Latest / Beautifully Complex / 293: Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), with Casey Ehrlich, Ph.D.

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293: Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), with Casey Ehrlich, Ph.D. · Beautifully Complex

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: What's unique about PDA is that the root cause of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: setting off that nervous system is directly tied to perceived
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: losses of autonomy and equality. Meaning if the child perceives
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: that they don't have true freedom and choice, or that
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: someone or something is above them, they will subconsciously perceive
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: threat and have a nervous system response.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: to Beautifully Complex. Everyone, glad to have you here, as
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: well as doctor Casey Erlik, who is here to talk
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: about pathological demand avoidance or PDA. And this is actually
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: something I've never covered on the podcast before, so I'm
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: so excited that we are going to learn what it is,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: what it isn't, how to maybe decipher if your kid's
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: behavior the signals you're seeing are kind of link that way,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and just everything we need to know about PDA, well
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: not everything, obviously, we have thirty minutes, but everything that
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: we'll get us started in understanding PDA we are going
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: to talk about. But Casey, will you first just introduce
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: yourself and let everybody know who you are and what
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: you do.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Sure, hi everyone, thanks for having me. Penny, it's great
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to be here. My name is Casey. I am the
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: founder of at Peace Parents and also a mother to
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: a PDA son and another son whose neurotype is still
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: unclear to me, like many of us with homes. Yeah,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: they are almost ten and six. And in my past life,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: I was a social science researcher, and I bring sort
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: of the scientific process, empirical research blended with my parenting
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: experience and the work I do with families to support
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: just this one specific parenting experience, which is that of
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: raising a pathologically demand avoidant child or team. So it's
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: pretty specialized and happy to talk about whatever is helpful
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to the audience.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just start with defining it. What is pathological
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: demand avoidance?
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a great question because there's actually debate
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: about what PDA actually is. So one of the terms
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: for PDA that I like the most and think is
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: the most accurate is pervasive drive for autonomy because well,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: our kids definitely are avoidant of many things. There's lots
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: of other behaviors that aren't avoidant at all. They can
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: be fixated, controlling, manipulative, targeted, aggressive, shut down behaviors. And
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of root causes that can
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: cause avoidance, like sensory pain from a space being too
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: brightly lit or the sounds too complex, a child is
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: going to rationally avoid that space, or if there's repeated
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: negative social feedback, it's rational to avoid school, right, So
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I think it's useful to clarify what it actually is.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: My definition, which I think is the one that describes
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the causality the most clearly, is a child or teen
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: with a survival drive for autonomy that consistently overrides other
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: survival instincts like eating, hygiene, sleep, safety, and or toileting.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: So what does this mean in real life? Like, this
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: is how I think about it. All of us have
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: brains that have an amygdala, right, We all have that
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: little part of our brain that's like scanning on a
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: subconscious level for what's safe, dangerous, or presenting a life threat.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: And all of us have the same human nervous system responses.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: We have fight flight, where we might be aggressive, oppositional,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: say or do things that aren't who we are as
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: a person. If we're perceiving danger, we have freeze, which
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: is a hybrid state of like being in fight flight
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: but also shut down. Then we have collapse. We can
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: also have fawning and appeasement. What's unique about PDA is
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: that the root cause of setting off that nervous system
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: is directly tied to perceived losses of autonomy and equality.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Meaning if the child perceives that they don't have freedom,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: true freedom and choice, or that someone or something is
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: above them, they will subconsciously perceive threat and have a
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: nervous system response. And so that can look like fight
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: flight and opposition and defiance, but not always. So I'm
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: going to give you kind of an extreme example which
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: was true for my son, to illustrate what I'm talking about,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily always play out in this way.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Before I knew about PDA, and before I even had
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: heard the word neurodiversity, I knew something was different about
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: my son, but I sort of didn't trust that that
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: was true because he was my youngest, my first, sorry,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: not my youngest, my first, and he was extraordinarily difficult
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: from the moment he came out of me. And I
