Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #354 | Why Busy Builders Go Broke (And What the Best Builders Do Differently) | Mark Vasalo & Paul Hogan
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:53) Good morning and welcome to the Good Builder Podcast. I have two gentlemen that I'm actually dying to talk to right now. We just had a about a 10 minute chat about what they've been doing and their sort of experience in the industry and what they're seeing. And I'll tell you what, I probably couldn't be more excited for a podcast. And the other thing that I loved about these two gentlemen was they came to us and offered up their experience and there's 60 years of it, and that's pretty damn impressive. Today we have Mark Vasalo and Paul Hogan who have come at residential construction from two different directions. Mark's background spans building businesses, sales, leadership, and strategy, along with the financial perspective of a chartered accountant. And I think that's pretty impressive. And when I've seen good builders, many of them have that sort of background. Paul, on the other hand, has spent much of his career across residential development. Acquisitions, project management, and land rezoning and master plan communities, including Rolls with Murvac and Stockland. Today they're the directors of Dixon Home Sydney, working across Sydney, the Central Coast, Southwest Sydney, and the South Coast. And what interested me about this conversation with these gentlemen is that they've come from those two different angles. They've been inside some of the biggest organizations, they understand land and development, they understand sales. They understand the numbers and now they're experiencing the realities of operating and growing their own residential business. So rather than talk to you about where the market's going and what's going on, I'm gonna try and dig into this 60 years of experience with these two impressive gentlemen. And I am super pumped to welcome to the Good Builder Podcast, Mark and Paul. How are you guys? Really good, Aaron. Thank you. mate, after I've after I heard that intro, I feel I I feel amazing. mate, well, it's all the truth. Look at what you've done. And and as we were talking about before the beginning of the pod, Mark and Paul, you know, like I I gave you a brief of my background and how I wanted to be a builder so badly. And, you know, it didn't end up that way. And and I think it truly is one of the the hardest industries and professions to make. And I think as Paul said, and rightly so, I think it takes a lot of passion and I think that's why I had a bit of passion reading out your introductions. I wanna I wanna do put the spotlight on good builders, and you too, I definitely am with your backgrounds and what you're about to share. Mate, I'll I'll do a retake if you want something that pumps you up a little bit more. But well, first of all, I I just wanted to yeah, welcome you both to the to the studio, albeit virtually, but also just start off with digging into a of both your journeys and and sort of where you come from and how you both found yourselves at Dixon and in partnership. Who wants to sort of go first there? I'll kick off. I mean I think it's a it's you you were talking before about you know what attracts us to this industry. And I and I do think I do think that over the years, you know, you see the people that that really love the industry are the ones that I think succeed the most in And yeah, it's a uni it is a unique industry. And for me, it was you know, my parents built some houses along the way. And I, you know, was involved in that and I saw that. And you know, I I I love the idea that you can create something, you know, and and then from a customer's perspective, the idea that you can actually put something of yourself into a design and then and get a home built. There's not too many industries I don't think that would allow that. You know, if you go and buy a car, you can put You can go and make some choices. You can choose the colour and and and maybe you know the wheels, etc. But you don't get the opportunity to design it. So I I can't think of any other industry where you you you have that. And for something that's so important, your home is, I think, the the the cornerstone of our of our lives, you know, that that we live in a in a home, families grow up in a. So it was a big deal and it's a high ticket item, you know, as as we all know, people put their life savings into it. So it's an important thing. So I think I got sort of really caught up in that. And I think that that really drove me i into the industry. And I like a yes, I started in accounting and I had exposure to the building industry through through through some clients. And and I was just like, wow, you know. So my my journey started with Alum Home. Barney Alam's business, Allen Holmes. I started at the age of 27 and I went in as a general manager. Yeah. and you know, he he needed someone with my my skills at the time to sort of navigate where we were at. And you know, that 10 years I spent there was was wonderful. You know, we really grew a very successful business there, a very strong brand in the contract housing business, but also in land development. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And then I I moved on to do some developments myself. And then I found myself building some sort of more upmarket sort of product and homes down at Little Bay. We did a lot of houses down there. in that Prince Henry estate. we built some you know three, four million dollar homes there. Yeah, wonder and and then I I did some time consulting to Sekasui House. the the Japanese owner. Yeah. and then I got a phone call from Bill McDonald at McDonald Jones and they wanted to start a two story division. Yeah. And I I kicked that off for them. Wow and then started Mojo homes for that for that group. So we keep Mojo homes. And and you know, that I had a I had a fantastic ten years with McDonnell Jones and and Mojo and we just felt that, you know, after COVID there there was opportunities to start a business on a smaller scale in terms of being able to deal with our customers directly. met Paul and we kicked this off and we've been going for three years now. and it's been it's been wonderful. Yeah. So that's a very short sort of summary of where where