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JUST SA Gauteng — Dr Samukelisiwe Mdlalose · TIPS Podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast, Tips Talk, the show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Note Mbi Maslangu, and today we are asking why it is important for local and provincial government officials in the Ghaudeng province to understand the impact of climate change and the imperative to decarbonize our economy as well as make the transition just.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: We are finding ourselves today in Johannesburg to see how government officials can turn policy into action.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a special guest with us, Dr.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Mdla Losi.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: It is a great pleasure to have you on our podcast today.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And before we start our discussion around the just transition, to ground our listeners, could you introduce yourself and just share a bit of the work that you're currently doing?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning, everybody.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am Samgel Sue Mlaloosse, a manager for environmental management.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am responsible for environmental regulatory services, which look at the authorization and compliance with environmental legislation.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I am also responsible for environmental education and awareness.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then also in my portfolio we have climate change and air quality management.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the main three.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: But my work is from environmental legislation all the way to air quality and compliance and climate change.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: It is cross-cutting.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is touching almost every aspect of environment, including the economic development of the municipality and the infrastructure services.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: How does it touch them?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to compliance, let's say for instance, our infrastructure want to install maybe a pipeline or construct a road or any infrastructure related.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So before they implemented a project, in actual fact we have agreed with them that they must talk to us during their planning phase.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: The reason being we don't want at the end when they are ready to start, then we come with compliance issues.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if they involve us during the planning stage, we are in a position to advise them that if you are going to do this project, these are the compliances and maybe the licenses or the authorization that you require, and they require those authorizations up front so that we don't delay the project.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: But continuing, which was a bit of a struggle when we started, is that they must understand that each authorization comes with conditions.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So once you obtain the authorization or the license, you are not done.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: You still have the conditions that you need to comply with.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And generally the conditions are continuous for the duration of the project.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: If it is a project that has a lifespan.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it means there will be conditions aligned to construction, aligned to operation, and then aligned to the decommissioning or the closure of the project, which usually then is followed by rehabilitation if it is required.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that is mainly my core function.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why it is a core function.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: It also has litigation part.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: If the municipality doesn't comply, it means we can be fined, there could be prosecution, and there are cases where the municipal manager or the responsible project manager has been arrested or found guilty at personal capacity.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So then they cannot be held liable alone because then it's easy to say that I was not advised, and who is at the advisor reside, it's me.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not as simple as we always see it on TV that maybe the municipality has been fined due to non-compliance.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: When you see it, you only see the name of the municipality.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of officials underneath the name of the municipality with the responsibility where you need to account.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Did you do your part and how far did you do it?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's such a critical role that we cannot easily avoid.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: But being that the case, how does it link to the country's economy?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: If we comply, we also increase the investor's confidence.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you are sitting maybe somewhere, whether it's USO, you want to invest, you want a country where your investment will yield the profit towards you.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to invest, then the next thing the project is stopped, it's as a loss to the investor.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So once we pride ourselves with compliance, we are meeting all the regulations and standards.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the confidence from the investors, remember they also know.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it increases.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if the investor confidence increases, it is translated to the country's economy or the municipal economy that increases.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: All these things eventually are interlinked.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: With the economy increasing and the investor confidence, then we get more jobs.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because with projects coming, then there is employment.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: With the employment, there's poverty alleviation.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you can see the cycle, how does one link to another?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: But another part, if we can link it to climate change, if I am complying, the conditions are more towards addressing the degradation of the environment.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: If we are going to implement the projects according to what the conditions are saying, make sure that you don't maybe develop your project on the wetland, make sure that you don't log your stormwater systems and you have your plants or your greening in certain areas so that we have the greenlands of the municipality, then we are already addressing the climate change issues.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: As part of either the adaptation where we already have a problem and then we are addressing it, let's say we are addressing the warming or the urban heat islands by planting the trees.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we are not only addressing that issue, we planted the trees but they give different benefits.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because if there are trees, they absorb water and they reduce the speed, yet they are also addressing cooling the area during the warmer days that we have.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there is always an interlink.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: You don't do one thing and only benefit that side.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: When you sit down and look at the intervention, it eventually addresses maybe about five issues.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: It also addresses the health.