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American Pie (1999) with Willz Talks · Left of the Projector

• 0:17
  Track 1: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,
• 0:21
  Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.
• 0:23
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  Track 1: you've got the best taste around.
• 0:38
  Track 1: Wherever you're listening, give us a rating and subscribe so you'll be notified
• 0:42
  Track 1: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. and now on to the show.
• 0:45
  Track 1: This week on Left of the Projector we're keeping it light and full of sex and
• 0:49
  Track 1: by that I mean we're discussing the 1999 teenage comedy American Pie directed by Paul Weitz.
• 0:55
  Track 1: This film was a smash at the box office netting $235 million on an $11 million
• 1:00
  Track 1: budget and I do wonder how much of that went to Eugene Levy's salary.
• 1:05
  Track 1: It stars Jason Biggs, Chris Klein, Natasha Lyonne, Tara Reid,
• 1:09
  Track 1: of course Eugene Levy, Shannon Elizabeth, and many more.
• 1:12
  Track 1: Our guest this week is will who you may know from instagram as will's talks
• 1:16
  Track 1: thank you for being here today happy.
• 1:18
  Track 2: To be yeah it's fantastic i got a pitch being like leftist movies and i was
• 1:22
  Track 2: like i need an excuse to watch a movie and talk about leftism it's great fun so and.
• 1:26
  Track 1: Like a good.
• 1:26
  Track 2: Light-hearted break from what i've been doing which is coverage of iran which is not as fun.
• 1:31
  Track 1: Yes i mean i do enjoy when we do a movie that's less serious too and this is
• 1:39
  Track 1: the complete opposite so i don't know do Do you want to tell people about your your Instagram?
• 1:44
  Track 1: Obviously, you do cover news stories and politics and that kind of thing.
• 1:48
  Track 2: Yeah, I do. I do a huge set of things. I do a lot of like current events stuff.
• 1:52
  Track 2: I do a lot of like anti-propaganda, like Zionists make an infinite amount of
• 1:56
  Track 2: content for me because I follow them and then I respond to them,
• 1:59
  Track 2: pointing out how silly and wrong they are.
• 2:01
  Track 2: And like trying to kind of build up people's response to imperial propaganda,
• 2:05
  Track 2: I guess, would be the biggest bit. And then making sure that like people even
• 2:08
  Track 2: like good meaning leftists don't report things poorly or wrongly or ways that
• 2:12
  Track 2: play into the hand of the imperialists we're working against.
• 2:15
  Track 2: So I guess that's the overarching thesis. And otherwise, I'm just a leftist
• 2:19
  Track 2: out here saying leftist things.
• 2:21
  Track 1: It's a very good service. And I think that I actually, I was remembering the
• 2:26
  Track 1: first video I think I saw when I came on your channel,
• 2:28
  Track 1: I think, was responding to people who say that we're taking a complete 180 from American Pie.
• 2:38
  Track 1: But I think, but it was about how you, people who talk about how Israel is controlling
• 2:42
  Track 1: the United States versus sort of the other way around.
• 2:45
  Track 1: And I'm like, man, people need to say that more because it drives me crazy when people say that.
• 2:50
  Track 2: Trying to pull in all these like a lot. There's a lot of populism around in America.
• 2:55
  Track 2: And, you know, the Nick Fuentesites are trying to pull it all in.
• 2:57
  Track 2: And I'm trying to like make a starch divide between those because it's so true.
• 3:01
  Track 2: Yeah. Like it's also that's American exceptionalism.
• 3:04
  Track 2: It's this idea that we somehow need like someone blackmailing all of our elites
• 3:07
  Track 2: to be evil as if they like won't do it voluntarily is a wild concept to me.
• 3:12
  Track 2: It's like they're they're pro bono evil people. Like they don't need they don't
• 3:17
  Track 2: need this like cabal controlling them to do genocide.
• 3:19
  Track 2: They'd love doing it. it's like their favorite hobby so yeah it's it thank you
• 3:25
  Track 2: i appreciate that was it it was a video i got some flack for but for from the worst people ever the.
• 3:30
  Track 4: Only yeah the only american exceptionalism that we really need to encourage
• 3:35
  Track 4: is the belief that america is exceptionally evil they don't need help they don't need anybody else.
• 3:42
  Track 2: Truly truly we are always It's consistently surprising me how horrible this empire can be.
• 3:49
  Track 2: It is the largest, most violent empire the world has ever seen.
• 3:52
  Track 2: But even then, I'm like, I don't know.
• 3:54
  Track 2: I see the Portuguese and I'm like, people don't know how horrible you were.
• 3:58
  Track 2: But at least they lost after a while.
• 4:00
  Track 4: Or the French.
• 4:01
  Track 2: Or the french oh that's allowed but it's shitting on the french i mean i'm very
• 4:05
  Track 2: pro shitting on the french but it is a bit it's a bit overdone but yeah yeah yeah people but.
• 4:11
  Track 4: People shit on the french for mostly the wrong reasons that's.
• 4:15
  Track 2: Yeah yeah they.
• 4:17
  Track 4: Shit on them for like all the wrong reasons.
• 4:19
  Track 2: Yeah it's not just that they're cringe and have bad food that they like committed
• 4:22
  Track 2: a bunch of genocide yeah um which not enough people talk about also their numbers
• 4:26
  Track 2: i'm happy to shit on their food their.
• 4:27
  Track 4: Numbers in french i mean make no sense and they're stupid.
• 4:31
  Track 2: You know what i i could get down with that though barring like barring the racism
• 4:37
  Track 2: and genocide i i i think silly language is good fun like that i'll i'll stake that flat i.
• 4:42
  Track 4: Will for the most part agree with you except when it comes to the french.
• 4:45
  Track 2: Yeah,
• 4:46
  Track 2: true true yeah and just wait until the right wing finds out how our numbers
• 4:51
  Track 2: are enumerated with arabic numerals they're gonna be going they're gonna be wild they.
• 4:56
  Track 4: Do that it keeps cropping up that crops up.
• 5:00
  Track 2: Like every few years.
• 5:02
  Track 1: Yeah so well i you picked american pie to discuss and so i'm curious why you chose it.
• 5:09
  Track 2: Yeah so i hadn't seen american pie i'd seen american pie
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  Track 2: two girls rules and i was like
• 5:15
  Track 2: so which okay great comparison
• 5:18
  Track 2: point by the way i love sequels top three sequels you
• 5:21
  Track 2: know sing to legally blonde to red white and blonde
• 5:24
  Track 2: the bible but it was like sequels are really good um so i was like i've seen
• 5:29
  Track 2: the sequel of this i might as well see the first one and also like american
• 5:31
  Track 2: pie come on like i'm always like i'm anti-american i'm trying to anti america
• 5:36
  Track 2: pill everyone this is a great thing to talk about like to deconstruct american
• 5:39
  Track 2: nationalism And like that was like the vague idea.
• 5:42
  Track 2: I knew it was kind of just like a classic period piece type vibe.
• 5:46
  Track 2: And it was it lived up to my expectations. You know, like what more could you
• 5:51
  Track 2: expect from such a thing of like someone fucking a pie as an allegory for vagina?
• 5:55
  Track 2: That's hilarious. And there's so much to say about that. And,
• 5:57
  Track 2: you know, I didn't know what I was going to go in, like to actually talk about.
• 6:02
  Track 2: I got a bunch. It was so on the nose.
• 6:04
  Track 1: I yeah I'm I'm very curious but I mean so I was going to jokingly ask because
• 6:10
  Track 1: the the sort of base premise or sort of the majority of this film is sort of
• 6:15
  Track 1: leading up to prom and so I'm going to ask a random question which one of out
• 6:20
  Track 1: of all of you did any of you go to your prom which prom I already know the building.
• 6:25
  Track 1: High school.
• 6:26
  Track 4: Yeah. But many high schools had both a junior and a senior prom.
• 6:32
  Track 3: No.
• 6:33
  Track 1: Okay. So I'll go with senior prom. I did. I went to. I also did.
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  Track 2: Yes.
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  Track 4: Did you? So, well, I think it's safe to assume you're, you're a little younger
• 6:41
  Track 4: than, well, like Evan and I and possibly Ward.
• 6:45
  Track 4: Are you of the promposal generation?
• 6:49
  Track 2: So I'm of that generation, unfortunately. But I.
• 6:54
  Track 2: Although, you know what? I will say, I prefer a promposal generation than a
• 6:58
  Track 2: gender reveal generation, and my generation is anti-gender reveal.
• 7:01
  Track 2: I'll give you that. So I'll take some pride in that. But I did not promposal.
• 7:06
  Track 2: I think it was kind of— Yeah.
• 7:08
  Track 3: That's what it was leading into.
• 7:09
  Track 4: Yeah, that was really the question, is whether you had to date.
• 7:13
  Track 2: I didn't promposal, because I—yeah.
• 7:15
  Track 4: Yeah, I showed them out.
• 7:17
  Track 2: I didn't promposal. I took a guy to prom in the South.
• 7:21
  Track 2: so it was i i was already i was already slaying enough i mean no one could like
• 7:27
  Track 2: that was set in stone very very interesting experience i was in a blue blue
• 7:32
  Track 2: city it was totally fine but you know i wasn't i didn't need to make it any cleaner than it was yeah.
• 7:37
  Track 4: They didn't exist when when i went to prom so i was.
• 7:40
  Track 2: Just well thank god well thank god which.
• 7:42
  Track 4: Is like yes i went to my i went to my both my junior and senior prom i.
• 7:47
  Track 1: Wasn't a judgment that wasn't why it wasn't like a.
• 7:49
  Track 4: Judgment I didn't think so to say I find prom movies fascinating because first I.
• 7:56
  Track 2: Do
• 7:57
  Track 4: Think that my prom especially like my senior prom experience was atypical but
• 8:03
  Track 4: I still like watch these movies and I'm like does anybody is anybody are their
• 8:07
  Track 4: lives like this like does anybody does prom exist like this in any reality like
• 8:14
  Track 4: I always wonder and especially like.
• 8:16
  Track 2: Oh I was like yes like this is very similar
• 8:19
  Track 2: to some of the people i knew that went to prom so maybe
• 8:23
  Track 2: we live in different realities but i was like no i
• 8:26
  Track 2: mean obviously no one was fucking a mother that i know yeah
• 8:29
  Track 2: you don't know it wasn't as far outside of the realm of possibility you know
• 8:33
  Track 2: i was in like a like a like a super like racially segregated white community
• 8:38
  Track 2: in prom like super like affluent this type of shit would happen it was um it
• 8:44
  Track 2: was relatable somebody's mom was everything though A nauseating culture in my...
• 8:50
  Track 2: Inevitably. Inevitably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:54
  Track 2: Some of the mom was trying to be too cool. It was actually very,
• 8:57
  Track 2: very, what I would really relate to is the mom in Mean Girls.
• 9:00
  Track 4: Yeah.
• 9:00
  Track 2: Who's like dancing along with her, her child. I'm like, yeah,
• 9:04
  Track 2: that, that, that is someone at my school.
• 9:06
  Track 4: Would yeah that's that's what i was thinking too it's it's just funny because
• 9:09
  Track 4: you know like this movie is very much like i mean this was for our youth evan
• 9:17
  Track 4: and i like this was like this is,
• 9:21
  Track 4: from our like you know this is this came out a year before i think either one
• 9:27
  Track 4: of us graduated high school so like yeah this is like that's wild this is like
• 9:32
  Track 4: like this is our adolescence this is the cultural zeitgeist of our adolescence,
• 9:38
  Track 4: which is fucking wild.
• 9:41
  Track 1: I know. It dated me. Yeah, it makes me feel extremely old.
• 9:46
  Track 1: And the thing I was going to ask, too, was do you think this was an accurate
• 9:49
  Track 1: portrayal of high school?
• 9:51
  Track 1: So for people maybe who don't know the context of the film, obviously we'll
• 9:55
  Track 1: talk about it, but it takes place in sort of a wealthy Detroit suburb.
