Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / Identity Shifts & Secondary Loss: Making Space for Every Part of Your Grief 2|05

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Identity Shifts & Secondary Loss: Making Space for Every Part of Your Grief 2|05 · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris -Towner Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: Okay, there we are, let's dive in. So we talk about quiet losses on this show, and today we're talking about another way of looking at estrangement grief, secondary loss and holding ambiguous loss. But before we begin, let's have a little chat. Cassandra, LMHC: So I don't know about your house, but we've been getting infected with some sort of plague around these parts. my daughter woke up the other day with like a severe sore throat and I keep hearing about more and more people who are getting sick and how Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: this is a thing that's happening right now. And I think part of it is like the fall pollen, but I think part of it is also like there's some sort of weird bug going around. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I think we passed the stage here in my house as well where we're like, is that allergies or are you getting sick? And it's like, no, we're getting sick. I have two out of three home. and it's funny because my my middle one, she's home today, and she was like, Why don't you take him to the doctor? You take me so fast to the doctor. Yeah. And it Cassandra, LMHC: That's I love everything about that. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. And I think I t I was like it made me think. I'm like, why do I take her so quickly? And I think that she is one that's more sensitive to symptoms. So I'm I think that they're bigger or more important and I'm like, let me go, find out. But then the little one, he's still making jokes, he's laughing and I'm like, he's okay. I just give him a lot of liquids and whatever and rest. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: so it I just It made me think about how each of them are so different and how I do treat them accordingly. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm also wondering if your middle one maybe gets sick less than the little one does. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I can see that too. I can see that Cassandra, LMHC: So Daiana, LMHC: too. The last time I took her in, she did have the flu and I had no idea. Cassandra, LMHC: Girl, I had the flu last year. It is no fun. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: It is no fun whatsoever. So I feel I feel for her in my soul. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I remember that. And I went to pick up some prescriptions yesterday. And they're like, Do you want a free flu shot? And I'm just like, not today. I I I used to ha I used to be required to get them when I worked at the hospital. I never Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I never had a flu shot before I was required to have one. And it's one of those things. It's like sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And it's kind of hard to time because you don't want to be sick. already Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: and sometimes it's just inevitable. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah, I've never really gotten flu shots. I've gotten like all sorts of other shots, but I don't think I've ever really gotten a flu shot. My my one concern about it is that like it's gonna make me sick for a couple of days and Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: and I don't really have time for that. I ain't got time for that. Like it just I'm like Daiana, LMHC: Time for that. I know. I got time for that. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: which reminds me yesterday I I had to take Robyn to a dentist appointment, my middle daughter, and she was all aggravated that I didn't tell her about it ahead of time because she's thirteen and I guess between the ages Daiana, LMHC: Got things to do. Cassandra, LMHC: of 12 and 14, it's common knowledge that I don't know anything. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm doing all the things in the world to cause my preteen and teenagers discomfort just by existing. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: So this is something I'm working on coming to terms with is that I just for these next three years, I guess that's the life I'm living. but we went to the dentist and I took her back to school and then I had my own therapy appointment yesterday. And it's really, really funny to me because sometimes I'll go in and like I'll have a whole lot to say and I'll sit on her couch and I will cry and cry and cry, and then she'll inevitably be like, Are you okay? Are you safe with yourself? And like I've had to have this conversation with her more than once. I'm like, I'm not going to harm myself. I just only get to cry here. Honestly. And it's kinda funny to me that like that's what it takes is for me to be on the other side of the couch, for me to be able to like process pretty much anything. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, it's so interesting because I had just mentioned that I wanted to to share something about my own therapy. And you're like, I went to therapy yesterday too. And I do believe that all therapists should go to therapy. And it doesn't mean that you don't go through seasons that you might go once a month. If you're seeing clients, you have something to process and talk about, if even if it's not, you know, something going on in your own life. And I also know that, That grief, my god, I'm blanking out. vicarious grief. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I also know that vicarious grief is so sneaky, and you might be experiencing that grief from listening to people's stories and not even know how it's affecting you until you start sharing it with a person that you are that you can share it with, which is your therapist, because it's confidential. That's what Hard, right? Like we can't just share stories. if we're in in supervision and peer supervision, we can as well. Sometimes that's hard to schedule as well. So that's Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: really the only time. And you don't notice it until you talk about it most of the time. But I had this experience yesterday where I'll preface it that I like being the the client. I enjoy being the client. Like you said, it's like the only time that we get poured into that is just all about us and that we do get the moment to cry and to feel and to not and not to be judged, right? Like I think we we judge ourselves as therapists a lot that we should handle things better and things like that. but I had this experience yesterday and it made me think of my own my clients, any client I've ever had, and just being on this side in general, where when it comes to the grief I'm experiencing, I'm like, Well, it is what it is. I'm experiencing it. Like I am not to the point where talking about memories about my dad makes me feel better. And there are many things that I'm going through now that I know eventually I will. Like eventually I'm going to feel happy and about sharing stories about him. Or I'm going to feel comfort in in that. And right now I'm like, I don't I just makes me sad and cry. so I had and I told her this. And I and I also wanna say if you're in therapy, it is really good to tell your therapist, I don't know if this is gonna work for me. I don't know why I'm here. it is what it is. And I had one of those moments, and I think I I know to say that because that is the therapy. Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Like the last two sessions, I was just like, I'm just gonna sit there and I'm just gonna cry. And it's kind of annoying. Like I it's like I don't want to. I already feel tired and drained. And I was telling her that I feel like this is just a more emotionally taxing, which is true. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Right. But it also doesn't mean that it is not helpful. The irony is that she's like, I think you should come every week. And she's like, Can you come twice this week? And I'm like, I don't think my I can, like schedule-wise. But so it was it was interesting to be on that side and also to feel the ambivalence that you we all feel. I s often ask our guests. in our pre interview, hey, did you go to therapy for this? And and Cassandra, tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like most of them have said no, or like quite a few have said no. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: A few have said no. A few actually what we hear kind of frequently is that they tried it, they did like one or two sessions, but then they found something that worked for them. because Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that's something I tell my clients too. Like if this isn't a good fit for you, that's okay. Like I'm not gonna take it personally. I I'm not gonna like sit here and cry about you thinking that this doesn't work for you. It's more important for me. To have you find what works for you. And so some of our clients have found, like or not our clients, some of our guests have found that life coaches in different one variation or another has worked better for them. Some of them have found that leaning into faith has worked better for them. Some of them have found Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: that relying on their social support has worked better for them. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: it's about finding what works for you. Daiana, LMHC: And I wholeheartedly agree with that. I know that there was a lot less of mental health issues. And I was actually looking into Dominican Republic because my parents are from there and looking at mental health there. And I was so surprised at how low it was. I don't know about right right now, but how low it's been in the past. and it was mainly due to faith. and community. Like we would not need to be therapists or need therapists if we lived more organically in the sense that how we should live together, where you can depend on your neighbor, where you can when your kids are playing outside, you know somebody's got their eye on them, just like you help out your neighbors. When we live with more support, we have less mental health issues. And and studies do show that when you cre when you believe in a higher power, that something is greater Than you, that you don't have control over everything, that you do have support from God or the universe that it does support your mental health. So it makes sense. And I do agree that therapy is not the end all be all. There are different things. It's just I and not only about our guests, but some people find it easier at the moment. To focus on what's next, what's this goal, and how can I work through my mindset to get to my goal? and sometimes after a person goes through life coaching or business coaching or different types of coaching that gets them through a hurdle, when things settle down, they're like, then they feel that linger. And then they may be ready for therapy. And I was We did a pre interview last week and we were talking about this. And it does is like it is unfortunate when people meet therapists that are not a good match because it that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that it kind of sucks that you have to keep going and find the right match, whether it's personality, comfort, but also modalities. Sometimes doing parts work is not your thing. And you don't like the way that feels and it doesn't mean that you're resisting. It means that that's not how you process or how you understand concepts. Right. So Cassandra, LMHC: I'm also just thinking, like, I kind of want to loop back to like what you were saying earlier about like community and faith can have a huge impact on our our personal mental health. But I also want to make sure that we are mindful that that's not the be-all and end all for some people. there are a lot of people who have very strong faith and very strong community that still struggle with mental health. Daiana, LMHC: Of course yes. Cassandra, LMHC: And and their their journey is valid and sometimes when you have such a strong faith in such a strong community, it can be a little bit more difficult to reach out and ask for help because you're told that you have these things and that for those reasons you should be fine. And so that builds a little bit of shame on top of that too. So there's a lot of different parts Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: to that