Latest / Thick No More / Autistic and Thriving in Tech | Shea Belsky on Leadership, Inclusion & Being Yourself

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Autistic and Thriving in Tech | Shea Belsky on Leadership, Inclusion & Being Yourself · Thick No More

• 0:02
  They said we were thin. They said we couldn't learn,
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  couldn't thrive, couldn't shine. But here we are, living proof.
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  The resilience rewrites the story.
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  There are no labels. There are no limits.
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  This is the clamor where voices rise, stories connect.
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  Hey everybody, welcome back to Thick No More.
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  This is the show that turns old labels into new strengths.
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  I'm Jay and I am absolutely delighted today to be joined by
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  Shay Belsky, an autistic self advocate, a tech lead to
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  Hubstop, formerly CTO and technical Co founder of Myntra
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  and the host of Autistic Techie podcast.
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  We're going to talk about historian to leadership for
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  neuro diversity. I'm going to hopefully touch on
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  some practical advices about what companies miss out on and
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  where they're going wrong and talk about his early years.
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  But shade, I always start with the same question to everybody.
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  I know you've listened to a little bit of my podcast.
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  You flingered. All right, my friend, welcome.
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  You walk into the room and the same theme tune plays every
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  time. What is your song or why my
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  friend? My, I had a very interesting
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  question. First off, Jay Shay, love the
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  rhyming. Thank you for having me on your
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  show. If I was going to, if I was
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  going to have a theme song that played when I came out into a
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  room, I kind of like Born This Way by Lady Gaga, to be honest.
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  I think it kind of fits the theme of this topic where I was
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  born autistic. I really don't to see a world
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  where I would not be autistic, Like this week especially, I was
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  reminded of that in a good way and in a not good way.
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  But I really think that it's a part of my identity and I'm very
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  fortunate and lucky to be able to talk about it in forums like
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  this, and I'm super psyched to be on your show today.
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  Thanks my friend. Great cheer as well.
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  Love that song. So you've kindly told us about
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  autism. So what I like to do with this
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  is paint a picture. We have a lot of parents listen.
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  We have a lot of leaders, business leaders that listen.
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  And we also have a lot of tech people like you and I that
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  listen to. But I think the majority of
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  people that reach out to me are concerned parents.
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  They're a little bit lost. Their child has been given a
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  label. They don't really understand it.
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  So what I like to do in this podcast, some show you where is
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  this? We go back to the beginning and
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  we talk about you, your early years.
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  So you're autistic and really a self advocate from a young age.
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  What do you kind of remember about those those early years of
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  diagnosis and self discovery? From a pretty early point, I
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  think the conversation around neurodiversity was pretty
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  different than how it used to be in today's world.
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  When I was diagnosed when I was 2 years old, it was much more of
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  a challenging conversation between my parents and the
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  doctor. I, I don't remember that I was 2
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  years old, but they, they recall to me that when I was diagnosed,
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  it was like, oh, Shay will never go on to have a job.
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  He'll be with you forever. He won't have a partner or own a
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  home. And fortunately for me, I've
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  done all those things in the last five or so years.
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  So I'm very excited. And I'm sure the doctors would
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  be happy at this point to know that they were wrong.
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  One of those good things where they're they're happy to be
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  wrong in this case. And what I remember growing up
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  and really discovering myself was about learning to me, what
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  does my autism mean to me? So I think everybody has a
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  different relationship with autism, whether they are
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  autistic or not. And what I really sought out to
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  understand was what does it mean to me?
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  What do I need to ask for in my environment, at school, at work,
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  in my life? And how decisive, how stubborn
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  lack of a better word can I be when asking for these things?
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  Because I think it's very easy to fall into the trap of asking
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  for something, not getting and walking away.
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  But if I actually need something, then I need to be
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  confident enough in myself to stand up for myself and get it
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  done. Otherwise I will be a
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  compromised version of myself. Yeah, You know, the amount of
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  people that come on, we had a lady, a young lady come on a few
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  weeks ago now also from America. Also, given that absolute brutal
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  line, not to her, but to her parents, he's probably not going
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  to get a job. In her case, if she's not going
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  to get a job, she's probably going to get in trouble.
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  She's probably not going to get married.
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  You know, you can't imagine. I mean, I didn't, I didn't find
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  that I was dyslexic until I was way, way, way down a line.
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  I mean, way in my 20s. But it must be, it must be
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  really difficult for parents to hear those lines and think, my
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  God, you know, such at the start we get parents listen.
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  And Matt, you are definitely going to get people reaching out
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  to you, my friend, by the way, if that's OK, because they are
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  they're lost, you know, and given, I mean, thank God, praise
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  the Lord that we don't get those kind of statements anymore from
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  from doctors and neurologists and and and hospitals.
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  But what a brutal line to give to a parent.
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  Probably never going to work. And Can you imagine?
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  It's challenging and something that I've think has been coming
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  up more often now than when I was growing up was Hollywood,
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  pop, pop culture, movies, television, etcetera.
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  In when I was growing up, the image of an autistic individual
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  was Kiki, antisocial white American brunette.
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  I I joke about that, but it's also a very serious conversation
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  because most people who think of autistic individuals think of
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  white American men. But by and large, autism is
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  something that anybody can have, whether you are a woman, a
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  person of color, someone from a different race, a different
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  country. And I think the doctors, and not
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  only doctors, but also society in the world as we know what,
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  are also starting to recognize what autism looks like in other
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  people. And I think the pop culture is
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  starting to slowly and slowly reflect this.
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  My big shtick, my big bone that I pick is with like Sheldon from
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  Big Bang Theory. He is a stereotype of like what
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  an Asperger's autistic individual like myself kind of
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  looks like. But by and large, we've seen a
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  much more healthier spread and breadth of diversity from newer
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  portrayals of autism. For instance, Sesame Street has
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  a great portrayal. There was a Broadway musical
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  about autistic people a couple years ago featuring men and
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  women of all different backgrounds and upbringings.
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  And I think we're starting to see a trend where autistic
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  people are not mischaracterized. It's only fitting one sort of
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  look or feel. It's, it's the conversation.