• 9:58
  Track 1: And so I would imagine that in these types of places,
• 10:03
  Track 1: I think that maybe not this massive you know
• 10:06
  Track 1: mansion like they had by the by the lake but i think having these big parties
• 10:10
  Track 1: and you know this whole experience i think isn't that atypical you know it doesn't
• 10:15
  Track 1: necessarily mean that all of us experience that necessarily but i think it's
• 10:18
  Track 1: probably more common you know than maybe we realize i don't know that's just my thought.
• 10:24
  Track 2: Yeah i mean i would say i went to an after party that i slept over at after prom and
• 10:28
  Track 2: in a I did like it's a thing and
• 10:31
  Track 2: like it had a few people like with similar behaviors I think
• 10:34
  Track 2: it I think it happens and I was like not cool in
• 10:37
  Track 2: high school like I don't know like and I presume I'm not in
• 10:39
  Track 2: the company of many people that perceive themselves as cool in high school and
• 10:43
  Track 2: so I I think it did happen I don't know I don't know that's that's my perception
• 10:47
  Track 2: in like like affluent white suburbs this is like a experience I like I actually
• 10:52
  Track 2: think watching the movie I was like a lot of this fits into like my perception
• 10:57
  Track 2: at least of like the idealized form of america um that's around in those areas especially i.
• 11:02
  Track 4: Feel like warden i have such like we have warden i have like just like this
• 11:07
  Track 4: like ward didn't go to prop and like my experience because of who i was dating
• 11:11
  Track 4: at the time was like this is just like a totally different like experience yeah i.
• 11:17
  Track 3: Didn't really grow up around money.
• 11:18
  Track 4: Either i grew up in like bumfuck middle.
• 11:20
  Track 3: Of nowhere south like when we partied in high school it was on somebody's dear
• 11:24
  Track 3: lease like that's where we did it.
• 11:27
  Track 4: That's yeah that's a.
• 11:28
  Track 2: Big difference i.
• 11:29
  Track 3: Didn't experience any of this shit i could believe it happening especially around
• 11:33
  Track 3: people with money but like yeah i wasn't around that yeah.
• 11:36
  Track 1: I mean it's funny you were talking well before about the uh the idea of like
• 11:41
  Track 1: well from your what's your channel and
• 11:42
  Track 1: then into this is like american exceptionalism how do you see this film,
• 11:48
  Track 1: especially seeing it for the first time like i think if i had seen it for experience
• 11:51
  Track 1: for the first time i think maybe like the way you would perceive it might be
• 11:55
  Track 1: different not like in a bad way but how do you see it like fitting into american
• 11:58
  Track 1: exceptionalism because i think that was one of the things you sort of mentioned
• 12:01
  Track 1: ahead of time like nationalism and this whole kind of concept yeah.
• 12:05
  Track 2: So the nationalistic like overtone like okay i'll just i'll kind of like a front
• 12:09
  Track 2: load like my thesis on this film like regardless of.
• 12:12
  Track 1: Nationalism i like my thesis on this film is that it's.
• 12:14
  Track 2: Like the inception of incel culture. This is the incel film.
• 12:18
  Track 2: Like, if I was growing up watching, like, if I was like an incel,
• 12:21
  Track 2: even like in my generation, I was trying to be like, like, cool.
• 12:24
  Track 2: And like, in the same way fascists study history, like, this is something I
• 12:27
  Track 2: would watch and be like, yeah, bro, like, exactly.
• 12:30
  Track 2: So like, that's, and I have a bunch of notes on like, exactly what lines up
• 12:34
  Track 2: with incel culture on this.
• 12:35
  Track 2: But I think just the way that like, American men, but as to nationalism,
• 12:40
  Track 2: the particular plot point that like, was very nationalistic was the
• 12:42
  Track 2: plot point with the eastern european woman where they
• 12:45
  Track 2: basically like like film her like like in
• 12:48
  Track 2: an unconsensual manner and then like the way
• 12:51
  Track 2: that that's that's portrayed is both very inceli because like her
• 12:54
  Track 2: sexuality is not seen as embarrassing like for existing it's
• 12:57
  Track 2: like nina's performance but then when he does anything sexual it's
• 13:00
  Track 2: like embarrassing um and it's like very much how incels view sexuality but then
• 13:05
  Track 2: also like the the the characterization of eastern european women as the characteristic
• 13:12
  Track 2: of post-Soviet East-West relations. Yeah.
• 13:19
  Track 2: And then obviously the representation of like American pie as a nationalist
• 13:22
  Track 2: symbol of like, you know, like an object for the American man to, you know, fuck.
• 13:28
  Track 2: But other than that, like the nationalism, like talking about nationalism was
• 13:32
  Track 2: kind of actually surprisingly quite hard.
• 13:35
  Track 2: I didn't find a lot of a lot of really helpful nationalism things other than
• 13:40
  Track 2: the motivational speech where like patriotism and like nationalist like like
• 13:44
  Track 2: crescendos when he's like, we need to if we can get it.
• 13:48
  Track 2: we need to get it like the coach speaking that was very much like.
• 13:52
  Track 1: Oh yeah yeah that.
• 13:53
  Track 2: The way that.
• 13:54
  Track 1: That was like a that was like a meme before memes existed like when he repeats
• 13:57
  Track 1: what he says like you know the other coach is repeating him like you know well
• 14:02
  Track 1: so you know in a way i think it might be interesting because you're the so i
• 14:07
  Track 1: i wrote down all the characters and it seems very.
• 14:12
  Track 1: Like the incel concept you're talking about. So each of the characters seemingly
• 14:17
  Track 1: fits in like a completely different sort of stereotype of American, like a high school.
• 14:23
  Track 1: And it's interesting that somehow like they're all friends too.
• 14:27
  Track 1: I mean, I guess like tendentially through choir and other things,
• 14:31
  Track 1: each of them go through and maybe I'll like briefly go, I'll go through like
• 14:35
  Track 1: what I wrote that mostly is a sort of kind of what Wikipedia says as like the
• 14:38
  Track 1: character, but just sort of my perception of them too.
• 14:40
  Track 1: So you have the Jason Biggs character, sort of like this clumsy,
• 14:43
  Track 1: not great at school, but very Jewish coded because he has, you know,
• 14:47
  Track 1: his dad is obviously Eugene Levy.
• 14:49
  Track 1: And then you have Oz, who's like the jock, but he's also friends with the non-jocks.
• 14:55
  Track 1: Kevin is sort of, I would view as maybe, I mean, you can all,
• 14:59
  Track 1: you know, tell me what you think of these.
• 15:01
  Track 1: It's sort of like the good student and kind of a normal-ish kid.
• 15:04
  Track 1: And Stifler, of course, is like the asshole jock persona.
• 15:08
  Track 1: Finch was sort of like the wealthy kid. And then you have the band dork, which is Michelle.
• 15:13
  Track 1: Sort of Chuck, who, you know, gets humiliated later, is sort of like the nerd kid.
• 15:18
  Track 1: Vicky is sort of like the hot, smart, very naive.
• 15:23
  Track 1: Jessica was sort of like the, played by Natasha Lyonne, sort of like floats
• 15:26
  Track 1: between all the cliques.
• 15:28
  Track 1: It's sort of like cool, almost feels like she's older than the rest of them.
• 15:32
  Track 1: And then Heather, the other girl in the choir, is sort of like the goody two-shoes.
• 15:36
  Track 1: and these all represent to me just this wildly different perceptions of what
• 15:41
  Track 1: high school was like so i'd.
• 15:43
  Track 3: Say finch was like a hipster not the rich kid.
• 15:47
  Track 1: Interesting okay um.
• 15:49
  Track 3: And stifler is the rich asshole jock.
• 15:52
  Track 1: Yes he was like that's.
• 15:54
  Track 4: Right yeah i never like oh yes stifler i never got the impression that finch
• 15:59
  Track 4: was rich not that i mean not that it really matters he.
• 16:03
  Track 1: Doesn't get rich vibes.
• 16:04
  Track 4: No um I'm just kind of like uptight. I find it interesting that you...
• 16:12
  Track 4: peg jason biggs as like jewish coded
• 16:15
  Track 4: because like other than the fact that like eugene levy
• 16:18
  Track 4: is you know like jewish and like
• 16:21
  Track 4: it is very like you know i feel like it's
• 16:24
  Track 4: a part of his persona as like
• 16:27
  Track 4: an actor even like as a public figure but like
• 16:30
  Track 4: we get no notion of
• 16:33
  Track 4: that in the movie like the only reason and
• 16:37
  Track 4: like i'm not disagreeing with you because i still took
• 16:40
  Track 4: that in as well and like the entire time i'm watching i'm like i'm like am i
• 16:46
  Track 4: just reading this because i know eugene levy you know like or is there something
• 16:51
  Track 4: about this character that they want us to think that and i'm just just curious on that.
• 16:58
  Track 1: He also was very technologically smart i
• 17:02
  Track 1: mean i don't know i mean no what do you think well
• 17:04
  Track 1: the these like characterization of or even like the jason
• 17:07
  Track 1: big's character maybe that's like projection like i'm a i'm a jewish myself
• 17:12
  Track 1: and i remember seeing it as a teen and thinking like oh like eugene levy is
• 17:17
  Track 1: like this funny you know jewish actor and then you have like his son obviously
• 17:21
  Track 1: is a jewish kid too so maybe it's like projection for me the.
• 17:25
  Track 3: Character is james levenstein so there's like another.
• 17:27
  Track 1: Yeah.
• 17:28
  Track 4: I'm sorry wait what's his last name,
• 17:30
  Track 4: levenstein see i didn't know that okay see that changes everything okay ignore everything i said.
• 17:36
  Track 2: Yeah i didn't know that.
• 17:37
  Track 4: I didn't know his last.
• 17:38
  Track 2: Name was that.
• 17:39
  Track 3: Do they ever mention.
• 17:40
  Track 4: His last name.
• 17:42
  Track 3: Like once i think in full.
• 17:44
  Track 2: Yeah i.
• 17:45
  Track 4: Didn't know that.
• 17:46
  Track 2: Can i know all the all the men have last
• 17:49
  Track 2: names only like two of the women have last names which is
• 17:52
  Track 2: like obviously this is sexist i'm not gonna keep repeating
• 17:55
  Track 2: that it's sexist because that's a given that it's like a 2000 like
• 17:58
  Track 2: male fantasy movie whatever like it's
• 18:01
  Track 2: very obviously sexist it's horrible but just as a note this i just realized
• 18:05
  Track 2: this that yeah um like only vicky latham and uh michelle uh flority um have
• 18:12
  Track 2: last names or and uh and the mother stifler but heather jessica and nadia don't have last names but.
• 18:18
  Track 4: Stifler's mother doesn't actually stifler's mother may have a last name but
• 18:23
  Track 4: she basically doesn't have a name She is basically just identified as Stifler's mom.
• 18:30
  Track 4: The only reason we know her name is like, like that's, you know.
• 18:34
  Track 3: Subsequent films.
• 18:35
  Track 4: Yeah. Like she is completely dehumanized, like 100%.
• 18:39
  Track 1: All the, all the women you mentioned that don't have last names,
• 18:43
  Track 1: I feel like are 100% more objectified than any of the other women.
• 18:48
  Track 1: Not that they all aren't in some way in this film, I think, but,
• 18:51
  Track 1: you know, especially like Nadia as this Czech student, extremely sexualized,
• 18:56
  Track 1: you know, they're, you know,
• 18:58
  Track 1: abuse the, you know, the taking me on a, on a, the live cam,
• 19:03
  Track 1: you know, without her knowing about it. And then, I don't know.
• 19:06
  Track 1: I mean, I think maybe I should have led at the top too, like very sexist movie,
• 19:11
  Track 1: not yet misogynistic, you know, all the things you'd expect from a film from 1999.
• 19:16
  Track 3: Enough surprisingly american pie 2 passes the bechdel test.
• 19:19
  Track 2: Yeah i i think it's interesting to talk about exactly how um but also yeah like
• 19:25
  Track 2: i think it's a tie between vicky latham and heather but what surprisingly american.
• 19:30
  Track 3: Pie 2 passes the bechdel test.
• 19:35
  Track 2: That's genuinely surprising because it's just a direct inverse of this.
• 19:38
  Track 4: Is that what it is i don't remember it at i think i saw it i don't wait.
