Latest / Drawn of History / Sam Altman _ This Past Weekend w_ Theo Von _599(M4A_128K)

Transcript

Sam Altman _ This Past Weekend w_ Theo Von _599(M4A_128K) · Drawn of History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today's guest is, well, dude's a straight-up tech lord, let's
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: be honest. He's one of the leaders, the world leaders,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: in the development of AI. He started OpenAI, which is
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: known for having chat GPT. We had a fascinating chat
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: about the pros and cons, the fears and hopes, everything
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I could learn about artificial intelligence and where we're headed today. TBD, baby.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Today's guest is Mr. Sam Altman, and I'm very thankful
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: for his time.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: You know, we had a residential architect do this office.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: We wanted it to feel like someone's like really comfortable,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: like country house or something like that. Not like the
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: big corporate like sci-fi castle.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was– I was like a little
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: bit like, oh, is it going to be– will there
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: be a drawbridge? Will we be uploaded into a suite?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Like what will happen to us?
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want that. We're going for like residential.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like how do we even get through
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: the firewall? How many like hit points will we need
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: to get through? It got very Dungeons and Dragons in
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: some of my like imagination sometimes.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: We want people to feel like super comfortable and try
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: to get pretty far in that direction.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: It feels like it. And your staff is very sweet,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: nice people. You have– thanks for hanging out, man.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Thanks for coming to do this.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Yeah, I haven't seen you since
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I fell out of my chair.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: You fell out of the chair at the inauguration. That
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: was really like quite a way to meet you.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I felt so embarrassed. And you were one of
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the faces that I looked up and saw and I
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: was like, God. And that was my first moment like
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: AI built us a better chair to be honest with you.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And you did nothing, right? You were just sitting there
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and it just collapsed.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I remember that.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: And it was just so embarrassing. I was like, oh,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: of all people, me, and here I am in this place.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I think it was perfect because everybody's got to have
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: some story. When people are like, oh, what was the inauguration?
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Everybody's got to have some story to tell.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: And that was an incredible story for us all to tell.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. I do remember looking at people
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: for help, though. And oddly, your eyes, I was like, oh,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: my God. He could help. You did look like a
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: beacon of help in the distance.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I tried to help.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: You have a baby. You have a new child. It is.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: There have been like a lot of experiences in life
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: where everyone tells you something's going to be great. And
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: then it's like, okay, the people are right. The consensus
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: is right. It's like even better than I thought it
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: was going to be. But this has been the strongest
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: example of that ever. Like I knew it was going
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: to be great. And it's like way, way better. It's
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: impossible to describe. There's nothing I can say that's not
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: like very cliche. And it's totally amazing.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: What is like one of your– and it's a– you
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: have a young boy?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: And what's something like that you think is like neat
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: or like what's one thing that kind of like is
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: bringing you joy with it?
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Watching the speed with which he like learns new things
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: or gains new capabilities.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: It's just unbelievable. It's like every day it's like, Oh man,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: he just couldn't do that before. And now he's like
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: grabbing stuff and passing between his hands and, uh, getting
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: to like watch it day to day is just an
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: amazing rate of change. And then I don't like, again,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I realize it's like, I, you know, I realized that
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: like everything about babies are, very finely tuned over a
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: long period of evolution to make us like love them
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: and be fascinated by them and it's like a neurochemical
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: hack but I love it it's great it's so strong
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: it's so intense.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: So it's really like almost like a coffee for your
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: heart or something kind of.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how to find I've tried to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: like come up with an analogy to tell because now
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: I'm like telling everybody you gotta have a lot of
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: kids it's really important yeah and I've been looking for
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: an analogy of what to explain and then I always
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: just say like I don't know how to explain this
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: it's just it is the best thing I've ever done
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: by far I feel like completely changed person. And I was,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I was like thinking the other day, like there used
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: to be all these other, like at this point, all
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I do is work and hang out with my family.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: I like, I don't, I don't like really get to
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: do a lot of hobbies anymore.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Busy time at work. I don't get to hang out
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: with my friends that much. And I, and I don't,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: you know, there were like all these things that people
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: tell you like, Oh, you got a baby coming. You
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: got to go, you know, take that spontaneous international trip.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Cause you're not gonna be doing that again for a
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: long time. And I was like, oh, that is kind
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: of sad. In practice, you don't do it that often,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: or I at least didn't do it that often, and
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I don't miss it at all. I, like, remember that
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: that used to be a possibility. Now I can see
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: that's not going to be a possibility for a long time,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: and I'm thrilled with the trade.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: You're moved on.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: How old is your child?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Four months.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a funny, like, at five or six months,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: they start to get, like, fun, and you can, like,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: they're still, like, they can't go anywhere, you know? But they're, like,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: intrigued and stuff. They start to, like, smile or process more.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know how you guys say it.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's totally like turned on now.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Really aware, understands things. It's super cool.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I have a thought sometimes that this will be one
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: of the last like maybe 40 years that we conceive
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: children in the body. Did you have any thoughts about that?
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I've definitely heard a lot of people say that. I
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: haven't thought about it hard myself, but yeah, I guess
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: it does make sense. Like I guess that does make sense.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Like, God, you were in your mom's butt. It's crazy,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: you know? It is crazy. You pervert or whatever. Like,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: I think in the future, people will be– it will
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: be kind of done like in a– In a vat
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: or something. Yes. In like a nice vat. You can
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: go see it on the weekends or whatever.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Doesn't that just feel like off to you? Like I
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: can totally intellectually like understand that that may be the
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: better way to do it.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. It feels way off to me. I was
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: trying to– I thought you would like it. You know,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I thought, I mean, like, or I thought that would
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: be like a thought, like, I guess like that for me,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: that's one of like my futuristic thoughts, you know?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Like I can totally accept that that will be what
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: everybody does and that it's, you know, easier and we
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: can like make it healthier for the child and the mother,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: you know, the mother doesn't take the health risk, but,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: but man, so intellectually I can say that. And then
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: like emotionally it feels like something is off.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: It feels off. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because then
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: the family– like on the weekends, the parents would come
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: and like tinker on the glass or whatever. Or their
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: dad would put like a Go Falcon sticker on the thing.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? People would like decorate it
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: all up or write little messages on there.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: You know, I think there's another– like another take I
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: have on all of this is that in this world
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: that we're heading to of like crazy sci-fi technology becoming reality,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: the sort of like– the deeply human things will become
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: the most precious, sacred, valued things.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: And that we'll really care about like the human experience
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: more than ever and maybe it won't go that way.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you– no, and that's some of the stuff
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: we want to talk about and thanks so much, man,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: for sitting down. Do you think your child will go
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to college? Do you think like– what do you kind
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: of think that looks like?
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  Speaker 2: Probably not if I had to guess. Like I think– well,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: I only went to half of college. Did you drop out? Yeah.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Dude, you guys all– I freaking dropped out. I didn't
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: get shit. You dropped out. Wang dropped out. Zuckerberg dropped out.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Probably a lot of other people.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: And you. Yeah. Well, hey, we're both here, so.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, it worked out fine.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: You're right. Never mind. I'm sorry I'm being self-defeating. Yeah,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: what does that look like when you think about that? Like, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: with AI, with so much new information coming online, right,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: and so much, like, data being collected and, like, information
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: being carpooled, maybe which is a term.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: So you and I never grew up in a world
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: that didn't have computers. And our parents were like, oh,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: there weren't computers. And then there were, and it was
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: this big, crazy adjustment. It took them a long time
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: to figure it out. But to us, computers just always existed.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe they were kind of new, but they were always around.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: And then a kid that is like, there was this
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: video on YouTube I saw, like maybe 12 years ago,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: something like that, that 14 years ago that has really
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: stuck with me. It was like a little baby in
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: a dentist waiting room or something, picking up one of
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: those old glossy magazines and going like this.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, I remember that.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: And to that kid, it was just like a broken
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: iPad because that kid had just like grown up in
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: a world where like there were touchscreens everywhere. And my
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: kid will never grow up, will never ever be smarter
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: than an AI.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: That will never happen. You know, kid born a few
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: years ago, they had a brief period of time. My
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: kid never will be smarter, but also they'll never, they'll
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: never know a world where like products and services aren't
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: way smarter than them and super capable. They can just
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: do whatever you need. And in that world, I think
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: education is going to feel very different. I already think
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: college is like maybe not working great for most people,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I think fast forward 18 years, it's going
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: to look like a very, very different thing.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, do you think there will– oh, here's that
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: video right here of this kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: I was wrong about the dentist. Or maybe there's a
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: few of these.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: He's like, somebody charge this magazine. He's yelling. How would
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: you recommend to a parent right now to prepare their
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: children for like an AI future? Kind of like are
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: there certain curtails that you would start to put in now?
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Are there certain like adjustments where you like get them
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: in a certain training or have them start to watch
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: certain models of things online? Like what is that?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I actually think the kids will be fine. I'm worried
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: about the parents. If you look at the history of
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the world here when there's new technology, like people that
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: grow up with it, they're always fluent. They always figure
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: out what to do. They always learn the new kind
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: of jobs. But if you're like a 50-year-old and you
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: have to like kind of learn to do things in
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: a very different way, that doesn't always work. So I
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: think the kids are going to be fine. I mean
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I do have worries about kids and technology. Like I
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: think this scrolling, the kind of like short video feed
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: dopamine hit, it feels like it's probably messing with kids'
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: brain development in a super deep way. So it's not
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: that I have no worries. I have extremely deep worries
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: about what technology is doing to kids. But in terms
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: of kids' ability to be prepared for the future and
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: use a new technology, they seem really good at that.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Always through history.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: That's a good point, actually. Yeah, it's like if you
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: just grow up with it, it's just totally normal. It's
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: like having kneecaps or whatever. You're just kind of used
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: You can't imagine the world where it doesn't exist.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. That's a good point.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: I remember when I was in school, in junior high,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: and Google first came out. And all the teachers freaked out.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: And they're like, this is the end of education. Why
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: do you have to memorize facts in history class if
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: you can just look them up instantly on the internet?
