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Qantas and Alan Joyce – the CEO who can’t let go · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: There are not that many company CEOs whom the general
• 0:07
  S1: public knows by name, but Alan Joyce is definitely one
• 0:12
  S1: of them, in part because of how some customers and
• 0:15
  S1: former employees were treated by Qantas, the company he led.
• 0:21
  S1: I'm Samantha Salinger Morris, and you're listening to The Morning
• 0:24
  S1: Edition from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today,
• 0:28
  S1: senior reporter Chris Zappone on why Alan Joyce is now
• 0:32
  S1: telling his side of the story. Chris, welcome back to
• 0:39
  S1: the podcast.
• 0:39
  S2: Thanks, Sam. Great to be here.
• 0:41
  S1: Okay, so most of us, many of us haven't heard
• 0:43
  S1: from Alan Joyce, the former CEO of Qantas, in quite
• 0:47
  S1: a while. And now he's popped up again. Why did
• 0:49
  S1: you just interview him?
• 0:51
  S2: Well, so Alan Joyce, just to take us back, he
• 0:54
  S2: resigned from his role as the CEO of Qantas in 2023.
• 0:58
  S2: And when he did, it was a very difficult time
• 1:01
  S2: for Qantas. One of the conditions of his resignation was
• 1:04
  S2: that he was going to keep quiet for a while.
• 1:05
  S2: After he stood down to give the new CEO some
• 1:08
  S2: time to sort of, you know, find her footing and
• 1:10
  S2: right the ship. So that time has passed. And in
• 1:13
  S2: his time away, he has written a book and it's
• 1:16
  S2: his own story, his autobiography charting his rise to run
• 1:21
  S2: the company Qantas for 15 years. And he delves into
• 1:24
  S2: all of his most controversial and headline grabbing decisions that
• 1:29
  S2: he made.
• 1:30
  S1: Okay, so let's get into his take in just a
• 1:31
  S1: little bit. But first off, can you just remind listeners of,
• 1:34
  S1: I guess, the scandals really that took place during Alan
• 1:38
  S1: Joyce's tenure at Qantas? Because I think it's safe to
• 1:41
  S1: say he angered a lot of people. He experienced considerable
• 1:45
  S1: political and consumer backlash before, like you say, he left
• 1:48
  S1: the company in 2023. So what happened, Chris?
• 1:51
  S2: Well, it was a number of things when Covid hit,
• 1:55
  S2: or I should say, even before Covid hit, Alan Joyce
• 1:58
  S2: never shied away from a fight with another stakeholder, let's
• 2:02
  S2: say in the company, particularly the unions. So he had
• 2:05
  S2: had a long standing interest in reforming the industrial relations
• 2:11
  S2: at Qantas. And he appears that he saw that there
• 2:14
  S2: was a real opportunity when Covid came around. That was
• 2:16
  S2: a period where a lot of companies were standing, people down,
• 2:19
  S2: they were having to halt operations. And at that time
• 2:23
  S2: the decision was taken not directly by Joyce, but it
• 2:26
  S2: was happening on his watch to fire about 1800 ground
• 2:30
  S2: crew for Qantas. And this would. What this is going
• 2:33
  S2: to reduce the cost or the labor costs for the company.
• 2:36
  S2: So that happened. And that was sort of one of
• 2:38
  S2: the first major moves. That was a source of quite
• 2:41
  S2: a bit of outrage on the union side. And immediately
• 2:44
  S2: the Transport Workers Union filed a suit against this move.