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  Well, I guess I mean, it's it you've got to start somewhere
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  and talking about it is one thing.
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  I'd really my my son, I've got a 14 year old son and he flat
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  refuses to listen to my podcasts.
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  Right. I don't know why he just does.
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  However, I have a selling point to him now.
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  He loves young Sheldon. I have facts.
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  The fact that you've mentioned that they're like, I've got to
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  say to him, you need to listen to this podcast.
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  Perhaps, perhaps I can persuade him to listen now from that.
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  What was what was what was school like for you?
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  I mean, I know what it was like for me, but what was it like for
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  you, my friend? Can you can you elaborate a bit
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  about it? School was interesting for me
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  because I was really trying to figure out my sense of like self
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  regulation dysregulation. I had environmental and sensory
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  triggers that I didn't even know about, largely because I was
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  just so afraid. But it wasn't until I matured
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  for like a middle school and high school or was able to
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  really take a step back and ask myself, what are these triggers
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  that are bothering me? Is it light?
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  Is it sound? Does it touch?
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  And I think the more that I became aware of what was
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  bothering me, the easier it became for me to find
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  environments where I was doing all right and avoid those where
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  I felt as though I would be overwhelmed.
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  Lack of a better word. It was also easier for me to
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  then speak to teachers and professionals and specialists
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  who we're in a position to help me do something about it and
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  say, hey, like this kind of environment doesn't work for me.
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  Can can we do something about it?
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  And what that thing to do looks like can really change from
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  situation to situation. But just me being able to
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  articulate and say that I think was a really big step in my
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  development when I was in school, because without that
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  recognition of what was triggering me and what was
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  causing meltdowns or shutdowns, I would have really struggled a
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  lot more in school than I did. Yeah, yeah, and and, and going
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  through school itself, you know, it's testament to you and your
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  parents support and the schools that you're in and everything.
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  So what was the transition like getting into work and how did
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  you kind of get into tech And tell us a bit about.
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  I know looking through some of your LinkedIn and listening to
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  some of your podcasts, you mentioned about Cornell and Tech
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  took us about what journey into those roles and, and I guess
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  what did you learn about those environments and you know,
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  inclusion and exclusion, What, what kind of really started to
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  highlight that on that, on that work journey?
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  And that was really interesting because that was the first time
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  I was kind of on my own really having to ad keeper myself asked
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  for what I needed. And also take a step back to ask
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  what are some areas in which I would like to grow and develop
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  and mature as an individual? And what does perhaps look like
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  really varied from situation? A situation and might have a
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  situation where I have to be like really upfront and honest
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  with an instructor or a professor about my being
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  autistic and what that means in this classroom.
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  The number of situations that might mean like putting myself
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  out there a little bit socially, going to an event, going to a
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  social gathering and trying to understand like what's my upper
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  limit for my ability to socialize or be in a situation
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  and trying to find the right happy medium.
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  What was great about the experience at Cornell was that I
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  think there was a very, very broad breadth of experiences
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  that I could choose from. So I could go to, I would say
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  like more intense, more loud party.
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  And then to say, OK, this is not for me.
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  Then I can go to a different event where it was a little bit
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  more pared down, a little bit more laid back.
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  And that was much easier for me to be like, OK, I can actually
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  like survive here. I can talk to people, I can
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  socialize that I'm not feeling overwhelmed.
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  So I think the theme of my time at Cornell was really about
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  trying to calibrate with what my upper limits are, what my
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  capacity was, and then maybe try to grow them slowly over time.
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  But from that early point it was just trying to figure out what
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  can I actually do right now, just trying to calibrate instead
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  of standard. It's, it's all because for me, I
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  mean, I'm not autistic, I'm dyslexic and I reckon I'm, I'm,
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  I'm, I'm absolutely way on the ADA DHD spectrum as well as no
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  two ways about it. But me, for me, I went, I've
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  told you this. I mean, I struggled my way
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  through uni and to a certain degree, you know, I'm not proud
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  to admit it, like cheated as best as I could look in at the
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  people's shoulders, you know, to get by the struggle because it
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  just wasn't any technology that you know, it was pen and paper
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  and blackboards as we said. But I remember, I remember
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  getting into work and it's for you talk about like
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  environments. I used to feel at times really
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  disjointed. I work events, particularly
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  Christmas events, I remember kind of like struggling to be
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  part of the conversation because I always, always felt like I
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  knew, I knew it was different. I knew that.
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  And as I told you, my, my boss on that first graduate role
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  actually told me, Hey, listen, you do know you're dyslexic.
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  Like those was the exact words, but I had almost a similar
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  experience to you. Really.
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  I used to had a group of people that I would kind of cling on to
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  and that was more of a comfort thing for me, like a comfort
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  blanket because I knew wherever they went and the chances were
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  that they weren't going to go to the louder environments, the
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  louder gatherings, it would be the more quiet ones where I
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  could speak and be heard and not worry about how I came across.
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  And it's funny as neurodivergence, we were like, I
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  don't know. We cling on to those, on to
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  those, on to those bits where we feel safe.
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  And it is, it is like we said, it's, it's, it's finding out
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  balance. But this is right.
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  This doesn't feel right. So you go for this feels right
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  every time as a as a, as an employee and and you're now a
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  leader. I see you've done some fantastic
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  things. Does it give you any kind of
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  perspective what it's been to be an employee and and how you
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  would feel at the time you wish your leader had been?
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  As a leader, are you different now?
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  Do you think that because you've seen it from both sides of the
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  spectrums, it changes you as a leader?
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  Absolutely. I think something that I've
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  learned as being a manager, being a leader has been an
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  emotional element to it and trying to understand people
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  where they are in life and trying to calibrate my
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  management style as a function of what do they really need?
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  Like individuals have love languages.
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  People have love language between their family and their
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  friends and people they love, but people have a corporate love
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  language too. Like what do they need from
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  their job? What do they need from their
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  workplace? For some people, a job is just a
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  job. They're just there for the
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  paycheck in order to do good work, but they're maybe not
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  invested in like growing hugely and significantly.
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  Other people are very much focused on excelling and growing
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  and doing more for their organization.
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  And some people are somewhere in the middle or on the extremes.