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: would always say, like, he just seems he's been uncomfortable
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: since he was out of the womb, right, and he
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: needed constant undivided attention, and like one on one attention
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: me sort of doing things for him and playing for
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: him and improving to prevent him destroying things or melting down.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: And he seemed to be two totally different versions, even
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: from infancy, where he was constantly screaming when he was
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: with me, but it was only with other people that
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: he seemed to be able to calm. But the survival
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: drive for autonomy overriding other survival instincts was very clear
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: in certain instances. For example, right before he went into burnout,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: we took the kids camping and there was a campfire
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: and we were roasting marshmallows, and he kept wanting to
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: be near the fire, right like four and a half
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: year old, common behavior, not necessarily indicative of anything different,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: But the more we were gently saying like hey, Cooper,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: like don't get near the fire. You know, Hey Bud,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: we need to stay away from the fire. Hey, let's
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: eat our marshmallows over here, the more we were trying
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: to prevent him from doing something, the more he was
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: fixated on, like touching the fire, getting in the fire essentially,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: So in this case, it's an instance of like his
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: brain perceiving more danger around not having freedom and choice
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: of like movement and decisions than the instinct around touching
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: fire and you'll get burned. And so we see this
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: a lot with PDA children and teens over time as
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: they move towards burnout, where it's like maybe they're like
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: increasingly getting picky with eating or increasingly pushing bedtime back,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: or they're having trouble with toilet training, and so the
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: common response to that is traditional, more behaviorally more exposure
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: based approaches of like Okay, we're gonna bring it, we're
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: going to keep doing it, we're gonna give rewards for it.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: with PDA kids, those perceived losses of autonomy and the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: fact that we're putting ourselves above them is actually stressing
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the nervous system to the point where they don't improve
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: on those things. They can actually like have a toileting
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: regression and need to use diapers, or not be able
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: to go in the toilet and go in the bathroom
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: when they're like seven or eight, or they might stop
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: eating all together, which is what happened with my son
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: where for almost two years he only ate lazed potato chips,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: popcorn and pirates booty or you know, the more we
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: approach in sort of these like more traditional ways, it's
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: activating that root cause, and they're not eating when they're hungry,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and they're not sleeping when they're tireds the survival drive
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: for autonomy is actually overriding that. And then the other
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: thing we see is what the nervous system does to
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: get back to a place of safety. So when they
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: feel below neurosept that they're below, they do what's called equalizing,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: which I call the behavioral expression of the disability, which is,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe in the moment you're like, hey, can
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: you can you put your shoes away, like you just
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: came in from school, put your shoes away. They might
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: comply and do what you say, but then they equalize.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: They might go over and knock a bunch of your
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: things off of the table. They might pour out spices
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: if you're cooking, or they might go to the weakest
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: in the family, which is a sibling, and like hover
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: around them and accidentally knock their things over, or like
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: whisper to them that they're stupid and not doing something right.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: So it's actually like targeted behavior to get above another
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: in a controlling, manipulative or aggressive way to get back
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: to that nervous system safety. And what's confusing is it
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: can happen where like they mask or like they'd look
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: totally typical all day at school, or they look totally
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: typical when you're one on one with them, and then
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: as soon as they come home from school, they start
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: escalating and targeting with equalizing behavior, and it sort of
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: makes no sense until you understand the logic. Yeah, right,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: And I think for discerning what it is, often parents
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: come to PDA either as their child isn't burnout, they're
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: having a significant struggle with a basic need, or just
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: literally everything that they've tried according to research education norms
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: parenting just has made things escalate. And so sometimes that's
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: what brings parents to be like, oh, this might be it,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: because observationally in their home, like they have been consistent
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: and they have tried all the different like gentle parenting
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: one two three, magic positive discipline therapy, and it's made
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: things worse.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So what I hear you saying is a lack
