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Women’s Wednesday: Sober Curious · Women's Wednesday with Susan Tran

0:09
Hi everyone. Welcome to Women's Wednesday. I'm
0:12
Susan Tran and we are talking about Sober Curious
0:17
today on Women's Wednesday. We have our friend
0:20
Lisa Kays joining us. Thank you so much for being
0:22
here. Thank you for having me. It's one of my
0:24
favorite topics. I love it. I love it because
0:27
you are a clinical social worker, a therapist.
0:30
You've worked in this space for quite some time.
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And it's just something that I started noticing
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on my social media pages that everybody's talking
0:38
about. social awareness about alcohol and the
0:44
sober curious trend or movement. So why don't
0:47
we jump in with what is that? The sober curious
0:50
movement? Yeah. It is a movement that was largely
0:52
started by women when they realized that AA and
0:56
these traditional abstinence based ways of getting
0:58
sober were not working for women. They worked
1:01
well for men, not great for women. And so they
1:04
they needed to get sober themselves and they
1:06
pioneered and wrote a lot of books and kind of
1:08
came up with their own methods. And what they
1:10
observed was that it wasn't working to just tell
1:12
people to stop like that. That just isn't like
1:15
depriving yourself just wasn't working. And that
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what really helped people was to go through a
1:20
process of curiosity about their relationship
1:23
with alcohol. And to kind of run some experiments,
1:25
observe, how is this helping me? How is this
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hurting me? And then using that data to let people
1:31
decide for themselves how they might want to
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shift that relationship. And that might mean
1:35
I'm going to stop drinking totally. It might
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mean I'm going to drink less. But giving people
1:40
agency to really explore seemed to work better
1:43
than just saying stop. And the idea that AA wasn't
1:47
working, because that is a, we're stopping. Yes,
1:50
and there's the, it's a very, this is a complicated
1:54
thing and I do not want to bash AA. AA has saved
1:57
people's lives. It works for so many people.
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I am not here to bash, everybody needs different
2:01
things. Right. And AA, there is a sort of, dominance
2:05
-based or like you have to do it this way, ethos
2:08
to AA, that I think doesn't work for women because
2:12
they just come from a very different place in
2:14
their experience. And so telling women what to
2:16
do isn't as effective for them. And why do you
2:20
think this trend is really starting to pick up
2:23
steam at this point? I think some of it is just
2:26
education. There's more known about how alcohol
2:29
is a toxin, kind of like people were figuring
2:31
it out about cigarettes. So we have more information
2:33
about alcohol does contribute to cancer. It does
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have health effects that are not, you know, people
2:38
are using wearables now and they're very in tune
2:40
to their health markers. And so I think they're
2:42
aware. And then I think this sober, curious information.
2:45
And people started having dry January, if you
2:48
remember. Right, right, right, right. Letting
2:50
themselves observe like, oh, I kind of feel better
2:52
when I'm not doing this. Right. This is a affecting
2:54
me. And so I think, and you have the advent of
2:57
all these, you know, there's so many non -alcoholic
2:59
options for drinks and this sort of normalization
3:02
of people not drinking. And I think that's kind
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of just culturally brought people along to where
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this is much more normalized to not drink. And
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it's not this kind of, I don't know, it doesn't
3:13
have as much stigma now. I feel like I have plenty
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of friends who are just, you know what, I'm just.
3:20
taking a break or I'm having less or I'm Considering
3:24
maybe cutting it out altogether, but it's a huge
3:29
journey as opposed to this an end Yes, and that
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is something that I think we have to thank these
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women writers about Hollywood occur and the naked
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mind and all of these different pieces Because
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what they kind of outlined was this is the weirdest
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thing like if you tell somebody I'm going to
3:46
stop smoking. Everybody goes, great. Good for
3:48
you. But if people say I've stopped drinking,
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it used to be that it would be like, oh, you
3:52
must be like, you must have serious problems.
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And we would stigmatize it. And these women kind
3:56
of realized this is a really weird, contradictory
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thing. And we're making this a lot harder. And
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we need to look at this differently. And I do
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think that and the sober curious started shifting
4:06
things for people. And so then you could proudly
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say, oh, I'm not drinking anymore. And people
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are not making that some. It still happens, but
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they're not necessarily making these assumptions.
