Latest / The Curve / RTC33: The best way to put your money where your mouth is

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RTC33: The best way to put your money where your mouth is · The Curve

• 0:00
  Thank you so much for Pathfinder Kiwis ever planned for making this mini series happen.
• 0:04
  It's time to think about not only your bottom line. The world needs us to be investing our money
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• 0:13
  the earth. We all have different standards when it comes to what we think is ethical and what's
• 0:17
  important to us, which is why education is key when it comes to making sure your Kiwis ever funds
• 0:22
  aren't being invested in things that you don't agree with. Pathfinder Kiwis ever planned values
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  the lives of animals, people and the planet. Pathfinder asset management limited is the
• 0:31
  issue of the Pathfinder Kiwis ever plan. You can head to pathfinder.kiwis for more information
• 0:36
  to see their product disclosure statement or check out our show notes.
• 0:40
  Welcome to the Curve Podcast, a conversation for women who want to learn more about money,
• 0:46
  their money for the future they want to have. We're all busy and the pursuit for financial
• 0:51
  confidence and increasing your wealth should be a simple one. This podcast is for women to learn
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  digest and understand everything to do with the world of investing. So thank you for being here
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  and for listening because together we really can raise the curve.
• 1:12
  Hello. Hi. Hello everyone. I'm going to do this intro. I don't just sit and do the
• 1:21
  intro, she's like not really. Wait, probably on the spot so. No, I can do it. I can do it.
• 1:26
  Well this is quite a this particular interview is probably a lot closer to your heart and your work
• 1:32
  in terms of already being pretty across what we're about to talk about. Yes, and we'll go into
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  detail about that shortly, but we have the lovely Olive from Mindful Money joining us today
• 1:45
  for this Pathfinder mini series. Hi, Olive. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here.
• 1:50
  Yeah. No, it's great to have you and you do such an amazing job with Mindful Money and I'm
• 1:55
  really keen to dig in to what it's about when it was started, what your role is, and just
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  do you really talk about ethical investing, responsible investing, conscious investing,
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  the whole world of that kind of investing? So yeah. Can we start from the very beginning because
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  obviously Vec knows all about Mindful Money. I don't. It's definitely a buzzword that I've started
• 2:16
  to hear a lot more recently, but I imagine that there's a lot of our audience that maybe don't know.
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  So could you give a really brief overview as to what Mindful Money is, why it started,
• 2:27
  and how great it is. I'm very biased. Yeah. So Mindful Money, we're at ethical investment charity.
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  We are trying to make money a force for good in New Zealand. We do this in many different ways,
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  but one of the ways we do it is providing transparency over the finance industry. So New Zealand
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  has this really cool law where all funds have to disclose where they're investing. We take that,
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  we do the research on it. Is that just a New Zealand thing? It's just a New Zealand thing.
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  Australia has just passed the law to do it as well, but it has to take a year to catch up.
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  Yeah. Do you mean nowhere else in the world? No, we can use figure out where your money is being
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  invested? No, as transparently as New Zealand. You usually get the top 10 holdings or positions or
• 3:08
  companies, but where you can't see the fine print or where as we, like the fund I manage,
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  we have to disclose every single holding. Holding being a sorry company, every time.
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  Holding is this holding is like, please stop with it. You hold with your hands. This is not
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  obvious for some people. Yeah, company. So nowhere else in the world is there a mindful money?
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  No, nowhere else in the world. How is that possible? I think it's quite cool that it's
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  happening in New Zealand. Our whole pure NZ, all that whole tourism marketing,
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  but it's so good that we actually follow through with finding out what our fund manager's
• 3:48
  investing in. How long has my mindful money been around for? Gosh, I think it's about three
• 3:53
  years now. For the last however long, everyone's just been investing with no clue where the money's
• 3:58
  going. Yeah, very much so. That's why we had people investing in new clear weapons for so long.
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  Can we talk about that as should we go straight into it? This is definitely a hot topic at the
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  moment and not hot in a good sexy way and a really awful, sad way. Yeah, would you be able to
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  talk about how that money is invested and specifically to Kiwi Saver because obviously a lot of
• 4:21
  our money is going off shore for that. It would be great to get some insight because I don't
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  know if it was already well-schooled up, but I'm not at all. So that would be awesome. And maybe
• 4:30
  around how the platform actually works, so in terms of what you can see on it and what what
• 4:35
  investors can find, because that's really key as well. Essentially, when you have money in a
• 4:40
  Kiwi Saver, it is generally being invested on your behalf in different companies. Depending on
• 4:45
  what type of fund you're in. So that's why you can accidentally be invested in new clear weapons
• 4:50
  or fossil fuels or anything like that because they are investing on your behalf. So what often will
• 4:56
  happen is a fund will be since I'd a fund will be since I'd a fund and invest in some funds.
