Latest / Sessions Canceled / Making Memorable Villains: Ep. 183

Transcript

Making Memorable Villains: Ep. 183 · Sessions Canceled

• 0:08
  What's? Up, gamers, we're back at it
• 0:16
  again. At the Krispy Kreme, players
• 0:21
  flipped a table and threw a chair because the GM revealed
• 0:24
  that the evil wizard came back in another new body again, he
• 0:29
  had more simulacrum bodies. Just doesn't seem to run out.
• 0:34
  And they really somebody compared it to Doombots and then
• 0:39
  someone else got really mad about the idea of Doombots and
• 0:41
  the idea of doom. And then it just devolved even
• 0:43
  further because then it became a weird argument about like Marvel
• 0:46
  villains, which like really wasn't the point.
• 0:50
  And then the GM just got tired and just was like, you know,
• 0:53
  I'm, I'm, I'm and I'm a head out and the sessions cancel to.
• 0:58
  Be clear, it was me. I was the one who bitches about
• 0:59
  the Doombots. It's always you who bitches
• 1:02
  about the doom bots. I hate Doom.
• 1:03
  Doom sucks. Doom is a shit villain.
• 1:05
  Fight me. I feel like people can't even
• 1:08
  say the word doom around you. Like just the word doom around
• 1:11
  you without you getting slightly triggered.
• 1:14
  I dude, because I'm so sick of fucking people being like Nah,
• 1:18
  Doctor Doom is awesome. No the fuck he isn't.
• 1:20
  He's a dork. Listen, I don't I don't know
• 1:24
  enough to really have this argument, but I do feel like
• 1:26
  your hate boner is perhaps a little overextended.
• 1:29
  No, no, the Fantastic Four or whatever.
• 1:33
  And they've got stupid villains. You.
• 1:37
  Don't like Galactus? He's got a stupid hat.
• 1:42
  I kind of fuck with Galactus's hat.
• 1:44
  I don't I I like the idea of Galactus and I've seen good
• 1:47
  versions of Galactus that I'm like, ah, this is pretty sick.
• 1:50
  But like, I don't know, he's all right.
• 1:55
  Hot Marvel. Takes here with Isaiah.
• 1:58
  Look, I'm sorry, but they're Fantastic Four not are they're
• 2:00
  not batting 1000. They got fucking Mole Man, Doom,
• 2:03
  Fin, Fang, Foom and fucking. Hey yo-yo yo, we don't be sassy
• 2:06
  about boy Fing Fang Foom. No, don't shut the fuck up.
• 2:10
  No. Get the fuck out, it's my dog
• 2:12
  Fing Fang Foom with his weird. I know you don't actually give a
• 2:15
  fuck about thing bang foom. With his weird human face.
• 2:20
  We're not doing this. I'm not see, I'm not listening
• 2:23
  to anti fin Fang Foo slander. Slander that motherfucker till
• 2:26
  the cows go. I'm not hearing it you.
• 2:30
  Refuse to hear Fin Fang Foom glazing.
• 2:32
  No, I refuse. I'm not fucking hearing it.
• 2:38
  There's gonna be some motherfucker out here who's
• 2:40
  like, no, I really like Mole Man.
• 2:42
  I really like what he he offers to the story.
• 2:44
  No, shut up. You're a nerd.
• 2:46
  I like how you went with mole Man.
• 2:47
  You weren't even willing to continue the Fin Fang Foom
• 2:49
  discourse. Look, yeah, sure, he's whatever.
• 2:52
  He's just a big fucking green dragon with a dumb human face
• 2:56
  and do. Himself.
• 2:57
  His face is weird as hell. I'm not going to count the
• 3:00
  Silver Surfer because he's barely a Marvel villain.
• 3:02
  He's pretty much a protagonist at this point.
• 3:03
  I do fuck with Silver Surfer. I like with him a lot.
• 3:05
  I like him a lot. You like him with titties?
• 3:09
  I do. I do like these.
• 3:12
  That's actually so it's funny and that they're they're
• 3:14
  referencing there is actually a female Silver Surfer at some
• 3:17
  point. I know there is.
• 3:18
  It's, it's a different person. It's not the same person.
• 3:21
  Yes, look, I I know because the fucking the the fake comic nerd
• 3:25
  grog nards were like, why don't they make her a warrant?
• 3:28
  It's like, you're a nerd. Shut up.
• 3:31
  Yeah, I would say meaner things if we were not a podcast.
• 3:36
  That's fair anyway, you don't think something Superman
• 3:42
  indomitables will or whatever the fuck?
• 3:47
  The IT took me a second to get the job.
• 3:53
  It is indomitable. And I don't like Crypto the
• 3:58
  Super dog because I hate joy. Motherfucker got no whimsy.
• 4:03
  God damn. I yeah, that's one way to put
• 4:06
  it. If you know who we're
• 4:07
  referencing right there, you a real 1.
• 4:11
  All my homie slander. All my yeah all my homie
• 4:15
  slander. Including Crispy's Tavern,
• 4:18
  apparently. Yeah, Jesus Christ.
• 4:23
  Oh my God. Anyway, you know Crispy Taverns,
• 4:26
  You know what he talks about? He talks about RPGs, which is
• 4:29
  also what we talk about. I've I've heard that we do talk
• 4:32
  about that. We do.
• 4:33
  Sometimes when we can, yeah, When we can manage it.
• 4:39
  Not having me go absolutely bonkers over how much I over
• 4:43
  Doctor Doom. Look, I could I could do a whole
• 4:48
  episode on Isaiah's hot takes about Marvel Comics.
• 4:51
  I I know you can. I I'm aware and they do be
• 4:55
  crispy sometimes. Oh, yes, Sir.
• 4:59
  You know, anyway, anyway we can do this?
• 5:03
  The X-Men suck. Don't.
• 5:07
  You're going to get me annoyed too.
• 5:08
  Now. Don't be doing this.
• 5:11
  Don't be doing this. Don't be doing this.
• 5:16
  I, I, I'm, I'm resisting the urge to fucking go off on you
• 5:20
  right now anyway. Real X-Men, enjoy your argument.
• 5:25
  Yeah, I mean a subset of the X-Men.
• 5:28
  I like certain X-Men. Let's be clear.
• 5:29
  I feel like that's true of everyone who likes X-Men,
• 5:31
  though. You'll like certain ones.
• 5:33
  No, look, here's the thing. Like Scott, I think.
• 5:36
  But Ileana Rasputin is my girl. Magic is my girl.
• 5:39
  She can do no wrong. She's never done any wrong.
• 5:42
  Except that one time. Don't worry about.
• 5:43
  It I was going to say I would argue she's done a lot wrong
• 5:45
  all. Right.
• 5:46
  Like one time it was one time. I guess.
• 5:51
  And she's played by objective best girl Anya Taylor Joy, so
• 5:54
  like, it's fine. She was played by Anya Taylor
• 5:57
  Joy, It's true. Do you ever you know, I didn't
• 6:05
  know this is stupid tangent, but I'm just I'm throwing it out
• 6:08
  there. Whatever, who cares?
• 6:09
  I'm. Just going to give the most
• 6:11
  Evergreen take by the way. What?
• 6:14
  I was about to be like Spider Man is the best character with
• 6:17
  the worst fucking comic runs, but no, that's a pretty
• 6:20
  Evergreen I was. Gonna say that's not a hot tank.
• 6:22
  I think most Spider man fans agree with you.
• 6:24
  That is literally the coldest tank I was.
• 6:28
  Gonna say I think that's pretty common, that spider man just
• 6:30
  gets weirdly dicked on. But you know how you know what?
• 6:36
  What's Magic's little dragon called again?
• 6:39
  Lockheed, Lockheed. I I didn't know that that little
• 6:43
  dragon was called that, so I watched season 1 of Critical
• 6:47
  Role. Not of the.
• 6:48
  Standing yeah, why he named the dragon Lockheed.
• 6:51
  I was like that's an odd name and then I watched the not even
• 6:53
  humans, the new mutants, whatever the movie was new
• 6:57
  mutants and I heard her say his name was Lockheed and I was like
• 7:02
  oh, oh, that's a weird reference.
• 7:06
  All right yeah, I don't know. He was like tiny Dragon just
• 7:12
  take from the X-Men character like OK I guess.
• 7:15
  He hung out, he was, he was Kate Pride's familiar for a while.
• 7:18
  Not not Kitty pride, Kate Pride, the new Hawkeye.
• 7:23
  Right right right. Why they would give 2 characters
• 7:26
  with AK first name and Pride as a last name on their fucking no
• 7:29
  but it's fine. Just Marvel thinks, all right,
• 7:35
  we're not talking about comics though, but we are talking about
• 7:38
  villains. Dun Dun Dun, spooky music.
• 7:42
  Do the the Thunder clapped up. You know, I was thinking that.
• 7:51
  What is that from by the way? I you know, that's a good I'm
• 7:54
  going to look it up while you while you talk I.
• 7:56
  Feel like, I feel like we should find out.
• 8:00
  Yeah. Villains, villains, those those
• 8:06
  are the Ogs, which is probably nobody anymore at this point,
• 8:09
  but we did actually do 2 like villain episodes already and I
• 8:16
  don't care. I wanted to revisit it.
• 8:18
  Also, I don't know new ideas. Also, I think I'm talking about
• 8:21
  something slightly different. Also, I don't think I was in the
• 8:24
  original or no, I know I wasn't the the first episode talking
• 8:28
  about villains was just Isaiah and Matt so.
• 8:32
  Oh yeah. Yeah.
• 8:34
  So I wasn't there anyway. And yeah, I want to so I want to
• 8:38
  give some takes on some villain. I don't not takes.
• 8:40
  All right, I I stumbled into some some stuff, I guess.
• 8:46
  Before we stumble our words more into some sort of coherent
• 8:50
  sentences, take a moment to hit, follow or subscribe on your
• 8:54
  platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous,
• 8:56
  we have a donation link in the description.
• 8:58
  Brother, you stumbled through the thought about stumbling
• 9:00
  through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:02
  That was deep. All righty, I had to take a
• 9:11
  little little sip of the liquid. It's wet the whistle.
• 9:19
  So villains, villains, villains, villains.
• 9:22
  This is really one of those like Evergreen topics because I feel
• 9:27
  like people are constantly revisiting the well of as AGM.
• 9:31
  How do I make my villains like, fun or interesting or compelling
• 9:35
  or just like, you know, a good time to use in my game?
• 9:39
  It just really the, the, the debates never end.
• 9:43
  So naturally, of course, I'm now going to add on to the Internet
• 9:46
  debates because why not? I, I will say I, if I remember
• 9:55
  correctly, I'm, I'm, I'm on record, as it were in this
• 9:59
  particular podcast of having said that I don't feel like I do
• 10:03
  villains particularly well in my games.
• 10:07
  I think that's probably still true to a degree, but I do feel
• 10:11
  like I've perhaps just by sheer force of just trying out and
• 10:19
  doing stuff, I do think I've happened upon some better
• 10:22
  methodology and had some accidental successes in terms of
• 10:29
  making villains. Well, actually, so I gotta why
• 10:33
  do you say that you you don't have good villains?
• 10:39
  Because up until very recently, I can't remember or name or feel
• 10:44
  like there's anything super interesting about any villains
• 10:46
  that I've come up with in my games.
• 10:49
  Oh, interesting. You know what's funny from a
• 10:50
  player's perspective? I disagree.
• 10:52
  I think you got a couple really memorable villains.
• 10:55
  I can think of 2. Right now, I mean, the
• 11:00
  Inquisitor dude from Star Wars, even though he like literally
• 11:03
  showed up one time, he kind of had the Vader effect of like, oh
• 11:07
  fuck off shit. Oh fuck, we got to go.
• 11:09
  We got to go right now. Yeah, I feel like rebellion.
• 11:14
  Rebellion was one I was thinking of, but that was an accident.
• 11:18
  But here's the thing, it's one of those just just take credit
• 11:21
  for it because Belly was great. I'm just saying.