4:15
about you. And this was all kind of a conversation
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and I love that for women we need a relationship
4:23
based approach to things. We need to talk things
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out, we need to be curious about it, we need
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to explore. And has that been really helpful
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for the the patients that you're seeing or the
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people that you're seeing? I was thinking about
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this when I came over here. Everyone that I have
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worked with who has gotten sober, including men,
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has done it through more of a sober curious frame.
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They all come in. Nobody comes in usually saying
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they want to stop. They say they want to change
4:49
their relationship. And if I were to say to them,
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like, you have to just stop and that's the only
4:53
way. That wouldn't have worked. They all had
4:56
a long journey of their own experiments, their
4:58
own reflection, their own looking at what is
5:00
this doing for me and not. And eventually most
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of them do end up sober. But it feels, I think,
5:06
more real because it's not coming from someone
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on the outside saying you need to live your life
5:11
this way. It's coming from inside of them going,
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oh, I've realized myself that this isn't working
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and this is how I want to change my life for
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me. Why do you think it's kind of this? step
5:22
-by -step journey that has been so helpful for
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so many people on the path to maybe not drinking
5:30
at all, if anything, drinking less. I think it's
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because it is such an individual process. Everybody
5:38
starts drinking for different reasons. alcohol
5:43
serves a different purpose for different people.
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And so to undo whatever went into you starting
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drinking or continuing to drink, you have to
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go through an individual process of figuring
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out how you're going to reconfigure things that
5:56
are going to work for you. For some people, it's
5:58
a social thing. For some people, it's managing
6:01
isolation. For some people, they're managing
6:03
stress. Some people are managing anxiety, depression,
6:06
ADHD. You have to figure out what's under the
6:09
addiction usually in order to be able to undo
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it. And that's so different for everybody else.
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So that's why that curiosity process really helps.
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And it feels like this is a long journey. I mean,
6:21
you're not switching over the next day. That's
6:26
not going to happen. And so to have this kind
6:28
of curiosity about it gives you like a long runway.
6:32
Yes it also deshames the average person will
6:35
relapse or go back to drinking five times before
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they attain long -term sobriety. So for some
6:40
people you know that's an average some people
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it's more some people it's less but that happens
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in my experience what I've observed because people
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have to learn. How to not drink we had to learn
6:50
how to drink if you remember that process Yeah,
6:52
it was fun sometimes involved a toilet and some
6:54
gross things But we also have to learn how to
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not drink and so people usually have to go through
7:00
and be like, oh man I thought I was fine I went
7:02
three months and then I went to this place and
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it turns out that messed me up I got a like reconfigure
7:07
or they learn. Oh, I'm actually doing this to
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mitigate anxiety or depression Maybe I need an
7:12
antidepressant to kind of take the edge off.
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Okay, hold your thought. We'll be right back.
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You're watching women's Wednesday Welcome back
7:21
to Women's Wednesday on DC News Now and today
7:24
we are talking about being sober curious with
7:28
Lisa Kays, a therapist, licensed clinical social
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worker and thank you so much for kind of walking
7:34
us through this whole process and before we left
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off we were talking just about how it took a
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long time for us to appreciate or like alcohol
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so to disengage from it might also take a while.
7:47
takes a minute and we need to be gentle with
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ourselves. And I think a lot of what sets people
7:52
back is shame. They kind of think, oh, there's
7:55
something really wrong with me if I can't stop
7:56
the first time or like they're and so they'll
7:58
go into shame and kind of give up. And that's
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what I love about the sober curious model is
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it says no, no, no, there's nothing to be ashamed
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of. It's an addictive substance. Your brain is
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doing what the substance wants it to be doing.
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Let's go back and just see what we need to learn
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and see what we need to sort out. And it's become
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so much. easier now for people who are sober
8:17
curious. I was just looking online and in DC
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there's a 100 % alcohol -free bar and it's not
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just Shirley Temple's. No it's good I've been
8:27
there it's good. Key okay and then there was
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even an LGBTQ bar that has a one -for -one so
8:34
all cocktails have an zero proof option and then
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a whole website booze free in DC With listings
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with very very lovely restaurants that have nice
8:48
alcohol -free programs We're way past seltzer
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used to just be you had seltzer and now we have
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so many more options that probably though kept
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a lot of people from maybe having that journey
9:00
of being sober curious because you don't want
9:02
to be that one you go out with all of your friends
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and You're not just gonna have like the seltzer.
