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Systemic Healing through Ecological, Nature and Art Therapy with Mor Keshet | The Holistic Pharmacy Podcast · Pharmacy Podcast Network

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the global network of podcasters dedicated
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession. Welcome to the Pharmacy podcast Network.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. I'm your host,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Marina books of and I'm a functional medicine pharmacist in
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: New York. I'm also a clinical herbalist and an integrative
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  Speaker 2: health coach specializing in mindfulness and empowerment. I'm on a
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  Speaker 2: mission to transform the way we approach healthcare by bridging
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  Speaker 2: the wisdom of traditional medicine with modern practice, and in
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: this podcast, I will be highlighting guests who do just that.
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  Speaker 2: I'm constantly inspired by them and I know you will
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  Speaker 2: be as well.
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  Speaker 3: Hello and welcome back to the Holistic Pharmacy Podcast. I
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: have an amazing guest today that I met recently in
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  Speaker 3: real life in person in New York City, and I
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  Speaker 3: can't wait to share her work with you all.
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  Speaker 4: Her name is more Cachette.
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  Speaker 3: She's an integrative eco art therapist, systems thinker, and founder
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  Speaker 3: of tevel and nature based healing platform advancing collective resilience
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  Speaker 3: in the face of ecological and societal disruption. Her work
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  Speaker 3: lives in the intersection of eco and trauma informed psychology,
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  Speaker 3: the science of awe imagination, and living systems. Moore's framework
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  Speaker 3: origination has appeared in the Journal of Ecopsychology, Psychology Today,
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  Speaker 3: and Biomimicry Institute. Her work contributes to emerging frameworks that
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  Speaker 3: integrate emotional literacy, ecological attainment, and systems level trans information
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  Speaker 3: and really more. Is just such a wonderful, amazing person
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  Speaker 3: to speak to. And we did a little art class
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  Speaker 3: in the beginning of a workshop that I attended, and
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  Speaker 3: you could see some of the art behind her on
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  Speaker 3: the wall, and so I can't wait to get into
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  Speaker 3: everything that she.
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  Speaker 4: Does with you all so more. Welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you so much. It's great to be here with you.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. Yes, really appreciate you coming on.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: And let's dive in with maybe your background, how you
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: grew up, maybe a little bit about your childhood if
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  Speaker 3: you don't mind sharing, and then what you're currently doing.
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  Speaker 5: Sure, So, I was actually born in Israel, kind of
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  Speaker 5: an incredible hot spot in more ways than one right
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  Speaker 5: now in the world. I was born on a farm,
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  Speaker 5: on a small collective farm where my parents and grew
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  Speaker 5: flowers and onions and cabbage, and all sorts of things.
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  Speaker 5: And I have very little memory of that.
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  Speaker 4: Period. I was very young.
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  Speaker 5: We left Israel when I was three, and we actually
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  Speaker 5: moved to the Philippines for two years and where my
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  Speaker 5: father had this contract to bring some of the Israeli
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  Speaker 5: agricultural innovation to the Philippines to teach farmers about irrigation
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  Speaker 5: and how to channel all of that rain water that
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  Speaker 5: they receive. And we lived in the jungle for two years,
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  Speaker 5: and I remember feeling very much aligned with the character
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  Speaker 5: Mogli from the Jungle Book.
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  Speaker 4: I really really resonated with Mogli.
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  Speaker 5: In fact, my imaginary friend looked just like Mowgli and
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  Speaker 5: we went through everything together. And then we came to
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  Speaker 5: New York on what was supposed to be a visit
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  Speaker 5: and we swapped one jungle for another. And yeah, so
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  Speaker 5: I really a few months ago, maybe six nine months ago,
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  Speaker 5: I learned.
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  Speaker 4: This term third culture.
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  Speaker 3: Kid.
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  Speaker 5: You know, someone who is born in one culture is
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  Speaker 5: raised in a different culture and they don't exactly identify
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  Speaker 5: with either. And I really it really resonates with me
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  Speaker 5: because when I moved back to Israel as an adult,
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  Speaker 5: I saw.