• 11:24
  And then I mean, yeah, I mean, I think Baron Focus, you've hit a,
• 11:26
  you've hit an all time high on that one.
• 11:28
  Yeah. Well, that was, yeah, that was
• 11:29
  the other main one I was thinking about.
• 11:30
  But like beyond those, I can't really think of anything else.
• 11:33
  That's kind of what I'm getting at.
• 11:35
  Like I've also done a lot of, I've done quite a few times
• 11:41
  where the villain is not a particular person.
• 11:43
  It's sort of like a, it's like a larger scope thing.
• 11:47
  Like it's a, you know, like I did the dredge and like the
• 11:50
  dredge are are more like a force of nature type villain.
• 11:54
  And like I had my Dungeon World campaign where the villain was
• 11:58
  sort of a like the, the prophecy in a weird way.
• 12:06
  And then I had like my stars campaign where there kind of
• 12:12
  wasn't really a villain, although that game's a little
• 12:15
  bit that was like a sandboxy situation.
• 12:17
  That one's hard. There was there was a particular
• 12:19
  villain S character, but he definitely didn't hit.
• 12:23
  I mean he was a nuisance and he like got a rise out of my
• 12:28
  players at the time, but I don't know that he like, I mean, shit,
• 12:32
  I can't even remember what like what his name was or anything.
• 12:35
  And I, I ran the damn game. So.
• 12:39
  And then like, Blades just, I don't think there was enough
• 12:44
  time in the oven to do anything there.
• 12:52
  Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of not remembering.
• 12:55
  That's what I mean. So like, I feel like because a
• 12:59
  lot of them don't stick in my brain, I'm kind of like not, not
• 13:03
  hitting it that way, you know what I'm saying?
• 13:05
  Fair enough. Yeah.
• 13:06
  I mean, I I think you definitely.
• 13:11
  What was I going to say? I definitely think your lack of
• 13:21
  of like dedicated villains does not detract from your ability to
• 13:24
  right villains. That makes sense.
• 13:30
  How do you mean like? So again, like the dredge
• 13:33
  circumstance, I would say just because those, how do I want to
• 13:38
  wear this? It seems like you more often
• 13:42
  than not prefer to write situational villainry as opposed
• 13:46
  to like a dedicated villain. But I wouldn't say that that
• 13:49
  means that you're bad at writing villains.
• 13:51
  It just seems like you prefer one style of writing antagonism
• 13:55
  over the other. You know what I mean?
• 13:57
  I have done that quite a few times, yes.
• 14:00
  Weirdly, I don't feel like it was a conscious thing.
• 14:03
  It just, I just feel like it's kind of kept happening.
• 14:07
  And The funny thing is in media, I don't generally like that kind
• 14:12
  of villain. I do like a villain who's like
• 14:15
  sticks around and really antagonizes things.
• 14:19
  So I don't know why I haven't done it that way.
• 14:22
  I just sort of haven't, you know what I mean?
• 14:24
  It's kind of a weird thing. It's like a weird happenstance
• 14:26
  that I've I've come up with ideas that in a show I probably
• 14:31
  wouldn't necessarily like as much either.
• 14:33
  Some of it, some of it is a little bit because I'm trying to
• 14:36
  necessitate a game, right? Because part of what you need to
• 14:43
  have a campaign is to have a sort of omnipresent threat type
• 14:47
  thing going on in order to keep things, you know, moving.
• 14:50
  Like to feel like there's a, there's a tension at all times
• 14:53
  kind of situation. So some of it's somewhat out of
• 14:56
  necessity of quote UN quote running, you know, just running
• 14:59
  a game. But yeah, it's not necessarily a
• 15:03
  preference. Like one of the reasons that I
• 15:08
  really love Knives in Trigun Stampede as opposed to Knives in
• 15:14
  the original Trigun anime is because Knives and Stampede is
• 15:18
  really, really present the entire series.
• 15:22
  I mean, like, doesn't he literally show up in episode
• 15:25
  what? What, like 2 of Stampede, right?
• 15:28
  Yeah, like the first, like what, maybe episode 3, something like
• 15:31
  that. He shows up right at the
• 15:33
  beginning and Knives is like present and he's talked about
• 15:38
  and he's affecting things right from the jump.
• 15:42
  So by the by the time you get to the end of Stampede, the like
• 15:45
  final confrontation has that weight and that feeling 'cause
• 15:49
  you have back story and he's been on screen and you've got
• 15:51
  his machinations and you've got his relationships with other
• 15:54
  villains and shit. So it's like that's the kind of
• 15:57
  thing I like doing, but weirdly haven't done that much, which is
• 16:01
  kind of why I'm doing. It's just kind of why we're
• 16:05
  talking about it now is because I feel like I figured out how I
• 16:10
  can go about doing that and, you know, can throw out some
• 16:14
  potential wisdom to help others with this.
• 16:16
  Because really, the thing I want to talk about isn't so much
• 16:22
  making good villains quote, UN quote, but I want to make
• 16:27
  memorable villains because honestly, those are two
• 16:34
  different things. True, I'll give you a perfect
• 16:40
  example. OK, I mean I also have an
• 16:42
  example, but go ahead. I would say that in my opinion,
• 16:50
  and this is someone who likes Legend of Korra, I'm going to
• 16:52
  put the shit on the table. I like this show.
• 16:55
  Aman, in my opinion, was not a very good villain, but he was
• 17:00
  very memorable. What makes you say Iman was not
• 17:04
  a good? Iman in my opinion is not a good
• 17:08
  villain because the setting did not facilitate him to beat 1.
• 17:12
  Because the pacing in season 1 is really quick and we don't get
• 17:15
  to see all of the anti Bender propaganda being spread around.
• 17:24
  Right. Like he just kind of shows up,
• 17:25
  says a bunch of shit that never gets backed up and then that's
• 17:29
  more shit. This is the same problem I have
• 17:30
  at Ruby, another show that I really like where they're like
• 17:32
  ah yes the anti faunus sentiment that you never see and it just
• 17:36
  doesn't feel like it has a lot of.
• 17:39
  Weight, you know what I mean? For sure with Cora there's an
• 17:41
  element of, of, of restriction there.
• 17:48
  Well, yeah, because, yeah, there's definitely a situation
• 17:52
  where Aman that you do see him doing like getting the
• 17:58
  revolution going, but it's it's quick and it it doesn't, I
• 18:05
  wouldn't say it gets breezed over, but it it moves by pretty
• 18:08
  fast and they don't have a ton of time to really linger on it.
• 18:12
  So it does kind of feel like he gives one big speech and then
• 18:15
  everyone suddenly hates benders. That is kind of true.
• 18:20
  You're not going to get Corus Lander from me, but I I have to
• 18:24
  call the spade and say that the pacing was not great on Iman's
• 18:27
  like Rise. I mean, I would also, I would
• 18:31
  say funny enough, the new Superman movie, the James Gunn
• 18:34
  Superman people had a similar complaint.
• 18:37
  Yeah, about that one. My, my example that I was going
• 18:42
  to give is Senator Armstrong. Oh yeah, 'cause like, Senator
• 18:47
  Armstrong in Metal Gear Rising is by all accounts, not really a
• 18:51
  good villain. Like, I wouldn't say he's
• 18:53
  particularly well written, and I wouldn't say that he's like that
• 18:59
  well thought out, but he's really, really memorable to the
• 19:03
  point of being an absolute meme machine.
• 19:06
  And it's not, he's not just like he's memorable because he's
• 19:09
  funny, right? Because part of him is how
• 19:12
  fucking just over the top he is, but he is also memorable because
• 19:20
  he's just so. He's like so bombastic and he
• 19:25
  makes such an entrance when he shows up that you just can't
• 19:29
  help but not think about him. Like he fucking kicks the door
• 19:33
  down and just immediately announces his presence with
• 19:36
  fury. Because literally there's only
• 19:37
  one other scene. Like you fight Armstrong in the
• 19:40
  last hour of the game. He's the final boss.
• 19:44
  There's only one other scene in that entire game where he shows
• 19:46
  up, and it's security camera footage.
• 19:49
  So you don't even like the main character.
• 19:51
  Ryden doesn't even talk to him. It's just him watching a video
• 19:55
  of this guy, Senator Armstrong, walking around.
• 19:58
  And Ryden doesn't even really know who he is, who he is.
• 20:00
  He just knows he's AUS senator. Yeah.
• 20:03
  And like he's talking to the other bad guy Sundowner, who
• 20:06
  arguably is the better written villain.
• 20:10
  Oh yeah, absolutely. But Armstrong is really, really
• 20:13
  memorable. Nobody forgets Armstrong.
• 20:15
  I mean, Sundowner, I would say, is also quite memorable.
• 20:17
  But like, yeah, it's kind of a funny situation.
• 20:21
  So I do think that memorable point, memorable versus good.
• 20:25
  Like you could have a villain who's like, kind of stupid, not
• 20:28
  maybe not even that interesting, but they're memorable for XY or
• 20:33
  Z reasons. I mean, I'm going to get into a
• 20:35
  couple of reasons, but yeah, And sometimes, sometimes people
• 20:45
  don't care if the villain's good.
• 20:47
  Sometimes people just want the memorable villain, right?
• 20:50
  Like sometimes it doesn't matter because.
• 20:55
  That's true. That's 100% true.
• 20:57
  I I think. I don't know why, just.
• 20:59
  It because it depends on the media, right?
• 21:01
  Like if you're watching a series or you're, you're experiencing a
• 21:06
  media through the lens of like this is an incredibly well
• 21:11
  crafted story. It's got deep world building.
• 21:15
  You want a good memorable villain, right?
• 21:19
  Like Tywin Lannister in in Game of Thrones is a good a good
• 21:23
  villain and a memorable villain. But in something like Metal Gear
• 21:28
  Rising, for example, you're more interested in the like, not, not
• 21:36
  the spectacle of the game, but like the vibes of the game,
• 21:39
  right? Like it's, it's, it's so
• 21:42
  unabashed anti war rhetoric through the idea of extreme
• 21:46
  ultraviolence that you're like. And it beats you over the head
• 21:50
  with a brick about it. Exactly right.
• 21:52
  Like no subtlety. Exactly what does Metal Gear
• 21:57
  Rising Vengeance have Good writing?
• 21:59
  No, but it did succeed in what it was trying to do, and it
• 22:03
  succeeded through having a Senator of Texas being the
• 22:09
  biggest fucking warmonger in the world's ever seen.
• 22:12
  For the vet. For the virtue of Social
• 22:14
  Darwinism. Yes, for the virtue of social
• 22:18
  fucking. Darwinism.
• 22:20
  I mean, The funny thing, I will say something that I think is
• 22:24
  kind of funny about the idea of does Metal Gear Rising have good
• 22:29
  writing or not? Like it doesn't have
• 22:34
  particularly complex or deep writing, but it's good in a way
• 22:39
  that like it's getting its point across.
• 22:43
  You know what we're trying to do here and, and you're on board
• 22:47
  for it, you know what I mean? So like it's good in that.
• 22:49
  Regard. Yeah.
• 22:51
  I mean, look, it, it's earnest writing.
• 22:53
  It's it's. It's maybe earnest.
• 22:55
  Maybe earnest is the better word.
• 22:56
  Where the writing? Is good, is it's messaging
• 23:00
  right? The idea of like, sometimes you
• 23:04
  need a little violence to stop a, like a lot of violence,
• 23:07
  right? And like, pacifism is good, but
• 23:11
  pacifism to a fault of like, passivity is bad, right?
• 23:14
  Like Ryden's whole thing is, I can't push myself.
• 23:18
  I can't go. Beyond as a tool for justice.
• 23:21
  Yeah, it's like right, Ryden, But like, you're still killing
• 23:25
  people. Maybe you need to just get the
• 23:28
  job done. Something something good soldier
• 23:32
  like. Yeah.
• 23:35
  Yeah, like it. It really leads it to the like
• 23:39
  what is good actually? I mean, it does, it does, yes,
• 23:42
  Which we don't we, we, we don't want to get down that rabbit.
• 23:45
  We're. Explicitly not here for, yeah.