9:10
Yeah or it looks really obvious and then you
9:14
have to have conversations about it and in this
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area in particular people's work is very tied
9:19
to alcohol like if you like cocktails networking
9:23
parties and so people have legitimate professional
9:26
concerns about how do I transition to this and
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not have it like, you know, have it people stigmatizing
9:31
me or thinking something. And so these non alcoholic
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options that basically you can look like you
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have a beer in your hand or look like you have.
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I mean, some there is even zero wines. Yeah.
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You know, or like legitimate cocktails. You don't
9:43
have to feel like you're just drinking juice.
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I think do help a lot of people. Not everybody
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is into that. And, you know, for some people,
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it's kind of they think it's harmful for them
9:52
and might like lead them back to drinking. But
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for a lot of people, it's a really good option.
9:56
Can you talk about how that is helpful because
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you do have that option so you don't have to
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feel like you can't have this journey with all
10:07
of your friends and all of your support really
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around you? A huge factor in why people will
10:14
return to drinking is a sense of feeling left
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out. It is a sense of being different and it
10:19
is a sense of having to navigate really difficult
10:22
conversations. The number of conversations I
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have with people about weddings when they get
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sober is extensive. We do a lot of talking about
10:30
weddings because if you think about how alcohol
10:34
is everywhere at weddings. And so these options
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where it's like, I mean, I've been to parties
10:39
with my husband where the company has two or
10:41
three like non alcoholic cocktails. And it's
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so nice because there's no conversation you have
10:45
to have. It's very inclusive if we think about
10:48
inclusivity. And so it really gets through this
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layer for people of like, oh, this is going to
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be a thing or I got to explain to so and so why
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I'm not, you know, and then have them say, oh,
10:57
are you sure you need, you know, and it just
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cuts through that whole layer. And it's, you
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know, it's more enjoyable taste wise. And it
11:04
gives you something interesting. you feel like
11:06
you fit in and some people like the taste of
11:08
alcohol and so it gives them like that taste
11:11
without you know the harmful aspects. And there
11:14
is that aspect I have a lot of friends who are
11:16
servers or in the restaurant industry and they
11:19
don't necessarily want to go to a bar and order
11:22
a seltzer because there's this whole community
11:26
around that and having these cocktails that are
11:30
just near just as pricey because there are beautifully
11:35
crafted beverages it does give you a sense that
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I am enjoying your space I am enjoying the community
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and I'm I just enjoy another type of beverage
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It's inclusive. I fit in. It's like it's I just
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think it makes everybody feel comfortable. And
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I think for the people that are drinking, they
11:54
don't have to feel weird because like you're
11:56
you know, everybody I think it just smooths everything.
11:58
Inclusivity is always better. And there has been
12:00
we were talking about women being part of the
12:03
the forefront of the sober curious movement.
12:05
A lot of that had to do with perimenopause and
12:08
menopause. Right. With just how some symptoms
12:11
were exacerbated with alcohol. Yeah, I mean,
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I don't know about the women. I think they were
12:17
younger than like Hollywood occur. And I think
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they were younger. But maybe my my instafeed
12:23
is is different. Maybe different. I could be
12:25
wrong about that. But I absolutely think there's
12:27
a correlation where women enter menopause and
12:30
menopause and alcohol starts affecting you very
12:33
different. Your whole you know, it's people call
12:35
it reverse puberty. Your whole body is shifting
12:38
and the whore, whatever is going on. I'm not
12:39
a doctor. Whatever is going on. You know, it
12:41
can exacerbate hot flashes. It can exacerbate
12:44
the anxiety that comes with menopause. It can
12:46
exacerbate all kinds of things. And I think women
12:48
start noticing, OK, I used to be able to have
12:50
two glasses of wine a night. And now I'm like
12:52
down. You know, it's really I'm feeling really
12:55
bad the next day. And I think that starts to
12:57
cause the reflection process about, you know,
13:00
is this what I want? Is it worth it? Is it good
13:02
for me? Why? And. Alcohol's always been disruptive
13:05
with sleep, and so now it's even more so if you're
13:10
in the perimenopause stage. Oh, interesting,
13:14
I never really thought that you're having all
13:15
these symptoms and you're reflective about it,
13:17
so you're like, okay, well maybe I need to...