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  Speaker 4: Like, wow, I am really different.
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  Speaker 5: But I've also really felt that sense of difference living
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  Speaker 5: in the States. So yeah, that's a bit about my childhood.
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  Speaker 5: And I always had this like my own personal resonance
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  Speaker 5: and my own personal relationship with natural world, But it
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  Speaker 5: wasn't until COVID.
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  Speaker 4: It wasn't until.
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  Speaker 5: Twenty twenty, when we were all put into this space
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  Speaker 5: that I really started to think about the convergence of
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  Speaker 5: the natural world and healing and a psychotherapeutic process, both
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  Speaker 5: for individuals and for the collective. And I'm happy to
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  Speaker 5: say more about that too, Yes, for sure.
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  Speaker 3: One of my friends and colleagues, Nora Alba, has coined
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  Speaker 3: the term in betweeners, And what you're speaking to is
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  Speaker 3: exactly like that, where you don't feel like you fit
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  Speaker 3: into anyone or a worldview or culture per se, and
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  Speaker 3: it's kind of like drawing from a little bit of
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  Speaker 3: everything that you're exposed to. And I think that's how
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  Speaker 3: the world is coming to be now because we're in
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  Speaker 3: such a global world at this point. We know that,
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  Speaker 3: you know, we're not isolated and these like mono cultures
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  Speaker 3: and even the way that we're growing food, right, it's
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  Speaker 3: not supposed to be isolated that way, and it's supposed
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  Speaker 3: to be more diverse, and it's healthier when it's more diverse.
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  Speaker 3: And that's one of the things that I have come
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  Speaker 3: to realize as well in my journey and learning about
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  Speaker 3: herbalism has really been that key for me about understanding
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  Speaker 3: where nature is and where we are in the ecosystem
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  Speaker 3: and how to be like concentric, you know, not just
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  Speaker 3: centric where the ego or the person is there in
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  Speaker 3: the middle and everything around us exists for us. It's
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  Speaker 3: really like we're part of that everything. So yeah, I'm
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  Speaker 3: glad that we're speaking to us right off the bat
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  Speaker 3: here for sure.
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  Speaker 5: And I really love that term in between ers that
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  Speaker 5: that also really resonates. And I think that having this
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  Speaker 5: diverse cultural upbringing and needing from a very young age,
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  Speaker 5: you know, needing to learn how to connect with people
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  Speaker 5: from all different backgrounds really informed my.
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  Speaker 4: I think my very real ability to be able.
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  Speaker 5: To have and create and curate a sense of you know,
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  Speaker 5: contained and mutual safety with people. Again, I mean just
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  Speaker 5: from all sorts of backgrounds. There's always a sense of resonance,
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  Speaker 5: and it's something that I'm really grateful for.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that with us.
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  Speaker 3: And I have come from a different country too. I
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  Speaker 3: was brought up in Ukraine and my family is actually Belarussian,
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  Speaker 3: and then I moved here to the United States, and
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  Speaker 3: you know, I completely resonate with the cross cultural intersections
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  Speaker 3: and how that can add complexity and understanding where you
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  Speaker 3: fit in the same time, being in New York City
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: for most of my life. At this point, I feel
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  Speaker 3: so lucky and blessed that, like this is.
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  Speaker 4: A place where all that.
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  Speaker 3: Sort of clashes and it's just a multicultural pod and
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  Speaker 3: everybody's very i think, you know, understanding, and we're all
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  Speaker 3: kind of in the same boat where everybody's different and
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  Speaker 3: we're more exposed to different cultures than I think probably
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  Speaker 3: any other city, at least in the US. So yeah,
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  Speaker 3: it's definitely a different experience to be here compared to
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  Speaker 3: anywhere else that you may feel like an in between
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  Speaker 3: our of sorts.
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  Speaker 4: So More, when.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: We met, you explained what your name meant, and that
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  Speaker 3: was such a beautiful story.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm wondering if you could share that with us
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  Speaker 4: as well. Sure.
