Latest / Fifteen Minutes With Fritz - Where Scripture Meets the Sidewalk / We can't ignore the topic of Purgatory

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We can't ignore the topic of Purgatory · Fifteen Minutes With Fritz - Where Scripture Meets the Sidewalk

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning everyone, and welcome to another episode of 15 minutes with Fritz, where Scripture meets the sidewalk.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Currently we're studying the book The One Hundred Most Asked Questions About Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to tackle a question that admittedly I know very little about, but that doesn't mean it should be avoided.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: The topic is purgatory, and our question is simply what does the Bible say about purgatory?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now before I continue I want to say that I recognize the sensitive nature of a topic like this, because some of you may be Catholic or you may have grown up in a Catholic home.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore you may believe in the concept of purgatory.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: However, I am not one of them.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: But my responsibility is to teach what I believe to be the truth in love.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot ignore a topic just like this just because it's uncomfortable.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I must be sure to wrap everything I believe and say and teach in the blanket of God's love.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I pray that God will help me do just that today.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now since I'm unfamiliar with the concept of purgatory, I want to begin with some definitions.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: The dictionary defines purgatory as a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating or atoning for their sins before going to heaven.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wikipedia says it is the passing intermediate state after physical death for purifying or purging a soul before entering heaven.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when I asked AI for a simple definition I received the following Purgatory is a temporary intermediate state or process after death, where the souls of people who die in God's grace are purified from their remaining sins before they can enter heaven.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: These help with our understanding what purgatory is, but I'm also curious to know where this idea came from.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why did the Catholic religion include this in their teaching?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one reason I discovered is because of what is written in a book contained in the Apocrypha.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: As a means of review, the Apocrypha is a collection of ancient Jewish books written during the time between the Old and New Testaments.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: The Catholic Church considers these books to be inspired and authoritative scripture.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Protestants, on the other hand, view them as useful historical and moral readings, but do not consider them as part of the inspired word of God, and therefore should not be used as a source for church doctrine.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: There is one verse from the Apocrypha that Catholics believe supports the idea of purgatory.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Listen to what it says.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Based on this one verse, Catholics believe in praying for the dead in order to remove their remaining sins and allow them to enter heaven, and from this the concept of purgatory was built.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So their belief is that people are still sinful when they die, and those sins are atoned for through the prayers, sacrifices, and acts of charity by the living.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's not just that one verse from the Apocrypha, they also believe there are other verses in the Bible, verses that are not part of the Apocrypha, that support their view of the existence of purgatory.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where I'll spend the remaining time in today's podcast.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: In his first letter to the Corinthian Church, the apostle Paul addresses the topic of rewards for the works we perform during our time on earth.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Listen to what he writes in the third chapter, beginning in verse ten.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: But each one should be careful how he builds, for no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: If it is burned up, he will suffer loss.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: He himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Catholics believe this these verses describe a post mortem state where a person's imperfect works are burned away by fire, resulting in personal loss and suffering yet culminating in their eventual salvation.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, purgatory, a temporary place of suffering where the Christian is purified from their remaining sins before they can enter heaven.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: However, I believe the apostle Paul is teaching something different here.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: These verses paint the picture of the Christian's life as a building project.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now I think we can all agree that a foundation has been laid upon which everything in the Christian's life is built upon.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that foundation is Jesus Christ.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: He is the groundwork, the bedrock that supports everything we do.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Once that bedwork is laid that foundation is laid, we are responsible for building on it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: However, we need to be cautious, we need to be careful how we erect the subsequent parts of our building.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because the quality of our works will be tested and revealed in the afterlife.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: His work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: The distinction here is that the Christian isn't being judged, only their works.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let me quote from our book.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: It says If our works are of good quality gold, silver, costly stones, they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if our works are of poor quality wood, hay or straw, they will be consumed by the fire and there will be no reward.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Our book goes on to say these verses refer to the believer escaping through the flames, not being cleansed by the flames.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: There is no purging of sin here, only a testing of works.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: This happens at the judgment seat of Christ that we talked about a couple of weeks ago.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is there that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So while it's true that these verses are describing events that take place after death, they are not revealing a third temporary state where believers go in the afterlife.