13:20
have a conversation about my relationship with
13:22
alcohol. That's what I've heard when women notice
13:24
that it comes that the alcohol is affecting them
13:27
differently. I've heard that that can kick off
13:29
that process. And a lot of my role is also to
13:32
educate people about because alcohol also exacerbates
13:34
anxiety, depression, a lot of other symptoms
13:37
that we think it's curing in the short term.
13:40
But in the law. And so it is a lot of education
13:42
about how it affects sleep in these systems.
13:44
And I think in perimenopause, it's like all of
13:46
that just ratchets up to a 10. All right. You're
13:48
watching Women's Wednesday. We'll be right back.
13:53
Welcome back to Women's Wednesday on DC News
13:56
Now. And today we are talking with Elisa Kayes,
13:59
a clinical social worker, about being sober curious,
14:02
which is this movement about women, mainly a
14:06
lot of women at the forefront of it, at least,
14:08
deciding that maybe they want to drink less,
14:11
maybe stop altogether. And it's a huge journey.
14:14
Yeah. All right. Let's talk about how women can
14:17
go about this. Not as cold turkey. So what do
14:23
we have to do to start on this journey? I think
14:26
it is helpful if you can do it cold turkey go
14:28
for it But most people cannot and most people
14:31
need some level of support Figuring out the kind
14:34
of support that you need is going to be different
14:36
for everybody and it's great to do some experiments
14:39
But just remembering that you went through a
14:41
chemical process to become addicted or at least
14:44
habituated to alcohol. And so there's nothing
14:46
wrong if you need therapy or some sort of support
14:48
if you want to try AA. If you need a little bit
14:52
of help, there are a lot of medications right
14:54
now that really help take the edge off of some
14:56
of these symptoms and the cravings that can be
14:59
really hard. And so I like for people to know
15:01
there's a lot of resources. There's nothing to
15:03
be ashamed about needing resources. And you can
15:06
go get help from people who aren't just going
15:08
to say, like, you have to stop tomorrow. That's
15:10
not what most people are doing right now. And
15:13
so you can really work through and figure out
15:15
what's going to work for you. I never thought
15:17
about the fact that it took us a while to have
15:20
this relationship with alcohol. So it might take
15:22
a while. to remove ourselves from it. Yeah. If
15:25
you think about any relationship you've had for
15:27
20, 30 years, if you all of a sudden decide to
15:30
change it up, it's like there's going to be a
15:32
transition period in that. Right. That you might
15:35
miss it. Yeah. You might. You got to set boundaries
15:38
with it, you know, and figure out what do I want
15:41
it to come to this party or not that, you know,
15:43
there's a lot that has to go on. And we want
15:45
to be really gentle with ourselves through that.
15:47
That is such an interesting lens to consider.
15:50
Like sometimes I like to have this relationship,
15:53
but sometimes it's really bad and I do horrible
15:56
things or, you know, it's not my best self that
16:00
I want to present out there. Right. Or I go hang
16:02
out with that friend and I think I'm having fun,
16:04
but I leave feeling very drained and tired. Right.
16:07
Maybe we don't want to see that friend anymore.
16:09
Right. Right. Right. And we don't have to cut
16:11
them off cold turkey, but we can have this conversation
16:14
about it. Should we give ourselves as much time
16:19
for that? Are we talking like months, years?
16:22
Like what is? Whatever it takes for you. Most
16:25
people that I have worked with, it can take months
16:28
and years. Some people it's less, but yes, absolutely.
16:32
I mean, I'm sober. I've been sober for six years.
16:35
And I think for me, I think it was a seven to
16:38
eight try multi -year, and that was with me knowing.
16:41
all the stuff. I had been doing addiction work
16:44
forever. I knew intellectually. I knew the resources.
16:46
I knew all of it. It still took me some trial
16:49
and error and a pandemic because my difficulty
16:52
was social, I realized. So the pandemic really
16:54
helped me out because it was like you can't go
16:56
out anymore. But you really have to let yourself
16:58
go through whatever process you need to go through.
17:01
That is just great advice. So don't be so hard
17:05
on yourself and talk about some of the medications
17:08
that is this something you would get through
17:12
a conversation with your primary care physician.