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  And as a manager, I have had to learn what does it mean to
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  support people in that journey? What do they need from me as
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  their manager to actually feel like they have the tools and
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  support and guidance to succeed? And I've also learned having
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  worked with managers who are not like emotionally available or
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  not emotionally present, that was something that I valued a
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  lot in a manager, somebody who's like, hey, like, how's living at
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  home? How's like your family?
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  How's your pets? Like whatever.
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  It was just like a little chicken, like how are how is
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  Shay the person not Shay the employee?
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  And I always appreciated that. Yeah.
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  I really appreciated that. Yeah.
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  And, and that's kind of how I felt about that.
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  The guy that took me into the office that day and said to me,
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  you do know, I've been correcting your paperwork for
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  the last six months. You know, I, that for me was,
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  was the light on moment for me. And, you know, going through
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  going through numerous jobs after that, like you just
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  mentioned, I came across managers who were, you know,
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  were less sympathetic towards the way I was as an individual
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  and the way I needed to work to make, to make me work in my
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  position. I'm going to take you somewhere
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  now and it's somewhere like I really want to get your thoughts
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  on this. I appreciate that you're, you
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  know, you're from the US and everything.
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  I pulled some pulled some figures down.
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  You kind of touch on what we've just thought about a leader and
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  you're a divergent and an employee.
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  I'm going to run some figures by you now.
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  So this in the UK we have something called disability
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  confidence gaining right And horrible way to describe it my
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  friend, but it is basically a box ticking exercise.
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  So ABC business, if they tickle the boxes they are classed as
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  fingers in the air. Disability confident.
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  Now listen to this. These are true figures as of
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  last week, as of Friday of last week.
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  So in the UK there are only 6000 companies registered as
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  disability confident and there are 5.5 million businesses in
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  the UK. So we are talking what yeah,
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  honestly make true figures and this this data, this data is
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  available off the government website.
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  So they're government backed figures.
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  So it's not not just something I've clocked off AI or anything
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  like that. A genuine figures.
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  And that for me is is bonkers. So I don't know what that is as
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  a percent. I'm guessing about probably 1%,
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  if that. Yeah, really though, my friend.
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  So first of all, you said, wow. I want us to talk about this a
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  bit because this is something I'm really, really keen to dig
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  into this season. That's why I've got you on,
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  because when I came across you, I was blown away by the things
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  you've achieved in life. I think it's a credit to you.
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  Obviously you, you know, have good family around you, but it's
• 18:07
  credit to you that you've got this far and now you leave these
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  businesses and you know, you work for Hotspot now, which is a
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  huge, huge company, but we're in 2025 and 6000 companies.
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  So I would love to talk about first of all, if you and I were
• 18:26
  to jump into a business now and there was 0, like they had
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  nothing for inclusion, nothing to disability, nothing from your
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  Divergent. I would love us to talk about
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  what a business could probably see if they were to become more
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  accessible, more inclusive, and maybe get your thoughts on some
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  of the some of the changes you've seen in America, how it
• 18:49
  helps people like you and I, you know, what do they get out of
• 18:53
  people just by making maybe a small change to a business?
• 18:59
  And yeah, give me your thoughts on those figures actually.
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  First off, unfortunately, I'm not surprised by those figures.
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  I think the idea of being confident you can support
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  customer disabilities most likely stems from a business
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  owner's own interactions with people with disabilities,
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  whether they are disabled or they love someone who is or know
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  somebody who is. I'm sure those affirmations of
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  disability confidence stem either in response to someone in
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  their life or they stem in response to a customer or to
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  some legal issue. There's a lot of reasons why
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  that could be the case. Some of them are genuine at
• 19:34
  wanting to be accessible and some of them might be because
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  their hand was forced by some higher power.
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  When I think about what organizations can do to be more
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  accessible, whether it's for individuals, disabilities, it
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  starts with universal design, it starts with being accessible to
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  everybody. In an absolutely perfect world,
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  none of this stuff would be so specific to neurodivergent
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  people because it would be working for everybody and we
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  wouldn't have to feel like we're singling out people who are
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  neurodivergent. It would be a conversation for.
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  Everybody. Yeah, we wouldn't even be
• 20:07
  talking about it. It's you just walk into your
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  workplace and it's just there. No matter what.
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  You are, who you are, you know? Totally.
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  Yeah. And when I think about
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  accessibility in the workplace, really, I think one of the
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  things that also really, really helps is organizations that have
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  leadership who are disabled or have somebody who is or have
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  somebody who is. That's a huge aspect to what I
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  think about with disability inclusion.
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  When organizations have leaders who are open about it, who are
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  willing to talk about it, or who are trying to put into practice
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  policies that improve accessibility, those are all
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  really huge, huge, huge, huge things that make a massive
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  difference in this realm. Yeah.
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  Do you think, do you think it also makes a difference?
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  I mean, you mentioned that if you've got somebody with a
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  disability or somebody and you're a divergent, for example,
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  driving that change, I guess you also what you also need is buy
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  in from the from senior management.
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  Like otherwise it's like banging your head against the brick
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  wall. Really.
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  If you haven't got the buy in, you do.
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  Can you sort of elaborate a little bit?
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  I don't mind who it is, maybe hopes for or mantra.
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  Give us some sort of examples of what it feels like when you get
• 21:32
  it right. Like for me, I mean, I use tech
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  every day and it is that I guess that's the frustrating thing.
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  Tech is available, right? Tech is available for everybody.
• 21:43
  But you said you just need someone to drive that change.
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  But give us, can you sort of give us an example, a HubSpot
• 21:48
  for example, of how it works and you know what it, what it feels
• 21:53
  like for these people, the differences they say.
• 21:56
  Yeah, At HubSpot, we just started our disability alliance
• 22:00
  ERG. This is something that was years
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  in the making. And ERG is an employee resource
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  group. So it's an organization where
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  individuals with disabilities come together or their
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  caretakers or their loved ones. And we have a community where
• 22:14
  people can share with each other.
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  They can find some empathy from others who may share a diagnosis
• 22:21
  or caretakers who are in a similar position.