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: You don't even have to learn to go to the library.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: And the answer is, yeah, maybe memorization is less important.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: But with these new tools, you can think better, come
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: up with new ideas, do new stuff. I'm sure the
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: same thing happened with the calculator before. And, you know,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: now this is like, this is just a new tool
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: that exists in the tool chain.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: And what about like, say if there is somebody that's
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: like learning history right now, like they just started their
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: second year of college. Oh, that Celsius. Yeah, that thing
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: will definitely, you won't be able to blink for a month, homie.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: That thing will, yeah, you'll sneeze and release 5.0, dude.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: You'll frigging, are you guys at 4.5 already?
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: We're 4.5 already. 5.0 is, I think it's going to
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: be great.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, it'll come out fast if you add that Celsius.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Maybe the researchers need it, not me, but, you know,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: we'll get them some.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that thing will get you there, man. Um, so
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: say there's somebody just, for example, like there's learning history
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: right now, they're in their second year of college, they're good.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: They're taking history. Is that, are there some subjects in like,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: like they, they're going to be a historian? Is that
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: still a viable space of work, uh, as AI moves forward?
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Do you think honestly, I.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Assume there will be some version of it that is, uh, I,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's very hard to predict exactly how something evolves. Um,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Or predict exactly what the jobs of the future are
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: going to.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Be.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Not that long ago, it would have been very hard
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: to predict either of our jobs. If you go back
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: 100 years, the idea of this CEO of an AI
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: company or a podcaster probably would have been things that
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: didn't seem to be the most obvious evolutions of the
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: things people were doing at the time.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you just seemed almost probably crazy even in trying
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: to explain those to someone.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: You would. And now, in fact, two of the jobs–
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I heard that the job that young people most want
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: is some version of your job. The job that young
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: people most want is to be a podcast influencer, YouTube.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: They want a YouTube channel, like whatever it is. Like six, seven-year-olds,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: they don't know how to describe it, but that's what
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: they want. And a lot of people also want my job.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: They want to do like a startup or they want
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: to work on AI.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: These just didn't exist. So like the rate with which
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the new things come along is fast and also trying
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: to predict what they are. I don't know. The thing
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I say all the time is no one knows what
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: happens next. It's like we're going to figure this out.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: It's this weird emergent thing. Does the current job of
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: a historian exist in the same way? I'll bet not quite.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: But another thing I believe is that humans are obsessed
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: with other people. Like we are so deeply wired to
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: care about other people, to care about stories and history,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: our own history. is extremely interesting to us. So I
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: would say somehow or other, we're still going to care
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: about that. There's going to be some kind of job
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: doing that.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Man, that's cool. I guess when I take that avenue
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: of thought, like, okay, there will still be this historian
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: or somebody, it'll be some evolution of that, right? That
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: does seem kind of cool to me because there's a
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: level of creativity in there. There's a level of like
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: faith and spontaneity in there that I think is kind
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: of exciting. So yeah, I guess I hadn't really thought
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: about that. Sometimes I get stuck in this doomsday thing.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Like I just see like, you know, like the history
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: book closes and they're like, we have enough. We have
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: all the history over here, you know?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: You know, people used to say like, oh, there's no
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: need for more music. We've made perfect music. Like why
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: does anyone need anyone to create anymore? And that's obviously ridiculous.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Or they would say there's that famous patent office quote,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: everything that humans ever possibly need has been invented. There's
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: nothing left to do.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: I have heard that. But here we are.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Here we are. And like someone asked me the other day, like,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: you know, how long is it until you can make
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: like a AI, AI CEO for open AI? And I
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: was like, probably not that long. And they were like, well,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: aren't you really sad about that? And I was like, no,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I think it's awesome. I'm for sure going to figure
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: out something else to do. I'm excited to do that. Like,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: I think that's great.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Right. So you could create something that would have your job,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: but then you could do something else. Totally. But then
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: how do you know that you'll still get paid for
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: your job? I guess like, Well– It's kind of a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: big question.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: I kind of think that– But yeah, I.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Guess the framing of that question might be better. Like
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: say there are jobs that get curtailed by.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: There will be some.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: OK.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's important to be honest about that. There
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: will be some jobs that totally go away. But mostly
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I think we will rely on the fact that people's
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: desire for more stuff, for better experiences, for a higher
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: social status or whatever, that seems basically limitless. Human creativity
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: seems basically limitless. And human desire to like be useful
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: to each other and to connect with each other and
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: do stuff for each other and focus on other people
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: seems pretty limitless too. So I think throughout all of history,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: there have been these predictions like, ah, you know, we're gonna,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: we're gonna like all be on the beach and work
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: an hour a day or hour a week or whatever.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And we're going to have unlimited wealth. And I've never
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: heard that one.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: I would, I love that.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, they used to say this, they used to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: say like the industrial revolution, people were like, oh, you know,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: We've just figured out how to automate like man's lot
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: in life. There's nothing left to do. We're going to
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: have these machines do all the work.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: It makes sense probably.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: And you watch these machines doing all this stuff that
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: only people used to physically do. And everybody panicked and
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: said there's going to be no more jobs. And we
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: figured out new stuff to want. Now here's an interesting thing.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: If you could go back to that industrial revolution time
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and people before that were really on the grind, working
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: super hard trying to like kind of have enough food
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: to survive. Go back to those people. look at our
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: jobs today. Would those people say we have real jobs?
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Or would they say you have unbelievable abundance, unbelievable wealth,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: so much food to eat, incredible luxury. And you guys
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: are just like playing a game to entertain yourselves. Is
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: that a real job or not? And they would probably
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: say where they sit, what you guys do is not
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: a real job. You guys are, you know, you're too rich.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: You're wasting your time. You're trying to like.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys are a couple of dang zest lords
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: out there freaking playing Uno in the park or whatever.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: They would not– I don't think my grandfather would be like,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: you have a job. He would still be like, you
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: need to get a job.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And when we look forward to another 100 years of
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: what people are doing, they'll probably think they're working very hard.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: It will feel very satisfying, very intense to them. They're
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: really like– they'll feel engaged. They'll be making other people happy.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: They'll be creating value for each other. But if we
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: could look forward to 100 years of those guys– Do
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you think we would say they're working or like, man,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: you have like AI doing everything for you. You're just
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: trying to entertain yourselves.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, oh, you guys have it so easy. Right.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: But I think that's beautiful. I think it's great that
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: those people in the past think we have it so easy.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's great that we think those people in
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: the future have it so easy. Like that is the
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: beautiful story of us all contributing to human progress and
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: everybody's lives getting better and better.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Say we're able to get to that space, right? Like
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the movement that happens with AI and with just technology,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: which will advance quicker, I think, which is, One thing
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: that AI feels like to me, it's a fast forward
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: button on technology and on possibility because things can be,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: information can be quantified so quick and a lot of
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: like more menial tasks, even though they're not really menial
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: in people's lives, but menial hypothetically can be done quicker
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to get a lot of the framework for things done fast.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: But how will people survive? Like, how do we adjust
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: our structure of finance, of like, if some people own
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the companies that have the AI and then a lot
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: of people are just using the AIs and the agents
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: created by AIs to do things for them, how will society,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: like societal members, still be able to financially survive? Will
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: there still be money? What is that? Does that make
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: any sense, that question?
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: It totally makes sense. Okay, sorry. I don't know. Neither
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: does anybody else. But I'll tell you my current best guess.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll say two guesses. One, I think it is
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: possible that we put– you know, GPT-7 or whatever in
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: everybody's chat GPT. Everybody gets it for free. And everybody
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: has access to just this like crazy thing such that
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: everybody can be more productive, make way more money. It
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: doesn't actually matter that you don't like own the cluster itself,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: but everybody gets to use it. And it turns out
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: even getting to use it is enough that people are
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: like getting richer faster and more distributed than ever before.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: That could happen. I think that really is possible. There's
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: another version of this where the most important things that
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: are happening are these systems are discovering, you know, new
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: cures for diseases, new kinds of energy, new ways to
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: make spaceships, whatever. And most of that value is accruing
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: to the like cluster owners us, just so that I'm
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: not dodging the question here. And then I think society
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: will very quickly say, okay, we got to have some new,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: some new economic model where we share that and distribute
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: that to people. Uh, I used to be really excited
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: about things like UBI. I still am kind of excited,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: like universal basic income where you just give everybody money.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you hear that term a lot. Yeah, universal basic income. Yeah,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I heard you and Rogan talk about that too a
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: while back.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: I still am kind of excited about that, but I
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: think people really need agency. Like they really need to
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: feel like they have a voice in governing the future
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: and deciding where things go. And I think if you
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: just like say, okay, AI is going to do everything
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: and then everybody gets like a, you know, dividend from that,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: it's not going to feel good. And, and I don't
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: think it actually would be good for people. So I
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: think we need to find a way where we're not
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: just like, if we're in this world where we're not
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: just distributing money or wealth, like actually. I don't just
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: want like a check every month. What I would want
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: is like an ownership share, you know, whatever the AI
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: creates so that I feel like I'm participating in this
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: thing that's going to compound and get more valuable over time.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: So I sort of like universal basic wealth better than
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: universal basic income. And I think I don't like basic either.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I want like universal extreme wealth for everybody. Um, But
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: even then, like I think what people really want is
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: the agency to kind of co-create the future together. And
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: in a world where it's like the AI is mostly
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: coming up with the new scientific inventions, at least we've
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: got to still have humans like invent the new culture
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: and have that be a very distributed thing. Okay.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I guess– yeah, I see what you're saying. But would
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: that be like an American thing do you think? Like
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: since they were invented here or do you think– I'm
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: just wondering what does that look like, you know?
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: The economic model of it all or the whole thing?
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or like is there a dividend of the company
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: that then is divided up between the masses sort of?
