Latest / The Promote Podcast / Mormon Money & Cardone Waterfalls
Transcript
- Hiten Samtani (00:03) The objective, of course, is spiritual. We live, in a material, physical, temporal world. That's a quote from Ezra Taft Benson. He was a former secretary of agriculture under Ike Eisenhower. But more importantly for us, he's a former president of the Mormon Church. Will Krasne (00:21) The only president of the Mormon church that I recognize is Jen Shah and I think she's in prison. Hiten Samtani (00:31) Welcome back to the Promote Podcast, your insider guide to the money and mania of the CRE markets. I'm Hiten Samtani Dude, we're officially past the 25 episode mark. It feels good like we're a real podcast now. Will Krasne (00:36) and I'm Will Krasne. Yeah, I know, except for the fact that our YouTube presence is abominable, but we're gonna fix that. We're gonna get these handsome mugs on YouTube. Hiten Samtani (00:49) Thank you to our listeners for all the love. It's been a really fun journey so far. All the love and occasional stick about waltz. ⁓ Will Krasne (00:55) or real page And reach out to partnerships at thepromote.com for advertising if you want to reach our entire beautiful audience of nutjobs. Hiten Samtani (01:10) Today we're talking the Mormon real estate playbook, how they built a serious real estate portfolio and then also crucially ran it like serious people. OG syndicator Grant Cardone swooping in to rescue a distressed Boca rental and he's bringing Bitcoin to the table and institutional LPs feel some type of way about real estate private equities courtship of retail money. Well, I'm going to leave this one to you. Should we start with the sacred or the profane? All right, then it's going to be Grant Cardone. Will Krasne (01:36) All right. ⁓ Hiten Samtani (01:39) Okay, what is happening in Boca Raton? Will Krasne (01:41) question that a lot of people ask all the time. Hiten Samtani (01:44) the time in a variety of reasons. We should start with just kind of who Cardone is. OG syndicator. Before we had Rise, before we had Tides or GVA, any of the Sunbelt guys, we had Grant Cardone. Will Krasne (01:56) So I think you're selling the man short. Before we had Andy Elliott, before we had the manipulated time guy, we had Grant Cardone. You're thinking small, bro. You're thinking small. So Grant Cardone started off selling, he was a drug addict, he says, he was selling cars, and he basically manifested this entire real estate empire one sucker at a time. Hiten Samtani (02:19) a pretty good empire. According to Cardone Capital, nearly 20,000 investors, they've raised $1.7 billion. And it's an AUM of about $5 billion. Will Krasne (02:29) AUM is nebulous. He sells the equity at a markup to his investors. He used to have all the disclosures at the bottom of a page with dark blue font and slightly lighter blue lettering, a lot of real scummy stuff. That said, he buys good real estate, which again, the whole point of this is it's not hard to figure out what good real estate is. That's not investing. The investing is trying to figure out risk and reward. Anyway, I dig. Hiten Samtani (02:53) He's mastered, I mean, this is the whole thing, right? He's mastered the distribution channel to retail, which is like the most coveted thing in all of real estate. If you have a path to your wealthy lawyer, doctor, whatever, you can be really competitive in this space. We've got tons of aura. We got to give him that. He's very big, not only in the real estate world, but also in that broader world of entrepreneurship gurus. Will Krasne (03:07) Aura is the lowest cost of capital. First episode. Say what you want about him. He's got a lot of aura. Hiten Samtani (03:19) sales masters, etc. He runs the 10x conference, know, everyone from Donald Trump. Will Krasne (03:23) Lloyd Blankfein, should be ashamed of yourself for speaking at that conference. Hiten Samtani (03:27) It's kind of a grab bag of silver tongue devils, let's say. Will Krasne (03:30) It's not the Man-O-Sphere. It's like slightly adjacent to it. It's like the TRT sales guru steer. Hiten Samtani (03:38) Let's get into the deal a bit. There's a bankrupt Boca Raton rental property, about 366 units. And the sponsor was a very interesting cat by the name of Mark Gensheimer of Penn, Florida. Fairly prominent investor in those parts. And he's had quite a bit of trouble with other deals, not just the one we're going to talk about. Will Krasne (03:57) the golf club in Port St. Lucie. think there's a land parcel there that also faced foreclosure. Typical Florida bokeh nonsense. Hiten Samtani (04:05) one we're going to talk about is 101 via Meisner and he had $195 million of debt on it. Most of it was owned by Blackstone and Blackstone moved to foreclose. Will Krasne (04:16) Yeah, he had a maturity default. think the issue was that he was going to have to inject a lot of capital to pay off the loan, which he either couldn't or didn't want to do. And so what did Blackstone do here? Typical Blackstone savviness. They did a UCC foreclosure on the ownership interests of