where it all started for me and where we end up. But the but the real the driving factor is still that I do get a kick out of I do get a kick out of seeing people, you know, look at a home, look at a plan, come up with a new design. I really love it. I mean I I did accountancy, but yeah, I think architecture was somewhere in there, but I never Never got went down that path, but I do I do love design and and seeing a plan come together. that's cool. Well you're figuring out a solution, aren't you? Mark, you know what I mean? When you're doing it and you're figuring out a solution. I can I can feel the passion in your voice. And actually thinking about your comment actually around the introduction and that you felt pretty pumped up. I reckon it could have pumped you way more up. Your experience is wild. No total. We had a lot of experience through because we we built a lot of display homes, you know, and we used to have to pour hours and hours into those designs and and and what the customers were really looking for and trying to come up with things that would make an impact. but you know, all that being said, in the end it was always simplicity and flow in design that won. In any survey we ever did with customers, the most important thing was always the floor plan. So if you have like good floor plans as a builder, that's the critical thing. And and that's what people will spend time pouring over floor plans. because I think it it it it's a passion for a lot of people. I think people that end up end up wanting to build something have that sort of that that core sort of belief as well. It's we sort of seem to attract each other, I think. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. And you know what? We've had I think we've done over three hundred and fifty episodes. We haven't talked enough about floor plans. I reckon you're completely right. When back in my GJ days, I I I've never even spoken about them on the pod. You great point. They were the thing that that customers would be fiddling around with, would be wanting to see, all of that sort of stuff. Great point. That's very cool. What about you, Paul? Make tell us a little bit about your background and yeah, how you ended up with with Mark and Dixon. Sure. I was fortunate enough to more or less grow up in the housing industry. My grandparents and family were involved with a pretty at a pretty senior level with a major building company through the seventies and eighties. So through my school time I was always close to it, visiting display homes. and the like. So I've always had a major interest and passion in the in the industry. I was fortunate enough to start with Mervak Homes in the sales and marketing division of their housing business at Parramatta, which was a great exposure and a great platform to really learn the market, understand what people needed, and really sort of build up that market intelligence. And I was quite fortunate with the team there. I got based on the the sort of sales experience that I had, I I moved into into the land development division of that business and was involved in a lot of the greenfield acquisitions for Nurvac homes and later as we acquired sites I went on to project manage those sites and it was It was quite interesting because a a a lot of the team has sort of come from a land economics background and maybe from more of a sales marketing background, it was it was really good to be able to add the value of instead of just cutting up estates to achieve a yield, we're really able to sort of create suitable communities that would suit market segments and different prior markets. So it was yield was one thing that you that we always looked to get out of of land and we had minimums that we had to achieve. But you know, applying the product knowledge of what customers really needed and the type of housing that we needed to provide in these communities was really good. And I sort of worked worked through that. I went on to Stockland to run the residential community business. so it was quite involved in land. But with having the exposure, Murvac being a constructor. I always had a passion for the built form. So I when I I I ended up going to Mark and we started a at Mojo, we started a a duplex medium density division within the mojo brand. And that was good because it was it's a real built form solution to you know the pressures in the housing. market for either greenfield or knockdown where you could actually provide more housing on the same block of land and increasing densities, you know, and it was it was it was sort of targeted or labelled as that missing middle. There was apartments that people could downsize to, there was large residential houses or even just you know detached single residential houses. But there was, you know, apart from the odd townhouse development, there was that missing middle. And the duplex business really sort of catered to that market really well. And we built a specialist team in that business. and we I worked with Mark for six years running, you know, working in that Magma brand as the GM, and it was a fantastic brand and a great business. Absolutely. but really just had this desire to help people get into housing that is a little bit more affordable without it being a major compromise in size. so we decided to start with Dixon. I had had some affiliation with the Dixon brand before. I knew they had great systems and great plans in place for us to be able to run a reasonably low overhead business where we could actually still be involved and and and make that difference in the delivery, not just in the in the front end of creating sales. So we we started Dixit about three years ago and have really just focused on that knockdown rebuild market and in particular duplex developments. Yeah great. So w Paul and I, you know, we we shared the same sort of belief system and value system in terms of you know the old school industry. The industry that I came into in the nineties was very much about give as least information as you can at the start. And then once buyers become more invested in the process, so they've got plans drawn, they've lodged them to council, they've signed a contract, you then give them what you know, the hard the hard sort of news about extra costs. Once they're invested in the funnel, right? And once they're in the funnel and