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  Would you mean by that? Well, probably not that far down. So like my fund, for example,
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  would invest into another fund manager and then that fund manager invest another fund manager
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  and then you just lose that visibility. Why would you do that though? Because they've got
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  skills that I might not have. So if I wanted to invest in the US and I don't have the skills to
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  invest in it myself or to find investment ideas or companies, I might take a portion of my fund
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  and invest it with a fund manager over there. That's interesting. So a lot of funds invest like that,
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  a lot of fund managers. And so that happens with Kiwi Saver. That does happen with Kiwi Saver
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  and manage funds as well. So that's where you get the lack of transparency across the full chain
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  of where all the money is going. But we kind of dig down into that. So for nuclear weapons,
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  for example, we had, I think it was 2019, there was a hundred million dollars of our Kiwi Saver
• 5:50
  going directly into nuclear weapon producing companies. A hundred million dollars of New Zealand
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  dollars. Yeah. That's crazy. But now, as of last year, it's down to four million. That's still
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  so much money. I mean, I know that's an improvement and don't get me wrong. We should be
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  celebrating the small ones. But what shows that they're willing to listen to you if New Zealand
• 6:10
  is saying, hey, we don't want to invest in nuclear weapons. They do the work to get it out of
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  their portfolio. Yes. Yeah. And there's, I guess, you want access to that Kiwi Saver money.
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  So it's a no-brainer for that fund to be like, okay, we want to invest in nuclear weapons because
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  we want access to all those Kiwi Saver money. If that makes sense, yeah. I guess it's like
• 6:27
  products as well. If we stop buying certain things eventually, I mean, that's the most power we
• 6:34
  have, that or contacting the businesses directly. Yeah, very much so. And we often get a lot of
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  feedback from people being like, I would never buy a product from Nestle or, I don't know,
• 6:43
  another company like that because of their ethical ratings. But then to find out that I've got
• 6:48
  my life savings invested into a fund that's invested into Nestle and the human rights abuses
• 6:53
  that go along there, people get really upset finding that out. But most, if they're in a
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  traditional fund, you're probably invested in these kind of companies.
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  It's kind of what we've talked about in other podcasts of this series as well, is that whole
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  being in consumer, being an investor, your value should be aligned. If you're consuming in a
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  certain way, so therefore, you know, you're consuming ethically or, you know, you're really conscious
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  about the sustainability of your clothing or what you're eating in terms of eating plant-based.
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  But then you find out that your actions or your investments are doing the opposite.
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  You're kind of like, what? It doesn't really align with your values. But it can be quite a shock
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  to some people, which is good and bad. But yeah, it's so good that there's a platform now that makes
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  it so transparent because just like buying a piece of clothing, you know, there's so many iterations
• 7:37
  to that piece of clothing from the cotton to actually being in a store, for example, that you lose
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  that traceability. So, yeah, to have that from an investment point of view as well.
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  I just wanted to ask about Nestle specifically, why is it so bad when you said, oh,
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  that has such low standards of something? What did you mean by that?
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  That was really about the chocolate industry, I guess, a bit more so Nestle and the human rights
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  abuses around picking the cacao and having no transparency there, etc. Because I did see a few
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  things online that were kind of bashing out Nestle and saying, you know, I wouldn't even invest
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  in them. And I'd love to know some of the key stats or things that are happening there or
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  if you have any knowledge around why it's considered not ethical. Yeah, sure. So,
• 8:26
  look at how cute are your notes. You've got a lot of notes. I mean, so prepared.
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  I've got a stat here of 1.56 million children work in slavery. Yeah, I don't actually know if
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  that's related to the Nestle, but I think that's the chocolate industry in general. So,
• 8:41
  toxic chocolate is a big issue. Holy moly. Yeah, I feel so guilty for eating him in
• 8:48
  him last night. Oh, I also had some milder. I don't even know if these laymakes them, but still,
• 8:52
  I'm like, oh gosh. I must say I was opening him, I never drank milder, like it was so out of
• 8:56
  character for me. I was just having a wedge hook or craving. I recently had COVID and I was home
• 9:00
  alone and feeling a bit sorry for myself. And I found a pot of, what is it called? Like just,
• 9:05
  yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I was making myself this drink and I just sat there thinking,
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  it was the first time that I kind of correlated Nestle. I didn't really understand why it was a
• 9:15
  company that I didn't want to be seen, but I knew that there was things that I didn't agree with
• 9:19
  and that it wasn't particularly ethical. And I had one and normally I would have like five or six.
• 9:24
  You know, when you start, you can't stop. I'm like, I want all the textures. So,
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  yum, let's taste it good. And I was like, nah, actually, I'm a bit pissed off at you.
• 9:31
  I put it in the cupboard and I was like, no more of that.
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  So, one thing on the Nestle thing, what I find really difficult is companies that are doing good
• 9:38
  and bad. Yeah. Like that's the kind of frustrating thing because there's like multi-billion dollar
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  corporations that are donating so much charity or doing so much good as well as bad. And it's
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  your endless dichotomy of like, do I support them because they're doing good or do I not support
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  them because they're doing bad and it's so frustrating, you're almost like torn with what to do
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  because if you don't support them and then that good goes away. But do you think that?
