Latest / Spiritual Hot Sauce / “Leaving the Mountain of Merit - Based Religion : Rebuilding Faith (Part 1 of 3)” Ep#39

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“Leaving the Mountain of Merit - Based Religion : Rebuilding Faith (Part 1 of 3)” Ep#39 · Spiritual Hot Sauce

• 0:07
  Chris Jones: Welcome.
• 0:08
  Chris Jones: I'm Chris Jones.
• 0:10
  Chris Jones: This is Spiritual Hot Sauce.
• 0:12
  Chris Jones: I don't know if you caught the episode with John Williamson, the host from The Deconstructionist, but we did an episode called Finding God After Religion, and it was a very rich conversation where John shared what he has found after 10 years of not only hosting the podcast, but deep diving in his own faith, challenging himself.
• 0:36
  Chris Jones: Now there was something John said on the episode that has stuck with me ever since he said it.
• 0:42
  Chris Jones: And he said that all of us start on square one.
• 0:45
  Chris Jones: That is the beginning of our faith.
• 0:47
  Chris Jones: And the whole idea is to progress to square two, square three, square four, basically saying that we evolve, we grow, and our faith matures.
• 0:57
  Chris Jones: But if we get stuck in square one and we never move on and we never evolve, and our faith doesn't grow in the way that it should, once we get to a point in life where we are challenging it, it requires what he called deconstruction, which is disassembling our religion so we can get on with our path of whatever that looks like for us in our personal spiritual growth.
• 1:22
  Chris Jones: Well, that stuck with me, like I said, and I've been pondering this and I've come up with some ideas that I want to share with you.
• 1:31
  Chris Jones: And I want to make absolutely clear, these are my thoughts that came from John's square one, square two, and square three.
• 1:39
  Chris Jones: In no way am I implying these are his ideas.
• 1:42
  Chris Jones: So, why do we get stuck on square one?
• 1:46
  Chris Jones: How does this happen?
• 1:47
  Chris Jones: And why is it so prevalent?
• 1:49
  Chris Jones: Why do so many people find themselves having to go through a deconstruction?
• 1:53
  Chris Jones: And why have so many people been traumatized by their experience?
• 1:57
  Chris Jones: These are things I want to dive into today.
• 2:00
  Chris Jones: And when I'm done, I would love to hear back from you of what you think.
• 2:04
  Chris Jones: Am I right?
• 2:04
  Chris Jones: Am I wrong?
• 2:05
  Chris Jones: Do you have insight that I should share?
• 2:07
  Chris Jones: I want to help us.
• 2:09
  Chris Jones: This is about us.
• 2:10
  Chris Jones: And I'm not the one coming down from the mountain.
• 2:13
  Chris Jones: I'm just one of all of us.
• 2:15
  Chris Jones: And I am just exploring, and I'm just wanting you to go with me and let's share ideas as we go through this.
• 2:21
  Chris Jones: So I think a really good place for us to start is kind of here.
• 2:26
  Chris Jones: You've heard me talk about often that the church is not the destination.
• 2:31
  Chris Jones: I don't think it was ever supposed to be the destination.
• 2:34
  Chris Jones: I think it's more about how we come together in community to encourage one another and comfort one another.
• 2:40
  Chris Jones: That's what it's for.
• 2:42
  Chris Jones: I think that's what it's always been for.
• 2:44
  Chris Jones: But when you start making it the destination, it starts changing things.
• 2:48
  Chris Jones: It starts getting in a kind of a weird place.
• 2:51
  Chris Jones: And I think the first thing that happens when you do that, we kind of raise up this image or an idea of God of how we all should see God.
• 3:01
  Chris Jones: And it becomes very one-dimensional.
• 3:03
  Chris Jones: And then we all have to kind of conform to that in that religion.
• 3:07
  Chris Jones: Now, I'm not saying that that's wrong.
• 3:09
  Chris Jones: I think it is ideal that we have a community idea of God and how we serve one another in that community.
