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From Nervous to Confident: Mastering Industry Relationships Through Repetition · Built by People

• speaker-0: Hello and welcome to Built by People, a DFL podcast that delivers some topical industry insight with a hint of fun, chatting about all things highway infrastructure in the built environment. I'm your host, Richard Jackson. Let's get straight into it. Welcome to today's episode. And today's guest is a personal favourite of mine because we've had a number of conversations where there was a bit of apprehension about coming onto the podcast. However, I'm really excited on the conversation I'm about to have with this guy. It is of course Paul Murphy from D W Windsors, who is not only a colleague in an industry, but a really good friend. Now, to get the conversation started, I want to ask you, Paul, well, first Paul, welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling? speaker-1: nervous as you know. Yeah. You know, I'm from a generation where we could throw away a videotape. speaker-0: Yeah. Don't be nervous. Enjoy it. Okay. To get things going, give us a quick insight into your career. Like how did you get into the lighting industry and you know speaker-1: I ⁓ was quite clever at school. I he was doing A levels. I did the first year and I discovered a social life, and the head of the year gave me a form for Netwest Bank at the time. And I I went and joined NetWest Bank for the first two years of my career. and that was a bit monotonous. And a bit like yourself, I've listened to you on this podcast. ⁓ I went into local career service after two years at the bank. ⁓ looking for something more local, the travelling and everything else into London every single day, ⁓ was getting me down a bit and ⁓ DW Winter could see me straight away. I was in jeans and a jumper and ⁓ went there, they were nice and relaxed, I got the job and that was it. Nineteen years old, and here I am. speaker-0: Dare I ask, thinking back about some of the conversations we've asked as well, was Terry there when you had your interview? speaker-1: No, he wasn't, no. ⁓ no, no, pretty much. I I mean there are people still at DW Windsor that were there then. ⁓ but no, Terry. speaker-0: And how long were you at at DW Windsor? Like talk us how did the career evolve from there? When you went into DW Windsor, what speaker-1: I was on the I was on the ⁓ we call it the sales desk, we call it customer service now. ⁓ dealing with orders, ⁓ customer queries, problems, ⁓ just just got a really good set of experience, you know, good at good and bad, you know. and ⁓ really good product knowledge. So that was the first two years. And then after two years, they ⁓ said, you know you can go out on the road, go and talk to customers, we'll let you loose and ⁓ They gave me ⁓ an Isan Sunny. And ⁓ all I remember about my first company car is the wind mirrors were nice and solid. My first car had droopy wing mirrors, this little Fiesta thirteen hundred S that I had at the time. so ⁓ yeah, loved it. Loved it. And ⁓ went out on the road and ⁓ pretty much that's still what I'm doing. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, you're still on the road today, aren't you? speaker-1: I've I've had a couple of flirtations with management o over over the years, but ⁓ yeah, working with customers is wild. speaker-0: Yeah, I know we've spoke about that and you've said to me that the the human interface and human ⁓ customer interaction is of real value to what you enjoy doing most in your role. Absolutely So taking that back to the early stages of your career, how do you get formally taught about that? You talk about getting the car and going out on the road. What did training look like or was it just a case of get on with it? I mean speaker-1: Absolutely. A little bit of frustration. I've I I've I've had a lot of training, but I've kind of had ⁓ you know, I've d done a bit of I L P I L E as it was. I've done a bit of F L I F L I A as it is now. ⁓ so just ⁓ the the company have always given me what they felt I needed. They didn't give me the whole diploma. If they thought I just needed part three, they I gave me part three, you know. I mean I have done parts one, two, and three of the ILP, for instance. But Yeah, ⁓ and and various sort of training courses along the way. yeah, I've I've tried to keep ⁓ you know, I keep I keep a little album of of all my certificates, you know, but and old photos. So yeah, yeah, it's just pretty much what ⁓ what the company felt I needed at the at that particular time. speaker-0: And did they give you any specific training on how to deal with customers or how to talk to pe you know, more of the we call them softer skills, don't we, in terms of the personal side of it or is that do you think that's just a speaker-1: I think they probably saw that I I was all right. You know, I didn't I didn't kind of lose it, you know. You know when you're losing it inside, but you can hide it. so I think they saw that in the two years that I was dealing with a lot of the same things, but you know, at a desk on on the phone. and so th those same soft skills ⁓ I just just carried on with. you know, look looking back, you know, there was still a lot to learn. About dealing with contractors and ⁓ consultants and and the mixed local authorities, all those all those sorts of things. ⁓ and the the different dynamics