Latest / Reframe First / Tamara Simić, CEO of Skipper4you | Yacht Crews, Nautical Tourism & Scaling Operations
Transcript
- Oleksij Rak: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Reframe First. I'm Alexey Hozefly podcast. And let me welcome our today's ⁓ Tamara Simic, CEO and skipper for you. ⁓ hi Tamara. Great having you. And thanks a lot for joining. So from what I learned about your company, you provide, you do quite a lot. So you provide YAC services. Tamara Simić: Okay. Hi, hi. Thank you. I'm so happy to be ⁓ here. Yes. Yes. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: service and you provide skipper services, provide all inclusive bot services, you have your own app for finding skipper and on top of that you even have a skipper academy. You in the market for about a year so you did quite a lot. Could you tell us about what the company does and what the holiday is? Tamara Simić: Yes, of course. Well, Skipper4U was actually founded back in 2003, at the time when actually charter tourism in Croatia was just starting to develop. And very early on, our founders recognized that as charter companies grow, managing crew, large number of people, logistics, quality expectations, becomes actually a complex and time-consuming challenge. And that is actually where we positioned ourselves. What is interesting is that globally, nautical tourism is still considered a niche, contributing only 3 to 5 % of total tourism. But in Croatia, that number is significantly higher, around 10%. which really shows how strategically ⁓ important this segment is for our market. So as I told you, our core business is providing professional crews, skippers, hostesses, chefs, and we collaborate with most of the major charter companies in Croatia, in Spain, and in Greece. We also handle yacht deliveries worldwide. mainly taking vessels, new vessels from shipyards in France, in La Rochelle and Groussaint to destinations like Croatia, Greece, but also Caribbean, Bahamas and Seychelles. And we actually do around 50 to 100 yacht ⁓ deliveries annually, which is lot. And alongside that, as you already mentioned, we have our own Skipper and Hostess Academy, where we actually train people for real time, ⁓ real life at work at sea, and which also gives us strong control over quality, but over standards also. And besides Skipper for you, I'm also involved in building the Skipper for You app, is built, that's actually startup focused on digital crew management. And also, long story short, and that is actually a marketing agency specialized in tourism, particularly, you can guess, in the optical sector. Yeah, and because it's interesting that Our crews are actually constantly on the front line. They are the ones experiencing the whole booking week. They are the ones experiencing the product in real time, for example, when they are delivering new yachts. So we see that as a huge opportunity in creating authentic and structured real-time content. And through long story short, we actually combine branding, content production, web development, and more advanced formats, like for example, virtual reality and immersive experiences. Yes, and all tailored specifically for tourism and for yachting. So yeah, that would be a little bit about what we do. It's a lot, but we try to combine. everything that we can because as I told you we are in the frontline and we have information from our crew but also from the charter companies and through our crew we have information from the guests so I think we understand market pretty well and so that's why we are combining marketing and operations. Yeah. Oleksij Rak: Awesome. And what's the main business driver for your company? it like roof rentals or yacht deliveries? What's driving the revenues? Tamara Simić: Well, as I told you, our core business is providing professional crews. That's the main lead there, yes, but also young deliveries and marketing also now. yes, but I think we got ⁓ more collaborations with other charter companies because of the app also. Oleksij Rak: . Tamara Simić: because as I told you, we are in this business for more than 20 years. So we created an app ⁓ to help all, not just crew members, but also to help the charter companies. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, from what I understand, my method is kind of a market. On one hand, you have the buyers, the crew teams themselves, and the sellers and the buyers, yeah, yaks and... Tamara Simić: Yes, and the charter companies, yes, or agencies. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: Yeah. And are the crews employed by you or are you taking percentage? Tamara Simić: I think for Stamindis. No, we have contracts with them for the season, for example, and for each delivery we have contract with the young delivery crew. And yeah, and we organize everything because it's complex, as I told you. It's we manage a lot of crews on different locations, a lot of young deliveries. So it's a complex. because of that, charter companies are Oleksij Rak: Hmm. Yeah, that's a hard business working with people. It's a hard business in my experience. And how do we deal with seasonality in terms of crews? What are they doing? Tamara Simić: are collaborating with us to make their job easier because they already have a lot of things to think about and that's why they need reliable partner in that way. Yes, well seasonality, Yes, seasonality is a big problem for us because during the high seasons everything escalates because you have bigger demands, ⁓ bigger expectations, so you need to be well prepared in advance. Oleksij Rak: the Tamara Simić: But also I think because we are now centralizing all the information, it's a lot easier for us. We can scale without losing quality and that is important. That's why we've built an app to help