• 19:44
  Track 3: I watched it today i subjected myself to it.
• 19:48
  Track 4: Why i.
• 19:50
  Track 3: Got time off man i don't know.
• 19:51
  Track 4: What the fuck to do with myself.
• 19:52
  Track 3: When i got this much time honestly it's.
• 19:55
  Track 2: Not horrible i trust that it's like bad as like a thing i've watched it like
• 19:59
  Track 2: three times like across different contexts.
• 20:02
  Track 3: I'm not gonna lie i i have a favorite moment from more from the second one than
• 20:07
  Track 3: anything from the first like what.
• 20:09
  Track 2: Were the were the sex toys going off.
• 20:11
  Track 3: No that's my favorite no when fucking jason big bigs glues himself to himself
• 20:17
  Track 3: and then the has the vhs tape glued to his hand.
• 20:20
  Track 4: Oh i remember that oh.
• 20:21
  Track 3: That's pretty good hilarious physical comedy so fucking funny.
• 20:25
  Track 4: I i'm.
• 20:27
  Track 1: Gonna have to re-watch just watch that clip tomorrow because.
• 20:29
  Track 4: I find save.
• 20:31
  Track 3: Yourself the time.
• 20:32
  Track 4: I find the michelle character to be the
• 20:35
  Track 4: most interesting representation of people
• 20:38
  Track 4: like high school like her character
• 20:41
  Track 4: is by far the most interesting to me especially because i
• 20:44
  Track 4: know for a fact that uh in reality i mean
• 20:47
  Track 4: except at least in my reality that i
• 20:50
  Track 4: grew up in band people were the horniest people in high school and the most
• 20:57
  Track 4: yeah like that the portrayal of the band nerds is so oddly accurate but also not,
• 21:10
  Track 4: in a negative way like it's such a weird her portrait it it feels like an outlier
• 21:17
  Track 4: in the entire thing like her character she feels like an outlier to me well.
• 21:21
  Track 1: I have another note later that may be different but go ahead well.
• 21:24
  Track 2: Yeah i i was gonna say i think maybe i'm too maybe i'm
• 21:27
  Track 2: like i want to fit it all into a superstructure but like i think i think
• 21:29
  Track 2: she makes a lot of sense i think it may like in the
• 21:32
  Track 2: way that this is if you like characterize this as an incel film
• 21:35
  Track 2: the role that the band nerd is taking
• 21:38
  Track 2: and especially the fact that at the end she leaves him
• 21:41
  Track 2: like high and dry yes um as like the bit makes a lot of sense in terms of like
• 21:47
  Track 2: how incels see women and how they see especially like if you like like go like
• 21:52
  Track 2: punch down you know like what will happen to you if you like punch down then
• 21:56
  Track 2: like you won't be like a permanent relationship or like women like the this you know all that stuff i.
• 22:00
  Track 4: Think i was uh tainted by the metatextual knowledge that like within the canon
• 22:06
  Track 4: of the American pie movies, uh, they get back together and I believe get married in the end.
• 22:12
  Track 4: So, you know, that might've, uh, take it, that might've, you know,
• 22:16
  Track 4: might've affected my viewing of her character.
• 22:20
  Track 1: The Pi-verse?
• 22:22
  Track 4: The Pi-verse, yes. I can't believe I know these things. I have not seen...
• 22:28
  Track 1: Well, the one is called American Wedding. I mean, it's pretty, like...
• 22:32
  Track 3: It's not great.
• 22:33
  Track 4: Why do I know this?
• 22:36
  Track 1: This is another thing, too, because you're talking about sort of maybe the stereotypes,
• 22:40
  Track 1: and I think a lot of them are fitting these stereotypes or archetypes.
• 22:44
  Track 1: Then this is also a story that I know from before. So John Cho,
• 22:48
  Track 1: who people know mostly from or often know from the Harold and Camargo to White
• 22:54
  Track 1: Castle, and he's like the MILF guy.
• 22:56
  Track 1: I think that's how he's credited in the movie as, you know, coining the term MILF.
• 23:01
  Track 1: Apparently, the director who made Danny Liener, who made Harold and Camargo
• 23:06
  Track 1: to White Castle, wanted to pick, chose John Cho to audition for that Asian character in that movie.
• 23:12
  Track 1: because in this film like unlike most high school films asian characters are
• 23:17
  Track 1: often made into like a stereotype and made fun of and in this they don't actually
• 23:21
  Track 1: do that which is i mean good i heard it here first on left on the back for not
• 23:26
  Track 1: being racist but maybe you know uh.
• 23:35
  Track 4: It's shocking though like it is like it is such an interesting thing though
• 23:39
  Track 4: it's like because it's Like I, as watching there, I don't remember what point
• 23:43
  Track 4: it was, but there was a point where I was like, oh, this is, this is an incel movie.
• 23:48
  Track 4: Like I did have that same thing. I was like, oh, this is an incel thing. This is this.
• 23:53
  Track 1: Kevin, Kevin. Do you see him as like the, the, like the main.
• 23:57
  Track 4: It is Kevin's character. Kevin's character is so incel coded in such like a deep, deep seated way.
• 24:06
  Track 4: and everything he talks about right down to like the part in the prom where
• 24:12
  Track 4: like he is still on it and everyone else is just like, you know,
• 24:16
  Track 4: grow the fuck up and he's like no i'm still
• 24:20
  Track 4: gonna be mad about it and it's like but like
• 24:23
  Track 4: it's just wild but it's like they're so hyper fixated on being terrible in very
• 24:30
  Track 4: specific ways in seldom came like in seldom became an established phenomenon around the same time.
• 24:40
  Track 2: Who's to say like.
• 24:41
  Track 4: It so like you know i want
• 24:44
  Track 4: i want you to you know give your whole like theory
• 24:47
  Track 4: but like i've read you know about this like you're
• 24:51
  Track 4: obviously you're familiar with like the woman who like coined the term correct yes
• 24:54
  Track 4: okay so and you know like she
• 24:57
  Track 4: didn't anticipate this it was not the intention it was not her intention she
• 25:01
  Track 4: is much like the man that invented golden doodles very much regretting her creation
• 25:07
  Track 4: if you don't know about that yeah the guy that invented golden doodles is like
• 25:10
  Track 4: i should never have done this it was a terrible mistake um uh in 2018,
• 25:18
  Track 4: in 2018 is like when she like started i'm
• 25:21
  Track 4: that's what she was talking i'm sorry in 2018 is when she's like talking
• 25:24
  Track 4: about how so this started around 1997 um when she was like right it was like
• 25:30
  Track 4: a mailing list and a blog and then by 2000 it'd been passed off to somebody
• 25:37
  Track 4: else and then kind of metastasized into what we know now as incel culture.
• 25:44
  Track 2: Yeah. I was just listening to the Behind the Bastards on this.
• 25:46
  Track 4: Released in 1999.
• 25:47
  Track 2: Shout out OtherPod. But very good episode on Behind the Bastards with CoolSum Media on incels.
• 25:53
  Track 2: They went through the whole etymology of it. It was wild.
• 25:57
  Track 4: So your thesis, Will.
• 25:59
  Track 2: Okay. The film, like going through the whole film, it starts with the biggest
• 26:03
  Track 2: offense to an incel possible, right? Which is an ugly man getting laid.
• 26:08
  Track 2: You know, like that is the impetus of this whole thing is like an ugly guy gets laid before them.
• 26:13
  Track 2: And they're like, this is not right. This doesn't align with my worldview.
• 26:17
  Track 2: And that's the incel worldview that like it's a sexual market, you know?
• 26:21
  Track 2: and so they they all go through what is
• 26:24
  Track 2: effectively looks maxing or different approaches gesture maxing looks maxing
• 26:29
  Track 2: right fraud maxing a series of things to to get women not a single one of them
• 26:35
  Track 2: at any point ever asks a woman what they like ever you can go through the whole
• 26:40
  Track 2: film they never ask a woman the closest they get is what i.
• 26:44
  Track 1: Think that guy oz at one point was like oh what what do you like but then they
• 26:49
  Track 1: sort of immediately don't show you what she says so.
• 26:52
  Track 2: When like in bed like the only the closest is when uh like what is what is his
• 26:58
  Track 2: name uh myers is eating out his girlfriend and is like oh do you like this and
• 27:04
  Track 2: then she just like moans that was the closest i saw okay.
• 27:07
  Track 4: Oz attempts to get the college girl to i guess go down on him when he says,
• 27:14
  Track 4: suck me beautiful, which like.
• 27:18
  Track 2: Oh, Oz is the closest to humanizing a woman.
• 27:21
  Track 4: Yeah, because then the college, the college woman, the college girl literally
• 27:26
  Track 4: says to him, like, that's not the way you talk to women.
• 27:29
  Track 4: And he actually listens to her.
• 27:32
  Track 4: He actually, like, yes, he joins the glee club or whatever, the vocal jazz club
• 27:41
  Track 4: or whatever as a means of, like, ingratiating himself with women.
• 27:47
  Track 4: but his like entire approach to it is of the least dehumanizing and the least
• 27:54
  Track 4: because like in the end like he actually does like work on himself he actually
• 28:00
  Track 4: does grow as a character more than any other character in this entire movie yeah.
• 28:07
  Track 3: He's the only redeemable one of the group.
• 28:08
  Track 4: A hundred percent all.
• 28:10
  Track 1: Right so we'll back to the thing i need to need to know this so okay the First
• 28:15
  Track 1: is the ugly guy gets laid. So what happens after that?
• 28:18
  Track 2: That's true of all incels, by the way. They all hate this, you know?
• 28:22
  Track 2: They all think that there's like a natural order. So yeah, that's the start.
• 28:26
  Track 2: And then Stifler is the Chad, by the way.
• 28:29
  Track 2: Like, this is the most controversial part of this theory. But Stifler,
• 28:32
  Track 2: he actually, like, at the beginning, also fucks.
• 28:34
  Track 2: He's the only one that canonically gets laid without going through this process, right?
• 28:40
  Track 2: He fucks at his parties previously, right? and he's like the model for all of
• 28:45
  Track 2: them and it also starts with violence to the Chad by making him you know drink
• 28:51
  Track 2: the cum which is just which the audience is meant to identify with.
• 28:54
  Track 4: My god yes oh my.
• 28:57
  Track 2: God,
• 28:58
  Track 2: So, like, incels hate chads because they see them as competition.
• 29:02
  Track 2: They hate people who are getting laid who are seen as below them because they
• 29:07
  Track 2: see it's, like, outside of the natural order, right?
• 29:09
  Track 2: And then this is them trying to, like, look max or whatever.
• 29:13
  Track 2: Like, the multiple approaches there are to things. And then one of them becomes
• 29:18
  Track 2: nihilistic and ends up getting with the band girl. And he gets rewarded for
• 29:23
  Track 2: that, for punching down.
• 29:25
  Track 2: But then he gets punished at the end by her leaving. And then also,
• 29:28
  Track 2: I also want to note, they never ask a woman, the dad, do we,
• 29:31
  Track 2: we literally never hear a word out of the, um, the Levenstein out of Jim's mother.
• 29:36
  Track 1: She just screams. Like she says like one thing, like, can I come in or something?
• 29:40
  Track 1: And then she screams and runs out.
• 29:42
  Track 2: Yeah. She's like, she is not a character. Whereas like, it's once again,
• 29:45
  Track 2: the, the man giving the advice, the only dialogue is between like men.
• 29:49
  Track 2: It's also, um, what is this? Kevin Myers.
• 29:53
  Track 2: He gets his advice from like the book. Right. So even when he's trying to figure
• 29:56
  Track 2: out what women like, he doesn't ask them.
• 29:58
  Track 2: He asks other men for the secret to treat women as an object and just how to eat them out well.
• 30:04
  Track 2: Which, by the way, straight men, yes, do this research. You could also just ask a woman.
• 30:10
  Track 2: I'm in support of straight men learning this. I'm in support of straight men wearing deodorant.
• 30:15
  Track 2: To that extent, looks maxing, yes. If looks maxing means being a tolerable human
• 30:19
  Track 2: being. Were there any other really good examples of this?