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: If the environment is clean, then it means our human and animals, the health standard increases, yet we are addressing the illegal dumping.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And usually what we do with our illegal dumping hotspot, it's either we convert it into a usable park where people will be playing and we have our tree and it's nice and beautiful, or we convert it into we have the urban agriculture where we take the unused area which eventually attract the illegal dumping and we develop it into a community garden.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So in that way, you also address the increase of agricultural produce which increases the availability of food.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there is much of interlinking, and when you are doing it, you begin to enjoy what you are doing because you know the impact that it has on people's lives, on the environment, and also on the country's economy at large.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your introduction and also the overview on the projects that you're doing.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is very important work that you're doing in terms of impact.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: After the two-day intensive training for the just transition and green economy, what would you say stood out for you in terms of policy, in terms of unlocking green opportunities as well?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: What stood out on our side was as much as the things that we are already doing, which I have highlighted, it gave us an understanding of the business partners that we should approach.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: The businesses are willing to assist as long as you have a clear proposal of what you want to do.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I will show you when we walk outside.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: We already have Unico, the plastic companies that are making dice pins.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: We bought the black pins that we use for our daily voice collection, but they gave us a donation of the colorful one, which we are using it for separation at source.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have red, yellow, and blue papers, bottles, and plastic.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: That one was a donation.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do with it?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: We are donating it to our schools, and that way we assist the teachers as part of their curriculum to do the environmental education and awareness to the kids, which is also important to us because once you teach a kid, whatever that they learn at school, they also do it at home.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then another one that we have managed to do the partnership with is the electronic waste recycling.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: They have put two stations, one in our main building and then one at the where they are calling for the communities within the municipality.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you have your electronic that you are no longer using, like people have a lot of cell phones, have the chargers and those things that is no longer operational and they don't know what to do with them.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, then we take them to those electronic recycling and they get a little bit of what they get from the company.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: But instead of you dumping it in the dustbin, which could have landed in our landfill site, we have that company as part of the simple uses with the municipality.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Another one is partnership with higher educational institutions.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: In particular, we have an MOU with UNISA, VETS, UJ, those are the main three.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it is helping us to identify the air pollution hotspot.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Six came from UJ and I think three came from Feds, but they said they are still going to give us more.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we have put them strategically in the areas where we have been experiencing a lot of complaints so that we will know exactly what kind of air pollution that we are getting.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the partnership or collaboration with higher institutions is assisting, including also them sending their students.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have students from UNISA who are using our wastewater treatment plant for them to advise later on on what is it that you can use the wastewater treatment water for or the sewage water.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then also on the landfill, they are participating a lot to help the reclaimers.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Whilst they are getting their data, they also assist the reclaimers, they gave them the PPE and also assist them to sort their waste at the landfill in a way that doesn't affect their health.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Another collaboration that we have is with CSIR and Agricultural Research Council, and that one is more about the research and the recommendation that they give to the municipality.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then important also what was learned on the training is to encourage communities to be self-sustainable, that you can use even a small space within your own community or in front of your house or in the open space where they can produce their own food.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And also we are encouraging them to reuse as much as they can.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: The containers, if you happen to buy ice cream, maybe whether it was Christmas or what, don't throw away the container, use it for something else, the bottles, and those that they can sell, like um through the recyclables to give them a little bit of income.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that was mean mostly we are focusing on the practical one that doesn't need injection of a lot of income.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to come with an idea and after presenting, and then the person saying, But I don't have money.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: We want something that you can do even if you don't have money or you are not working.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or with a little bit of assistance, like when we encourage them for food gardens, we supply the seeds and the menu, and then we have our horticultural officers who assist them with telling them how to plant, how to take care of their vegetables until they reach the stage where they are harvesting.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that is mainly what we have learned, but we are focusing more on the practical one.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have our cleaning campaigns where we request the same communities because most of the illegal dumping happens within where they live.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: We ask them to participate during the cleaning campaign.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, once you have cleaned your own house, you don't want to make it dead.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if we involve them, usually we don't get the area to go back to the dirty stage very quickly because they are now guarding it.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I cleaned here and I won't allow a person to come and dirty it.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it gives them the ownership and the love of their surroundings, basically.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is very important things you mentioned in terms of skills development, you know, the collaboration with universities and also involving the community.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, with all these green opportunities, what challenges can you say that you faced and you expect to face in the just transition?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: The challenges that we are facing, yes, I said most of our focus is on what doesn't need money.