general, even if it is accurate, how that reflects upon my thought processes. Mbrownstein3485: you So last time when we talked, I straight up just learned some new things that I had never heard. One of those things was that you, I think it was Beth Page, was that where you were living in Long Island in the house? Glancow, okay. So I didn't know that you were living in a home with other folks who were part of the work. And... Stanley Brownstein: Blank off. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, I guess the extent to which that, that chapter in your, in your twenties, the extent to which the work became something that was not something you just did before and after work or before and after your, your, your job, but something that was really kind of how you spent your time socially and spiritually throughout your day. so I'm wondering if there's anything else. about your time in Glen Cove or during that chapter that you're curious about or comes to mind as you think about that time. Stanley Brownstein: Well, what's interesting, perhaps, is that A couple of things occur to me. feel that. It's hard to say that anything is really intentional because we have so many movers, but I think we're always. Especially in our culture, we're always captured by. Aiming for a certain goal or. ⁓ You know, aspiring to something. Which involves not only our behaviors, but also our social groups and all of that, and the more that. It is accepted by the general population. It's supported by the media and the commercial industry, the more normal it is. But I do feel about anyone who's engaged in any type of all-encompassing and passionate type of involvement. Often, and I kind of put religion in that category, Mbrownstein3485: you you Stanley Brownstein: Even though it might seem to be a little bit off the beaten track, I feel that if it's not doing harm, you know, if it doesn't leave a person vulnerable and it's sincere, both in terms of the setting and, you know, and what this individual is seeking, which, is open to a lot of interpretation. Even then I kind of felt it was a, it's a, it's a worthwhile cause. You know, it's kind of like, could either be, in a sense, you could either be Mbrownstein3485: you you Stanley Brownstein: aiming for enlightenment or you could be aiming for the best pair of jeans or the best car. I also feel that, ⁓ and we touched upon it last time a little bit when I said that your grandma was trying to get a deprogrammer after us. And what was interesting too is that at that time there were a lot of those Mbrownstein3485: Sure. you Right? you Stanley Brownstein: know, Hare Krishnas and all of that kind of thing. And there were people who were... ⁓ kind of brought their students on a questionable path. ⁓ But by the same token, anything that was outside of the accepted institutionalized religions were often called a cult. But if you look historically, I mean, you know, we had a little talk before you started where there was this gentleman who was a mentor to you. And, you know, any place you could find someone that you feel is a mentor, Mbrownstein3485: Sure. you Sure. Stanley Brownstein: you're not going to say, you value it. it's really up to, a mentor to someone is a cultist to another. So what was interesting, Wendy and I, Mom and I were very confident in our discernment. And actually when we decided to leave, they said, no one provided any resistance or anything like that. And in fact, Mbrownstein3485: Right. you Stanley Brownstein: I might have mentioned that I returned in my 40s and I felt the door was open to if I wanted to and it was something that you know I did feel like returning to but I also felt that at that point in time when I left I kind of felt that I was no longer valuing it as much as I think I should have and I and I kind of went into life and felt I. Mbrownstein3485: you you you Stanley Brownstein: I accomplished some productive things in life and it was time again to revisit this with a little bit more age behind me and wisdom hopefully. Mbrownstein3485: you Before we move into part two of the work, is there anything more that seems relevant or clear to you as to? how you came to the conclusion that it was time to step away from the work. Stanley Brownstein: I think, as I said, I felt I wasn't valuing it ⁓ in the way I should within that setting. So in a way, I do feel that I'm still on a path. And even with Tai Chi, like I don't go to Tai Chi classes anymore, but I still feel I'm learning. So as long as I feel that I'm learning something, ⁓ with the endeavors that I'm engaged in on my own. When I say on my own, you know, with reading or whatever. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: and I'm valuing it, I feel that's a positive thing. And that's kind of where I'm at. Mbrownstein3485: you I know you mentioned grandma. ⁓ I'm wondering if there's anyone else in your family that had a ⁓ strong opinion or opinion that seems relevant to share. Like I'm thinking about Uncle Elliot, for example. ⁓ Is there anything that you can recall from that earlier chapter around how people were responding to your path? Stanley Brownstein: Actually, it's interesting because as you know, I come from a fairly religious family and this was not at all ⁓ Judaism-centric. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: And my, I even had, my mother and father had visited the facility for the health center. And one of the posters there had a big cross. know, what's interesting is, you know, the cross is obviously a Christian symbol, but in my mind and with it, in that context, my relationship to it was not about Mbrownstein3485: Okay. you you you Stanley Brownstein: worshipping Christ as much as the symbol of the cross was an ancient reference to opening up to the fourth dimension. So, there was always that ⁓ justification in me that where I wouldn't be defensive about it in a way that I was ⁓ negating my Mbrownstein3485: Hmm you Stanley Brownstein: or ⁓ confronting my parents or my ⁓ brother's beliefs. So, but that being said, they never said anything. I mean, was, was, I never felt like I had to justify it to them in any way. Mbrownstein3485: you You Was that surprising to you? Stanley Brownstein: I don't know if it was surprising to me now, but in a way I don't, I mean, do I ask you to justify things you do in a way that ⁓ I think that's. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. I feel like you would not necessarily with the goal. Yeah. Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: Intellectually, I might, but not like, how can you do this to me, you know? Mbrownstein3485: ⁓ no, I wouldn't suspect that. But yeah, I think you would ask. Stanley Brownstein: But I almost kind of, I would kind of, I wouldn't have been surprised if they did, you know, but they didn't. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Gotcha. All right. Stanley Brownstein: But I also shared with them what I was studying at different times. So they kind of maybe on a certain level were with me on the journey ⁓ to some extent. I don't even know if Elliott was around then, my brother, because he had an interesting tangent. He actually was, at a certain point he was up in Canada studying at ⁓ a school, very religious, very cloistered in a way. And he was invited, so this wealthy benefactor wanted him to marry his daughter. this benefactor would have, Elliot wouldn't have had to work, all he would have had to do was study all the time, because it was just all about religious Judaism. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Okay. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: And my mother made up the story to get him back home because she felt if he did this, she would lose him. But she never did anything like that with me, even when I was living in Glencove, so was kind of funny. Mbrownstein3485: ⁓ huh. Well, and, yeah, go ahead. Stanley Brownstein: So. I was just saying, it's like, I think my parents knew their children, what they can get away with, knew where they were going, whatever. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, I was gonna hypothesize something similar. Hillary and I have lots of conversations. She actually, think in her own experience, is able to see this more than I do. And maybe it's because I'm the oldest, or it's because you all are just significantly different, slash I'm just different. Like Hillary's able to see and notice very distinct parenting technique, differences in parenting. parenting techniques by her parents to her and her sisters. ⁓ You know, and obviously sometimes it comes up in ways where there's frustration or something like that. ⁓ But also there's just moments where it's like, from like a neutral perspective, like there are just differences. I wonder what that's about, right? And obviously we can start thinking about what it might be about. ⁓ so-and-so needs this type of support. Yeah, I don't know, you have any thoughts about that? Stanley Brownstein: About different parenting techniques. Mbrownstein3485: Well, just the fact that, I mean, you started to say, you know, maybe your parents just had a sense that, you you each can, you said something like you each would get away with something different. And I didn't take that as you would get away and like sidestep consequences more like you each, so I was wondering if you could say a little bit more about that. Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: Right, right. Well, there are two things that occurred to me. One is as a parent, a big part of it is, you know, a big overriding factor. is you want your child to be safe and you want your child to do well. And in many ways, that's your bias. But that's also who you are, which is also based upon your environment growing up. So you just kind of echo, and we talked about this a little bit, just kind of... Mbrownstein3485: you you sure. Stanley Brownstein: subconsciously, you know, what you know, your upbringing. But it also reflects to what in a way it reflects what there's an emotional response, because if you're afraid of something, you're going to you're going to like pass that on to your child. So so much