• 30:24
  Track 2: Yeah, but going through this whole thing of seeing it as them trying to increase their SMV...
• 30:29
  Track 2: pretty much explains like quite a lot of the dynamics that are going on between the four of them.
• 30:34
  Track 1: And kevin the way his sort of like story arc
• 30:37
  Track 1: goes he's complaining the whole time about how he can't get
• 30:39
  Track 1: laid his you know his girlfriend won't sleep with him and then
• 30:43
  Track 1: when they finally do and they break up he plays like the
• 30:45
  Track 1: scorned person who's now going to go off to college and be like a miserable
• 30:50
  Track 1: incel i mean he's like yeah the the he's just he's been a woman has hurt him
• 30:56
  Track 1: even though like it was generally mutual they like have this long-distance relationship
• 31:00
  Track 1: it's not gonna work also she was probably too cool for it but i mean.
• 31:04
  Track 3: Even before that like near the end like kev's the one who's all like whenever
• 31:08
  Track 3: they find out the shermanator fucked which he didn't at the time but like he's
• 31:13
  Track 3: like oh i put in all this time it's like it shows that same mentality like he's such a piece of shit.
• 31:18
  Track 2: Yeah also kevin like this
• 31:22
  Track 2: is like the only people that actually enjoy sex are
• 31:25
  Track 2: Oz and Stifler because
• 31:29
  Track 2: Jim gets left at the end like all the merit that right Kevin gets punished for
• 31:37
  Track 2: like having sex emotionally because like he was forced to like say I love you
• 31:40
  Track 2: or whatever and then he left you know so everyone else gets punished for doing
• 31:44
  Track 2: anything other than being a cuck or a chad.
• 31:46
  Track 4: Okay this is fascinating and to take it to the next level I want to talk about
• 31:53
  Track 4: the screenwriter of this movie, whose only credits are,
• 31:58
  Track 4: American Pie, American Pie 2, American Wedding, American Union,
• 32:04
  Track 4: American Pie Presents, Girls' Rules, two other things.
• 32:07
  Track 4: Go Fish, a show which made five episodes and like two of them were aired,
• 32:15
  Track 4: and My Best Friends Girl,
• 32:18
  Track 4: which features Dane Cook as Sherman Tank Turner,
• 32:23
  Track 4: a helpline operator with a side business of taking
• 32:26
  Track 4: ladies on nightmarish dates and it
• 32:29
  Track 4: has Jason Biggs in it okay this movie this
• 32:32
  Track 4: man is like I think
• 32:35
  Track 4: that we could make a reasonable assumption that
• 32:38
  Track 4: this man isn't isn't incel and like this is his career like his like all he
• 32:46
  Track 4: has done is write movies about like how men are like deserve like should just
• 32:52
  Track 4: get you know like they deserve sex and women are you know victimizing them because they're not he.
• 32:57
  Track 1: Was 27 when he wrote this movie too so he was like sense post-college you know
• 33:02
  Track 1: didn't get a girl in college and you know blames everything and so this is him
• 33:06
  Track 1: being able to relive his high school experience by.
• 33:09
  Track 4: Actually getting the girl.
• 33:11
  Track 1: Maybe i don't know who he is in the movie in the movie who's his character kevin it's.
• 33:16
  Track 4: Every like it's shocking like looking at this it's shocking.
• 33:20
  Track 2: Man yeah no
• 33:24
  Track 2: i think um yeah i i think it's i think they hit on a bunch of like kind of classic
• 33:28
  Track 2: tropes like i mentioned like the eastern european girl being like a madonna
• 33:32
  Track 2: no it'd be like oh like not not madonna whore um as like that archetype um of
• 33:38
  Track 2: just being a pure sexual object, right?
• 33:40
  Track 2: With absolutely seemingly no offense to having been exposed on a webcam,
• 33:44
  Track 2: right? Like there's a scene later.
• 33:46
  Track 4: Yeah, she's totally okay with it.
• 33:47
  Track 2: She's totally okay with it, allegedly. And also women are watching on the webcam.
• 33:51
  Track 2: They cut to women watching on the webcam, which is, and I was like,
• 33:56
  Track 2: this is obviously like women would not, like they would go and tell their friend
• 34:01
  Track 2: that they're being like, like sexually abused.
• 34:04
  Track 2: It's so it was like clear, it's clearly written very much by a man.
• 34:08
  Track 2: with like not even attempting to think about in reality
• 34:11
  Track 2: how women act and this is like just like the
• 34:14
  Track 2: very foundation of incel ideology which is like and even
• 34:17
  Track 2: even um the guy who ends up getting with the mother right like
• 34:21
  Track 2: mothers are seen as like like like milf is
• 34:23
  Track 2: like a term for a reason they're seen as like the peak sexual like object
• 34:26
  Track 2: like the like they're ungettable um and it's like an
• 34:29
  Track 2: effect and it's actually much more being only defined as
• 34:32
  Track 2: someone's mother you're literally you're literally just doing
• 34:35
  Track 2: an offense to that guy it's like fucking their girlfriend right and
• 34:39
  Track 2: so he did that through like be what like
• 34:42
  Track 2: not not jester maxing some might say but like you know like like nuance maxing
• 34:47
  Track 2: like like kind of doing this particular like uh like uh what is he what did
• 34:53
  Track 2: i write down like being very like oh i know i know scotch i know all of these
• 34:57
  Track 2: things um and increasing your value in that way.
• 35:00
  Track 4: It is explicitly made clear within the film that by having sex with his mother,
• 35:08
  Track 4: he is claiming, like he is dominating him. Like it is explicit in the film.
• 35:13
  Track 4: It is not, it is not hinted at. Like it is very much, there is not a single
• 35:18
  Track 4: woman in this movie with the exception of Heather who are,
• 35:24
  Track 4: who is not treated by the,
• 35:29
  Track 4: like the, the men as like property or just like an object.
• 35:36
  Track 4: like Oz and Heather's relationship the only thing that comes close to you know
• 35:40
  Track 4: like they have actual like conversations he fucks up he apologizes he works
• 35:46
  Track 4: on like you know and she actually has like,
• 35:51
  Track 4: the wherewithal and like the autonomy to be like fuck you like calls him out
• 35:57
  Track 4: on shit and like you know books and things beyond it it's yeah yeah.
• 36:03
  Track 2: There's also jet so on heather i agree but she also never stands up for herself
• 36:08
  Track 2: um she's not written to stand up for herself right he just like realizes he
• 36:12
  Track 2: was wrong why did he realize he was wrong because a man talked to him the coach um.
• 36:17
  Track 4: She stands up to him when she sees him when she sees him talk when when she
• 36:23
  Track 4: at she leaves lacrosse game and she sees um yes oh yeah yeah she she also straight
• 36:31
  Track 4: up she's like i don't want to see you and she cuts him off i.
• 36:34
  Track 3: Mean even when he volunteers for like the duet she's like comes up to him he's
• 36:38
  Track 3: like what are you doing this for it's like well this is like isn't you gotta
• 36:42
  Track 3: actually practice like you got to make this thing happen like.
• 36:45
  Track 4: Yeah that's.
• 36:46
  Track 2: True okay point point point taken.
• 36:48
  Track 1: I think oz so all of them all of the characters in this feel like they deserve
• 36:55
  Track 1: or expect to get sex from someone except for oz maybe at the beginning he did
• 37:01
  Track 1: but as i think you said before bill or maybe will the fact that he like actually
• 37:06
  Track 1: has a somewhat of a character growth he
• 37:08
  Track 1: like he actually changes his behavior whereas later i don't i think he actually
• 37:12
  Track 1: genuinely is doing things because he wants to like he doesn't actually have
• 37:16
  Track 1: sex because you know the the the,
• 37:19
  Track 1: worst version of this would be he makes heather
• 37:22
  Track 1: you know sleep with him in some way as opposed to just sort of she's not ready
• 37:26
  Track 1: yet so we're not gonna you know we're not gonna do it but they all have this
• 37:29
  Track 1: expectation and um there's something else i was going to mention about the like
• 37:35
  Track 1: him them sharing the feed of Nadia is,
• 37:40
  Track 1: there something in incel culture to a you know like almost sharing,
• 37:45
  Track 1: um I don't know what the word I'm thinking of sort of like um,
• 37:49
  Track 1: sexual conquest yeah but he doesn't even but initially he's not actually sharing
• 37:54
  Track 1: her at first he's just gonna watch the video camera at his friend's house and
• 37:58
  Track 1: then when she seems like maybe he could you know go back he does.
• 38:02
  Track 2: I don't know it's something i i mean i it fits into the dehumanization where
• 38:06
  Track 2: like the women aren't seen as characters they're seen as objects right and like
• 38:10
  Track 2: they're seen also as collective objects like in in many ways in cell culture
• 38:14
  Track 2: is very individualistic but also the whole entire bit is like built on forums
• 38:18
  Track 2: talking to each other They're about how to get women.
• 38:19
  Track 2: And that's this whole movie where it really doesn't matter which woman.
• 38:23
  Track 2: It really doesn't matter how it happened. It just matters that you do.
• 38:27
  Track 2: And a success for one, that's the point of the pact, is a success for all of them.
• 38:32
  Track 2: If one of them fucks, that is just as fulfilling as the other ones.
• 38:36
  Track 2: So they're seen as kind of collective property.
• 38:38
  Track 2: The only time that is broken is when someone below them is seen to a fuck or
• 38:43
  Track 2: someone above them. Right.
• 38:45
  Track 2: But amongst them, just as Myers's brother has solidarity with them and the father
• 38:52
  Track 2: of Jim has solidarity with them, all of them are kind of seen as like collectively the everyman.
• 38:59
  Track 2: And they're also who the audience is written to align with.
• 39:02
  Track 2: I also want to note the only other woman that isn't directly a sexual object is Jessica.
• 39:08
  Track 2: Right. The person that is paid.
• 39:11
  Track 2: i don't know i'll say this is a queer person i think she's written as a lesbian
• 39:14
  Track 2: or as queer of some form um if you look at how she's dressed and she.
• 39:19
  Track 4: Never has does.
• 39:20
  Track 2: She ever have any sexual things.
• 39:22
  Track 4: No yes she does she does not have any in the film but they are it is specific
• 39:29
  Track 4: it is directly addressed that she has sexual experience she um if she is written
• 39:35
  Track 4: as queer it is specifically It is queer in the sense that, um,
• 39:41
  Track 4: not, you know, not that she is lesbian, but that a queer in a,
• 39:45
  Track 4: a sociopolitical sense and a liberatory sense and that she may be, you know,
• 39:51
  Track 4: either bi because it is, it is made clear that she has had sexual experience
• 39:57
  Track 4: with men and like, not like, oh, you know, like, yeah, I've had sex with a man, but I actually prefer.
• 40:02
  Track 4: no she is self like she is self-possessed she owns her sexuality um.
• 40:12
  Track 2: Yeah i think i think that's accurate i was tricked by the hat.
• 40:16
  Track 1: Well she she's giving it i mean she's giving advice to vicky and then later
• 40:21
  Track 1: when she gives finch the little um the flask she's sort of like oh he's like
• 40:26
  Track 1: oh and he she she basically says like you know i'm not gonna sleep with you
• 40:29
  Track 1: and he's like oh i you of course not and so i sort of took that to mean well go ahead i.
• 40:34
  Track 4: Just i just think this is a cultural thing it was the 90s um everybody dressed like that um so.
• 40:40
  Track 2: That had such a choice
• 40:43
  Track 2: you know like it's incredible it's kind of incredible i will say i stick by
• 40:48
  Track 2: i think she is like written as she's written like as not a sexual object in
• 40:54
  Track 2: the film um and the only way you get away with that as being queer in some way
• 40:57
  Track 2: could be socio-political or some other,
• 41:00
  Track 2: like, I don't actually know how to describe that archetype, but she certainly
• 41:04
  Track 2: is like a best friend. Yeah.
• 41:06
  Track 4: She is, in my eyes, she is the,
• 41:10
  Track 4: it's the like i'm not like other girls like she is the archetype that is like
• 41:17
  Track 4: it's she's the outsider in a lot of ways and it's the kind of like you know
• 41:22
  Track 4: she has separated herself from the whole thing and she has seen that way um.
