Latest / Authentic Living / The Power in the Middle: Elizabeth O'Brien on Midlife Resilience, Values, and Personal Growth

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The Power in the Middle: Elizabeth O'Brien on Midlife Resilience, Values, and Personal Growth · Authentic Living

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Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
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about things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
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Everyone, it's Roxanne Durhodge.
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Thanks for tuning in again today with Authentic Living with Roxanne.
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Today, have a special guest, Elizabeth O'Brien.
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Elizabeth, how are you today?
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I'm doing well.
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Thank you for having me, Roxanne.
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So I get, like, someone with the same kind of background.
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So what kind of podcast do you think this is gonna be?
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We have a lot of parallels in her background.
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She's got a PhD in psych is it psychology?
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It's counselor education.
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Counselor education.
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She's the director of the School of Professional Studies at the College of Health,
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Educational and Professional Studies, University of Tennessee at Chattanooga.
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She's the chair of the American Counseling Association, and she's presented nationally on
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topics like wellness, marriage, couples, which is something that I specialized in, spiritual
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and ethical decision making, and rural mental health delivery.
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Why we're here today, not the only reason, but the reason is because she's written a book, The
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Power in the Middle.
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And it's a compelling exploration of midlife and the transformative opportunity to realign
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with one's core values and beliefs and boundaries.
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Elizabeth Welkin, what a topic.
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And I said, I happen to be both for psychological and midlife.
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I have
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a feeling we're gonna have a great time today.
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I promise you that.
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So tell us a little bit about what got you on the path.
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Like, obviously, you're you are a full time professor now.
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What made you you've been doing kind of strategy and programs and teaching all those
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things.
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What made you get to the point where you thought came up with the idea of re writing the
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power in the middle?
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It's a twofold thing.
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I often will teach human development.
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So that is one of the classes that I teach.
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So human development for counselors oftentimes, because when we are engaging with our clients,
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we have to know what looks like typical development across the lifespan, and then what
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looks like perhaps atypical development.
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So there was that piece of, in the back of my head, I have always thought it'd be really fun
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to write a human development book.
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And there are a lot of really good ones out there, but I think I could put my own spin on
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it.
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And that was one idea that's been kind of percolating in the back of my head.
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And then, sorry to go deep here so quickly in, but in 2021, my father passed away.
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And as so often happens in midlife, at any point in your life, but in particular in
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midlife, when we lose someone who is important to us, particularly a parent, there were
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aspects of his life that I didn't understand until his life had ended and really could see
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the whole arc of his story.
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And it really pushed me to think about like, where am I at in the arc of my own story?
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Where are all of us as women in the arc of our own story?
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And then how is it that I could perhaps create this human development perspective, but overlay
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it with the space that we are in as women in midlife?
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And that was really where it started.
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It was kind of the dovetailing of those two ideas that came together.
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And it just ignited in me and it became something that grew legs.
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It took a long time.
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It takes a minute to write a book.
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And so it was a process.
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It takes a little bit to find a publisher and to find someone who believes in your idea as
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much as you do.
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But that was really sort of the origin story of it, that dovetailing of those two ideas and
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events that had occurred.
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I think of when I was going to school and a lot of the textbooks, you know, they're kind of,
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like you said, the lifespan, they're like we talk about all the early development.
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The last one that when you're doing it well is wisdom and generativity.
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Generativity?
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Yes.
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That's a hard word to say.
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Generativity is not easy.
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Right.
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But really not.
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Now we're kind of thinking, unfortunately, my mom's getting older and she's not doing as
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well.
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And when I go visit her it's funny you're bringing up that story.
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I'm tell you a story.
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My mom's she's not well.
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We're probably gonna lose her in the next little while.
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But when I go and she's not lucid, it's interesting you said what you said about your
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father's overarching story.
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Well, I sat there and I was thinking what her life was like.
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She had six children.
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Wow.
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And had all of us by the age 29, was a homemaker, obviously with six kids, grew up in
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Trinidad to make a little island.
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And we were her life.
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And I was looking at her hands.
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I took a picture of her hands with my hands on Mother's Day.
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I love this so much.
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Was just thinking, I did a post and I said, what I thought of today when I look at my
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mother's hands and with my hands is how many, you know, little she makes she used to dress us
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all the same.
