Latest / Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan / Ep. 7 - Worship Music Today: Turn it Up - or Tone it Down?

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Ep. 7 - Worship Music Today: Turn it Up - or Tone it Down? · Fulfilled with Rebecca Sheehan

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome to Fulfilled.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Rebecca Sheehan.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: I truly get excited about every topic I cover,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: but this one is especially close to my heart,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: worship music.
• 0:19
  If you know my story,
• 0:20
  you know that I was raised Jewish and came to Christianity
• 0:23
  later in life.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when our family first started attending church,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: the sermons were so inspiring,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: but if I'm being honest,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: it was the music that really drew me in.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the songs sung at this particular church we went to were hymns,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: both traditional and modern.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And as a new Christian who knew basically none of them,
• 0:42
  these songs provided an incredible opportunity to not only get
• 0:45
  a catchy tune stuck
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: in my head for the rest of the day,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: but the gospel message.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: So after church,
• 0:51
  I'd go home and immediately look up the worship songs I'd
• 0:55
  really connected with
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: that morning.
• 0:57
  I'd listen to about a dozen different renditions until I found
• 0:59
  my favorites.
• 1:01
  That became a little playlist which started with Shane and
• 1:04
  Shane's version of His
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Mercy is More,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: City Light's Grace,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: and the classic Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing.
• 1:10
  And it's grown into a pretty sizable library of worship songs
• 1:13
  that I love listening
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: to almost every day.
• 1:15
  And I can definitely share a link in the show notes if you'd
• 1:18
  like to check it out.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward a few years,
• 1:22
  our family relocated to Florida away from our beloved
• 1:25
  traditional PCA Presbyterian
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Church,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: and we found ourselves church shopping.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I first experienced charismatic worship,
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: a kind that emphasizes praise,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: emotion,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: and encountering the Holy Spirit.
• 1:39
  The bands are incredibly talented,
• 1:41
  but when I listened to the lyrics,
• 1:43
  something felt missing.
• 1:46
  The passion was there,
• 1:47
  but the scriptural depth I'd grown to love was not.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that difference both bothered and intrigued me, so I started digging.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is a lot at stake here.
• 1:56
  Music is such an integral part of the experience someone has
• 1:59
  when they visit a
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: church,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: and it could cause them to walk out and never return,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: or return every Sunday.
• 2:05
  So when I came across the contemporary praise and worship
• 2:09
  research of Lester Ruth,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: who's a worship historian,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: author,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: and Duke Divinity School professor,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: bonus that he teaches at my alma mater,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I had to have him on the show.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he brought a friend,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Suihong Lim,
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: a sacred music professor at the University of Toronto,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: whose expertise will add even more depth to this conversation.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you two have co-authored two books together.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I am so glad to have you both on the show today.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's good to be here.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's good to be here.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So before we delve into the trends and history of worship music,
• 2:43
  I'd love to discuss the differences between modern hymns and
• 2:46
  contemporary praise
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: and worship.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think once we understand the differences,
• 2:51
  then we will see that both types of music genre actually have a
• 2:56
  place in Christian
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: worship.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So hymns basically have multiple verses sung to the same tune.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: The focus on hymns is basically communicating theological ideas.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's why you resonate with them with your PCA background.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 3:12
  they don't have time to incorporate a chorus because there's so
• 3:16
  much theology they
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: have to include,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So in our own tradition, Sui Hong and I are both Methodists.
• 3:24
  One of the originators of that potentially taught theology
• 3:28
  through lyrical form.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So he had 166 hymns to teach about the Lord's Supper.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: He had 160 hymns to teach on the Trinity.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, no single congregation needs 166 communion hymns, okay?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: But he was doing it because he was teaching theology.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: And the structure of a modern worship song, a praise and worship song,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: doesn't really lend itself to that sort of teaching role at all.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because the modern worship songs has a different function.
• 4:03
  It is emotionally driven and it's meant to achieve certain
• 4:08
  emotional outcome in
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: terms of this music.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: They are just to evoke the feeling that God is present with you.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: One is more meditative and one is much more teaching of theology.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: different function.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's really about knowing God.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know God when you feel something deeply,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: or you know God when you understand something deeply.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Those are two different sort of spiritualities,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: both legitimate,
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: but they have their own sort of internal logic to them.