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: of autonomy actually feels unsafe, yes, to their nervous system. Yeah,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And so their responses are trying to gain autonomy back
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: because that's what their nervous system needs in order to
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: feel safe. And we know when we feel safe, we
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: feel good, we can feel connected, things are doable, right,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: like that safety is super important for everyday life, right, Yeah.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: But it's very counterintuitive because, Yeah, what's the premise of
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: our logic about parenting is like, we need firm boundaries
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and strict limits and someone in control to make our
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: kids feel safe. And I think that's true for many,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: many children, but for these kids it can actually make
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: them not feel safe and not connected.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you said it really well.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: And the structure, like we do we think as parents
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: that structure creates a sense of security and safety. Can
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: you have structure while also honoring the needs of PDA
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: by leaning more into autonomy.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the way I like to sort of reframe
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: this because I think most PDA kids are also autistic,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: even if they don't quote look like that on the surface,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: many of them are very My son's like very social, outgoing,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: makes eye contact when regulated, so like it's hard for
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: people to believe that he's autistic, even though he has
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: an autism diagnosis, and so he does need rhythms, and
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: he does need predictability, But the predictability comes from my
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: predictable response, right, Like I'm always going to prioritize safety
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: and connection over like correcting something in the moment or
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: him completing a task. I'm going to lower demands according
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: to his nervous systems. So I am very predictable and
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: structured in the logic of how I parent. It doesn't
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: look like that from the outside because I'm following his lead,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: right And PDA kids often are regulated by novelty and
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: dopamine and sensory intense experiences. So like a pattern you
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: might see. I'm gonna tell a story from my own
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: life where yeah, I was constantly like searching for like
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: if I just get this compression shirt, or if I
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: get this fidget, or like if I get this toy
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: that he seemed really interested in that one time, Like
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: he'll get over this, or he'll outgrow it, or you know,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: if we find the activity he's going to latch onto.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: So my husband, I remember when we first moved to
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Michigan from Washington, d C. He took him ice skating,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: and my son loved it, and he was so into
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: it and he was regulated and he appeared typical, and
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: our conclusion was like, oh, maybe this is gonna be
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: what fixes it, Like he'll get really into hockey or
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: ice skating. So the next weekend I was like, okay, Bud,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: like let's go ice skating the two of us, and
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: he refused to get his skates on, refused to get
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: on the ice. We never even got on the ice, right,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: he melted down tears. I was frustrated, and it was
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: very befuddling to me because he had gone out and
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: like been great at ice skating and really loved it.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: But the two things that were going on was like
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the novelty wore off and all of a sudden, the
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: energy I had around it was like expectation and agenda. Yeah,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: and his subconscious brain perceived that and then he avoided it.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: So until you understand the logic, I think the experience
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: for parents is like nothing seems to make sense, Like
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: why is this so paradoxical. Why does this work one
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: day and not another? And often parents are like working
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: through the sensory processing or ad lens and it like
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: sort of helps because there's that in the mix, but
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: there's something else missing. Or they come in through the
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: autism pathway and do the like ABA or the more
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: behavioral routine oriented approaches and things get worse. So those
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: are the two ways that parents sort of land on PDA.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: It makes sense to me that autonomy feels safe and secure, right,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Like I have anxiety. I talk a lot about anxiety,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: and when I feel in control of something, I have
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: less anxiety. I feel more safe, I feel more security,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: even more predictability. So to me, that makes a lot
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of sentence that like autonomy means survival to some nervous systems.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I'm wondering, as you're talking, as a parent, would we
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: ask for their input more so instead of saying, let's
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: go ice skating. And my instinct too as a parent
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: is to lead, right, we want to lead them to
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: what we think is going to be good for them
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: or what we think they should do. And so I guess,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: really my question is how do we balance that between
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: asking them what they want to do, but also you know,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: prioritizing our own goals or boundaries or things like that.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: How does that play out?