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  Speaker 5: So More In Hebrew, it's pronounced more and so more
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: or more is the Hebrew for mer, you know, which
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: is usually kind of like brought together with frankinsense and murr.
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  Speaker 5: But murr is an incense that you know, in ancient
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  Speaker 5: Biblical times and since has been used as a purifier
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  Speaker 5: to purify spaces and keshe means rainbow, So I guess,
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: I guess my name means like a purifying rainbow. And
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  Speaker 5: I don't know if I shared this with you when
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  Speaker 5: I met you. An amazing, amazing teenage client that I
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: work with that is soon leaving for college. When we
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: first started working together, she was writing me a text
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  Speaker 5: and I happened to see.
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  Speaker 4: My contact card.
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  Speaker 5: I never told her the meaning of my name, but
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  Speaker 5: I saw that she had more and then she had the.
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  Speaker 4: Rainbow emoji, and I was like, where how did that?
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  Speaker 4: She's like, I don't know, you just give rainbow.
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  Speaker 5: So it was just such a darling way, you know,
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  Speaker 5: for me to see that.
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  Speaker 4: You know, I really do believe that every.
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  Speaker 5: Name has a story and an essence, and that was
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  Speaker 5: really affirming that, you know, that.
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  Speaker 4: Essence had come through to her. Yeah, that is unbelievable.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm looking at you now and you're wearing these
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  Speaker 3: multi colored stripes on your shirt or and then you
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  Speaker 3: have all these colors around you, so I can totally
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  Speaker 3: get the rainbow vibes as well and just comes through.
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  Speaker 3: But I'm wondering whether it was the name or the
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  Speaker 3: energy behind a name, or what the story is behind
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: you finding healing work.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: So my grandfather, my mother's father, was an Alschwitz survivor.
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  Speaker 5: He was the only survivor from his family. He was
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  Speaker 5: sent to Alschwitz when he was twelve, and he came
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: out when he was almost seventeen, and he was incredible,
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  Speaker 5: and yet he was incredibly pained, I mean really truly
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  Speaker 5: traumatized in ways that you know are difficult for us
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  Speaker 5: to even begin to imagine.
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  Speaker 4: And for as long as I.
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  Speaker 5: Could remember, there were two things that I really really
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  Speaker 5: wanted to understand. I really wanted to understand what one
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  Speaker 5: day was like for him, just one day, because he
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  Speaker 5: couldn't He couldn't really emote about it, he couldn't really
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  Speaker 5: talk about it. He would have horrible night terrors, but
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  Speaker 5: he couldn't really talk about it.
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  Speaker 4: It was a parent.
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  Speaker 5: It was a parent in the way he would shovel food,
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  Speaker 5: and it was just it was so pained. So I
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  Speaker 5: always really wanted to know what one day was like
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  Speaker 5: for him. And then I also really wanted to know
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  Speaker 5: kind of what separates people and communities from just surviving
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  Speaker 5: to really thriving.
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  Speaker 4: There was something that just really fascinated me.
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  Speaker 5: And you know, in Judaism, there's this premise of tikun
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  Speaker 5: dam to repair the world right, and and I've I've
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  Speaker 5: just always had this very innate desire to reinstate some
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  Speaker 5: sense of of healing of repair, you know, I think
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  Speaker 5: that coming epigenetically and intergenerationally from just such profound trauma,
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  Speaker 5: which has absolutely shown up in my life in more
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  Speaker 5: ways than one, you know, both directly, both genetically, both,
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  Speaker 5: I mean, just so many different kinds of expressions of
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  Speaker 5: that trauma. You know, just this really innate desire to
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  Speaker 5: tip the scales, you know, and into a place of healing,
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: of some restored sense of justice and repair.
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  Speaker 4: And it's something that.