the owning entity. Hiten Samtani (04:22) There was a pay down clause which was pretty onerous. And what does a UCC foreclosure do? Basically, it lets you bypass the long sprawling court process, which can take you Will Krasne (04:42) years, right? Exactly. It's just like cut to the chase. There's a cat and mouse game here. you know, these guys like one of the things you can use if you throw something into bankruptcy, that then can create a whole host of issues which take a long time which Blackstone is like trying to avoid. Hiten Samtani (04:57) So Penn Florida does this, the entity goes into bankruptcy, and then you got our guy Cardone coming in. Will Krasne (05:03) stocking horse, Grant Cardone. Hiten Samtani (05:07) What is a stalker? Will Krasne (05:08) horse. If a bank or a lender is auctioning something, they want there to be action in the auction. So they are incentivized to have people show up. If you're a stocking horse, you can agree to set the floor of the pricing. And in exchange for that, you can get some protections, can get a, you sometimes you can get a breakup fee if it goes above it goes away from you. But basically, what you're doing is saying, Okay. And then with the hopes that it stirs more bids above that. Hiten Samtani (05:37) So there wasn't as much interest in this Boca Raton multifamily property as you might think. There was only one other really serious bidder and it's a huge player in South Florida, really like big institutional money, a real developer, Crescent Heights, which is run by Russell the Relentless. Will Krasne (05:53) They have a tremendous private jet. Hiten Samtani (05:56) Well, you're so lame. You're talking about jets doing condos and cruise ships now. Sorry. So Crescent Heights comes in, they offer a higher number. They wanted a longer due diligence period because the plan here was to do a condo conversion. As you know, those can be really messy, time consuming curve balls that can be thrown at you. Will Krasne (06:12) You got to do all the buyout. It's really a lot of legal headaches and just execution headaches. And so this is actually like boils down pretty simply. It's like price versus certainty. So this is something every seller deals with and it's do you want the higher number, but maybe there's some risks there or do you want Grant Cardone slapping it on the table with a $20 million deposit knowing that he's got the money machine behind him and it's going to close. Hiten Samtani (06:38) And that's precisely what happens. Crescent Heights later pulled their offer. We're not sure why. And Grant Cardone comes in and wins this thing with a $235 million bid. In the restructured entity, Grant Cardone owns about 92 % and Penn Florida stays in the deal. But obviously Grant's going to go out and do his thing after. Will Krasne (06:56) Grant Cardone owns 92 % of this thing till the end of this sentence, basically. Hiten Samtani (06:59) He's like already got the pitch machine moving. Pretty standard in what the Cardone playbook, right? Put up the cash to close or win the deal and then syndicate out and make your fees and make your money right there. Will Krasne (07:12) One quick thing about certainty versus certainty in price is that this was actually really common during the boom days of 2021 and 2022. People, if you're wondering how did syndicators win all these deals, because presumably, all the big institutions were in these bid sheets, they would throw down just massive amounts of money, like non-refundable day one and be like, here you go. And if you're a seller, that's very compelling. Hiten Samtani (07:37) they can kind of see the backend economics for them because of how they raise the money, all the fees that are built into their process. Will Krasne (07:43) If you look at acquisition fees, debt fees, management fees, asset management fees. Hiten Samtani (07:48) Success fees, 25 % success fees, pretty good. Will Krasne (07:50) disposition fees, like even before you get into the promote divided by the cash contributed by the sponsor into the deal, like a lot of these guys like had negative money in the deal basically from day one. And so you're like, ah, whatever. Like, okay, okay. We find out that, you know, it's built on Indian barrel of ground during diligence. Like we'll just close. It's fine. Sometimes that is better. Hiten Samtani (08:12) But here, we have an extra twist that kind of elevates the story to a great promote story. What happened here? Will Krasne (08:20) This is a JV, not just between Penn Florida and Grant Cardone. There's a third member in there, ⁓ Shytoshi Nakamoto. what? Hiten Samtani (08:29) Yes, because when this when this all shakes out and you have the newly reorganized entity, they disclose that they've got a nice asset in there besides the multifamily property. They've got a hundred million dollars worth of Bitcoin. What? What's going on? Cardone's investors are paying like an AUM fee on Bitcoin. What happens? Astonishing. Will Krasne (08:43) genuinely flabbergasted. I think that's right. So somehow Grant structuring this