• 41:30
  Track 1: That's where i said before at the beginning she sort of like floats between the
• 41:33
  Track 1: different friend group because she doesn't seem to have any connection
• 41:36
  Track 1: to one of them because maybe they all see her as kind of
• 41:39
  Track 1: an outcast i mean she's friends with uh vicky i mean i
• 41:42
  Track 1: realized that but seems like she had because she also is the one spreading the
• 41:46
  Track 1: rumors for money so clearly i think that's why i thought that um finch was rich
• 41:51
  Track 1: because he has like the 200 bucks to give her to spread the rumors maybe that's
• 41:55
  Track 1: what anyway yeah i mean that does seem like a lot that'd be a lot of money in 1999 i.
• 42:01
  Track 3: Just think of the line where it's like wire uh this is like the uh like all
• 42:05
  Track 3: the cottage on the lake this is the whole reason we were friends with stifler
• 42:08
  Track 3: all these years it's like they didn't have that money.
• 42:11
  Track 1: Yeah that's true that's true yeah and stifler gets a bus to take them to the
• 42:15
  Track 1: house too like it's an insane uh you know just all of that is insane well chad yeah i.
• 42:24
  Track 4: Was going to talk about incel culture.
• 42:25
  Track 1: Oh okay and.
• 42:26
  Track 4: And how in this, especially at this time, it was still very much in its nascent form.
• 42:33
  Track 4: And there was that sense of like, as you said, well, like, you know,
• 42:39
  Track 4: being on like chat boards and message boards and like talking about ways of advancing, of getting,
• 42:46
  Track 4: you know, like getting a girl, whatever.
• 42:49
  Track 4: And prior to this, incel culture was not solely male dominated.
• 42:54
  Track 4: it was it didn't it was it was more about people who just alone didn't matter your gender but
• 43:03
  Track 4: As time went by, and this is what you see now.
• 43:08
  Track 4: Incel culture has metastasized in a way that is far different than this,
• 43:12
  Track 4: whereas now there is no community in the like, oh, we're here to support each
• 43:19
  Track 4: other in moving forward.
• 43:21
  Track 4: It's like, no, we are here to commiserate and demonize the opposite sex and
• 43:30
  Track 4: to reinforce the notion that not only so like because we didn't,
• 43:38
  Track 4: you know, we can't get the girl.
• 43:40
  Track 4: Now we're just going to constantly like reinforce that you shouldn't even and
• 43:46
  Track 4: that it's actually bad and demonize women.
• 43:49
  Track 4: And if anybody breaks out of that mold, they are torn down and they are forcibly
• 43:55
  Track 4: ejected and demonized themselves because there is, you know,
• 44:00
  Track 4: it is gotten is way beyond what it started as, which was already fucking bad.
• 44:04
  Track 4: And now it's even, you know.
• 44:09
  Track 4: It's really become this notion of the aggrieved party,
• 44:15
  Track 4: which is like what has dominated American culture, the idea that you're the
• 44:21
  Track 4: victim, even if you are in power, even if you're the privileged party,
• 44:26
  Track 4: you're the victim, and you can hold that over oppressed people.
• 44:30
  Track 2: Yeah i mean if if we want to get like a bit
• 44:33
  Track 2: technical about incel culture there are three the like the
• 44:36
  Track 2: psl score um the do you know about this at
• 44:39
  Track 2: all like how they rate their like whatever like
• 44:42
  Track 2: their faces no i've not i've not heard the psl score okay so
• 44:45
  Track 2: i i've watched too much clavicular once again because a lot of
• 44:48
  Track 2: what i do is undermining right-wing propaganda and unfortunately this like nasty
• 44:51
  Track 2: ass eugenics speaking of eugenics by the way there are only two black people
• 44:56
  Track 2: that speak in this film i think the choir teacher and another choir person i
• 45:01
  Track 2: think who's coded as gay um because he kind of tells what is written i view as his boyfriend and.
• 45:06
  Track 1: Then there's the asian character for the male flying.
• 45:09
  Track 2: Yes so great representation everyone good work american pie hey.
• 45:12
  Track 3: We already established this film is progressive.
• 45:14
  Track 2: It's woke it's woke it's a woke film,
• 45:20
  Track 2: But, uh, it's, uh, the PSL score, it's, it's like, like your canthal tilt is
• 45:27
  Track 2: worth a certain amount, the amount of like your nose arches.
• 45:30
  Track 2: And like, it's, it's, if you've ever seen the Chad picture and like what human
• 45:34
  Track 2: faces like they think are meant to look like, it's like you're far deviation away from them.
• 45:37
  Track 2: But PSL has actually nothing to do with like the actual things.
• 45:42
  Track 2: It stands for the three forums, which like in cell culture as a whole came from.
• 45:47
  Track 2: Right. Which is pickup artist hate.
• 45:50
  Track 2: That's like the OG one. And then which is split off into slut hate.
• 45:54
  Track 2: Right. Which is the type of thing you're talking about, which is just like explicitly
• 45:57
  Track 2: like women, like women are the problem.
• 46:00
  Track 2: It is like this feminism and then also just like straight up women.
• 46:03
  Track 2: And then it became and then looks maxing PSL.
• 46:06
  Track 2: Right. And I think those are three kind of like maybe stages,
• 46:10
  Track 2: but then also like approaches that are happening here, which is like pickup
• 46:13
  Track 2: artist hate is like, oh, I tried to learn it and they suck.
• 46:17
  Track 2: Like all of this advice sucks. And I think at a certain point,
• 46:20
  Track 2: like that's where pickup artist hate started out pretty innocuous being like pickup artists suck.
• 46:24
  Track 2: But it's like the type of people that want pickup artists are complaining about
• 46:27
  Track 2: them. So then they all come together and they're like, oh, but like maybe let's try.
• 46:31
  Track 2: But also it sucks. and that's a little bit what that's a little bit what like
• 46:35
  Track 2: Jim ends up in right he's like I tried all the stuff I tried like everything.
• 46:40
  Track 2: Fuck it I'm gonna go with the girl that I'm not actually that attracted to but
• 46:43
  Track 2: like she's the only one left right and Kevin is,
• 46:48
  Track 2: I would say is doing looks maxing, right? He's like, he's like,
• 46:52
  Track 2: like, like sex maxing, like he's like learning how to eat pussy.
• 46:55
  Track 2: And like, that's like, he's trying to be better just so he can increase his sexual value.
• 47:00
  Track 2: So he doesn't have to say I love you, which is the biggest fear of any of these men to be a human.
• 47:04
  Track 2: And then like, so like, like slut hate is like, just the explicitly misogynist
• 47:09
  Track 2: stuff didn't like come out where it's like just women.
• 47:11
  Track 2: I think Jim represents a little bit of that um and then
• 47:14
  Track 2: oz like is kind of like trashed on by the guys a little
• 47:17
  Track 2: bit for like like cuck maxing i think
• 47:20
  Track 2: it was what the term might be which is or gesture maxing
• 47:23
  Track 2: you know like you're just like you're going and you're singing that's silly
• 47:26
  Track 2: you're just doing the thing that females want you know how dare you um you're
• 47:31
  Track 2: not like being a chad you're like singing and somehow it works um and then like
• 47:36
  Track 2: he's also played off as like you know uh this suddenly becoming a human which
• 47:41
  Track 2: is like a little shamed as well there's.
• 47:42
  Track 1: No red pills in this movie right like this is like the matrix came out the same
• 47:45
  Track 1: year as this so they hadn't coined well.
• 47:47
  Track 2: Yeah none of the actual like things of insult culture
• 47:50
  Track 2: are here right but all of like the energies all of the all of the underlying
• 47:53
  Track 2: presuppositions like it was striking to me how much how similar was and i think
• 47:57
  Track 2: there are other ways you can read this um but it was like they are involuntary
• 48:02
  Track 2: celibates that's like the entry point of this is like we want to get laid which
• 48:06
  Track 2: in fairness is like high school i.
• 48:07
  Track 1: Mean Even if it wasn't, even if incel culture was only like in its infancy,
• 48:12
  Track 1: where, as you said, Bill, about the person who wrote the screenplay,
• 48:16
  Track 1: the people existed, it just, there was no term for this, right?
• 48:21
  Track 1: So, I mean, it's just sort of like, if an incel that could write
• 48:27
  Track 1: raunchy male misogynistic characters
• 48:30
  Track 1: in a funny screenplay did was like
• 48:32
  Track 1: capable of doing that i think this is the product of
• 48:36
  Track 1: that i mean i it's kind of hard after all the
• 48:38
  Track 1: things you're saying well i'm to not see it in
• 48:41
  Track 1: that way even if i just
• 48:44
  Track 1: i don't know if i wonder whether the the writer meant it
• 48:47
  Track 1: to be that way or just sort of one of these things we talk about a lot on the
• 48:50
  Track 1: show is a character a writer might put sort of neoliberal ideas into a anti-communist
• 48:56
  Track 1: it's not necessarily because they're trying to but that's just how they that's
• 49:00
  Track 1: their perception of the world yeah his perception of the world is this so the.
• 49:04
  Track 4: Notion of i'm like the notion of
• 49:07
  Track 4: separating art from the artist is a false notion
• 49:10
  Track 4: like i'm sorry you i
• 49:14
  Track 4: know people post-modernist people they're gonna
• 49:16
  Track 4: fucking disagree with that and they're wrong like they're
• 49:20
  Track 4: just wrong you're incorrect your
• 49:23
  Track 4: opinion on this is wrong you cannot separate
• 49:26
  Track 4: the art from the artist i say this as a person who
• 49:29
  Track 4: writes and creates things and does creative
• 49:32
  Track 4: stuff and i have literally written stuff and then gone back and read it and
• 49:37
  Track 4: be like i didn't even intend to put that in here i didn't intend to write this
• 49:43
  Track 4: allegorical thing that references something else i didn't intend that But looking
• 49:49
  Track 4: at it now, I'm like, oh, no,
• 49:51
  Track 4: that's what that is. You cannot separate art from the artist.
• 49:54
  Track 4: I cannot believe that you can't write these movies and then not in some way
• 50:01
  Track 4: have in your brain those things. It's impossible.
• 50:06
  Track 2: Jk rowling.
• 50:07
  Track 4: Is an anti-semi she wrote the goblins that way end of conversation.
• 50:12
  Track 2: She was incredibly diverse in her racism it was kind of like yeah she covered all specks like,
• 50:19
  Track 2: she really did like she's a dei fascist it's
• 50:22
  Track 2: incredible absolutely no but i i
• 50:25
  Track 2: agree i so i don't i also think like i think
• 50:28
  Track 2: the way the media covers incel culture as if it's some like you know
• 50:31
  Track 2: you can draw a circle around it's just these freaks online it's not
• 50:33
  Track 2: accurate it's how a bunch of men talk about
• 50:37
  Track 2: all the things all the time and it's just
• 50:39
  Track 2: like a natural consequence of it and this is something incels will
• 50:42
  Track 2: talk about themselves they're like we just take what is already
• 50:45
  Track 2: assumed to be true right which is like life's better if you
• 50:48
  Track 2: look like a straight white male you know things like things that are generally
• 50:51
  Track 2: like true in society and taking them to their logical conclusion and
• 50:54
  Track 2: like we see how they get there and a bunch of people
• 50:57
  Track 2: did it a bunch of times and so i think like when
• 51:00
  Track 2: i'm saying like it fits this and this and this it's that they all just doing
• 51:02
  Track 2: a very similar thing um i are the other
• 51:05
  Track 2: like thing here is the
• 51:09
  Track 2: way i also know it's not like like actively trying to
• 51:12
  Track 2: make a comment is with how individualistic like america is
• 51:16
  Track 2: the way they also look max is like they all get each other condoms like he's
• 51:19
  Track 2: handing out condoms right to all of each other and he's yeah and he's and he's
• 51:25
  Track 2: like like they're planning together um and they're like i i think at one point
• 51:29
  Track 2: they like get like mouthwash together or something like to like make kissing better yeah.
• 51:33
  Track 1: They're all like in the in the hot dog restaurant like yeah.
