Latest / Goodlife Church Formation Podcast / Romans 8 - adopted to sonship, theology of suffering, praying from a place of unity with God
Transcript
- Jack: ⁓ well, welcome back, another episode of the Good Life Formation Podcast. Hello, Pastor Dave, what are you drinking today? DC: I am drinking long blacks, Jack. Get it in you. Jack: Okay, good. I you you should see my desk here. I have an assortment of Espresso. And ⁓ what's wrong with Espresso? Bex: Good grief. No, keep going. It wasn't the espresso, it was the assortment. Jack: Well and ⁓ what Well this is the this is sodly. This ⁓ got prebiotics, good for my gut. ⁓ has some some whey protein straight from the cows, Australian cows becks, if you're wondering. And ⁓ lemonade ice block V is a game changer. Seriously. Zero sugar, ten calories, ⁓ Bex: The amount of chemicals you put in your body. Jack: Look, chemicals. What's wrong with chemicals? Oxygen's a chemical. Bex: You wanna know what I'm drinking? Water. Water. DC: Ha ha ha. Jack: Yeah, yeah, water. It's it's like bougie water, isn't it? Spicy water, yeah. DC: Spice it's spicy water, Jack. Bex: It's water out of my, out of my tap. Jack: You're right. Yeah, treated, no doubt. Okay. ⁓ good. Where in the world are you, Bex? In back in the loft, New York loft? DC: Yeah, but which we need to say. Bex: Back in my New York loft, I live in New York now. Jack: That's ⁓ okay, good. What's what's news around the traps? ⁓ what are you putting on the census, Bex? Hot topic for this week. What are you putting on the census? Bex: Well, by the time people will listen to this, probably will have been all over, but I'm putting International Network of Churches. Jack, what are you putting? Jack: I dunno, there's a bit of conjecture online. What if they don't count us properly? Bex: There's no conjecture in our movement. There might be conjecture outside of our movement, but not within INC. DC: One thing you can guarantee, Jack, is that the Secretary of INC has done the research. You you do not you do not have to worry any longer. Just do what he says. Bex: I'll rephrase it. My assistant has done the research for me. Jack: Right, right. ⁓ yeah, your your inanimate assistants, ⁓ I would imagine. ⁓ your real assistant. Okay. Sh multiple, right, okay. ⁓ Dave, where are you on the conspiracies around the the census and the ABS? Will they actually count us all properly, Dave? Bex: No, no, no, my actual living, breathing, human, wonderful. DC: ⁓ one has a breath in this movie. Bex: So good. Good grief. Here's the thing, Jack, COVID broke some people. Now I'm the first to say that some of the things that I said were not conspiracies actually were, right? A lot of them were so valid and I'm like, I have a whole lot more suspicious now than I once was, but it doesn't mean that everything is a conspiracy. DC: I couldn't be bothered buying into it, Jack, is the short answer. Yeah, we did. Jack: Okay. Right. 'Cause there's there's a number, right? We've talked about this before. It's like you can believe in a few but not all. If you believe in all, you're a cooker. None, you're just a ⁓ you're a sheeple, yeah, naive. DC: Mm. Yeah. Bex: Naive. DC: Yeah, Jack, ⁓ Jack, you've got to realise that ⁓ Rebecca is a lower number than us. I still think she's in the uncrazy bracket, but you and I are ⁓ you're we you and I are above the number. Jack: You know what I'm you know what I'm discovering? I was talking to a few good lifers who are new to this podcast. By the way, if you're a regular listener, ⁓ please do share this around. yeah, yeah. Yeah, give us questions. I'll check the I'll check the Spotify comments. ⁓ but I reckon we have you do not have to be a conspiracist to be a good lifer. But I b I believe that we have a strong silent majority of skeptics. Would you agree, Dave? You you do not have to break past oral confidentiality, but would you agree? Bex: You guys are definitely in the crazy. you Yes, welcome by all means. DC: I say like questions. Give us questions. Bex: Ha ha ha! Look, skeptic is good. DC: Yes. Jack: Yeah. Bex: I'm okay with skeptics. think we should, what do they say? Trust but verify, right? Exactly. Jack: Trust and verify, yes. Good. DC: Just look, Jack, that but probably people need to know. I get to all of the like I'm across lots of them, but then I go, Is is it is is my life gonna change like my life changes if I get so involved and so focused? Like it means I get completely distracted off the cause of Christ. And so there's a whole bunch of them, probably, but what me getting focused, does that change anything? What changes the world is getting busy on the cause of Christ. ⁓ so Bex: Okay. Jack: Mm. Bex: You DC: That's how I'm gonna change the world. We're transforming the world with the truth and the power of Jesus Christ, not with Facebook posts about flat earth and stuff. Jack: Well didn't doesn't Paul say somewhere, you guys are the biblical you're paid to know the Bible, ⁓ like I consider these matters of first importance. Right. Like th there's an order of priority to things that matter and conspiracies ⁓ a far way down the list, right? Where is that reference, Bex? Bex: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about this before, where