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How many things she made, how many meals she she made?
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How many birthday cakes she baked?
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How many times when we were crying because we were bullied at school, she had to and it was
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like that kind of thing.
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Like, when you said that word overarching story, I was having that moment for myself and
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me, being 59, gonna be 60, it was like one of those things.
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So it's amazing that you thought I went I love what you said, your father's the things that
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you didn't know about your dad that you learned after.
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That must have been powerful.
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It was, of course.
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And to again, it was like certain things just didn't make sense until he was done with his
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life.
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Some of that, my life didn't make sense.
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And again, this is the end of a person who is dear to you's life is it's profound.
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It's life changing.
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It makes you think not only of your own loss.
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We feel those losses so profoundly because these people are meaning full to us, to some
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degree, it's a sign of our love.
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And so I think that there were just memories that crystallized in a very different way after
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he was gone.
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And I think also provides sharp relief and perspective for who we want to be as we move
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forward.
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And I don't want to sound immature.
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I've had people in my life pass away before.
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However, I think I have not been this close to caring for someone at the end of their life.
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It was my privilege to do that.
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I am grateful that I had that opportunity.
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And so I do, I think that it really sparked something in me.
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Okay, what are the things that I've held onto?
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What are the things that I saw him hang onto that I saw him shrug off or let go of?
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Or I see my mother's still living, so what do I see her shrug off and not worry about as much?
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Or just, again, these are things that have passed because they have maturity, they have
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wisdom and they have been through it and it's not as meaningful to them, or it doesn't have
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the same perspective for them at this stage of their life or at the end of your life than it
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does in the here and now.
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And I think that really, that notion that I came to as I started this book of like your
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boundaries and your beliefs and your values that really guide your life and thinking about
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what do those look like in midlife?
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Because they look different than what they did when you were younger.
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That's the natural evolution.
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And they may well look different as you get older, but the boundaries, values, beliefs that
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we hold now are gonna be the things that carry us forward into this phase of life, but into
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the next phase of life as well.
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And so being very solid in what we believe, how we are, and what are the boundaries that we
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have, so that way we can live very spherically and healthily, I think is so important.
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And that was really what it boiled down to in this book was how can we do that, but do it on
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several different levels, thinking about different ways that we function as humans.
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And I think as women today, Elizabeth, I don't know if you'd agree, we have such capacity to
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do so many things that our mothers didn't do.
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I think about it, right?
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I was able to work virtually when I had my son and have a career.
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And as they say, am I talking to our mummies, other mummies, but I got the ability to go back
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and step back into the corporate arena and those types of things.
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Right?
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Now, so women and a lot of, of course, the baby boomers and stuff like that, they're still like
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they're vibrant.
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They are raring to go.
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Yes.
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Was supposed to be, you know, you're gonna be six or you're I'm like, no.
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There's no slowing down.
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There's I got stuff to do.
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Bet you have actually more stuff to do, if I'm being honest.
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Absolutely.
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And I'm like, okay.
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Now what?
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And then that you realize kind of the things that you have to start to do in order to
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maintain the momentum because you have to be I'm gonna say you have to be respectful for the
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fact that you are aging Yeah.
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And your body needs certain things that maybe thirty years ago, you didn't even have to blink
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an eye at.
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And today, you're like, oh, jeez.
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If I stay up late and have these two commitments, I'm gonna kinda be flailing for
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the next two.
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Kinda how do I it's looking through a different lens.
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So what have you found about caring for yourself and, like, in that space of kinda down
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the middle, the power of the middle?
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What have
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you Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Roxanne, a, I love that because I too cannot stay up late any longer.
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So I feel very connected to you right now in that respect.
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I have a I have an earlier bedtime than I did when I was a young child, which I don't know
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what that says about me, but I respect it a lot better than I did when I was a young child too.
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I think that you have hit the nail on the head.
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I think that our physical progression, our physical development, as we move into midlife,
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we do become more aware of how human we are and the frailties that we experience.
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Our stamina isn't the same.
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The way that we are able to build muscle isn't necessarily the same.
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The way we have to caretake our bodies, making sure that if we have the opportunity to go to
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doctors, that we are going to doctors and engage in preventative care.