• 2:48
  S2: But that was really just the beginning of of a
• 2:50
  S2: series of events. There were events like the so-called ghost
• 2:54
  S2: flight sales. So this is where Qantas was charged with
• 2:58
  S2: having sold something like 8000 tickets for flights that no
• 3:01
  S2: longer existed. There was also, if you recall, during Covid,
• 3:05
  S2: there were moments where people had booked flights but were
• 3:07
  S2: no longer able to fly, so they had flight credits
• 3:10
  S2: with airlines. This was a saga with Qantas where they
• 3:13
  S2: were sending out updates saying, your flight credit is going
• 3:16
  S2: to expire if you don't use it, and yet people
• 3:19
  S2: had no ability to use it. On top of that,
• 3:21
  S2: under Australian consumer law, they weren't actually supposed to be
• 3:24
  S2: flight credits. They were actually supposed to be told that
• 3:27
  S2: they were entitled to a refund. And then as people
• 3:29
  S2: got really upset and they were coming back into the airport,
• 3:32
  S2: Qantas was not really prepared for the crush of passengers
• 3:36
  S2: that were coming. Joyce would make comments like passengers themselves
• 3:40
  S2: weren't match fit for travel, which was just like an
• 3:43
  S2: incredibly insulting to the public that had waited and endured
• 3:47
  S2: all these months at home, paid for tickets that they
• 3:49
  S2: couldn't use, then had to pay more to to get
• 3:52
  S2: on these flights and then be told that they weren't
• 3:54
  S2: basically being good customers.
• 3:56
  S1: It's a lot. And then to pile on to it,
• 3:58
  S1: and this is very interesting timing considering his book comes
• 4:00
  S1: out today. You recently wrote about the more than 1800 workers,
• 4:04
  S1: like you mentioned before, who were dismissed by Qantas during Covid.
• 4:07
  S1: You know, their case went all the way to the
• 4:09
  S1: High Court, which then ruled in their favor, announcing that
• 4:12
  S1: they'd been illegally dismissed. So how are they faring?
• 4:15
  S2: Yes, it's been a very long and challenging process for
• 4:18
  S2: them because they have to be assessed for the economic
• 4:22
  S2: loss and then also the non-economic loss. So the economic
• 4:25
  S2: loss is how much work that they've missed since they
• 4:28
  S2: were fired, how long they worked for the company and
• 4:30
  S2: the like. The non-economic loss is sort of the pain
• 4:33
  S2: and suffering humiliation, but also, you know, medical psychological issues
• 4:38
  S2: relating to this sort of, you know, traumatic loss of
• 4:41
  S2: their employment. And this is very hard for a lot
• 4:44
  S2: of people also, because a lot of the people who
• 4:46
  S2: were laid off were, you know, 50s 60s, they were
• 4:49
  S2: close to retirement. So they're not really in a position
• 4:51
  S2: to find a new job. I talked to a labor
• 4:53
  S2: expert who was talking about the, the impact of these
• 4:56
  S2: sort of sudden layoffs, sudden loss of jobs. And it's
• 4:59
  S2: it's quite stressful because it's very hard to manage and
• 5:02
  S2: to foresee where you're going to, where you're going to
• 5:04
  S2: go next. And that uncertainty and that lingering uncertainty can
• 5:07
  S2: have a real impact on somebody's mental health.
• 5:10
  S1: Okay. Well, let's get into Alan Joyce then, and his book.
• 5:13
  S1: I mean, really, why should we care about his side
• 5:15
  S1: of the story? Now, I think, you know, many listeners
• 5:17
  S1: might be listening to this and thinking, well, listen, this
• 5:19
  S1: man collected a $3.8 million payout on leaving Qantas. Obviously,
• 5:24
  S1: a lot of people, both customers and former staff, they
• 5:28
  S1: have been left feeling, you know, not well treated by Qantas. Right.
• 5:31
  S1: So why do we care about Alan Joyce's story now Chris.
• 5:34
  S2: Well I mean he was the CEO of the biggest
• 5:37
  S2: airline in Australia for 15 years. He was a fixture
• 5:40
  S2: obviously in the in the you know, in the public sphere. Right.
• 5:43
  S2: He was somebody that was actually rather outspoken, not just
• 5:46
  S2: about issues within Qantas, but issues that were going on nationally.
• 5:50
  S2: So he was very involved in the marriage equality movement.
• 5:54
  S2: He's also outspoken on the indigenous voice to Parliament. And
• 5:57
  S2: So he is sort of a a notable news figure
• 6:01
  S2: in this way, never shy of a soundbite, never shy
• 6:03
  S2: of a controversy. But then I think the other element
• 6:06
  S2: that might be lost to some audience following this at
• 6:09
  S2: home is that, as strange as it may seem, he's
• 6:12
  S2: actually a highly respected aviation executive in international circles. So
• 6:17
  S2: even though he's got this kind of, you know, uh,
• 6:20
  S2: you know, checkered history domestically, there are people that do
• 6:23
  S2: listen to what he says about the state of aviation globally.