our job. But also it's helping others. It's helping the crews, but it's helping the charter companies or for example, charter companies who are managing yachts. on their own because you can communicate in one centralized system. There's no more WhatsApp calls, there's no more emails, it's not spread everywhere, it's in one place. And it's important to give all the relevant information to all sides. So I think the app is really helping us a lot. Oleksij Rak: Now I see why you build the app. the ⁓ app is simplifying the discovery, files the communication, files the data, all the stuff. It replaces the WhatsApp. Tamara Simić: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it replaces manual work actually and less errors and less gaps between the information flow. So it's a lot easier for us because of the app. So I think that's one thing that helped us a lot because not only seasonality is a problem. I can give you a little industry insight because this industry is really dynamic and for example now we are seeing a shift in booking behavior. Demand is still here but bookings are happening much much later, more closer to departure. so it's unpredictable and that's why the app helped us a lot and also the market has gone through a full cycle I would say because 2024 was actually a good year in terms of pricing in Croatia I don't know average booking values increased by more than 30 percent compared to year before But in 2025, we've ⁓ seen a correction of prices and prices dropped to five, six percents and even more in some destinations. And actually the key reason for that is the rapid growth of the fleet in previous years. So simply put, there are more boats on the market which creates pressure on pricing. and also increases competition, of course. And at the same time, the discounts have become quite aggressive. In Croatia, they can go up to 30%, which actually shows how competitive and price sensitive the market has become. So, yes, ⁓ we are seeing a big change in booking behavior. which is of course heavily influenced by global uncertainty and the economic pressure and geopolitical situations, but also ⁓ client expectations are higher. They want everything instant and seamless from booking to check in. And that's why I think technology plays a huge role here. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Tamara Simić: because technology helps us to do this. And also we see a big shift toward automation and efficiency because companies can no longer rely on manual processes and spreadsheets. Yeah. So you really need centralized system and centralized tools. Yeah. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Yeah, you've already opened up a lot of topics for discussion. Okay, let's start this automation. What are you doing to automate everything? Tamara Simić: Yeah. Well, actually, ⁓ we're trying different things, but I would say the app is definitely the most thing we are trying to do. So I can explain a little bit about the app so you understand it. So actually, app was made to make everyone's job easier. Charters, but also crews, because crew have everything related to their job in one place. They can see all booking details. They can see guest preferences, crew lists. They can receive job offers and they can also issue invoices and manage their calendars, which is important for us to see their availability. So it helps us to automatize everything. And on the charter side, charter can see all the relevant information about the and they can contact the crew, they can contact the dispatcher, us, and they can leave all the information in there. And hopefully in the future, near future, we will also be connected to the end client application, which is actually application made for guests who are experiencing to have pre-arrival experience better and to fix everything in advance. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: So when we will be connected with the end client application, I think that will be whole cycle. So everything will be a much easier for everyone, for the charter, for the crew, but also for the guests. So that's how we are trying to reduce manual work and to make everything more efficient, faster and better. So I believe that's a tool. that helped us a lot and will help us in the future because I hope we will have AI dispatching soon also. Because for example, for now, we have a lot of filters for each crew member and you can filter them based on the languages they speak, even if they have tattoos, no tattoo, smoker, non-smoker. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Tamara Simić: So I believe the AI will help us ⁓ to reduce even more manual work. Oleksij Rak: And what was the most time-consuming work? Was it communication part or was it choosing the right group part? What kind of work is the most labor-consuming? Tamara Simić: It's always important to choose the right crew for the guests because the crew is someone who is handling the whole experience. If the crew is good, I believe they will say their holiday was amazing. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: because that's the first person there with them and she or he can give them inside of the destination and everything. And I believe most of the gaps were because not all the information were given to the old sites included. So sometimes when we used, I don't know, spreadsheets or stuff like that, someone didn't put in. Oleksij Rak: . Tamara Simić: some important information and then the crew didn't know it but the guests would like to have everything personalized and everything amazing so those were the gaps in the communication before and I believe we managed to reduce them now and also our app is connected to Nausis which is Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I can imagine. So you optimized a lot of manual processes. ⁓ Tamara Simić: real-time booking platform so now we have real-time data so whenever someone needs a crew member it's in our system so we can handle it so it's a lot easier Yes. Oleksij Rak: How much do you think you have saved? I don't know, in terms of revenues, terms of percentage of margin, in terms of, I don't know, man hours. How much do you have saved your team with this approach? Tamara Simić: Thank you. Well, I think we will save a lot in the future because we started like two years ago and we wanted to create a tool which is completely ⁓ sure. So at the first year we were the only ones using it, only our team. And second year ⁓ Charter started to use it like... Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: most of the charters in Croatia but also for example charter in Seychelles who is dispatching crew on their own so they also started to use it so I believe we will see results soon but for now I think a lot we had better revenue ⁓ last year than the year before so I believe one of the reasons is definitely because of the app because for the charters it's a lot easier now so we had a bigger volume of work even though the season wasn't great it can always be better but for some charters the season was bad i would say but for us it was better because i believe we gave Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Tamara Simić: gave them some extra value and reduced their manual input also so it's important for them also. Oleksij Rak: Awesome. Yeah, that's a great approach of automation usage. And these regards, mentioned competition. So I've heard that competition in bold rental is really, really high nowadays. And margins are getting thinner and thinner and you need to... Tamara Simić: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Oleksij Rak: to become like operational efficient. What could you tell about more about that? So how high is the competition? Who are the main competitors? And is there a threat from global players or market consolidation? So what do you see in Tamara Simić: Well, actually considering our job and our core business, have, of course, we have competition, but it's not that huge because when we started actually in Croatia, we were like first ones because we recognize, OK, this is great position. This is great to position ourselves. But Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Tamara Simić: I'd say that nowadays we have a lot more competition because nautical tourism is pretty popular, especially in Croatia. So yeah, we now we have a lot of competition, but no one who is this long in this business. We are more than 20 years. So we have a good relationship with the charters. And when you do crew management for the charter, Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: You also do Yav deliveries, so they have trust in us, I would say. But for the charter companies, for example, they have huge competition now, because as I told you, more and more fleets came to popular destinations like Croatia, like BVI, and they have a huge competition now. Yes, it's not. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, so probably competition is not touching you that much because you are providing Tamara Simić: touching us that much, but it's touching us because a lot of people are now involved in nautical tourism and a lot of people recognize, okay, this is good. Maybe we should start. ⁓ For example, we were the first one having the Skipper Academy and Hostess Academy. And nowadays you have like only in Croatia, few ⁓ courses for that. Yeah. but ours is only one that lasts 21 days. Yeah, but there's, ⁓ I'd say that in everything almost there's more competition today. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, for sure. you're basically providing, you're selling tools to gold miners while the gold miners are the bot companies. They have the competition, you sell the tools. So that's a good competition to be in. Tamara Simić: Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, nowadays there's a lot. Technology and a lot of apps for the yachting industry. So we have in that terms, we have also competition there because you have a lot of apps and you need to show the people why you're different because yours actually work and to work ⁓ you need to have some kind of experience and knowledge and know how of the market. Oleksij Rak: Yep. you Tamara Simić: That's why I'm saying I believe we have a good know-how and good knowledge of the market because we are in between. And this wasn't easy to build this app. Actually, ⁓ we collaborate with one IT firm on the app and their founder was on some kind of TV show last week and he was talking about our app and he told them... Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: no AI could do this. I mean you need people who did this for more than 20 years and that's the key for us. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, you need to have all this knowledge base and you need to have deep understanding of industry to able to build something. And if you're talking about like deep understanding, what are the most common patterns of issues? Tamara Simić: Yes. They understand. Yes. Okay. Like with each other? Issues. Yeah. Also something repetitive that we get to. Well, honestly. Well, honestly, day to day it can get pretty intense because we are managing a lot of moving parts at the same time. So we work with a large number of crews across different locations. Oleksij Rak: Yes, that attaching your business. No, something repetitive that's again and again repeats. Quite likely some human error, whatever, but there is something that repeats. Tamara Simić: and things can change really quickly for us because of the weather, because of the last minute client