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I was having a wonderful conversation with my cousin yesterday evening, and she was talking
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about some preventative care things that she had to take care of.
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And she said in her head, or she said to me, I knew that this was going to be one of those
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years where we're going to find some things.
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And they're not bad things, but it's like, have to respect the fact that things are going to
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start emerging.
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You know, you get your blood work back and it's not as pretty as it to be.
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And of course that could happen at any stage of life, but then it's, well, do I need to change
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my diet now because those triglycerides are not looking as good as they should or whatever.
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And I don't know how that happened because it just snuck up on me.
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I did not change my diet, Like what has occurred?
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And so I do think that there are those pieces where we have to steward our own bodies
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differently.
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And differently to me means to be more aware.
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Like you said, it used to be that I could get by on six hours of sleep.
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I am not that human anymore.
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And I have to respect that I'm not that human anymore because if I want to function
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optimally, I have to treat this body very differently at this stage of my life.
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And that is a hard comeuppance that you do have to kind of get used to.
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And I know it's like almost somebody sending me a memo that you've got to do all these things,
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but you still feel like you can do it all without the memo.
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Absolutely.
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And
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you're like, oh, I knew I shouldn't have done this.
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Or I shouldn't have accepted an extra invitation and I stayed out way too long.
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And then I'm like, I'm depleted for the rest of the week or whatever.
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And even like I find, and again, that stage, like you said, like cognitively and the
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capacity to be able to be optimal now tuning into what is that optimal time.
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So what have you found in writing in that space around things like, I would say emotional
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resilience as well as cognitive capacity.
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What happens and what are you seeing that people are saying about those things?
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I think what I have found is in our profession, we talk about that window of tolerance, right?
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Like our tolerance for distress and how if we are ourselves emotionally distressed or
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physically distressed, if our allostatic load is high.
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So if our body is fighting to stay regulated and we're throwing maybe not the best nutrition
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at it, or we're maintaining a very sedentary lifestyle, if we're staying in high stress
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situations and that allostatic load goes up and our body is fighting to stay regulated, what we
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find is that distress tolerance window shuts down.
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We're not able to be as patient with ourselves, as patient with other folks in our
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relationships.
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We're not as resilient because we are either disregarding or ignoring what's being thrown at
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us.
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Roxanne, I think it would be unfair to say that this is something that we do purposefully.
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I think sometimes, and again, this is the pragmatism of women, men too, but I see this a
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whole lot more in women is I just got to keep going because we got to keep doing this I got
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to get through X, Y, and Z.
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I got to get my kid to here.
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I got to get my partner X or Y or Z.
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And that's not that we as women aren't asking for help.
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It's that we're taking on so many things.
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And at this stage of life, many things are being thrown at us, right?
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Like you and I have both just talked about experiences of helping to care give an elderly
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parent.
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There are other responsibilities that we have.
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Also, we have to maintain our jobs and what we do.
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Heaven forbid, we try to take care of ourselves.
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Heaven forbid, we still have a hobby, like for the five minutes that we have time, right?
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So to answer your question, I think that what we are finding is and what people are
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communicating to me and what I have found through research is that window of tolerance,
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it's shutting down, but it's because so many things are being thrown at us and we are
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neglecting ourselves either through willful neglect or purposefully because it's what we
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have to do to get through a particular season in our lives.
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So hopefully that's clear and makes sense.
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Oh, absolutely.
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And I think, like, to your point, and I oftentimes wonder, like, my with my mom, what
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did she do different compared to me who is still at full throttle kind of thing?
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Yeah.
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And the differences.
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So I don't know if you know anything about the research there.
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If if if women, say, a generation before, were doing things that are different because
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pressures or the stressors weren't as much compared to now?
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Are there some pieces of wisdom that they have imparted or that you've learned that they've
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done better than we did?
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And are we just doing things longer?
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Are we taking on more?
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We've got kids in activities.
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People have kids in activities and they're still working full time and doing lots of
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things.
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It seems like we're doing a lot more.
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I think you're really speaking to sort of, as you said, those generational differences.
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So if we look at like the silent generation and older baby boomers, they did not have as many
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of the opportunities that say our Gen X and millennial counterparts have had.