• 23:46
  Well, we're not here for, but also I feel like if we get down
• 23:49
  that, it's an infinite rabbit hole, you know?
• 23:52
  But yeah, so like the idea of the memorability, I also think
• 23:55
  it's worth putting out for a tabletop game.
• 24:00
  Your villain doesn't really need to be good or quote UN quote
• 24:04
  well written. Like you're running the funny
• 24:06
  haha game where you and your friends pretend to be gay elves.
• 24:10
  It it doesn't need to be good, it just needs to be memorable.
• 24:15
  So you talk about it and think about it, You know what I mean?
• 24:17
  Like if you as AGM are really trying to get a message across
• 24:23
  and want to have the like a deeply well written villain,
• 24:25
  then probably just write a book. Right.
• 24:28
  Like this isn't necessarily the medium for that.
• 24:31
  You could use tabletop as a medium to flex ideas.
• 24:34
  But yeah, like at the end of the day, you're still playing the
• 24:39
  funny ha ha theatre game with your random friends.
• 24:42
  It so it doesn't need to it doesn't need an almost can't get
• 24:48
  to that next level. Like maybe I shouldn't say
• 24:52
  can't, but it's it's very difficult to, you know.
• 24:57
  No, yeah, I think it is I because I the the medium of
• 25:01
  role-playing games requires a lot of concession when it comes
• 25:06
  to the story, right. Like you kind of like I'll I'll
• 25:09
  give you a perfect example. You were clearly trying to set
• 25:13
  something up on Monday with with Rod Wolf, like injuring himself
• 25:18
  on the the statue, right. And you set that up and, you
• 25:27
  know, several people in the party were like, Nope, we have
• 25:29
  to solve this now. And while I would say, and I
• 25:33
  probably agree with you that the better storytelling is to just
• 25:35
  let it happen, you kind of have to accept that there is a chance
• 25:39
  that the players are going to be like, no, we are solving this
• 25:42
  shit right? The fuck now, You know what I
• 25:44
  mean? Which as you can probably
• 25:47
  assume, which is why I is Goro was like, put some dirt on it,
• 25:51
  you'll be fine. Like, because I was like, it is
• 25:53
  objectively more interesting to see how this plays out, right?
• 25:57
  And to, you know, kill the suspension, kill the suspense in
• 26:02
  its crib, like right, And it'll it'll, it'll feel cooler if like
• 26:07
  odd wolf is being corrupted and then we have to like chop his
• 26:11
  arm off or something, right? Or you know.
• 26:15
  There's more of a there's more of a drama to it if you, if you
• 26:18
  let it Stew for a bit. Yeah.
• 26:21
  Yeah, I mean it. It's kind of a similar thing to
• 26:25
  when video games have to make narrative concessions to
• 26:28
  justify, you know, like the writers, you know, came up with
• 26:34
  enough story content to have three zones.
• 26:38
  But the, the director was like, yeah, but we need to have 5
• 26:42
  zones to make sure that we like, you know, there's enough content
• 26:45
  in the game. We want to get out to like 20
• 26:47
  hours. So we're probably going to need
• 26:48
  like 5 zones. So can we get like a
• 26:50
  justification to add two more in?
• 26:53
  And inevitably those two zones that get added, even if you as
• 26:58
  the player don't know exactly which 2 they are, you're
• 27:01
  probably going to feel it. You're going to be like, these
• 27:04
  ones aren't as important. Yeah, right.
• 27:07
  It's literally what happened with with Dawn Trail and Final
• 27:10
  Fantasy 14, where two of the zones in the middle kind of feel
• 27:15
  like we're padding this out. Or at least one of the zones,
• 27:18
  maybe I shouldn't say 2, but for sure at least one of the zones
• 27:20
  in the middle of that expansion feel like we're padding out the
• 27:23
  middle section in kind of a weird way here just so they can
• 27:26
  make sure they hit their six zone quota.
• 27:30
  So yeah, it's kind of a similar thing where the narrative
• 27:34
  concessions end up happening a little bit for the sake of the
• 27:38
  medium, because the medium just sort of works a certain kind of
• 27:40
  way. But that doesn't stop you from
• 27:47
  making them be remembered. And that's really the thing
• 27:52
  here. So I'm going to do the I'm, I'm
• 27:57
  going to do the thing that Matt Cole Village jokes about where
• 27:59
  he's like, if I were more, if I were a better YouTube, I
• 28:02
  wouldn't do this, but I don't care.
• 28:03
  So I'm going to do this where I'm going to put the, I'm going
• 28:06
  to put the best advice at the front of the video as opposed to
• 28:08
  the back of the video, which is what you should do, right?
• 28:11
  For retention time. I really think #1 if you want a
• 28:17
  villain to be memorable and last and have impact, they got to
• 28:24
  show up more than once. They just got to like, it's
• 28:31
  really, really hard to have a character, even if even if a
• 28:36
  bunch of other characters talk about this villain, but you
• 28:40
  never, the players never meet them, never see them, never
• 28:43
  interact with them. It's just, there's just no
• 28:49
  emotional attachment. There's no, there's no moment
• 28:53
  there like you need. They just, they got to show up.
• 28:57
  They got to be present. They got to do something.
• 29:00
  They don't have to interact with the players.
• 29:02
  I think this is an important little caveat on this one, but
• 29:05
  they have to show up, right? They have to do something.
• 29:08
  They don't even have to physically.
• 29:09
  I should. I should.
• 29:11
  When I say show up, they don't actually have to even physically
• 29:15
  be there, but they have to show up in their influence.
• 29:21
  You know what I'm saying? Does that make sense?
• 29:23
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 29:24
  You got to feel the villain's fingers on the scale more than
• 29:32
  once. Like it.
• 29:35
  It doesn't. If you, if you have a situation
• 29:38
  where you have a villain at the end of a, you know what a
• 29:45
  dungeon or something like that, and a couple MPCS talk him up
• 29:52
  like, oh, there's the evil lizard king at the end of the
• 29:54
  dungeon. You're going to be like, OK.
• 29:57
  And then the players go through the dungeon, then they eat the
• 29:59
  evil lizard king and then they kill the lizard king at the end
• 30:01
  of the dungeon. He's just not going to stick out
• 30:05
  that much because they didn't have any time to contemplate or
• 30:09
  think about or give a shit about him.
• 30:11
  And also, if they go straight into a fight at the end of the
• 30:13
  dungeon against the boss monster guy, they probably got like 3
• 30:19
  words out of this dude. And so it's just not going to,
• 30:23
  he's just not going to be memorable in that way.
• 30:28
  And if you want him to be memorable, that's when you got
• 30:31
  to start reworking the plan. Now granted, all of this that
• 30:35
  I'm talking about is assuming that you want the villain to be
• 30:38
  memorable. There are times where you just
• 30:39
  throw a villain at your players and you don't care if they
• 30:42
  really remember it or not. It's just kind of a, a, a meat,
• 30:46
  a meat weapon to throw against the players sometimes.
• 30:48
  Like that's fine. So we're kind of operating on
• 30:51
  the assumption that, you know, you're trying to craft a murmal
• 30:54
  villain. But so when I, like I said, when
• 31:01
  I say show up, they don't literally have to show up,
• 31:06
  right? The villain showing up more than
• 31:09
  once can mean a lot of different things, and your type of game is
• 31:15
  really gonna inform this, right? One of the a lot of people will
• 31:25
  talk about their favorite scenes.
• 31:27
  Their favorite cutscenes of Final Fantasy 14 are the
• 31:30
  cutscenes where the Warrior of Light is not present and you're
• 31:32
  just watching the current villain do do villainy shit.
• 31:37
  And part of the reason of that is because it's fun to see like
• 31:41
  what their deal is and learning what the villains deal is, is a
• 31:47
  way to make them memorable. So one option you have in your
• 31:51
  toolbox, and we've been talking about this a lot recently
• 31:54
  because I'm running Fabula and Fabula tells you to do this.
• 31:58
  So ergo, I've been doing it. So ergo, we're talking about it
• 32:00
  a lot. But having those scenes where
• 32:02
  the villain is doing something and the players are not present,
• 32:05
  right? Just a cutaway to be like,
• 32:07
  what's the bad guy up to those that is the villain showing up,
• 32:12
  right? Like he is present, he's on
• 32:13
  screen, quote UN quote, and he's influencing stuff.
• 32:19
  He's influencing what's going on.
• 32:22
  He's not interacting with the player characters, but the
• 32:26
  players are seeing the villain are getting a vibe for the
• 32:30
  villain. There's like a, there's a there
• 32:33
  there and it's, you know, you're laying the bread crumbs.
• 32:41
  Anything you want to add on that one before I continue?
• 32:46
  No, I mean like I, I've got my own example that I was going to
• 32:48
  give it a bit, but like, no, you're good.
• 32:51
  I mean, do you do you want to give it now or do?
• 32:54
  You on the idea of like having a character show up in like?
• 33:05
  Wasn't. I hadn't fully prepared the
• 33:06
  thought yet, but like. OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.
• 33:08
  Well, no, I mean, I can kind of, I mean, I, I have AII can
• 33:11
  continue other potential options for the villain, like showing
• 33:16
  up. I mean, obviously the most
• 33:17
  direct way to do this is to have the villain physically show up,
• 33:24
  right? The players have been hearing
• 33:27
  about the evil wizard for three sessions or whatever, and then
• 33:32
  the evil wizard shows up in town and strolls up on the street and
• 33:36
  is like, oh, hello player characters, how are you doing?
• 33:40
  And starts like taunting them or whatever.
• 33:42
  And the player characters aren't necessarily going to do anything
• 33:45
  because they don't want to like murder a guy in the street in
• 33:48
  broad daylight or whatever. Or or, you know, you, you
• 33:51
  probably, if you are having a villain show up in this
• 33:55
  particular fashion, like they physically stroll up to the
• 33:58
  players, you're probably going to want to make sure that
• 34:00
  there's some kind of narrative reason they don't just
• 34:02
  immediately try to kill him right there.
• 34:04
  Because I'm sure there are plenty of players who will be
• 34:07
  like a little homicide, you say? No problem.
• 34:11
  Violence. I can do violence.
• 34:13
  I could do that. And then just, you know, murder
• 34:15
  a man on the street and then all the people around him are like,
• 34:18
  why did you murder that man? Because of course the the
• 34:20
  civilians don't know that he's a villain.
• 34:23
  But the players are like, no, no, he's the bad guy.
• 34:24
  They're like, well, we don't know that.
• 34:26
  So you're going to jail, you know?
• 34:28
  That is such a a not a unique thing, but the we've definitely
• 34:35
  all been here where where the players are like, don't worry,
• 34:38
  civilian, we're the main characters.
• 34:40
  You're like, yeah, I'm sorry, my guy.
• 34:41
  The civilians don't fucking know that you know the guy.
• 34:44
  Yeah, you don't have a side over your head that says PCs.
• 34:48
  You just murked that guy. That dude is fucking cooked now
• 34:51
  because he. Yeah, yeah.
• 34:53
  And nobody has any context on this situation.
• 34:55
  So you just look real bad. But yeah, that that is an
• 35:03
  obvious and a lot of people, there's lots of different ways
• 35:07
  that people have gone about this.
• 35:08
  But the, the idea of the villain showing up and just directly
• 35:12
  talking to the players in a situation where, you know, the
• 35:16
  players are not just going to fight them is a great tool.
• 35:19
  Like, that's a good one. I mean, the most common way to
• 35:22
  do this, and this is one that Matt, Matt Colville advocates a
• 35:26
  lot for, is have the level 20 bad guy show up when the players
• 35:32
  are level 1, right? Like have homeboy rock up and be
• 35:36
  like, oh, hey, there little little tiny cockroaches, how you
• 35:40
  doing? And then not do anything because
• 35:43
  the villains, like, why would I give a shit about these random
• 35:46
  heroes who think they're hot shit?
• 35:47
  They're not going to do nothing, right?
• 35:48
  And of course, part of that is the villain being, you know,
• 35:52
  hubristic and an arrogant little bastard.