17:15
Could be your primary care. Some people go to
17:17
see a psychiatric nurse practitioner or a psychiatrist.
17:20
There are addiction centers, and you can do outpatient
17:23
or inpatient. But two medications that I think
17:26
can be really helpful that I like people to know
17:28
about are naltrexone, which takes the edge off
17:30
of cravings. So for the people it works for,
17:33
it's like you're not going to have that mental
17:35
kind of noise thinking about drinking, or it's
17:37
going to turn it way down. And an abuse is one
17:40
that not everybody can take because it can cause
17:42
liver issues. But for those who can, you take
17:45
it in the morning, which is when the monkey brain
17:47
about the addiction is not on. And then as you
17:51
go through your day and around five o 'clock,
17:52
when maybe you're more likely to kind of be like,
17:54
oh, I'm going to give in. And abuse actually
17:56
makes you violently ill if you drink alcohol.
17:59
So when that brain starts to turn on saying have
18:02
a drink, you're like, no, I'm going to get sick.
18:03
It gives you this concrete consequence and most
18:06
people won't drink on it. And so it gets them.
18:08
through that that really intense relapse process.
18:12
And then for some people what they need is an
18:14
ADHD medication because they've been self -medicating
18:16
with that or they need an anti -anxiety medication
18:18
or an antidepressant. And so I love to tell people
18:21
like it's okay to get help and some support with
18:24
this. You may not need it forever but for most
18:26
people the brain heals from addiction in about
18:29
a year and we can need some support through that
18:32
year just to make things a little easier. Okay
18:36
so it's like a medical Healing medical condition.
18:39
Yeah, it's a medical condition. Why did I never
18:42
think about the chemically induced medical condition?
18:45
And so you need you're not just breaking a habit.
18:48
You're like healing Whatever. Yes. Yeah. Oh my
18:52
goodness So what would be your best advice for
18:56
for women for people who are out there so precarious
18:59
and just Afraid to take the first step or afraid
19:02
the stigma or whatever barrier it is. What is
19:05
your advice for them? What I love to say is actually
19:09
find the smallest step that you can take. So
19:14
for me, actually, my sober journey began with
19:16
an effort to drink more water, which is totally
19:18
random and unrelated, but that spiraling into
19:22
I was like, oh, I feel so much better when I'm
19:23
hydrated. Alcohol is dehydrating. Interesting.
19:26
But I would say, like, it can feel so insurmountable.
19:30
So maybe the first step for you is buying the
19:32
Sober Curious book. Or maybe the first step for
19:34
you is going to be listening to a podcast about
19:36
people talking. But to find a small first step,
19:39
maybe for me, also what helped was talking to
19:41
a friend who had gotten sober and being able
19:44
to, like, listen to her and hear her story. So
19:46
it's it doesn't have to be I'm not going to drink
19:48
tomorrow. And that's the whole sober cure. The
19:50
sober curious books and a lot of the really good
19:52
books actually start with. Please don't stop.
19:54
Don't keep drinking. We're just going to introduce
19:57
some ways of thinking. So find like what you
19:59
can do and start there. And then as you go on,
20:02
if you find you need support, I would encourage
20:05
people to find support. It's out there. And you
20:09
are you were also talking about how it's important
20:12
to kind of give yourself grace. Yes. Because
20:15
you're going to fail. Yes. It's critical to give
20:17
yourself grace. Like with everybody that I ever
20:20
work with, my favorite line with them when they,
20:22
you know, when they inevitably relapse or as
20:24
I say, OK, what do we learn? What'd you learn?
20:26
They always learn something. So if we beat ourselves
20:29
up and if we, you know, shame ourselves, you're
20:32
going to give up and you're never going to get
20:33
there. It's like riding a bike. So we want to
20:36
just keep what did I learn? What did I learn?
20:38
OK. And you build from there and you're going
20:40
to get it's like building a muscle. You're going
20:42
to get better at it. OK. But you were saying
20:44
most people have like a five time. That's the
20:47
that's the statistic is five. So don't give up.
20:51
No, it's a journey. You can just be curious about
20:53
it and. It's an experiment. It's an adventure.
20:57
Yeah. All right. Thank you, Lisa Kaye, so much
20:59
for your time. You're watching Women's Wednesday.
21:01
Have a great one.