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And so when I did my research, what I saw was that Gen X was the very, that first generation.
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So our boomer parents and our boomer elders were the first ones to sort of break through
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that glass window of being able to have a career.
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They were also the first women who had latchkey kids.
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And so that was its own like navigation that they had to manage.
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When you get into Gen X, they truly are the first generation of women who were told, You
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can have and do it all, but none of us knew what the consequences of that were.
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Then we've got our millennials who are following suit with that and our Gen X, very
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burnt out generation.
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Ada Calhoun wrote the book, Why We Can't Sleep.
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I think that's a really good reminder and ethnographic study of different women's
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experiences of truly why they can't sleep.
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The stressors of being able to try to take care of yourself financially.
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This myth that we were told that we could have it all, but we really can't because something's
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got to give.
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And then we've got millennials who are maybe buying into the paradigm of one thing or
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another, right?
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So I can go full throttle on maybe family life, but I'm gonna dial it back a little bit on
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career or vice versa.
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What we're seeing is folks are really dialing into career and relationships, or they don't
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look as attractive.
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And I don't know that any of this is right or wrong to circle back to your original question,
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like what were our mothers doing?
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I think they didn't necessarily have all same opportunities that we have and bless them, they
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did not have social media for that.
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I am grateful.
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And so I think like the world is smaller and it is infinitely more navigable now, but at the
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same time, it's infinitely busier.
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Our moms were a lot less connected.
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My mom didn't have a cell phone when she was trying to do X, you either got her or you
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didn't, right?
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Or you solved your own problems.
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And I think that those are the things that are a little bit different.
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And I think there was a lot less maybe comparative work going on in terms of with my
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family's doing x, y, and z, does your family need to be doing x, y, and z?
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Not that that hasn't always happened, but we weren't documenting it the way that we document
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it now on social media and other places.
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No, here I am in Rome with my family and Yeah,
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and we're all happy.
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Yeah,
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not the beautiful, everything's perfect and we know that illusion that people are chasing,
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that's a tough thing.
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Let's go back to then, you know, these are the pressures.
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Right?
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Mhmm.
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So we gotta go back to, like you said, value alignment.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Boundaries.
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Mhmm.
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And really kind of mapping I'm gonna say mapping out kinda now till whenever.
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Right?
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Like as you said, that arc, that arc that let's say women, what is it that you want and how do
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you know you're out of alignment?
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If this is new, let's say with a generation, how do you know?
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Like, am I because when I was in corporate, Elizabeth, I was one of the first women that
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got pregnant on the executive team.
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Trailblazer.
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And I was like, well, okay, this is going down.
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And back then it was pregnant, that's just that and I wasn't there very long.
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It wasn't planned.
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And you could hear, but you couldn't hear.
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You could feel it.
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I was like, oh, so they're like, how what are we gonna do with your portfolio?
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And I'm like, I guess you'll have to in my mind, I didn't say it out loud.
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You'll have to figure it out.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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And then I was off for a year on those and I was going to, you know, presentations.
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I was like until I was, like, eight months pregnant, those pitching events, those types of
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things.
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But what happened is after that, a lot of because a lot of his supports my supports were
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most of the people, the executives were female.
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And then eventually people started to get pregnant.
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So it was like kind of because what I saw is either people did it, like had their children
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or they waited too long, Right?
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So to which is speaking to what you're saying.
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Right?
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Either do the do the corporate bit, and we had ridiculous hours, or you do the home thing.
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So it's like a either or.
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And that I remember my dilemma when I went off on mat leave was what am I gonna do?
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Because I wanna be a mom and I wanna be a great mom.
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To your point, believing that I could do both.
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And then feeling split so much time.
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Right?
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And then I started to realize I have to I had to make a shift, which luckily I had the
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opportunity to be able to do that and go virtual way back when none of that worked out.
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So I was lucky or else I probably would have quit at that point based on what you said
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values.
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So for women that are listening and they're saying, oh my goodness, are those two reading
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over my mind?
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What kinds of things should they be thinking about or what have you written in the book that
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would allow women to really do that story arc as they look forward?
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No, A, thank you for asking that question.
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Thank you for being a trailblazer in your former work that you were doing because yeah,
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your life waits for no one.
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Right?