as like a call option. Yeah, somehow. Hiten Samtani (09:00) What happens here is that Penn Florida has a 12 month purchase option. If the condo conversion doesn't go through, they have a 12 month purchase option to buy the property back from Cardone outright for $300 million. So he's going to make money there already. But Cardone has a call option to purchase their entire interest in the JV's remaining assets, which means the Bitcoin for an amount equal to Penn Florida's cost basis, which means if Bitcoin appreciates in that time, Cardone gets all the upside. It's a pretty good structure for him. Will Krasne (09:32) Grant Cardone only does good structures for him. Hiten Samtani (09:34) I also want to shout out an amazing write up on this deal that prompted this story from Ed Bond, who's an NPL investor. I'll link to the write up in the show notes. It's a lot of fun and it's like amazing forensic dive. Will Krasne (09:46) Yes, well done. Well done, Ed. Hiten Samtani (09:47) Ed writes the following, I was and still am skeptical of including BTC in a real estate transaction. If I want BTC exposure, I can easily buy it. I don't need Cardone to buy BTC and charge me an AUM fee. It also adds volatility to an already risky real estate deal. But for Cardone, it's a great situation. Will Krasne (10:07) Who doesn't love free upside? Hiten Samtani (10:08) Talk me through what it looks like if you're like over the barrel as an investor in this property and you want to stay in the action somehow. How do you end up saying yes to structure like this? Will Krasne (10:19) there's two bidders and one of them's a real shop with real chops and is like, hey, it's going to take us a long time to figure out this condo deconversion. I know you're in like maturity default. So just hang out. And the other guy is like, here's a bunch of Bitcoin. Like you don't really have a choice. You know, they both bid well over the amount of the debt. And that was the face value. Who knows what it is? Plus accrued interest, plus legal fees, whatever. So, I mean, they basically get a hope note on this thing, you know. they're not putting in fresh equity and they still own 8 % of it. The choice was this, give the keys back or hope you can fancy feet long enough for Crest and Heist to do their DD and not finding any material issues in clothes. Hiten Samtani (11:02) big takeaway for me. you've built out a great distribution channel to retail like Grant absolutely has, then you have the ability to move really quickly in situations like this and structure things that are phenomenally good for Grant Cardone. Will Krasne (11:17) Totally, mean, because he's not selling a real estate deal. He's been selling Grant Cardone and he's got a lot of people who are like very excited about Grant Cardone. Hiten Samtani (11:25) I have expected like a 5 million kind of Bitcoin sweetener of some kind, but this is a hundred million dollars. Will Krasne (11:30) It's like what you can raise for, right? If you can raise it, you can do it. And I think right now, like very clearly, people can raise money for crypto stuff. Hiten Samtani (11:40) So Grant Cardone's really fond of saying, never reduce a target, instead, increase actions. think throwing Bitcoin into the mix here surely qualifies. Will Krasne (11:50) It actually worked out that Penn Florida stayed in the deal because had they just left, honestly, Grant Cardone was going to label them a suppressive person and the returns wouldn't have been there. ⁓ Hiten Samtani (12:09) This is kind of related, right, to what we've just been talking about, which is building a retail pipeline. All the big fund managers, your Blackstones, your Brookfields, your KKRs, your blah, blah, blah, they're all obsessed with this giant pool of retail money to be had. We've talked previously about the 401k pot of gold, $12 trillion that could be flowing some of it into private credit deals. And guess who's getting a little bit butthurt about all this action and the attention on retail? Will Krasne (12:36) Is it the investors? Hiten Samtani (12:37) Might be. Sovereign wealth funds, the pensions, the endowments, the insurance companies, kind of your traditional bankrollers of most CRE action have been feeling some kind of way about all this. They're saying, if you're going the retail route, are we going to get lower allocations? Are we going to lose kind of our clout in setting terms and such? Will Krasne (12:58) I mean, the answer is yes. If you're like, I want lower fees, I want you to make less money, I want more decision rights, and I also am going to make the sales process to get my money way harder. Like, what do you expect? If there's two shops, they each raise $100 million, they do 18 IRR, one nine Moik deal. The shop that raised 100 million from retail investors is going to be way richer than the shop that... Hiten Samtani (13:09) And you had said this earlier, Will Krasne (13:23) raise the money from institutional piece because you can get not only just like the acquisition fees, asset management fees, maybe higher promote, lower