• 51:36
  Track 2: Yeah yeah so like they have community but only to be the worst people ever um
• 51:41
  Track 2: it's very american that's so true you know we have socialism only for the military
• 51:45
  Track 2: like we only have mutual aid when it's like to conspire to commit sexual offenses
• 51:51
  Track 2: against women and it was just so deeply american i was like oh.
• 51:58
  Track 1: Setting aside.
• 51:59
  Track 2: The pie the pie thing was random by the way you know he just went into that
• 52:03
  Track 2: and he was like i want to see someone fuck a pie.
• 52:05
  Track 1: Well i have a question did you watch the non the non-rated version or like the
• 52:09
  Track 1: regular version do you know i.
• 52:10
  Track 2: Don't know i saw i saw his bare ass on a pie but i don't know.
• 52:13
  Track 1: Okay so that's then that's the unrated one so the original one in the theater
• 52:18
  Track 1: he's just standing up in the kitchen with it just against whereas the unrated
• 52:22
  Track 1: one he's like lying on top of that pie yeah yeah he's getting into it like the,
• 52:27
  Track 1: the you know the unrated one that they've released later what else and what.
• 52:32
  Track 4: Else is in the unrated that's not in that's the only.
• 52:35
  Track 1: One i have no idea i'm guessing maybe like the the strip scene with with her
• 52:40
  Track 1: is like maybe slightly more explicit yeah that's.
• 52:43
  Track 4: Pretty yeah okay yeah.
• 52:46
  Track 1: I don't think that would have flown in an r-rated movie at the time and maybe
• 52:52
  Track 1: either i don't know what else there I'm sure he can find what's in the,
• 52:55
  Track 1: in it, but yeah, I wonder how many pie takes they had to have for that.
• 52:59
  Track 1: That's like, he also just ruined his entire life.
• 53:01
  Track 3: I mean, he calls that out. It's in fucking Jane, Silent Bob, Shrek Back.
• 53:07
  Track 1: Yeah.
• 53:07
  Track 4: To be fair, Jason Biggs is a shitty person and he just.
• 53:13
  Track 1: Is he?
• 53:14
  Track 4: Yes.
• 53:15
  Track 1: I, I didn't know.
• 53:16
  Track 4: Like.
• 53:16
  Track 1: I mean, I'm not surprised.
• 53:18
  Track 4: Jason Biggs has a history of doing shitty things and saying shitty things publicly,
• 53:25
  Track 4: um, and publicly embarrassing other people and using other people as like the
• 53:30
  Track 4: butt of jokes, including, um,
• 53:33
  Track 4: there was a pretty like,
• 53:36
  Track 4: uh, public thing about.
• 53:39
  Track 1: Oh does it was it when he didn't he say something uh i'm gonna go to his wikipedia
• 53:44
  Track 1: page oh so he he made jokes about the missing malaysia airlines flight and then
• 53:50
  Track 1: another one that was also he mocked the death of someone on bachelorette so
• 53:55
  Track 1: he seems to just he also have a really publicly terrible along with.
• 53:59
  Track 4: His wife basically like uh without their consent like,
• 54:06
  Track 4: involved like a couple like sex
• 54:08
  Track 4: workers in some kind of like prank or some shit like that yeah he's a bad.
• 54:12
  Track 1: He's also a zionist yes he's.
• 54:14
  Track 4: A shitty person.
• 54:15
  Track 1: He signed he signed the uh no hostage left behind on october whatever when they signed that thing so.
• 54:22
  Track 4: He's a shitty person so i'm glad his his career never picked up again really successfully fucker.
• 54:29
  Track 1: So it's like a slightly like maybe lighter note but i
• 54:32
  Track 1: think maybe in the context of all this what do you make of
• 54:35
  Track 1: we haven't talked about the eugene levy character so apparently as like
• 54:38
  Track 1: a creating of this he read the script and said i'm not doing
• 54:41
  Track 1: this film and then he said you know maybe i'll do it
• 54:44
  Track 1: if you let me change the character so all of
• 54:47
  Track 1: his lines are basically ad-libbed so none of them were
• 54:49
  Track 1: really scripted for him and originally the dad was supposed to be more of one
• 54:54
  Track 1: of those um sort of uh what's the term sort of over the top you know i'm going
• 55:01
  Track 1: to be your friend dad but then he wanted to make it take it to like this more
• 55:05
  Track 1: comedic sense of trying to have these sex conversations with him.
• 55:09
  Track 1: Instead, instead of being the mean girl mom, it's this character, you know?
• 55:14
  Track 1: And so I don't know how he fits in and how his advice works.
• 55:20
  Track 1: impacts his character the the role of jim what do you think i.
• 55:26
  Track 2: Don't even remember what he actually ends up like saying like what is he what
• 55:31
  Track 2: is like what does the advice end up being i know that he's kind of like the
• 55:34
  Track 2: straight man for like a lot of
• 55:35
  Track 2: jokes or like he's like walks in to him fucking a pie and being like oops.
• 55:39
  Track 1: The first one is he brings him a bunch of porn magazines
• 55:42
  Track 1: oh yeah it's just basically describing different
• 55:45
  Track 1: magazines he's like this one is called shaved as you can see you know and and
• 55:50
  Track 1: then later he brings him uh he gives is he i think they sort of have before
• 55:55
  Track 1: he goes to prom he's basically giving him the advice of like wear a condom but
• 55:58
  Track 1: also like the tennis allegory that's it the tennis analogy what's that yeah.
• 56:03
  Track 3: It's like it's it's fun but it's not a game just not a game.
• 56:10
  Track 1: I think his best, the best line from Eugene Levy was when after he comes in
• 56:14
  Track 1: and he's fucking the pie and they look at them, like they have the scene of
• 56:17
  Track 1: them at the table and the pie is just destroyed.
• 56:19
  Track 1: I can't believe they didn't throw it away immediately.
• 56:21
  Track 1: It's just sitting on the table where they're going to eat dinner.
• 56:24
  Track 1: But he says, you know, we'll just tell your mom we ate, we ate it all.
• 56:27
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 56:28
  Track 1: I just, that line just, I don't know. Just, uh, on. Can't tell if it's funny or just disturbing.
• 56:33
  Track 2: I i thought it was hilarious i thought it like that was like that was
• 56:36
  Track 2: one of the like bad like things i could genuinely laugh at because i was like
• 56:39
  Track 2: this is not like my woke self doesn't actually find this reprehensible yeah
• 56:44
  Track 2: like i'm too woked up to like really enjoy a lot of i'm like ah this is not
• 56:49
  Track 2: a but um but uh i i do become like a blue haired like lip whenever i'm reading
• 56:53
  Track 2: these and being like this is sexist this is not this is not acceptable.
• 56:56
  Track 4: That's what warden i just call or ward refers to as we're just being miserable marxists yeah.
• 57:02
  Track 2: Like we can't enjoy anything and like him fucking a pie at least was
• 57:05
  Track 2: good but i will say like the woke take on the pie is like
• 57:08
  Track 2: where that came from was someone mentioned that like like like third base was
• 57:13
  Track 2: like a warm pie is like and then he's like oh this is what pussy will feel like
• 57:17
  Track 2: um which like i can't attest to but i presume not and he and so he fucks a pie but like that's,
• 57:27
  Track 2: like the name of the movie is American pie because it's an allegory for vagina.
• 57:31
  Track 2: And, um, I just find it interesting that like they, they, we're saying they
• 57:36
  Track 2: objectify women in many ways, they treat women as objects, but like the whole
• 57:40
  Track 2: movie is named after a literal object, which is an allegory for the thing they're going for.
• 57:44
  Track 2: Um, and so in a way it's very random, but in another,
• 57:47
  Track 2: like the whole entire thing is literally them just like thinking they are a
• 57:50
  Track 2: woman and thinking that them like eating the pie eventually or fucking the pie
• 57:54
  Track 2: um will be like their reward for doing everything right um also one of the few
• 57:58
  Track 2: times we hear from the mother making the pie.
• 58:00
  Track 1: Which is sort of the complete opposite
• 58:04
  Track 1: of thinking of don mclean's song
• 58:07
  Track 1: american pie it's sort of like taking that song and just
• 58:10
  Track 1: absolutely shitting on it in a version of like we're
• 58:13
  Track 1: just gonna fuck the thing that you were trying to critique you know of the war
• 58:18
  Track 1: and the terrible things about america and i mean i don't think that came into
• 58:22
  Track 1: their mind i'm sure at some point the name might have the movie might have come
• 58:26
  Track 1: later after they had that scene they're like oh america pie you know i don't i don't know but.
• 58:31
  Track 4: Yeah the movie fuck i forget what he originally.
• 58:38
  Track 1: Was there a different name for the movie originally i could know.
• 58:41
  Track 4: I mean the original movie was untitled teenage sex comedy that can be made for
• 58:46
  Track 4: under 10 million dollars that most readers will probably hate but i think you
• 58:49
  Track 4: will love that's literally like i'm not joking like that's it's a mouthful but that's really fun.
• 58:58
  Track 1: He apparently wrote the he wrote the screenplay it said in three weeks um and then.
• 59:04
  Track 4: It was changed to great falls but that was then renamed america.
• 59:10
  Track 3: Great falls equally.
• 59:12
  Track 1: I guess they live in right surely.
• 59:14
  Track 4: As like a waterfall. I think that is, it's based on his, like the writer of,
• 59:23
  Track 4: Like, this is based on his, like, senior year of high school,
• 59:26
  Track 4: his, like, memory, and, like, inspired by his senior year of high school.
• 59:32
  Track 4: Which, again, we return to—.
• 59:33
  Track 3: He was Shermanator, wasn't he?
• 59:37
  Track 4: Like, we return to, like, you cannot separate art from the artist. This man—yeah.
• 59:44
  Track 1: Can we also mention, I think it has to be mentioned, is that the band playing
• 59:49
  Track 1: at the prom was called Arabian Nights. It's with a bunch of white people wearing
• 59:54
  Track 1: turbans and singing super racist songs.
• 59:58
  Track 1: And they said in the commentary about it that that was just meant to be like
• 1:00:01
  Track 1: the lamest prom you could think of.
• 1:00:03
  Track 1: But they're like, oh, maybe we'll just make the most racist prom we can think of. That was so bizarre.
• 1:00:09
  Track 4: Truly bizarre.
• 1:00:09
  Track 2: I didn't notice that.
• 1:00:11
  Track 4: When they cut to that lead singer with the giant turban, I was like,
• 1:00:14
  Track 4: what the fuck? What am I watching?
• 1:00:17
  Track 4: What the fuck is going on? Also, Blink-182 is in this.
• 1:00:22
  Track 2: On american pie like i i think if you
• 1:00:25
  Track 2: think about the movie like in the context of the name of the movie like american
• 1:00:28
  Track 2: pie is like ed with the dad he's kind
• 1:00:31
  Track 2: of respected even if he's kind of like awkward and like has his
• 1:00:34
  Track 2: own like weirdness as like a guy who has fucks fucked
• 1:00:38
  Track 2: and like does fuck and like can chill out because he
• 1:00:40
  Track 2: fucks you know and like that's like like like
• 1:00:44
  Track 2: what they're trying to become um and a lot of the movie can be
• 1:00:47
  Track 2: read as like them trying to become this like whatever type of
• 1:00:50
  Track 2: man fucks and gets like gets
• 1:00:53
  Track 2: women and like all the different ways you can do that and they have absolutely
• 1:00:56
  Track 2: no good examples of that but like american pie being like this like kind of
• 1:01:00
  Track 2: idealistic representation of like becoming a man in like the very american way
• 1:01:05
  Track 2: um and then all of them in their very in a classic teenage like like comedy
• 1:01:09
  Track 2: stumbling around and failing to do it.