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  But is that kind of like looking at, for example, a fast fashion label that then has an eco brand
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  that comes out? So, there's a portion of their business that is trying to use organic cotton and
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  blah, blah, blah, blah. Or whatever it is that they're considering and that most people would
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  consider ethical, sustainable, etc. But majority of their money is made through unethical means.
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  Surely that outweighs the good that they're totally and that's mean it comes down to what outweighs
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  what? What do you think all of? I feel like you're like, does the good outweigh the bad?
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  It's getting heated. So, for you know, I say, if the good outweighs the bad, then obviously
• 10:37
  invest in it or consume it. But if the bad outweighs the good, I would say not. I guess not.
• 10:43
  Yeah. Ethics are such a personal thing and values are such a personal thing. There's no right and
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  wrong answer really. It just comes down to really what you feel. But then greenwashing is an issue.
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  So, while some people are doing good and some people are doing bad, if they are doing bad and
• 10:58
  they're just putting marketing spit on it, that's what you really need to watch out for.
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  Yeah, that's what I'd be really nervous about. And that's kind of why mine for money exists,
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  to be honest, is because a lot of people were going, hey, we're investing ethically and we looked
• 11:08
  into their portfolio and it wasn't very ethical. So, that's kind of interesting. It was a story
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  when I was a young analyst and we were doing I can invest a roadshow and one person stood up and
• 11:20
  goes, how do you invest in restaurant brands? And I remember thinking, because he said,
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  oh, because you're condoning obesity, because they own KFC, Taco Bell, you know, Carl's
• 11:30
  junior pizza hut at the time, I was like, oh my gosh, that's so true. And then I was like,
• 11:34
  actually, no, they company also creates a lot of jobs for a lot of people.
• 11:39
  Yes, the product that they sell. And you just saw you're kind of in this again.
• 11:42
  Well, see, I would be probably on his site, to be honest, which is interesting because this
• 11:46
  comes down to personal choice, right? Like, I actually wouldn't want to be investing in McDonald's
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  or KFC. I guess that's why mine for money exists, because this is so funny, because it's a thing.
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  And this is what probably would happen with most people, right? Like, what is okay for me? Why
• 12:00
  won't be okay for that? What's okay for that? Why won't be okay for me? And I think that's why
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  you have to be really clear, or the fund manager, or the QISO provider, has to be really clear about
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  what the fund does and doesn't invest in. Because that's what it comes down to. If you're not happy
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  with the exclusions of that fund, which means the companies that it won't invest in,
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  then you need to find a fund that suits your values or your ethics in that way. But if the fund
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  is very clear, we don't invest in this, we don't invest in that. And they actually do that.
• 12:30
  Because some fund say they don't actually know. That says transparent as they can be. And then you
• 12:34
  put mine for money on top of that. And it shows what they actually invest in. And are they saying,
• 12:38
  are they doing what they say they're going to be doing? It's the biggest thing.
• 12:41
  Yeah, because we also have on our platform, like whether a fund has an exclusion policy,
• 12:46
  and then what their holdings are, because often there will still be holdings, even those in
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  exclusion there. What do you mean? So do you might explain it? A bit of false advertising.
• 12:54
  Yeah, it's essentially, they've said they've got an exclusion policy for some animal testing
• 12:59
  or weapons or whatnot, but we still found weapons companies in their portfolio.
• 13:03
  How can they say that though? Isn't that illegal? I guess it's just the funds inside funds,
• 13:06
  inside funds, inside funds, they don't potentially have a full touch. Do you think they might
• 13:10
  not even be aware that they've done it? And it would come down to the fine print thing.
• 13:13
  They might say we don't invest in fossil fuels or weapons and the fine printers. But the funds
• 13:19
  and other funds might, you know, so it's, you just say we don't invest in that. But if we give
• 13:23
  money to someone else, we don't know. So that makes me annoyed. There are so many fine print
• 13:29
  gray area. It's like with any product, you know, even a product on the shelf. We're made in New
• 13:35
  Zealand, but it's actually all made in China and then assembled in New Zealand.
• 13:39
  You know, there's so many things you've just got to, I always, and I think it's just the
• 13:44
  pessimist in me now after working in finance, but I always try and read between the lines or
• 13:50
  look at what they're not saying. It's like, we don't invest in fossil fuels. It's like, okay,
• 13:53
  does that mean that you do invest in controversial weapons, animal cruelty companies, you know,
• 13:57
  gambling tobacco? If you're not calling them all out, that means you are investing in those,
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  but you're just highlighting the one that you don't invest in, you know, you just kind of,
• 14:05
  it's more, don't take things as face value. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And trust like third parties,
• 14:10
  kind of like coming like, right, you're all going for money. Yeah.