• 4:36
  And I started thinking about something else in terms of the
• 4:39
  importance of the two
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: types of songs.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it depends on whether or not people have access to text.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hymns are so word heavy.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if you want the congregation to move while they're worshiping,
• 4:55
  Shorter cyclical songs are what you need,
• 4:58
  so you don't have to think as hard on the words.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can just repeat a pretty simple set of words,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: and that frees up the ability to hold hands,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: to move through the space,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: to get your whole body much more engaged.
• 5:13
  Do you find that those two camps have sort of become more and
• 5:16
  more divided as the
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: years have gone on?
• 5:20
  Well,
• 5:21
  there's a tension right now because in a larger historical
• 5:24
  context,
• 5:26
  We're in a period of church history where consumerist attitudes
• 5:32
  are very easily
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: brought to church on Sunday morning.
• 5:35
  And so people tend to have a preference or a tendency towards
• 5:39
  one or the other.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the long history of Christian worship,
• 5:43
  if you go back all 2000 years and you can start seeing
• 5:46
  documentation of how
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Christians worship,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: like in the third,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: fourth,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: fifth century,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: you actually saw that services were a combination of both forms.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: that you had songs that were carrying doctrinal content,
• 5:58
  but you also had songs in the same service that were nothing
• 6:02
  but explosive
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: emotional outbursts.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Even the classic forms of communion prayers are a combination of the two.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: The main text of the prayer
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: would be deeply,
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: richly theological,
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: but every couple of times in the prayer,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: you would get this burst.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Holy,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: holy,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: holy Lord,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: God of power and might,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hosanna in the highest,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
• 6:26
  That's just inserted right in the middle of the classic
• 6:28
  communion prayers.
• 6:29
  I mean,
• 6:29
  that's nothing but a praise and worship song from the fourth
• 6:33
  century.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: and you can even trace it back even earlier,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: like for example,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: the scripture that Paul the Apostle wrote in Ephesians and in Colossians,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: worship God with psalms,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: hymns,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: and spiritual songs.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: If we unpack this,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: psalms,
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: human emotions are involved in that one,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: hymns,
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: which are theological training,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: and spiritual songs,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: relevant,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: updated songs.
• 7:02
  Paul expects all those three different musical genres to be
• 7:06
  used in Christian worship.
• 7:07
  So why doesn't every church service include a little bit of
• 7:11
  each of those three?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, sounds simple.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Good question.
• 7:17
  Churches and their worship practices are not always the most
• 7:20
  progressive places.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Congregations fall into patterns and habits as do traditions.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:28
  A lot of churches,
• 7:30
  long-standing churches,
• 7:31
  don't go into contemporary priests and worship.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's because,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 7:35
  it does not convey the gravitas of Christian worship that they
• 7:40
  are so used to.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I can tell you for a fact that many churches outside of North America,
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: they rather not have drums.
• 7:48
  And you do know that praise and worship songs need the drums to
• 7:52
  be there.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: They actually work.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: If they're not there, it doesn't work.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So again, this whole idea of music aesthetics is a major factor.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: I listened to another podcast that you were both in together,
• 8:04
  and you talked about the two Bible verses that praise and
• 8:07
  worship music is based
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: on,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Psalm 22.3 and Hebrews 13.15.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 8:16
  So what we're looking at is that there was a new distinctive
• 8:20
  theology of worship
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: that arose in the late 1940s into the 1950s,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: and those two scriptures were particularly important,
• 8:28
  and that they established an expectation that if a congregation
• 8:33
  will meet and spend
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: an extended period of time in praising God,
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: God would honor that
• 8:40
  by showing up essentially that god inhabits the praises of his
• 8:45
  people to paraphrase
• 8:46
  that second half of psalm 22 3 and so this was a pentecostal
• 8:51
  spirituality in
• 8:52
  theology this was connected with the hebrews scripture about
• 8:57
  lifting up a sacrifice
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: of praise which in this theology gave them an explicit command
• 9:04
  So it wasn't a matter of waiting patiently,
• 9:06
  seeing what the Spirit would lead us to do.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, we have it in the Word of God.
• 9:11
  We are to lift up a sacrifice of praise,
• 9:13
  regardless of whether or not you feel like it.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then God would honor that praise by becoming present.
• 9:19
  And as that develops in the 50s,
• 9:22
  60s,
• 9:22
  70s,
• 9:23
  that establishes into a set sort of pattern.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: An extended period of congregational singing that emphasized the praise,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: exaltation,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: the honoring of God.