• 22:24
  It's a group of people who share in this common purpose or this
• 22:29
  shared social theme. And there's ER GS for
• 22:31
  everything, not just at HubSpot, but everywhere.
• 22:34
  ER GS exist for women, families of people of color, people from
• 22:40
  East Asia. There's ER GS for a lot of
• 22:42
  different reasons, and in HubSpot, disability is one of
• 22:46
  them. And I was really fortunate to
• 22:48
  help be a part of the launch of the Disability Alliance ERG back
• 22:52
  in July for Disability Pride Month.
• 22:54
  It was validating that we were able to put this community
• 22:58
  together and launch it, especially given current events
• 23:02
  in the United States where a lot of the efforts are under fire or
• 23:06
  are being questioned. I was really happy that HubSpot
• 23:09
  is supporting these efforts and wants to make it a priority.
• 23:14
  That's amazing. And I think that's what it,
• 23:18
  that's what, you know, we have, we have people here in the UK
• 23:24
  and there's a terminology for them.
• 23:26
  They call them the hiders. So that the people that go to
• 23:29
  work every day. And I'm sure, I'm sure that I'm
• 23:32
  sure that I'm sure it's in America as well.
• 23:33
  But in, in the UK, it's really proud.
• 23:36
  I mean, there are people that go to work every day and hide the
• 23:42
  fact that they're slightly autistic or they're not like
• 23:46
  dyslexic or they, they suffer with, you know, ADHD or whatever
• 23:52
  it might be. And they go to work every day
• 23:54
  out of pure fear of, of, of saying to their leader or their
• 23:59
  manager, Hey, listener, I could just do with a bit of help here.
• 24:03
  I love the fact that you have like a community there where you
• 24:08
  can share and talk about things. You know, that's a really
• 24:12
  simple, I mean, it probably wasn't, it was a long process to
• 24:15
  put in place, but it's a set if you think about it, you know,
• 24:20
  everybody has like the majority of businesses have like an
• 24:23
  Internet site or something like that.
• 24:26
  You know, such a simple thing, a community where you can share
• 24:30
  about best practice, where you can share bad struggles, where
• 24:34
  you can share about technology you've come across or how you
• 24:36
  work in this way. That's really credit to Hotspot,
• 24:39
  to be fair, particularly like you said, in light of what's
• 24:42
  going on, not, not just in America, but in the UK as well,
• 24:44
  you know? It really is awesome, not just
• 24:47
  for ERG, but anywhere where you have a community.
• 24:50
  There's lots of different neurodiversity communities that
• 24:53
  I'm familiar with that don't just exist at an organizational
• 24:55
  level, but it's just for anybody to join.
• 24:58
  There is ND Connect there, a startup that connects
• 25:02
  neurodivergent people with mentorship opportunities across
• 25:04
  all different spectrums and gamuts of neurodiversity.
• 25:07
  I'm in a Slack organization called Neuro Diversity in Tech,
• 25:10
  which is about neurodivergent tech enthusiasts, people who
• 25:13
  work in the industry, and people who are trying to get into it.
• 25:17
  There's a bunch of Facebook groups and discords as well.
• 25:19
  I think with the revolution of the Internet, we're really
• 25:23
  starting to see a much stronger ability and affinity for people
• 25:26
  to join communities that resonate with them, and confined
• 25:31
  empathy and confined social opportunities that might not
• 25:34
  have otherwise existed. Yeah.
• 25:36
  And that might be in some people's positions, that might
• 25:41
  be all they've got to hang on to, you know, the fact that they
• 25:44
  can talk to somebody else in a similar position and share, you
• 25:48
  know, because it's access to it's, it's a terrible situation.
• 25:52
  And I don't know whether you're aware of what's going on here in
• 25:55
  the UK, but yeah, there's so many cuts and changes in
• 25:59
  education in the workplace. People are really struggling
• 26:03
  and, and there is just a sheer fear of just coming out and
• 26:08
  going. You know what?
• 26:08
  Listen, I'm really struggling here, man.
• 26:10
  I'm struggling every day to do my job.
• 26:12
  And I, I, I must be horrible, A, to go to work, get up every
• 26:17
  morning to go to work and fight that battle.
• 26:19
  But B go home and you, the mental strain you must be
• 26:24
  putting on yourself, battling every day without anybody to
• 26:30
  talk to, any technology to help you, it must be insane.
• 26:34
  I I don't know how these people cope.
• 26:36
  I really don't. It's exhausting or it it can be
• 26:38
  very exhausting when it comes to just the neurodiversity tax, as
• 26:43
  I've heard it called. People can just get so exhausted
• 26:48
  by all of these madding tasks that have to get done.
• 26:53
  And there is a very real autism tax, ADHD tax, a sexy a task
• 26:58
  because you spend more time or more effort or more energy or
• 27:02
  more money on certain things in order to people do.
• 27:05
  And that just kicks people down when it's the last thing that
• 27:07
  they need and it is exhausting to deal with.
• 27:10
  It's just not another brick in the wall.
• 27:14
  I, I don't, you know that our community and I can give you the
• 27:22
  the approximate figure in the UK it's anywhere between 8 and 10%
• 27:28
  that fit into our community in the UK that are in the workplace
• 27:33
  either supported or non supported.
• 27:37
  But if you, if you think about it as a business from a business
• 27:40
  point of view, if ABC business were to or CD or difficult for
• 27:46
  dyslexia to go through the other paper, name any business you
• 27:50
  like. If they actually took a step
• 27:53
  back and they have no policies in place and they looked at the
• 27:59
  change and they thought, right, let's look at this.
• 28:03
  Let's get somebody in to help us with this, with this change that
• 28:07
  we need changing culture. I'd love to see and I'm sure
• 28:13
  it's got to be out there somewhere.
• 28:14
  Some of them must have done some sort of result based focus on on
• 28:21
  what the results were after they'd done these culture
• 28:25
  changes because we we just spoke about these people like the
• 28:30
  burnout and fatigue of hiding day-to-day.
• 28:34
  Imagine giving, you know, Jim or Julie a piece of technology or a
• 28:40
  bit of a bit of support, like you said, a community where
• 28:44
  they've got time, the right product to do their job.