requests, because of crew availability. So a big part of our job is actually staying flexible and reacting fast, but of course without dropping the quality. and seasonality and unpredictable market also here plays a huge roles. and we are dealing with working with so many people so we are trying to have rules and structure that's actually super important for us because without that things can get messy very quickly so we try to keep things flexible but within a clear framework so yeah And yes, we are also trying to reduce manual input because with reducing manual input, less errors. So yeah, and I'd say on my point, more personal level, I'd say for me actually challenge is managing multiple projects at the same time because it's hard. You're not just trying to grow one firm, for example, Skipper for you. Oleksij Rak: No. Tamara Simić: We'll also build the crew app and at the same time developing long story short. So we are pushing growth in several directions at once and we are really small company and dynamic company. So yeah, that is, I think the big part of my role, I'd say is just to create clarity, to make sure sure everyone knows what matters most. Oleksij Rak: them. I feel you about all that contact between different directions. Tamara Simić: very going and keeping everything under control but still allowing space for growth. Yeah. Thank you. Yes and that balance between structure, growth, control, flexibility that is the probably most challenging thing to do but also exciting. Oleksij Rak: Like you mentioned a lot of issues with the screws, availability, last minute requests, how big team of the crew are you managing? How many people are you managing? Tamara Simić: Managing. So our company is pretty small because in the office we have two offices, one in Zagreb and the other one in Split ⁓ because everything is happening on the coast of course. But we are managing like I'd say around 300 crew members. Not all at the same time but yeah like 300 yeah a lot. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. 300 That's a lot. How do you deal with... I've heard the term of crew burnouts because like a lot of time with the client on a boat they need to the client's needs, they live as a family and sometimes crew burns out and just leaves when they get to the shore goodbye and leave. Did you experience something like that? Do you see it as an issue? Tamara Simić: Well, crew is there for the guests. I mean, this is not mega yachts or it's sailing yachts, catamaran. So just to clarify it from 35 feet to I'd say 65 feet. So Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: This is more relaxed. So people usually take skipper because it's mandatory. And then they take maybe a hostess or a chef depending on their demands. But they like to speak with the locals because usually most of the crews are locals and they try to get the information and they just adjust. mean, our crews go through our skipper academy. so we just we don't learn them how to do maneuvers we learn them how to ⁓ how to be prepared to manage the guests because you need to sometimes to speak with them directly and to see what they wish some of them wish okay we want to go on a dinner alone and some of them want to spend time with the crew members Oleksij Rak: So Tamara Simić: So basically we don't have a lot of problems in that terms because as I told you if there is any problem our crews contact us and we handle it if it's needed but in terms of this it's not a huge problem because people are relaxed they came to the holiday and usually if they know what they don't want to they communicate that with the crew. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: and the just needs to respect it. So we didn't have some big issues with it, but we had some issues because, for example, people come with kids and they expect that the crew will take care of the kids, but that's not why they are there. So in these situations, they usually call us and we try to find the solution. Oleksij Rak: Yep. Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: talking to the charter also because it's their booking of course and we try to handle it but no we didn't have like some huge huge things regarding that because I think if it's communicated well then it's fine for example we have like comments in our app where the charter can leave comments and us can leave comments and it's visible to the crew so if the people told the charter, okay, we would like some privacy, we don't want that crew is always on the boat. Okay, we just need to give that information to the crew because that's why it's important to have everything centralized. And if the crew has the information, they know how to react. Oleksij Rak: Okay, and do you have any of such requests like occurring or usually there are no requests during the trip? Tamara Simić: the requests from the guests. Oleksij Rak: from the guests, from the crew, like all this micro-adding-of challenges. Tamara Simić: Special requests? Well, yeah, well, there are. I mean, it's so dynamic. We have a lot of problems during the season, especially because people are not informed well and they want to go from, I don't know, split to the gormick in one day. So you need to be well prepared and Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Tamara Simić: you need to explain to people what's possible, what's not possible but also I believe for example we do a lot of events also like incentives, team buildings and stuff like that for companies especially sailing for example and I think it's important to hear all their wishes and try to ⁓ try to do all they want but in the clear framework because some things are simply not possible and that's it so you try to do your best and the crew always knows they try to do their best but in some framework