• 9:36
  And then eventually after you praised for a while and you
• 9:39
  sensed God's presence
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: through your emotions and affections,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: then you shifted over into more worshipful sort of songs.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So the tempos would seem to change.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Keys would even seem to change.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Much more love language.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Those were the worship songs per se.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: How's that, Sweet Hong?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's correct, yeah.
• 10:01
  How does the songwriting process differ between writing modern
• 10:05
  hymns and writing
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: praise and worship songs?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Especially nowadays,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 10:10
  when so many of the popular praise and worship songs are coming
• 10:15
  from a few
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: powerhouses,
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: like Hillsong and Elevation.
• 10:20
  One of the things that you will notice in the present-day
• 10:23
  priest and worship
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: songwriting is they have moved away from a single songwriter.
• 10:30
  Not many songwriters in the present priest and worship genre
• 10:35
  actually have a degree.
• 10:36
  It is very interesting to see that they are now responding to a
• 10:40
  need for better
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: theology in their songwriting.
• 10:45
  you'll notice that most of the time now you're going to see two
• 10:48
  or three songwriters.
• 10:50
  What is also interesting that I shared with you earlier on is
• 10:54
  that some songwriters
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: are now trying to recover the ancient texts.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: They are actually writing new tunes to ancient texts.
• 11:05
  I shared with you a particular clip that is also found in
• 11:07
  Christianity today.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you can share with you?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I actually have it pulled up.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was listening to it.
• 11:12
  I was very happy that you sent that to me because I was having
• 11:15
  the same exact
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: thought that too bad we can't listen to the very first worship songs.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what were those like?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Did they embody the emotion or the theology or both?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I can play a little bit of this.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please do.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: We see.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Seems like a good stopping point.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful song, very poetic and lots of praise.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the strength of priest and worship songs in the present time.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: But there are also limitations.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Priest and worship music is not strong in the area of lament.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: or dealing with certain thorny issues in society.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's not their strength.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Their strength is more devotional and more doxological.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think to have a balanced diet in the music repertoire of the church,
• 12:31
  you really need to have hymns as well as worship songs in the
• 12:36
  worship service.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Shifting gears a little bit to the worship services themselves,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: let's talk about how different worship looks now than it did then.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Lester, I think you said, what in the world, right?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Looking at worship nowadays.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: One of the biggest developments or biggest shifts,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: I would put it that way,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: really started coming about in the 1990s or so,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: where you started getting more direct appropriation of concert ritual.
• 13:06
  and how praise and worship is done and so even the the musical
• 13:11
  instrumentation
• 13:13
  becomes much more like a rock band the way the lighting is
• 13:18
  utilized um is much more
• 13:21
  like a rock concert even the haze or smoke machines you
• 13:25
  wouldn't have seen anything
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: like that 40 years ago but then
• 13:29
  You know,
• 13:30
  by 20 years ago,
• 13:31
  they're becoming more widespread and now they're ubiquitous.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're everywhere.
• 13:36
  So,
• 13:36
  I mean,
• 13:37
  there are upsides and downsides to every sort of enculturation
• 13:40
  of a way of worship.
• 13:41
  The upside is because it's appropriated from the wider culture,
• 13:46
  people know how to engage in it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's accessible to them.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: It feels familiar.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: The downside is unless they're careful,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: it really diminishes the role of the congregational voice and singing.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if the soundboard's not handled well,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: you can't hear yourself,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: not to mention the congregation singing.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's vastly different in the history of this phenomenon.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: You go back to 1980,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: and in any church practicing early praise and worship,
• 14:17
  the main voice that you're hearing in the songs is the
• 14:20
  congregational one.
• 14:22
  We checked out a service here recently,
• 14:24
  and they actually handed the kids earplugs.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: because they knew that the music was going to be so loud.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: I like loud music,
• 14:33
  but I like it loud when it's the congregational singing voice
• 14:37
  that I'm hearing.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: The drums are always so loud.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: I sound like a grandmother, but... Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: But see, that's an appropriation of, you know, rock concert ritual.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's interesting to look at why this came about.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And correct me if I'm wrong,
• 14:55
  but it's because there's sort of a merging of worship songs and
• 15:00
  radio singles.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: People love hearing songs that they know.