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So if this is what you want
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Yeah.
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And I felt like for people I didn't do was okay.
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Unfortunately, when I go back to those people, some of the people I worked with, a lot of some
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of them delayed it too long, which is so unfortunate, right?
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That's hard.
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That's a regret.
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And so I think that I really appreciate that story.
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And I think that there are probably many folks that can resonate with that.
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And so to your question, one of the very first things that I do, I wanna say it's probably the
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second chapter of the book, is actually I created a values sort.
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And so I ask women to literally go through and think about what are your top 10 values and
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talk about, sometimes our values might feel sort of counter to each other, but really
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thinking about what do you value right now?
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And one of the better ways to figure out if you value something is if you read it and you have
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maybe even a negative reaction to it, right?
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It'll tell you all of our values don't necessarily elicit a positive feeling.
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Sometimes they elicit a negative feeling, but that tells us something about what we do value.
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And Roxanne, kindred souls that we are in terms of helping professionals.
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So when I conceptualized this book, I was very clear that pretty much in every chapter that
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you're gonna go through, there's some form of an exercise.
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So we hearken back into those values in each chapter, and there might be sort of a
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reflection or a written exercise.
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There's some more creative things that we do in the career chapter, where we look at what is
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your pie chart basically, and where are you putting your time and energy and how much of
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the pie does your career get and how does that reflect your values or not reflect your values?
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So when I conceptualized this book, I really wanted it to have some of those reflective
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practices, some opportunities to really do some experiential learning for the reader.
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And I did that because what I thought about was like, not everybody's gonna come to me, but
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I've got some pretty cool tricks and tools that I've used with my clients over the years.
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And how can I share those in a meaningful way?
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But again, link that back to this phase of life.
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And so that value sort is the very first thing that we do.
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I think of this book as more a conversation between friends.
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And then we move forward and we really look at what are some other exercises that you can
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engage in.
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When I talk about leisure, I think about, I ask folks to look at leisure across the lifespan
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and think about what was your leisure in early childhood?
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What is your leisure now?
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And then what do you dream it might be as you get older?
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Because again, oftentimes we don't think about leisure as much as we could or should.
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So you'll see those embedded pieces in there that really try to hone in on what are those
23:13
values that you initially identified, and then how can we look at that in each facet of your
23:17
life and functioning at the space that you're in in midlife.
23:21
I love that you project forward.
23:23
Right?
23:23
Because when you hear the stats I remember when I went to my naturopath in my mid fifties, and
23:29
he said that the average person at that age was on five medications.
23:33
It blew me away.
23:35
I was like, what?
23:36
He goes, how many are you on?
23:37
I'm like, does vitamins count?
23:40
Yeah.
23:40
Because I didn't know.
23:41
Right?
23:41
And because I wasn't luckily, knock on wood, that I hadn't been.
23:44
And he said, absolutely.
23:46
That's when the like you said, the body whispers at you to say, that thing you used to
23:51
do when you were, like, 30, can't do this anymore.
23:54
And then you have to start to kind of make those incremental kind of changes so that you
24:00
kind of look at that trajectory between 50 to 70 or 50 to 80 because those are the building
24:06
blocks, things that we used to be able to eat the pizza and do the thing and whatever.
24:11
We can't do that as much anymore.
24:12
And then you my thinking is my value is that I wanna be able to run around with my
24:18
grandchildren.
24:18
Yeah.
24:19
Yeah.
24:19
You know?
24:20
And I joke around with my son and say, all six of them.
24:22
He goes, ma.
24:23
I'm like, no.
24:24
Seriously.
24:24
All six.
24:25
He goes, oh, jeez.
24:26
But he laughed because he knows I'm funny.
24:28
But truly, it's those things that becomes the building block to your point, Elizabeth.
24:33
Because it's like, what am I do if I say I wanna do that in ten years Yeah.
24:37
And I'm not getting off the couch or not being able to kinda leave the home because I'm
24:42
drained emotionally or physically on the weekend, and in ten years, I'm not gonna be any
24:46
any better for Oh,
24:48
absolutely.
24:48
I think as we think about midlife and beyond, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right?
24:53
And it's delayed gratification too.
24:57
We talk about even sort of like taking care of your body, our metabolism's different.