pref, whatever, but you can get like a catch up for instance, which is a thing in, you know, certain institutional funds, but less so if you're raising like straight JV equity, the catch up basically works out to if a deal does a two and a half X over 10 years, their promote ends up being about 40 % of what was initially raised, right? If you don't have a catch up. and do the same return, same prep, same everything, it ends up being something like, think like 12, 15 cents on every dollar. So it's a huge disparity. Hiten Samtani (14:00) so you ⁓ Will Krasne (14:03) Totally. And then also you can have like a longer tail on a retail deal, which means you can like play the long game and like play for whole dollars. Hiten Samtani (14:11) to clarify the majority of these institutional LP deals are closed end funds is that right? Will Krasne (14:16) It depends, right? So institutional LPs will allocate dollars into a fund, a closed end vehicle, which is seven, 10 years with two or three one year extensions. But I'm also talking about an SMA account, which is just a separately managed account where they will invest directly with one LP and all that generally happens. A little buy box and a set of terms to go do certain strategies. And on those, like you're just not getting a catch up. You're not going to get great fees. Again, ask me how I know. it's so all else equal. retail makes more sense to make more money. The trick shot is that institutions had the ability to write a single check, which again, like going back to Greg Gardeau and like, why would these people take the deals? Because they offer certainty. You know you can close. You don't have to run around and like raise a million checks. Hiten Samtani (15:01) when the mass when the pool of capital at play is so massive, you can take a few more shots because there's so much money to play with all these big fund managers have been setting the stage for this right they knew that the 401k thing might be coming. They obviously lobbied pretty hard for it. And they've been setting up these relationships with the vanguards Will Krasne (15:19) world. They've been working on the distribution and also too. Yeah, you're dealing with one group if you're trying to raise institutional money, but it's going to be how many meetings, how many months. They want to see so much from you. You have to put together so many materials. It again adds to the cost that you need to have so much full-time IR staff. You have to do things on the back end that don't add value necessarily to your investments to justify these people coming on your platform. Hiten Samtani (15:46) of the things they're concerned about that the institutional LPs are concerned about the loss of co-invest, can you talk a little bit about what that looks like or what that means? Will Krasne (15:53) Co-invest is something that sponsors liked because it allowed them to raise more money and upsize and LPs liked because they could negotiate lower fees on those co-invest dollars. They're generally fees, but they're much lower. Again, depends on the deal, depends on the sponsor, depends on how much leverage they've got, but they will be significantly cheaper than investing directly into the fund. And so it's a way to blend your costs down and allocate more dollars at the same time. Hiten Samtani (16:17) let's say you're gonna put 500 million into Courtland Multifamily Bonanza Fund One, and then you're gonna invest another 75 million as a co-invest. Will Krasne (16:26) Right, or you have the ability on certain deals to upsize your co-invest. Because the way this works is if you have a $2 billion fund, you're like, wow, that's a huge fund. I can buy $6, $7 billion with the real estate. But let's say you want to buy a $3 billion portfolio of industrial. Hiten Samtani (16:44) You can't write that check from the fund, yeah. Yeah. Will Krasne (16:47) You can't write a 50 % of the fund check. So maybe you do a $300 million slug out of the fund, you do $700 million of co-invest. And so you can go raise that from the same LPs. You've already got docs for the most part, and then it's just really negotiated with you. So it's a seamless transaction basically for both groups. Hiten Samtani (17:05) There's an interesting point in the Bloomberg article. don't know if this quite applies to real estate specifically, but it said the hurdle rate for institutional LPs is typically around 8%. But for retail evergreen funds, more and more of these things are going that route. It could be as low as 5%. Will Krasne (17:21) can't necessarily speak to that firsthand, but it makes sense because if you have an evergreen fund, how do you get liquidity? So, and if you're gonna be in it for a longer time, the IRR math works against you every day. Hiten Samtani (17:30) context here is that it's been harder and harder for fund managers to raise from institutional LPs. So, Prequin had some data on private equity firms raised just under $600 billion globally for the 12 months ending June. That's the lowest haul in seven years. that pool of capital is