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: They are a detailed description of how Christ will judge our works through the fire at the judgment seat of Christ.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now there are other verses Catholics view as supporting the idea of purgatory.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: In Matthew twelve thirty two, Jesus makes the following statement Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Catholics argue that this verse implies that sins can be forgiven in the age to come.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, after death the Christian sins follow them into the state of purgatory, and over time those sins can be atoned for.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't believe this is what Jesus is communicating here because there is no mention of a third state.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: What he is saying is that speaking against the Holy Spirit has eternal ramifications, that sin will never be forgiven.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: The parallel passage in Mark three hundred twenty eight supports this.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: He is guilty of an eternal sin.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, sinning against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now before you begin worrying about whether you've committed the unpardonable sin either accidentally or on purpose, let me set your mind at ease.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees after they accused him of healing a demon possessed man through Satan's power.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, the miracles performed by Jesus were Satan's doings, not God's.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: These Pharisees were rejecting the truth and attributing the miracles to the evil one.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And anyone who rejects the truth is rejecting Christ, and therefore because of their unbelief, their sinfulness is not atoned for by the blood of Christ.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: That sin is not so much unpardonable as it is unpardoned, because they rejected the truth of the gospel.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's look at one other passage this time from the Sermon on the Mount.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: I tell you the truth you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: The argument here is that Jesus is using the earthly picture of a debtor's prison to teach a spiritual truth about what will happen in the afterlife.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: If true, then there are debts to be paid in the afterlife, and one will not escape purgatory until you have paid the last penny, in other words, until you have atoned for all of your sins.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that is the point of this illustration by Jesus.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: As Alastair Begg says regarding the interpretation of Scripture, the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: The point of this section of the Sermon on the Mount is reconciliation with others.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: When you read the preceding verses you find that Jesus is emphasizing emphasizing reconciliation.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: First go and be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: The very next verse continues that same line of thinking.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Settle matters quickly with your adversary.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: The parallel passage in Luke twelve also affirms this.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I believe this passage is not promoting the idea of purgatory.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: It is a command from Christ to do everything possible to resolve differences with others.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let me close with one other passage.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've been told that some of the words Jesus spoke on the cross imply that purgatory exists.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: That is another place where believers go before they arrive in paradise.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: The words in question are found in the twenty third chapter of Luke's gospel, where Jesus speaks to the thief on the cross.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, this thief had mocked Jesus just a few hours before, but his heart was miraculously changed as he witnessed Jesus on the cross.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: In verse forty two he asked Jesus to remember me when you come into your kingdom.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus answered him with these powerful words I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Those are such comforting words for the last man to give his heart to Jesus while he suffered on the cross.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: The argument for purgatory comes from the placement of the comma in verse forty three.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I place the if placed after the word today, it changes the whole complexion of the meeting.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see the difference?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: No longer do the words of Jesus imply that that very day the thief would join Jesus in paradise.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: By moving that comma it adds a delay to his arrival in heaven.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Some day the chief the thief would join Jesus.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not today.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: The evidence is overwhelming, however, to leave the comma where it is.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: That phrase I tell you the truth is used seventy eight times in the gospels, all of them by Jesus thirty in Matthew, thirteen in Mark, nine in Luke, and twenty six in John.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: He never adds a time reference like today to the end of the phrase in any of the seventy eight times he said I tell you the truth.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's no compelling reason to change Jesus' normal speech pattern one time in Luke's gospel.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So in conclusion, does the Bible teach that purgatory exists?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't believe so.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Remember the words of the Apostle Paul to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: There is no intermediate step.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's pray.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Your word, O Lord, is a lamp to our feet and a light to our paths.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: May it continue to be that beacon of light, and may you open our eyes through the power of the Holy Spirit and remove anything that stands in the way of its truth.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Let your light shine in us and through us, we pray.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: For Jesus' sake.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now to the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is the end of our podcast, but it's not the end of our story.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.