25:01
So if you want to change like your weight or your shape, it's gonna take a little longer
25:07
than it did at 25.
25:08
If you want to change your sleep patterns, it's definitely gonna take a little longer than it
25:13
did at 25.
25:15
So those circadian rhythms are a little different now.
25:18
So I do, I think that those are pieces that we really wanna think about.
25:22
I love that you said, you wanna be able to run around.
25:25
In one of my previous lives, I actually have a two hundred hour yoga instructor training that
25:30
I've done a certificate.
25:31
And the thing that I love to talk about in terms of our physical health is one of the
25:35
things that we can gain at any point in our life is flexibility.
25:38
Like you might not be able to build muscle mass, or you might not be able to hold your
25:41
breath in the same way that you did when you're in your twenties, but you can actually engage
25:46
and gain flexibility at any stage of your life.
25:49
And so one of the things that I do every day, at least twice a day, is get on the floor.
25:54
And then I get up off the floor, right?
25:56
This is something I want to be able to do when I'm 85 years old.
25:59
So I'm doing it now so that I can continue to do it every day.
26:03
And so I think you do, you have to figure out what are the things that you value, even if
26:07
they're the small things like getting up and down off the floor or being able to run around
26:11
with the grandkids, all six of them, maybe there'll be eight, I don't know.
26:16
I probably have to have another child if that's not happening.
26:20
I think that those are things that we have to figure out in terms of values.
26:23
Another value could be, you spent a long time in your life, in your earlier life and midlife
26:28
maybe being conforming a lot, and that's not working for you anymore.
26:32
And so you don't want to conform.
26:33
You want to live life on your own terms and be a little less conformist.
26:38
What does that look like for you?
26:40
And go for it.
26:41
And be mindful of the fact that if you are less conforming, if you do things that are out of
26:45
the norm for your circle, your close relationships and things like that, that's
26:49
gonna be uncomfortable for the people around you.
26:51
So how do you navigate that?
26:52
Not just how you're changing and evolving, but how other people react to your changes and your
26:57
evolution.
26:58
And that systemically can be challenging in midlife.
27:01
It's challenging for anybody, but in midlife in particular, people are used to the patterns
27:05
that you've engaged in.
27:07
And then if you choose to change in certain ways, that can be really startling for folks.
27:12
And so being mindful of not only your own sort of internal functioning, but also being very
27:18
mindful that the people around you are gonna have feelings about it.
27:20
And how do you navigate that?
27:22
Doesn't mean you don't have to change, but you do wanna be mindful of those social
27:26
relationships and those more intimate relationships.
27:28
Absolutely.
27:29
It's an education, right?
27:30
Because if you've always been a certain way, you know, those roles that you've played and if
27:35
you haven't really dropped down into yourself to shift and now you're making all these
27:40
drastic, they're gonna be like, oh, what's happening over here?
27:42
People are gonna run for the hills.
27:44
Yeah.
27:44
I'm like, who's lost her marbles kind of.
27:46
Yeah.
27:47
Yeah.
27:47
It's it's those radical things like, I quit my job and I'm gonna go become X, whatever, a
27:53
rockstar, I don't know.
27:54
But that's alarming, it is alarming.
27:57
And usually when people are communicating that, it's because it's coming from a place of love.
28:00
The people that love you want you to be safe, they want you to be taken care of and that sort
28:05
of thing.
28:05
So typically, it comes from a place of love, but sometimes it doesn't always sound like
28:10
that.
28:11
Yeah.
28:11
And they're because they have to negotiate what their relationship's gonna be like with the
28:15
evolved version of you.
28:16
Yeah.
28:16
What is your biggest hope that women can learn about what we're finding out about research in
28:24
in midlife?
28:26
What is if you had if you I'm gonna ask you.
28:28
I'm gonna I'm gonna do what I know if you got up and a miracle happened Oh, and yes.
28:34
People are getting it.
28:35
What would they what what how will things be changed about women in in in midlife?
28:40
First off, that every person is unique and different.
28:44
And so while we use research to kinda give folks a notion of what's gonna happen, kind of
28:50
that middle of the bell curve experience, the middle of the bell curve experience isn't
28:54
necessarily your experience.