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  Speaker 5: I started engaging with, I mean since I was like twelve,
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  Speaker 5: you know, very early on. I was growing up in
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: the late eighties and early nineties when the AIDS epidemic
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  Speaker 5: was ravaging so many different communities and communities.
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  Speaker 4: That were different from my own, you know, largely the.
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: At the time it was called the gay community, you know,
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  Speaker 5: underprivileged communities, you know, disproportionately to to black and brown people.
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  Speaker 5: And I started volunteering and learning about you know, becoming
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: a periods educator and became very very involved in that space.
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  Speaker 5: So it's just kind of been this innate thing since
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  Speaker 5: I was very young. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Wow, that was a lot to unpack.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm glad that you mentioned the epigenetic and across
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: generational and the lineage and the imprint that the trauma
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  Speaker 3: one generation has to deal with then passes down. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and it does definitely carry on until we decide to
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: dismantle it. And one of the ways, as you mentioned,
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  Speaker 3: could be to actually talk about it and share the
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  Speaker 3: burden and allow it to be seen, that pain to
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: be seen, really, because when we keep it, you know, hidden,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: and create more shame around it of some sort or
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: any other negativity than that could really constrain us. So
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  Speaker 3: thank you so much for sharing that, and I think
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: it's applicable in one way or another across generations and
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: across anybody listening to this podcast. You know, whether or
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: not you know your family history, well, it seems like
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: every generation had more trauma than the one after it.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: And if you believe it or not, I think like
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  Speaker 3: we've been born into maybe a better world than other
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: generations before us. Now, of course, we have a lot
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: that we see and are exposed to, and you know,
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: violence and wars going on right now as we speak
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: that are continued from ancient times some of them, but
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: in general, we don't have to fight for our survival
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: as much, I feel like as some of our previous
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: generations and our ancestors. So it just always reminds me
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: to be grateful and thankful to be here now.
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  Speaker 4: In this time and have a lot.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: More privileged than people before us, generations before us, a
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: lot more access to information and education around these things,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: and healers like yourself who are doing the work to
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: fund mental and dismantle some of these burdens.
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: Absolutely, and with that privilege, I happen to believe comes responsibility.
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  Speaker 5: I am really privileged in many ways. You know, I'm
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: in this safe place. I don't have to worry about
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: clean water. I don't have to worry about, you know, sewage,
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: I don't have to I don't have to worry about
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  Speaker 5: so many things.
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  Speaker 4: I have whole foods that I.
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  Speaker 5: Can eat, you know, I all of more than my
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: basic needs are met, and we're also we're coming up,
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: you know, in this generation.
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  Speaker 4: I agree with you that in many many ways this
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: you know.
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  Speaker 5: Are as with all the hardship, the world has absolutely
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: grown and developed, and you know, it's so much yes,
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: and because there are systems that are really broken and
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: irrosive and damaging in so many different ways. And it's
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: kind of amazing working with young people who have such
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: nuanced understanding of family dynamics and in your generational dynamics and.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Coping skills and you know, just all of these things.
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  Speaker 5: So I happen to believe that with all of that
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: privilege does come great responsibility.
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  Speaker 4: What are you going to do with that?
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  Speaker 5: You know?
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  Speaker 4: Like, how how are you going to use that?
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  Speaker 5: Not only to benefit your own self care, your own healing,
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: but we are so intricately connected, you know, into this
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  Speaker 5: cosmic matrix of life.
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  Speaker 4: What are you going to do with that?
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: You know, because what happens to you affects me and
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: vice versa, all of us.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: More so I'm curious how do you approach this in
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: your work and your healing work and your therapy. What
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: you mentioned about nature and what you do with art,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: how do you connect all of these worlds together.
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  Speaker 4: Sure.
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  Speaker 5: So I've been an art therapist since two thousand and five,
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: and ever since I became an art therapist, I've worked
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: with people who've had really overwhelming experiences. So in New
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: York City with homeless, mentally ill, chemically addicted adults, you know,
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: the folks on the street that for many people are
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: quite invisible, right.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I worked with women who survived sex.