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I mean a crazy idea, but in the spirit of
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: crazy ideas, is that if the world– there's like roughly
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: 8 billion people in the world. If the world can
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: generate like 8 quintillion tokens per year, if that's the
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: world– actually, let's say the world can generate 20 trillion tokens.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: 20 quintillion tokens per year tokens of like uh each
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: word generated by an ai okay just making up a
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: huge number here okay we'll say okay 12 of those
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: go to you know the normal capitalistic system but eight
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: of those eight quintillion tokens are going to get divided
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: up equally among eight billion people so everybody gets one
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: trillion tokens and that's your kind of universal basic wealth
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: globally And people can sell those tokens. Like if I
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: don't need mine, I can sell them to you. We
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: could pool ours together for some like new art project
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: we want to do. But instead of just like getting
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: a check, everybody on earth is getting like a slice
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: of the world's AI capacity. And then we're letting the
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: like massively distributed human ingenuity and creativity and economic engine
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: do its thing. I mean that's like a crazy idea.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's a bad one. But that's the kind of
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: thing that I think sounds like someone should think about
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: it more.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: One of the big fears is like purpose, right? Like
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: human purpose, like work gives us purpose. And also I
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: think the idea that we are the ones advancing humanity
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: gives us purpose. Like we are the, like, yeah, like
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: we have some control over our own destiny maybe gives
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: us this sense of purpose. And it feels like that
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: we would lose a sense of purpose or that purpose
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: would be adjusted to like if AI is to really,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: you know, continue to advance so quickly, it feels like
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: our sense of purpose would start to really disappear. Do you,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: have you had thoughts about that?
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I worry about this a lot. It's so, I think
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: people have worried about this with every big technological revolution,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: but I agree that this time it feels different. Like, okay.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because if, say you had an ax and somebody
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: came out with a saw, you're.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Like, you're like, yeah, that's, or even if they come
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: out with like a robot that cuts the tree down,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: it still feels fine. But like, Creativity intelligence, I think,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: cuts so deeply at the core of whatever we are
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: and how we value ourselves. One example we can look
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: at this right now, I think one area where AI
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: is having a big impact is on how people write
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: software for a living. And AI is really good at that.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: It's really changed what it means to be a software developer.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard any of those software developers say that
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: even though their job is different, that they don't have meaning.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: They still enjoy it. They're operating at a higher level.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: And I'm hopeful, at least for a long time, you know,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: 100 years from now, who knows. But I'm hopeful that
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: that's what it'll feel like with AI is even if
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: we're asking it to solve huge problems for us, even
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: if we ask it to say like, you know, go
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: discover a cure for cancer, there will still be a
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: lot of things to do in that process that feel
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: valuable to a person. You're still asking it the questions.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: You're still like helping guide it. You're still framing it
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: or whatever it is. You're still like talking to the
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: world about it. And, and I think all of human
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: history suggests that we find a way to put ourselves
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: at the center of the story and feel really good
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: about it. Like, you know, if you kind of think
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: like we used to think that the earth was the
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: center of the solar system and then we're like very
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: human centric view. And then we're like, okay, fine. The
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: sun is the center of the solar system, but the
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: solar system is at least the center of the galaxy.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And now, oh man, there's a lot of galaxies. And
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: oh man, now we're this like tiny speck in this
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: like very huge universe. And yet we still manage to
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: feel all like a lot of main character energy. And
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: so I somehow think even in a world where AI
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: is doing all of this stuff that humans used to do,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: we are going to find a way in our own
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: telling of the story to feel like the main characters.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: And I think in an important sense, we will be.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: And that's really good. I also like, you know, probably
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: already today, there could be a very compelling version of
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: two AIs talking like this. And I don't think I'd
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: want to watch that. Like, I think I really do
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: feel deeply wired to like care about the real person
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: behind it. I think that's like deep in the biology.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. That's the part I think a lot of
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: times it's like, even though you can get into like
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: these wormholes of like possibility and these fear holes of
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: possibility or, um, kind of this dystopian ideas that in
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: the end, I'm like, I'd rather probably watch something that's real.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, because I'm real, you know what
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: I'm saying? Like, I don't want to talk really to
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: a robot. I'd, you know, yeah, I think in the end,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: there's going to be a part of you that wants
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to continue to just talk to, talk to humans. Do you,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: what's like one of your fears? Like, what's a fear
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: you have of AI? Like if you have like a
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: fearful space that it could go, like, I know you
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: mentioned a little bit.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: This morning, I was testing our new model and I
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: got a question. I got emailed a question that I
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: didn't quite understand. And I put it in the model,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: this GPT-5, and it answered it perfectly. And I really
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: kind of sat back in my chair and I was
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: just like, oh man, here it is moment. And I
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: got over it quickly. I got busy on to the
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: next thing. But it was like, I mean, it's what
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: kind of we're talking about. I felt like useless relative
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: to the ai and this thing that i felt like
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: i should have been able to do and i couldn't
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: it was really hard but the ai just did it
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: like that yeah it was it was a weird feeling.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah i think that's i think that feeling right there
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: that's the feeling a lot of people kind of have
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: like what's gonna you know when does it happen what's
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: gonna happen um but i think some of it is
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: it's like yeah you it's hard to conceptualize until you're
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: further along.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I i'm all totally i don't think we know quite
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: how that's gonna feel you just have to like approach
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: it step by step another thing i'm afraid of and
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: we had a you know a real problem with this
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: earlier but it can get much worse is just what
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: this is going to mean for users mental health um
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that talk to chat gbt
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: all day long there are these sort of new ai
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: companions that people talk to like they would a girlfriend
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: or a boyfriend um And we were talking earlier about
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: how it's probably not been good for kids to like
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: grow up like on the dopamine hit of scrolling.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Do you think that– how do you
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: keep like AI from having that same effect, like that
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: negative effect that social media really has had?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I'm scared of that. I don't have an answer yet.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think we know quite the ways in which
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: it's going to have those negative impacts. But I feel
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: for sure it's going to have some and we'll have
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: to– I hope we can learn to mitigate it quickly.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Can AIs, can they pull up pornography and stuff like
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: that too or no? Sure. Oh, my God. God, I
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: didn't know that. No, it's fine. Yeah, but I just, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: enter T-H-E-O to get 15% off your first order. That's
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: T-R-Y-A-R-M-R-A dot com slash Theo. What legal system does AI
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: have to work by? Is there like a legal– like
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: we have laws like in the world, right, like in
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: the human world. Does AI have to work by any
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: like legal laws, you know?
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think we will certainly need a legal
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: or a policy framework for AI. One example that we've
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: been thinking about a lot, this is like maybe not
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: quite what you're asking. This is like a very human-centric
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: version of that question. People talk about the most personal
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: shit in their lives to chat GPT. It's, you know,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: people use it, young people especially, like use it as
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: a therapist, a life coach, a having these relationship problems,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: what should I do? And right now, if you talk
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: those problems, there's like legal privilege for it. You know,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: like there's doctor-patient confidentiality, there's legal confidentiality, whatever. And we
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to ChatGPT.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: So if you go talk to ChatGPT about your most
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: sensitive stuff and then there's like a lawsuit or whatever,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: like we could be required to produce that. And I
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: think that's very screwed up. I think we should have
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: AI that we do with a therapist or whatever. And
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: no one had to think about that even a year ago.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And now I think it's this huge issue of like
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: how are we going to treat the laws around this?
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Well, do you think there should be like kind of
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: like a slowing things down before we move there kind of?
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Because yeah, that is kind of wild. It's one of
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: the reasons I get scared sometimes to use certain AI
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: stuff because I don't know how much personal information I
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: want to put in because I don't know who's going
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: to have it.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I think we need this point addressed with some urgency. And,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: you know, the policymakers I've talked to about it, like
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: broadly agree. It's just, it's new and now we got
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: to do it quickly. Do you talk to ChachiBT? I
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: don't talk to it that much. One of the main,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: one of my- It's because of this.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I think it is. It's because it's like- I think
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: it makes sense. To not talk to ChachiBT.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. To like really want the privacy clarity
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: before you use it a lot.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Like the legal clarity.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's scary. And it's like, well, how long does
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: it take lawmakers to come up with that? And then
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: it feels like it's moving so fast that it's like
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: it doesn't even– that sometimes it's like it doesn't even
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: really matter. It's like are we even waiting for the
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: laws to be put around this or what's going on?
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Does it feel like it's moving too fast for you sometimes?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: The last few months have felt very fast. It feels
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: faster and faster, but the last few months have felt
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: very fast.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was watching this guy, Yoshua Bengio?
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Yoshua Bengio.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Yoshua Bengio. And– He's kind of like some people call
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: him the father of AI. He may be self-proclaimed. I'm
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: not really sure. But he certainly seemed to be kind
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: of like a lifeguard for AI, like thinking about like, well,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: you know, how do we keep the pool safe? You know,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: how much water should be in it? You know, the chlorine, what,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: you know, how many lifeguards you need on duty, that
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: type of thing, hypothetically. And he said, and he was
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: saying that some AIs, they have like deception techniques inside
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: of them, like that. there were AIs that would rather
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: give you an answer that was possibly pleasing to the
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: user than to give them the factual answer. And then
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: he was also saying that there were AIs that were
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: developing some of their own languages to communicate with each other,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: which would be languages that we don't even know. What
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: is that? How do you guys curtail that when those
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: types of things come up? What does that even kind
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: of feel like to you guys? Are these just problems
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: that happen in new spaces and you figure it out
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: as you go.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: You know, there are these moments in the history of
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: science where you have a group of scientists look at
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: their creation and just say, you know, what have we done?
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's great, maybe it's bad, but what have we done?