• 6:27
  S2: And he is and I guess we have to give
• 6:28
  S2: him credit. He is an executive that has both the strength,
• 6:32
  S2: like the analytical strength to understand what's going on in
• 6:36
  S2: his business. I mean, his background was math and physics,
• 6:39
  S2: I believe. So he's somebody who really understood the mathematical,
• 6:42
  S2: you know, implications of what was happening with costs and
• 6:45
  S2: distribution of passengers and how networks and flight planning and
• 6:49
  S2: the routes would work. He understands that, but he also
• 6:52
  S2: had a bit of a marketing flair. I mean, he
• 6:55
  S2: was the mind behind this project sunrise, which you hear
• 6:58
  S2: so much about this ambitious plan to fly direct nonstop
• 7:01
  S2: from Sydney to London or Sydney to New York. This
• 7:03
  S2: was his baby. So he had this ability to sort of,
• 7:06
  S2: you know, look over the horizon and imagine what people
• 7:08
  S2: might be interested in. He is a guy that knows
• 7:11
  S2: how to he knows how to, you know, turn heads
• 7:14
  S2: with some of his commentary.
• 7:15
  S1: I mean, it's quite interesting. I mean, I guess, has
• 7:17
  S1: he suffered any blowback, though, within the business community? Like
• 7:20
  S1: amongst any circles, is he like a bit of a
• 7:22
  S1: persona non grata or not at all?
• 7:23
  S2: Well, I think with the broader public he became sort
• 7:26
  S2: of emblematic of maybe, you know, you know, corporate overreach,
• 7:31
  S2: particularly at a time when people were feeling very raw
• 7:34
  S2: around Covid. I mean, people who were stuck in their
• 7:36
  S2: homes because of lockdown, suddenly paying much higher prices for everything.
• 7:41
  S2: First and foremost, for, for, you know, air tickets for
• 7:44
  S2: airfare and then for him, you know, he found himself
• 7:46
  S2: at certain points being accosted by members of the public.
• 7:49
  S2: I think his home. There were vandals at his home
• 7:52
  S2: when he wasn't there. So he became very much a
• 7:55
  S2: lightning rod. As far as the business community, that's a
• 7:57
  S2: little bit wait and see. I've seen some commentary about,
• 8:01
  S2: you know, how he was seen as quite successful. I mean,
• 8:04
  S2: I think his view about business is very much, you know,
• 8:07
  S2: it's about returning shareholder value above all. And now I
• 8:11
  S2: think we've moved into a different period where there has
• 8:13
  S2: to be a slightly more holistic view of what a
• 8:16
  S2: business does. And if there's so much sort of collateral
• 8:19
  S2: disruption created by this business that goes into the larger
• 8:22
  S2: picture of, you know, how we view an enterprise.
• 8:32
  S1: We'll be right back. Well, so to that end, I mean,
• 8:41
  S1: what does he say in this book? You know, what
• 8:43
  S1: does he say about his side of the story? Is
• 8:45
  S1: there a mea culpa with regards to, you know, the
• 8:47
  S1: decisions that were made during his tenure, which obviously landed
• 8:50
  S1: very badly? Does he justify what he did or what,
• 8:54
  S1: you know, those around him did? What does he say, Chris.
• 8:57
  S2: It's very interesting. He doesn't hold back from apologizing and
• 9:00
  S2: giving even blanket apologies for the excesses of the time
• 9:03
  S2: when he was CEO.
• 9:04
  S1: Like what, for instance, does he apologize for?
• 9:07
  S2: Oh, I'm in the comments about the customers being match fit.
• 9:09
  S2: I think he apologized within hours of that, but he
• 9:11
  S2: apologized again, as far as the firing of the workers,
• 9:14
  S2: he said, and I have to be clear here, this
• 9:16
  S2: wasn't his direct decision. So he says that they they
• 9:20
  S2: scrutinized the decision. They didn't approve the decision. But then
• 9:23
  S2: he says if they knew everything now that they did
• 9:25
  S2: at the time, and they knew that there would be
• 9:26
  S2: an effective vaccine that would allow aviation to resume, then
• 9:31
  S2: maybe they wouldn't have made the same decision. I don't know.