28:56
So be empowered to listen to your body, to listen to your own experiences, and be true to
29:02
those because no one else is gonna live in this body and live in this head that you have.
29:06
And so to really be true to that, to really ascertain and figure out what are my values,
29:12
what are my beliefs around those things and what are the boundaries that I need to create
29:16
so that I can live this life in this body and in this mind?
29:20
And to be thoughtful about it, to listen to that and move forward with confidence because
29:26
that is refinement.
29:27
It's really looking at who am I when all the other noise is silent and I truly listen
29:32
internally to those inner beliefs and values, like what's true for me and how can I move
29:39
forward in my own truth to be the most refined version of who I am as a woman, and that's
29:44
gonna carry me forward into who I am now and into the future and whatever changes may come?
29:52
That's beautiful.
29:53
I like it.
29:54
I like it.
29:55
I hope everybody's really kind of starting to think of that picture if you happen to be in
29:59
that demographic.
30:00
And one last question.
30:02
We've had such a great columnist, and I know you and I, because we're they used to call me
30:07
chatterbox, so I'm gonna assume you're probably a bit of a chatterbox when you were small too.
30:11
Probably why we picked the feels we did.
30:13
Probably.
30:14
For employers that are out there dealing with middle aged women, what are some of the things
30:20
that they need to be a bit more conscious of?
30:22
I've just recently went to a HR conference here in Toronto and they have added menopause as a
30:28
benefit.
30:29
There's actual a benefit that they've been adding, which I was like blown away when I
30:34
found out.
30:34
Wow, okay.
30:35
I want to come to that conference and hear more about that.
30:38
I am very Yeah, deep
30:40
an HR conference back in January and they were talking about benefits and meeting the
30:44
demographic where they are.
30:45
So I was like so wow, blown away that we're listening.
30:49
But for employers or leaders out there that are leading women that are in this stage, what are
30:54
some of the things that they need to consider as we kind of close off?
30:58
I think one of the things that employers Well, there are many things.
31:02
Again, if I could get my magic wand out and say to be enlightened employers.
31:05
I think menopause and being mindful of what that looks like for women and the biological
31:10
changes that are occurring, I think that's a wonderful start because what we are learning,
31:15
you've got some really great researchers in Canada.
31:17
Jen Guenter comes to mind.
31:18
She's a wonderful proponent of understanding women's health issues specifically, but
31:24
understanding that what menopause looks like is more than the end of menses.
31:29
Like it is so systemic, it's got so many health implications and what that means just to simply
31:34
have a baseline or to admit that you just don't know what all it means and investigate and ask
31:39
questions appropriately guided by HR, but be able to do that well.
31:44
Also, would dovetail that with understanding that for women in particular, there is an
31:50
emotional load that comes with midlife.
31:53
And again, it's because of that sandwich generation piece of, if you are raising young
31:58
people, if you are caregiving, whether they be your biological children or other younger folks
32:02
in your life, that is an additional emotional burden along with older people in your life.
32:08
They could be parents or they could be older generation folks who are in your life
32:12
biologically or not biologically.
32:15
Those are pieces that we have to think of.
32:17
The gem of being in midlife in a corporation particularly is oftentimes what our leaders
32:22
will do is say, you've been here long enough that you've got street credit, you understand,
32:26
and so can you train up the folks that are coming in that are newer?
32:30
And then can you also fill in the gaps with our older folks who are in the workforce and
32:35
retiring?
32:36
So basically what we were doing is we're recreating that family dynamic that's happening
32:41
outside of work, inside of work.
32:43
And I think if employers could be more mindful of not only that biological piece, the social
32:48
emotional piece that's happening outside of work, but then also that social emotional piece
32:52
that's actually happening inside of work, it's a huge emotional burden.
32:56
And so asking questions, being educated about that and having enough of a relationship with
33:01
the people that you're working with to know what's going on so that you can calibrate
33:05
what's possible and feasible at work, I think would be such a huge leap.
33:11
Yeah.
33:11
Because you have so many more women in the workforce at senior levels too that are playing
33:17
pivotal roles, and they're doing it.
33:19
Yes.
33:19
But to your point, what's the emotional overload on them systemically either at home or
33:25
at work?