shrinking and they're fussy and demanding anyway. Why not go to these retail investors who've got a lot of money to throw at you and are obviously not grouped together in the way that they can have the same leverage? Will Krasne (17:58) been coming for a long time. And also too, as all of these custodians have so much capital, it's not as if you have to go be Grant Cardone and build this channel yourself. You can just layer into this one API, tap the vein, and it comes rushing out. Hiten Samtani (18:12) We had talked about how if you're RIA or a wealth manager, you're probably going to have a really good time in real estate for the next few years. Will Krasne (18:19) you are gonna get a lot of steak dinners. You will not have an iron deficiency. Hiten Samtani (18:24) Another point that the institutional LP sounded the alarm on is if these fund managers have all this money kind of burning a hole in their pocket, they might go chase deals that they have no business chasing. Will Krasne (18:34) What? Never. These guys are fiduciaries. I'm shocked. Shocking. Gambling is going on in here. Religious institutions have always been major players in real estate. Trinity famously was gifted 215 acres by Queen Anne in the 1700s. They own a huge chunk of Hudson Square. But I think most of the religious folks are not as good at the real estate game themselves potentially. Hiten Samtani (19:02) They've been endowed with the land, but not so much endowed with the skills. Will Krasne (19:06) They have higher pursuits at that. Hiten Samtani (19:08) That's true, except there is one shining exception to this rule. ⁓ Will Krasne (19:16) Mormon Church. Hiten Samtani (19:17) They run that shit tight. They have an incredible property portfolio. It's probably a lot bigger than this, but this is I think as of 2020 or so, 1.7 million acres, $16 billion worth of real estate. I think it's a lot more. This is just what people have been able to find so far. And they're amazing. They buy in A plus locations. Will Krasne (19:21) What do they have? Obviously the church has bought lots of farmland, spent like $300 million buying 45 or 46 farms across like eight states. But they're buying now also discrete assets. So they bought this big rental building. They bought another one recently. They bought a really large, like well over a million square foot industrial building in Hialeah in Florida too, in Q4 I think of last year. And what's crazy is that they're doing all these deals in Florida according to the Salt Lake Tribune. They own over 2 % of Florida's a landmass. Hiten Samtani (20:09) Wow, what are they, Black Rock? Will Krasne (20:11) ⁓ Yeah, right. mean like that's a staggering number like Florida's a pretty big place Hiten Samtani (20:16) That's an astonishing, yeah, it's pretty damn big. Will Krasne (20:19) Yeah, they've got a huge ranch in central Florida as well. They have a forest property in the panhandle. didn't know there were forests there, but apparently. Stefan Soloviev, John Malone, and a couple others. I mean, they're one of the largest landowners, again, which makes sense if you have a super, super long-term trajectory. But now they're buying multifamily too. They paid 400 a unit for a massive deal in Boca. Also in Boca. Hiten Samtani (20:28) competing with Stefan Soloviev? Will Krasne (20:48) the 384 unit Del Ola apartment complex from Clarion and Cortland for 152 million bucks. Again, that's all equity. Hiten Samtani (20:57) They don't use any leverage and how have they created this perpetual capital vehicle is a pretty good story Tithing what is tithing will? Will Krasne (21:03) Hiving. certainly don't do it, but it's you donate 10 % of your income to the church. Hiten Samtani (21:12) for good works and such. Tithing has created this absolute behemoth and it's called Insign Peak. Insign Peak is the endowment for the Latter-day Saints Church and I think it was insanely well run. It was 40 billion dollars worth of AUM in 2012 and by 2019 that number had jumped to a hundred billion dollars. Will Krasne (21:34) Also consider there are some very wealthy morphings. That's a lot of tithing. Yeah. It's just so much money coming in as well. Like that's the part that's staggering. They have to put all this money to work, but there's no pressure because you don't have to worry about liquidity. They're not worrying about, well, gosh, my growth PE allocation hasn't returned capital. Hiten Samtani (21:55) spoke to like a former Mormon guy and who knows who's connected to all the property reserve people, they truly believe that they're building for the second coming. So their entire real estate strategy is informed by that very, very long term approach mindset. Will Krasne (22:10) Honestly, it's a really good approach for real estate. Hiten Samtani (22:12) And they're good, dude. They have everything down to a science. So their floor plans are really templated. If you look at the Mormon buildings, they're all like, they're all set up really nicely. The Mormon real estate unit is called a property reserve and it's run by a guy called