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: Trafficking, and families who were in severe crisis, and refugee children.
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  Speaker 5: So it was always really clear to me these were
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: complex problems. These were really complex systems and situations from
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: which these human beings emerged.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: And what I was seeing in the.
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: Present moment was the outcome of a really complex experience.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: So it was clear to me that there was.
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: No one size fits all and that this really acquired
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: and integrative process. So pretty early on the way that
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: I would approach clinical work was integrative.
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  Speaker 4: You know, art therapy always the nucleus.
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  Speaker 5: It is the nucleus because I believe wholeheartedly that the
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: creative process and our species singular way of expressing our experience,
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: expressing and sublimating what it is that we have experienced,
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: can actually heal the greatest ills of our time, so
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: art therapy was always the nucleus, and then you know,
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: these other kind of fields started to converge of trauma
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: informed psychology and somatics and mindfulness. Right. And then when
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: COVID came along and we were all here, I saw
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: with folks, because I was continuing to work with people
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: who had experienced what is known as complex trauma or
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: acute trauma, right, just overwhelming experiences, that they were even
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: more dissociated. And you know, because all of those identity feeding,
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: you know, work, school, just moving about the world, they
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: were gone. So I just kind of on a whim,
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: I suggested that we should meet in the park, and
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: I didn't change anything. I brought supplies with me, and
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: I brought beach chairs and we just sat under trees
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  Speaker 5: instead of a ceiling, and everything changed, Marina. You know,
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  Speaker 5: I saw people's narratives, right. Trauma can kind of close
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: up the perception and the lens, and we can get
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: very binaried, very black and white in how we see
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: things in our worldview. I saw that start to open up,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: and I saw people's sense of self start to open up.
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: I basically started to see consciousness expansion and resourcing and
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: I was like, this isn't this is this is I'm
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: not changing anything.
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  Speaker 4: This is incredible what is happening?
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  Speaker 5: And I started doing research and learning about ecopsychology and
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: ecotherapy and more specifically eco art therapy and became more
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: intentional about it. So the primary way, really, there's three
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: primary ways to bring all of this together, right, like
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: in thinking about nature as a co creator or a
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: co therapist, which is an absurd thing to say, because
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: we in no way compare, right I say that with
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: great humility and awareness of my modesty before the natural world,
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: but that we create either in the natural world as
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: inspired by the natural world, or borrowing from the natural world,
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: you know, with materials, and or through metaphor ideally all three.
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: And it's kind of just this really organic process, right
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: that over the last six years of just developing all
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: different kinds of directives that are nature based, you know,
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: like really focusing on your nature ally, all different kinds
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: of meditations that are about the natural world, you know,
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: just different things that we make with natural materials. Just
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: I mean so many different ways that I'm happy to
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: talk about more.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, I would love to dive a little bit deeper.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: I'm always like a big picture thinker, and when I
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: see the state of the world, and obviously a lot
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: of us can probably pinpoint some of the problems.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: And then there's the question of, well, what is the solution?
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: Right, And we can talk all day, we can talk
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: for decades, we can talk for centuries about the problems,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: but what's actually going to.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: Help us move forward?
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: And so in your work, I'm wondering if there are
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: anything that you can share with us on an individual
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: level that we can be doing to help our own
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: expansion of consciousness and to be in service to the world.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: And then also is there anything collectively that you would
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: wish for the world to be doing.
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's almost one and the same for both.
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: I really tend to view things on a relational field,
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: and this whole framework that I've been developing is all
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: about human's broken attachment to the natural world and thereby
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: ourselves right through this onset of capitalism, and you know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: just the anthropoisy human human acute and systemic impact on
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: the planet where we have reversed our connection with the
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: natural world and we have ottered it so intensely, so
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: pathologically that it's just objectified.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: The tree is no longer a tree, it's lumber.