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Well, it depends because you know, the way I view PDA,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: and the families I work with are usually families who
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: you know end up in crisis, and it isn't the
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: luxury like a lot of them don't have the luxury
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: of like, how do I prioritize my own needs when
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: my child is deeply in burnout and like right for
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: sure not able to lead their room or attend school
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: or sleep.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think over the long term, it's a really
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: great question. I think the first thing I would say
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: is like, we really have to relearn our children. And
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: this can be very difficult when we have a PDA
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: child because if there are anything like my son, he
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: would not speak to me, like I couldn't have conversations.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Direct questions still activate him, even initiating conversation without him
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: being ready to talk about something, so I for a
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: couple years would get growls or stop talking in response.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't even like we could go into collaborative
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: problem solving. I think for a young child, the way
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: we kind of had to get back to a place
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: of trust was through a lot of play. And what
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that looked like for me an hour a day playing
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: with him, and it was very tedious, but it was
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: very important for our relationship. Where like I would just
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: go in his room, I would set my phone outside
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the room, and like it started with pure sensory play,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: right where we would throw stuffies up in the air
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: and laugh at them, and then like throw them up
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: again and laugh. Or he'd jump on the bed and
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: I'd throw stuffies at him, like for an hour, right,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and then like would climb in and out of the
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: crib and I would climb into the crib with him.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: He'd get out, he'd want me to like change his diaper,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: feed him again, we'd take a nap, and we'd rotate
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: through that for like an hour every day. And I
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: do have families that I work with whose kids are
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: nonverbal or non speaking, and actually, like it's not that
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: different than what some families have to go through because
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: there's not communication, Like you can't actually talk about things
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: with your kids, right, So I think two things. When
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you are using language, using declarative language, like in the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: example you gave of like now what I know? Now,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I might have said like, oh, you had so much
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: fun at ice skating last week with Daddy period, and
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: he probably would have been like stop talking or oh,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: and that would have been my data point to be like, oh,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want to go, but like I didn't even
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: consider that. I was just like he likes, let's go,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: or really getting into the spirit of offerings with an
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: energy of like I'm putting this out there so that
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you know it's there, but like I have no agenda
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: about whether or not we go ice skating. Right, It's
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: just like I might say like, oh, the ice skating
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: rink is open, or you know, like start getting out
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: his hat and his gloves, and he might come over
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: and I would be like I have to kind of
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: feel like ice skating, and he might be like no,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: and then I would pivot. Right, That's what it looked
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: like in the very beginning of like rebuilding an understanding
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: of him. I also I didn't see the child behind
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the threat response, Like he was very much a lot
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of the time sort of like a feral animal or
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: shut down, and so I couldn't see much of who
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: he was. I didn't feel like I understood him, And
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: I also had a hard time, trusting that he was
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: like a good kid because he was aggressive towards me,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: screaming a lot, you know, biting, hitting, kicking, screaming, not
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: doing anything I asked.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: It's easy to kind of say, well, that's their personality totally,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: it's not.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: It's not.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I think we ascribe it to that as you're talking.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: That's why I was thinking, is like, well, we would
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: assume that that is their personality, that those are their
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: character traits, right, and then we would judge them becaise
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: is what we do as humans, right, and then we're
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: wrong and we're escalating things like that confusion that you've
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: talked about several times. Now I'm really starting to like
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: feel it with you, right, like, oh my gosh, well
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: he liked ice skating. It was like the best time
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: of his life two days ago and now he's like, oh,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: ever doing that again? And you're thinking, what am I missing? Right?
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And this is what you're missing? Maybe the PDA, the
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: difference in the nervous system response.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because we worked through a sensory processing disorder lens
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: for about a year and a more gentle parenting lens,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: which did help. And that's like what also can be
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: confusing because he does have sensory issues, right, but they
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: were very fluctuating dependent on how activated his nervous system was,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: and like he wouldn't use the tools right, Like he
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: would scream because my younger son, who was then like
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: two and three, would be like making noises next to
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: him with a lego and he'd scream as if he
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: were in pain. And I bring his headphones over and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: he would throw them back at me and refuse, and
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: if I tried to support him to wear them, it
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: was like a huge feral meltdown. So it was very
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: confusing because I felt like I couldn't figure out a
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: way to help him, and I didn't understand also why
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: he would avoid things that I knew he could do, like,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: for example, when we would be doing something, he would
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: want to do, put his shoes on, get his coat on,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: get out the door, get in the car, maybe even
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: like try and put a seatbelt on. But like if
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I was initiating something, he wouldn't do any of that,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: and he would physically fight me, like the number of
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: times his back was arched and he was like kicking
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: with all the adrenaline at me, just when I was
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: trying to get his car seat on, and I would
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: be like, I don't know what's happening. Like it can't
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: be the car seat if one day you jump in
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and it's totally fine, and the next day you're acting
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: like I'm trying to kill you, Like what's the difference?