• 3:18
  Chris Jones: But I think where our growth is and our progression, like John talked about in steps one, two, three, and four, is outside of that community and how we see God three-dimensionally.
• 3:32
  Chris Jones: You know, this makes me think about the relationship that the disciples had with Jesus.
• 3:37
  Chris Jones: They didn't have a one-dimensional idea or view of Jesus.
• 3:42
  Chris Jones: They all seen Jesus differently.
• 3:44
  Chris Jones: Their personal experience was different.
• 3:46
  Chris Jones: I think when they were together as the 12, there was this imagery or idea they saw of Jesus.
• 3:52
  Chris Jones: But outside of their community individually, they all had different paths.
• 3:59
  Chris Jones: When you think about Peter, Peter was constantly being challenged by Jesus, pretty hard.
• 4:04
  Chris Jones: But that was his path.
• 4:06
  Chris Jones: That's how he grew.
• 4:07
  Chris Jones: Step one, two, three, and four was through this challenging relationship that he had with Jesus, but it got him to the destination.
• 4:16
  Chris Jones: Now, when I think about John the beloved and the relationship he had, he had a very loving, nurturing relationship with Jesus.
• 4:24
  Chris Jones: But that's the relationship he needed.
• 4:27
  Chris Jones: That was his one, two, three, and four, and it got him to his destination.
• 4:31
  Chris Jones: Now, if Jesus would have treated John like he treated Peter, he would have traumatized John.
• 4:38
  Chris Jones: There's no way he could take that kind of challenge.
• 4:40
  Chris Jones: And if Jesus would have treated Peter like he treated John, then Peter would have never grown.
• 4:46
  Chris Jones: He would have just been growing and conforming in a religion or an idea of just trying to get there.
• 4:53
  Chris Jones: It wouldn't have been the right fit for Peter.
• 4:55
  Chris Jones: Now, again, what I want you to hear is John and Peter had the same destination.
• 5:01
  Chris Jones: These aren't two different places they're going to.
• 5:04
  Chris Jones: Their paths of how they got to that destination look very different.
• 5:08
  Chris Jones: Our paths will all look, I think, very differently from one another, but we're going to the same place.
• 5:16
  Chris Jones: And one of the things that stands out to me anyway about how Jesus dealt with the disciples is there's no threat.
• 5:25
  Chris Jones: This isn't about threat.
• 5:27
  Chris Jones: This is about nurturing of however they need to be nurtured.
• 5:32
  Chris Jones: They're all nurtured differently.
• 5:33
  Chris Jones: And this isn't to say that Jesus didn't get rough with them because there's times he did, but it was out of love.
• 5:39
  Chris Jones: It wasn't to threaten to get them to change.
• 5:43
  Chris Jones: And I guess what I mean by that is there's no threat of hell or eternal torment that if you don't get this right, then you'll be eternally tormented.
• 5:54
  Chris Jones: And for those people who believe in eternal torment, I'm not even saying that you shouldn't or you should or anything like that.
• 6:02
  Chris Jones: All I'm saying is Jesus didn't use it to grow or teach.
• 6:09
  Chris Jones: This is all supposed to be out of love.
• 6:10
  Chris Jones: So even if, even if that was true, why we use it is the primary reason to move and shake and sculpt and change people in their faith is a very weird thing to me.
• 6:23
  Chris Jones: Jesus didn't do it.
• 6:25
  Chris Jones: Jesus taught love.
• 6:26
  Chris Jones: His ministry was love.
• 6:28
  Chris Jones: That's what he was about.
• 6:30
  Chris Jones: And he taught his disciples throughout however he did it, through their nurturing, to get them to the place where they could love like he loved.
• 6:41
  Chris Jones: I mean, ultimately, I think that's what it is, is that we continue and carry on Jesus' ministry.
• 6:48
  Chris Jones: And now I think as we come together in community and we see that God in that one-dimensional way, that's very threatening, that it's an or else situation, our religion starts feeling different.
• 7:01
  Chris Jones: Our growth starts looking different.