33:25
Like, we talk about work life balance, even more so that lens needs to be kept in mind
33:31
because you are valuable because you have all this knowledge, but what are some of the
33:36
limitations at this particular stage so that you can actually bring the positives out of
33:42
this individual versus burning them out even that much more.
33:46
And I guess my last pitch would be oftentimes when managers and leaders are looking at that
33:51
at the executive level and beyond, they tend to ask women those questions more than they ask
33:55
their male counterparts.
33:56
So if these questions or these needs and gaps are going be filled in, that we're equitable in
34:02
terms of we're asking men and women to do that, not just women to fill in emotional burdens for
34:06
basically non promotable work.
34:08
Yeah.
34:09
Absolutely.
34:10
Make it look at it across the board and recognize the people that probably always
34:15
potentially also step up as well, which women sometimes do more often.
34:19
Not that I'm picking on the male counterparts because I'm not, but just to kinda look at
34:24
strategically who is necessary and can perform regardless of, you know, the sex of the
34:32
individual and making the best decision for the overall team.
34:35
Elizabeth, this has been amazing.
34:37
Thank you so much for taking your time out of your busy schedule to be here with us today.
34:43
So what I'd like you to do is to tell everybody where they can get ahold of the book and where
34:48
they can get ahold of you if they would like to connect.
34:51
Oh, absolutely.
34:52
Thank you so much, Roxanne, for this opportunity.
34:55
And this was fun.
34:55
Oh my gosh.
34:56
You're like my third podcast in life.
34:58
And I have to say you might be my most fun podcast
35:01
so far.
35:02
Thank you.
35:02
Thank you.
35:03
Love to hear the feedback.
35:05
But you can find my website.
35:07
It is wwww.drerobrien, so doctor.e.o'brien.com.
35:16
And on that website, you can click a contact me and I have a newsletter that I send out once a
35:21
month.
35:21
I'm not gonna crowd your inbox, but you can definitely fill out that contact form and click
35:26
the little box that says, get the newsletter, get updates, and I'll send you information.
35:30
And then on that main page, you're going to find some links to Bloomsbury, who is my
35:34
publisher, and you can order there.
35:37
You can order off of Amazon or Barnes and Noble, but I would love to have folks who are
35:41
curious, join the community, please join the newsletter to learn more, and hopefully you'll
35:46
find some nuggets that can really help you out, and thank you.
35:50
Thank you for all this wisdom.
35:52
What am I taking away?
35:53
I'm taking away window of tolerance at our stage in age.
35:58
A window of tolerance is just the kind of that space where that we can drop down to.
36:02
And I'm gonna say that it gets stifled that much more when midlife.
36:07
And I I can think of myself and all the changes that I've had to make in the last year to be
36:14
able to take care of myself.
36:15
And have they been tough?
36:16
Absolutely.
36:17
Do do at times, I'm like the two year old that doesn't wanna listen.
36:21
And then like I said to you earlier, I pay, and then I think I'm not gonna do that again.
36:25
And then I do it again.
36:26
And then I start to learn the lesson at some point.
36:28
So to just to listen to your body, to your thoughts, to your feelings relationally, how is
36:35
that impacting others?
36:37
And what is it that you want to put in place?
36:39
Not big, huge steps that you're gonna trip and not wanna do it again, but incremental small
36:44
steps that are in alignment, Elizabeth said, with what you value, how you see it, what will
36:50
it be like, who will be around as you go into the next stage of your life.
36:56
Again, Elizabeth, this has been super fun.
36:58
Two clinicians just playing in the sandbox, which is amazing.
37:02
And for everybody, what am I up to with the ROR book that was launched last year?
37:06
I'm running my first life course and coaching.
37:09
The first cohort is almost filled, and and there's gonna be iterations happening
37:13
throughout the year and into next year.
37:15
So if you're interested, just reach out to me.
37:17
I can share more information about the course.
37:20
If you're a burnt out leader, you wanna be resilient, and you wanna impact and in in
37:25
innovate and bring the best out of your team, please reach out.
37:28
Again, Elizabeth, thank you.
37:29
And for everyone, thanks again, and we'll chat with you again next week.
37:33
Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
37:38
healthy change.
37:40
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
37:44
To work with Roxanne, visit roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
37:50
We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.