Ashley Powell. What do we know of Ashley? Will Krasne (22:28) actually is a real guy. He's a yeah. So he was at Deutsche Bank, ⁓ Bentle Green Oak. Hiten Samtani (22:33) You know what I love about him? went on his LinkedIn today. His LinkedIn says nothing about those. It's all about the church. There's no mention of those two, like, pedigreed positions. Will Krasne (22:42) I mean, this guy went to BYU and then came back to be director of acquisitions in 2017. Hiten Samtani (22:47) Do you see what he studied? It's almost like he was setting himself up for this from very beginning. What kind of degree is construction management? Will Krasne (22:52) Construction management. It's a very useful one for real estate to be quite honest. this guy's a you know, he's a developer I mean, he's again you own all this land like in their building stuff for the long term like you don't want just you know a spreadsheet monkey Yeah, who can you know juice an IRR or what have you you're really building stuff over like long-term like we talked about master plans We talked about starwood buying one that took you know, like oh, it's gonna take ten years It's gonna take a hundred years. How long is it gonna take to build on a million acres of farmland? Hiten Samtani (23:22) little bit of divine patience, I guess. Will Krasne (23:24) Yeah, and I mean, they've got a 200 person team. Wow. At Property Reserve. I mean, that's like pretty serious. Hiten Samtani (23:31) You know what's interesting? It's like people aren't they aren't blowing smoke. Like I've talked to ex-Mormons and current Mormons about this. To a man, they've all said, like, these guys know what they're doing when they're building. You ever done deals with the Mormons? Well. Will Krasne (23:43) I've not done deals with the Mormons. I've done deals with other religious institutions who did not know what they were doing, much to my benefit. There's a whole sect of Mormon investing and Mormon returns both in private equity and business that have been very, very successful. One of the reasons why Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is such a phenomenon is because everyone is incredibly wealthy on there, except for the aforementioned Jen Cha who was in jail. Hiten Samtani (24:07) If you don't want the same standards, away. Will Krasne (24:11) It's this whole ethic. We talked about it previously with the Patels and the hotel industry. It's just not just money making, but just like, as you said, hard work, success, craftsmanship, doing things by hand, doing it the hard way. Hiten Samtani (24:24) think sales is kind of woven into the DNA, right? Because you start as a missionary, you go to these foreign lands and you're preaching the good book and you understand what rejection means, you understand how to close. Coffee's for ****. You think I'm ****ing with you. Right? And then it translates. These are the kind of groups that there's so much going on behind the scenes, beneath the surface, what have you. I think we only found out how big Inside Peak was because of a whistleblower who went to one of the big papers in Utah. Will Krasne (24:36) close the zone. Hiten Samtani (24:53) My God, they're probably got some, I don't know if they JV with anyone, if they're quiet backers of anyone, there's probably a lot. Will Krasne (24:58) I think so and but having the size and the scale they do they have a very real guy as a CEO They have 200 investment professionals or who knows how they're split between back office for an office Hiten Samtani (25:09) Back office, front office, all roads lead to God. Will Krasne (25:14) What's interesting too is just again looking at property reserves like the mission statement, know, everyone, we've all read a thousand of these. It's like, we work for our investors. We strive to achieve, you know, risk adjusted returns, you know, based on our economic analysis. Hiten Samtani (25:30) Some people go really far and they say stuff like the Roman Empire and so I read you a couple of those too. are... Will Krasne (25:37) This is what property reserves mission statement is. caretakers of sacred funds, we invest in responsible, reliable, and revenue-generating properties to support the church's mission. With a focus on creating sustainable cash flow, we grow the real estate investment reserves of the church to the acquisition, build to hold development and management of domestic international properties. And they mean every word. Hiten Samtani (25:57) And they really mean it. Will Krasne (26:04) I don't think I can see the Mormons and the Scientologists getting together and letting Greg Cardone add in Bitcoin to these real estate deals. You're thinking small, bro. You're thinking small. Hiten Samtani (26:19) That's it for the Vermote Podcast this week. We'll be back next week with more CRE insider goodness. Will Krasne (26:23) Write us a review on Apple or Spotify. Tell people about us, the zeal of an LDS church elder. Hiten Samtani (26:29) Absolutely preach this podcast to everyone in your life and we'll see you back here next week. Ciao.