• 28:47
  I wonder what percentage, what higher percentage you get from
• 28:50
  that individual by changing that culture.
• 28:53
  I don't know whether you know the results on that, but I
• 28:56
  reckon it's got to be quite a high percentage, you know.
• 28:58
  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I also don't
• 29:01
  need the numbers to tell you what I've experienced
• 29:03
  anecdotally, when I self disclose or help other people
• 29:07
  disclose their neurodiversity to their managers, to their teams,
• 29:11
  pretty much on every occasion, these people feel like they
• 29:16
  belong more in the workplace because they can be authentic,
• 29:18
  they can be themselves. They feel like they are heard
• 29:20
  and understood, and in those situations where they don't get
• 29:23
  what they need, the company wasn't a good fit for them in
• 29:26
  the first place. So they ended up moving on
• 29:27
  because they realized, oh, this organization actually does not
• 29:30
  have the capacity to support me and I can't be here because they
• 29:35
  can't give me what I need to be successful.
• 29:37
  So I just have to move on for my own sake.
• 29:40
  So even just anecdotally, I can tell you that when individuals
• 29:44
  not only feel supported in their ability to say something and be
• 29:48
  honest and before coming, but then also actually go ahead and
• 29:51
  do that and they self disclose and they talk about it, it
• 29:54
  generally leads to better circumstances.
• 29:56
  Either because their company can support them, or because they
• 30:00
  recognize their company can't support them and they move on
• 30:02
  before they get hurt. Yeah, that is, it's, it's, it's
• 30:07
  shocking. And you know, you think about
• 30:10
  the company then I mean, take away the aspect from the
• 30:13
  individual that's left the business because they don't
• 30:15
  feel, don't feel wanted, don't feel worthy, can't even do their
• 30:18
  job because they're struggling. So they realize this is not a
• 30:21
  place for me, they leave. So if you look at the aspect
• 30:24
  from the business point of view, so they've got the whole hiring
• 30:28
  procedure again. So they've got to hire somebody
• 30:30
  else, which they may use a recruitment consultant.
• 30:32
  So you've got fees there. They've got to go through the
• 30:35
  whole interview process again to find somebody.
• 30:38
  All they needed to do was accommodate that person, make
• 30:41
  that business inclusive, make that inclusive, make that person
• 30:46
  feel wanted and give them the the the things they need to
• 30:52
  work. And it would have stopped all
• 30:55
  that. And you know, I don't think I,
• 30:58
  you know, well, the figures, the figures telling yourself, I just
• 31:01
  don't think there's businesses out there that realize how much
• 31:05
  extra work they're creating by just not making tiny, tiny
• 31:09
  changes. I mean, yes, what, what you
• 31:11
  talked about there at HubSpot, that's, that's, that's next
• 31:15
  level stuff. But there are tiny changes that
• 31:17
  businesses can do to saw someone leaving and then having to go
• 31:21
  through the whole recruitment process again to find
• 31:24
  potentially another person who also might be hiding right then.
• 31:28
  Then you're in the same position again.
• 31:30
  Exactly. It's crazy how people are like,
• 31:34
  oh wow, because I can now talk about a neurodiversity pretty
• 31:36
  openly. Suddenly I realized that I have
• 31:39
  what I need to be successful. Like I think people are afraid
• 31:43
  and worried about talking to their employer because they
• 31:46
  don't know how to go in to respond.
• 31:47
  And that's not that our discredit because a lot of
• 31:50
  people have trauma and negative experiences which stem from them
• 31:54
  having self disclosed in the past.
• 31:56
  And they may have gotten some sort of like reprimand or having
• 31:59
  been fired and let go for those reasons.
• 32:01
  And that's awful to have to feel like your job's on the line when
• 32:05
  you're just trying to ask what you need.
• 32:06
  It sucks. It's awful.
• 32:08
  Yeah, no, I agree. It's shocking.
• 32:11
  And like I say, we're in 2025. I mean, I, I don't know when,
• 32:16
  when we're going to stock up in this conversation.
• 32:18
  I really don't, but I did Well, I just said to you earlier, when
• 32:23
  I started at Xerox, it was pen and paper and, and carbon
• 32:28
  copies. I mean, I tell my son that
• 32:30
  carbon copiers and he looks at me gone out like it's some kind
• 32:33
  of like wizardry. But it was, it was pen and paper
• 32:37
  and carbon copy. Internet had just started to
• 32:40
  become a thing and we were, we were just on the technology of
• 32:45
  scanning to files, right. So we're way back.
• 32:49
  So when I was in the workplace, yes, business had a legitimate
• 32:55
  excuse. I used the word excuse, a
• 32:58
  legitimate excuse not to think about it because really that
• 33:03
  probably wasn't really that much that they could do to help me,
• 33:06
  you know, as a dyslexic, right? Fast forward to 2025, you know,
• 33:13
  as you just said, it sucks. There is, there is, let's be
• 33:16
  honest, there isn't really an excuse is that it's just to say
• 33:19
  to someone, I mean, something really simple like, I don't
• 33:23
  know, a screen meter or text to speech or the list is endless,
• 33:29
  right? It goes on and on and on.
• 33:30
  All these, all these pieces which are so cheap now and so
• 33:35
  affordable, you know, it, it, it's ridiculous that we're still
• 33:39
  having this conversation, you know, a.
• 33:41
  Huge thing that has happened for us has been the advent of remote
• 33:45
  work. Now that COVID has happened,
• 33:49
  there is many, many, many, many more people who can work
• 33:51
  remotely, who can work hybrid because their employer now has
• 33:55
  it as a policy. And we're slowly seeing the
• 33:57
  return to office for a lot of people, but it's now far more
• 34:02
  easy for individuals to ask to work from home versus having to
• 34:07
  be in an office that may be inaccessible to them.
• 34:10
  Did did did you find COVID drove that a lot as well.