• 35:54
  He's like, well, they can't do anything to me, so I'll just
• 35:56
  leave them alone. Right.
• 35:57
  That's a that's a common villain trope of like, oh, the villain
• 36:01
  could have killed the main character, you know, 20 hours
• 36:04
  ago. Like video games do this all the
• 36:05
  time. The bad, the bad guy could have
• 36:07
  killed the main character 20 hours ago, but they're really,
• 36:09
  really arrogant. So they just elected not to.
• 36:11
  They're like, man, you're a little bitch.
• 36:13
  I don't need to kill you. That's a common, common trope.
• 36:16
  I mean that's basically Zenos whole thing during storm blood
• 36:20
  through 14, right? Like there's literally a point
• 36:23
  where Zenos just beats everyone's ass and he's like, he
• 36:27
  looks at the Warrior of Light. He's like, you put up a nice
• 36:30
  little fight. I'm going to let you live so you
• 36:33
  can come back and fight me again.
• 36:34
  That was kind of fun. And then he just strolls on off
• 36:39
  and of course that ends up not working out his favor or kind of
• 36:42
  does, depending on how you look at it.
• 36:43
  He does kind of get what he wants.
• 36:44
  I'm. Going to say all he wants is a
• 36:47
  run back. He he definitely got that run
• 36:49
  back. Oh, he gets.
• 36:51
  A couple of them, in fact. Yeah, quite a few run backs.
• 36:57
  So like that's a really common way to do it.
• 36:59
  Another option is like I was saying, right, if the villain is
• 37:01
  a is an evil wizard guy, but he's, you know, just a regular
• 37:05
  person, the villain strolls into town and says hi to the players
• 37:10
  in broad daylight. So the player characters are
• 37:11
  like, well shit, we can't just like murder rate this dude right
• 37:15
  here because that's going to look real bad.
• 37:17
  But even though we know he's a bad guy, right?
• 37:19
  That's another common method. I'm a particular fan of
• 37:25
  introduce villain. Put them in a position where
• 37:31
  they can't they like can't fight him.
• 37:33
  So like a perfect example of this.
• 37:35
  Well, that's crazy. That's what I mean about the
• 37:37
  that's what I'm saying. They can't fight them if they
• 37:40
  just show up on the street because there's like a moral
• 37:43
  like, ah, we shouldn't do that kind of thing.
• 37:46
  Oh, I, I, I meant it more in like a, in my campaign, I
• 37:49
  introduced one of my villains and I introduced him way earlier
• 37:53
  before the, the, the alligator guy, because one of my players
• 37:56
  just rolled terribly and I, I, I'm pretty sure she fumble.
• 38:00
  So I, I, I wrote it so that she like destroyed a lot of her, her
• 38:04
  guild's medicine because she was, she broke into the fucking
• 38:06
  medical tent and their boss was like, all right, look, you got
• 38:10
  to do business with this guy. He's a piece of shit.
• 38:12
  Don't trust him as far as you can throw him.
• 38:15
  And I introduced the villain who I I made no bones about how he
• 38:19
  was a villain, but it's like, all right, you you got to sign
• 38:24
  the contract, fam. Like, you're stuck with this guy
• 38:26
  for a while, right? And it was great reintroducing
• 38:30
  him every time. And the characters just, like,
• 38:32
  grinding their teeth, being like, I cannot wait to kill you.
• 38:35
  Yeah, yeah. That's.
• 38:36
  Have to wait on that one though. Yeah, that's exactly the kind of
• 38:40
  thing I'm talking about where you have some kind of
• 38:42
  justification or reason that it just wouldn't, it wouldn't be
• 38:45
  feasible for them to take him out right here, right now.
• 38:49
  Like it just, they just can't for a multitude of reasons.
• 38:54
  It's funny, by the way, I was listening back on the the first
• 38:56
  villains episode we did and you, you brought up that example and
• 38:59
  that one too. Yeah.
• 39:00
  Now look, Gary Olds, I think Gary Olds and and the the other
• 39:04
  villain of that arc, it's probably the best villains I've
• 39:06
  ever written. I'm never going to live up to
• 39:10
  that hype and I just have to accept that.
• 39:13
  It'd be that way sometimes, yeah.
• 39:18
  So you know, other possible options for them showing up, but
• 39:22
  you can't necessarily do anything about it immediately.
• 39:25
  Like actually physically showing up.
• 39:28
  They show up with an entourage, right?
• 39:31
  Like you just can't like they rock up with a whole ass squad
• 39:36
  and the main characters are you know, the PCs are like, we're
• 39:40
  definitely not going to win if we try and throw hands with him
• 39:43
  right now. And then basically the one the
• 39:49
  similar to what Isaiah was saying, the political tension is
• 39:53
  a really good one, right. If the villain is the you know,
• 39:58
  let's go in with the evil wizard.
• 40:00
  If the villain is the grand magical advisor to the
• 40:03
  neighboring Kingdom, right, The players are in Kingdom A and the
• 40:07
  villain is the grand advisor to the king in Kingdom B.
• 40:10
  And then there's like. A party, right?
• 40:13
  There's like a ball that the king from, you know, the king
• 40:16
  from Kingdom A and the king from Kingdom B throw as kind of like
• 40:21
  a, you know, they're trying to make friends.
• 40:23
  It's like an, you know, an ambassador moment.
• 40:25
  We're trying to like ease the tensions.
• 40:27
  So the grand evil wizard dude is present, but if the players just
• 40:31
  start a fight during the ball and try and kill him, that's
• 40:34
  going to go very poorly. Even if they do succeed in
• 40:36
  killing him, that is going to go very poorly for the players.
• 40:38
  So there's like this political tension that they can't, they
• 40:41
  kind of have to just play nice for right now.
• 40:45
  That one's a another classic trope.
• 40:48
  A favorite of mine personally is when you meet them in like a
• 40:51
  really what would normally be a a non tension situation and the
• 40:56
  tension immediately amps up because the villain just strolls
• 40:58
  up like hey there fellow kids. Yes.
• 41:01
  A favorite of mine. You know, it's like the, it's
• 41:05
  like the the situation of main characters are having a
• 41:12
  completely normal conversation and then one of the characters
• 41:17
  just casually puts a gun on the table and then continues
• 41:20
  talking. And it's like, oh, oh, oh,
• 41:24
  things just got a little more awkward all of a sudden.
• 41:26
  I I love things like that. Why you got?
• 41:29
  That there, bud. The it's it's kind of the Pulp
• 41:33
  Fiction. When they shoot the guy on the
• 41:34
  couch, it's like, I'm sorry, is that break your concentration?
• 41:41
  You know what I'm talking. About no, because I haven't.
• 41:43
  Well, yes, because I know the scene is the scene is talked
• 41:46
  about a lot. So like, yes, kind of, but no,
• 41:47
  because I haven't watched Pulp Fiction.
• 41:49
  So the, the, the bit where that, you know, they, they break, they
• 41:51
  break into the apartment, they're talking to that guy
• 41:54
  Brett about the, the briefcase. And as Brett's trying to like,
• 41:58
  talk his way out of the situation, Sam Jackson just
• 42:01
  shoots the guy on the couch and like an act of completely random
• 42:06
  mega violence just throw breath off.
• 42:08
  Yeah. Yeah, and he's like, oh, I'm
• 42:09
  sorry, did I make your concentration?
• 42:12
  Is the dude bleeding out on the couch 'cause he took a nine mil
• 42:14
  to the chest? Nice.
• 42:17
  Yeah, stuff like that. I should go back and watch.
• 42:19
  I should go back and actually watch that movie at some point.
• 42:24
  But yes, that kind of so that that's as a as a slight recap,
• 42:30
  you know, option #1 the villain shows up, quote UN quote via a
• 42:36
  scene that the player characters are not necessarily present for.
• 42:40
  Option 2, the villain actually physically shows up and engages
• 42:44
  with the player characters in a non violent situation, in a
• 42:48
  situation where they can't just go straight to murder hoboing
• 42:51
  because that's always what players want to do.
• 42:53
  Obviously option #3 is the villain shows up through their
• 43:03
  through their through their minions, through their people,
• 43:06
  through their connections, right?
• 43:09
  If you have a villain who's, you know, maybe the villains like
• 43:14
  some nobleman of the Kingdom that the player characters live
• 43:18
  in and they can't get access to him because they're not
• 43:23
  nobility. They're just Guy Mcdudes.
• 43:24
  They're murder hobos. You know, maybe by the end of
• 43:27
  the game that might be different, but at least at the
• 43:29
  beginning and so they don't see or interact with the villain,
• 43:34
  but they constantly run into problems that the villain is
• 43:37
  causing via his connections, so or her connections or their
• 43:43
  connections, anything in between really.
• 43:48
  So like, for example, the villain, you know, again, going
• 43:54
  with the high noble, you know, the the nobleman angle, there's
• 43:59
  a situation where the local town guard need the players help with
• 44:05
  something, blah, blah, blah. This one gang has been getting
• 44:07
  really out of hand. Blah, blah, blah, do that arc,
• 44:11
  do that adventure. Turns out, Oh, this gang that
• 44:14
  suddenly started to, you know, get more territory and cause
• 44:18
  trouble is because the villain was funding them, right?
• 44:21
  Like they were getting help from this nobleman.
• 44:24
  And then the players are like, Ah, OK, so now we have a name.
• 44:27
  And now it like his presence is felt.
• 44:29
  And then again down the road, there's some string of, you
• 44:35
  know, I don't know, there's some string of murders that happens.
• 44:37
  Turns out the villain, you know, summoned a demon and is having
• 44:41
  the demon kill people on his behalf for some sort of evil
• 44:44
  plan. And then further down the road,
• 44:47
  oh, turns out he's employing people to work on this evil
• 44:50
  ritual thing that he's trying to do to eventually take over the
• 44:54
  Kingdom completely. You know, like continually
• 44:56
  having like other characters tied to the villain connect into
• 45:02
  them. And then, you know, maybe the
• 45:04
  other. And then also maybe those, those
• 45:07
  minions of the villain have a picture of the villain.
• 45:11
  Maybe they have a note written by the villain so the players
• 45:14
  can hear some stuff from in, you know, in the villain's words.
• 45:17
  Maybe they maybe the villain gets described and then the
• 45:20
  players see him from a distance in another scenario, right.
• 45:23
  So again, not necessarily direct interaction, but the villain is
• 45:28
  still showing up, quote UN quote.
• 45:31
  There's still a presence, there's still a feeling.
• 45:34
  And that will again, going back to our our core thesis
• 45:37
  statement, he'll that will help to make them memorable because
• 45:40
  the players are like, be like, God damn it, this Jackass, Baron
• 45:44
  Von Diggily Deutsch, we keep hearing his fucking name over
• 45:47
  and over again. He keeps causing all these
• 45:48
  fucking problems. Basically that that method is
• 45:54
  the is the JoJo Part 3 maneuver where just everything is Dio's
• 45:59
  fault. That's kind of what I had going
• 46:02
  in my first campaign as well. The, the, the, the big villain
• 46:05
  of the first arc, other than Alligator Man was the like
• 46:09
  bandit king thing. And essentially the way I did it
• 46:13
  was in the, in the one shot that preceded the campaign by about
• 46:18
  two years. I was like, ah, yeah, we're
• 46:20
  getting like unusual bandit activity, like they're, they're
• 46:23
  getting more organized. It's a little distressing.
• 46:25
  And even at the start of the campaign, I brought that back up
• 46:30
  being like, well, you know, you guys have to go do this thing
• 46:33
  because there's for some reason higher bandit activity.
• 46:36
  And the players were like, oh, OK, that's whatever.
• 46:38
  And they did their first big mission where they got to like,
• 46:40
  you know, the giant moving city like Allah immortal engines
• 46:43
  thing. They they fight off a subset of
• 46:48
  that bandit army And the like leader of one of the bandit
• 46:50
  clans is like, oh, we got an army coming.
• 46:52
  We have a master of chains. He's going to do all this crazy
• 46:54
  shit and the players are like, oh, that's distressing, but they
• 46:59
  don't really do anything about it.