talks about where the early church fathers talked about primary issues and secondary issues, right? We've talked about this a lot before. And so if you want to, go back and listen to previous episodes. But there's things that are really important and things that are not. If you want the reference, I'll go there. It's in... Second Timothy, think, or First Timothy where he talks about don't get involved in useless arguments, right? And I think that's the thing. Yeah, and the irony is the other thing he says in there is, hang on, let me make sure I've got the right one. He's talking, because he does it in both actually, but he actually talks about not fighting useless arguments, but then he also talks about, hey, but contend for the faith. Jack: Yes. Yes. Second second Timothy, that's his like final charge, but Bex: So argue about the things that actually matter and don't argue about the things that don't matter. DC: Exactly. That is the key thing is to make sure you are actually contending in the right way. It's not just the right topics, but doing it in the right way also, Jack. So getting involved in other things outside of that. If it's a if it's if it's for a little bit of fun, that's okay. But then you gotta make sure you're not wasting energy and time on things that really don't matter and you can't change the game. We can change the world with the truth and the power of Jesus Christ. So Bex: Yeah. Yeah, love it. DC: I'm saying let's get busy there. Jack: Okay, good. Well, ⁓ we're gonna unpack Romans. We we went through Romans eight yesterday or Sunday the ninth. Before we do a couple of things on the docket, ⁓ this Saturday. Pastor Dave, what's going on? Bex: it. DC: ⁓ men's ⁓ men's bonfire. so it's on ⁓ Saturday, is it the fifteenth? That's the date. ⁓ so if anyone's coming, if it's before the fifteenth, ⁓ send an email to office at good life church or send me a DM somehow and say what's the details. It's ten bucks, but we're just not sending out the address ⁓ of just for just for the world to know. ⁓ so it's for people that want to be a part of it. And so we're talking to the men. Bex: Yeah. Okay. DC: getting together on key men's topics. We're inviting all of men to be a part of it. How do we stand firm with Christ and together? ⁓ so it's got to be, you gotta be 13 up, high school and up to be a part of that one. Bex: What field? Jack: Great. ⁓ what else is what else is happening around the traps, Dave? There was something else I had to cover. I lost my notes. Yeah. Yeah. DC: It was the birthday. Yeah, the birthday weekend back. Now birthday weekend Good Life's been around for forty three years. ⁓ the first twenty five of those were connetless and the last eighteen have been well connet filled. ⁓ so it's been our honor to serve God and we actually don't know when the church birthday is, so we kind of coincided when we got here and so we kind of do that all in one big hit. And so it'll be some birthday celebrations on Sunday morning. Jace Ward is preaching the next instalment of this chapter Romans. Yeah. Look, I was like I went through his message last week, babe. I'm just chatting through with Jace, and I'm like, this is going to be absolutely epic. I love the way that he's packaged this. Bex: Woohoo! He's a gun preacher, don't miss that. Can you please not call Jack babe? Makes me uncomfortable. Jack: Yeah, what what have you got to say to Bex? DC: ⁓ so but then Sunday night is ⁓ we we c the party continues and we're doing Good Life's Got Talent. So it's the ⁓ the return of Good Life's Got Talent, which I'm looking forward to for the birthday celebrations on Sunday night. Jack: Mm. There you go. Well, for all the Gen Z wondering where we got Good Life's Got Talent from, ⁓ you can go to the YouTube, just search Australia's Got Talent. It was a T V show back when it was black and white. And ⁓ and that's how we got the inspiration for that little ⁓ that little Sunday. Is that all right, Dave? Bex: So good. . DC: I just th the the need to explain things un the unnecessary. It's ⁓ Bex: Yeah. Jack: Depends who you talk to. But nevertheless, ⁓ Romans eight. What did you think, Bex? Give us a score and ⁓ and all the all the all the kids in the front rows look blankly when we introduce the sermon series that are based on 90 T V shows. Bex: Thank you. DC: You're a you're a cooker on that one, Jack. You are a cooker on that one. Bex: No they don't. Trust me, as a parent of one of those, they sit on YouTube watching shorts and they see shorts of that. DC: they can do it. Jack: Okay, I'll take your word for it. ⁓ Okay. ⁓ Bex, give Dave a score on his sermon, ⁓ specifically. Out of out of ⁓ out of ten, can't you seven and justify your answer, please? Bex: Well, I reckon, I'll be for sure, I'm just saying. . At 11, he knocked you out of the park. Loved it. Jack: That doesn't that doesn't no, you need to jump justify it. That that's ⁓ Bex: I'm just, I am gonna, I'm gonna note that my husband did not give me an 11 the week before, but anyway. DC: Right if you Jack: I think yeah, like h I think you said hi hi aights. Bex: I think. DC: That's solid. Lily Cols would be happy with eight and a half. Bex: great. Do you know, can I just say one thing before we dive in? ⁓ This is the Bible I have right now. It's like a journaling Bible, so I've got margins down the side to write in, which I do. this time, sorry, I actually have in here, the day that Charlie Kirk was killed, I was reading Romans 8, because I wrote it in my Bible. okay. Jack: There you go. Eleven months to the day, actually. Eleven months to the day. Bex: 11 months, yes. And I think it's interesting because actually I underlined, it says verse 18, for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. And it just struck me that day that he was killed, that he is now in that glory, experiencing that glory. There you go. A little thought, a note. Jack: Wild. There you go. ⁓ Dave, there there's a theory going around about yesterday that you need to be aware of. You will not be aware of this. Well, ⁓ no, I did not start this theory. I ⁓ who would I tr I probably would attribute it to Christina, closely followed by Ben Perry, Blake Windred, and Sam Lovegrove. ⁓ but probably Christina in So Bex, you'll you'll understand this. ⁓ Bex: Did you start this theory? Okay. DC: Well that's the likely punch right there. Jack: Dave has been known to do a sermon on a whiteboard from time to time. Yes. ⁓ why does he do sermons on whiteboards? Bex: He has. because he's a visual learner and he thinks. ⁓ As I said, people can comment on his handwriting. ⁓ Jack: Yeah, but but why? But why? Because he's got a w w what's on the what's on the back the back of his tricep? And so he has to turn around so that we can see his tat. And so yesterday there was a whiteboard that happened to coincide with the new t shirt that people needed to see the back side of this like the the the reverse side of this t shirt. And so the theory is that there was a whiteboard there, Dave, just so you could spend half the sermon turning around. Is there any tr is there any truth to this at all? Bex: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay, so here's, before you comment Dave Connott, I wanna say two things. One, what was on the back of his t-shirt, I wanna get tattooed on me, speaking of tattoos. Number two, I think that the tattoo is actually very timely for the chapter because the chapter is talking about We've received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry, Abba Father. Dave, would you like to share with the world what your tattoo says? Or is? DC: ⁓ my tacit the the the word that I've got there is the Greek word huios, which is for son, which was a big journey for me, understanding the father's love, ⁓ based upon let's let's call it a complex relationship with my earthly father. And ⁓ so ⁓ the the the journey of understanding the father and his love for me, and how the father loves and treats and accepts. ⁓ and includes ⁓ his sons. And so the the Greek word huios was what I was going for the tattoo all the time, but I was like, it's just such a random word. So I ended up with a with a lighthouse on on top of the rocks. So so the rocks are where the words huios is, and then the lighthouse is sitting upon those rocks. And so there's a lot of meaning towards that. But yes, the Abba Father situation was something that was quite the journey ⁓ for me. ⁓ Bex: . DC: to understand and to realize how what God thinks of me. ⁓ basically I'm his favorite. And so I think everyone should realize that you're his favorite as well. ⁓ but yes, the the the t shirt I had was ⁓ was was four of at five crosses altogether. ⁓ there's a lot of historical context to that, but that that would go back. Yeah, defenders of the faith, defenders of the faith. And so Bex: Hold the Jerusalem cross. Yeah, love it. DC: ⁓ words around it said ⁓ make no peace with evil. ⁓ I and so I I think the world, I think the Christian world needs to actually understand that there are things that are evil you just can't condone, you just can't play with, you just can't give ⁓ any room for. And that's actually a big part of the journey of Romans eight is give no room for the old mindset. You actually have to kill it, you have to die to that, I have to identify your Bex: Okay. Okay. DC: bent and mindset towards evil, towards sin, to whatever that may be, and say, ⁓ give it no room. I'm actually gonna, Romans six talks about baptism. I'm gonna that is that whole thought of death to the old and death to self so that I can rise up in newness of life. And so you want death to the flesh nature mindset and you want life in the spirit mindset. And so yes, ⁓ it is a fresh t-shirt. ⁓ the tattoo is not fresh. Bex: Yes. Yes. DC: ⁓ but no, there that these these were not intended to be ⁓ as such with a whiteboard jack. But I do appreciate that you are noticing the the ⁓ minuscule details. Jack: Well, yes, the people are like, why don't we use a like why doesn't Dave draw on an iPad? We could maybe read his writings. Like, yeah, but he wouldn't have to turn around if he used an iPad, would he? So there we go. ⁓ maybe it's just a a boomer. Or Exennial. Is that what you call yourself, Dave? Is that what you identify as? Okay. Okay. Okay. ⁓ yes. ⁓ it actually came up, ⁓ we were talking about Romans eight after church yesterday, Dave, and that the exactly that notion of like DC: I could not Jack: ⁓ we we want to b flee from sin, right? It's