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Like maybe the most iconic example is thinking about the
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: scientists working on the Manhattan Project in 1945, sitting there
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: watching the Trinity test and just, you know, this thing
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: that had, it was a completely new not human scale
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: kind of power and everyone knew it was going to
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: reshape the world. And I do think people working on
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: AI have that feeling in a very deep way. You know,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: we just don't know. Like we think it's going to
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: be great. There's clearly real risks. It kind of feels
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: like you should be able to say something more than that.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: But in truth, I think all we know right now
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: is that we have discovered, invented, whatever you want to
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: call it, Something extraordinary that is going to reshape the
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: course of human history.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Dear God, man. But if you don't know, we don't know. Well,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: of course.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I mean I think no one can predict the future.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Like human society is very complex. This is an amazing
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: new technology. Maybe a less dramatic example than the atomic
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: bomb is when they discovered the transistor a few years later.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: The transistor radio? The little transistor part that, you know,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: made computers and radios and everything else. But we discovered
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: this completely new thing that enabled the whole computer revolution
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: and is in this microphone and those computers and our
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: iPhones and like the world would be so different if
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: people had not discovered that and then over the decades
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: figured out how to make them smaller and more efficient.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: And now we don't even think about it because the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: transistors are just in everything. We have all this modern
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: technology from that one scientific discovery. And I do think
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: that's what AI is going to be like. We had
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: this one crazy scientific discovery that led to these language
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: models we all use now. And that is going to
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: change the course of society in all kinds of ways.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: And of course, we don't know what they all are. Damn.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I was hoping you knew by the end of that sentence.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: I was hoping you would, you know, like that's what we're,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: because we don't know, you know, like that's, I think
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: the tough thing.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: There's no time in human history at the beginning of
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: a century where the people ever knew what the end
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: of the century was going to be like.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: So maybe it's– I do think it goes faster and
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: faster each century. It's certainly like– in 1900, you couldn't
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: have predicted what 2000 was going to be like. I
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: think in 2000, you could even less predict what 2100
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: was going to look like. But that's kind of why
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: it's exciting and that's kind of why people get to
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: figure out and unfold the story as we go.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: It's kind of bizarre because there's a part of me
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: that's like this guy is out of his mind. This
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: guy is a wild wizard. There's a couple of different things.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: But then there's also this part of me that's like
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: this guy is this hopeful guy who's like involved in
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: this crazy space. And he kind of has this whimsical
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: energy about the future, which is in a crazy way.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: A nice energy to have about the future generally is
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: that something could happen or that things are possible. So
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: it just– yeah, it's all kind of like– I don't know.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating. It's definitely fascinating to me. Sam, to kind
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: of pivot a little bit, there's– it feels like there's
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: a race right now in AI, right? Would you say
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: that there's a race between companies and AI?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: It certainly feels that way.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And it almost feels like you guys are
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the new Formula One drivers or you guys are like
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: the new like it's like Mario Andretti or you guys
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: are the new like Bubba Watts and all that. You know,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: it's almost like these are the new race cars that
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: everybody's kind of watching position themselves. What is the race for?
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Because you hear about AI and then you hear about
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: AGI and then you hear about superintelligence. What is this
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: race that's going on? How real is it? And what
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: is the race for?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: When I was a kid, the race was like the
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: megahertz race and then it became the gigahertz race. Everybody
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: wanted a computer with a faster processor.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: You know, Intel would come out with this one and
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: then AMD would come out with this one. And it
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: turned out that those gigahertz measurements eventually were not even
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: that helpful. Like you could have one that had a
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: lower number and in practice it was faster. And eventually
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I think it was Apple that realized they should just
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: stop talking about the clock speed of their computers. And
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: you probably don't even know what the processor speed of
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: your iPhone is today.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that was a big thing and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: it kind of disappeared.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: And I think the same thing has been happening in
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: AI where everybody was racing on these benchmarks. You know,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: I score this on this benchmark and this on that one.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: And now people are realizing that like, okay, the benchmarks
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: are kind of saturated. We went through the equivalent of
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: our megahertz race with our benchmark race. And now people
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: kind of don't care about that as much. And now
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: it's like who's using the model, who's getting the value
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: out of it, things like that. But I do think
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: people still feel like we're heading towards some milestone. What
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: the milestone is, they disagree on, but maybe it's a
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: system that's capable of doing its own AI research and
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: its own sort of self-improvement. Maybe it's a system that
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: is like smarter than all of humans put together, but
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: they feel like there is some finish line to cross.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: I actually don't quite feel like this, but I think
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: a lot of people in the industry, that there's some
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: finish line that we're going to cross maybe it's this
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: like self-improvement moment maybe you call that super intelligence um
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: and i think there is a sort of there's like
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: a race to get somewhere but people don't agree on
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: where it's to or something.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: What are you racing towards you feel like.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: It's a great question um i don't have like a
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: finish line in mind there's nothing i could say to
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: that i don't think i can articulate anything where i
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: would say like This is mission complete. But if I
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: had to give like a self-referential answer there, the moment
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: where we would rather give our research cluster, like our
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: GPUs that we run all of our AI experiments on,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: the moment where we would rather give that to an
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: AI researcher rather than our brilliant team of human researchers,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: that does at least seem like some kind of very
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: different new era.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and at that point, who's even we? I
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: feel like it's just you kind of like wheeling the
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: stuff across the hall. You know what I'm saying? It
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: starts to get this idea like if things were to
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: keep leaving the people and go to the computer, you're
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: just shoveling coal into the AI hypothetically.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Again, I assume that what will happen like with every
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: other kind of technology is we'll realize like we don't.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: there's this one thing that the tool's way better than
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: us at. Now we've got to go solve some other problems,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: so let's put our brainpower there. I somehow don't think
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: it'll ever feel like we all just get to push
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: a button and go on vacation.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I think one version of this is as capabilities go up,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: because as we get better tools, the expectation goes way
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: up too. And so we've got to like, yes, we
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: get much better tools, but we have to do way
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: more to remain competitive.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I think there's this hopeful idea. Say if you
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: come up with all.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: These- Or maybe not. Maybe the AI is just better
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: than us at absolutely everything. We just sit there being like,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: all right, that was cool.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because at a certain point, if something has all
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: the information, right? If something has all the information, it
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: can think and ponder and pontificate and serve multi-options of answers.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Don't we then work in for that thing? That's what
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I start to wonder. If it's the smartest thing in the.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Room- GPT-5 is the smartest thing. GPT-5 is smarter than
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: us in almost every way. And yet, here we are.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: So there's something about the way the world works. There's
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: something about, this doesn't mean it's true forever, but there's
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: something about what humans can do today that is so different.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: There's also something about what humans care about today that
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: is so different than AI that I don't think the
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: simplistic thing quite works. Now, again, by the time it's
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: a million times smarter than us, who knows?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Is part of you want to kind of get there? Like,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: how do we get where like I open the door
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: and you, and I say, excuse me, sir. And it's
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: just my computer in there. You know what I'm saying?
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, when, when I was a kid, I,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I sort of thought about these technological revolutions that happened
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: one at a time. There was the agriculture revolution a
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: long time ago, and that freed us up to do
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: these other things. And then there was the like, There
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: was the Age of Enlightenment and there was the Industrial
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Revolution and there was the Computer Revolution and all these
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: things happened. And I thought of them as like these
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: distinct things. And now I view it as just this
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: one long compounding exponential where all of these things come together.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Each piece of technology is built continuously overlapping on the
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: one that comes before and we're able to just do
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: more and more. And so in some sense, AI is
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: this big, special, unique, different thing. And in some other sense,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: it is just part of this long arc of human progress.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: We talked about the transistor earlier, but that was way
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: more important in some sense to AI happening than the
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: work we do now. And all this stuff has to
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: compound and compound. You've got to build the internet. You've
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: got to get all this data. You've got to do
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: all these things.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And I.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Want that exponential to keep going. There will be things
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: way after AI. We'll invent all sorts of new things.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: We'll go colonize space. We'll go build neural interfaces. Who
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: knows what else we'll do? But I think at some point,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: AI fades into that arc of history. We don't even
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: think about it. It's like transistors, which we don't even
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: think about today. It's just another layer in the scaffolding
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: that humans collectively have built up bit by bit over time.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: And where you sit in our day, you get to
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: open that door. You have this computer that only has
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: one interface. It says, what do you want? You say
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: whatever you want. It happens. And you figure out amazing
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: new things to build for the next generation and the
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: next and the next. And we just keep going.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I think the part that I think gets spooky is
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I can't build any– I can build some stuff, but
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I can't build like any technological stuff. So then I'm like, dang, dude. Well,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to– what am I going to build
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: over there?
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: So right now, I can write software. Maybe you can't.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: And I have a little advantage if I want to
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: go build some technological thing. Very soon, you can make
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: any piece of software you want because you just ask
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: an AI in English. You say, I got an idea
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: for an app. Make me this thing. And the whole
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: thing just happens. So that's a win for you. Maybe
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: it's a little bit of a loss for me. I
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: think it's kind of cool for the whole world. But
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: this is going to be a technology that anybody can use.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: You can just, with natural language, you can say, this
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: is what I want. And it goes off and writes
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: the code for you, debugs it for you, deploys it
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: And then you can say, how do I use what
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: I just created? Yeah.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: But if you have a great idea, AI will just
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: make it happen for you. And this is a new thing.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: I think this will make technology the most accessible it
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: ever has been.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Got it. okay, then that seems a little bit different.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I think there's this idea in my head that I'm
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: going to have to figure out all this coding. I'm
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: going to figure out all of this different ways to
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: do things to even have a possibility of use of
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: myself in the future.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: No, I think this is, without talking too much about
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: the future and what we're going to launch, the fact
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: that you will be able to have an entire piece
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: of software created just by explaining your idea is going
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: to be incredible for humans getting great new stuff Because
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: right now, I think there's a lot more good ideas
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: than people who know how to make them. And if
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: AI can do that for us, we're really good at
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: coming up with creative ideas.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that people
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: like to do. Do you think right now, if humans,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: regular average humans, most humans, could vote to keep AI
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: going or to stop AI, what do you think that
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: they would vote?
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: This is like totally kind of, I don't have any
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: data for this. I would bet most people who use
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: ChatGPT which a lot of people know, they would say
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: like keep it going. And most people who don't would
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: say it's scary, stop it. What do you think?
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like most people would say stop it,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: I think, or pause it, take the wheels off of
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: it for a month, that kind of thing, siphon the
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: gas out of the tank, you know, like that kind
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: of thing, put sugar in it. I think there would
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: be like that kind of thing.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: What are you most afraid of with it? Or is
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: it just that we're not going to have purpose and
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: we don't know how it's all going to go?
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean those are some of the huge parts.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: But I think like there's like– Probably that. I think
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: that in the end. I think there's a general feeling
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: of like, well, if all the trucking jobs disappear, you know,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: if those become automated and like, yeah, if everything becomes
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: a robo-tax, like, you know, will that feel, you know,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: where will those people go for jobs? Will everybody just
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: be dancing on TikTok trying to get people to tip
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: them for trends and stuff? You know, like there's part
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: of that. I had this dream years ago that it
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: all ends with everybody's driving an Uber and literally holding
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: each other at gunpoint to be each other's passengers, right?