• 1:01:12
  Track 4: I find the eugene i find eugene levy's character very interesting but also kind
• 1:01:17
  Track 4: of contradictory because, and I think that stems from the fact that,
• 1:01:22
  Track 4: he empathized most of his or all
• 1:01:24
  Track 4: of his shit like because he the
• 1:01:29
  Track 4: he's making the attempt to be
• 1:01:33
  Track 4: a like actual like role model and be
• 1:01:36
  Track 4: like you need you should be responsible and not
• 1:01:39
  Track 4: shaming him he doesn't shame him and
• 1:01:42
  Track 4: he's like be responsible and also like
• 1:01:45
  Track 4: you know like you should
• 1:01:48
  Track 4: have a partner you know like he it's kind
• 1:01:51
  Track 4: of like he's he doesn't fit like any he doesn't i i feel like he doesn't fit
• 1:01:58
  Track 4: into like a lot of it like perfectly he doesn't work perfectly because and i
• 1:02:03
  Track 4: think i think because eugene levy wouldn't do the script originally and he was
• 1:02:10
  Track 4: like well i'm what I want.
• 1:02:11
  Track 4: And I don't think Eugene Levy is, well, honestly, I, we watched that video that
• 1:02:17
  Track 4: like Evan shared about Eugene Levy talking about this.
• 1:02:20
  Track 4: Eugene Levy found the original script disgusting.
• 1:02:23
  Track 4: And like the, the, the, the character
• 1:02:26
  Track 4: of the father, he found his behavior disgusting and wouldn't do that.
• 1:02:32
  Track 4: And like, so then he brings what he brought to it, which was try to stay within
• 1:02:38
  Track 4: the emotional context of the film –.
• 1:02:41
  Track 4: Also be like at least somewhat of a decent you know father figure kind of you know role.
• 1:02:48
  Track 1: He tries to do the right thing i mean i think he's trying and it's i mean you
• 1:02:52
  Track 1: know talking to your kid and bringing them pornography magazines it's you know
• 1:02:58
  Track 1: uh i assume that was in the script but then what he said to him maybe during
• 1:03:02
  Track 1: that scene was different so i mean i bring my.
• 1:03:05
  Track 4: Kid porn but she's a dog so like she doesn't even know what the fuck's going on you know.
• 1:03:10
  Track 2: Just pictures of dogs uh i also think the like you have to have a partner advice
• 1:03:17
  Track 2: is fundamentally weird um because like what do you mean like what do you mean
• 1:03:20
  Track 2: by like is he trying to encourage him to want to fuck like i i you know that was.
• 1:03:27
  Track 4: Weird because i'm just like does he think that his son wants to.
• 1:03:32
  Track 2: Just masturbate that's exactly the no exactly he's.
• 1:03:36
  Track 3: Worried that his son is just a fucking loser who's just spending all his time
• 1:03:40
  Track 3: jacking off and he's like hey you know there's women out there right.
• 1:03:45
  Track 2: Yeah but.
• 1:03:47
  Track 4: Like the implication is not like that he can't but that like that's what he wants it's so funny.
• 1:03:51
  Track 2: Yeah this.
• 1:03:53
  Track 4: Is his goal is.
• 1:03:54
  Track 2: There's by the way the implication that married people don't masturbate
• 1:03:57
  Track 2: as well he's like i don't because now i have a wife like it's a very odd i don't
• 1:04:04
  Track 2: know it's a very odd thing to say um because it's not representative of i think
• 1:04:09
  Track 2: any form of reality where teenage men like teenage boys have to be encouraged to want a partner in.
• 1:04:15
  Track 1: Some weird way his advice eugene levy's advice almost is trying to steer him
• 1:04:20
  Track 1: away from being an incel in some ways like you can have a partner and like have
• 1:04:25
  Track 1: a committed relationship like me.
• 1:04:27
  Track 2: Yeah and.
• 1:04:28
  Track 1: He doesn't take his advice.
• 1:04:29
  Track 2: I agree if that's what he said but like it read a lot more like using parental
• 1:04:34
  Track 2: shame to be like but you want to fuck right like that's what i and like,
• 1:04:41
  Track 2: It kind of had the tone of advice, and I think it makes sense if he ad-libbed
• 1:04:45
  Track 2: it, because it had the tone of being a father that's trying to do the right
• 1:04:49
  Track 2: thing and trying to tell you how to engage in that relationship responsibly.
• 1:04:52
  Track 2: Objectively, that's not a responsible—being masturbating isn't as ontologically
• 1:04:58
  Track 2: good as sex is not a message anyone believes. I don't know. It's a strange thing.
• 1:05:05
  Track 2: yeah oh i also wanted to know just this came
• 1:05:08
  Track 2: up is the rules they set for the pact one line
• 1:05:12
  Track 2: stuck out being like it has to be real consensual
• 1:05:15
  Track 2: sex right and they're by the way they're counterfactuals
• 1:05:19
  Track 2: like a sex worker which has its own commentary on whatever but also the fact
• 1:05:23
  Track 2: that they only care about consent insofar as it is pleasing the other men like
• 1:05:28
  Track 2: like because they do violate the consent of the woman by like like filming her
• 1:05:32
  Track 2: but like they only care about like earning it to like gain the respect of men.
• 1:05:36
  Track 4: Everything about i mean like to
• 1:05:39
  Track 4: put within the context of like the larger system
• 1:05:43
  Track 4: everything about this is just about power
• 1:05:46
  Track 4: and impressing other people you see as
• 1:05:49
  Track 4: having power and the only people that you
• 1:05:53
  Track 4: know within this system that men see as
• 1:05:55
  Track 4: having power are other men and like
• 1:05:58
  Track 4: that's all it is that's like the entire like looks maxing
• 1:06:01
  Track 4: thing i can't believe i said that word out loud i'm fucking 45
• 1:06:05
  Track 4: years old that never come out of my mouth before my life um like the entire
• 1:06:10
  Track 4: like or like all of that it's like the it's all done for the male gaze all of
• 1:06:19
  Track 4: it but it's all done for this for the straight male gaze,
• 1:06:26
  Track 4: gays g-a-y-s yeah yeah sure yeah i got you yeah no i know.
• 1:06:35
  Track 2: Yeah whenever anyone sells male gaze i go hell yes brother yes not.
• 1:06:40
  Track 4: No the wrong the bad kind i.
• 1:06:42
  Track 2: Don't know these twinks are out here the peter tealites they're around if you
• 1:06:49
  Track 2: don't think peter teal is on reddit being like what's my psl score i don't know
• 1:06:53
  Track 2: what you're living in yeah when he's not scouting twinks.
• 1:06:57
  Track 4: It's all done for the male gaze. That's all, it's only done for the appreciation
• 1:07:02
  Track 4: and like risk, you know, like the appreciation of other men.
• 1:07:07
  Track 4: That's it. It is, it is like truly the notion of like,
• 1:07:14
  Track 4: and what we've talked about before, like it's alienation and how,
• 1:07:18
  Track 4: like when you become alienated and when you don't understand,
• 1:07:22
  Track 4: when individualism leads to emotional stunting, because you can't,
• 1:07:28
  Track 4: you know, like we are fed this line that the only way you can be who you really
• 1:07:33
  Track 4: are is to like be yourself.
• 1:07:35
  Track 4: And, you know, like you, you just work on yourself and you just,
• 1:07:38
  Track 4: you know, and it's like, no, being hyper individualist emotionally stunts you.
• 1:07:43
  Track 4: And it makes impossible for you to become a full person because you are never
• 1:07:51
  Track 4: capable of looking beyond a very shallow and, you know,
• 1:07:59
  Track 4: sheltered, uh, and stymied kind of like perception of behavior and waste that
• 1:08:06
  Track 4: you can interact with other people, because that's how you grow as a person
• 1:08:10
  Track 4: is by engaging with other people.
• 1:08:13
  Track 4: And that's how you can, you know, develop. And it's like in this,
• 1:08:17
  Track 4: you're only looking at one perspective. That's it.
• 1:08:19
  Track 4: It's just this specific thing and beyond that none of it matters.
• 1:08:22
  Track 2: Um and within particular parameters right i
• 1:08:26
  Track 2: also think like yeah yeah like they're not
• 1:08:28
  Track 2: actually this is i i think something get people get wrong talking about insults
• 1:08:32
  Track 2: as well is i think it's absolutely not about what the woman thinks i think that's
• 1:08:36
  Track 2: true although they are terrified of being embarrassed like it is genuinely psychic
• 1:08:42
  Track 2: damage to them when a woman perceives them poorly that i think is like true
• 1:08:46
  Track 2: they can be really negatively affected,
• 1:08:48
  Track 2: like when he like comes really quickly in front of the whole school.
• 1:08:51
  Track 2: Like it is partially because he's like embarrassed about what the girl next
• 1:08:54
  Track 2: to him thinks, partially because
• 1:08:55
  Track 2: everyone's watching and it's like friends will look down on him for it.
• 1:08:59
  Track 4: I think it's for the same kind of thing. It's because now you've been made to
• 1:09:04
  Track 4: feel less by a person you perceive of as lesser.
• 1:09:09
  Track 4: The fact that they are now looking down on you is an attack.
• 1:09:14
  Track 4: It is the, it is why it is why, you know, we have, if we were to,
• 1:09:20
  Track 4: you know, to look at, you know, the circumstance now of like,
• 1:09:24
  Track 4: you know, how the shooting in Minneapolis by that ice agent. Right.
• 1:09:29
  Track 4: And we look at his history and why he reacted that way. Why did he react that way?
• 1:09:36
  Track 4: Partly because he saw somebody that he felt he had been previously slighted
• 1:09:44
  Track 4: by a person within her position,
• 1:09:46
  Track 4: a lesbian woman that he sees as lesser than him has now put him in his place and shown him.
• 1:09:57
  Track 4: So he reacted violently and angry because how dare this lesser being looked down upon me.
• 1:10:04
  Track 2: And in a more lighthearted example, we have Clavicular doing so many roids, he can't even come.
• 1:10:10
  Track 2: And I don't know if you all know this plot line. He doesn't even like fuck women.
• 1:10:14
  Track 2: Did you know Clavicular?
• 1:10:15
  Track 4: I don't know who that is.
• 1:10:17
  Track 2: Did you not see Clavicular gets frame-mogged while jester-gooning and like this tweet go around?
• 1:10:22
  Track 3: Anyone on the podcast?
• 1:10:23
  Track 4: I don't know what any of those words mean.
• 1:10:25
  Track 3: I know some of those words. But I know you're losing Bill.
• 1:10:31
  Track 4: I don't know what any of that means.
• 1:10:34
  Track 2: And no one frame mogged frame
• 1:10:37
  Track 2: mogged anyone anyone clav is like the
• 1:10:40
  Track 2: like new incel on the block but he like is like a 19 year old that is clearly
• 1:10:44
  Track 2: just like has a special interest and looks maxing and is like the worst person
• 1:10:47
  Track 2: you've ever met um he went on adam friedman's show like he's like going really
• 1:10:51
  Track 2: popular um he also ran like a person over with his car but it's legal in florida
• 1:10:55
  Track 2: apparently it's suspected that peter.
• 1:10:57
  Track 3: Teal is his uh sugar daddy.
• 1:10:58
  Track 2: You know what totally would expect it by
• 1:11:02
  Track 2: like that's so peter teal-esque i would love to find
• 1:11:05
  Track 2: out that like those two are speaking because that would make so
• 1:11:08
  Track 2: much sense but like clavicular like famously takes so
• 1:11:10
  Track 2: many roids that he doesn't like ejaculate with
• 1:11:14
  Track 2: like functional semen so obviously this
• 1:11:17
  Track 2: isn't about like be like getting with women
• 1:11:20
  Track 2: this doesn't work like he took so many like human growth hormones like he has
• 1:11:23
  Track 2: erectile dysfunction like he's way too open online by the way i would love to
• 1:11:26
  Track 2: not know this about anyone but here we are so it's it's absolutely not about
• 1:11:30
  Track 2: actually doing it he said accurately it's more about the opportunity to because
• 1:11:35
  Track 2: it's a status symbol and that's this whole movie it's like bill like achieving that status he's.
• 1:11:39
  Track 4: From new jersey.
• 1:11:40
  Track 2: That would make sense he lives in florida now good.
• 1:11:45
  Track 4: Fuck off to florida that.
• 1:11:47
  Track 1: Makes more sense actually.
• 1:11:48
  Track 2: Truly truly yeah.
• 1:11:50
  Track 4: That doesn't make.
• 1:11:50
  Track 2: Sense will.