• 47:00
  And they get really wrapped up in doing the the gharial stuff,
• 47:03
  right. And because they get so wrapped
• 47:04
  up and then that they're not keeping track of the bandit
• 47:06
  stuff via the optional missions. Then when that guy kicks their
• 47:11
  door in and kills one of their buddies and as the fight is
• 47:15
  ending, they see this guy like covered in chains and like this
• 47:18
  big metal helmet. They're like oh, it was that was
• 47:21
  that's that guy. Oh shit, that's the guy.
• 47:24
  They hit you with the surprise Pikachu face when their friend
• 47:27
  dies, Yeah. So they were like, oh, that's
• 47:29
  that guy. Oh shit.
• 47:31
  And then they they do all this stuff, they launch a raid, they
• 47:36
  end up helping kill that guy. And then they find out that it's
• 47:41
  actually not that guy. That guy is a body double, and
• 47:45
  the real guy is is bringing an army down from the north.
• 47:49
  And they're like, oh, my God, it was a good time.
• 47:54
  Yep. Yep.
• 47:55
  Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, it's
• 47:57
  exactly that. I mean, as much as I have my
• 48:00
  complaints about actually, you know, you know what?
• 48:02
  Here, let's not, let's not shit on JoJo Part 3.
• 48:04
  Let's, let's talk about a JoJo part I like a lot.
• 48:06
  Let's talk about Part 6 instead, OK?
• 48:09
  Right. The reason I think Poochie is so
• 48:12
  good and probably the best villain in JoJo.
• 48:15
  My personal in my personal opinion is because Poochie is
• 48:19
  just ever present through the entirety of Part 6, and it's
• 48:23
  because the main character is in a prison and the main villain is
• 48:29
  the guy who runs the fucking prison.
• 48:31
  So he's you, you just, you feel him all the time.
• 48:35
  You're like constantly putting up with his bullshit.
• 48:37
  He also makes an excellent entrance at the beginning of the
• 48:40
  show when he fucks up the main character's dad, right.
• 48:43
  Which is like a really good oh shit, this guy's got a big Dick
• 48:46
  energy. So like that kind of a vibe.
• 48:51
  Yeah, like that's exactly what I'm talking about.
• 48:52
  Like you're the the feeling their presence the whole time
• 48:56
  show the villain showing up more than once can mean any of those
• 49:01
  things, but they got to show up in some sense.
• 49:04
  Their presence must be known. But you know, that's all well
• 49:13
  and good when you're talking about a villain that you planned
• 49:16
  out. What about the surprise
• 49:19
  villains? Sometimes you really just got to
• 49:24
  roll with the surprise villain. You might not have expected
• 49:29
  random NPC Jim to become a really memorable villain, but
• 49:32
  sometimes they just will be. And I think there's a there's a
• 49:36
  certain there's a muscle as AGM that you really got to train
• 49:42
  that when you sniff it, you know, when when you get a whiff
• 49:48
  of that surprise villain is is starting to be born.
• 49:53
  You got to you just got to jump on it as quick as you can.
• 49:55
  You know what I mean? Yeah, I I call it the pivot.
• 49:58
  Like you have character pivot thought was Guy Mcdood and you
• 50:02
  weren't planning on him being the villain and you had a cooler
• 50:05
  villain in mind, but the players are really attached to that
• 50:06
  villain. You got to pivot.
• 50:09
  You got to make him make it so he was the real mastermind the
• 50:12
  whole time and he was just moonlighting as a minion or
• 50:15
  doesn't matter how you have to justify it, you got to pivot.
• 50:18
  You got to you got to latch on to that opportunity because
• 50:23
  effectively your players are giving you a golden ticket that
• 50:26
  says we're interested in this thingy, do more of this and you
• 50:30
  got to take that ticket and go, all right, we're doing more of
• 50:32
  that. You got to punch that sucker
• 50:34
  quick. I do think it's worth mentioning
• 50:38
  that doesn't necessarily mean you have to throw out your
• 50:40
  original plan. It just means you need to rework
• 50:44
  the plan in such a way that the surprise villain fits in better.
• 50:49
  Right. OK, I didn't think you as the
• 50:52
  GM, you have a, a, a boss of a dungeon and for whatever reason
• 50:59
  the players go to fight this dungeon boss and they get their
• 51:02
  ass beat right? Like you didn't think they were
• 51:05
  gonna. But for whatever reason they get
• 51:07
  their shit rocked in that fight. And then you as the GM are like,
• 51:12
  oh, OK, well, I wasn't planning on them, like, getting, you
• 51:17
  know, whopped here. I'm gonna have the villain pull
• 51:21
  out or not kill them for some reason, right?
• 51:24
  Like, I'm gonna have him kind of pull back.
• 51:27
  And in that moment, if you do that, if the players get their
• 51:33
  ass beat by the dungeon boss and then the dungeon boss is like,
• 51:36
  you know what? I'm done with you silly little
• 51:39
  mortals. I have better things to do.
• 51:40
  And then leaves. And then the player's response
• 51:43
  is, oh, we're going to get that motherfucker.
• 51:46
  Oh, I swear to God, we're going to get his ass.
• 51:48
  Then you as the GM immediately have to go, OK, I was going to
• 51:53
  just get rid of him. I'm not getting rid of him
• 51:55
  anymore. He needs to stick around now.
• 51:56
  Whatever I got to do, he's got to stick around, right?
• 51:58
  OK, so I got a question for you. Was was that reaction me with my
• 52:02
  my desire for salty run backs on rebellion?
• 52:05
  Yeah. Oh yeah, 100% yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:09
  'Cause the second he killed my character, I was like, oh, you
• 52:11
  mother. Coming back, yeah.
• 52:14
  Yeah, yeah, I think you're for literal salty run backs.
• 52:17
  Rebellion. Rebellion for me really was like
• 52:20
  the penultimate or not the the perfect example of this because
• 52:26
  I just totally misused the word penultimate there.
• 52:28
  Yeah, penultimate is the the one before the ultimate.
• 52:31
  Yeah, yeah, I, I don't know why. Anyway, yeah, it it because he
• 52:38
  he's he's the perfect example because you as players engaged
• 52:42
  this character that I was like, OK, my original idea with
• 52:46
  Rebellion was to sort of to seed a plot hook or, or maybe not
• 52:55
  even a plot hook. AAI was sort of giving you guys
• 53:00
  some world building context via mission, right?
• 53:04
  Because for me personally, as AGMI, always, if I do a bunch of
• 53:11
  world building stuff, right, if I write up a bunch of shit, I in
• 53:17
  my objective is to my objective is to contextualize as much of
• 53:24
  that world building shit as I possibly can with stuff that I'm
• 53:27
  going to have the players actively do, right?
• 53:32
  So I was kind of setting up with rebellion.
• 53:35
  I was like, I'm going to show the players that there's a bit
• 53:39
  of like a class disparity problem going on in this city,
• 53:43
  right? There's a, there's an issue of
• 53:47
  the, the city touts itself as being really, really fair, but
• 53:52
  it actually has this monetary and racism problem that they're
• 53:57
  kind of just ignoring. And rebellion is like a symptom
• 54:00
  of that, right? But when the fight happened, he,
• 54:07
  he like you just, you know, like you said, he killed your
• 54:09
  character. And then by extension, he also
• 54:15
  sort of, he just kind of shocked the group.
• 54:18
  So I was like, OK, I'm going to have him run away now because he
• 54:23
  has the, you know, the ability to get out of here.
• 54:25
  I'm going to have him get out of here.
• 54:28
  He, my initial thought was I'll keep him on the back burner as
• 54:34
  like maybe a something. But then as that session went on
• 54:38
  and then concluded, I could clearly tell I was like, oh, the
• 54:41
  players are kind of invested in this moment that happened
• 54:44
  because it kind of shocked everyone, right?
• 54:46
  It shocked me as AGM 'cause I, I didn't expect it to happen the
• 54:50
  way it did and it kind of threw you guys off as players.
• 54:53
  So I was like, oh, OK, let me latch on to this.
• 54:56
  And I got to figure out a way to make him more important.
• 54:59
  And so I did. I just, I, I kind of ramped up
• 55:03
  his importance because his original objective, his original
• 55:06
  position as like a character was just going to be kind of a shit
• 55:09
  disturber, but not necessarily a major mover and shaker.
• 55:13
  I was like, all right, he is now levelled up to major mover and
• 55:16
  shaker. He's ranked rank increase.
• 55:20
  And then by extension of that, I was like, all right, well, if
• 55:24
  I'm going to take the time to to really flesh him out more, I
• 55:29
  need to have a justification for why the players are going to
• 55:31
  hang around him a little bit more.
• 55:33
  And that's where I came up with the whole idea of going into the
• 55:38
  going into that. What did, what did I call it?
• 55:41
  What did I call it? The other dimension the the.
• 55:46
  Oh God. What did I call it?
• 55:49
  Fuck I. Don't remember I.
• 55:50
  Don't remember either, but you know what I'm talking about.
• 55:52
  That was where I came up with the idea of of one of your
• 55:54
  characters traveling around with him in this other dimension,
• 55:58
  putting you in a situation where you have to cooperate with him,
• 56:00
  otherwise you're screwed. That was where that idea kind of
• 56:04
  was birthed out of, because I was like, all right, well, if
• 56:08
  I'm going to put in all this effort, I need to kind of extend
• 56:14
  like his importance needs to feel worth it, so I need to do
• 56:18
  more with it. The Mannatide, that's what I
• 56:20
  call it. I need to like, do more with
• 56:25
  him. And so, yeah, basically it was
• 56:28
  this. He was a surprise villain to me.
• 56:32
  Like he was a surprise to me because I didn't expect the
• 56:36
  reaction I got, but the reaction worked.
• 56:42
  And so I was like, OK. And then I latched onto it
• 56:45
  basically as fast as I've as fast as humanly possible.
• 56:50
  And yeah, so that was why Rebellion turned into a thing.
• 56:53
  And he was only a villain for a short period of time, to be
• 56:58
  honest, because I ended up just making him a good guy later.
• 57:07
  Yeah. But that's because I kind of
• 57:10
  felt like I just felt like it made sense in that way that that
• 57:15
  you guys as players kind of were putting the work in.
• 57:18
  So it just kind of fit to have him become a good guy.
• 57:23
  Yep, I so I had the exact same thing happening in my campaign,
• 57:28
  in my first campaign where I had this idea for like a boss fight
• 57:33
  and like it was, it was an important boss fight generally
• 57:36
  speaking to Gennaro's character and it was going to be like a
• 57:40
  quick fast they fight him, maybe they can convince him to be a
• 57:45
  good guy. It was his brother.
• 57:48
  Yes, I remember you talking about this.
• 57:49
  Yeah. And not only was Gennaro
• 57:53
  immediately like bro I met you 2 weeks ago, but I will fuck your
• 57:58
  entire shit up. But I don't want to, I really
• 58:02
  don't want to. Please don't put me in this
• 58:04
  position. Like obviously his character
• 58:09
  made a much better argument than that but right Right.
• 58:13
  Because RIP cared so much in that moment about like getting
• 58:18
  through to his brother. I was like, OK, I wasn't
• 58:21
  intending for this to be a thing he can roll on, but there really
• 58:27
  is no other better place for this.
• 58:30
  And like, I can't just, I can't just throw out this really good
• 58:36
  role play, right? Like if I don't reward this then
• 58:38
  what's the point? Right, right, right.
• 58:40
  You got to do something with it. Yeah, so I let him roll on it
• 58:43
  and he rolls like Paladin's dice.
• 58:47
  Curse always will be. He gets absolute dog shit rolls
• 58:50
  until he needs it. The absolute he needs.
• 58:52
  It really bad. And then he becomes a God of
• 58:55
  dice. Yeah, Yeah.
• 58:56
  And he rolled like, a 24 or whatever, and he needed a 23 to
• 59:00
  succeed. And I was like, fuck, yeah, fuck
• 59:02
  it. You really?
• 59:02
  God damn. I got God damn, God damn.
