Latest / Pastor John Piper's answers / What Is a ‘Fleshly’ Christian?

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What Is a ‘Fleshly’ Christian? · Pastor John Piper's answers

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  Speaker 1: Well, what is a fleshly Christian? Who are they? Why
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  Speaker 1: are they fleshy? And what can we do to help them?
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  Speaker 1: We find answers to those questions through today's email PASTORSHN,
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  Speaker 1: Hello to you and thank you for this podcast. My
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  Speaker 1: name is Micah from Maryland and I have a question
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  Speaker 1: for you about One Corinthians three to one. In One
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  Speaker 1: Corinthians two fourteen, Paul clearly contrasts the unspiritual person who
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  Speaker 1: lacks God's spirit with the spiritual person who has God's spirit. However,
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  Speaker 1: in one Corinthians three to one, Paul says he couldn't
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  Speaker 1: speak to the Corinthians as spiritual people, but as people
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  Speaker 1: of the flesh, calling them babies in Christ. This seems
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  Speaker 1: confusing because in One Corinthians one nine and three sixteen,
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  Speaker 1: Paul indicates that the Corinthians are saved and possessed the
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  Speaker 1: spirit of God, which should make them spiritual. So why
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  Speaker 1: does Paul say they are fleshly and immature. Did they
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  Speaker 1: not have God's spirit or is something else going on here? Additionally,
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  Speaker 1: it seems Paul refers to people of the flesh and
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  Speaker 1: babies in Christ as the same group. In One Corinthians
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  Speaker 1: three to one, but I'm struggling to understand how these
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  Speaker 1: terms align. Does being fleshly and a baby in Christ
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  Speaker 1: mean the same thing? Thank you, Pastor John.
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  Speaker 2: I agree with Micah that this could be confusing, and
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  Speaker 2: I think Paul would agree that he is using terminology
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  Speaker 2: here in on Corinthians two and three to make distinctions
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  Speaker 2: that are not easy for everyone to grasp. But he
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  Speaker 2: has a reason for doing that. Sometimes pastors have to
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  Speaker 2: use terminology very carefully and make distinctions where not everybody
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  Speaker 2: sees them, And I think in doing that, Paul is
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  Speaker 2: trying to rescue the people he calls babes or infants
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  Speaker 2: in Christ. He's trying to rescue them from being misled
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  Speaker 2: in two directions, either of two directions. On the one hand,
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  Speaker 2: they could be misled into presumption that there's no problem,
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  Speaker 2: they're safe, even as they walk in their immaturity and sin,
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  Speaker 2: no problem. I'm safe. I'm in Christ. That's presumption. And
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  Speaker 2: on the other hand, they could be misled into despair
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  Speaker 2: thinking I'm not even a Christian. There's some little fruit
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  Speaker 2: in my life because they're babes, and they might say, well,
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  Speaker 2: it's just no hope for me and throw it away,
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  Speaker 2: and he wants to handle them pastorally in a really
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  Speaker 2: striking and helpful way. At least it seems to me
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  Speaker 2: this is an amazing pastoral step that Paul is taking here.
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  Speaker 2: So let me read the text, so everybody's got it
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  Speaker 2: in front of them. Your minds, brothers, he starts. Now,
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  Speaker 2: that's significant, right, because he's going to talk to babes
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  Speaker 2: in Christ, Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual people,
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  Speaker 2: so he signals right off the bat they're Christians. At
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  Speaker 2: least he gives them the benefit of the doubt that
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  Speaker 2: they're Christians. Brothers, I could address I could not address
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  Speaker 2: you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh,
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  Speaker 2: as infants in Christ. In Christ crucial I fed you
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  Speaker 2: with milk, not solid food, for you weren't ready for it.
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  Speaker 2: And even now you're not ready for your still of
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  Speaker 2: the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you,
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  Speaker 2: are you not of the flesh and behaving in a
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  Speaker 2: human way? Literally walking according to man mere man? For
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  Speaker 2: when one says I follow Paul, and another says I
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  Speaker 2: follow Apollos, are you not being merely human? That's the text.