• 1:11:51
  Track 4: Don't talk shit about my home state.
• 1:11:55
  Track 2: Oh, God. Oh, no, I will. Like, New Jerseyites, say what we will about New Jerseyites,
• 1:11:59
  Track 2: I'll say nothing because of the following.
• 1:12:00
  Track 2: They are the most loyal to their, like, you would think it was promised them 2,000 years ago.
• 1:12:05
  Track 2: The extent to which New Jerseyites will defend New Jersey is wild for being the armpit of New York.
• 1:12:11
  Track 4: Like, it's ridiculous. Like, Evan, delete this episode. It's done.
• 1:12:16
  Track 4: We're done. We're done here.
• 1:12:20
  Track 2: You can't even put like pump your own gas and you have patriotism about a state.
• 1:12:26
  Track 4: I can that's wild that's why i don't have patriot but i don't need to but i don't see and.
• 1:12:33
  Track 3: That yeah that's why i believe the material conditions of not having to pump
• 1:12:37
  Track 3: your own gas in new jersey has led to the reason why new jersey drivers suck
• 1:12:41
  Track 3: ass at driving they got to.
• 1:12:42
  Track 4: Suffer some hardship sorry ward we do we know that you're wrong on this and
• 1:12:48
  Track 4: you don't actually think the new jersey drivers are bad the rest of you are
• 1:12:51
  Track 4: bad at driving you are not fucking prepared for us that's what it is,
• 1:12:58
  Track 4: there's more of us and yeah we're the most patriotic for our state because we
• 1:13:03
  Track 4: are the least patriotic state in the country we hate america the most statistically hold accurately,
• 1:13:10
  Track 4: we hate america the most that makes us points for that so.
• 1:13:14
  Track 1: Are you saying you don't have much american pie in uh in uh in new jerseyville then.
• 1:13:19
  Track 4: No with cannoli oh.
• 1:13:21
  Track 2: God that's equally.
• 1:13:22
  Track 4: Phallic oh totally that's not true they use costco pies by.
• 1:13:26
  Track 1: The way i.
• 1:13:27
  Track 4: Mean you ever seen the end of a cannoli there's you know again the cream that's
• 1:13:32
  Track 4: it's also phallic it's both yeah shout out damn.
• 1:13:37
  Track 2: Right i I support it.
• 1:13:40
  Track 3: Wait, how many pies did they go through, Evan?
• 1:13:42
  Track 1: Oh, I couldn't find that. I just saw that they used pies from Costco.
• 1:13:46
  Track 4: Clavicular has labeled Gavin Newsom a Chad. I'm on his Wikipedia now.
• 1:13:52
  Track 2: And he labeled J.D. Vance.
• 1:13:54
  Track 3: I was wondering what you were searching over there, Bill. Once I saw you turn
• 1:13:57
  Track 3: and start typing, I was like, I wonder what he's searching.
• 1:14:04
  Track 2: No, clavicular is a concerning development in the American ethos.
• 1:14:09
  Track 2: Especially how popular he's becoming. He is cultural fascism incarnate.
• 1:14:12
  Track 4: I only learn, I learn about these young people from the A Bit Fruity pod.
• 1:14:17
  Track 4: That's where I learn about young people things.
• 1:14:20
  Track 2: I like the A Bit Fruity pod.
• 1:14:22
  Track 4: There are times when he talks about things and I'm like, he said something once
• 1:14:25
  Track 4: and I was just like, I forget what he, and I was like, he's so young.
• 1:14:31
  Track 4: He's so young. Yes, it is a very good podcast.
• 1:14:35
  Track 2: Yeah, all the podcasts I listen to are depressing. I listen to Behind the Bastards,
• 1:14:39
  Track 2: Which is a banger, but really depressing because it's about evil people.
• 1:14:42
  Track 2: I listen to, wait, cool people that do cool stuff. Also a banger.
• 1:14:47
  Track 2: But also We Have Little Guys by Molly Conger.
• 1:14:51
  Track 2: 10 out of 10. It's about neo-Nazis and the neo-Nazi movement.
• 1:14:55
  Track 2: Banger, but really depressing. So, yeah. I have uplifting things every day, as y'all can tell.
• 1:15:01
  Track 1: That's why you need to talk about American Pie. But then we devolve into a cult.
• 1:15:04
  Track 2: It's fully no it's fully like nascent american
• 1:15:08
  Track 2: cultural fascism absolutely like it is it
• 1:15:11
  Track 2: is the way like the whole entire story arc is the development from like teenagers
• 1:15:16
  Track 2: who are just like open cultural fascists into like like what would be perceived
• 1:15:20
  Track 2: as like normal men who just like own one woman you know and like how you go
• 1:15:25
  Track 2: about getting them is the storyline um and i was Oh, my goodness.
• 1:15:30
  Track 2: And by the way, cultural like American Pie woke 2.0 will be a polycule all trying
• 1:15:37
  Track 2: to like go into monogamous relationships. I'm calling it now.
• 1:15:40
  Track 2: And I would like to produce that movie.
• 1:15:42
  Track 2: I would like it to be a polycule of mixed genders, all NBs, and the question
• 1:15:49
  Track 2: is how they end up in monogamous relationships or how they bring someone new
• 1:15:53
  Track 2: into the polycule. I'd love to see it.
• 1:15:55
  Track 4: Calvicular lives not only in Florida, he lives in Miami.
• 1:15:57
  Track 3: Which is...
• 1:15:59
  Track 2: Notably worse.
• 1:16:00
  Track 4: The Florida of Florida.
• 1:16:02
  Track 3: It's like Florida City.
• 1:16:04
  Track 1: The Florida of Florida.
• 1:16:05
  Track 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:06
  Track 1: Any final thoughts on this? I feel like we might have covered most of your stuff
• 1:16:11
  Track 1: here, but I want to make sure you've got everything.
• 1:16:14
  Track 2: Do I have any other notes? Yeah.
• 1:16:18
  Track 2: No, I have too many maxings in my comments.
• 1:16:24
  Track 2: I think I said something pilled like 10 times and then fraud maxing like 10 times.
• 1:16:28
  Track 2: I watched this movie in the bath with like two glasses of wine.
• 1:16:34
  Track 2: Really the only way you could tolerate it.
• 1:16:36
  Track 3: Same.
• 1:16:38
  Track 2: At the end, I felt the same, just more metaphysically. I just wanted to note, yeah. What?
• 1:16:45
  Track 4: I did see this. I mean, the first time I did see this was like,
• 1:16:48
  Track 4: when it came out so i was stone cold sober because.
• 1:16:54
  Track 2: That's wild that's wild i watched girls
• 1:16:57
  Track 2: rules on an edible but um i want
• 1:17:00
  Track 2: to yeah on the eastern european girl like this the only note
• 1:17:03
  Track 2: i want to add there was this is like so classic like
• 1:17:05
  Track 2: introducing like capitalism to former communism and also the relationship
• 1:17:08
  Track 2: that like a very real sex trade that did happen
• 1:17:11
  Track 2: with like mail order wives from your eastern europe it
• 1:17:15
  Track 2: is that characterization just brought down um and like if that's not really
• 1:17:19
  Track 2: like it's a caricature but it's also a thing that actually happened which is
• 1:17:22
  Track 2: like eastern european women being brought over for like pure sex and that's
• 1:17:25
  Track 2: where that came from and a way that like the west dominated the east so that's
• 1:17:29
  Track 2: like the like major like nationalist thing which is more of just a character so.
• 1:17:34
  Track 1: After she gets like deported or sent home because of
• 1:17:37
  Track 1: like her sponsors seeing the video later you
• 1:17:40
  Track 1: see jim and her like
• 1:17:43
  Track 1: uh video know like scamping or whatever they you know and i find that extremely
• 1:17:49
  Track 1: weird because somehow this humiliation and disgusting thing that he did isn't
• 1:17:58
  Track 1: somehow viewed as a big deal.
• 1:18:00
  Track 2: Like they.
• 1:18:01
  Track 4: Kind of just wash.
• 1:18:02
  Track 1: Over this disgusting thing like oh yeah like we're still like pen pals or you know.
• 1:18:08
  Track 4: Dating or whatever it's it's like the claim that like you know when a woman
• 1:18:12
  Track 4: gets raped she actually wants it like that's she wants it.
• 1:18:16
  Track 3: It's that same vein.
• 1:18:18
  Track 2: Yeah i think it's the most quintessential like women
• 1:18:21
  Track 2: are scared of being murdered and raped and men are scared of being embarrassed
• 1:18:24
  Track 2: and like this movie plays them as equal because he gets embarrassed he came
• 1:18:29
  Track 2: early so actually it's the same as as being uh like like cyber raped in front
• 1:18:34
  Track 2: of the whole entire school and so actually like if anything he got embarrassed
• 1:18:38
  Track 2: twice because he came early twice so it's even so why should why would she care
• 1:18:41
  Track 2: like that's how i like yeah.
• 1:18:43
  Track 1: Yeah i mean geez wow.
• 1:18:46
  Track 2: What a beautiful movie around well.
• 1:18:48
  Track 1: Let me ask you this sometimes sometimes we ask sometimes we don't there's not
• 1:18:51
  Track 1: related to what you just said like would you tell someone would like would you
• 1:18:54
  Track 1: recommend someone who hasn't seen i mean probably if someone listened to this
• 1:18:57
  Track 1: they probably have seen it but if they hadn't would you tell them to go see this movie.
• 1:19:00
  Track 2: Yeah people should watch this movie it's like with a critical eye
• 1:19:03
  Track 2: like it'll make you cringe and cry but it's i think
• 1:19:06
  Track 2: like i don't know so okay what i'll say is like
• 1:19:09
  Track 2: i spend too much time online obviously and all of my time is spent being gaslit
• 1:19:15
  Track 2: by blue maga and fake wokers and like conservatives that are better at lying
• 1:19:21
  Track 2: like the kirk carlsonites and we're told that none of this is real and we're
• 1:19:25
  Track 2: told that all of this is nonsense but if you go back like 20 years then you can just be like.
• 1:19:30
  Track 2: There it is you know it's like they weren't lying about it
• 1:19:33
  Track 2: this is just what it is and like if you go back
• 1:19:35
  Track 2: with all of that and like you go if you think
• 1:19:38
  Track 2: about all the things you're told that aren't real like sexism misogyny etc
• 1:19:41
  Track 2: and you go and see them do it actively yeah it's fantastic like
• 1:19:45
  Track 2: it's it's really like very freeing to be like oh i like
• 1:19:48
  Track 2: i'm being gaslit actively by culture right now for like
• 1:19:51
  Track 2: a million dollar like billion dollar propaganda machines not to so
• 1:19:54
  Track 2: yeah i thought it was really like nice to see like just
• 1:19:57
  Track 2: well like like freeing from gaslighting obviously bigot
• 1:20:01
  Track 2: obviously bigotry isn't good but i would prefer the bigotry
• 1:20:03
  Track 2: be out in the open than like lied about you know
• 1:20:06
  Track 2: um to an extent like it's it's more comforting for me cognitively
• 1:20:09
  Track 2: to be like yeah this is evil and bad and then everyone could go and
• 1:20:12
  Track 2: go yeah this is evil and bad um and like then we're making like sequels and
• 1:20:16
  Track 2: prequels you know and also it's like i didn't find it like that funny but like
• 1:20:20
  Track 2: it was watchable like it was actually surprisingly digestible like i there was
• 1:20:24
  Track 2: no point where i was like i need to click off of this is like difficult to watch
• 1:20:27
  Track 2: like narratively it was fine it's a kind of classic like american film.
• 1:20:31
  Track 4: Says a lot about america.
• 1:20:32
  Track 1: Awesome well will thank you so much for suggesting this film and uh coming on
• 1:20:37
  Track 1: to discuss it it was great to have you.
• 1:20:39
  Track 2: Happily thank you all so much for having me on yeah thank.
• 1:20:42
  Track 4: You for joining us of.
• 1:20:43
  Track 2: Course and.
• 1:20:44
  Track 1: You'll be able to check out your channel for people who maybe don't follow you
• 1:20:47
  Track 1: in the show notes and you've been listening to left of the ejector and we'll catch you next time.