that it's like abhorring sin, abhorring evil. It's it we don't want to go too close to the line where we kinda we don't like it, but we tolerate it, we wanna flee from it because we've been like made alive in Christ and and dead to that flesh nature, right? but when you when you think about the sermon or the service yesterday, what what didn't make it in? DC: Well, look, ⁓ I I actually cut some things out on Sunday night to make it flow a wee bit better. I felt like I was trying to make sure I got in every last little point of Romans eight. Therefore I don't think I did the f flow and the overall ⁓ the overall vibe. I don't know, the theme of Romans eight justice. So I had to pull out a little bit of detail, but it meant that all of those details I couldn't really delve Bex: you . DC: well into. If you if you really want a good discussion, then you'll be in Romans 8, 29 and 30. You'll you'll jump on predestination. ⁓ but the predestination verses are in context. 18 to 30 is the whole thought of the purpose in the sufferings. And so in suffering, and I we went into a bit of detail in regards to the Roman situation. It was just before Nero burnt down Bex: you DC: Yeah, Rome and then blame the ⁓ blame the Christians and then they were heading towards the Colosseum to be eaten by lions. But that whole thought of ⁓ the purpose of difficulty, the burp the purpose of pain, God's not the helicopter that comes in to take you out. It would be nice to jump in that. Now the predestination verses are in context of that. God knows it's a whole thought of God foreknew you. He knew he knows the whole story. The predestination verses in Romans eight are all about God foreknew. Bex: . DC: He's gonna glorify, he'll justify, he is in control, he is Lord, and nothing is outside of his knowledge would be right there. ⁓ the thought in regards to the body is the body itself, not the flesh nature, the flesh nature, the flesh mindset, but the body itself is subject to death. But if the spirit when it ver gets into verse 11, the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the death, he that raised Christ will quicken your mortal bodies, the King James Version talks about. Bex: Yeah. Yeah. DC: the ability for God to actually breathe life into a Christian's ⁓ life, body, soul, and spirit would be also one of the things that I would have really loved to go into. Yeah. That that that'd be the key things that I would have loved to, but I just, yeah, I mean not enough time to do it justice when the whole focus is the mindset. It's the mindset, the mindset, the mindset, even when you're going through tough times. Bex: ⁓ I mean, you could spend weeks in this one chapter. There's so much in this chapter. Jack: What else would you would well, let's press on that then, Bex. If you were charged now on a Monday, you've got six days to preach Romans eight again next week. Where do you what what comes to mind? I'm not I won't hold you to it, but just give me a blink. Bex: Ugh. One of the things that comes to mind is one of the quotes, know, Dave just made that statement that nothing happens outside the knowledge of God. And a lot of people will struggle. They'll go, well, why do bad things happen? Why do, you know, even just big things like earthquakes and natural disasters and why did that happen? you know, how can God let that happen? And I think it's actually really helpful this chapter on that because it says, Verse 18, I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And then it talks about, then it transitions across to us. We've also been groaning inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies. But what it's talking about is that when Adam and Eve sinned, it didn't just affect humanity. Adam and Eve were actually given dominion over the planet, right? We were given dominion ⁓ to, yeah, dominion across this planet. And so when sin entered humanity, sin also entered the world. And so we have a broken world, like actually physically broken world. And so things happen in this world, natural disasters or famines or droughts and all those things, that's not how God created the world to operate. But when sin entered Adam and Eve, because Adam and Eve had dominion and had authority over the world, we actually, Adam and Eve, handed that authority over to the enemy. And that's why we have a broken planet. And I think, for me, that helps sort of make sense of why those kinds of things happen. It's not that God is up there being mean, it's that we actually live in a broken world, a fallen world. And it's groaning, waiting for redemption, waiting for Jesus to return. that's when we receive our glorified bodies. Then we also, the Bible talks about the new heavens and the new earth. The earth itself will receive its glorified incorruptible body, which I think is really, for me, it helps us wrestle with those things, you know. DC: I did ⁓ in the evening service and neither of you guys are at the evening service and I forgive you for this, but ⁓ the the way that I will look to package a message, it needs to be the same message, essentially. I'm not gonna do two different messages on that day. I believe that God's got a word for the church, but yet I understand there's a different