• 34:14
  Completely. We would not see the
• 34:16
  ubiquitousness of work from home or hybrid work style without the
• 34:20
  pandemic. And that is not to make lit of
• 34:22
  it at all. It is a side effect of what was
• 34:26
  a very tragic series of events, but it did lead to this event
• 34:32
  occurring for neurodivergent people that we are definitely
• 34:35
  benefiting from. Yeah, I speaking to somebody
• 34:41
  whilst I was in London last week and she was telling me the one
• 34:47
  of the things that she really noticed during the pandemic was
• 34:50
  the some of the things that she used to do in the 80s came back
• 34:57
  to her and I said like what? She's law.
• 35:00
  I started listening to the radio again.
• 35:02
  I'd stop listening to the radio. It kind of had become old hot,
• 35:09
  old fashioned. And she said during the
• 35:12
  pandemic, when I was at home, working from home remotely, I'd
• 35:17
  have the radio on. And she's not a divergent.
• 35:20
  And she said that really, really helps me.
• 35:22
  It's on in the background, it's on choir.
• 35:24
  It just helps me through the day.
• 35:27
  I hear the news, the radios are, she said.
• 35:30
  And if the pandemic come, come, two things wouldn't happen for
• 35:34
  me. First of all, my mental health
• 35:36
  was really struggling in the workplace.
• 35:38
  I was struggling day-to-day to go to the office because of the
• 35:41
  travel aspects and there's not any other.
• 35:44
  So now I have the ability to work from home.
• 35:46
  I can work from home five days a week, three days a week.
• 35:49
  It's entirely up to me whatever I want to do.
• 35:51
  She's But also the aspect that I've started now listening to
• 35:54
  music again, Shadow didn't realize that it stopped.
• 35:59
  So it's funny how the pandemic made these changes.
• 36:02
  And like you said, that's a tiny thing really been that the
• 36:04
  technology was already there to work remote.
• 36:07
  We just weren't in really given the option.
• 36:09
  It was kind of like, oh, you just went to the office, didn't
• 36:11
  you? You just did it.
• 36:12
  You cut out for a second at the end.
• 36:14
  Can you repeat that? I'm sorry.
• 36:15
  Yeah, sorry, I said. You just kind of you, you just
• 36:19
  went to the office, you know, it wasn't, you were expected.
• 36:23
  It was when you went for a job interview, you got a job, this
• 36:26
  is the office location and you just went there and you went
• 36:29
  there every day. And the pandemic really kind of
• 36:33
  like give us the ability, like you said, to say, well, actually
• 36:38
  I can do exactly the same, better probably working from a
• 36:43
  remote location than I can in the office.
• 36:45
  I've got less distractions and you're dead right.
• 36:49
  And and this lady just sits there every day now She has her
• 36:52
  radio on and, and and is happy as as you like, all because of
• 36:57
  the pandemic. So there was some good that came
• 36:58
  out to a certain degree. The pandemic changed people's
• 37:02
  relationships with how they work, honestly, and that was for
• 37:06
  a broad variety of reasons and a broad variety of ways for neuro
• 37:09
  divergent people and by extension anybody with a
• 37:12
  disability, that came down to the nature in which you do your
• 37:15
  work. Can you work from home?
• 37:17
  Can you flex your hours? Can you take time in the middle
• 37:20
  of the day to go do something? I think the pandemic has shown
• 37:23
  that a lot of those things are possible.
• 37:25
  And yes, we as a working society can be flexible to people when
• 37:29
  it helps them get their best work done.
• 37:31
  Like I do that all the time in my current job.
• 37:33
  I'll be like, hey, I have to hop off for a minute to go take care
• 37:36
  of an errand, to go to the an appointment or just do
• 37:39
  something. And as long as I make up that
• 37:40
  work at number times, people don't necessarily dictate how
• 37:44
  that happens. I'm really fortunate to have
• 37:46
  that support for my team. And more and more companies
• 37:49
  should do that, not just for neurodiversity reasons, but just
• 37:52
  in general. It helps everybody.
• 37:54
  No, absolutely. You know, I think I, have you
• 37:59
  ever really thought about, you just said that I actually think
• 38:01
  I'd do more hours now, physical working hours than I did when I
• 38:07
  was in an office. Because when I went to an
• 38:10
  office, I would have to commute. So that would be an hour drive.
• 38:15
  I'd then be in the office until the office closed and the office
• 38:18
  had open and closing hours. Then it was an hour drive back
• 38:21
  home. And by the time I got home in
• 38:23
  traffic it was probably longer. Whereas now I get up, I log on
• 38:28
  relatively early because there's stuff I need to do.
• 38:31
  Same as you, if I've got something I need to do
• 38:33
  personally, I'll go out and do it.
• 38:35
  The I reckon I do more hours now.
• 38:38
  My company definitely gets more out of me now than it did when I
• 38:41
  was office based 100%. Yeah, like I think people are is
• 38:46
  much easier for them to put in more time or do more work when
• 38:51
  they feel like they're in the right environment for that.
• 38:54
  Whatever they're working from home or working in an office,
• 38:56
  whatever that environment is, People now have the ability to
• 39:00
  be a little bit more selective and also reflect what works for
• 39:04
  me as a narrow divergent person. I ask myself all the time, what
• 39:07
  works for me, what about this is working?
• 39:10
  What about it is not working and what do I have to do to change
• 39:13
  this so that I get to the point where I am able to do my best
• 39:17
  possible work? Because if I can't get that
• 39:19
  done, then it doesn't really matter.
• 39:22
  Yeah, I know, I know When we spoke originally, you were in
• 39:28
  Germany doing a marathon, which I think is unbelievable.
• 39:33
  And also, yeah, and I incredible, incredible stuff.
• 39:38
  And I've seen a couple of things where you talk about self
• 39:42
  regulation and sensory challenges.
• 39:47
  How do you how do those strengths play out in the
• 39:50
  workplace for you? I think when it comes to sensory
• 39:53
  regulations, like I wear headphones at my desk pretty
• 39:56
  much all the time. Like even when I'm at home, I
• 39:57
  would wear headphones just so I can focus and zoom in and really
• 40:02
  try to understand what's going on.
• 40:05
  And that really, really, really helps me just stay centered and
• 40:08
  stay focused because I can say to my team around me, hey, I'm
• 40:12
  going to wear headphones at my desk.