around those. and it takes time. You you know, I I I think ⁓ when you first go out, there are no relationships. You know, it is just you, isn't it? It's the legwork that you're doing, it's the knowledge and the s the support you can give your clients that gets those relationships going. And and some of those relationships back in the early nineties are still there. Yeah. You know that a lot of them are retired. But th there's a there's there's a few that are still still out there no names. I think speaker-0: I think there's a real synergy in what you're talking about there in the l longevity of building them relationships and it's really hard to start up relationships. A bit like what we're talking about now. You're like, I'm a bit nervous to do this because it's a different form of communication, if you like. Yes. But you're a great communicator. Like, you know, you look at how we interact, so you know, when the microphones aren't here and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: How but this all started, Richard. Sorry to sorry to interrupt. You know, you you ⁓ I I did a you you're a member at the ILP event in February, I think it was. You know, I'd all I'd used your picture in one of my my my sales meeting presentations. I th I think I said something like, We all need to be a little bit more, Richard, you know. And ⁓ what I meant was the bravery. Because you started really, yeah, quite inexperienced as you know, as the first time. And ⁓ Little did I know you turned the turned that into this. Yeah. But ⁓ you know, I suppose you you know, if I if I was brave enough to put you up on my presentation, then I need to be brave enough to sit here, don't I? speaker-0: And I think i it's quite interesting 'cause I don't see it as brave enough for me. Maybe I should say stupid enough to do it. But you are right. There is a there's an apprehension there of and it's it's it's interesting how it changes 'cause I remember back in the early days of things like you say and starting them relationships and starting them conversations are really tricky things to be able to master. Yes. And I think as we've developed, I think You you get used to it, you get more comfortable with it, isn't it? And it's yeah, yeah. It's a really interesting thing how it all comes from repetition. You know, when we're looking at business, obviously you the role you sit in now where you're looking at key account and business development and sales, you know, I don't know how much marketing comes into that, but you're well aware that it starts with the marketing funnel, doesn't it? You've got you've got to get the brand out there and we talk about business brand versus personal brand now. And this is very much how the world's changing. How you know you look at AI and everything else that's going on. But people buy from people, don't they? And it's really interesting how we develop that. And I guess one of the questions I had for you is in terms of your role, what do you find most enjoyable? What gives you the most satisfaction in the role? speaker-1: I'm it's a bit of a cliche, but it's the long-term relationship. So you know, I do you know, to to to be able to sell, you do need a tenacity and to be able to ⁓ you know, go and knock on ten ten doors, get nine no's, and then you know, and the the tenth is a yes. So you you kind of have to have that bravery. But I do enjoy now, at this stage of my career, having a lot of long-standing relationships. And for sure there's new ones coming along all the time, new people join the industry. But it is those long term and I and I think that is, if you like, I hope that's my brand, if if you like, is that i you know, if we do a if we do a an incentive, say we launch a new product at DW Windsor, I'm rarely first to selling fifty of them or, you know, five grand or whatever it might be. But over five years, I I I probably I'm good, y you know. speaker-0: Is this where we call you Mr. Consistent? Yeah. And I think again, going back so you've been at DW Windsor so it's 20 years at the minute, but you were there obviously before that. How's that? I think it goes back to calling you Mr. Consistent. There's obviously a really strong understanding between yourself and the business there. Yeah. But that business has also seen a lot of change, hasn't it? How how's that been for you? How's that journey been over the last three years? speaker-1: That's right, exactly, yeah. The r the reason I joined DW Winsor is that I I at the bank every day was the same. Yeah. Fantastic social life. And and taught me some some some good stuff about the big cor kind of corporate world, big company things. but ⁓ what I've what what's kept me at DW Windsor is every day is different. ⁓ the people I'm dealing with are different, ⁓ projects every day are different. ⁓ and the company's different. DW Windsor, I don't know, it's kind of, I don't know, the Madonna of the Lighting World. I don't know. But it's it's very different. Every few years there are new products, a new strategy, new, new people. ⁓ so it doesn't feel like the same company at all. When I joined, there were a handful of heritage lighting products. ⁓ and we've gradually kind of evolved that into performance products and now doing great big LED rollouts and ⁓ And the other thing is that that balance of QDOS versus volume, big big numbers, if you like. And I get both of those at DW Windsor. ⁓ you know, I can be doing two lanterns on the front of I don't know, mansion house. ⁓ and then thousands of lanterns into ⁓ a it's kind of a PFI or an LED upgrade sort of thing. And both are satisfying. I know the CEO of our company which one he prefers, but speaker-0: Most CEOs do though, don't they? speaker-1: But ⁓ for me that's my motivation. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: I hope you're enjoying the show so far. Our goal with this is to build something for the whole industry to feel a part of. So please don't forget to like and subscribe and drop a comment with any thoughts or suggestions for future episodes. Just evolving that, ⁓ it'd be great to understand what is your been your f mo most enjoyable project to work on? speaker-1: fairly recently the City of London LED upgrade. ⁓ 'cause that kind of embodies y you know the passions I have with DW Windsor is the you know, the big numbers of kind of functional products and the heritage products, you know, a couple of really fantastic conservation lanterns. with the CMS. So we're marrying that technology with the kind of the conservation and the the functional side of lighting as well. Yeah. And and They're a great client as well. They actually use the CMS. They don't just it's not just a big on off switch that you know a lot of people just think it is. and ⁓ yeah, they're actually monitoring all the savings and ⁓ dimming properly. So so really good. But but when a lot when I was a l lot younger, probably y you know, what kind of took me from boy to a man was the Blue Water ⁓ project. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ at the time it was probably one third the the the annual turnover of ⁓ of DW Windsor at the time. And ⁓ yeah, yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ what was involved in that? Was that like loads of different products or was it the scale of it? speaker-1: Being in the you know, th the project started by kind of being in the right place at the at the at the right time. An inquiry came into into the office, a telephone inquiry. Spears and major might have been even being Graham Spears at the time, was making inquiries and I just happened to be walking through and I was like, I better take that, you know, that that might be important. and ⁓ yeah, went went in into in to see them and ⁓ yeah, just started ticking all the right aesthetic and technical boxes. ⁓ you know, the the age old DW wins a cell, you know, it's it's it's technically good but looks really good too. ⁓ so ⁓ yeah that at the time ⁓ was was was fabulous for speaker-0: Amazing. And in terms of you talk about clients and collaboration, how much how much value do you put on that in a project in terms of collaboration? speaker-1: Massive, absolutely massive. You know, and we were talking about projects earlier this week where, you know, if all of those ingredients aren't there, you you kind of get a sense that maybe this the stars aren't going to align for us on this project. But when they do, you get a good vibe, don't you? You get to see this this might be all right, you know, you know. ⁓ so ⁓ yeah, collaboration is absolutely massive. speaker-0: And you're right, there's there's no better feeling than when a project comes together. Yeah. But can I ask, what type of loser are you? ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, my head drops. My head drops. But I do remember years ago one of the ⁓ sales and marketing directors at the time instilled in me a positivity, you know. And I would sometimes come into the office at the end of the day, ⁓ terrible day, I've lost this, I've done something's gone wrong. ⁓ stay positive. No matter what, stay positive. And that stayed with me. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm not a good loser, but I I feel yeah, I'm probably dig lose with dignity, is that right? speaker-0: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you say that. I d I ⁓ recently lost a really, really big project. Yeah. And I remember ⁓ someone said to me, How you feeling? And I was like, ⁓ I'm so annoyed, but I can't stop there and I very quickly go, How do I turn the positive into it? So then you start to understand speaker-1: Get a sense someone something's not working for you, don't you? Yeah, you know, you can see someone or something about your product. It's it's not quite aligning here. ⁓ it's it's not often when all those things align that you lose. You know, most people are are decent. speaker-0: I think the best thing is to unpick that, like you say, with dignity and say I can't just sit here and say we didn't win because they don't understand me. You have to sit there and go, We didn't win 'cause yes, that wasn't propositioned in the right way or speaker-1: We had one this week, Richard. We were talking downstairs, you know I've I've won I've won it three times and lost it three times. Hopefully I'm winning it, but you know, all in a week. speaker-0: All of that comes from the communication element again, doesn't it? Building them relationships and that's what we talk about here. We're built by people. There's a massive AI surge that's coming through, and everyone's talking about AI, marketing, social media, business development is going in saying how can we use AI to do it? But I don't think you can lose the human touch. No. In terms of AI and things like that, how are you seeing that on