demographic, there's a ve there's a there's a very young, much a younger crowd. on a on a Sunday night. So I actually really delved into this topic of why do bad things happen to good people, why do bad things happen? And their opportunity to walk this through as as Christians. And so didn't didn't double click on that for the AM, but certainly for the PM, delved into that. Bex: Can I do one more, Jack? One more thing that I would ⁓ add, just Dave didn't mention it, but didn't delve in because of time is where it talks in verse 26 about how the spirit helps us in our weakness. Jack: Mm. Of course. Bex: do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." And Dave beautifully talked about how we groan before God and our heavenly prayer language and stuff. But I wanted to double tap or drill down or whatever the wording is on that where it says, Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And then it says, he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit. because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And so it's actually talking about how the Holy Spirit, who is God himself, is praying to God the Father in accordance with the will of the Father for us. And then if you go down to verse 34, it then talks about Jesus, died, was raised, is at the right hand of God, and then says who indeed is interceding for us. So now it's talking about how Jesus, who is also God himself, is also interceding, praying, advocating for us, speaking up for us to the Father. And I think what a beautiful, and then it goes on to, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? And I think what a beautiful picture of the love of God, that the Son and the Spirit are both interceding, advocating, bringing our concerns up before the Father according to the will of the Father for our lives. And that is such a beautiful picture of the love of God, right? It just encourages me so much. Jack: Why why do you think we skip by that or or forget that or like how how is that practical in everyday life, Bex? Bex: Dave's always better at answering this because Dave thinks much more practically than I do. For me, a revelation like that, even without knowing what the practical application is, will change my life because it just shifts my perspective. And when I have that... Jack: Is that like in the sense that you're reminding yourself that the the Son and the Spirit are interceding on on your behalf? Or like does that change your view of God? Bex: What you up No, well it does. First time you have that revelation, yes, absolutely, can completely revolutionise your view of God. But for me, ⁓ it brings perspective. It reminds me I'm not alone. And my prayers aren't rising to God on their own. You know, they're partnering with the prayers. Prayers is a weird word to use for God praying to himself, but that advocating that the Son and the Spirit are doing Jack: Mm. Bex: for me on behalf of me for the purposes of God for my life. And I just feel I'm not alone. I'm not alone, right? That's life changing. And Dave will talk about how to apply it so much better, but for me it just shifts my perspective and a perspective shift is life changing for me. DC: For for me the journey would be and that is a there's not a whole lot to apply out of that, but there's a there's a there's a perspective shift that then means when I'm getting ⁓ when I'm getting a a a barrage of temptation of rejection. Now sanguine's fantastic for that one. I'm like I'm not alone. I'm here with the purpose of God. No matter what people say or think about me, I know what my father I know what it they're there for me. The Holy Spirit is for me. and so it's a perspective shift that helps me in the middle of the battle, I think. That would be the key thing for me. ⁓ I I've I've found the need to be vigilant if there's a if if Romans eight talks about if you set your mind on the things of the spirit, you will fulfill the things of the spirit. If you set your mind on the things of the flesh, you will fulfill the things of the flesh. And so it's my mindset is really important. And so I can actually. Bex: Mm. DC: Assess my mindset, I can I can re-jig, I can reframe my mindset. I can have a new mindset in Christ Jesus. And that is a decision that I get to make. Now, big part of that is submission to God and to his plan. But one of the things is to actually be sober and be vigilant because your adversary, the devil, roams around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. So the being clear minded and alert, sober and vigilant is really, really necessary. So if I know Bex: . DC: That all of that is for me. God is for me. That if my God is for me, Romans 8, then who can be against me? ⁓ that is really where we're at. All of the Godhead is on my side. And so I can go through hell, I can go through terrible situations, I can go through all kinds of opposition, and my God is for me. And my mindset is shifted by the fact that that is the underlying thing. No matter what the enemy says, no matter the discouragements that come from other people, my God is for me. And Bex: Yeah. Good. DC: All of the Godhead backs me. Jack: Mm. Yeah, that makes sense. I love that. Okay, on that though, Dave, so many times