they're deeper in the funnel, it's harder for them to get out of get out. That's the philosophy, right? Yeah. We hated that. I love it. You know, and my my my mission was to was to try and change the industry from doing that. We we we we believed that it needed to be more transparent. You know, people should know. Yeah. What is what is what ought to be known. There are some things that you don't know, there are some things that you you can't know until certain information is obtained. But we we were very much about, you know, let's give information up front. Let's tell people what's expected. You know, and if people if if we tell people that and someone else tells them something different and they look at it through rose coloured glasses, well, we're more interested in our future reputation than we are in just getting that one particular deal. So we've we've We we we've aligned with the Dixon brand because Dixon is all about that. It's all about giving information up front, being crystal clear and offering a a good product for a good price. And and and that's what we're about. And Mark and I led you know, we led that in big business. It was, you know, the the industry had a reputation in some instances well deserved, about that funnel that Mark was talking about. And yeah Our philosophy was if you can find out, you should find out. And if it takes another ten minutes or another half an hour to basically uncover something that the client can benefit from knowing earlier, then we need to spend that time to do it. So you try and take a project on an individual basis, like it's your project. And you know, I sort of learnt that from the disciplines of development, where we we would develop everything like it was our own project. And it was like our own money and our our family's money. And when you relay that through to housing, if people can just take another ten minutes, twenty minutes to ask the questions or find out what needs to be found out like they would if it was their own property. I think that's our responsibility. Mark and I were pretty well aligned and and we wanted to make that difference in the housing business. we did that in our previous life with a big business and we certainly We certainly do that now in in our business at Dixon. Yeah. It's fascinating. You guys have fascinating backgrounds. And even coming from one thing, and I don't mean to be to be rude to all of our audience out there, but one thing I found really fascinating is when when I've had guests on that were from bigger business and they get that view and access to different things, probably a little bit like we talked about previously, because it was really interesting, Paul. I worked for Murvac too. And I worked in more of the commercial division, but you kind of get all this information and different things and you start to look at different perspectives. And I think you know, having that background for you guys has really benefited you as well as your mindset of that transparency. I think that funnel that you talk about, I used to hate that when I was at GJ Gardener. We used to try and stamp that out in any franchise that used it. And we knew that a lot of the the major builders and and some of the biggest builders in Australia use it still to this day. And I think it you're precisely right. I think it was Mark, I think you said this, mate. you know, it damages the reputation of not only the building, but the industry, everyone, everyone thinks that this is how builders operate. and and it really isn't. There's good builders out there like you guys. So now that you've kind of done, you know, that all all of that experience and you kind of spoken to how you operate your business, what do you think you understand about the industry today that you probably didn't understand 20 or 30 years ago? What's some of the things that have maybe changed or you or you or you think you know, more about or do you think builders maybe even need to think more about than what we've been doing in the past? I think one thing for me is, you know, earlier in my career it was easy to think that a successful meeting was just to achieve a sale. And now to really realise a successful meeting is one where the customer really understands what it is that they're getting into. Yeah. And taking the time for them to really understand what all their options are, opposed to just putting them into And I call it a sausage machine, without really knowing or caring about what the outcome is going to be. and you know, sometimes that means changing the designs, it means revisiting budgets, you know, sometimes it's telling them things that they might not have expected to to to hear, but you know, those conversations can be uncomfortable, but they're much easier to have when somebody's committing that much money. I mean, a thing, a philosophy that we work with here every single day is, you know, a customer can recover from being disappointed in a meeting. it's much harder to recover from being disappointed halfway through a build. Yeah. So we just have those upfront conversations and we take the time for customers to really understand what it is because I think when you reflect on why is the industry Or why does the industry have a reputation? It's because customers' expectations just don't get met. And that might mean that customers' expectations just aren't set. Yeah. So if we the difference and what I've learned over time is how important that is to get that set up front. Set the expectation. Love it. And manage the expectation. Yeah. And and and with that. Mark, are you talking more about the communication as you're building the communication throughout the whole process and all of that, just making sure they're on top of what you're on top of? I mean, people people, you know, it can see if something's not right or something's been left out, you know. And what I've always said to to to any team that I've been associated with is that it's easier to deal with the with an issue. in the earliest possible time than it is to wait. We call it, you know, the earliest possible time is point easy. That's the easy that's the easy time to it. Leaving leaving it till later is point hard. Yeah. Point hard is more costly. It's more you know taxing on on emotions and and Relationship. So, you know, deal with things at the time that they become, you