• 14:14
  Do you reckon we could go back to some overview as to what we are investing in in New Zealand
• 14:21
  and are probably unaware of? Sure. Yeah. So as of September last year, we invested over two
• 14:28
  billion dollars in fossil fuels for that Kiwi Saver. And so what kind of companies is that?
• 14:35
  You will see the likes of like Exxon mobile and the Air or BP shell, etc, etc. And you'll see
• 14:40
  the likes of like Coca-Cola and whatnot who do extraction. And how much is that two billion?
• 14:45
  Two billion for our Kiwi Saver and about the same for our managed funds. And there was a new
• 14:50
  rule that came out saying that the four year Kiwi Savers have to be fossil fuel free, but yeah,
• 14:55
  there's still a lot of investment in fossil fuels. And I mean, it's not the best investment right
• 15:00
  now for the future and also for returns. Yeah. So what do you mean in terms of it's not the best?
• 15:05
  I mean, obviously, it's not the best for the future, but with returns. Well, I guess there's
• 15:09
  the stranded assets argument. Victoria probably better at explaining stranded assets.
• 15:15
  No, I guess it just means we're kind of what we're talking about before with the whole
• 15:19
  world moving to investing in ESG companies and companies that are actively reducing that
• 15:25
  impact on the environment means that those companies that aren't, so companies that are fossil fuel
• 15:30
  companies, they're not going to have the demand from investors. So the sheer prices are just going
• 15:34
  to go down and down and down. So you basically mean all of from a future projection standpoint,
• 15:40
  the future is not in fossil fuels. Therefore, a long term, it's not the greatest investment,
• 15:44
  is that kind of what you're meaning? Yeah, kind of. And also, if you look at like the indexes and how
• 15:48
  they've tracked the S&P 500 and how that's been going up and then fossil fuels, how very much
• 15:54
  hasn't been following the same trajectory. And if you think about New Zealand saying we're not
• 15:58
  letting our default QSL providers invest in fossil fuels, that's just little New Zealand. You get
• 16:03
  that in Australia, the US, you imagine all those other countries followed suit. I don't know if
• 16:09
  they do already, but you know that that's a whole lot of money. That's billions and billions of
• 16:15
  dollars that those companies won't even have access to again. And also from like a climate action
• 16:20
  perspective, I think it's future-fit, the Auckland kind of, I'm not even sure what it's called,
• 16:26
  but they said that New Zealand average New Zealand admits 7.7 tonnes of CO2 a year. Well,
• 16:32
  we did the calculation of how much you will keep us average bits and that's 3.4 tonnes a year.
• 16:38
  It's like half. Yeah, it's in the companies that you invest in. So going fossil fuel
• 16:44
  in your KVS, it was like a really easy climate action and a really impactful that is a huge
• 16:51
  stat. Everyone listening? Please. I mean, good on you for biking to work, good on you for not eating,
• 16:57
  you know, mate, good on you, but like, look at your KVS. Well, your money has a huge impact
• 17:02
  and where it's going is a huge impact. It's like we said before, it's like voting with your money.
• 17:07
  You're supporting these companies directly. So if you're supporting a nuclear weapons producer,
• 17:11
  your money is going to them. And I think there'd be very few people
• 17:15
  who would go to a shop and buy a gun. Yeah, exactly, but you're probably invested, well,
• 17:20
  I don't know if you're probably invested, but a lot of people are still invested in Lockhead Martin,
• 17:23
  for example. How many KVS providers in New Zealand would be invested in firearms?
• 17:28
  I would say over 100, so. 100 funds. Yeah. Oh, weapons are still, yeah.
• 17:33
  So how does that then work if we were to look at what's been going on in Ukraine and Russia and
• 17:38
  the idea that we're somewhat funding, you know, the production of firearms through our KVS.
• 17:45
  What are the statistics of that? I know less about the production of firearms for Ukraine,
• 17:50
  but I know we did analysis on supporting Russian government bonds in New Zealand. So we ran
• 17:56
  and then asked us on our KVS. We managed funds and worked out kind of how much money was going
• 18:01
  straight into the Kremlin and also kind of. That's the Kremlin. The Russian government.
• 18:05
  Okay, so it's Russian government. Okay. And also aligned industries to the Russian government.