the day to day in your role? speaker-1: will use it to tidy up an email for me, you know, and often I'll, you know, I'll say, can you make this sound less AI, please? More formal, less American. so yeah, I I think that's the main thing ⁓ for me is is is day to day emails. Just tidying those up. But I I'm finding that I often have to go pretty much back in and make it sound like me again in in any case. But speaker-0: And I think that's the unique speaker-1: Not from the AI generation. speaker-0: I think that's the unique element though, isn't it? Is that it gives it gives you a basis for something and I don't think AI will ever truly take over what we do, particularly in the you know, key account management. Yeah. We're constantly I use this phrase and it's not about we're constantly problem solving. And that's not that there's they're bad problems, they're just solutions to a client. speaker-1: AI can only give you solutions that it knows. You know, it can't think on its feet. You know. ⁓ so ⁓ yeah, no, I I a hundred percent agree. You you know, and I think ⁓ again, I was on a call earlier this week where the longer I'm in this, the more responsibility I kind of feel to do the right th I mean, I've always done the right thing, but the customers put a lot of responsibility on me. ⁓ I I I think when they see the experience. They realise I don't have to give him too much of a brief. He'll know what to do. And with that sometimes it's a bit of burden. But I'm quite glad of it too. speaker-0: But that that's testament to the trust and the relationship building that you've carried out and built over the years and speaker-1: Yeah, it's just important to do the right thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the consistency is continuing to do the right thing all the time and and people end up trusting. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. So as we progress, I really want to talk to you about the pressure of sales and with a bit of fun versus the pressure of the podcast, because I know you felt pressure on this podcast, but you're doing fantastic. So don't worry about the pressure of the podcast. However, how do you deal with that sales element with the pressure? ⁓ speaker-1: Crikey, I I I I'm a a big believer in i if if if you keep doing the right things, the good things will will happen to you. You know, I've seen people and myself included, you know, at the end of the day, like I was saying earlier, you finish your day I've been rubbish today. But then the next day's going to be a great day. You know, something good will alwa always happen. And that's that's sales, isn't it? You know, just as you're on your knees, someone phones, an order comes and picks you straight back up again. And you're off running. so I th I think as long as you keep doing all the right things and ⁓ the I kind of the the the three main metrics at DW Windsor are kind of calls. And that can be that can be classed as an email, a telephone call, a meaningful telephone call, not just hello there, mate. ⁓ so and and actual face-to-face visits, ⁓ as well as ⁓ generating new projects. And of course orders. Okay. So those three things. ⁓ so I think if if you're not getting orders but the other two things are great, then hopefully your boss and you are feeling great, you know? And you can go to your boss and sort of we have this chat all the time. If you're not doing so great on your figures, you know, tell your boss about all the calls you're doing, the new projects you're you're bringing in and quoting. ⁓ so yeah, if you're down on all three of those, then yeah, maybe maybe it's not the right choice. speaker-0: Particularly in obviously we're an engineering consultancy and we have less it sales marketing and B D is less of a thing in our consultancy. Whereas you're obviously product based and selling. It's really interesting to listen to that element of the conversation. Yes. Because it's only in the past few years, I'd say, as we've shaped DFL and you look at the numbers, it's you're right. There's there's so many great metrics to look at. Just because you have a bad sales month, yes, if you've quoted through the roof, you can start to build speaker-1: Exactly. ⁓ speaker-0: Exactly that, yeah. Just talking about the sales element of it and you mentioned there about calls, emails, this, that, the other. What do you what's the best way for you? How do you best want to communicate with your clients in terms of just getting to speaker-1: Like this face to face. Yeah, face to face. Yeah, yeah. But obviously since pandemic times it's it's less and ⁓ we've all got fantastic setups at home now. And ⁓ and I do like it. I've got all my screens and and catalogues and all all that sort of thing, and it works really, really well. ⁓ but face to face, ⁓ yeah, definitely. speaker-0: Do you mind me asking, what does a typical week look like? How many days would you say you're out and about versus speaker-1: ⁓ I'd say I'm out one or two days only. and ⁓ the rest of the time at home. I I may go into the D W Windsor office once a month. That's that's about it really. ⁓ but I'm on Teams loads. You you know, I was joking with ⁓ with somebody earlier, you know, you feel like you've met someone even when it's just on Teams or on you've liked something on LinkedIn. So I'm a great fan of of ⁓ being on camera on Teams and ⁓ that kind of almost gives me the same