• 40:14
  If you need to talk to me, like send me a slack or tap on my
• 40:16
  desk or whatever, you can always talk to me.
• 40:20
  I'm just focusing. And don't be surprised if I'm if
• 40:23
  you're like talking to me about headphones on and I don't hear
• 40:26
  you, it's because their headphones are doing their job.
• 40:29
  Yeah, do you? When you're when you're setting
• 40:32
  yourself a challenge like a marathon, for example, does the
• 40:35
  same apply? Do you need to block out to for
• 40:40
  the effort that goes in a marathon when you're doing the
• 40:42
  training before? Are the headphones for for joy
• 40:47
  to listen to music? Do you wear headphones when
• 40:49
  you're running or are they there also to block out?
• 40:52
  So you'd get a maximum concentration on the job in
• 40:55
  hand, which is 1024 miles, whatever it might be 26 miles
• 41:00
  for a marathon. Do you wear headphones when
• 41:01
  you're running? Our curiosity.
• 41:03
  Yes, all of the above. I wear them I when I work.
• 41:09
  I wear them when I run if I'm not doing.
• 41:11
  I've read this things. Not necessarily.
• 41:14
  I might be like listening to something unlike the speakers,
• 41:16
  but I'm not always having headphones on.
• 41:18
  But I think I do use it a lot in the workplace, especially in the
• 41:21
  office. The office has a lot of ambient
• 41:24
  noise around and it really helps me just tune some of that out.
• 41:28
  When I'm at home is less relevant because it's pretty
• 41:30
  much like just me or my wife upstairs so there's less noise
• 41:33
  to deal with specifically. Like my headphones off if I'm
• 41:36
  just by myself, but if I'm on a call I put them on.
• 41:39
  It's interesting because I, I don't when I'm on a on a Teams
• 41:44
  call or a Google Me, I don't wear headphones.
• 41:48
  The interesting thing is, and I've never really noticed this
• 41:51
  until you just spoke about that, but I'm working on a on a
• 41:54
  webinar at the moment. And today I didn't even realize
• 41:59
  it did it. But I've had my headphones on
• 42:01
  and I know for a fact the music could stop playing, but the
• 42:05
  headphones were still in. But I think you know, you know,
• 42:08
  on on some headphones are you get the background, just the
• 42:12
  noise level goes right down. It did.
• 42:15
  It knocks out a background noise.
• 42:18
  Then I know for a fact the music could start, but I never took
• 42:22
  the headphones off. I just carried on working and I
• 42:24
  think it was for me, I'm kind of like, hey, listen, and this is
• 42:30
  my concentration time. So I've left my headphones in
• 42:34
  and it, I don't know whether it was whether it was a, an
• 42:37
  environment where it just made me feel I was getting more done
• 42:40
  or it was an environment just to tell everybody else.
• 42:42
  And you kind of leave me be for a bit because I'm busy.
• 42:45
  But I didn't even notice that until you just said that
• 42:48
  actually. My wife does sometimes.
• 42:50
  She'll just keep her headphones in and not listen to anything.
• 42:52
  I'm like, what do you mean? Like you're not listening to
• 42:54
  anything? Like, what's the point?
• 42:55
  Yeah, sometimes it just blocks that sound and I'm like, OK,
• 42:59
  that's weird, but OK, everybody does it differently.
• 43:03
  Well, I. Didn't even know until you just
• 43:05
  sat and I've just I just thought on a smile when you said it.
• 43:10
  I'm on today and the music blatantly stopped.
• 43:13
  Maybe I left them in because it's unbolt to press play but I
• 43:16
  think I think it was because I was just finding it easier.
• 43:20
  I couldn't hear and it was very little noise, but I just found
• 43:24
  it was just retaining my focus that bit more interesting.
• 43:28
  I want to I want to kind of give what I like to do is, is part of
• 43:34
  the podcast where AI enable people to reach out to you.
• 43:39
  And what I'd like to do at the end of this is kind of give some
• 43:42
  details if you're happy to share.
• 43:44
  But I think we talked about hiders, we talked about people
• 43:47
  that hiding. So this is kind of advice to
• 43:51
  anyone that listens really. So I'm going to touch a bit on
• 43:53
  here about leaders, which you definitely are.
• 43:57
  And I think you I can see and I can see from your and listen to
• 44:02
  your podcast and I can see from the way you, you hold yourself
• 44:05
  on LinkedIn and things you do, you're definitely a leader that
• 44:08
  leads from the front, which I think is brilliant and that's
• 44:10
  testament to you. So a, I'm going to get some
• 44:13
  advice for some leaders that may be listening because I'm out of
• 44:15
  a song. And I think I'd like to maybe
• 44:17
  get your advice for anybody, anyone that's and the workplace
• 44:26
  and feels they've got to hide. So let's do a question relating
• 44:30
  to leaders. Maybe you can do one, but if you
• 44:36
  think of anything else, by all means checking.
• 44:38
  And let's just say we've got a leader listing right now.
• 44:41
  What's one thing they could do Monday morning just to make the
• 44:45
  workplace genuinely more inclusive?
• 44:47
  Is this something you could think of?
• 44:49
  Seek to understand everybody on your team from a personal level.
• 44:53
  Understand why are they here? What are they trying to do?
• 44:56
  What do they need from you to get their work done?
• 45:00
  Because as a leader, as a manager, you should be motivated
• 45:04
  and inspired to help your team accomplish their fullest
• 45:08
  potential. Do they have what they need to
• 45:11
  do that, They not have what they need to do that and what can you
• 45:14
  do the bridge that gap? I think that's the number one
• 45:16
  thing that you can do regardless of if an individual is
• 45:19
  neurodivergent, disabled or not. It really just helps them show
• 45:23
  up for each other and for you to know that they are doing
• 45:28
  everything that they can and they're at 100%.
• 45:32
  And that and that's not, we're not talking about spending any
• 45:35
  money there. That's a really, really simple
• 45:38
  thing that someone could do on Monday easily, right?
• 45:42
  Like super easy. Exactly.
• 45:45
  Yeah. Well, let's hope someone's
• 45:46
  listening and heard that from, you know, I know there are
• 45:49
  people that listen and. And yeah, that doesn't cost
• 45:55
  anything, guys. Just, you know, just words
• 46:00
  that's sort of like this. And ears.