as well. So I agree that I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think what you're to mm. So go ahead. Cassandra, LMHC: I agree that the that those having those supports make a large difference and at the same time can sometimes hinder people's willingness to reach out and ask for help. Daiana, LMHC: Hundred percent. I think that what you're talking about is like in modern times. I I should have been clear that this was like before internet, before T V, like we you know, maybe Cassandra, LMHC: Ha ha Daiana, LMHC: just radio. It was a completely different, much simpler time. I think that you're a hundred percent right that it doesn't apply the in the same way, when Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: when we it Life is just so complex now. We have so many layers or things, you know, whether it's the we've talked about in the past, like social media, a lot of information, the pace of our life, how we are spread apart now, like more our day-to-day living, even when you have community. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: So yeah, there there are there are layers. There's a lot of the narrative of like be you know, what am I complaining about? Like I have my people, I I you know, I have my faith. And then faith in itself could be really complex. Actually, I think our next well, our next interview when we're gonna talk about it today, with Andy talks about faith and how he had to make a shift and find his own way. I don't know if you noticed in the interview, but he didn't j he he didn't leave his faith. He just felt like this specific community and what happened there and how it went down was not for him. And he didn't con you know, he he made it clear that it's not his faith changes that this community Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: may not have been the right fit or felt right. So it's kind of the same with therapy. It might not be the right fit right now. It might not be the right therapist or modality So it just and I love that you said that too because I think that on the internet on social media a lot of people feel unseen because it's said as like a blanketed statement. And that's a Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: good thing to note where to keep in mind that these statements are not for everybody. It doesn't it can't we can't ever encompass everybody's, you know, situation. Cassandra, LMHC: However, the internet does keep promising me that if I press this button and pay this money, they'll do a sketch of my soulmate. So Daiana, LMHC: wow. Cassandra, LMHC: that that's gotta be true, right? Like that's gotta be something that is legitimate just like all the other things that pop up. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm hmm. Girl, I'm not even gonna get i into that 'cause I was like annoyed this past week about Cassandra, LMHC: Ha ha ha Daiana, LMHC: ads that are for products that are not either not real or are mass producing generic and take forever for you to get it. So it's like kind of it's not a l lie, but it's not the full truth either. But yeah, so yeah, I just I think that it's talking just about you know, where we are in life. I think I did mention it's just like I I'm I was actually happy that it took about six weeks or whatever how many weeks we are into the school for the kids to get sick. It wasn't like day two, 'cause sometimes that happens. It's like school Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: just started yesterday and you're sick. Cassandra, LMHC: And then that puts a damper on the whole Daiana, LMHC: And then a bad experience. Cassandra, LMHC: week. Daiana, LMHC: yeah. Sometimes a whole month. Cassandra, LMHC: Ha ha ha. Daiana, LMHC: So next week we're we're going to share this episode with an incredible guest. His name is Andy Elwood, and he's gonna join us to share his story. But today, what we're gonna do is we're gonna lay down the groundwork so that we can understand the exact types of grief that so many of us experience when everything falls apart. And I would love to take this moment to remind you to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode. It means the world to us. Cassandra, LMHC: So I am very excited to talk about this episode because the interview was just phenomenal. I think there were more than one point during the there was more than one point during the interview that I had goosebumps. And his story just resonated so deeply within me. So in order to get us ready for that today, we're gonna define we are gonna be defining the specific frameworks of grief that happen when life just piles on. when Andy does join us next week, you'll hear how he describes his house of cards and how it fell. But today we want to give you the clinical language for what that actually is. we're gonna be looking at cumulative grief, which is something that we've talked about. identity loss, which is something that we've explored quite a lot, but also ecosystem estrangement, which is a little bit new. We haven't really touched on that one too much. We we did some family estrangement, which was very similar to ecosystem estrangement, but it's kinda got a slight twist to it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's that word in itself is something that's being researched in deeper because Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: there is a lot of room for for research in within estrangement in itself and and how that that ripple happens. if you look at It was Lee's episode, right? We talked about family estrangement and season one. If you go you go back to that, you will see this ecosystem grief and this relationship estrangement. And the way we defined it, define it is that it's a profound isolation that occurs when you outgrow your insular community, right? That that community you were born into. or change your core beliefs. So you're you're changing your bel your core from your family of origin or your community of origin. And we preview how Andy experienced a first death of his identity, which I absolutely love how he explained and how he conceptualized his own experience because he called it a first death of his identity. Right. later on we're gonna mention another word that he that he used to to define his experience. And this this first death of his identity was when his lifelong religious circle Cassandra, LMHC: They almost alienated him, right? Daiana, LMHC: Think is it yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so we're going to see how Andy experiences first death of his identity when his lifelong religious circle alienated him from choosing his authentic path. Cassandra, LMHC: And the part of the story honestly resonated with me pretty strongly. I don't know how much you and I have actually talked about this, but I was raised in a A faith that I would consider to be rather stringent and demanding of certain behaviors and certain beliefs and certain ideas and you were required to hold the same ideas and faith and belief that everyone else did. And I can remember even as like a little girl, it just never made sense to me. It just never I never understood why one person had to be right and someone else had to be wrong. It just it just never made sense to me. So hearing Andy's story of how life changed for him when he decided to be who he wanted to be, I had a feeling about that. I had a resonation with that. I'm I'm grateful and fortunate that it didn't result in my estrangement from my family, but there was quite a bit of push and pull during the time when I've been trying to during that time especially when I was trying to find my own path and find my own way. And what has led us to this today is just both sides are accepting of how the other one lives their lives. And we don't really talk about it. And yeah. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Mm-hmm. It's one of those things, yeah. Sometimes though people say like don't talk about religion or politics kind of thing. you know, sometimes it does keep the peace. Cassandra, LMHC: Does and I I think there was a little bit of that in Andy's story as well. Like he and his siblings all have found a way to have their lives but still function together. And I thought that was really beautiful because not everyone's story ends up that way. Daiana, LMHC: Mm mm. No, it doesn't. And you know, when you're talking about Questioning whether it's your faith or what you know, maybe things that you are born into, customs and things like that. It's only natural and and it's so common that we just keep it to ourselves. I think the best case scenario is that a person, a child is is feels comfortable sharing, and that their experience is not shunned or put down or shamed in any way, or invalidated in a way to say to kind of affirm something that doesn't feel good. It's very confusing to a kid or an adolescent, even an adult. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, no, I didn't know that part of your story. So thank you for sharing that. Cassandra, LMHC: We can talk more about it later. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. I love to. I think, you know, I personally it does make me sad when there are groups that take advantage of people, like with cults and or or faiths that Don't let that person grow or or make them, you know, that makes them feel like they're just inherently bad or wrong. I know that I've worked with a lot of people who come with like a church herd or have been hurt by their churches or parishes or temples or wh whatever it may be. And it's doesn't mean that their faith is inherently wrong. It's just we're people, we're human, and they're and you know, that's why I appreciated that Andy was able to say, like, this doesn't have to do with my faith with God. It's just that it's this experience with these people that did not did not feel right and and was harmful or whatever and he he will tell his story with that. Cassandra, LMHC: 'Cause I've also met people who like are very joyful and giving and loving and want Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: to share their joy and their love with others. Like and that's something that I find absolutely beautiful about faith is there are sometimes these moments of just pure joy and acceptance Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: and love and It's it's pr it's it's just something that's really interesting to behold. Daiana, LMHC: And that's why I like hearing people's stories because we can't and all of these themes and all of these terms we can't just generalize it. We all have Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: our our own path and and it's I'm always careful with talking about whether it's generational beliefs or faith in all a negative way because it's all a part of our story. And the narrative that we create around it affects who we who we're becoming and who we are. So we just Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: have to be mindful of that too. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: But other thing that we were we had talked quite a bit about with Andy was like the idea of cumulative grief or even secondary loss. Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: when you almost have like a grief overload and what happens to your body and your brain when like these primary losses like divorce and loss of your job or whatever huge loss is going on in your life at that time, it it almost triggers like a domino kind of effect of secondary losses. So there's Just one thing after another after another after another that happen all at the same time. sometimes it happens that way, sometimes it doesn't. But with Andy, we discussed the intense, like symbolic loss of mourning the life you thought you were supposed to have. And it's shocking how many different times one person can have that loss. Daiana, LMHC: Right. Yeah, I was just thinking about that. Cause it's like you know, Andy shares that hi hi him and his wife at the time experienced a miscarriage. And when that happens, it's it's so it's devastating and you had that feeling of being a parent and and you were a parent for all intents and purposes, and you take on that identity. For it to be gone. It's like all of those dreams, right? And then for him and his experience, his domino effect was a sudden divorce and then losing a home and then a career collapse. So these are it was when he says house of cards, I'm like, I just feel like it was like house of like of of pebbles and stones. Like it was just all of these major big parts of your life. of your identity. That's why I think his story is so good when it comes to really depicting identity because each one of these, come with such a load of who we are. And in in general, like when we have a divorce, we're like, well, what friends are we gonna lose? Right? Who gets who in the divorce? So you know, friendships change, dynamics change. So it's even within these he could you could even now branch out to other parts. Right, like your finances, career, all of the work you put into these things and you just feel like a total failure. Cassandra, LMHC: just thinking like even one of those things, just one of those things would be enough to turn my world upside down. And then to have it Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: just kind of snowball is Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. They're heavy hitters. Like his his testimony and his story is so pr impactful in many ways, but it's just that they were all major losses. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And one right after the other. Daiana, LMHC: And we talk about here, mm-hmm. We talk about here that no losses is necessarily you know, more important than another, but these are things that impact your lifestyle, your your who you are, how you live your life, how you see yourself. You know. So Guys, like really listen to this episode. I was I was holding back tears through many parts of it and I was like, Yes, I got to the end. And then he goes and hits us with his living loss that it was different than the one he thought he was gonna share. And it was exactly what I needed to hear. So I'm going to re-listen to that part to the whole thing all over again because I know It's one of those things where it's like when you watch a good movie and you see it again, you hear you see something different, you hear something different. So I'll be curious to know what I get out of it the second time Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: around. Cassandra, LMHC: Well one of the the points that he brought up that I thought was really poignant and you and I discussed it quite a bit was was this idea of like what he called the Oreo life. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And it's where you have like really awesome things on this end and then really life altering and sometimes devastating things on this end and how both things are true at the same time. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And then I'm guessing the sweet part is in the middle, right? Like that sweet cream filly, like that it's that there's also good Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: in there as well. Cassandra, LMHC: My therapist, well, one of my therapists, we have two. We have a couples counselor and a I have my own individual counselor. she calls it two truths, like where two things are true at the same time, and then trying to resonate those two things together. and then, like you said, there's like the sweet cream in the middle, like Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: where there's something that's good, something that's positive. But we have these two almost like bookends of completely opposite varieties. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, and again he goes into his story more, but he was experiencing becoming a new parent, something that he dreamed of for so long. And alongside of that was the loss of a parent. And at this time, there's some time in between, but when you're you have the living loss of a parent fading with through Alzheimer's. and then eventually passing away. It's like how do you hold those two, again, huge moments and huge feelings of joy and profound sorrow. Cassandra, LMHC: I think it's those moments that give you the opportunity to really look at the identity that you hold and how it resonates Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: with you in that moment. There's multiple opportunities throughout life for your identity to shift and for these Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: things to change, but that even of itself, making peace with who you are versus who you thought you were, those all come with loss. But a lot of joy as well. Which is where that that Oreo life comes in, which I really Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: like that term. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I love it too. that is something, a concept that I use a lot within my work is that dialectic. one of the the the modalities I use is dialectical behavioral therapy DBT. And in that dialectic, it talks about these seemingly opposite two truths, as you were saying, that exist and they're both valid. And what it does is shifts our brain to either or like I have to and we all fall into this all the time. It's like I can't be happy while grieving, right? I get like, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: you know, I'm supposed to be sad all the time because this is how I I feel. And you feel like you can't laugh or you can't do joyful things, right? So what this dialectic does is it helps you shift from both and and that and thinking is like I can and I am feeling both. Cassandra, LMHC: Which can be really difficult to to rectify within ourselves. And it cause Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: a lot of can typically cause a lot of dissonance. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that cognitive dissonance is be that that space in between what you believe and what's actually happening. And sometimes it doesn't match. Cassandra, LMHC: And sometimes that gets real weird. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm speaking from personal experience. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm I'm living it now and I know we you and I obviously are friends and talk about a lot It's been very difficult. I'm in it, it again understanding it and almost wishing that knowing all of these things. And I know it's a very human experience that knowing something will change how you feel and how you experience it. And out of the seven days a week I have about maybe two and a half days where I have some energy, when I'm doing the podcast and working is something that I that I look forward to and it makes me feel like me. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Right. I was thinking, I'm like, why do I feel so different when I record with you or when I'm with my clients? Because it anchors me to that part of me that that has not inherently changed because of the the loss of my dad when every other part of me has. I was listening to Kelly Osborne interview recently, and I don't even know the gentleman that she interviewed with, but she talked about how that version of herself is dead, like whoever she was before has passed. We've heard it here on the podcast with Melissa in a different way. Melissa is so she talked about how. being in an abusive relationship, a part of her died and can never come back. Right. And and this is why I I love everything about this podcast is that you can you can see how a living loss is real because it takes away it takes parts of you just like the grief that we acknowledge as as real grief and loss of Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: of a person. And I have been listening to and and I'm not consciously like looking for these things. I think of course the algorithm knows what everything about me. So it shows me different clips and different podcasts. and I've been interested to hear what other people are talking about. And I feel that I know that we may not be the only one talking about this, but I know that coming from the angle of acknowledging what loss encompasses, including your identity, friendships, your whole ecosystem, how it truly shows up in the same way as the grief that we all know. Something that she said too is that she that Kelly Osborne said is that she lost a lot of friends because people don't like sad. And I was like, man, that is so well said. Like, yeah, we don't like sad. And when, you know, when Cassandra and I do pre-interviews or when Cassandra's answering emails, like she often has to remind people the purpose. Right. People are st are want to talk about grief in in a way that is kind of like the obvious way, which is very important, but to really tell your story about all that goes into it. It's a it's just different. It's a different way of thinking. But I know that we have a long way to go for us just to talk about grief and and death and loss. So that we do become more comfortable with it because w the we're all living with it in some way, shape or form, all the time. Cassandra, LMHC: I had someone ask me one day, like, how do we still have things to talk about? We've done twenty-four episodes, now more than twenty-four episodes at this point, but it was at the end of last season, and they asked me, like, how do you still have things to talk to people about? And I was like, We will never run out of things to talk about because there's always grief, there's always living loss, there's always a story. And everyone has their own. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. Well, I can't wait for everyone to hear this episode. It is truly amazing and just wait to hear his living loss lesson. Cause I I had to take a moment after that. So we're moving on to our favorite part of the show, Living Loss Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing the grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: So this week what we want to do is to leave you with some reflection questions that you can journal or just sit with them for a minute. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I'm interested to know, and it would be really cool if anyone felt like emailing us and telling us what their answer was. Have you ever had to step away from a community, belief system, or relationship in order to be true to yourself? Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: You know, I think about how liberating it must feel to be your authentic self, how liberating it does feel to be your authentic self. But we don't often talk about the intense grief that comes with losing the people that couldn't accept the new you. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And there's always that potential. There's always that that chance that that's gonna happen. Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. And the second question is think about a time when your own house of cards fell apart, when the dust settled, what pieces of your identity did you choose not to pick back up? Or the parts that you did choose to keep with you? That this concept of when everything falls apart, a way that has helped me to think about it in a way that supports me is that it's a moment that I can look at what's working and what's not been working. Like take an honest look. Everything fell apart anyway. Right? What are the things I want to take with me and what are the things that I need to leave behind? This this this loss of my dad, I don't I don't I know that I have never experienced anything like this. And if you've ever lost a parent, there's something that fundamentally changes you and it has forced me to to really pause and look at all of these things. And one of the things is is that I've had to let go of is trying to be that productive person that to check the boxes, to to really let go of that part of the my identity that doesn't serve me anymore. Because it doesn't just it just doesn't fit. Cassandra, LMHC: And to release those expectations. Because they don't do much for us other than fill us with shame and regret. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So the third question would be when have you had to hold profound joy and deep grief at the same exact time? It's that it's that Oreo life that that two truths, all of those things, whatever you want to call it, we sometimes will feel about guilty about being happy when we're grieving. But our bodies and our hearts are actually built to hold both at the same time. It just feels uncomfortable, like you're betraying something. But that doesn't make it true. Daiana, LMHC: I will be putting these in the show notes, these three questions for you to either journal, sit with these questions and or like Cassandra said, send us your responses. We would love to hear them. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: Thank you to our listeners to spending this for spending this time with us. And be sure to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if this conversation reminded you of someone who needs to hear that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we are not your therapists. And this does not replace professional mental health care. If you if you feel like you'd like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: We'll catch you next week on The Living Loss.