• 18:09
  So Gazprom, for example, and we released that and it was over 100 KVS. It was funds that were
• 18:16
  invested in Russian government bonds and also I saw that. Yeah, it was over over 100 million as
• 18:21
  well, but within a way everyone has divested. It was a very powerful story. As soon as KVS found out,
• 18:29
  they wanted their money out and fund managers were divesting their front centers. So they can move
• 18:33
  really quickly on these things. We need to have a collective voice. We need to stand up for what
• 18:37
  we believe and say, hey, I actually just don't want my money going to Russia when they've just
• 18:42
  invaded Ukraine. We got asked the day after the war was announced. We got emails from clients
• 18:49
  that coming in saying, do I invest in any of your funds invest in that Ukraine or Russia or
• 18:55
  Russia more? And we were like, no, we're a chance to have fun, but we had to go through
• 19:00
  and check the funds and check the companies because we could have invested in a company that has
• 19:05
  operations in Russia or so we had to go through every single company and reach out to those companies
• 19:11
  and ask them and majority of them didn't or was that was kind of like one or two percent,
• 19:16
  but it was more we've got employees there or we've got one manufacturing facility and we're
• 19:21
  trying to help those people get out of Ukraine or out of Russia. But because people just don't
• 19:26
  want to be sitting there watching the TV going, this is absolutely terrible knowing that they're
• 19:31
  actually supporting it. I think there's just a lot of people that that link is missing.
• 19:37
  I think that if you were to ask any Kiwi in New Zealand, this makes me emotional. If you ask
• 19:42
  any Kiwi in New Zealand, would you do support what's going on in Ukraine? Do you support what
• 19:47
  Russia doing to Ukraine right now? I think you would be hard pressed to find one person that
• 19:53
  was in support of it. The second question to ask was, do you know if your money is being
• 19:58
  invested in that area or do you know that do you know if you're supporting them without
• 20:03
  realizing? I reckon there would be no person that could find that out and not want to move
• 20:07
  their money straight away. That would be a cool activity to do. We should go out and ask people
• 20:11
  on the street. Honestly, that's a very good idea. Also, what else can we do? Start a hashtag
• 20:18
  for the kids to do these tags? This is just a quick content break to thank our amazing
• 20:22
  sponsors of this mini series, Pathfinder Kiwi Savor Plan, who have been investing
• 20:26
  ethically since before it was cool. If you want to grow your individual wealth as well as
• 20:30
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  limited, is the issuer of the Pathfinder Kiwi Savor Plan, head to pathfinder.coe for more
• 20:57
  information and a copy of the product disclosure statement. Okay, let's go through some
• 21:02
  gnarly stats because I know that in your cute little notebook, we've got a few things written
• 21:05
  down. I love a stat. Yeah, sure. It's like pumping while I see that. Step, step. Yes, I mean,
• 21:13
  we started with fossil fuels, which is over two billion, so that's a pretty shocking one.
• 21:17
  And then after that, we have human rights abuses, which is about 1.5 billion.
• 21:21
  And what does that actually mean? So that means like, I think that's both human rights and
• 21:25
  environmental abuses. So that is the likes of Nestle. He'll be under that. That will be the likes of,
• 21:30
  I think, proctor and gamble is under that, etc., etc., people who have come up against
• 21:36
  the child labor. It's differently child labor. Modern slavery. Modern slavery. I don't actually know
• 21:41
  exactly how we get that. We get it through a company called Sustainer Linux, who do all the research
• 21:46
  into why they are classified as an environmental violation. I guess Rio Tinto goes under there
• 21:52
  because they blew up the Rio Tinto. So they blew up some aboriginal caves in Australia.
• 22:00
  So that is so bad. And they changed wrong with people. It was that anybody just deferred the blame,
• 22:07
  and nobody was held accountable. And it was, yeah, it was pretty, pretty bad. Yeah. And this was
• 22:13
  years ago, and it's still, like, the repercussions are still happening. So it's a big,
• 22:17
  it's a big mining company in Australia. So it's essentially companies that fall under that
• 22:21
  category, who are either abusing the planet or abusing people. And how much is invested in
• 22:26
  companies like that? Around 1.5 billion. 1.5 billion supporting slavery and detrimental impacts
• 22:33
  in moment. Yeah. Amazing. Good decision, everyone. Well done. This is where he me so much.
• 22:40
  This is a really, yeah, we're going to come out of this. I feel empowered. I feel mad,
• 22:44
  but I feel empowered because we can change it. Australia's, but we're hard. Because I think you're
• 22:48
  right. You know, when you said with all that money pulled out immediately with what was happening
• 22:51
  in Russia. Yeah. The story that mindful money led out. Well, maybe we just need to get creative
• 22:56
  without pitching to media and actually getting this sort of stuff in front of people who can make
• 23:01
  changes and collectively actually get money out of these. Yeah, 100%. And you can just email your
• 23:07
  fund manager, your kiwi saver or your managed fund and say, hey, like maybe you don't want to move
• 23:10
  from them just, yes, or whatnot, but you can just let them know how you feel about it. So I do not
• 23:15
  want to invest in these things. I don't agree with it. So what else is there? So we've done fire on.
• 23:20
  Animal testing. Yep. So that's a big one, generally, for people. And that's about 2.5 billion
• 23:26
  at the moment. Oh, my. So yeah, that's that's likes of L'Oreal, Coca-Cola, etc.