• 9:34
  S1: But wait, wait, can I just interrupt there for a second?
• 9:36
  S1: So is he saying that he wasn't the final sign
• 9:38
  S1: off on that decision? Is he saying that he is
• 9:40
  S1: not responsible for that decision?
• 9:42
  S2: Well, he says and this is the interesting thing. He
• 9:44
  S2: says he's responsible for everything that happened when he was CEO.
• 9:47
  S2: So it's sort of a blanket, you know, acceptance of responsibility.
• 9:50
  S2: But then and this is the very interesting thing about
• 9:52
  S2: this book, he'll narrow down onto these decisions. And as
• 9:55
  S2: soon as he explains after apologizing, he'll immediately turn around
• 9:59
  S2: and say, but here's all the things that you need
• 10:00
  S2: to know about why other people got it wrong as well,
• 10:04
  S2: why there's this incorrect perception about what the company was doing, say,
• 10:07
  S2: with the so-called ghost flights. This he attributes this to
• 10:10
  S2: this sort of technical issue, where the airline could not
• 10:14
  S2: tell the public quickly enough that these flights weren't going
• 10:17
  S2: to fly because of a communications issue. Similar with the
• 10:20
  S2: flight credits, he says along those lines that the call
• 10:23
  S2: center was overwhelmed. They couldn't get the message out quickly
• 10:26
  S2: enough that these credits people would still have access to them.
• 10:29
  S2: But then it's things like, well, then why didn't you
• 10:31
  S2: just take the expiry date off? And he says, well,
• 10:33
  S2: we kept the expiry date on to ensure that there
• 10:35
  S2: was enough of a motive for people to want to respond. But,
• 10:38
  S2: I mean, they're calling into a call center that's got
• 10:40
  S2: like an eight hour wait on it. So, I mean,
• 10:42
  S2: it starts to become a bit like, you know, you
• 10:45
  S2: have to look at it with your own critical eye.
• 10:47
  S1: Chris, is this book a non-apology apology?
• 10:50
  S2: You know, I would say it like this. It's an
• 10:52
  S2: apology followed almost immediately by a detailed explanation about what
• 10:56
  S2: everybody else got wrong.
• 10:57
  S1: That doesn't sound like a good apology. Chris, having not
• 11:00
  S1: read the book, I mean, do any of us like
• 11:02
  S1: that apology in real life when someone goes, I'm really sorry,
• 11:06
  S1: but every psychologist worth their salt always says, don't do that.
• 11:10
  S1: Don't do that.
• 11:11
  S2: Yeah, there is an element of which I find, I mean,
• 11:13
  S2: that's a very interesting aspect of the personality, which is that,
• 11:17
  S2: you know, he's big enough to apologize, but then he's
• 11:20
  S2: also has this like, no, you must understand it is
• 11:23
  S2: this it is that it? Is this.
• 11:24
  S1: Okay? But I want to ask you then, like, let's
• 11:26
  S1: drill down into it. Does Alan Joyce take responsibility? Does
• 11:29
  S1: he accept that he was just wrong and had really
• 11:32
  S1: made the wrong call when the company sacked these 1800
• 11:35
  S1: workers during Covid? Obviously, the the High Court obviously has
• 11:40
  S1: agreed that's what happened, that it was illegal. Qantas agreed
• 11:43
  S1: to pay $120 million in compensation to the workers. Then
• 11:46
  S1: it was fined another $90 million by the court for
• 11:49
  S1: not being sufficiently contrite. And I believe I don't know
• 11:53
  S1: how many of them, but I believe the workers, many
• 11:55
  S1: of them, if not all of them, are still waiting
• 11:57
  S1: for compensation. Is that right?
• 11:58
  S2: That's right, that's right. They're waiting for compensation as they
• 12:01
  S2: go through this process and figure out exactly how much
• 12:04
  S2: each individual victim is owed based on their individual circumstances.
• 12:09
  S1: Okay, so the company was fined an additional. I find
• 12:11
  S1: that's so interesting. Was it $90 million for not being
• 12:14
  S1: sufficiently contrite in this book? Is Alan Joyce sufficiently contrite? Chris.