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Like get in my, cause that's how bad, like somebody's like,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I need the fare more than you do. You know,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: my whole family's in the backseat, sit shotgun, we'll get
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: you to wherever, you know, like people are literally holding
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: each other at gunpoint to subscribe to their only fans
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: and stuff. Like it's just that dystopian or whatever. So
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I guess part of that, but then there's a deeper
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: part where it's like, yeah, What comes out of us
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: if it feels like a lot of the regular stuff
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: that gives us purpose, that we know right now gives
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: us purpose? Is there a new evolution of our purpose?
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Is there like a blooming inside of us? Is it
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: this utopian place that you almost think of as like
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: a heaven idea where, you know, people are fed and
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: have enough, you know, are provided for, can take care
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: of themselves? I guess that's it. Because purpose gives people work.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Work gives people so much of their purpose. And so
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: if we're to lose those things, what happens? And I
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: know I kind of keep asking that over and over again.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: You don't really have the answers. It's okay. Of course,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: how could you? We're not in the future.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think people really do love to be
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: useful to each other. And people love to express their
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: creativity as part of that.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: And....
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: As the long-term trend of society getting richer has continued,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: more people, I think, are able to get closer to
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: sort of expressing themselves in the best way that they can.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Maybe like, you know, as recently as 500 or 600
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: years ago, not very many people got to be artists.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: The world wasn't that rich. There were a limited number
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: of patrons that could like pay you to create art,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: but there were more than zero. And before that, there
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: were almost none. And then you got this beautiful Italian
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Renaissance and all of this amazing art because there was
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: like excess capital in the world. And now a lot
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: more people can be artists or a lot more people
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: can start startups, which is another, like for me, that's
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: like my expression of creativity. Or more people can create content.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: And this idea that people can find whatever way they
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: can to express themselves, their talent, their vision for kind
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: of collective love of other people and a care for
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: putting their brick in society's progress. I think that can
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: go really far. Now, what art in the future looks
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: like now that AI can make art? or help make art.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It'll probably be kind of different what
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: startups will look like in the future when people can
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: kind of just say whatever they want to their AI
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: and it can make this off of them right then.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: It will kind of be different. But I think it's
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: such a bad bet to assume that either human creativity
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: or human fulfillment from being useful to other people ends.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: I think we're just, we stay on this exponential and
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: like each year, each decade, our collective standard of living
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: goes way up. The whole world gets way richer. We
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: all get more, we all expect more. And even over
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: like the course, I was thinking recently, like food is
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: so much better than it is when I was a kid.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Like the world has just figured out how to make
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: food better. Like we, you know, know how to, we
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: figured out organic vegetables or whatever it is. I don't know.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: It just tastes much better. And like, I think that's great.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go back to eating like the
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: frozen carrots or whatever.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's a good point. But then there's some,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: like I saw this thing the other day, it was
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: like a kitchen. They had like one of those robo
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: kitchens or whatever. you know when you order food from
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: like something Dash or whatever, and then you, but it's
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: like Hank's ribs, and then it's like Marty's pizza, and
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: then it's like Susan's salami shop, but they're all the
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: same place, you know?
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: And when you get that from Window Dash, you don't like,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: you feel like something's missing, right? You're like, ah, this
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: is fake. I can tell. I get less enjoyment. You
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: would rather get that food from like, The dude who's
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: been making it and perfecting it on the, you know,
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: that little pizza shop on the corner for the last
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: 20 years.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Because that's like part of like that dude is part
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: of the experience. That authenticity is part of the experience.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: I don't think that goes away with a like fake
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: robotic thing.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, because I think I start to feel like
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: we're in this universe where it's like you're walking down
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: the street or something and like a Waymo goes by
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: and it's like, eat now. And you're like, but. And
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: you already did eat. It's just got a bad reading
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: or something. It's got a bad valve in it or something.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: You're like yelling at it. There's nobody in there. And
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: you're like, I already ate. It's like, sit down and
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: eat now. And it just like fucking uses like a
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: T-shirt cannon to just like shoot a burrito at you.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: And then you're sitting there. You're eating that, you know.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: And then the GLP car goes by, right?
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: And says, I can help you out.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Yes. And it's like, obviously, you've overeaten. You're like, I
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: didn't even want to eat. That thing's messed up, right?
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: You're yelling at a car that has no driver in it.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And then it shoots you with three GLP-1 darts in
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the neck. And now your wife doesn't even recognize you
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: when you get home or whatever.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: The fact that you find this so off-putting I think
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: is a sign for optimism. That's actually a good point.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: You're wired.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: You're going to be resistant to that. That's not going
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: to make you happy. That's not going to make other
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: people happy. Now maybe we get tricked. Social media tricked
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: us for a while. We got too addicted to feeds, whatever.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: But we realized like actually this is not helping me
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: be my best. You know, like doing the equivalent of
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: getting the like burrito can into my mouth on my
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: phone at night. Like that's not making me long-term happy.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: And that's not helping me like really accomplish my true
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: goals in life. And I think if AI does that,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: people will reject it. However, if ChatGPT really helps you
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: to figure out what your true goals in life are
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: and then accomplish those. You know, it says, hey, you've
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: said you want to be a better father or a better,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: you know, you want to be in better shape or you,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: you know, want to like grow your business. If you want,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: we can change that goal and I can help you
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: scroll TikTok all night or, you know, eat the burritos
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: or whatever. And I'll give you the GLP one shots
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: and I'll make you as healthy as you can. But
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: like maybe instead I can try to help convince you
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: you should go for a run tonight. And I think
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: if AI feels like it is helping you try to
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: accomplish your goals and be your best. that will feel
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: very different than the last generation of technology.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know what? And that's where I'm like,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: and that's where a kid growing up right now, to them,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: that would probably, some young people might be like, that
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: makes the most sense. I'm a little older generation. I
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: might be like, oh, that seems a little, but that's
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: always how things are with generation and generation.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: It's always how it goes.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. And maybe this is just like a
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: quicker evolution of things. And for young people, it's going
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: to make so much sense. And for older people, it's
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: an energy just to be like, get off my, you know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: avatar lawn or something, you know?
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: But that's the way of societal progress. That's just how
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: it goes.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Good point. You know, it's an interesting time for business.
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• 55:45
  Speaker 1: There's definitely been a lot of talk about tech and governance, right?
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: And I know we touched on it a little bit earlier.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: And there were people like lobbying and Trump had a big,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: beautiful bill for like a 10-year ban on state legislation
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: against AI. What do you think about that, like letting
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: it be this rogue space?
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: There have to be some rules here. There has to
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: be some guidelines. There has to be some sort of
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: regulation at some point. I think it would be a
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: mistake to let each state do this kind of crazy
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: patchwork of stuff. I think one countrywide approach would be
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: much easier for us to be able to innovate and
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: still have some guardrails. But there have to be some guardrails.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Have you met with governments and government leaders to have
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: discussions like that? Are they meeting with you?
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they do meet with us. They haven't done anything
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: big yet, but they're talking about it.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Do they meet with you to try to keep information
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: out of you guys' data?
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: For all of the paranoia about that, I don't think
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: we've ever had someone come say like, I don't want
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: it to say this negative thing about this politician or
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: this whatever. The concerns are like, what is this going
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: to do to our kids? Are they going to stop learning?
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of concerns about that. Is this going
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: to spread fake information? Is this going to influence elections?
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: But we've never had the like, you can't say bad
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: things about the president, Trump or whatever. Bias is a
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: big thing. Like, they do want to know, like, you know,
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: if it'll say bad things about one candidate, it'll say
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: bad things about the other.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Could you guys make it do one or the other? Like,
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: can you guys favor the back end?
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: We totally could. I mean, we don't, but we totally could.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: You could? Yeah. Wow.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, like.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: How do we know you? Like, do we give you
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: guys lie detector tests? How do we know you?
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Well, you have to, like, test the system. Anyone can, like,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: test the AI and say, if I say this, it'll
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: say this.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good point.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: But you touch on a really big point here, which is, like,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Hundreds of millions of people talk to ChatGPT every day.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: And it probably has like a big impact on what
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: they believe. And so I think society's interest in making
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: sure that we are, you know, a responsible neutral party
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: should be huge. Now people do test a lot and
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: I think that's good, but like we got to be
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: held to a very high standard there.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: But how do we like this as regular people or
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: how do like regular people just held you guys to
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: a high standard? Like, is it the, I guess it's
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: politicians responsibility or? I mean these guys are idiots. They're
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: like 80-year-old dudes giving thumbs up. That one guy couldn't
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: get the Wi-Fi on. Remember that guy? That guy couldn't
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: get the Wi-Fi on. So I'm like how.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: Do we– I mean there's a huge amount of people
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: that test our systems all the time looking for any errors,
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: any bias, anything.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: I guess that's a good point is we can test
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: it on this end.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: You can tell. Yeah.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: Right. People can test it on this end. As AI grows,
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: like how big do data centers need to be? Is
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: that a concern of you guys?
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: I went recently to one of our new data centers
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: under construction in Abilene, Texas. It's about like approximately one
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: gigawatt facility, huge. It'll be the biggest data center ever
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: built by the time it's done. And you stand in
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: the middle of that, and the scale of this project
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: just hits you so big. That's like one little that's
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: like one little part of it dude that's like eight
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: cost codes uh you know there's like five thousand people
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: there doing construction on it and this thing is just
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: standing up making progress every day and you stand in
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: the middle of.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: This and what are you in a chariot or whatever
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: like how.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Do you even you're like in a little atv oh
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: okay it's like a dirty kind of construction site um
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: but The scale of this thing and then you kind
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: of go in every room and you look at all
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: the cables, the power, the cooling systems, rack after rack
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: of servers. It's humongous. There's like– they're standing up these
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: like power plants right in the middle of it.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. It's crazy to see. It starts to make
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: our planet look like a software.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: Board, like a– It does. When you see it from
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: the air. I was really struck by that. I was like,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: this looks like the motherboard of a computer.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like the motherboard of a computer. You
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: start to see like how the planets in like a
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: lot of these like sci-fi movies, a lot of them look,
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: have that R2-D2 look on the outside because they've been.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Covered in data centers.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Which is kind of wild. Do you know where
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: we're going and you're not telling us? Do you know
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: what's happening?