• 7:03
  Chris Jones: I mean, it starts feeling like we have to earn our way to God.
• 7:09
  Chris Jones: It starts looking like that mountain I talk about that we create to God.
• 7:14
  Chris Jones: And what I mean by creating a mountain, instead of being encouraged to keep moving on our path of whatever that looks like, we start building this mountain on square one.
• 7:25
  Chris Jones: We just keep piling on top of it in a merit-based religion, that in a community that comes together in that way, then a hierarchy is created within the community.
• 7:36
  Chris Jones: And when you create the hierarchy, then you create the idea that there are people that are more important, and that we all should aspire to be like those more important people and earn our way up the mountain to God, which means nobody is on their path.
• 7:53
  Chris Jones: If you know me, you know that I really like James.
• 7:56
  Chris Jones: And I did a deep dive on James chapter one, and I did four segments, the most amount of time I've ever given to any subject.
• 8:04
  Chris Jones: And there's one thing that I really came away with after deep diving James, and that is this.
• 8:09
  Chris Jones: That James had the same posture as Jesus.
• 8:13
  Chris Jones: That although he is the pastor of the Church of Jerusalem, ground zero for Christianity, there is not a hierarchy in it.
• 8:23
  Chris Jones: That James gets down in the ditch with us and gives us insight and help in dealing with suffering in this life, trying to help us out of the ditch and get to a better place.
• 8:34
  Chris Jones: And keep in mind, James could have sat at the top of the mountain on a throne, but chose to be in the ditch with everyone else as a servant.
• 8:44
  Chris Jones: That James presents religion as something that is there to serve us, have a better life, and help us help others have a better life.
• 8:54
  Chris Jones: And I in no way am trying to tell you you absolutely have to see it like I do.
• 8:59
  Chris Jones: But for me, I come away thinking that the idea of creating a hierarchy to God, that one-dimensional God that doesn't allow for the personal relationship, is a very pharasidical one.
• 9:12
  Chris Jones: That's how the Second Temple operated, which created this idea that we need to serve the religion.
• 9:19
  Chris Jones: So I think for me, the reason why we're seeing deconstruction happening is because so many people were taught through culture and community and the church itself that our community is the destination, that by becoming more religious and more indoctrinated and that belief and that denomination, that we are earning our way up the mountain, which kept us on square one growing in a very awkward way.
• 9:47
  Chris Jones: And the other part of this is why is this so prevalent?
• 9:51
  Chris Jones: Now, again, this is just my opinion.
• 9:53
  Chris Jones: This is just me observing what I see, and this is what I have concluded.
• 9:59
  Chris Jones: You don't have to see it like me.
• 10:01
  Chris Jones: This is just food for thought.
• 10:03
  Chris Jones: But something that I have noticed and something I've observed is that we have taken our political ideology and infused it into our faith on both the left and the right side.
• 10:16
  Chris Jones: And some people that are deconstructing are still taking that with them and reconstructing in a very politicized way.
• 10:26
  Chris Jones: And I don't think that leads to a better place.
• 10:29
  Chris Jones: I think we have to figure out how to unlatch our faith from our politics.
• 10:36
  Chris Jones: And I'm not trying to imply that you shouldn't be involved with politics.
• 10:40
  Chris Jones: But from my perspective, and this is just my thinking, when I read Jesus' teachings, and then I put in context who Jesus was speaking to, these people were expecting Jesus to raise up and be this political figure that destroyed their enemy, which was Rome, because they were occupied by Rome, who was horrific.
• 11:02
  Chris Jones: But they was expecting Jesus to become very political.
• 11:05
  Chris Jones: He said, My kingdom isn't here, but the kingdom is within us, that we become the antidote to this poison that is within humanity.
• 11:17
  Chris Jones: That Jesus was saying essentially, I haven't come to create a social construct.
• 11:23
  Chris Jones: I have come to bring a virtue construct that will come through you that serves everyone.
• 11:30
  Chris Jones: And through that we can make this a better place.
• 11:34
  Chris Jones: You know, and I think about what Paul said to Timothy when he said, don't get involved with local things.