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: The cow is no longer a cow, it's a beef steak.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: The mountain is no longer a mountain, it's copper like
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: it's it's just all resources for extraction. That through that
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: systemic severing of our attachment to the natural world, we
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: have and destabilizing of gaya of the planet, right, disregulating
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: the planet, we have so disregulated ourselves, right, and we
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: see this by an epidemic of despair, of loneliness, of addiction,
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: of numbness, of nihilism, you know, just all of the woes,
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: all of the problems, in my view, really come from
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: this just like pervasive detaching from the natural.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: World and really ourselves and each other.
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: Right, So, in my view, any opportunity this is not
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: just like about taking a walk.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: That's great, is that's wonderful to take a walk. It's
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: really to shift your orientation, like.
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: To really, I really believe that if individuals and families
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: and communities and regions and culture, this is cultural repair
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: starting with one person and moving from the diad to
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: the group, that if we begin to really shift our
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: orientation to step outside and see that we are surrounded
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: by kin rather than resource like truly kin from the
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: teeny tiny that is under our feet, the subterranean, to
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: these giants that stand above us.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: And if we are able to do that, and then if.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: We're able to transmit and make art about it, which
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: we then internalize and integrate and expand our own sense
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: of self, as you know, becoming an ecological self rather
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: than just more keshet walking about right that, Wow, oh
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: my god, I'm part of something so.
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: Much faster, so much more powerful than just one human being.
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: We will become incredibly resourced and we can really heal.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: I hope that makes sense in terms of.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know it's a complex question, and I love
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: what you said about the art piece of it. And
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: I've always thought that artists were the original social commentators
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: and visionaries and really sharing maybe what an ideal world is,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: or maybe what a different perspective is on something or
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: pointing something out in a new way that people can
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: resonate with. And I totally agree with you about everything
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: that we're seeing with the ecology and the environment and
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: what we've done by an extractive system and capitalistic system,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: and then now that being mirrored back to us by
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: our bodies and by our psyches and our mental health
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: and our social health and our physical health with all
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: the chronic illnesses that I see, and all the innovation
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: in the world, all the herbs and supplements and technologies
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and gene editing, is not going to help us.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: That's truly what I believe. It's really what you're talking
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: about and.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: Reimagining what a more symbiotic relationship would look like. I
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: think that's the answer, and that's where I personally believe
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: we should all be focusing our time and attention and
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: resources into. And so my next question to you is
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: how do we invite people into this work gently rather
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: than maybe like making them feel guilty or shame them
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: for the old ways?
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: Totally, I think that is such an important, important question,
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: and it's something that I've discussed with other folks in
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: the climate community, you know, like the environmental activist community.
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: There has been way too much emphasis on shame, and
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: especially when we are not responsible for this crisis or
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: this poly crisis. You know, it doesn't matter how much
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: I recycle that that's not right, Like, it's not about that.
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: So it's not about like you shouldn't or maybe you
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: know you should do this differently.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: It's really about.
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: What you have to gain, what you have to gain
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: from shifting your orientation to living. This is I mean,
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: this is like an orientation shift. What what do you
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: have to gain? You know, if you are really struggling
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: with anxiety, if you are really struggling with depression, if
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: you are really struggling with intergenerational trauma, what can this
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: relational shift do for that? You know, how can that
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: help you?
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: In the language of you know, the.
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: Hubreman manosphere, how can you optimize your life?
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: This can really help optimize your life.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: This can really help empower you to become like to
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: shift your inner architecture. I think that there if we
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: lean on that, on what people have to gain from
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: this orientation shift, and you know, and even leaning on
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: science and learning about what the experience of AWE actually
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: does to the mind, what that does to the default
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: mode network, what that does for our executive functioning, for
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: our sense of focus and.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: Clarity and well being.
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: Right, So, there's just so much to gain that has
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: nothing to do with guilt and shame. And then so
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: you show up, you show up at the grocery counter,
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: more resource to more kind, more regulated and so you
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: help those in your immediate surroundings inherently become more regulated,
• 30:50
  Speaker 5: and it just has this ripple effect of inadvertently spreading goodness. Right, yeah,
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: I love that. Thank you for those examples. I think
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: that's important to name.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: And another question came to mind as you were speaking.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: We met at a psychedelic book signing and journalism mini event.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: So I'm curious what your perspective is on the role
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: of psychedelics or other substances that change perhaps our consciousness.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Does that have a role in your work or do
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: you see it having a role in this type of work.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: So it's interesting that you ask.