so yeah Oleksij Rak: I also seen on your website that you provide some kind of last minute crew rental services. How do you handle that? In high season that's quite hard to probably find a crew. Tamara Simić: Yeah, well, we have a big pool of crew. So yeah, because of that mainly and because of the app, of course. But I'd say ⁓ that my colleagues in Split, are masters in that and they have some logical flow of the things and they know ⁓ they actually know in advance Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Tamara Simić: which week could be crazy and they just try to prepare themselves. So in terms of last minutes, usually we cover mostly everything and we find solutions. For example, if there is a, I don't know, last minute in Spain, we can always send someone from Croatia. So we just find, okay, let's find tickets with... Oleksij Rak: and Tamara Simić: which are cheap, you go fly there, then we will give you more than one week. You can work there for several weeks. So we always try and we just try to keep it flexible and react fast. mean, during the season, you just need to react fast and we have experience, so that's good. So during the years, all those problems were easier to handle. so you always find some kind of the solution and in the end we are always trying I mean those are our partners we collaborate with them for years now so we always try to help each other so that's why they think we are reliable partner I would say because mostly we always find the solution Oleksij Rak: Yeah, With regards to all this knowledge that you mentioned, do you store all the knowledge somewhere in some CRM system or anything? All this repetitive customer support requires that you have problems that you are solving continuously. Because nowadays the trend is usage of AI agents on top of all that information. all that knowledge base of that AI agent can instantly solve, react to common repetitive, not maybe to all of them, but to a big fraction, maybe half of them can be easily covered. But for that, you need to have knowledge somewhere. Tamara Simić: ⁓ why we think the experience is important because AI and technology will do all the things and but you need to give the AI and technology good input ⁓ I believe that's why we are good to give the technology right input. because in some points it's not so easy for us to handle it and how would AI know that? So I think it's very important to give good input to technology and AI because in the future, yes, of course, mean, ⁓ crew dispatching will probably be handled in a year or two by ⁓ AI dispatcher. I mean, we know that. But I think that's why, like we started to develop this app in 2018. Yeah, but it was a simple app. We are small firm and then we got one in angel investor and we developed a real app available on Google play and on iOS. But we are the ones that's why we've built the app. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Tamara Simić: because I think we are the ones who can make the structure for the AI. But we are prepared for that. mean, dispatching will be handled by AI. That's the future. We know that. But also, I'd say in our nautical tourism and in the yachting, still human touch is pretty important. So it's important. that we know who is going to be the crew and that we know is he capable of do that task because not everything you put in the system not everything is that easy to dispatch that then so I believe that human touch is also important because for example our nautical academy Oleksij Rak: Yep. Tamara Simić: ⁓ We are trying everything. We do a lot of ads, pop-ups in the shopping center to have more people in the academy but usually the touch point for them is when they speak to my colleague who is sitting in split. They always say that the lady, she is the one who convinced us. So yeah, I think we just need to adjust. I mean, times are changing. need to just, we need to learn about technology. We have two developers in the firm. So they are constantly learning new skills. And today you can, ⁓ now we are trying to have AI chat bot and everything. But even that, it's not that simple as people think because that AI chat bot needs to be reliable. you need to trust him. And if you ask him one, two questions, he doesn't know how to reply, so people don't trust it anymore. So that's why it's important to give as much as of that experience we have in the technology. Oleksij Rak: ⁓ Yeah. call it some kind of hybrid approach when ⁓ majority of work is done by AI and on top of that, some human touch. Awesome. If stepping back, talking about market trends, you mentioned the shift of seasonality, not seasonality, but looking seasonality. Tamara Simić: Good. Yes. ⁓ Yes, of course. Demand, yeah. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I've experienced and I've heard very similar shift in ⁓ cruise ship industry. ⁓ Because like peak months, December, January, somehow they shifted. And in your opinion, why is that? Is it because ⁓ supply of the boats is higher or is there some different reason? Tamara Simić: ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ of the five of the problems. or something else? Shifting booking behavior? Well, I think, as I told you, I think it's heavily influenced by global uncertainty in our case, because there's economic pressure, there's geopolitical situations. people, a few years ago, people booked their holiday a lot in advance. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: so they booked it like five months in advance and nowadays no they book it like in last minute few weeks before departure because they are not sure anymore actually after the covid that that trend slightly started but now it's huge and also as i told you ⁓ discounts have become quite more aggressive because in Croatia now they can go up to almost 30%. So some people are just waiting, okay, maybe I can book a good catamaran for 30 % less. Let's wait. I booked it that way last year. Maybe this year will be the same. So there's a few factors, I believe, because change in that shift and that is making our job Oleksij Rak: ⁓ huh. Tamara Simić: harder but also because of the technology it's nowadays it's much easier to handle it. Oleksij Rak: Because like in the US it was common to book during December is Thanksgiving, Christmas, and then people are planning the next year. In Germany, for what I know, people were used to do it in January. They planned the year. And from what I hear, shifted because of discounts, Is it also something like generational? Is it because Tamara Simić: Yeah. Gen ⁓ Z. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, Gen Z younger generation coming into play and then take immediate decision. Tamara Simić: Well, probably yes. I mean, to say the truth, yes, because Gen Z is completely different generation. They want everything instantly now and everything connected. If they talk to you on phone, they want some kind of software to remember everything. So when they WhatsApp to you, they want to continue conversation where it ended so they want everything connected so yeah Gen Z they want instantly and also much more personalized I would say so they are their demands are higher but also I believe the Gen Z regarding the AI the Gen Z ⁓ likes to see reviews Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: And the Gen Z likes to see real content, user generated content, because they are the ones using all the platforms that we have now. And it's easy for them. They have different thinking than the generations before millennials, for example, because they are everything checking so fast and they are used to it. So I think... Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: they check with the AI. And then when they check with the AI, then they go to social networks and then they check and see, can we trust them not? And then maybe they contact you. So I think it's a process to keep those customers and to make them customers. Oleksij Rak: What other market trends and sizes do you see besides shifted booking cycle or Gen Z AI? What else do you see? Tamara Simić: Well, AI is pretty important. ⁓ Also, I would say ⁓ content, because people would like to see authentic content. And as I told you, user-generated content. And it's not that easy to make content nowadays. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Tamara Simić: because there are so many information, so many contents, so many apps, people are deleting apps, they are filtering what they want to read. So I think we all need to put more effort in creating content which can be seen because if the content is created by someone who who really wants to show what's important, then that content is for your niche, it's great. So probably it will be interesting for the person who is checking it. But if the content is only AI, I don't think it's that interesting for the people to consume it. So people are thinking what do they consume and they want... Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Yeah. Tamara Simić: to see nowadays more than ever, they want to see faces behind the brand. That's why people are always asking who will be my crew, who will be my crew. They want to see that person. They want to check them on social media, on Facebook, on Instagram. So yeah, they want to see who is behind the service. And that's why I think it's important for the people to show them. For example, our academy, ⁓ we have instructors who works for us more than 16 years. So that's important information because of that people can trust you. And a lot of people can tell you, yeah, I've been in this course, it's great. ⁓ Eddie, for example, he is great instructor. So I think video is very important but it must be authentic, it must be. Nowadays you need to show the people that you put an effort in the content you are providing them. That's why people like to watch bloopers and stuff like that. They want to see what's behind everything so I think that's very important for the Gen Z also. Oleksij Rak: Since role is in operations, ⁓ what is one or two things you would like to get fixed with snap of your finger ⁓ in your business? Tamara Simić: Okay. Well, as I told you, more information should be centralized. It's hard to do that. Especially when it's hard to manage people to use some kind of different software or anything different, especially if those people are not the people from the office. If those people are from, for example, from the Marina, like technician. or cleaning lady, they are not used to open their phone, open their app, but I think that's something the nautical industry needs to change because then we will reduce errors, less manual work for everyone and better experience for the guests, which is most important of all. And for us, ⁓ I think that... the companies that will win will be the ones that manage to combine technology with that human layer. I think you can automate processes, but as I told you, you still need trust. You still need relationships and real experiences behind it. Oleksij Rak: Thanks a lot, Tamara. That was a really great conversation. Before we wrap it up, we touched a lot of everything, frankly. Before we wrap it up, is there anything you would like to add on top of that? Tamara Simić: Thank you. Thank you. Hopefully. No, I think we covered mostly what we talked about. So I hope you get a little bit of insight of the industry from me. So yeah, thank you for your time. you. you. And good luck to you too. Thank you. Oleksij Rak: And thank you too. Thanks a lot for coming. Have a great day. Good luck with what you're building there. Yeah.