• 23:33
  This is Coca-Cola being test on animals. I'm guessing it's probably some kind of like
• 23:37
  subsidiary of Coca-Cola or. What's it like in Coca-Cola? No, it's a
• 23:43
  So it's like a small part of a company. Well, it's so fun. So you kind of have a, what
• 24:01
  would you call a subsidiary? So it's like a portion of Coca-Cola might make a different
• 24:05
  product that they test on animals. Yeah, or they could be testing on Coca-Cola. I don't
• 24:08
  know. They could be feeding. Yeah, feeding. They might be feeding it to Coca-Cola to see how much
• 24:14
  they can handle or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, Coca-Cola is on the list.
• 24:18
  They're on the list. Yeah. So yeah, there's quite a few companies on the list that you probably
• 24:22
  wouldn't think of. That all kind of want to hear some of them. The thing is they all kind of are
• 24:27
  generally just not nothing companies, but they're like the parent companies that you just wouldn't
• 24:32
  really recognize the brand of, if that makes you sense. But like Johnson and Johnson,
• 24:37
  you do leave a Coca-Cola. Those are the main ones you'd probably know of. Like when you dig
• 24:43
  down into it, you'll see the Maybellines of the world, the laurels of the world, the max of the world,
• 24:49
  the Bobby Browns of the world. Because all those big companies own multiple, multiple brands.
• 24:54
  Yeah. And the problem is with animal testing for cosmetic purposes, which this is actually just
• 24:59
  cosmetic purposes medicines. It's a different category because some people want to test on animals
• 25:04
  if we're doing medication and whatnot. But to be after import a cosmetic product into China,
• 25:09
  you have to legally, at the moment, show that you've tested it on animals. So that's why a lot
• 25:14
  of the big brands, if they're selling in China, they're testing on animals. Whoa. Okay. Well,
• 25:19
  that feels like that would be majority of cosmetic brands, really. Yeah. And then alcohol,
• 25:24
  so some people don't want to invest their money in alcohol. There's lots of different reasons
• 25:27
  where you might not want your money to go into there. And alcohol is kind of one of those industries,
• 25:32
  there's very much centralized. So a lot of the alcohol companies are owned by only a few different
• 25:38
  parent companies. That probably makes it easier, though, doesn't it? Because you can then say,
• 25:41
  okay, well, these are just the two mother companies that I don't want to do. I think there's like seven.
• 25:45
  I'm going off the top of my head now of seven mother companies. Yeah. Yeah. There's like Heineken,
• 25:50
  Kalsburg, Kalsburg, Diazio, Constellation Brands, I think is another one. Moe and Hinesi,
• 25:58
  Elmachia, Penuricard. Yeah, well. Yeah. And then gambling. Some people don't want to see gambling.
• 26:06
  Three hundred and thirty five million. But what even are you investing in? Is that like casinos?
• 26:11
  Casinos. Yeah. Skycinnis. Skycinnis. I feel like everyone would just be shocked to know this.
• 26:17
  Do you go around it every party or social event you're at being like, do you know that your Kiwis
• 26:21
  haven't been invested in? Yeah, it makes a lot of friends. Yeah. I reckon I would. I've
• 26:25
  seen on to a full on matter. I wouldn't be able to be normal or have any other conversation other
• 26:29
  than do you know you're missing casinos and fossil fuels. It's wild that it's not like. Oh,
• 26:34
  I completely agree. I used to hold Kiwis they were changing parties until my friends were like,
• 26:39
  that's enough. I love that. I would have told them about that. I know. Now you spread the message.
• 26:44
  Where's the other party guys? Someone else was hosting. Can we have a party like that? That's a great idea.
• 26:49
  That's a great idea. So what is it? Everyone there had to change on the spot. Was that kind of...
• 26:53
  Oh, I didn't force them to change. But we talked about it and talked through the values and how you
• 26:57
  can do it and what on. Oh my god. We've had so many clever ideas in this podcast. You've
• 27:02
  so by the way. I know. Must write them down. I reckon mine for money is going to turn into just being like
• 27:08
  the most popular organisation in New Zealand. Well, imagine if all this money was going into
• 27:12
  things that were actually good for New Zealand. Yeah. And I think that's the key. Look, why are we not?
• 27:17
  I'm so mad. Imagine everyone would have electric vehicles because they'd be cheap enough to buy.
• 27:23
  Everyone would have access to purchase stuff that they just can't now because it's too expensive
• 27:29
  because it's not the demand's not there. 100% like community housing.
• 27:35
  Community housing projects. Then you've got clean energy. You've got all sorts of great things
• 27:39
  that are available and invest in, but we're still investing in palm oil and GMOs, not tobacco.
• 27:44
  Whoever's managing a kiwi is ever fun. I will come for you. And I will find you.
• 27:51
  And I will make you divest your holdings. Yeah, divest, there's only one piece of the puzzle
• 27:56
  because then you also have, I mean, to be completely fair, some of these holdings will be people who
• 28:01
  are doing shareholder pressure. So what will happen is a fund will hold shares in a company that's
• 28:07
  not particularly great or not doing particularly good things. And then they will try and pressure
• 28:11
  them from the outside. So they'll go to AGMs and they'll vote to try and get the company to clean up.