through particularly Romans eight, it opens, it closes with, you know, if if God is for us, who can be against us? And nothing can separate us and Bex: Mm. Jack: But that doesn't always look like it in every day, if I'm thinking about the family who's battling sickness or there's financial challenges, or like it's like, yeah, it doesn't look like God's for me. What and of course we know that the ⁓ you know the most one of the most misquoted ⁓ verses, you know, we know that all things God works together for good. And it kind of stops there. So how do you how do you reconcile that, Dave? Bex: Yeah. So. DC: Well, you got you've got finish that verse. All things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. So I've got to walk by the calling. ⁓ if if even if you ⁓ read in in Matthew six when it talks about the Lord's prayer, ⁓ there's a hallowed be your name, ⁓ which is worship and reverence, ⁓ through to your kingdom come, your will be done. I'm not the king, you're the king, and I want what's in heaven to happen on earth, and I realize I'm an agent of that, then I'm ready to ask. Bex: Well. DC: ⁓ and so ⁓ so what I'm what I'm looking at is I'm actually submitting to God's calling and will. So all things work together for good for those who love the Lord, who are called according to his purpose. So I submit to his will. Therefore, when the difficult times come, I know that he's Lord. And I know that whether I see the prom Hebrews 11 talks about this huge hall of faith, hall of fame of faith, of people that just didn't see the promise in their lifetime. But we realize we're building something a kingdom of God which is way bigger than we could ever imagine or ask or dream or think. And so we see the promise in eventuality when we when we get to heaven. Sometimes you'll see that, many times you'll see that in step by step while you're here. But all things work together for good because God is actually doing something way larger than I could ever imagine on my behalf for his kingdom. And I'm going to submit to him. And so Bex: Okay. DC: what that means then is I have peace, I have life and peace through difficulty. And Paul was talking to a Roman church who was in the middle of persecution and suffering. And Romans 8 doesn't minimize the suffering. What it does is it magnifies what it produces and where it leads. And so, in the middle of all of those difficult things, I'm not going to get swayed by the temptation to isolate, reject, get angry, get fearful, blame. Bex: Okay. DC: God's not my cosmic Santa that I'm I'm hoping to get my Christmas card list from. I'm I'm He is the Lord writing a story that I can't even comprehend. If it if it's like it's like God is the size of the Pacific Ocean and my brain is the size of a Coke can. How could I comprehend the magnitude of God? I'm just gonna say, yes, God, my my life is in your hands. ⁓ and so I think that makes sense of that. So Bex: you . DC: He's gonna turn all things together for good, Jack. It's totally happening for those who love him, who are called according to his purpose and say yes to him. In the middle of difficulty, he's building something. Bex: Okay. Jack: Maybe you shared last episode, Bex, or or somewhere maybe in person and we might not see what that good is in our lifetime, but in in maybe in light of eternity we can see that good play out. Yeah. Do you wan do you want to perhaps speak to that perspective? Bex: Yeah, think, yeah, we talked about it from, ⁓ I can't remember what example I used, but I know that in the book of second Peter, think Paul says, I can't speak today, Peter's saying to this group of Christians who are being horrifically persecuted and they're desperate for Jesus to return. And he's like, hey, God's actually not slow with his promises, he's patient. so that as many people as, this is my paraphrase, so that as many people as possible will come to know him. And I think, gosh, I'm glad that Jesus didn't answer the prayers of that particular early church. They were desperate for Jesus to return to rescue them out of their suffering. But because he didn't answer the prayers the way that they wanted him to do, we now get to benefit and receive Jesus. We wouldn't even exist if Jesus had come back all those years ago that they were praying for. And by the same token, Paul, with the book of Romans, I think we spoke about this, he was desperate to get to the Roman church to be with them. And out of his frustration that he couldn't get there, he wrote the book of Romans, which is to our benefit. And it's that tapestry idea, right? We only see it from the back where it's a mess, but God's weaving something and we're going to get to glory and see it. And Paul says this even in this chapter where he says, ⁓ you know, Jack: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bex: If we are children, then we are heirs, heirs of God, co-heirs with Christ, then he says this, indeed we share in his sufferings, in order that we may also share in his glory. And I think one of the things that we struggle with, particularly probably in Pentecostalism, is having a good theology of suffering, understanding that. ⁓ DC: ⁓ that's a it's a it's a tough one to hold that intention because ⁓ when a