of it is just who you are. But then there's also a you know, a learned something that you learn as you try to be a good parent, you know, so Mbrownstein3485: you you you you you you Stanley Brownstein: Even though, you so a big part of being a good parent is knowing when you you try to instill the message to your child, but you also try to know when to let go. You know, so like you know when so when you were young I might insist on something. But as you're older, I hope you listen. Type of thing. Now it was funny. I heard Hillary says something when we were together over the weekend. How she's a middle child, you know, and how Felix I'm a middle child, so who knows? Mbrownstein3485: you Hmm. Right. Right. Right. Okay. Right, right. Right. Well, and you're like, you could also be called the middle, you could be called the youngest, you could be called the oldest because of the way that, ⁓ Well, cool segue into parenting because, you know, as a 40 year old parent, you had three kids, you had a successful business, you ⁓ began to... Stanley Brownstein: Exactly. So I have all the attributes. So I'm very lucky. Mbrownstein3485: You made the decision to go to school and then you also made the decision after many years to reenter conversations with Joe. Is that his name? Fernando? Stanley Brownstein: Steve, yes. Joe was someone who was part of that group who was, but yes, yes. Mbrownstein3485: Steve. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So wondering if you can kind of set that up a little bit, you know, if you could remember that moments before and during the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, sure. I actually remember pretty distinctly. And we kind of talked about it a little bit before, so I feel like ⁓ that still holds. I just remember feeling kind of set. I felt that I was happy where you kids were at. was happy with where my marriage was. I was happy with how my work was going. And I was kind of getting Mbrownstein3485: Get into it. Cool. Right. Stanley Brownstein: So actually what I did too is also getting an inch too, because I had been trying to get a Tai Chi class that wouldn't detract from what I valued from what I learned ⁓ early on, which I was still doing. And I did find a school actually in Larchmont, which wasn't the same, but it was kind of close enough. But I was just kind of getting this energy, this itch to kind of do more. ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Sure, yeah. Stanley Brownstein: pursue something deeper than just the mundane responsibilities of life. I wouldn't say, it wasn't like a midlife crisis or anything like that. It was just more that I felt this yearning again where I'm pressed because I wasn't over, everything wasn't devoted to just taking care of business. And I... Mbrownstein3485: Right, right. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: So I called Fernando, I found out where he was. And he asked me if I was still, what's the word, engaged in self-observation, which was a big part of what non-judgmental self-observation, which is kind of like mindfulness. And it's... Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Right. Stanley Brownstein: I couldn't say I could give a yes or no answer, but I appreciated the question. I reread one of the books that were, you know, one of the basic Grugyevian, was more written by Ouspensky, but it was about Grugyev's work. And I started attending a group discussion that consisted of two for, it was like two couples, one, guy who didn't come with his wife, myself, he and Fernando and his wife. And we were meeting once a week on Tuesdays. And he would usually start this session with any questions. And no one would come in with questions. And ended up that. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: when mom and I, once mom joined, but especially in the beginning, I would ask questions because I was like so excited about being in a group so things would come up. But that became an interesting thing. And because he wanted us to think about it. He wasn't about him just lecturing to us, even though he ended up filling an hour and a half often with discussion. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: based upon the question or based upon no question. Mbrownstein3485: And then what was the group dynamic? Like what role did other people in the group play for you? Stanley Brownstein: All right, so probably not so much different than any group dynamic that you come across in life. So Joe was, I knew Joe and Susan from the initial group, the primary group. ⁓ So we were a subgroup, as I said, when we were in Glencove. Joe and Susan were initial students of the. ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: Right. Stanley Brownstein: the primary group. So I kind of deferred especially to Joe for his knowledge and his accomplishments. Then there was another couple who were in this school in Manhasset after we had already left. He Mbrownstein3485: you Okay. Stanley Brownstein: He was pretty successful. He was older than us. They were all older than us. And he, I think, was kind of humbled by a suicide that is of his son. So he was drawn to that, I think, for meaning. And then there was another gentleman who was also in the group. He was at the school, and I really didn't remember him, but mom did, and he just kind of stuck with it. Mbrownstein3485: Hmm. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: So the dynamics were pretty much, we deferred to Joe, we deferred of course to Stephen, his wife, and the other two were more, we even brought you to one of the couples, we hung out with them, they had a swimming pool out in the island. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, I remember out in Long Island, I remember they had a lot of Beatles albums. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah. Yeah, so it was that type of... So the dynamics, don't think... The dynamics were... I think everyone was there. Their common reason for being there was for the work gathering. And after that broke up, people pretty much didn't get together anymore. Mbrownstein3485: So what did you learn during that time? Stanley Brownstein: I think in many ways we learned how to live a studied life. ⁓ We learned to be honest about our... where we were coming from. We learned how difficult it was to be non-judgmentally self-aware. ⁓ We learned also what is possible when you are motivated to do something. You know, I was... I mean, I had three young kids during this. I had a practice that, you our income really depended upon. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: And I also ended up going to ⁓ acupuncture school in my 40s while I was continuing to do this. Also, we went through mom's cancer with this occurring. So really, kind of created an umbrella of meaning that encompassed a lot. And I kind of see that as being a very valuable and very Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: true relationship to the world. Not to hide in blind faith and hope, it's almost when you do meditation. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: You recognize that a lot of the chatter that goes on is something that brings you down a rabbit hole and has no reality. ⁓ But to test that in the world is a very valuable thing too. mean, we're always, that doesn't mean, it is work. mean, work is an appropriate. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: way to describe it, but I feel that even though I recognize that I felt I wasn't valuing it enough to stay in that setting, I don't feel that I regretted all the time and money I spent doing it, nor the lessons I learned, nor the effort to continue to try to ⁓ develop it. Mbrownstein3485: I that. For, for, for this, for this part, I feel like we're, nearing the end. I'm wondering just to play around with this idea of, is, thinking about our conversation, is there something from your reflection that could help to inform, we can call it a challenge or a, intention. for each for us for this week that maybe we can then come back to next week and reflect on. So like, for example, you you let you just said something about, you know, the wasted energy that comes from going down rabbit holes to a place where there is no, where there's that's not grounded in reality. So an intention to notice that would be. Stanley Brownstein: you Mbrownstein3485: an example, I don't know. So, wondering if you could take a moment, maybe give us a, assign us a challenge. Stanley Brownstein: All right, I think a good challenge is... ⁓ to see your reactions to things, ⁓ but to not label them as good or bad, just to feel them in your body. ⁓ And as often as you can to, I think breathing, feeling your body centered in the world, like if you're standing, feeling your body to your feet, or if you're sitting, feeling your body to your seat. ⁓ I mean, that mindfulness is, I think, a really valuable thing. And I think the big enemy to mindfulness is judgment, because you really don't want to see it. There was one interesting, really kind of ⁓ trivial phrase that was said once is like, If you're mindful that a branch is low. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: you automatically just bend to avoid it. And we're constantly ⁓ obfuscating ⁓ how we truly feel about things because we don't appreciate that that's not who we are. Those are just habits and that's just chatter and just... Mbrownstein3485: you Sure. you Stanley Brownstein: and our lizard nature, you know, as they say, where, but if you feel the stuff, you know, you know, you just feel your chest or you feel your stomach or, know, you feel yourself turn red or you feel the automatic response to being insulted, but you feel it, you don't judge it. You know, you don't even necessarily have to identify, you know, you don't have to label it. I think that's an interesting exercise. Mbrownstein3485: Right. you right? Cool, I'm into it. And then it'd be cool to report back and then see where that conversation takes us from there. Cool, all right, dad. Love you very much, thanks for making time. Stanley Brownstein: Very good. I like that. love you too. My pleasure. Bye bye.