• 28:16
  And I personally think that's a great way to invest as well because I mean, this there is the
• 28:22
  case of you should just not own them. I get that. But then I also think if the company is responsive
• 28:27
  and they're actually willing to change and either divest part of their business that is exposed
• 28:33
  to fossil fuels or move from animal testing to not testing on animals, then I think if you can
• 28:38
  encourage that and you can get other fund managers and other investors to be like, hey, we don't
• 28:42
  like this part of your business or we don't like how you do this and bring about change so much
• 28:48
  more powerful than you're just selling someone else buys it or you know, it goes private and then
• 28:53
  nothing gets done. So being able to actually get an Airbnb and active investor and engage with
• 28:59
  the company, I think, is so, so powerful. So all of them, if we were to look at the key things,
• 29:05
  takeaways for someone listening, yeah, what is the most powerful thing that we can do other than
• 29:09
  the obvious, which is changing to an ethical kiwis ever provided or someone who is, I know,
• 29:14
  I need to stop throwing that word out there, don't they? Someone that's investing in companies
• 29:18
  that you feel align with your values, other than just swapping, what are some other tips or things
• 29:23
  that we could do? Is it emailing the ones that you're with before you change to say, hey, I'm
• 29:28
  letting you know, I'm taking my money out because you invest in this and this and that's like,
• 29:31
  what can we do? Yeah, I think that's really powerful, letting them know how it doesn't fit my values
• 29:35
  anymore. I'm changing because of this because otherwise you just go down as like a switch number
• 29:40
  and they don't know why you have switched because you're just switched. So if you specifically tell
• 29:45
  them why you've done that, that's great. If you email them and say, hey, I don't want to be invested
• 29:50
  in this. We also sometimes run campaigns at the moment we've got one about impact investment
• 29:55
  and we will essentially get signatures of people who want to invest in good things and then we'll
• 29:59
  present that to a fund manager and say, hey, there is a market here. People do want to invest in
• 30:03
  good things because at the moment we just hear from them saying there's no demand for positive investment.
• 30:08
  But I think if people knew what positive investment is and positive impact is, they would probably
• 30:13
  want it. Oh, definitely. You might get, say, slightly less return now. Well, the funny thing is,
• 30:19
  you're probably not going to earn less. We did some research. We'll find it online for money again.
• 30:24
  And essentially, you're probably going to earn the same amount if not more for investing ethically.
• 30:29
  So it was one of these rare ethical decisions where you actually kind of benefit from doing the right
• 30:34
  thing instead of you suffer from it. That was one of the biggest arguments, you know, back in the day,
• 30:39
  it was like, well, I'm not going to invest consciously or responsibly because I'm not going to get
• 30:43
  as good returns. And so that was kind of the argument and that's what everyone fell back on,
• 30:49
  whereas now we've kind of reached this tipping point where there's enough investors that want to
• 30:52
  invest responsibly, you know, the companies that are responsible in terms of the impact on the
• 30:58
  environment or improving are actually outperforming, you know, the ones that aren't. So you can have
• 31:02
  you cake and editor. If we fast forwarded five years and the platform for money, we had no companies
• 31:09
  investing in fossil fuels, no companies investing in gambling and etc. All those categories.
• 31:15
  What is the aim for money? Is it to get to that point? Is that kind of, or would you then look at
• 31:20
  companies that are having a positive impact on the environment? Very much to move into the space
• 31:24
  of a positive impact on society. So trying to get mainstream funds to, I mean, we're not going to
• 31:31
  make them do all of their investment into positive because they probably won't do that. There
• 31:36
  could be reasons not to, but to get mainstream funds to at least be investing a proportion into
• 31:41
  impact and impact is where you have both a requirement for returns and also an impact measure.
• 31:48
  So set out at the beginning saying, we're going to create this kind of positive impact in the
• 31:52
  world through this investment. Investing in clean water or investing in housing developments or
• 31:57
  that kind of thing. But it's even like if you think of music, for example, radio sessions have to
• 32:03
  play a certain percentage of kiwi music as just a requirement of being a radio session.
• 32:08
  I mean, you know, yeah, I think I don't know how much it is, but there's a decent percentage
• 32:11
  of what is played has to be kiwi artists, which is awesome, but it's kind of a similar concept.
• 32:16
  It's just we need to get to a place where those regulations are actually in place and it's
• 32:21
  that's what I would love to see is the next step is that kiwi's every money stays in New Zealand
• 32:27
  because so much of it goes offshore and that's where it gets hard to find out what it invests in
• 32:31
  because it's going through different funds or different companies or these multi-billion dollar
• 32:35
  companies with different brands. And so if we could keep that in New Zealand, you know,
• 32:40
  create more more companies, more innovation, more jobs, more like yeah, be great.