• 15:04
  So they started playing worship songs on the radio and radio
• 15:07
  songs in church.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it kind of blurred all of these lines.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's fair.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think largely through the 1980s,
• 15:16
  you would have had one clear set of Christian artists who
• 15:20
  produced listening music.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 15:24
  you bought their albums and you listened and you sang along
• 15:27
  with them in the car,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: or in my case,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: in college,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: at my dorm room,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you had different artists composing and leading worship.
• 15:37
  This division is going to break down,
• 15:41
  and by and large,
• 15:43
  worship leaders...
• 15:44
  And worship songwriters become the major recording artist for
• 15:50
  the listening music
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: and vice versa.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And by the 1990s, the worship albums become big money.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like a moth in a light.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: You dangle money in front of the industry and they will be attracted.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's so unchristian.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Potentially, yes.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's ironic when you think of the genre we're dealing with.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: What's disappointing,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to call it un-Christian,
• 16:15
  what's disappointing is that the making of money becomes the
• 16:19
  primary or sole
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: motivation.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:22
  And I think one of the things we've really lost because of that
• 16:26
  is that the
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: songwriting of the most popular,
• 16:28
  widely distributed songs is pretty tightly concentrated in just
• 16:33
  a few locales.
• 16:35
  Whereas in the 60s,
• 16:37
  70s and 80s,
• 16:38
  it was much more organic and widespread and grassroots.
• 16:44
  And I think in some respects,
• 16:47
  oh,
• 16:47
  gosh,
• 16:47
  it sounds so bad because it wasn't mass produced.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: There was an artistry to it.
• 16:53
  There was a kind of an authenticity that really has to be very
• 16:56
  intentionally aimed for now.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sui Hong, I apologize to the listeners.
• 17:02
  Sui Hong and I have known each other closely and worked with
• 17:05
  each other close to 20 plus years.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we're so used to having these conversations among ourselves.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of bypassing you sometimes, Rebecca.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's all right.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Carry on, carry on.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to jump in with one point.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of ironic if you think about it,
• 17:20
  because I feel like Spotify and streaming music has
• 17:23
  democratized music in so many
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: ways.
• 17:26
  You can get your music out there just as easily as a more
• 17:30
  famous artist can.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: But here in Christian worship music, you see these powerhouses forming.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why do churches always choose those songs to sing?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because people know them and request them or it's easier to sing?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's convenient.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's much more convenient that if you have a CCLI license,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: you just use whatever is on CCLI in terms of copyright reporting.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you find somebody who is a standalone artist,
• 17:59
  it's much more difficult because you can imagine writing to the
• 18:01
  artist every time
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: you want to use a person's music.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So CCLI, that's the copyright and licensing?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Christian Copyright Licensing International.
• 18:11
  This reminds me of something I wanted to add,
• 18:13
  Swing Hong,
• 18:14
  about the convenience.
• 18:16
  I don't think we're trying to say that people are lazy by
• 18:20
  taking the more convenient route.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that there are so many songs today.
• 18:26
  And the life cycle of most songs is so much shorter than it was
• 18:32
  30,
• 18:34
  40 years ago.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when you're overwhelmed by this tsunami of number of songs,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: even from the major powerhouses.
• 18:43
  You go to CCLI and you look at their top 100 list,
• 18:47
  you see what's popular.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: the other thing that you want to keep in mind,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: what Lesnar talked about longevity of a piece of music,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing Grace,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: 250 years at least,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: compared to a current day,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: present,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: praise and worship song,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: six months.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: You see the difference in terms of the power,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: longevity of a hymn compared to a praise and worship song.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: In Christ Alone is over 20 years old now,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: and I feel like that one is still sung very often.
• 19:16
  So do you think that hymns,
• 19:18
  whether they're modern or traditional,
• 19:19
  have more staying power?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because of the theological content.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a historian,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: so I tend to look backwards rather than forward,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: but I would not be surprised if in a hundred years
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Of the songs being written right now,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: it's the Keith Getty,
• 19:36
  Stuart Townend songs and a few Matt Redman songs that have
• 19:41
  staying power 100 years,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: 150 years from now.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of Stuart Townend,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: as I mentioned,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I am somewhat new to Christianity,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: so I don't know all the hymns.