believer lays hands upon the sick, they recover. And the more that I pray, the better my strike rate. If I don't pray, I see I I don't see miracles. And so there's this tension of suffering and the miraculous, the supernatural touch of God. I'm believing for breakthrough, but yet I'm in the middle of still needing that breakthrough. ⁓ I I think God doesn't answer break Bex: Thank DC: Prayers based upon my sense of timeliness or or urgency. If you go back to that Second Peter chapter three, verse nine, ⁓ Rebecca. ⁓ I won't say babe because Jack will think I'm talking about him again. the Lord is not the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Ins so, like ⁓ his sense of it's outside of time. It's ⁓ not on his base of ⁓ slowness. Instead, he is patient with you. Jack: Thank you for clarifying. Bex: Yeah. Thank ⁓ DC: I'm so glad. I am so glad I need his patience. Why is he patient? Because he's not wanting anyone to perish. It's back to his purposes. ⁓ all things work together for good for those who love the Lord, who are called according to his purposes. He doesn't want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. That's why God's patient. That's why, in the middle of difficulty, and I think in the middle of pain or suffering or difficulty in a fallen world, we shine brighter. I I don't people say, why do bad things happen to good people? Bex: . you DC: I think if we understand those bad things are what we're called to bring transformation to. That's that's if it was all good, we'd be like we'd be out of a job. But we're called to actually transform the world with the truth and the power of Jesus Christ. And I think the poor bad things that are in Newcastle don't know that there's a bunch of good lifers ready to come up, like we're ready to attack, we're ready to deal with, we're ready to influence, we're ready to bring transformation. With the truth and the power of Jesus Christ. Those poor bad things don't know what's about to hit them. Bex: Well, you tell me, what did you learn from that? Jack: Yeah, I love that. Bex, what is a theology of suffering? You just kind of slotted that in. ⁓ Well, yeah, I've just I've just finished reading a book by ⁓ Dr. Chris Palmer called A World Without God. And this like did a PhD on a theology of suffering. ⁓ fascinating read. ⁓ anyway. What is what is a theology of suffering? DC: How long have you got Jack? Jack: Well, this is a it's it's yeah. Look, it's a tricky book. It's not his thesis. ⁓ it's kind of a a novel of of the ⁓ kind of C. S. Lewis Chesterton kind of ilk, if you will. but really the the book itself is around ⁓ this little imaginary village desired to create a world without God. And as you preach recently, Dave, they got exactly what they asked for and it sort of unpacks that in a few different ⁓ a few different scenarios. DC: Ooh, that exactly. Bex: and Hmm. Jack: For for me, a theology of suffering is how do we think about God in light of suffering? Right. Suffering is part of the the human experience. And, you know, as you just described, we share in Christ's sufferings. And so it's not that we we can't pretend that suffering doesn't exist. And so therefore, how do we think about God in light of suffering? That's really the nature. We want to make sure that we haven't we might not be able to, is is it, I don't know who says it. You can tell me who says it. Bex: Dave looks like he's got something to say. ⁓ I like that. Jack: We might not be able to know everything completely when it comes to suffering, but we can know God accurately as it pertains to how and why we suffer. So that's how I would define it. ⁓ if you're welcome to correct me or add to that. DC: No, no, actually I I was I was keen too. Bex: I like it. Look, I always go back to the Word of God. It's just my first point ⁓ of everything I understand about God. I think even in Romans 8, it talks about this. ⁓ To me, the theology of suffering is this in verse 35, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, for your sake we being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. And people always want to skip that verse. They like the first bit, who shall separate us? And then they jump down to, all these things. But in the middle of it, there's some suffering. And then it says, no, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. So what are all these things? tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword, and being killed all day long and being sheep to be slaughtered. That's all these things. And he says, all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, neither angels nor rulers, nor things present or things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. And I think for me, without quoting theologians and all the rest of it, that is my theology of suffering, is that regardless of what I go through, I'm never alone. Nothing can separate me from the love of Christ. This life is not the only life. We live as if this is our only life, but it's not. And what is coming is far greater. And I think that Maybe, look, I was around to remember the 80s and there was the prosperity gospel and all of that. Only just, I was a very tiny baby in 1989. there was that prosperity thing and people who