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  Speaker 2: So there are two kinds of people here. The spiritual
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  Speaker 2: people verse one, and the people of the flesh fleshy
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  Speaker 2: carnal sometimes is the word used babes in Christ. And
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  Speaker 2: he addresses both groups as brothers and as people who
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  Speaker 2: are in Christ. And we know from chapter one, verse thirty,
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  Speaker 2: to be in Christ is to be justified to be
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  Speaker 2: a Christian. Now, what makes this confusing to people is
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  Speaker 2: that just a few verses earlier, in chapter two, verses
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  Speaker 2: fourteen and fifteen, Paul contrasted spiritual people with natural people
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  Speaker 2: who are not Christians, which might then suggest that all
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  Speaker 2: Christians are spiritual spiritual people, that they're born of the spirit,
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  Speaker 2: leaving no room for anybody called babes in Christ who
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  Speaker 2: are Christian but they're not spiritual. Because it looks like
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  Speaker 2: in fourteen and fifteen that there's two people, two kinds
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  Speaker 2: of people, spiritual people and natural people, Christians and non Christians.
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  Speaker 2: And yet now he's talking in verse one of chapter
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  Speaker 2: three that they are spiritual people who are not the
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  Speaker 2: only kind of Christian because there are babes who are
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  Speaker 2: fleshly not spiritual. So here's what he says in verses
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  Speaker 2: fourteen and fifteen of chapter two. The natural person does
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  Speaker 2: not accept the things of the spirit of God. They
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  Speaker 2: are foolishness to him. He's not able to understand them
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  Speaker 2: because they're spiritually discerned. Those are not Christians, they're not
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  Speaker 2: born again, they're not saved, they don't have the Holy Spirit.
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  Speaker 2: There's no spiritual discernment in them at all. In verse fifteen,
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  Speaker 2: the spiritual person over against the natural person, assesses all
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  Speaker 2: things and is himself assessed. I would add the word
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  Speaker 2: properly assessed properly by no one. So it appears that
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  Speaker 2: we have two groups, the natural person and the spiritual person.
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  Speaker 2: In chapter two, verses fourteen fifteen. The natural person has
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  Speaker 2: no spiritual life and Christian is not a Christian, and
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  Speaker 2: the spiritual person has spiritual life and appears to be
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  Speaker 2: a Christian, pure and simple. However, since Paul says just
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  Speaker 2: a few verses later in chapter three, verse one, there
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  Speaker 2: are two groups of Christians, the spiritual and the babes,
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  Speaker 2: the carnal and the spiritual, the fleshly and the spiritual.
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  Speaker 2: So what do we do? What do we make of
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  Speaker 2: that seeming tension? And I think we should look in
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  Speaker 2: the context for some definition of spiritual in chapter two,
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  Speaker 2: verse fifteen that would make sense out of this, And
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  Speaker 2: I think the clue is found a few verses earlier
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  Speaker 2: in chapter two, verse six, where Paul says, among them
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  Speaker 2: mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a
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  Speaker 2: wisdom of this age. So I think these mature Christians
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  Speaker 2: that he refers to in two six are what he's
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  Speaker 2: referring to in verse fifteen when he speaks of the
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  Speaker 2: spiritual person assessing properly all things. And then he says
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  Speaker 2: in chapter three, verse one, that he could not address
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  Speaker 2: the babes as mature as spiritual. In other words, they
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  Speaker 2: weren't mature. That's what he means when he says they
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  Speaker 2: weren't spiritual. So we have three categories of persons, the unbeliever,
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  Speaker 2: who called called a natural person, the mature Christian, who
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  Speaker 2: in this context is called a spiritual person, and the
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  Speaker 2: immature Christian, who in this case is called a babe
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  Speaker 2: or carnal or fleshly. Now why does Paul talk like this?
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  Speaker 2: Why a category of Christian that is fleshly? And the
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  Speaker 2: answer is that he wants to help them avoid being
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  Speaker 2: misled in two directions, or either of two directions. First,
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  Speaker 2: he doesn't want them to despair that their immaturity means
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  Speaker 2: they're not Christians. So he calls them brothers, and he
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  Speaker 2: calls them babes in Christ. Those are strong reassurances to
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  Speaker 2: the immature Christian that Paul is not yet willing to
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  Speaker 2: write them off as natural pace people. But now in
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  Speaker 2: verse three, the note changes, the tone changes. In verses
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  Speaker 2: one and two, he's speaking in the past tense. I
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  Speaker 2: was not able to address you as spiritual. I had
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  Speaker 2: to address you as babes. You were not able to
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  Speaker 2: eat solid food. But now in verse three he shifts
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  Speaker 2: to the present tense, and his words take on a
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  Speaker 2: tone of warning, as if to say, don't keep on
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  Speaker 2: like this. You are still of the flesh. I'm not
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  Speaker 2: giving up on you. But you're acting as if you
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  Speaker 2: were mere men. Now that's devastating. He's not saying they
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  Speaker 2: are mere men. You're acting like mere men. That is,
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  Speaker 2: men without the Holy Spirit, without life from God, just
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  Speaker 2: mere fallen human beings. That's the way you're acting. I'm
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  Speaker 2: not saying that you are, but that's the way you're acting.