• 12:19
  S2: I don't want to judge myself, but it is his
• 12:21
  S2: account of events. And I would say that if you're
• 12:24
  S2: looking for pure contrition, you might not get that. Exactly.
• 12:30
  S2: I mean, it's it is contrition, but with a heavy
• 12:33
  S2: helping of, you know, explanation. And you must understand, and
• 12:37
  S2: other people don't understand that this is the way that
• 12:39
  S2: the world works. And a lot of other explanations that
• 12:41
  S2: many people may find not very compelling. Having said that,
• 12:46
  S2: it's an interesting read.
• 12:47
  S1: And so I'm just curious, you mentioned there that he's
• 12:49
  S1: got all kinds of caveats. You know, he might sort
• 12:51
  S1: of express some contrition, but then there's all kinds of caveats.
• 12:53
  S1: So what are his caveats about, for instance, the decision
• 12:56
  S1: to sack these 1800 workers during Covid?
• 12:59
  S2: Well, he points out that in August 2020, when this
• 13:03
  S2: decision was made, the expectations for the impact of Covid
• 13:07
  S2: on aviation were incredibly dramatic. In fact, he says that
• 13:10
  S2: they were thinking at the time it would be worse
• 13:12
  S2: than September 11th, worse than the global financial crisis. And
• 13:15
  S2: in fact, Qantas wasn't, you know, was contemplating getting rid
• 13:19
  S2: of 10,000 employees. So to give you some context, they
• 13:22
  S2: have less than 30,000 employees in the company. So that
• 13:25
  S2: would have been massive. So I think his argument is,
• 13:28
  S2: you know, hindsight is a great thing. We can look
• 13:30
  S2: back and say this was an excessive move to get
• 13:32
  S2: rid of these workers in such a way. But his
• 13:34
  S2: argument is that if you roll back the clock to
• 13:37
  S2: that time, we were considering something much more dramatic.
• 13:40
  S1: And so, Chris, just to wrap up, what is the
• 13:42
  S1: state of Qantas reputation now? You know, did the ghost
• 13:45
  S1: flights and the sacking of the workers and all the
• 13:47
  S1: controversy that occurred in Covid? You know, did it leave
• 13:51
  S1: its reputation in tatters and how does it recover?
• 13:53
  S2: Well, I should say I mean, there's a class action
• 13:55
  S2: suit against Qantas for the compensation for people who've lost
• 13:58
  S2: money on these flights that have paid in and they
• 14:01
  S2: never got the full amount back as well. So it's
• 14:03
  S2: it's sort of been this, you know, this ongoing scandal
• 14:07
  S2: that has shadowed the company. So when Joyce stepped down,
• 14:10
  S2: the then CFO, Vanessa Hudson, took over as CEO. And
• 14:13
  S2: she has been quite methodical about rebuilding, as she says,
• 14:17
  S2: sort of trust not just between Qantas and its customers,
• 14:21
  S2: but internally. And this has been quite a bit of work.
• 14:24
  S2: I can only say anecdotally, it seems like there is
• 14:27
  S2: some traction there. I don't think that the Qantas brand
• 14:31
  S2: has been damaged forever, but it is clearly quite a
• 14:35
  S2: lot to live down. And so the current leadership of
• 14:37
  S2: Qantas is aware of this. And they've been taking steps
• 14:40
  S2: to try to build that up. But again I mean
• 14:42
  S2: the cost of flying is high. There's always a lot
• 14:44
  S2: of dissatisfaction with the service that people get. They're always
• 14:48
  S2: very ready to sort of pounce after they hear all these,
• 14:52
  S2: you know, these lofty statements about caring about the customer.
• 14:55
  S2: If there's a gap between what the company is promising
• 14:57
  S2: and what it delivers, people don't hold back about, you know,
• 15:00
  S2: that experience. So there's still some ways to go. But
• 15:03
  S2: I do think that the Qantas at this point is,
• 15:05
  S2: you know, they're trying to change the page on this.
• 15:08
  S2: They would point out that all of these things that
• 15:09
  S2: have happened in court are now legally they're history for Qantas.
• 15:14
  S2: So now this history of this time really sits in
• 15:16
  S2: the lap of Alan Joyce.
• 15:25
  S1: Thank you so much for your time.
• 15:27
  S2: Thank you Sam.
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