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: You promised, dude.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I have all my guesses.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Like I do guess that a lot of the world
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: gets covered in data centers over time.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Do you really?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: But I don't know because maybe we put them in space. Like,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe we build a big Dyson sphere on the solar
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: system and say, hey, it actually makes no sense to
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: put these on Earth. I wish I had more concrete
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: answers for you, but we're stumbling through this. We maybe
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: have a little bit higher confidence than the average person,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: but there's so much we don't know yet.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: No, that's the craziest thing about you, Sam, and I
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: think this is a compliment somehow, dear God. Yeah, it
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: is a compliment. It's like you're like, come with me
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: through the universe, and you're like, people are like, well,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: what's it like? You're like, I don't know exactly, but,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: and then we're all, it's like we're all going. It's like,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You're just somehow the most, like, you're this,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: like this charming kind of Terminator, it feels like. And
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: I hate to say Terminator. That's a crazy term. But like,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: but you're this, like, you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm curious.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: You somehow seem so optimistic about it. It adds to
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: my curiosity.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I assumed that there were
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: always some adults in the room. Someone had a plan.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: Someone knew everything that was going to happen. Someone had
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: it all figured out. And I sort of think why
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: people like conspiracy theories is it's nice to think that
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: someone's got a plan. It's nice to think someone that,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: you know, has it all figured out. And then I
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: got a little bit older and I sort of started
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: to suspect there are no adults in the room.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: No one.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: People have plans. I have plans. But no one has
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: all the answers. No one knows where it's all going
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: to go. And now that I am the adult in
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: the room, I can say with certainty, no one knows
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: where it's all going to go. Like I'm the guy
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: in the room and I have some guesses and I
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: have some plans and we're working really hard. But like,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: you know, we try to always say what we think
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: the possibilities are, what we think is most likely. Often
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: we're right. Sometimes it's in the broader set and sometimes
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: it goes in a totally different direction than anything we thought. And,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: you know, we keep trying to make progress figure out
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: more we try to tell people not just tell we
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: try to show people by like deploying these systems and
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: say you can go use it don't just take our
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: word for it try it out see what it can
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: do yeah um but like i can say with conviction
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: the world needs a lot more processing power but if
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: that looks like tiling data centers on earth which i
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: think is what it looks like in the short term
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: in the long term also or we do go build
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: them in space i don't know it sounds cool to
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: try to build them in space but also really hard.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: What about like the environmental effects of those and stuff?
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Like there's been like, you know, there's been articles written
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: and I don't know how much of it is real
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: or not real. Right. Cause who knows what to believe,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: but you'd have to think that, you know, it takes
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: water to cool them. Right. It takes power to power them.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: You know, um, there was something like Arizona and Iowa
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: that there's been like repercussions within the environments here in
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: the communities. Uh, would it, and, and a lot of
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: those companies don't have to report those things because it's
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: considered proprietary, you know? Um, What do you think about
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: those fears? Or how do you guys manage that? Like,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: do you guys talk about that? Do you meet with environmentalists? Like,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: what does that all look like?
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: I think we need to get to fusion as fast
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: as possible.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: Get to what?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Nuclear fusion. I think that is the... Oh, shit.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: What is it?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Where you basically knock two small atoms together and it
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: makes a bunch of energy. But no carbon, very clean,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: doesn't generate, you know, doesn't really harm the environment. And
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: power can become, like, abundant and pretty limitless on Earth.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: And we get out of all the current problems we're in.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Are you guys investing in that?
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: We are. And I think AI can help us figure
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: it out even faster. So that's like a, you know,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: if you have to like burn a little bit more
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: gas in the short term, but you figure out, you know,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: the future of energy with that AI, it's a huge win.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: And would you guys sell tickets to that? Or what
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: do you think that would be like? Yeah, I think
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: people are going to watch that shit. I mean, yeah,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: people go to monster trucks. You don't think they'll roll
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: up to watch those two things hit each other?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: The atoms hit each other?
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: It's pretty hard to watch two atoms hit each other,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: but maybe with the, you know, somehow we can do it.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Or what if they did like those sperm races where
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: they put them out of those big things or whatever?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: I love those sperm races.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: They're kind of crazy. I'm like, dude, there's enough of
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: that going on.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Look, I think the way, uh, yeah, there'll be some
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: way to watch fusion and it'll be awesome and it'll
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: be like loud and bright and theatrical and it'll be
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: making huge amounts of energy. Um, even if you can't
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: watch the two atoms hit, you'll watch them collectively produce
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: a fireworks.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Um, But we're going to need that? Do you think
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: if we're going to get to AGI or if we're
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: going to get to superintelligence, do we need that?
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: I bet we can get there without it. But to
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: provide it at the scale that humanity will demand it,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: I think we do need it. Because the desire to
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: use this stuff, people are just going to want more
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: and more and more. And eventually, like the two things
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: that I think matter most, the two kind of critical
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: inputs are intelligence and energy. The ability to have great ideas,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: come up with plans, and then energy is the ability
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: to make them happen in the world and also to
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: run the intelligence. And I think the story of the
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: next couple of decades is going to be the demand
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: for these goes up and up and up to crazy heights.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: And we better find out how to produce a lot. Otherwise,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: someone's going to feel like they're getting screwed.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Dang, dude. I can't tell if I'm excited or scared.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm both. And maybe it's all the same thing.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: You have to be both. You have to be both.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same thing or not.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: I think it is kind of like They do feel
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: related to me always. But I don't think anyone could
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: honestly look at the trajectory humanity is on and not
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: feel both excited and scared.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And maybe that's always been the way throughout time.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: And also then this is where we are. What are
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: you going to do? Like this is where we are.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: And so that's what's going on. I saw where you
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: and Joe Rogan spoke about there possibly being one day
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: like an AI president. you know, where like, what if
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: you had this one kind of, let's just use the
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: term supercomputer or this agent that was created that knew
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: all the information and knew all of the problems and
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: knew the best ways to solve them. Is that, do
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: you think that something like that is becoming more and
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: more possible one day?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know everything that it takes to be a president,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: but I do know it like takes a lot of
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: things that I don't have to do and that people
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: are going to, Well, maybe I could reframe it to
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: an AI CEO of OpenAI because I do know what
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: that job is like. That should be possible someday. Maybe
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: not even that far. I think the idea to look
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: at an organization to make really good decisions, there's a
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: lot of things you can imagine that an AI CEO
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: of OpenAI could do that I can't. I can't talk
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: to every person at OpenAI every day. I can't talk
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: to every user of ChatGPT every day. I cannot synthesize
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: all that information even if I could. But an AI
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: CEO could do that. And it would have better information,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: more context. It could massively parallelize this And I think
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: that would lead to better decisions in many cases.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because wouldn't a supercomputer something that has all knowledge,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: which you think will get there?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: You do.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, all knowledge is a hard thing to say.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: I think it will have vast, vast amounts.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Will it be able to tell us about God or anything,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: I'm super curious about that. I think it will be
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: able to help us answer questions about the nature of
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: the universe that we currently can't. And I feel very
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: confused and very unsatisfied with our current answers. And there
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: is clearly, to me at least, something going on well
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: beyond our current capability to understand. And I would love
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: to know what that is.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: You think it could help us learn more? Yes. I
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: wonder if God has a chat GPT or whatever. Or
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: I just wonder, he has the first one or whatever.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm just so curious, like how would that work? Um,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: how does, how does open AI make money?
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: We sell ChachiBT, pay 20 bucks a month. Some people
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: pay 200, but very few or relatively few.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: Perverts, I think they are.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: Uh, mostly, hopefully they're just working super hard and using
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: it for their job. And then we also sell an API.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: So businesses can use and they like pay us every
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: time they make an API call.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. Um, do you think, uh, Like there's a lot
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: of these like kind of tech lords that are rocking
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: right now, right? And you get thrown in there.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: Sometimes. I'm like on the periphery.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or you get certainly like– yeah, like these council,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: these councilmen kind of like– do you think there's bad
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: artists amongst like these tech lords in these AI realms?
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's bad artists out there? What does
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: bad artists mean? Just like people that want for evil
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: and not for good.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: I think most people– Don't wake up. I think very
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: few people wake up every morning saying, I'm going to
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: try to make the world a worse place around. going
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: to actively try to do evil. Clearly some do, but
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: I think most of these people running the big tech
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: efforts are not in that category. I think people get
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: blinded by ambition. I think people get blinded by competition.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: I think people get caught up, like very well-meaning people
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: can get caught up in very negative incentives, negative for
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: society as a whole.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: And by the way, I include Austin in this. Like
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: we can totally get caught up and we can be
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: very well-meaning but get caught up in some incentive and
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: it can lead to a bad outcome. So that's kind
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: of what I would say. I think people come in
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: with good intentions. They clearly sometimes do bad stuff.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk about like Palantir and Peter
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: Thiel and their company about being like– they got a
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: deal from Trump about to have this surveillance– or not
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: a surveillance state but to– create a database on most of, uh, America,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: but it starts to feel like a surveillance state, you know? Um,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: do you feel like we will need something like that
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: in order for, uh, the future? You know, do you
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: feel like something like that is included in the future?
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: So I don't know about that specifically. I mean, I
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: think Palantir and Peter do a lot of great stuff. Uh,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: but I, again, I can't comment on this specifically. What,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: I'll say generally, I am worried that the more AI
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: in the world we have, the more surveillance the world
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: is going to want. Because the tool is so powerful.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: The government will say, like, how do we know people
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: aren't using it to make bombs or buy weapons or whatever?
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: And the answer will be more surveillance. And I'm very
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: afraid of that. So I don't– I think we really
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: have to defend AI. rights to privacy. I don't think
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: those are absolute. I'm like totally willing to compromise some
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: privacy for collective safety, but history is that the government
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: takes that way too far. And I'm really nervous about that.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: Do you guys feel like the new government kind of,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: or do you feel like the government is still like
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: a real thing?