• 11:40
  Chris Jones: In other words, don't get involved with politics and the things that go on here.
• 11:44
  Chris Jones: We answer to a higher power, that we are here on a mission of mercy.
• 11:50
  Chris Jones: Our whole job is to fulfill the ministry of Christ and go out and love and help those people that are hurting, not make enemies out of God.
• 12:01
  Chris Jones: We are not here to set a flag for the kingdom of God here on earth.
• 12:08
  Chris Jones: We are here to manifest the kingdom of God through us in this love for everyone.
• 12:15
  Chris Jones: I'm going to use myself as an example.
• 12:18
  Chris Jones: There is things that my faith requires me to do.
• 12:22
  Chris Jones: I have to do them because I feel like it's important.
• 12:26
  Chris Jones: There's other things that I'm not allowed to do because equally as important, it helps me get to a better place.
• 12:34
  Chris Jones: None of what I believe in my faith should impact you.
• 12:38
  Chris Jones: This isn't about me telling you how you need to believe and trying to infuse it into politics.
• 12:45
  Chris Jones: That when I do that, I am getting out of my chair, my placement of just trying to serve how I need to serve.
• 12:52
  Chris Jones: I because I see it as this is what Jesus has given me to do.
• 12:56
  Chris Jones: This is not what Jesus has given for me to do, and then tell you, now you need to do it too.
• 13:02
  Chris Jones: That we sometimes get out of our seat and we get into a seat that doesn't belong to us.
• 13:10
  Chris Jones: And then from that seat, we start commanding and demanding that other people change their behavior and we want the landscape to become more like I want it to be.
• 13:22
  Chris Jones: And now what we have is two political parties that are claiming God and claiming the other side doesn't know God, and don't call yourself a Christian if you both sides are doing it.
• 13:35
  Chris Jones: That's why I say our political ideology and our faith should be separated.
• 13:39
  Chris Jones: Anytime the church can be manipulated into pushing a political agenda, we're in the wrong place.
• 13:47
  Chris Jones: We're here to help people and love people, not through politics, not by creating a different kind of kingdom that we live in.
• 13:56
  Chris Jones: Not that we shouldn't vote, but how we behave and interact with those people in our lives and on social media.
• 14:07
  Chris Jones: I want you to know that no matter what your political beliefs are, I love you.
• 14:13
  Chris Jones: And I want to give one little final bit of food for thought as we leave this subject on this part.
• 14:20
  Chris Jones: Napoleon said, and this is a paraphrase, that without religion we'll have nothing to keep the poor from killing the rich.
• 14:29
  Chris Jones: That historically those who are in power and those who want power have manipulated the religious to get us to behave in the way they want us to.
• 14:40
  Chris Jones: And that's to serve their power.
• 14:42
  Chris Jones: So if I've said something today on this podcast that you really liked, that jumped out to you, what I would like for you to do is go deep dive it yourself.
• 14:53
  Chris Jones: Go read it, go give it time, get one-on-one with God and get into this and figure out how you believe and read it.
• 15:03
  Chris Jones: Don't go listen to a bunch of videos and let that shape how you believe.
• 15:08
  Chris Jones: The last thing we need is a sound bite theology.
• 15:12
  Chris Jones: And what we need is a relationship theology that speaks to us because that's our path.
• 15:18
  Chris Jones: And my path isn't necessarily your path, but our destinations are the same.
• 15:25
  Chris Jones: Guys, thank you so much for allowing me to do this.
• 15:29
  Chris Jones: And I hope what I say benefits you.
• 15:32
  Chris Jones: If there's something you would like me to know or have a question, then email me at spiritualhotsauce at gmail.com.
• 15:39
  Chris Jones: And please remember to follow the show and share the show.
• 15:43
  Chris Jones: And to quote my good friend H.L.
• 15:45
  Chris Jones: Hussmann Remember, it's not me.
• 15:48
  Chris Jones: It's we.
• 15:49
  Chris Jones: We'll dig in next week.