• 59:06
  Yeah. And even then it was cool
• 59:11
  because, you know, he was friendly to the players, but he
• 59:15
  was still ultimately working with one of the big bads.
• 59:19
  And just because the players were cool with him doesn't mean
• 59:22
  that their boss or society or all the other guilds or even
• 59:27
  like the party's friends, right? Like they were all like, look, I
• 59:31
  guess this is your brother, but fuck this guy.
• 59:33
  Like what are? We doing He did some fuck shit
• 59:35
  man. Yeah.
• 59:38
  And then ultimately it was, it was really cool to see that, you
• 59:42
  know, he was like, OK, look, I'm going to go undercover.
• 59:44
  You're just going to have to trust that I'm not going to sell
• 59:47
  you all out like you're just going to have to give me that on
• 59:50
  faith. And if I'm right or you're
• 59:53
  right, if you, if you're right and you give me this on faith
• 59:55
  and it all goes according to plan, then I can lowball the
• 1:00:00
  numbers of your group to my boss.
• 1:00:03
  And maybe, hopefully, he will. He'll get cocky.
• 1:00:08
  Yeah, he'll under commit his forces, but you really got to
• 1:00:11
  take it on faith. And RIP was able RIP and the
• 1:00:14
  party were like, look, yeah, he tried to stab at the back.
• 1:00:16
  But he's been helped with us since then and he's fed us
• 1:00:19
  everything we've asked. Any piece of information we got,
• 1:00:22
  he just gives it freely. Like that's got to be worth
• 1:00:24
  something. And yeah, like eventually, like
• 1:00:28
  they bought it. He got betrayed by like the evil
• 1:00:32
  bandit king and like they killed half his crew, which was
• 1:00:34
  interesting to see. Like people they were just
• 1:00:36
  starting to like half of them just die horribly.
• 1:00:39
  But you know, like the whole heads mounted to spikes thing
• 1:00:41
  and they're like. Yeah, that's cool.
• 1:00:48
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:00:48
  I mean it knowing when to sniff out that that opportunity and
• 1:00:53
  latch onto it, like I said, it is a muscle you have to train.
• 1:00:58
  And definitely early GMs in particular are absolutely going
• 1:01:03
  to miss those moments and you're going to be disappointed.
• 1:01:07
  But use those moments that you missed as good lesson to be
• 1:01:11
  like, oh, OK, I should have done that here.
• 1:01:17
  And in terms of going back to our thesis statement of making
• 1:01:21
  your villains memorable, the surprise villain is is pretty
• 1:01:25
  much memorable by default, right?
• 1:01:27
  Because something happened where that character was not intended
• 1:01:35
  to be a big deal, and then the events of the game made them a
• 1:01:39
  big deal. And the fact that they were made
• 1:01:41
  into a big deal by a random event is just automatically
• 1:01:45
  kicks them into that echelon of being memorable.
• 1:01:48
  Like pretty much for free. And unfortunately, the one thing
• 1:01:55
  that really sucks about the surprise villain situation is
• 1:01:58
  you as AGM can't plan for it because it's a surprise to you,
• 1:02:03
  right? Like, yeah, it's not just a
• 1:02:06
  surprise for the players, it's also a surprise for you as the
• 1:02:09
  GM because it was not your original intention.
• 1:02:12
  So unfortunately, you can't bank on it.
• 1:02:15
  But it does kind of almost always happen.
• 1:02:20
  So as long as you're looking out for it, usually you can
• 1:02:24
  capitalize on it. It you know, it's funny that you
• 1:02:27
  say that because it is happening right now.
• 1:02:29
  There was for Sippy story, Yeah, for her, like, personal stuff.
• 1:02:35
  I had written initially a different character and she
• 1:02:38
  doesn't listen to the podcast, so it's fine.
• 1:02:40
  It was going to be her cousin, right?
• 1:02:42
  Who, like, got her sister killed out of an act of like,
• 1:02:45
  selfishness being basically being like, I'm not going down
• 1:02:47
  there. That's a fucking death trap.
• 1:02:48
  She's going to have to die on her own, right.
• 1:02:51
  But she got really attached to the internal mechanics of her
• 1:02:55
  own royal house and like the backstabbing and like the Dune
• 1:02:59
  esque, you know, plans within plans, right?
• 1:03:04
  So I was like, oh, it'll be more interesting rather than it just
• 1:03:09
  be a boring old like I just didn't want to do it.
• 1:03:11
  You know what I mean to it was a targeted thing to like make way
• 1:03:17
  for personal political machination.
• 1:03:21
  And it's all because she, like, got really attached to the the
• 1:03:24
  military command structure from her home by her own planet.
• 1:03:29
  And she hates them. Like, and she, like, she loves
• 1:03:30
  to hate them, but her character hates them.
• 1:03:32
  I was like, well, I got to. I have to make them more
• 1:03:35
  culpable because if they're just guys, if they're just like, good
• 1:03:40
  soldiers and like, like, yeah. If there's not enough of a
• 1:03:42
  reason to hate them. Yeah, right.
• 1:03:44
  Like sometimes the mix, the a mix up is good.
• 1:03:47
  Sometimes it's like, Oh no, actually we were just as
• 1:03:49
  innocent as you were in this. We're just as confused as you
• 1:03:52
  are, but there's got to be a payoff, right?
• 1:03:58
  Like if they were innocent, someone else in the organization
• 1:04:02
  was guilty. It can't just be they were
• 1:04:06
  innocent and nothing, right? Right, right.
• 1:04:11
  You have to be willing and ready to understand that.
• 1:04:14
  Like you're not writing a book. All that prep you did?
• 1:04:18
  Sometimes you got to just. Like.
• 1:04:24
  Sometimes you got to hit the mean pivot.
• 1:04:29
  Yeah, you may not want to. I mean, I didn't.
• 1:04:33
  It's sort of it's sort of kind of happened with with Baron
• 1:04:36
  focus in the fabulous game too, where?
• 1:04:39
  I had a feeling. I mean, it's not exactly the
• 1:04:42
  same situation, right? Because I did intend for him to
• 1:04:45
  be a villain and I did intend to him for him to kind of get
• 1:04:49
  under, under you, you, you know, your skin as players.
• 1:04:52
  But the degree, the degree to which he bothered you guys as
• 1:04:59
  players is the part that I didn't quite expect.
• 1:05:02
  You know what I mean? Like, for whatever reason,
• 1:05:05
  however I framed the situation, you guys as players really
• 1:05:11
  latched on to hating him more than I expected.
• 1:05:16
  And because you latched onto it so hard, I was kind of like, all
• 1:05:22
  right, I got to keep this in the back of my pocket.
• 1:05:25
  And I was and I wasn't sure. I was like, I don't know how I'm
• 1:05:30
  going to use him or what I'm going to do with it, but I'm
• 1:05:32
  like, I have to do something. So I just kind of left myself a
• 1:05:36
  note and was like, I'll think about it.
• 1:05:39
  And then I just saw the opportunity with the lich
• 1:05:43
  situation and I was like, ah, yeah, this will work.
• 1:05:48
  And it just, yeah, again, I just, I just capitalized on it.
• 1:05:54
  But like I said, I did intend for him to be a a villain, but
• 1:05:59
  the degree, the degree of villain, the degree of like, oh,
• 1:06:03
  fuck this guy. I was, I was surprised by.
• 1:06:07
  So I guess the lesson there is sometimes the sometimes the
• 1:06:13
  surprise will come from a little bit of an unexpected angle
• 1:06:18
  because again, you you can come up with all sorts of cool ideas
• 1:06:26
  as AGM and then your players just get really attached to
• 1:06:30
  scribble open below the goblin dingalow and just you just got
• 1:06:34
  to go with it. You know what I mean?
• 1:06:35
  Like, yeah, all this effort you put into crafting them, this
• 1:06:39
  amazing half Angel NPC who's a daughter of a chosen one who you
• 1:06:45
  really thought they were going to care about.
• 1:06:46
  And they're like, no, we like the goblin better.
• 1:06:48
  Then you got to go. All right, the goblins important
• 1:06:50
  now. Oh yeah dude, neat eyes they say
• 1:06:54
  more than fucking Barker like. Right.
• 1:06:56
  Yeah, yeah, it's the same. Thing random NPC bandit I was
• 1:07:00
  ready for them to slit the throat of became their their
• 1:07:03
  best buddy and frankly turned it to APC in his own right in a
• 1:07:09
  different campaign like. Yep, Yep.
• 1:07:15
  Yeah. Those, those golden moments, you
• 1:07:17
  really got to seize them when they when they present
• 1:07:19
  themselves. Julia All right.
• 1:07:25
  So then, you know, extension of that.
• 1:07:28
  So we have you want to make sure the villain shows up more than
• 1:07:32
  once. If you have a villain who
• 1:07:35
  catches you by surprise as AGM and ends up being more relevant
• 1:07:39
  than you thought, you know, seize the moment.
• 1:07:44
  If you're operating with your your, your intended villain and
• 1:07:50
  it's working and the players are are hating them the way they
• 1:07:54
  should, sometimes, not even sometimes having the villain get
• 1:08:04
  away and reappear multiple times, it might cause some
• 1:08:10
  player annoyance. It will cause frustration
• 1:08:13
  probably, but it's really worth it in the end.
• 1:08:18
  Like most of the time, usually, usually there are exceptions
• 1:08:26
  having that villain like the players fight him or or engage
• 1:08:30
  with him in some way and or them and the villain gets away.
• 1:08:36
  Now get get away could mean a lot of things, right?
• 1:08:38
  I'm not I'm not only talking about a fight necessarily, but
• 1:08:41
  it a fight is the most common scenario, but the villain gets
• 1:08:44
  away after the players have engaged them somehow.
• 1:08:49
  Like doing that a few times. It it's probably worth it.
• 1:08:55
  Even if in the moment your players seem a little mad, seem
• 1:08:58
  a little pissy, it's OK. It's probably still worth it
• 1:09:01
  because when they show back up, it's going to be such a great
• 1:09:07
  response of like, oh, that motherfucker, you know what I
• 1:09:10
  mean? Like it's really, it's really
• 1:09:13
  hard to argue with that, that that sensation, that feeling of
• 1:09:16
  like, oh, this son of a bitch is back.
• 1:09:19
  You know what I mean? The As Isaiah puts it, the urge
• 1:09:23
  for the salty run back is strong.
• 1:09:26
  It is. And like there, there are right
• 1:09:28
  and wrong ways of doing right because you there are ways that
• 1:09:32
  you can achieve it. And the players aren't salt.
• 1:09:35
  Like the characters are salty, but the players are not.
• 1:09:39
  Yeah, you know, if the, if the the bad guy has the like, you
• 1:09:45
  know, portal opens up beneath him and blips away, that can
• 1:09:50
  work. But doing it the way that that
• 1:09:52
  Josh did it, where we killed that guy, that dude fucking died
• 1:09:56
  and was resurrected. That feels better because it
• 1:10:03
  doesn't feel like we failed. It feels like he wants the salty
• 1:10:07
  run back and now we want the run back in return, right?
• 1:10:11
  It it feels like a yeah, it feels like a change in the game
• 1:10:14
  state also like so just to give the full context, what I say is
• 1:10:17
  talking about here, the character Baron Focus in our
• 1:10:21
  fabulous campaign, the first time the players fought him,
• 1:10:24
  they fought him and then he escaped.
• 1:10:27
  In Fabulous Ultima the villains have a a resource called Ultima
• 1:10:30
  Points and one of the things they can do with an Ultima point
• 1:10:33
  is escape a scene no matter what.
• 1:10:37
  So that first time they fought him, he did escape straight up
• 1:10:40
  and then they re engaged him like one or two sessions later
• 1:10:46
  and they killed him. They have then they have since
• 1:10:51
  recently seen him again because he was resurrected as a vampire
• 1:10:56
  by a lich. And yeah, it it, it doesn't feel
• 1:11:02
  like a failure on the player's part because they did do the
• 1:11:05
  thing. And it also, it changes the
• 1:11:09
  status quo. You know, the villain just kind
• 1:11:12
  of disappearing doesn't necessarily change things very
• 1:11:15
  much. The villain coming back because
• 1:11:17
  of some sort of weird evil necromancy.