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: And the difference was autonomy.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: So I'm kind of hearing like we need to step
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: back and notice things out loud, like I noticed you
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: had a great time ice skating on Saturday, and wait,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: or provide opportunities and wait. Like it seems like there's
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: a common running theme to stop talking so much as
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: a parent because we dictate, right, or it feels controlling,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: even if we're not trying to control. Like when you
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: were like, hey, let's go ice skating, you were thinking
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I want him to be that happy again, right, Yeah,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Like it was totally an amazing parent intention and it
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: completely backfired. Yeah, and that can be like the most
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: confusing thing in the world. But like, yeah, if you
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: just say, wow, I noticed that you had this great time,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: I think you just wait, wait for his input. You're
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: giving him that autonomy and you don't have to like
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: keep talking and keep trying, right, if you just it
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: was something self Perler mentioned to me several years ago,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: who's an executive function coach, and he was like, we
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: talked too much. If we would just notice something and
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: then zip it. Yeah, no matter how long it takes,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: just zip it and wait it will come, which was
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: life changing for me. But it sounds like a very
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: similar strategy can be really helpful for a PDA in
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: the examples that you're giving.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I think also what I'm going to say
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: is going to sound controversial, but I'm just going to
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: go for it because it's yep, go for it. Their
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: root cause of their nervous system activation is is the
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: need for autonomy and equality. But that also means feeling
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: equal to or above, because if we're going back to
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: what you said, Penny, of like in my reptilian brain
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: and my most primal part of the brain as a human,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: what makes me guaranteed that I'll survive, it's if I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: can escape and do what I need to do, and
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: if I'm a more dominant creature. Right, if we're not
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: in the mammalion, safe and social, it's just like the
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: pure reptilian. Then if we can really lean into that
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: as like this is what's making my kid move towards burnout.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: This is what's making my kid like, disabling them from eating,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Like it was from my child for my son. What
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: if I looked at that root cause and I did
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: everything within my power while still staying alive and keeping
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: my family safe and stable, which is a big task.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: How can I give my son as much autonomy as
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: possible and opportunities to be above me? Okay, whether that's
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: like physically above me where he you know, every time
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I speak to him. It's just changed recently, But for
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: like five years, I would sit on the ground and
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: wait for him to initiate contact, right physically below him.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: When we first started eating as a family together, he
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: had the autonomy not to eat with us. We did
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: the equality accommodation of like he would go sit on
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: top of our van, right, and like, what's going to
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: come up for parents? They have to sit at the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: dinner table. They can't sit on top of the van.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: That's rude. The neighbors think we're weird. You know, we
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: share driveway, so it is weird, and like he could fall.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: But I was willing to take those little risks because
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: of how much it benefited his nervous system to be
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: above me. Also let him win every single game one
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: on one right, and parents are always like, that's not fair,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: that's sibling. I started one on one right in a
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: therapeutic environment. In my home environment, when it was one
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: on one, every single game he wins. And it's only
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: now that like he can tolerate because I've brought down
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: all of that nervous system activation. He has a window
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: and he's in his thinking brain he can actually tolerate losing,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: which he does at school with his brother. But in
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: order to get him there, I had to go against
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the conventional wisdom and assumption that kids need to get
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: used to losing. Right. So it's not rocket science to
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: like let your kid climb on the back of a
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: couch or to win shoots and ladders with you. But
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: it's our underlying sensation as parents that were doing it
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: wrong that prevents us, because you know, I still have
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: the voice inside my head that's like, he needs to
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: learn how to lose, he needs to get losing. But
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: for a PDA kid, it's often actually, how many times
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: can I let him feel above me by winning in
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: the home so that when he goes out in the
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: world he has a window. He stayed in his thinking
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: brain with me to learn the game, and so when
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: he goes out, he has access to the skill right
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: of playing competitively. Yeah, but that's very counter intuitive based
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: on the conventional wisdom.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, even if we think of a family structure,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: like the parents are supposed to be in control, right,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: if we listen to what society says, we're supposed to
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: be in control where the authority, And that's for a
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: myriad of reasons, but it creates a hierarchy that is
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: counter to what you're telling SPDA. Kids need that they
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: need to feel more dominant. And when you said, like,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: this is our primal instinct of survival, so many light
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: bulbs went off in my head because it is really
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: hard to accept that your kid needs to feel like
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: they dominate you, right, or that anyone does. It doesn't