face to face feeling speaker-0: It's really interesting that again 'cause I chuckle. I shouldn't really talk about this, but internally and externally, I think you can always see a sales or marketing or B D person versus a technical person, whether their camera's on or off. ⁓ okay. I think the sales people are there are like, Hi, look at me, come on, like, let's talk face to face. And the technical people are like, I need to get this design done, I need to do this, that, the other, and they're like, I don't want the camera on, I just speaker-1: Better when the camera's on, I think, you know. You actually feel like you've had a meeting then, don't you? speaker-0: But n notwithstanding that, I agree with you. Face to face is the best way of doing it. And I think one of the things I think we'll see a lot more of is more networking events, more face to face events. Obviously, we're here at the Savoy today to on the LoLeg element of it all. You know, we've got the ILP summits coming up, we've got the HEA conferences. I think they're gonna sort see a resurgence personally, because there's so much value in that face to face interaction. Yeah, great. Where you get One on one time. I feel sometimes when you're on teams you get so many distractions by pings and everything else going off. So yeah, I'll be I'll be interested to see how that evolves and what that looks like moving forward. So speaker-1: Yeah. No, but I love it. Even e you know, even if it's a formally or organised meeting, I actually kind of just treat it like a telephone now. Maybe I'm a bit annoying, but yeah, I just I'm on video call the whole time. No, it's And you would never have done that seven or eight years ago, would you? speaker-0: Well, and again, interestingly, going back to where we were saying you you know, you're all out and about probably one or two days a week, you were saying. Yeah. What did that look like fifteen years ago? ⁓ speaker-1: Out in about four slash five days a week, you know, and ⁓ it was almost like a guilty secret staying at home and do having an admin day or a half day. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, I'm I'm a great fan of sort of the admin, you know. If I could be out seeing customers every single day, I'd do the admin on the hoof. Yeah. You know, I wouldn't wanna I think it's impossible to save it all up for a day and just to have an admin day. speaker-0: Yeah, con I think we can both chuckle at that. I know if my team are looking at it, I think people that enjoy being out and about talking to people are terrible at their admin, aren't they? They're like, I'll do that tomorrow, I'll do that tomorrow. So speaker-1: Yeah, feel like I'm y yeah, there there's th I sometimes I feel like the best salespeople are maybe not the best at at admin stuff. speaker-0: I'd a hundred percent agree with that and I'm thinking about myself that I'm terrible with admin. So Yeah. One question I did want to ask is what do you in terms of an industry, a lighting industry, what do you think we're getting wrong with maybe product or the what we're doing? Is there anything you would change or? speaker-1: No, do you know what? I think everything's really come of age of of late. you know, I think for a long time LED kind of LED's hit the market just after a downturn in the economy. So it took a while for lantern manufacturers to be able to afford to invest in in dedicated LED products. ⁓ but that's really come of age. CMS has come of age, you know. I think the next step is really encouraging people to actually fully exploit CMS. Don't just switch on and off. You know, you can dim, you can change profiles, all all of these sorts of things. I mean for us the next the the next thing is is is is is solar. I mean it's here and and and and now and it's just making sure that people realise even in grey old UK, there's a place for it. Yeah. ⁓ I I know you guys know that DFL but ⁓ there is there is and we're we're putting a lot of effort into convincing people that there is a place for solar in this country. ⁓ yeah, and you can now integrate CMS and all sorts of speaker-0: I think you're right. CMS is a really interesting one because I think that's the the push and pull on that is that it's a product that goes into the public sector and the public sector are struggling with the c resource capacity to an ele to an extent to truly be able to use it. Yes. And I think in as an industry we can help them to try and maybe explore and utilise much more out of that to get more out of their assets, sweat their asset as they call we call it. speaker-1: Yeah, some plants are really good at it, but others less so I have to say. speaker-0: Yeah. No, good stuff. Yeah. Are there any questions you wanted to ask me? speaker-1: There aren't Richard. You sure just release this is over. speaker-0: Don't be like that. I wanna say a massive thank you to Paul. It's been a pleasure to interview him and I think you'll all agree. Drop a like in the comments below or even a comment for Paul because he has taken a real leap of faith to do this and it has been an absolute pleasure to have the conversation. Thank you, Rich. Well done. Thanks for listening. As we've mentioned, we're keen for this to become a podcast for the whole industry. So please, feedback is welcome. speaker-1: Thank you. Cheers, mate. speaker-0: Also, don't forget to like and subscribe if you want to hear more.