• 1:11:19
  You're sort of establishing new things, right?
• 1:11:22
  You're keeping the momentum moving forward.
• 1:11:24
  You're changing what's going on. But I will say, sometimes just
• 1:11:30
  having them run away is also totally valid.
• 1:11:32
  Like they get away and then they show back up and like it is what
• 1:11:36
  it is. You know what I mean?
• 1:11:37
  Like because the ultimately what you're doing is letting your
• 1:11:45
  players get attached and getting attached is then then makes that
• 1:11:50
  final victory like the sweeter one.
• 1:11:55
  But you do have to. The trick is you do have to give
• 1:12:00
  them the final victory at some point, right?
• 1:12:04
  You can't deny it eternally 'cause that it's true.
• 1:12:09
  Doesn't so. Someone to keep track of.
• 1:12:11
  It doesn't feel great. Like yes, you sometimes you can
• 1:12:15
  have your your character run away, but it has to feel earned,
• 1:12:22
  right? And like fabulous, you would
• 1:12:24
  literally get a resource that lets your character, some of
• 1:12:27
  your villains run away. But the game also says don't
• 1:12:30
  have every villain run away, right?
• 1:12:34
  Like have when you have when you find villains that that you
• 1:12:37
  think work, have them come back. But not every villain and or
• 1:12:41
  should be a recurring villain, right?
• 1:12:43
  Because then there's no point. And not every villain's worth
• 1:12:46
  it. Yeah, like if you can tell that
• 1:12:50
  the players were not that attached, not that invested in
• 1:12:57
  that particular villain, then yeah, it's probably not worth it
• 1:13:02
  to have them pull the runaway manoeuvre because they're just
• 1:13:07
  not when they show back up, it's not going to, it's not going to
• 1:13:11
  hit, you know, like you need them when they reappear.
• 1:13:16
  You need them to really like they need to feel it, you know,
• 1:13:21
  like it needs to it needs to feel like it needs like a pay.
• 1:13:28
  It needs a sense of pay off. I guess is is really the the way
• 1:13:31
  to phrase it because if it's a villain they were not initially
• 1:13:37
  that attached to and then they just and then they run away and
• 1:13:41
  then they reappear instead of feeling like Ah, finally our
• 1:13:46
  rematch. Your players are going to be
• 1:13:48
  like, ah, this Jackass again, Great, fantastic.
• 1:13:51
  You know, like the response you want is yes, an honorable
• 1:13:55
  rematch. The response you don't want is
• 1:13:58
  this motherfucker again. Seriously, right, That's bad,
• 1:14:04
  right? Part of the part of the reason,
• 1:14:07
  part of the reason that the and I, I try, I, I try not to be MCU
• 1:14:14
  pilled all the time and constantly reference the MCU,
• 1:14:16
  but it's it's a good example in this case.
• 1:14:18
  So whatever part of the reason the fight and end game between
• 1:14:22
  Captain America and Thanos feels so fucking good is because when
• 1:14:25
  Thanos beat Caps ass and then got away, when he comes back in
• 1:14:31
  end game, there's that feeling of like, oh, we're going to
• 1:14:34
  settle the score this time, motherfucker.
• 1:14:35
  Like, you know, there's that sensation of satisfaction and
• 1:14:39
  the reason there's that feeling of satisfaction is because
• 1:14:42
  Thanos got an entire movie for you to give a shit about this
• 1:14:46
  guy, right? Because Infinity War really is
• 1:14:48
  the Thanos movie. Thanos is the main character of
• 1:14:51
  that movie. You got a whole ass movie to
• 1:14:53
  give a shit about him. So when he rolls back around an
• 1:14:56
  end game, you're like locked in, you're latched on, you're
• 1:15:00
  invested. That's also why side note, when
• 1:15:04
  Thor, I mean spoilers for end game, I guess, but like when
• 1:15:08
  Thor kills him in the very beginning, part of the reason
• 1:15:11
  that doesn't feel good is because Thanos just kind of gave
• 1:15:16
  up, right? He didn't.
• 1:15:18
  He wasn't really being a villain in that moment.
• 1:15:21
  He wasn't trying to do anything. He just kind of let it happen.
• 1:15:24
  And so there's this sense of like dissatisfaction.
• 1:15:27
  So when he's back to villain mode at the very end of the
• 1:15:29
  movie, you're like, ah, yes, now the proper throw down that we
• 1:15:33
  should have had. That's the feeling you want to
• 1:15:36
  hit. And again, lot easier done in a
• 1:15:40
  movie or a book, obviously, because the author can control
• 1:15:43
  these things. But that's what you want to aim
• 1:15:47
  for in a tabletop sense. Whatever you got to do to try
• 1:15:49
  and make that happen, go for it. And sometimes the game will help
• 1:15:55
  you, right? Some games will give you
• 1:15:57
  mechanics or or methods or just general advice on how you can do
• 1:16:04
  that sort of thing. But sometimes the game won't
• 1:16:06
  help you and you know, like DND does not help you with this
• 1:16:09
  problem. So you got to kind of figure out
• 1:16:11
  how you want to go about it yourself.
• 1:16:14
  But you know, take the time to really think about how you're
• 1:16:19
  going to do it like the that planning that upfront strategy
• 1:16:25
  investment is worth it. And again, it's OK if your
• 1:16:32
  players are a little annoyed at you when the villain does run
• 1:16:35
  away. They can be a little mad.
• 1:16:37
  That's OK, Let them let them Stew a little.
• 1:16:39
  You can let them Stew, that's OK.
• 1:16:43
  A little a little Stew and never hurt nobody, I guess.
• 1:16:51
  Yeah. I mean, like, yeah.
• 1:16:54
  The I get the the secret is don't let them Stew too long, I
• 1:16:57
  guess. Or too much.
• 1:16:59
  Yeah, I mean. The the, the big thing is like
• 1:17:02
  if, if characters are, if players are a little mad, that
• 1:17:05
  means they care, but if characters are like over it mad,
• 1:17:10
  like dude, what the fuck? You know what I mean?
• 1:17:11
  Like that's just never gone too far.
• 1:17:13
  Yeah, don't, don't overcook your Stew.
• 1:17:17
  Cook it low and slow, yes, you know, forward.
• 1:17:24
  And then my last big one for really making that memorable
• 1:17:28
  villain. And I think everyone kind of
• 1:17:30
  knows this one, but I still think it's worth bringing up
• 1:17:32
  either way. Your villain needs a big
• 1:17:35
  personality element or or thing about them that stands out.
• 1:17:40
  They need something that makes you think about them with with a
• 1:17:45
  singular mention of that trait. The classic example for me
• 1:17:50
  personally, the one that popped into my brain is Darth Vader's
• 1:17:54
  voice, right. You hear that breathing sound
• 1:18:00
  and you hear that like low James Earl Jones, you know, fucking.
• 1:18:05
  I'm not going to say what I was about to say, but James Earl
• 1:18:11
  Jones voice, you know, yeah, I, I don't know, it's fine.
• 1:18:17
  James Earl Jones voice. And with that breathing
• 1:18:21
  apparatus noise, you hear that breathing sound and you're
• 1:18:25
  instantly like, ah, shit, Darth Vader, right?
• 1:18:27
  Like there's no, there's no ambiguity who it is or who
• 1:18:32
  you're thinking about. You immediately think of Darth
• 1:18:34
  Vader and you can hear Darth Vader's voice in your head.
• 1:18:36
  As soon as you hear that noise and you hear that low tone of
• 1:18:40
  his. Give your villains that thing
• 1:18:45
  whatever it needs to be. It might be a visual thing.
• 1:18:48
  It might be a personality thing. It might be a voice thing.
• 1:18:51
  It might be, it might be a particular like action they do,
• 1:18:57
  but you need that like stand out thing, you know, that really
• 1:19:03
  sticks. Sometimes you can have a couple
• 1:19:04
  of them, but you need at least one.
• 1:19:08
  Going back to JoJo, 'cause you know, I don't know, JoJo Dio's
• 1:19:13
  weird fucking vampire noises. They just, they stick in your
• 1:19:18
  brain, you know, like something about that weird re his thingy
• 1:19:24
  he does. You're just like, yeah, that
• 1:19:26
  that's like you want to have that for your villain in your
• 1:19:29
  tabletop game because that one little trait can just you remind
• 1:19:36
  your players. Like, you know, it's the guy who
• 1:19:38
  does the thing and your players go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that
• 1:19:41
  guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, OK, yeah, I
• 1:19:42
  know who you're talking about. And it immediately just locks it
• 1:19:44
  back in their brain. You know, like you want, you
• 1:19:47
  want that immediate recognition. Another another good example
• 1:19:51
  with DIO is Zoraldo right? You hear?
• 1:19:54
  I was thinking about the muda Muda.
• 1:19:56
  The Muda Muda is another deal. Has quite a few of them.
• 1:19:59
  But the Muda Muda Zoraldo, his weird vampire hiss, like all
• 1:20:03
  that shit. You hear any of those things and
• 1:20:05
  you're like, that fucking deal. Yeah, I know exactly what you're
• 1:20:07
  talking about. You want, you kind of want the
• 1:20:12
  meme. You want your villain to have
• 1:20:13
  the meme, like whatever it is. You know what I mean?
• 1:20:18
  I mean, I, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's
• 1:20:21
  this is the cliche thing, right? It's like, Oh yes, having a a
• 1:20:23
  overdramatic villain who's got a one weird like quirk.
• 1:20:27
  Yeah. Is that cliche?
• 1:20:28
  Yeah. It's a cliche for a fucking
• 1:20:30
  reason. It works.
• 1:20:31
  Yeah, I mean, it's a trope that hits it.
• 1:20:33
  It just, it gets the point across.
• 1:20:35
  And again, cliche doesn't have to mean bad, right?
• 1:20:39
  Like cliche does not inherently mean bad.
• 1:20:42
  It just, it's like a shorthand tool and especially when you're
• 1:20:47
  dealing with tabletop where you don't necessarily have, you
• 1:20:51
  don't have the time or the ability to do something like a
• 1:20:54
  book where you can, you know, really Stew on a character.
• 1:20:59
  That's just not going to happen because it's a tabletop game.
• 1:21:03
  Everyone has to be, you know, you want everyone to be
• 1:21:06
  interacting and playing in roughly equal measure.
• 1:21:09
  If you as AGM just spend 45 minutes stewing on your villain
• 1:21:12
  guy, you know, it's, it's going to come off as you just playing
• 1:21:16
  with yourself and not in a good way.
• 1:21:20
  So it's like, yeah, you got to have that, that cliche thing is
• 1:21:28
  there because it it gets that punch, it gets that immediate
• 1:21:32
  snap, you know? Using I one of my villains, the
• 1:21:38
  perfect example is, and it's not the villain I want it to be, but
• 1:21:42
  there is a, a a sort of anti hero, maybe villain character
• 1:21:50
  who was a a relative of the their their maybe dead handler.
• 1:21:55
  And the whole thing is he's just a cowboy.
• 1:21:58
  He's just got the thick Texas accent and he'd fucking smoke
• 1:22:01
  cigars. He's got a cowboy hat and like,
• 1:22:04
  yeah, he's basically a space mecha cowboy.
• 1:22:06
  But at this time, anytime that the players are like, you know,
• 1:22:11
  like you see a familiar face and you hear the going on gunslinger
• 1:22:14
  and you're like. Oh.
• 1:22:16
  Fuck, it's a Newman, you know what I mean?
• 1:22:18
  Like they're immediately, they're like, that's Newman.
• 1:22:20
  There he is. Yeah, and that's not necessarily
• 1:22:23
  a you're not even talking about a villain, but yeah, it, it
• 1:22:28
  works for it can work for any kind of character you want.
• 1:22:32
  You know, we're talking about villains in particular.
• 1:22:33
  But yeah, this one really extends to fucking everybody.