• 32:45
  So in terms of different kiwi savour providers now that are in a space of, you know,
• 32:51
  not investing in those things, pathfinder is obviously one of those.
• 32:55
  Yes, yeah. Right. Am I right in thinking they don't invest in majority of all of the things
• 33:00
  that you listed from your spreadsheet? I don't think they invest in any, we call them areas of
• 33:04
  concern. I don't think they invest in any areas of concern. That's pretty amazing. That's great.
• 33:09
  And I just feel so grateful that they're putting this podcast series together because
• 33:15
  it's just, it's not only information that we care about as people.
• 33:19
  We want everyone to have that education and not only are they actually doing, you know,
• 33:25
  what you're talking about, am I for money, the entire concept around non-investing and things
• 33:29
  that are negatively affecting the environment, but they're also actively trying to educate people
• 33:35
  on where their money is and what's better it's being invested in. I think that's really awesome.
• 33:40
  Well, that's the thing. It's just about education and asking the questions and finding out,
• 33:45
  and if you're happy with where they're investing, that's fine, but not knowing, you're condoning it
• 33:50
  just as much. If you just don't know, I think knowledge is power and actually knowing where your
• 33:54
  money is going. Yeah, and it's completely free. And I don't think I actually talked about the fact
• 33:58
  that you just can just go up to my full money on the website and just type in the Kiwi Saviour
• 34:03
  fund urine. So if you don't know, go into IRD and whatnot and find out which fund urine,
• 34:07
  but all you need to know is exactly the name of the fund and we'll tell you exactly what's in it
• 34:12
  from those areas of concern. It's super easy and so quick. And is it obvious? Do you have like red
• 34:18
  badge, blue badge, blah, blah, blah, like does it show, is it just come up with the spreadsheet?
• 34:22
  It shows. No, it's not quite just the spreadsheet, luckily. We do have a fancy bar graph,
• 34:27
  which comes out and shows the percentage of each area of concern that you're invested in
• 34:32
  for each fund. And then if you kind of click through, you'll get the names of all the companies.
• 34:36
  And then so say someone saw that and they're like, oh my god, I'm in like a very enormous amount
• 34:41
  of areas of concern. Is there somewhere on your website where they can look at other funds that
• 34:46
  are not investing in those things? Yeah, so we have our mindful funds. So you can kind of access
• 34:51
  them through putting in your values. It's like a little quiz. You can say, I don't want to invest in
• 34:55
  this. I do want to invest in this kind of thing. Actually, we don't yet have that I do want to
• 34:59
  invest in that, but that's a part we're working on, which is quite exciting. And then it will
• 35:03
  suggest that algorithm will suggest funds that meet your criteria and get you have to put in your
• 35:08
  risk profile, etc, etc. But it takes out all that work. We've done all the research that you don't
• 35:14
  have to worry about it. And it only takes like 15 minutes to switch. I love mindful money.
• 35:20
  I'm so passionate about mindful money. Because as soon as you make it difficult, that's when you
• 35:24
  you lose people or they don't do it. So if you make it as simple as possible, which you have,
• 35:29
  it's great. It's such a great platform. Oh, thank you so much for sharing. I feel really emotional.
• 35:35
  I'm not sure if it's that I'm tired or this has just been really inspiring. It's shocking
• 35:40
  but inspiring. And I think if you listen to this podcast episode and you also feel passionately
• 35:45
  about the fact that we need to be aware of where our money is going, then please share it with
• 35:50
  your friends, share it on socials. Like people will benefit and the world will benefit so much
• 35:55
  from us all being aware of our money is. And we'll see you on the streets. Yeah, we're going to
• 36:00
  be. We're going to be out there. We're trying to find some curved merch, find a microphone somewhere,
• 36:06
  shove it in your face, and ask for the tough questions. But I reckon this is a thing we should
• 36:11
  definitely do. Yeah. Well, just guess our content strategy asks for just. But thank you, you know,
• 36:17
  love. We really are so grateful for your time. So thank you. Thank you. No worries. Thank you.
• 36:22
  Thank you so much for joining us for today's episode of Raising the Curve. Please subscribe and
• 36:27
  leave a review on what ever platform you're listening on. And we would also love for you to share
• 36:31
  this podcast with anyone you think would benefit from it. For more information about the curve and
• 36:36
  how you can learn more, head to the curve.co.nz or find us on socials at the underscore curve NZ.
• 36:44
  And I find a Kiwisana plan is the amazing sponsor of this mini series. They are proud to help
• 36:49
  you save your future without costing the earth. You can grow your individual wealth while
• 36:53
  also caring about the collective wellbeing of the planet. Pathfinder asset management limited
• 36:58
  is the issue of the pathfinder Kiwis over plan. So you can head to pathfinder.co.nz for more
• 37:02
  information in their product disclosure statement or check out the link in our show notes.