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: feel good, it feels unnatural, but it's actually supernatural when
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: you think about it in those terms of like, you know,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: the dinosaur is chasing me, I need to win in
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: order to survive. But I'm wondering, as you said, like
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: he had to win, and that that's counter to what
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: our instincts are as parents, Like we talk a lot
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: about kids need to make mistakes and learn from them, right,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: so that they learn that they can do hard things,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: or that they learn perseverance and resilience. So how does
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: that look different with a kid with PDA.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I like to think of this sequentially, and
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I like to think of this as really tying back
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to like getting to know your PDA child through observation
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: and like connection, because most parents, I think, are going
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: to come to PDA like a true like I think
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: my kid is PDA, or I know without a shadow
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of a doubt my kid is when it tips over
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: into being burnout or it's clearly a nervous system disability
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: where they are disabled from accessing life either in their
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: basic needs or secondary needs like going to school, leaving
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the house, et cetera. So I think like the concern
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: in that time when you are relearning how to be
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: with them and re establishing or establishing for the first
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: time true felt safety with them, like subconsciously, so we're
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: developing the relationship from a different level of felt safety.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: We're bringing down their nervous system activation over time, and
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: we are supporting them to spend more time in their
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: thinking brain through accommodation. That is the period where we're
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: not pushing resilience. We're giving them the opportunity to have
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: a window of tolerance so they can even have resilience. Right.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: It's like someone who just experienced trauma, You're not going
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: to go right into exposure therapy, right. And I've done both,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Like I have panic disorder. I have struggled with panic
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: attacks since I was twenty six. I also have done
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of trauma work. And I think there is
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: a time and a place for it, right for both.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: But I think usually when parents hit that point of
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: like something's got to change. Nothing is working. My kids
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: in burnout, things are falling apart, which is generally when
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: I meet them, I'm teaching them how to do a
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: totally different paradigm, right, Like, and it's probably going to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: take like six to twelve months, because you can go
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: see any therapist, talk to any teacher or any other parent,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: and they're going to tell you what about building resilience
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: and what about frustration tolerance, and what about being a
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: sturdy parent. And so that's not wrong, it's just not
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: like me helping people turn the ship is like not
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: focusing on that and what I tell them is like,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: as you developed that window and learn your child better,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: you're going to see how you can dance on the
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: edge of that threat response. Right. And so it might
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: mean like this is going to sound like maybe it's
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: not getting to exactly your question, but like, let me
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: give you an example. When my son was deep and burnout,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: he needed constant one on one attention at all times.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: And if I would go to the bathroom, like I
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: would come back and like he would be like attacking
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: my other son. Right. So it was like I was
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: constantly making this cost benefit of like can I sit
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: down and have a meal? No, I have to eat
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: standing up with a frozen meal. Right. And if you're
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: a parent of a PDA child, you're going to know
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. Yeah, But once I got my
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: son's nervous system down and re established trust and he
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: was spending less time in his survival brain, then his
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: threshold for about two years was me being like, but
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I'm going to eat for five minutes before I play
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: with you, right, So we had to go way far
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: back to like develop a tolerance. Now it's like hey, Bud,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: like you can jump on your iPad like I'm not
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: going to go on the trampoline today, but that was
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: five years later. And so I think parents. I see
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: this time and again with parents getting stuck where they
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: pull away the accommodations too soon because their child is
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: doing better, and they push too hard because they're scared, like, oh,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: my kid needs to go back to school now, and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: they lose that child led aspect. And so I'm still
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: trying to let my son guide me, like with football,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: like his special interest is football and he plays tackle
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: football and he plays flag football. I never thought he
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: would do this type of thing. I mean, he wouldn't
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: leave the house for a year and a half and
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: has been an occupational therapy for like gross motor planning
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: and all that stuff for five years, more than five years,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: so I was not imagining he would be on a
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: tackle football team, but he expressed interest. My husband used
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: to play football, so he volunteered to be a coach
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: so he could be the safe nervous system. And that
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: is how we pushed a little bit of resilience because
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: he wanted to do football. And there were two out
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: of four practices when he would have a big meltdown,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: teeth chattering, screaming. My husband would have to carry him
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: off the field he escalate, but encourage him to go
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: back the next day and he would right And this