• 1:22:38
  And it. Yeah, it's just handy,
• 1:22:41
  especially because again, you know, we're operating in the
• 1:22:44
  space of tabletop needs to be a little bit snappier, a little
• 1:22:51
  bit punchier in that regard because you can't because you.
• 1:22:57
  Because you're telling a story collaboratively, right.
• 1:23:02
  If you imagine it like you're sort of passing the narrative
• 1:23:04
  baton when, when the narrative baton is passed back around to
• 1:23:11
  you as the GM, No, no, actually it's not even really AGM thing.
• 1:23:16
  When the narrative baton is passed to you as a player or, or
• 1:23:20
  AGM, it doesn't matter. You need to make the most of
• 1:23:24
  your time as quick as you can. And part of the way you do that
• 1:23:29
  is, is doing things like snappy quick cliches or like a little
• 1:23:34
  bit trophy. I'm doing this thing because
• 1:23:40
  you're, again, you're trying to share the quote UN quote screen
• 1:23:43
  time as much as you can. Whereas in something like ATV
• 1:23:46
  show, you know, ATV show writer doesn't need to give an equal
• 1:23:51
  amount of screen time to every character, right?
• 1:23:53
  They can give as much screen time they want to whichever
• 1:23:56
  characters they like best. They don't have to spread it
• 1:23:59
  around at the table. You, you know, you kind of have
• 1:24:03
  to spread it around when you're playing with, you know, playing
• 1:24:06
  tabletop with each other. So the snappiness, that
• 1:24:10
  punchiness helps getting get the point across while also trying
• 1:24:15
  to spread that screen time around and pass the baton as
• 1:24:17
  much as you can. Because nobody wants, nobody
• 1:24:22
  wants a player who's the main character Hog, but nobody wants
• 1:24:26
  AGM who's the main character Hog either, right?
• 1:24:29
  Like, nobody wants to play in a game where AGM just talks to
• 1:24:33
  themselves for an hour about how fucking cool they are, right?
• 1:24:36
  That's not that's not fun, that's also not a game right?
• 1:24:40
  Like nobody wants to do that is. Cut that shit out, it's boring,
• 1:24:47
  stop it. You also look a little weird and
• 1:24:50
  cringe when you do shit like that.
• 1:24:52
  Very. True, right?
• 1:24:54
  Like the GM who like very clearly just wants to expound
• 1:24:57
  about how cool their character that this character they came up
• 1:25:00
  with is. It's a little cringe.
• 1:25:02
  Bro, I had one of those in my own campaign where I was like,
• 1:25:07
  it's like their their boss, right?
• 1:25:09
  I was like, he's going to be maybe dead soon.
• 1:25:12
  I got like, I'm retiring this character that I care quite
• 1:25:14
  deeply about. I'm just going to let them be
• 1:25:16
  cool for a couple minutes. And I told the players I'm like,
• 1:25:18
  I'm going to get really self flaming about a couple seconds.
• 1:25:23
  You're just going to have to put up with me.
• 1:25:27
  If you're just going to let me, it was.
• 1:25:28
  Funny because they were like, oh damn, he's pretty cool actually.
• 1:25:31
  And I was like, I appreciate you.
• 1:25:32
  I appreciate you. Thank you.
• 1:25:34
  Thank you Game recognized game. Yeah.
• 1:25:39
  And I, I do want to mention too, this idea of having a, a
• 1:25:43
  particular personality trait or a particular element to their
• 1:25:46
  character that stands out. That doesn't mean it has to be
• 1:25:49
  bombastic, right? Like making it bombastic is
• 1:25:55
  sometimes easier, but it doesn't have to be super over.
• 1:26:00
  Like if you're if the tone of your game is the Witchers
• 1:26:03
  series, right? Like if you really want to
• 1:26:05
  hammer in on the tone of the like the Witcher books, then
• 1:26:09
  yeah, you're you're probably not going to have a character who, I
• 1:26:13
  don't know, talks exclusively in soliloquies or something.
• 1:26:16
  Like that's a little much. But you can have a character
• 1:26:20
  like Dandelion who's overly flowery, right?
• 1:26:26
  They have this this flowery element to the way that they
• 1:26:30
  speak and it doesn't need to be too much.
• 1:26:32
  It just needs to be present enough that the players
• 1:26:35
  immediately like, Oh yeah, this guy, you know, the guy who talks
• 1:26:40
  a little too flowery or another trait for Dandelion is the guy
• 1:26:43
  who gets a lot of bitches, right.
• 1:26:47
  So like for me, what I did with the Baron, I and I didn't
• 1:26:52
  overplay it because tonally it would feel off if I did.
• 1:26:57
  But the Baron is just that kind of he's that sleaziness that
• 1:27:03
  like kind of greasy noble. Like I get to do what I want.
• 1:27:09
  I'm just better than the peasants.
• 1:27:10
  Like I tried to kind of get that element of his personality
• 1:27:15
  across and be kind of the foremost part of him that that
• 1:27:20
  sleaze to him is really what I wanted to hammer home.
• 1:27:23
  And it didn't need to be. It wasn't like every other
• 1:27:28
  sentence he was complaining about poor people.
• 1:27:31
  It was just you got that feeling from him, like he was always
• 1:27:36
  looking a little down, talking a little down.
• 1:27:38
  Like it was just that ever present sense sense of his, of
• 1:27:42
  his, his sensibilities, his political opinions, I guess.
• 1:27:50
  But yeah, so it it doesn't need to be super bombastic.
• 1:27:54
  It can be super bombastic. Obviously, if you want to go,
• 1:27:58
  you know, if you want to go, Senator Armstrong, hoorah.
• 1:28:02
  Military is fucking sick and war is good.
• 1:28:05
  You could do that. But it doesn't have to be that,
• 1:28:08
  you know, it just needs to be. It needs to be a key linchpin
• 1:28:13
  that you always come back to for the character, like a like a
• 1:28:16
  touchstone. Well, so you know, you know,
• 1:28:19
  what you do have as something in the medium of tabletop games
• 1:28:22
  that I think is is overlooked a lot.
• 1:28:25
  What music? It is so easy to make a
• 1:28:30
  character memorable and I have done this by giving them a
• 1:28:32
  theme. Song A soundtrack?
• 1:28:34
  Yeah. Anytime that character shows up,
• 1:28:37
  play that track and the players will automatically be like,
• 1:28:41
  there he is that son of a bitch. It's him.
• 1:28:44
  It's the imperial March, right? Like.
• 1:28:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know shit's cooked when you
• 1:28:48
  hear the you're like, it's something terrible is about to
• 1:28:55
  happen. The.
• 1:28:56
  Bad guys have arrived. Like, and this works and like
• 1:28:59
  this works for everybody. This isn't just a villain thing,
• 1:29:01
  right? On the inverse, anytime Johnny
• 1:29:03
  Silverham does a thing and you hear fucking that that haunting
• 1:29:07
  cello for Rebel Path player like Johnny's about to say some
• 1:29:11
  absolute. He's about to drop.
• 1:29:14
  Some bangers, but man's about to be put on a list.
• 1:29:19
  Yep. Yeah, it it, it.
• 1:29:20
  It does a really good job at getting the players to care and
• 1:29:23
  making the character scenes events really memorable.
• 1:29:28
  Put things to music. That's why every major VTT has
• 1:29:32
  one. And if you don't have those, you
• 1:29:34
  can use a bot on discord or whatever app because fuck
• 1:29:37
  discord, I guess. But like you can do that and you
• 1:29:41
  should do it. And it makes it so that you
• 1:29:43
  don't have to worry about a character being super bombastic
• 1:29:46
  and being super high energy. Sometimes just having a really
• 1:29:50
  haunting song play and you know, fuck face McGee shows up to do
• 1:29:55
  some evil shit. So you need.
• 1:29:57
  Again, it's it's that linchpin, it's that, it's that touchstone,
• 1:30:01
  right? As long as you can always come
• 1:30:02
  back to that touchstone, it will help lock that villain or any
• 1:30:07
  character into your player's mind.
• 1:30:11
  It's yeah, I don't know. There's, there's probably a
• 1:30:17
  word, there's probably like a writing, a writing, like not
• 1:30:22
  style, but a writing. What's the word I'm looking for?
• 1:30:26
  Like a, a lesson in this. There's probably a technique
• 1:30:30
  that is what I'm talking about. But yeah, give give that, give
• 1:30:33
  that core touchstone point. Yeah, I think that's all I, I
• 1:30:42
  think that's all I got. I I feel like if you can apply
• 1:30:45
  it at least a few of these elements to the villain, they
• 1:30:52
  will stick in your players brain.
• 1:30:53
  I mean, if I were to say any of them is absolutely mandatory, I
• 1:30:57
  would say they got to show up more than once.
• 1:31:00
  That first one. I think that is the most
• 1:31:02
  mandatory if you want a villain to be.
• 1:31:04
  Memorable. That's the lowest level.
• 1:31:05
  Yeah, they need to be present more than just the one time they
• 1:31:10
  fight him like he just they just that one's like a non
• 1:31:13
  negotiable. The other ones I think you can
• 1:31:16
  sort of mix and match and pull in and out as you go.
• 1:31:21
  Anything you want to add on the tail end?
• 1:31:24
  No, yeah. I mean, make sure they show up
• 1:31:26
  at least one other time, hopefully more.
• 1:31:30
  Hopefully more I think. Free is kind of the magic
• 1:31:32
  number. It is, yeah.
• 1:31:34
  And so all the people who are like, but my players are going
• 1:31:36
  to just kill them. Yes, that's follow one of our
• 1:31:40
  other episodes where we talk about having a cutscene put them
• 1:31:43
  in a position where they can't put them in a position where
• 1:31:46
  fighting is not the option. And and is.
• 1:31:50
  A. Fighting.
• 1:31:51
  Fighting is a detriment. Even these are all tools that
• 1:31:58
  you can utilize to make sure that a character is memorable.
• 1:32:03
  And it it I, you know, a lot easier than you think.
• 1:32:06
  You know that there's always the meme of like, but my players
• 1:32:09
  keep killing them so quickly. It's like, right, I hate to beat
• 1:32:13
  that guy, but you're putting them in a position where they
• 1:32:16
  can be killed so easily. Well, and, and also you got to
• 1:32:20
  understand on the player side of the table, that's kind of what
• 1:32:24
  they're supposed to do, right? Like their instinct is this is
• 1:32:28
  what we're supposed to do, is the bad guy shows up, we fight
• 1:32:31
  the bad guy. That's kind of how most tabletop
• 1:32:34
  games frame it. So you have to break out of that
• 1:32:39
  framing if you want to do something different.
• 1:32:41
  And if you don't do anything different, then yeah, that's how
• 1:32:43
  your players are going to respond because they've been
• 1:32:46
  kind of trained to do so. And it's the same.
• 1:32:51
  The funny thing is GMs, people who GM more than they play will
• 1:32:57
  complain about this particular behavior.
• 1:32:59
  They'll be like, oh, players just always go straight to
• 1:33:01
  murder rate the guy. And then the that same GM will
• 1:33:04
  be a player and will do the exact same shit.
• 1:33:08
  They'll do the same thing because it's like, it's like,
• 1:33:11
  it's an instinct. It's like it's what I'm, it's
• 1:33:13
  how I'm supposed to do this. You know what I mean?
• 1:33:16
  Yeah. They'll jump straight to it
• 1:33:18
  because it's just a, it's a, it's a cultural thing.
• 1:33:24
  It's like, that's how we do this, do this.
• 1:33:27
  That's how we play this particular kind of game.
• 1:33:33
  It's yeah, that I hope that was useful information.
• 1:33:39
  I, I, it is information I have gleaned by by playing and just
• 1:33:45
  sort of observing some habits, some accidental habits in some
• 1:33:49
  regard. So I think it'll probably, I
• 1:33:51
  don't know, help somebody out. That has been us.
• 1:34:00
  Say hi to your mom for me and leave us a follow on the social
• 1:34:04
  medias. I like that.
• 1:34:08
  I like to say hi to your mom for me.
• 1:34:09
  That's a good one. That's it.
• 1:34:13
  Bye bye.