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like the government anyway.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: You don't.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: When the U S government bombed Iran recently, I remember
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: waking up that morning and seeing that news or whatever
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: time it was, uh, And I was like, oh, that's
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: what actual power looks like. Maybe someday we get there.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: But it was like a really stark reminder of however
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: important we think this is. It's like there are people
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: that have just like this unimaginable power and might and
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: can kind of do whatever they want. That's definitely not us.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's been a lot in the
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Middle East recently. It's just such gross displays over there
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes of inhumanity.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: It's sad. Um, what do you think a guy like
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: then like Palantir, Peter Thiel's end game is? Do you
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: think he has an end game? Cause I think he
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: seems like a dark Lord to a lot of us.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: And it's like, he does. You think he has an
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: end game that is like happy?
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: I think Peter is one of the most brilliant people
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: I've ever met.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: I think he's smarter than me. That's for sure.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: I think he does get caricaturized in the media as
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: this like evil mastermind.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: As a villain. He does. I never met him.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: I met him. We're very close friends.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Uh, I, I shouldn't have brought it up then.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: No, it's all good.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: It's all good. I don't feel that energy from him,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: but I at all. In fact, I think he's been
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: one of the most important forces, at least in my life,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: for questioning assumptions about the path that society was on.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: And maybe I was like, oh, I thought this was
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: all going well, but maybe we are in a tech stagnation.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe we really do have this huge economic challenge that
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: no one's talking about. And so I think these people
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: who are just very– that think very differently, he would
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: call it very contrarian, is super important to a society. Now,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: on the other hand, maybe he– maybe he sometimes does
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: things like this that don't do him any favors.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: What is it? You would prefer the human race to endure, right?
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: You're hesitating. Well, I– Yes?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: I would– I would– This is a long hesitation.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: This is a long hesitation. There's so many questions in question.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Should the human race survive? Yes.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: But– God. I mean, that was 22 seconds it took him. Yeah.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: So if he were maybe like– a more typical person,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: he would have just said an immediate yes.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: And then said what else he wanted to say. And
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: it took me a while with him to understand that
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: his brain just works differently. And society needs some of that.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: Like he has these super different takes and then he
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't have maybe the circuit in his brain that makes
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: him immediately say yes and then say what he's going
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: to say. But, you know.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: His processors, yeah.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: I'm very grateful he exists because he thinks of things
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: no one else does.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, yeah, you want, they're, Novel thinkers have
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: changed things throughout time, sometimes for the better and sometimes
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: for the worse, sometimes for the indifferent. But novel thinkers
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: have– you've always like– I don't know. It's always been
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: part of humanity.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: I'm probably super different and super weird relative to most people.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: But maybe I have some ideas as part of that
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: that are like valuable to society collectively. And if I
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: had this sort of very standard mindset, I wouldn't.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, do you think–
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: and I'm just going to ask you real honestly. Do
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: you think a lot of these guys have– I mean
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: it's not like– love on the spectrum is like a
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: big show, right? It's like those people are in love shit.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: Half the people I know are just barely– they're crying
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: in parking lots or whatever. But there's spousal issues or whatever.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: But anyway, what I'm saying is. Do you think that
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: some of the creators now and some of the tech
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: lords are almost have some tech built into them? Like
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: almost a, I don't want to say like an autism dude.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: Cause I couldn't say that.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, yeah, I, I, you know,
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: to take the kind of like harshest look at us collectively,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: I can, you know, are we a little autistic on
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: the whole? I would say probably, you know.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: I knew that shit.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: That's all right.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: No, no, that's what I'm saying. For years ago, I
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: was meet first time I ever met some people with autism.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: I was like, dude, these guys are computers, right? Like
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of these guys are just, you know, they're some,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: they're kind of like a little bit of a cyborg
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: in some way in the way that they think, right?
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: You know, look, you are this like impossibly charming, cool guy.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: And I'm like kind of a lot more computery than you.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: You're not much though.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: We can have it. We can still like, Oh, yeah.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: And I really don't.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: Mean it as an offense, but I think that we
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: may need that in people to get whatever's next in
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: the world. Do you think that's realistic?
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think society needs like this very broad diversity
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: of people. You need some people like me. You need
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: some people who are more normal than me. You don't
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: want too many of me, but like– Yeah.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want too many of any one thing. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just always– I'm like, God, yeah, these people are
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: able to see things differently and quantify things differently. Do
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: you always feel– Because some tech guys, they just have
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: a different understanding of possibility, right? A different understanding of
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: feeling and things. Do you feel human all the time?
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: I do feel human all the time, but I feel
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: like I have noticed that I think extremely differently about
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: the future, about exponential change, about compounding technology than almost
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: anybody else that I kind of come across in regular life.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: I feel extremely human. I feel like driven by crazy
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: emotions as much as anybody. But I am like very
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: aware that I have a different lens than a lot
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: of people.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: Have you met some people in tech space and you're like, whoa,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: that guy is only like six or 7%. He's low,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: not a lot of human in him.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Do you think it's inevitable that AI or
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: AGI will merge into our bodies? I know you've talked
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: about this before in the past. As things go along
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: and advance quickly, do you start to see that a
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: little bit differently? I know you've talked about how you don't,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: think it's like a glasses thing or something like that.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you a fascinating story.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: I was with a friend last week.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: And did I offend you by asking that?
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Not at all.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: Zero percent.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: I thought that was a great answer. I really appreciate it.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: Because yes, some of us are, we can't conceptualize sometimes
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: how you guys are thinking. It can't, I can't even like,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: we feel like we can't figure it out, you know?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: So it feels like it's almost like a unique, it's like,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: are we all evolving into this new kind of species?
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: And that's where we meet the future at anyway. And
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: you're just like the dang Paul Revere out there, you know?
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: It's like, For better or for worse, I think whenever
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: you see someone who thinks differently than you, it's like,
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by you. I don't quite understand how you
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: do your thing. I know I couldn't do it. I
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: know you just understand the world differently than me. But
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: I think that's cool. And I'm just like, all right,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: I'm glad.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how I feel. I think it's just, thanks
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: for just talking to me about it. Because sometimes I
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: think I get afraid to say it.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: I don't think you should be afraid. I don't think
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: anybody would be offended by that. I was talking to
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: this friend of mine, though, about how he uses ChatGPT
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: and he's been using it a lot. for a couple
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: of years now. And he noticed recently that he started
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: giving it personality tests. He'd upload any personality test he
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: could find to ChatGPT and say, based on what you
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: know about me, answer this. And he had never, he
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: had never like told it, here's my personality. It had
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: just learned it from the questions he asked over the years.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: And on everyone he tried, it got exactly the answer
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: and exactly the outcome he would get. And so that's
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: not like, he didn't, He didn't get uploaded. He didn't
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: get merged. He didn't plug something into his brain. But
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: somehow like the pattern of him had gotten imprinted into
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: this AI.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: Wow. Maybe we're not as complex as we think we are.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: Or maybe we are and AI can just learn it
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: really well. AI can like represent these very complex things.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: One of those two. But that was a real moment
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: for me of like, wow, you know, the merge maybe
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: can happen in a very different way than we thought.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because you think of it as this thing
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: kind of taking over your system and like, you know,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: your dad presses a button and you can't use the car,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: you know, you can't move for a month or whatever.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: I think it kind of has that sort of energy. Um,
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: you just, you just finished the acquisition of this a
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: little bit more like day-to-day business. You just finished the
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: acquisition of Johnny Ives, um, hardware company, um, uh, their
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: hardware company. So clearly you have some like thoughts or
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: interest in how like hardware and AI match up for
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: each other in humanity. What was that about?
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: There have been two revolutions in computers in history. There
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: was the keyboard, mouse, and screen, that thing that was
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: invented down the street in I think the 70s where,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the people at Xerox PARC figured out what
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: has become the modern computer interface. And then in the
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: early to mid, the early 2000s, I guess, Apple figured
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: out this idea of touch on a device. And really,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: Those have been the two big ones. I think now
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: there can be a third. I think AI is, it
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: so changes the game that you can design a new
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: kind of computer based off of a really smart AI
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: where you can give a complex instruction to a system.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: It can go do it. You'll trust that it gets
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: it right. You'll trust it to act on your behalf.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: It could like maybe be aware of everything going on
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: in this room and it could like kind of not
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: just be on or off, but like lightly get our
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: attention if it wants us to know something or maybe
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: more aggressively get our attention. It could really be like
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: following what we're talking about here and remind us both
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: of things later. And current hardware just can't do that.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: The current kind of computers we have, I don't think
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: are a fair, they don't honor what the technology is
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: not really capable of. So I want to make a
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: totally new kind of computer that is meant for this
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: world of AI helping you all the time. I'm super
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: excited about it.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: You are? Yeah. You guys, there's this thing called agent
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: that you guys had showed me earlier. I can take
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: this out if I mention it and I wasn't supposed to.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: It was pretty fascinating. It was cool to see.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: It is, yeah. This is a new thing that we
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: just did. But the idea that an AI cannot just
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: answer questions for you, but it can go actually do
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: stuff on your behalf as your agent. It can go
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: do research for you. It can go book something for you.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: It can go buy something for you. It can go
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: change some things in the world for you and think
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: more and use tools like I think most people think
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: of ChatGPT as this app that you can ask anything.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: But it'll become this thing that can do anything. And
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: that'll change how you use computers. It'll change how you
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: do things in your life. Yeah.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: I was watching the guy do it, and it was
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: just kind of fascinating. He was showing like one time
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: he went to like a website and bought something that
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: he needed. And then now moving forward, he could just
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: be like, hey, go to this and make sure to
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: get me these. Or go here and see– go to
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: the restaurants I like and see if there's any table
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: available for 7 p.m. tomorrow. And it was able to
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: book it and do everything. It was like having a
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: secretary right there. Totally.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: When I first started using it, I was like, it
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: was one of those moments where I could tell that,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: oh man, doing this the old fashioned way is going
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: to feel like the stone age so quickly. You know,
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: I'm going to like try to tell people someday, like,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: do you remember when, if we wanted to do something,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: we actually had to go like click around the internet
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, look for a table. And then
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: if we wanted to move it, we had to like
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: call the restaurant. And that's going to be unimaginable because,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: of course, you just tell your AI to do those
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: things for you.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you feel like you would almost just tell
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: it to go eat too, you know?