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: I remember having a conversation with Marissa Feinberg, the founder
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: of Psychedelics for Climate Action, about how I was a
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: psychedelic person before I ever tried any kind of psychedelic
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: and I really view this work as being incredibly psychedelic.
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: This is really consciousness shifting and consciousness expanding. I think
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: it's a really nuanced conversation, and it all comes down
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: to intention, right, It all comes down to intention. What
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: am I wanting to embody here? And there's a really
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: big difference. And you know, people are adults and they
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: do things responsibly and hopefully safely. If if you know,
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: if it's to get it's.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: To have a really great time. Listen, everybody needs to feel.
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: Good, I suppose, But I do think that, you know,
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: there are absolutely plant medicines that can help people in
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: a really accelerated way if they don't have access to working.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: With someone like you or someone like me.
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: You know, if they're able to access an opportunity to
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: engage in a consciousness expanding experience and there is an
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: intention to connect with transcendence, with the cosmic matrix of life,
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: and they are then able to, you know, post experience,
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: set an intention to integrate that into the culture of
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: their life, then I think it can really accelerate that.
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: I do. I just my my biggest.
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: Concern with psychedelics is that they're not done with reverence,
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: and you know, they're they're kind of becoming you know,
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: people are live streaming themselves and live streaming they're like bots.
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: It's very bizarre what's happening. So, as you know, these
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: are plant medicines, these are sacred experiences. You're wanting to
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: connect with a sacred state. There needs to be a
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: foundational reverence for that experience for to have integrity.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: That's my view. Yeah.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as an herbalist, I completely agree on One of
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: my teachers, Sam Perry, says that we take the soil
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: out of the experience in like the current modern way
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: that a lot of people engage with psychedelics. It's like
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: you're taking the context out. You're taking that ceremony and
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: the tradition and the reverence as you stated out, and
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: then you're just trying to engage with it in like
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: a clinical you know, chemical based model. Whether you're doing
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: it in a clinical setting or not, that's how most
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: of us, I think, tend to think about it, or
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: are taught to think about it, and so that definitely
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: changes the perspective and experience, you know, or it may
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: affect it in some way.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: We can't say for sure.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: Of course, many people probably have profound experiences either way.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: And like you said, you don't even need to take
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: any physical mind alternating altering substances to get a shift
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: in consciousness. You can totally tap into it in other ways.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: So my final sort of complex question for you is
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: how do we make sure we're not following the same
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: exact extractive model when we are doing things in a
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: more intentional, holistic, integrative way going forward. You know, how
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: do we make sure we build better structures, how do.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: We opt out of like the same models of.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: You know, ordering from Amazon the company and not saving
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Amazon the amazing birthplace so many plants and medicines.
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: What an important question, What a big question.
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: I think that there are two primary.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: Ingredients for that to happen.
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: And I think that they are humility and respect and
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: oh and pause. You know, in this click and consume
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: culture where everything is so easy and so accessible and
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: that has that has a timeline that that that is
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: not going It's this comfort convenience culture is not going
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: to last forever. And that's something that people need to
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: start to reconcile there. This is a finite place, There
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: are finite limits to the biophysical.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: It's to pause.
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: And with humility and respect and reverence to ask yourself
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: is this essential? Is this truly essential? And who does
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: it benefit? And for how long?
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: I mean, there's the seven generations rule we which we've
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: we've gained from the indigenous cultures of.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: This world and in all many cultures, right.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: I Mean, there's stories in the Torah of planting a
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: tree that you and your life are not going to
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: see the fruit, but your descendants will. So I think
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: that stopping and pausing as much as possible and asking
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: yourself with humility and reverence and respect, whom does this
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: benefit and for how long?