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: year for tackle football, I think that only happened once.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: So it's like I would never push him to do
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: a sport he wasn't interested in. But if he decides
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: he's interested in something, I'm going to dance on the
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: edge of that threshold, using our relationship to help him
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: do something he wants to do. And I actually think
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: he's one of the most resilient kids I've ever met,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: because he's gone through so much trauma and hardship, and
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: like he's still out there, he knows he's PDA, he's
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: trying to make friends. He's compassionate towards other neurodivergent kids,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Like he's a very sensitive, loving child with a nervous
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: system disability. And so if that's not resilience, like I
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: don't know what is. It just doesn't look like neurotypical
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: child who might not have the same challenges that he
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: has had. And yeah, I have a lot of compassion
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: for him.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Your parent, the child that you have, Like we're taught
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: to all parents the exact same way as if we
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: all had the exact same kid, and they were all
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: a small version of us, and none of that is reality.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: We're all to parent the kid that we have. And
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: so what I also heard you saying though, is like,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: sometimes you have to go backward before you can go forward,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Like to climb the ladder, you might have to go
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: back down to the ground and work on your foundation
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: and what the ladder is standing on, and then start
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: climbing the ladder. Again, I think we worry about that
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: as parents. We worry about having to go backward. That
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: feels like we shouldn't right, we're shooting on ourselves again,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: we shouldn't have to go backwards. That that's a problem.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: But sometimes going backwards actually makes when we go forward
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: a lot better. Yeah, and yeah, we just have to
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: accept that. Anything else that we need to know today
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: about PDA, we've already talked for a long time. I
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: can't believe it. It feels like five minutes because I'm learning,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: so I'm like soaking it all up. But what else
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: do you want to tell parents in this conversation?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I think the main thing I want listeners to hear
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: is like, it's not your fault, right, Like you're not crazy?
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: You've always kind of known that something was different. I'm
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: sure that deep in your gut and intuition, Like you know,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: if you're hearing what I'm saying and everything makes sense,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: like you can trust yourself, right, and if it doesn't,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: you can be like, oh, that's interesting, I'm doing the
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: right thing for my kid, Because, as you said, it's
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: like we have to parent the kid that's right in
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: front of us. And I think parents and pdiators often
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: get blamed for their child's behavior. They don't have support,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: they're isolated, and they're constantly made to feel like they're
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: bad parents. And that's like why I created the business
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: that I did because I named it at Peace Parents
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: because it's to support parents to find peace in their
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: unique journey with their PDA child or teen and to
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: like feel confident and empowered even if they're doing a
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: parenting approach that looks from the outside as like quote
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: not good parenting.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we have to be able to separate ourselves
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: from that judgment and not worry about it, which can
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: be really hard.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Right, Oh, it's like impossible not to worry about it
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: at all.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: But it's like, yeah, totally not.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Letting it drive our decisions.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: For me, it was always like in those public spaces
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: where things were going really wrong, I would just remind myself, like,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: he's not giving me a hard time. He's having a
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: hard time, and all of these people who are staring
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: at us right now do not know our story. Yeah,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: and that judgment doesn't matter in that moment. We can
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: worry about it before and after and you know, have
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: to heal from it and all of the things because
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: it is impactful. But trying to figure out how to
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: ground the moment that we're in to focus is something
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I had to work really hard at, honestly, and still
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: sometimes have to work a little bit at right because
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: we're human beings. But tell everybody where they can find
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: you and learn more from you and work with you.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Sure, so feel free to join us on Instagram or
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Facebook at at Peace Parents and we have a website www.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Dot atbesparents dot com. And if you're just starting and interested,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I would recommend our free clarity class which goes through
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: the five characteristics of PDA with examples to help you
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: determine if it fits your child, with some PDF handouts
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: to support you.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: That's amazing and I will link all of that up
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: for everyone in the show notes, which are at PARENTINGADHD
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: and Autism dot com Slash two nine to three for
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: episode two hundred and ninety three. Thank you, Casey for
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: the work that you're doing and for being here and
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: sharing your experiences so openly. It's a real gift for
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: anybody who's struggling, anybody who's thinking this might be PDA
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: or maybe it's not, but they see themselves in your
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: struggle and feel a little less alone and a little
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: more empowered. So I appreciate you so much for being here.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for the invitation. It was a lot of fun.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: And I will see everybody next time. Take good care.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: at PARENTINGADHD and autism dot com and at the Behavior
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Revolution dot com.