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: That's the fun part.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: No one likes booking the table. Everyone loves sitting there eating.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: That's a good point, huh? Yeah, yeah. It won't take
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: away the fun part. That's the thing. I think you
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: got to remember that. It won't take away the fun part.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: You're going to do the things you want to do.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in your life you probably
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: don't love doing. Like booking an open table is maybe
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: one of them.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you'll have like old-fashioned like, I'll book it.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: You're like, Dad, what do you mean? Get off the
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: phone or whatever. Don't call him, you freaking weirdo. Use
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: your freaking– use your agent.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: Like, I'll book it. There's like a lot of like–
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: Zuckerberg recently like kind of was poaching guys around town, right?
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: And I'll say it. You don't have to say it. Allegedly.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying he did. He hired one of my buddies.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is there's this hypothetical that he
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: was like kind of poaching guys around town.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: Did that feel like a mafioso move in the community?
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: What was that like out here in the tech trenches?
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, they want to get into the
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: AI game. I understand it. And if he's going to
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: do this, he needs to hire some people. So bring it.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: So bring it. Yeah! Fuck yeah, dude. I'm going to
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: upload myself into this plant in a second. Um, okay. No,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: but no, does it, do you kind of like the competition?
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: Is that fun? It is.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: It's like winning is fun.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: And I expect to win.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: And you got to love the comment. That's part of it, right?
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: It makes it fun.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: I think what it would be like if we didn't
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: have competition and drama in the world, it'd be so boring. Could, uh, actually,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: can I say one more thing about that?
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: The best improvement I made in my life and I
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: like personally in my life and for my own happiness is,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: Over the last couple of years, a lot of bad
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: shit has happened to us. To me, it's been like
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: a crazy intense experience. And I just decided that I
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: was going to like learn to love the hard parts.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: I was like, you know what? If I'm in this
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: crazy moment, if I'm in this like crazy thing, if
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: I like feel my emotions are high, I'm going to
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: like make myself learn to be grateful for that, to
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: love it, to find enjoyment in the tension, in the competition, whatever.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: And actually it worked. And it kind of needed to
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: work because like so many things go wrong in any
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: given day. But I was like thinking about, you know,
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: someday I'll be like retired on my ranch. I'll be
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: sitting there watching the plants grow and I'll be missing
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: the excitement and the drama and the anger and the
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: tension and the whatever. And so I'm going to be
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: like grateful for it and like learn to have fun
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: with it. And now, like I cannot believe that that
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: mindset shift.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: Worked, but it did. And were there practices like in
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: a moment, like say like a moment came up like
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: some of the early ones, right? Cause I agree with
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: you that like having some mindset, like I used to
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: hate traveling, like every week traveling for work. But then
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: one day I was like, dude, you have to travel
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: for work. Deal with it.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: You may as well.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: Right. You may as well. Cause for years you've been,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: and right there, suddenly it wasn't bad anymore.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: That happened for me too.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: Was there like a, just a practice or was it
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: just this verbal reminder? Like I'm going to do this.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: I just kept saying it to myself. I was just like,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: someday you'll miss these moments. You may as well find
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: a way to like find the, happiness and kind of
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: great gratitude for them in the moment.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. A lot of these guys have bunkers. Zucky has
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: a bunkie. I know that somewhere out in Hawaii. People
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: have bunkers. Do you have a bunker?
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: I have like underground concrete, heavy reinforced basements, but I
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: don't have anything.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: I would call a bunker. Hold on, hold on, hold on, dude. Look,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: I'll let you keep me on the ropes in a
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: lot of this conversation, but I am going to call
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: that out as a dang bunker, dude. Sam, that's a bunker.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: What's the difference between a basement and a bunker?
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: A place you could hide when it all goes off
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: or whatever.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: No. Yeah, I have been thinking I should really do
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: a good version of one of those. But I don't
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: have like a– I don't have what I would call
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: a bunker. But it has been on my mind. Not
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: because of AI but just because of like people are
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: dropping bombs in the world again and, you know, like.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. That's a very good point. Yeah,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: basement right there. Part of a house building typically used
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: for storage, laundry, extra living, space or utilities. and then
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: bunker built for protection, often military or emergency-related, meant to
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: withstand explosions.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: We don't have that yet. Do you guys do this
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: just for me or do you use ChatGPT as the
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: fact check?
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: We did this just for you.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: This is nice. Could we ever have instead of– so
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: you start to see, say if AI comes over and
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: there's this whole new kind of like– I believe that
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: one of the things that's been happening, there's been like
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of like ice raids and people getting like
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: taken out of their homes and– There's been a lot
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: of crackdown because part of me believes that they're having
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: to get everybody documented or online basically because they're going
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: to start to have this facial recognition everywhere. I have
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: this idea of that. So yes, this stuff had to
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: happen because in a year or a year and a half,
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't even be able to be outdoors anywhere without
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: a drone or something noticing you or some camera noticing
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: that you're not supposed to be there or you're not there.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: with documentation, right? Whatever people's thoughts are on that. But just,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: so part of me starts to see like, oh, okay,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: that's going on. Do you think we could ever then
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: down the line have new countries like delineated by like
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: almost like a new AI landscape? Like remember when on Snapchat,
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: if you were in a certain realm, you could put
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: like a filter on something and they almost created these
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: new like geo barriers and stuff. Do you think we
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: could potentially be looking at something like that one day?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: I know that what you just said is going to happen.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: I know that we're going to have cameras all over
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: the place and it's going to make the cities way
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: safer because if you commit a crime, they'll have a
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: facial recognition hit on you right away. But man, do
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: I find that dystopic.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: You do.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: Of course. Is it a good trade if it means
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: people stop getting murdered in the streets? Yeah, sure. We
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: agree to give up some privacy for that. But it
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: sits so uncomfortably with me. You know, in like London
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: or whatever, you see those cameras on every street corner.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: And you're just like, you get used to it fast.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: but you're just like ugh it feels like privacy is
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: important and like you really are like there's nothing I
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: can do to live in the world and avoid all
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: these cameras and maybe it's worth it for society collectively
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: but it it feels like we really do give up
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: a lot to get.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: It But could there one day you think if we
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: had that, then we could have whole new countries kind of.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: That were– What do you mean by new countries in
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: this case?
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: Like say if there was this new kind of– this
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: new like layer, right? A surveillance layer that's kind of
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: in the air. Then could that be divided into different realms?
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, totally. That can– I think there's all kinds
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: of weird ways that that can happen. But the surveillance
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: layer is so uncomfortable.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, it's going to be a nasty blanket. Is
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: there anything else that you wanted to talk about, you
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: wanted to get out, that you wanted me to ask
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: you about?
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: No, that was great.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: Why does chat UBT have that hyphen thing?
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: We got to do something about that. You know, we
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: have this team that figures out what the model's personality
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: should be like and how it should behave, and a
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: lot of users like em dashes, so we added more
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: em dashes, and now I think we have too many
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: em dashes. But that's the answer is it was just
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: like users liked it. We put more in. Now it's
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: like a little bit of a meme and it's kind
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: of– it's quite annoying to me. We should fix that.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: But you're thinking about it too.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: I think we'll get it fixed very soon.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: Okay. Before you go, Sam, and thank you so much
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: for your time today.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: It's been awesome.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: We appreciate it, man. It's helped me get to understand
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: you I feel like a lot. I think maybe differently
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: than I– I don't know if I had a perception.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what to think.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: What's the before and after?
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: The before was like a little bit like– I guess
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: I almost thought kind of like not as hopeful. But
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know why. Maybe that's just my own– I
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: think it's attached to my own perceptions of what I
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: think about AI and stuff or the possibilities of technology,
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: you know, like that kind of stuff, like that curmudgeon-y energy.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: I think I was probably attaching it to you. And
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: now I feel like more whimsical about it kind of
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: like– or not whimsical but like let's see what can happen. Right?
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: And so I think that's pretty fascinating.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: I think it's not just let's see. It's like, let's
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: try to make it good, but let's realize that you
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: have to like, you don't get to see all the
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: way down the road. You kind of got to go
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: one turn at a time and you like light up
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit more.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, I don't know. I just,
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: I'm really, I'm really thankful for you. Even let me
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: tell you what I thought, what I was like judging
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: and then sharing like kind of where I thought, what
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: I thought now. In 20 years, what do you hope
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: your legacy will be? You're going to have one.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I guess.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: You certainly don't, I don't think anyone sits around while
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: they're in the middle of the game thinking about what
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: the review is going to be after. At least I don't.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: But this is a big review you'll have.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: I have never been that motivated by what... I want
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: to play the game the best I can. I want
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: to do the best work I can, have the most fun,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: have the most impact, do the most interesting stuff. But
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: then you retire and then you die and then like
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: life goes on and people, as they're supposed to, go
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: on with life and forget about you. And this whole
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: thing of like I'm going to live for high and
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: remembered after I die and my legacy and like you're dead.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: Do you have one of those deals where you're saving
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: your heart with those people?
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: What do you mean saving?
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: Your brain, sorry, with the people over there. Cryonics. Cryonics.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: Do you have a cryonic deal? No. I– Have you
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: been approached about it?
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: I have been approached by it. That's crazy.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: They haven't even fucking approached me yet.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: There was this Y Combinator company that I helped out
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: a long time ago by giving some small deposit. And
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: then I never followed up on it. So I don't
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: have anything in place.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: Okay. But maybe just a down payment somewhere down there.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: If things get weird, we'll go knock on their door. Yeah,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: but thank you so much, man. James Becerra says hello.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: He's a friend of mine. He's a great guy. And
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: we just appreciate you so much. Sam, thanks for your time.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks for doing this. I really enjoyed it.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: Thanks for your time today. I thought it was very informative.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: Cornerstone Oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: this peace of mind I found I can feel it
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: in my bones