sit outside a church like ours would probably point the finger at us and say, you're a prosperity church. In fact, we have had that yelled at us. But the reality is that Jack: Wait. Hmm. Bex: That was actually only a very small part of the picture, that prosperity gospel idea. You know, you should be rich and wealthy. Well, I'm sorry, but that theology only actually works in the West for certain people, right? And if your theology doesn't work for someone who's in a prison in China or facing Muslim persecution and death in the Middle East or in any number of Muslim nations or in Nigeria, if your theology doesn't fit for that person, then it's a faulty theology, And so I'm looking at this going, well, this describes the person, the brave Christian in Nigeria who are, you know, I mean, they're being massacred right now by Muslims. And yet the truth of the scripture is still there. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? In all these things, our brothers and sisters in Nigeria are more than conquerors through him who loved Jack: Right. Bex: Right, and I think that's my theology of suffering. Jack: It's funny because it's not a pleasant topic to think about necessarily, but it's a really important and ideally, thinking about it before you go through horrible trials and tribulations and and having a strong theology of suffering to protect against some of those errors, if and w when most likely they come. It even came up a a a little bit around, well, like Calvinism and predestination and God's sovereignty and our role to play in a lot of these things. But I know. Well, I saved it till we've got four minutes to go. So that we can't go there properly. ⁓ but it like Romans eight kind of alludes to some of these things. And so therefore it's important that we do think through them so that so that we can see God accurately. Like that's the beaut that is what good theology is, right? Is being able to see God accurately for who he is, how he's ⁓ represented himself in scripture and as the Bex: You can't bring that in when we've got four minutes to go, Sorry, what kills you? I'm not following. Both of you? Jack: church has identified him for thousands of years and ⁓ Romans eight does a great job of that. The thing I struggle with with Romans eight is all of there's not many of them, but so many of the verses that I've memorized are in the New King James version. DC: ⁓ Jack. Jack. That had me. That had me. It was so Jack: Right. It kills me. that I there's I there's a there's a number of verses in Romans eight that I have memorized in the New King James translation and we preach from the NIV and it's very different. It's not the same. You just quoted Romans eight thirty eight and I know Romans eight thirty eight. It's not what you said. DC: Yes. Bex: Yeah. Well, I was doing from the ESV, so another translation again. The more translations, the better, sorry. I've also memorised in New King James and NIV, so. Jack: ⁓ they got you. ⁓ gosh. DC: ⁓ Jack: ⁓ well hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. DC: I ⁓ actually last night I finished up I finished up the message reading from the passion translation and went Woo Translation What about the Passion Translation, Rebecca? Bex: Bye. Jack: No, you can't say that with one minute to go. Bex: ⁓ I will allow you to call it the passion paraphrase. Yeah, not a translation, thank you. No matter how much it calls itself one, it is not one. Anyway, but on that note, I'm teaching my students all of that tomorrow, which will be fun. Yeah. Jack: ⁓ even that's a bit generous. DC: Yeah. ⁓ Jack: Yeah. Okay. yeah. DC: And I'll be teaching my students about the mindset. Woohoo have a mindset. Jack: There we go. Well on on on that maybe we can tackle Calvinism and the passion ⁓ version of the Bible maybe next episode. Bex: which is two separate issues by the way, we're not combining those, but yes. Let's see what the people think and if they respond saying they want to hear about Calvinism and the passion translation as two separate topics, we can cover that. DC: Yeah. Jack: No, no ⁓ well maybe they're not. I don't know. DC: ⁓ gee, I can't wait for that one. Bex: I reckon I could cover it in five minutes. Matt. Jack: How else? What else actually well here's something else that came up for another day when we're discussing Romans 8. ⁓ can you lose your salvation? So maybe we can tackle that one. That was a question that got asked. DC: Peace. Bex: Well that's connected to Calvinism actually, those theologies are tied together. So ⁓ yeah, we can cover that for sure. You might need to let me know when we're to cover it so I can make sure I've got my scriptures on hand because off top of my head I might not remember them. Jack: Yes. Okay. Sounds good. Well maybe, but you said yes last week when you preached, ⁓ you said that you prefer QA. You like it just kind of live. Right. Bex: I do love Q &A. No, I do love Q &A, but also if it's going to be recorded, then I'd like to be accurate. DC: ⁓ that's when you need to be accurate. Okay. Jack: Yeah, yeah, right, right. Okay. Well, on that note, let's ⁓ let's land it there. Thank you, Pastor Dave. Thank you, Pastor Bex. See you next episode. Bye bye. DC: Yeah. Tia. Bex: See ya.