• 19:51
  I heard how deep the Father's love for us for the first time at
• 19:54
  church a few weeks ago.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the verse of our sins being on Jesus's shoulders on the cross,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was the most powerful moment in the service for me.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just hit me.
• 20:07
  But I guess everyone's different in the way that,
• 20:11
  you know,
• 20:11
  they connect with God.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I might be more intellectual,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: less outwardly emotional,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I do think that hymns have that power.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: One info bit for you, Rebecca, if you didn't know.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Stuart Thornton used to be a writing partner with Keith Getty.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't surprise me.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:30
  But maybe it doesn't matter so much that the praise and worship
• 20:34
  songs don't have
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: the same longevity.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the impact, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, on the other side of the coin.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: For example, there's a song by Elevation called Praise.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: That seems to be spreading to other parts of the world as well.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now they have multiple different versions in Asia.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love that song.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good one.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I used it in a TikTok video or something.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's trending.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: the praise and worship music is working because,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: those churches are packed with so many people who just love that music.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, there's definitely something to it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: And lest any of the listeners get the wrong impression,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Sui Hong and I both love that sort of music too.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Play it, sing it, use it.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I used to play in a band using this kind of music.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I did too.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, this will sound so morbid to the listeners.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: I recently planned my funeral.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I built both types of music into the,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: in fact,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: I put one of your renditions of a Charles Wesley hymn in there too.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: When I put in Hill's songs, Mighty to Save, which is a song I love.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also put in,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I believe it's an Isaac Watts text,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: when my voice is lost in death,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: praise shall employ my nobler powers.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I put that in because it carries more content.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So to follow up on what Lester is saying,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: when we are planning a worship service,
• 22:04
  you can have different songs in different places within the
• 22:06
  worship service.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes a trained worship leader,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: a trained musician,
• 22:12
  a trained minister to think through this whole idea as a team
• 22:16
  cooperating together
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: to design the worship service.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot slap three hymns and a prayer together for a worship service.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have to discern and strategically plan the service that way.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Then you can make use of hymns and worship songs.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't agree more.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just going back to something you said a little while ago,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: the praise and worship songs don't do a good job of lamentation.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: They do seem a little bit light on the doctrine of sin.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: They don't like to talk about sin very much.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: to your point,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Suihong,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: when you only have those songs in a service,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: you're really missing a key aspect of the gospel.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we need Jesus.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: They especially don't talk about sin as active.
• 23:05
  They'll talk about we have sin that God cleanses or takes away,
• 23:09
  but we don't necessarily sin.
• 23:12
  I would love to see new contemporary praise and worship songs
• 23:16
  talking about the
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: holiness of God,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: not in terms of majesty and power,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: but the holiness of God talking in terms of utter capacity to love.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so God is holy because God loves so deeply the entire world.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: We are not holy because we have a deficit of love, and that's how we sin.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: I really don't think the lyrics go there.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: They tend to use holiness as a power motif.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We ought to pass this along to Hillsong and Elevation,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: a whole new subset of songs that they can write.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: so many of these composers are now coming from Pentecostal backgrounds,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: and a power motif is dominant,
• 24:04
  and that creates a spirituality that's not totally in sync or
• 24:08
  harmony with the New
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Testament itself.
• 24:11
  I don't know how you do a driving rock version of Jesus'
• 24:16
  beatitude,
• 24:17
  blessed are the meek.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great point.
• 24:18
  It's like the musical style itself sort of lends itself better
• 24:22
  to the power.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Motif.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 24:27
  that's a little bit of a shift because much of the music making
• 24:31
  in the 60s and 70s
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: was more of a funk sort of genre.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: than necessarily a rock sort of genre.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so as we've slipped more and more into a rock mindset,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: the attraction to power is already there.
• 24:45
  In fact,
• 24:46
  I would say the attraction to power is part of our innate
• 24:49
  sinfulness.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's easy just for that to get reinforced.
• 24:54
  So how can we marry modern hymns and contemporary praise and
• 24:59
  worship songs in the same service?
• 25:01
  Because it sounds like we all agree that that would be sort of
• 25:05
  the ideal situation.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: For me,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: speaking as a musician,
• 25:09
  he thing is to understand what are the functions that music can
• 25:12
  contribute to
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Christian worship.