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  Speaker 2: And sooner or later, if you only act as mere humans,
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  Speaker 2: you're going to prove you are only mere humans. You
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  Speaker 2: are a natural person. So what's the issue? Verse three
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  Speaker 2: tells us, while there is jealousy and strife among you,
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  Speaker 2: are you not behaving as merely human? So why is
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  Speaker 2: it that they can't eat solid food mature doctrine?
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  Speaker 1: Why?
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  Speaker 2: Well, the answer would be, wouldn't it What's at the
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  Speaker 2: root of jealousy and strife? Jealousy of strife is what's
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  Speaker 2: marking them out as babes, immature and unable to eat
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  Speaker 2: what they ought to be eating. And what's it the
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  Speaker 2: root of jealousy and strife pride. That's what this whole
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  Speaker 2: first four chapters are about. The reason they could not
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  Speaker 2: receive solid food is because they didn't have sufficient humility.
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  Speaker 2: The issue is not oh, heavy doctrine, rich, mature doctrine.
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  Speaker 2: You gotta have an intellect for that, and Paul says, no,
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  Speaker 2: you don't. You got to have humility. That's what you
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  Speaker 2: gotta have. You got to stop trying to puff yourself
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  Speaker 2: up with jealousy and strife. As long as you're acting
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  Speaker 2: in jealous ways and creating strife, you're not going to
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  Speaker 2: be able to handle mature doctrine. Humility fits a person
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  Speaker 2: to eat and digest profound Christ, exalting God, centered Bible
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  Speaker 2: rich sometimes mind blowing doctrine. And that makes sense, doesn't it.
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  Speaker 2: If you're a proud person, you're just gonna stiff arm
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  Speaker 2: the God centeredness of the Bible. So yes, Micah, it
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  Speaker 2: can be confusing. I admit that I think Paul would say,
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  Speaker 2: I'm doing the best I can with God's guidance to
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  Speaker 2: help these dear babes. But I encourage you to take
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  Speaker 2: heart and press in and look for the wisdom of
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  Speaker 2: the Also Paul, in the way he deals with different
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  Speaker 2: kinds of people, always trying to rescue us from presumption
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  Speaker 2: and despair.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, a fleshly person is an immature believer dominated by pride, jealousy,
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  Speaker 1: and division, whom Paul lovingly calls to humility and maturity
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  Speaker 1: in Christ to avoid both presumption and despair. That is
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  Speaker 1: really good. Thank you, Pester John. You mentioned that the
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  Speaker 1: humility required in our Bible reading a humility that you
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  Speaker 1: have modeled for us in every episode of this podcast,
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  Speaker 1: and I had an opportunity to reflect on this in
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  Speaker 1: the APG book and the introduction and that little section
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  Speaker 1: called an origin story talking about the genesis of this
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  Speaker 1: podcast in the humble disposition that you bring to reading
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  Speaker 1: the Bible. I think it's why this podcast even exists
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  Speaker 1: in the first place. Thank you best John for this
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  Speaker 1: response and for position to what God reveals to us
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  Speaker 1: in his word, and thank you for joining us today.
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  Speaker 1: Have a question to ask Pastor John. Find a link
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  Speaker 1: to email us and find our complete episode archive at
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  Speaker 1: the same place. Ask Pastor John dot com Well. Speaking
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  Speaker 1: of needing humility to really hear from the text, it's
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  Speaker 1: about the most frightening text in the Bible, and it's
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  Speaker 1: from the lips of Jesus in Mark eight thirty eight.
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  Speaker 1: For whoever is ashamed of me and my words in
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  Speaker 1: this adulterous and sinful generation of him, will the son
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  Speaker 1: of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the
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  Speaker 1: glory of his Father with the Holy Angels. Wow. Discipleship
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  Speaker 1: means embracing the world's shame. That's next time. I'm Tony Ranky.
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  Speaker 1: We'll see you on Monday.