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you cannot implement all projects without money.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, we do need funding and the municipality doesn't have much.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And for them, yes, it's easy to say you are doing this for your own household, but you wish to see them growing into businesses and that needs money, that needs bigger land.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if they know how to plant maybe millimale or pumpkin or whatever, but you wish them to grow to a point that maybe they can plant and supply the supermarkets or they can process if it is possible.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we wish to move them from stage one, if I can say self-sustainability, stage one.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: We wish to move them into the real business opportunity which will change their livelihood for better.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second one is South Africa have old infrastructure which was not properly maintained.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So most of the floods that we are having, what we have noticed is that sometimes the rain was not that much.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is because our infrastructure has not been improved or upgraded to a stage where it can absorb the pressure from the rain that is coming.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was easy if the urbanization was not this much because there were a lot of natural open spaces that absorb rain and the the flooding was low.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now we see that the area has been developed.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are businesses, there are houses.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it means there is less open space, yet more buildings, but the infrastructure, the stormwater has not been upgraded to the level that it can absorb this flooding.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hence, we have a lot of flash floods.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you notice the floodings that we have now and the frequency and the impact, people losing it's it's it's like every year it's the worst than what happened last year.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's because the infrastructure and the development, it is not well aligned.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that is what the municipality needs to do.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: We can do so much with the existing, but we need to upgrade it to the level which it can match the development that has happened.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then another thing which we know, I think it was not from this training, this one.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: What I said, Blame or a comment was we see the sign throughout the year.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even in winter, the we will have a level of sunshine, but our solar system or solar energy system is not at that level.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yet we are complaining about load shedding and we don't have enough electricity.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the areas that need to be developed.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: It won't only address the energy supply, but it will also have the positive effects on climate change should it can be addressed.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then another one is knowing that we are a water scarce country, we are encouraging rainwater harvesting, but we don't give infrastructure.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Go to low income houses like our RDP and carate them that you need to have a store, but then the answer is with what?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we we need now to have some of a support where our ideas come with the necessity resources which will allow us to get the outcomes that we are looking for.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you for that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in terms of you mentioned solar and you know, there are many other projects in terms of wind for creating electricity in Ghao Teng province.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Would you say there's a lot happening around that area?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a lot of opportunities?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, with the municipality, what project would you say is coming up for the just transition?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly here in Ghao Ding.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wind is not that much, but solar and rainwater harvesting on top, and then another one we have a good agricultural potential land.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: We have a potential of producing, and there are agri hubs that we know which were built but never used, which lack just a little bit of upgrading and then we can use them.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the main tree in houten, it could be agriculture, solar and rainwater harvesting.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: What we can as an advantage of our municipality, we are in an area which links if you travel on I think it's N1 or eventually becomes N12 and N4, all the way from Zimbabwe through Puluguan, you pass Mukhale City to Botswan.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that transition belt, it's a good linkage of linking different provinces with other two main countries, the main being Zimbabwe and Botswana.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: So be that the case, we can take advantage of that where we can provide more of what even the people who are passing easily benefit on.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: So our infrastructure should also be upgraded to a point where it can take that pressure, yet we can look at it as an advantage.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: That then it means should we have more of the economic development, we can easily upgrade and improve our economy due to the positioning of our municipality.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you so much for your insights today.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is very great hearing your perspective on the just transition and the green economy.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we really hope our listeners walk away with a lot of inspiration from the province and also for their work in their own regions.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, before you say goodbye, one thing that I missed, which just came to my mind right now, there is a proposed smart city which will link Zhuane, Jobek, and Mukhale City.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: So in that one, also, if we can take the advantage of how our community can benefit in the smart city, it should not be this thing that when you are a local community, you see this beautiful thing, but it is like it's not for me, it's for someone else.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we should look at how the communities can benefit from the upcoming smart city in a way that doesn't affect the environment and also improve the climate change effects and implementation of more greener projects.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, thank you for that.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting to hear about the plans on the smart city.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, there are a few provinces also working on some of those initiatives, and it's very interesting and exciting work.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for your input today.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: That wraps up today's episode.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: A huge thank you to our guests for sharing their expertise and time with us and for attending this training.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you'll continue to champion the mandate of greening the economy in a just and equitable way.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And to our listeners, your support means the world to us.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and connect with us on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, I'm your host, Note Bima Hanganui, signing off.