• 25:14
  Without long,
• 25:16
  long words or prose,
• 25:18
  you can sing about praise and God's gift to us.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Are there sections in the worship service that you would like to teach?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: How about the Lord's Prayer?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than speaking, can you sing about it?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where we are called to serve,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: to reach out to other people,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: to care for other people,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: those are areas that we can use songs.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I know pastors fear talking about budgets and finances.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look for a song to sing about that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: because sometimes a good medicine goes down when you like the tune.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: It actually works.
• 25:49
  So there are different functions that the worship leader and
• 25:52
  the worship team needs
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: to think about in choosing music.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: The key thing is, don't limit your search.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: The music landscape is very broad.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Be willing to explore.
• 26:05
  If we are going to be praying for a particular country outside
• 26:08
  of North America or
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: outside of the U.S.,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 26:13
  no harm looking around and see whether are there Christian
• 26:16
  songs that are connected
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: to that particular context.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are there resources,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 26:21
  specific ones that you know of where you can find these
• 26:25
  different types of music
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: for different purposes?
• 26:28
  that are sort of readily available,
• 26:29
  or do you really have to do a deep dive?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for me, the immediate stop is the Hymn Society of US and Canada.
• 26:36
  So if the music minister is interested to put all these
• 26:39
  different types of music
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: together,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: my recommendation first stop is the Hymn Society.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Next stop, GIA Publications.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think those are good sources to find songs.
• 26:51
  I also want to touch in that I think it's important for pastors
• 26:56
  and church
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: musicians to have a mind shift,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: too.
• 27:00
  It is easy to think of an order of worship as a list of
• 27:04
  sequential things on a page.
• 27:06
  And so we take out last week's song and we put in a new song at
• 27:10
  this slot.
• 27:12
  And I think it's hard to blend and utilize the entire range of
• 27:18
  types of music if you do that.
• 27:21
  I think it's more instructive to think about a Christian
• 27:25
  worship service as this
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: wonderful interaction between
• 27:32
  a congregation in God so that there's a rhythm of revelation
• 27:37
  and response to weave
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: these things together.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So do you believe in sort of a loose liturgy,
• 27:44
  but not to have that strict liturgical structure where you just
• 27:48
  fill in the blanks
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: with different songs every week?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the exercise I've been doing that is so much fun.
• 27:56
  In my basic intro to worship class,
• 27:58
  I make the students watch a Broadway musical
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: and write down every way that music is used in a musical.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then they bring those lists in.
• 28:09
  We synthesize them and come up with a comparable list of the
• 28:13
  possible range of ways
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: music can be used in Christian worship service.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because the essential thing is to tell a story.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: God was in Christ reconciling the world to God.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's the story.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Every Christian worship service needs to deal with that.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it's about.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so within that,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: we have different plot lines we can pull through that basic story.
• 28:40
  So what songs are we going to use to set the emotional tone for
• 28:46
  this week's plot line?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: What songs are we going to use for the character development,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: either of us or of the world or of God or Jesus?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: What songs are we going to use to move the plot along?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: I hope this is making sense.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is.
• 29:00
  And the specific plot for that Sunday is most likely based on
• 29:04
  the sermon series or
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: if it's Lent or Advent season.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's a more creative,
• 29:12
  imaginative way because even the most non-musical student can
• 29:17
  come in having
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: watched a musical and go,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: I saw about four different ways I saw music being used there.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that kind of opens them up
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: without having to rely upon any sort of musical training themselves,
• 29:32
  just to be able at least to talk to musicians and to be able to
• 29:38
  talk creatively and
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: collaboratively.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I will jump into what Lester is saying is that,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: it's not so much loosey-goosey,
• 29:47
  but that you still need a super-structure skeleton of your
• 29:52
  liturgy to be able to
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: frame this.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the pattern that we talked about,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: gathering,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: proclamation,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: response,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: standing pause,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: those are very loose,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: broad skeleton.
• 30:02
  Then whatever's inside there,
• 30:04
  it's up to you to decide how things will flesh out from there.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that every Sunday is something different.
• 30:10
  It also keeps people on their toes and keeps them probably more
• 30:14
  interactive.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Why people don't go to church?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because they are bored.
• 30:20
  So can you imagine if you have a worship service that have
• 30:22
  these kind of surprises
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: on them every week or every two weeks?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: They will come because they're curious what's next.