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: And is it essential? If it's not essential, what am
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: I hoping to gain from this? Am I?
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: Am I looking to soothe some kind of discomfort? Am
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: I looking to fill some vacancy? Has that even worked
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: for me in the past? Does it actually sustain that vacancy?
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: If not, then hmm, maybe I actually need to start
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: to engage in some meaning formation in my life, something
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: something far deeper and more expansive. And with that, you know,
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: going back to your earlier question about the guilt and
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: the shame, it's very very hard to exist in twenty
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: twenty six, in this time and place and not participate
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: in harmful systems.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: It's really challenging.
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: We can mitigate the harm I think by a lot
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: in asking ourselves just those few questions and shifting the
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: stance to that place of humility and foresight. You know,
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: like what I do now is going to impact for
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: a long time. So let me pause and think about that.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Wow, Thank you so much. This was such an insightful conversation.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it, and I have recently written about
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: the seven generation principle. If any listening wants to go
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: check out my blog Marina books off dot com and more.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: If you just have two more minutes, I'd love to
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: do a rapid fire round with you.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, sure that sounds fun.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: The first question I ask everybody is what would you
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: say to somebody looking to improve their quality of life?
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: Right now? Go outside and commune with the tree.
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: Ask it for advice if there is a question that
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: you are really pondering.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: I know this sounds woo woo, but it's not.
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: Go outside and ask the tree your question. I am
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: telling you you will get a response.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: Love that.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, everybody, you can try this at home. It's safe
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: to do that, doctor approved.
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Question two, what is your favorite meal to either cook
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: or to eat?
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, this is the supposed
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: to be rapid fire.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: I really love to make chuk shuka and I loved Yeah,
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: I love to make chuk chuka.
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: It's basically, you know, you roast peppers and onions and
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: tomato sauce, and you know.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Lots of really savory spices.
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: You know, you have cuman and paprika and and hot
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: pepper and jilapeno, and then you put and that that
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: simmers for a long time, and then.
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: You poach eggs on top.
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: It's just delicious and comforting and multi seasonal.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: Greats. Love it, love it.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: And then last question, what's your favorite hobby or maybe
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: a fun fact about yourself that many people may not
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: know about.
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: I love to dance so much. I love, love, love
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: to dance. I'm not I don't think I'm a great dancer.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: I don't.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: I don't think I'm particularly graceful.
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: But I love to dance, both by myself, with my kids,
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: in a club, in any kind of on the beach,
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: in the grocery aisle.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: I love to dance.
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: I think it is just such a great way to
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: move energy through our body.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: It just feels so good.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, well, dancer over here and anybody can be
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: a great dancer. Ecstatic slash interpretive, that's what we'll call it.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: So I love that totally, all right.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: More so, please share with our listeners how they can
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: get in touch, learn more and support your work amazing.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: So my website is my name, so.
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: It's ww dot Moore Kesha dot com, m O r
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: K E s h e t dot com. You can
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: find my links for my Instagram there. It's more cashet
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: Art Therapist on my website. There are so many free
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: resources for you to engage with rituals, devotional love ritual,
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: a deep earth centered gratitude ritual, all of these opportunities
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: for you to experience this work of bringing together connection
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: with the natural world.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: You know, your inner.
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: Psyche, with your creativity, and it's just like abundant, profound
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: sense of interconnection.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'll have all of that in the show
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: notes and I downloaded a few of those myself and
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: highly recommend everybody go and check it out and more.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Thank you again so much for your time, and I
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: hope to speak again soon.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: Bye, Thank you, Thank you.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Holistic Pharmacy Podcast, and I truly hope you enjoyed the show.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: If you learn something useful in this episode, please consider
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: giving the show a five star rating and a sincere
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: review so that more people can find it or share
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: it with a friend directly to get in touch with me.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: You can find me on social media by looking up
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: my name Marina books Of, or email me at Marina
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: at rawfork dot com. Take good care and see you soon.