• 46:01
  Use your ears to listen and just embrace these people and you'll
• 46:05
  see massive change. Massive.
• 46:08
  Just a tiny thing. What about?
• 46:11
  Exactly. It is, it's heartbreaking.
• 46:14
  It's heartbreaking. All right, let's talk about the
• 46:17
  people that hide, which I'd, I know for a fact, right as as a
• 46:21
  guy who reached out to somebody, one of my podcasts about 5 weeks
• 46:28
  ago and he read me a lovely e-mail saying, you know, I'm
• 46:32
  really glad you're doing this in my workplace.
• 46:36
  I've worked at this, this company for nearly seven years.
• 46:41
  They don't know I'm dyslexic, they don't know I'm ADHD.
• 46:44
  I struggle every day. I'm really good at my job.
• 46:49
  So he is he is one of these people that that hides.
• 46:53
  Can we give them? I actually gave this guy some
• 46:58
  advice and I said that feel free to reach out to Tandy, who was
• 47:02
  the guy that had done the podcast for me.
• 47:03
  Can you give anybody kind of one kind step that they could take
• 47:08
  maybe or any advice? Think about this is the opposite
• 47:12
  of what I said, but I still think it's extremely relevant.
• 47:15
  Think about what you need for yourself in the workplace.
• 47:17
  Think about advocating for yourself.
• 47:19
  Nothing matters. It doesn't matter how inclusive
• 47:22
  workspaces, doesn't matter how many leaders and disabilities.
• 47:25
  It doesn't matter if your company's all about it or not.
• 47:28
  The only thing that really matters is are you able and
• 47:32
  willing to speak about what you need?
• 47:36
  And that can be a very fundamental level, like, hey, I
• 47:39
  have to use headphones in the workplace.
• 47:42
  Or it might be, hey, I need an executive functioning coach help
• 47:45
  me succeed. Or I need a screen reader
• 47:47
  software for this to work. Can I get this done?
• 47:50
  But if you don't have the ability or willingness to just
• 47:54
  like ask and say, hey, can we try this, Then it doesn't
• 47:56
  matter. You can want for accessibility
• 47:59
  accommodations all you want, but until you step in and speak up
• 48:04
  it doesn't matter. No I agree mate and I think you
• 48:07
  also need to be current to yourself as well.
• 48:09
  I did this it's OK enjoying your job, but you mentioned earlier,
• 48:17
  you know, sometimes you need to look at it and think, well, if
• 48:19
  this isn't going to change, is it time for me to step away, you
• 48:22
  know, and, and, and find someone who will, will embrace me as an
• 48:25
  individual and, and just let me do my job, you know, because
• 48:29
  that's all these people want to do.
• 48:31
  They just want to do their job and do it.
• 48:32
  They. Just want to do their job.
• 48:34
  Yeah, it's still rocket science really.
• 48:37
  And, and it's, it's heartbreaking that, that there
• 48:40
  are people listening that, that feel they can't come to Someone
• 48:44
  Like You and you're not going to put your arm on and then go, you
• 48:47
  know what, I've got it, man, no problem.
• 48:49
  What do you need? And you know, it would be so
• 48:51
  easy, so easy. It's, it's, it's, it's a sad,
• 48:54
  sad state of affairs. But yeah, listen, I thank you.
• 48:59
  So I always, this is the only other question that I asked
• 49:04
  everybody that comes on this show.
• 49:06
  And it's had some fantastic answers.
• 49:09
  And I'd really love to, to get your thoughts on it.
• 49:12
  So the reason the podcast is called Bit No More is because
• 49:15
  that's all I was called at school shows.
• 49:18
  So I was made to stand in a bin. I was called thick, dumb, stupid
• 49:22
  through all of my school years. So shave.
• 49:27
  What does thick No More mean to you?
• 49:29
  Thick no more, I think, means being less socially oblivious.
• 49:33
  I think I can still find myself in situations where I'm not
• 49:38
  aware of something is going on or I'm just like not picking up
• 49:41
  the details that someone's putting down because I'm just
• 49:43
  oblivious to that. My brain doesn't pick him up.
• 49:45
  I deal with it for sarcasm all the time.
• 49:46
  Someone will be sarcastic or say a joke and I'll be like, are you
• 49:50
  serious? Do you actually mean this or no?
• 49:52
  And I have to be like, please turn it down for me.
• 49:55
  I don't know what you mean. And people are generally
• 49:57
  understanding and forgiving, but I have to really make it
• 49:59
  explicit. Like hey please just work with
• 50:03
  me here. Yeah, beautiful.
• 50:06
  So. I.
• 50:08
  If you're happy, I would love to send people your way.
• 50:12
  So where can people find you, my friend?
• 50:13
  If they want, if they want to hear more about your podcasts,
• 50:16
  they want to hear more about you, where can they?
• 50:18
  Where can they learn more about you?
• 50:20
  I am on LinkedIn. Shay Belsky, there is only one
• 50:24
  of me. If you search for me, you will
• 50:25
  find me, I promise. And I'm on the web.
• 50:28
  Autistic Techie is my podcast on any podcast platform you can
• 50:32
  think of and my website youcanemailmehello@shibalski.com
• 50:37
  and I'm just happy to chat about everything.
• 50:39
  Thank you, Shay. Listen, I really appreciate.
• 50:41
  I know you're a busy, busy man and I know that some of most of
• 50:45
  the words will have resonated with people that listen today.
• 50:48
  So I can't thank you enough. And yeah, you can find Shay's
• 50:51
  work and listen on his podcast on all the information.
• 50:54
  I'll make sure it's on the podcast.
• 50:56
  The bottom cast has podcast for you guys to click on.
• 51:00
  And if the conversation has resonated with you today, share
• 51:04
  with a friend. Remember, labels, their words,
• 51:10
  They don't stick with you. We're here to change the
• 51:12
  narrative, everybody. And Shay Velski, thank you very
• 51:16
  much for joining us on Thick Dermal today.
• 51:19
  Jay, thank you so much for having me.
• 51:21
  Take care.