• 30:31
  It's incredible to me that a Christian worship service can be
• 30:34
  boring because
• 30:36
  ultimately we're going to talk about the death and resurrection
• 30:38
  of the Lord Jesus
• 30:39
  Christ and about God's radical shift of the trajectory of the
• 30:44
  entire cosmos.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: How in the world that can be made boring?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: But they do, Lester.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know I've been in those services,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: but...
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've also been in the services,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: where you don't want it to end.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Time stands still, right?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, those are the kind of services that we want.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: So then you unpack that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: How did that happen?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: What made this particular service so unique?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if we who are attending worship services don't just go in...
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: like a zombie.
• 31:18
  We need to go in and see for ourselves,
• 31:21
  how did this service hurt my heart?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: How did that happen?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you can break it down, then you can create it again.
• 31:31
  Sometimes I close my eyes when everyone is singing around me
• 31:34
  and like that really brings me in.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that goes back to the power of congregational singing.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can't get that on your screen at home from a live stream, can you?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, you cannot.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because Christian worship is not meant to be done by yourself.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Christian public worship has meant to be done by a community.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's the reality.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: The longest passage for the New Testament is Paul's discussion,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: starting about 1 Corinthians 11,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: 11,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: 12,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: 13,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: and 14 there.
• 32:08
  And the recurring strand through all of those chapters is how
• 32:13
  communal Christian
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: worship is supposed to be.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: This is not about me, myself, and I. This is about us, ourselves.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: and the God who's done something for all of us.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great note to end on.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've loved this conversation.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it's been very helpful to everyone who's listening.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's certainly been eye-opening for me.
• 32:41
  I'd like to end each episode by asking my guests to share a
• 32:45
  favorite Bible verse or
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: one that's relevant to today's topic.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have one in mind and why you chose it, I would love to hear it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go back to one I referenced earlier.
• 32:57
  I've just decided in the current tumultuous times that I was
• 33:03
  not only going to
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: memorize the Beatitudes,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: I was going to internalize them.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I've really been struck by the statements of Jesus,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: blessed are the meek,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: blessed are those who mourn,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: blessed are the peacemakers,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: blessed are the poor in spirit.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's not a single verse, but at least it's a single passage.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Recently, the Lord has moved me to focus on the verse Romans 8, 28.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: All things shall work out for the purpose of God.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: We may encounter bad stuff.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: We may encounter situations that challenges our stability.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: But rest secure in the presence of God.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: It shall work out.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: All things work for good.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: That is very encouraging.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for sure.
• 33:59
  If people want to read your books or find your work,
• 34:03
  where should they go?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Lester.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: If there's one place.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's more famous than I am.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's not true.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's not true.
• 34:13
  A hundred years from now,
• 34:14
  they'll be going,
• 34:14
  Lester Ruth,
• 34:16
  hey,
• 34:17
  I love his song.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of our published material,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Two easiest ways to do it is just to go to Amazon and type in our names,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: and our books immediately pop up.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or if you go to our respective institutions,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Duke University or University of Toronto,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Emanuel College,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: and type in our names,
• 34:37
  our faculty pages would come up there along with a list of our
• 34:40
  publications.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think my website at Duke now even has some podcast leads to them, so...
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: See, he's more famous than I am.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, I just perhaps have a better tech department.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Over on my end,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: if you're looking for my music,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: you will visit hopepublishing.com as well as giamusic.com.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the two main companies that are holding my music.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to add one last comment.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody goes on Amazon and I go,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Look at the price of that book.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to buy that book.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Go and find a used copy someplace.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:23
  You're not going to impoverish Sweet Hong and me by buying a
• 35:27
  copy where we get no
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: royalties whatsoever.
• 35:30
  Our main concern is that our work that we dedicated to the Lord
• 35:35
  gets in the hands
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: of people who find it useful.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Very humble and generous of you.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: See, the letter's very nice, right, Rebecca?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: I told you.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've been reading those Beatitudes.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's why.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've internalized them, as you said.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, pleasing the Lord seems like a good thing to do.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 36:00
  Well,
• 36:00
  thank you,
• 36:01
  Lester Ruth and Zui Hong Lim,
• 36:02
  for joining us today again.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love this conversation.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Really appreciate your time.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks to all of you, our amazing listeners, for tuning in.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Your support means a lot.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if you enjoyed today's conversation,
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: be sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts.
• 36:24
  Stay inspired,
• 36:25
  keep trusting in God's plan for your life,
• 36:28
  and we'll see you next time.