know, a problem so that they don't become a bigger problem. I think the thing for me, you know, I I mean, obviously one of the biggest changes we've seen in in my time in the industry is the technology. And the technology that's available now makes things simpler. But it doesn't make it easier. Like the basics Communication still need to be there. The basics of managing the expectations still need to be there. The technology doesn't alleviate that, but it does make it simpler to for us to do it. we used to have to go and look at a site and take levels, right? Before we tender, whereas now it's available online, right? Yeah. So it's simpler, but you still have to interpret the thing properly. It's not easier, like the the job has still got to be done right. So you can you can come up with the right outcome. But we've got better tools now and we can do things more efficiently. But it's it's still you know got to be done right. And you know the I think one of the things for me like in the in the roles I've had in the past I've been a bit more removed from the cut the construction interface. You know and what I'm you know really realising the value in the in the WHS systems in having good relationships with the trades, good relationships with the suppliers. that is crucial, I think, in this in this industry now more than ever. You know, I think that the the the the partnership with the trades and the suppliers in building these homes is vital. And you know everybody needs to understand, you know, where everyone's coming from. I mean the builder has committed to a price and he needs to deliver on it. And it's hard if costs are escalating when a builder's in that position because the customer is the mum and dad, they're not they're not able to just pay more money, you know. So we all have to work together to get to get the project finished. and my hope is that, you know. when things really do heat up that we're able to to to make that happen. Yeah. Mark, I reckon that's a really good point, mate. I think we talked just before the pod about what's happening up here in Queensland. And I know that what's happening up here in Queensland with the the coming on to the twenty thirty two Olympics is going to affect the other states. that's not that's one little example of of things we've got to look out for, where we're going to lose trades, you're going to lose suppliers, all that sort of stuff. And And as as you said, and as we talked about trying to achieve even the housing accord and getting that right. I mean, we've got to work as a team. Not that we're gonna achieve it. I truly believe we're gonna c we're never gonna get there. I don't know why we keep talking about the number, but we just need to work as a team as best we can. I think that is one of the most critical pieces of information. And I don't want to talk about the Good Builder, but it was one of the reasons we started the Good Builder because when I was Trying to have my own building company and I think we spoke again very briefly before this pot everyone I was talking about, you know, we we were I was a bit of the softer partner in the business gentleman was a bit of the harder partner and I was always trying to, you know, have more of a team environment with our trades and things like that. And I I used to it was har it was hard. It was even hard. and that was over the covet periods where people were poaching and and needed more. Well, it it is hard. And like the government like you know would would introduce something like the Olympics, which obviously has benefits, but it is a massive has will have a massive impact on our industry. But just even things like building a data centre. I'm glad you brought that up. You know, they're they're like three and four year projects building something like that. And they'll they are paying top dollar to trades to go and work there. I mean a mate of mine's got a son who's an electrician. Yeah. He'll make he's he's like twenty-two, he'll make three, four thousand dollars a week. Mate, yeah. I've got a nephew doing that right now. You know, if the alternative to go and work in a building site in a house doing a roughing where he's making five, five hundred bucks a day, you know. which is good money for a young guy, but it's it's not, you know, you can see why why people go there, right? And There's lot more of that happening as well. So it's a big challenge, massive. So I think, yeah, getting back to the relationship. I think, you know, if anything, 30 years has taught me it's those relationships are critical. And I'm doing the right thing by people and and hoping that, you know, it it'll come back to you. Very cool, Mark. And Paul. I know we're talking about trades as a challenge, but land, and I might point this one at you, Paul, if you don't mind me. Sure. you know, you've got a really great experience and and and significant experience in your career around. land and land acquisitions, rezoning, all that sort stuff. What are builders what do you think builders misunderstand most about the parts of the housing system to do with land what would be the what's something that builders need to know about that Paul, but I hear a lot of builders up here in in Queensland, for example, that have almost started to become quasi developers and builders that are trying to buy little lots and then and build them out themselves. Is that something that you'd you'd recommend or or if you should extend land space? So with land, one of the biggest misconceptions is the affordability of land and how much it actually costs to develop and how much of that cost is actually taxes. And the amount that builders really need to understand is what the cost of that land has been. The other issue which I think gets ignored is often the topography or constraints on the on the land. I know we spoke about the importance of a housing floor plan layout and a design. But I think really coming from the the built form and and this is the benefit that I've had is working in both creating the land and then designing the built form or having the built form designed around the land is, you know, the the topography of the land or the falls or the constraints of the land, the shape, where the services are or where they're not, really needs to be considered a little bit deeper. I think Sometimes because customers do love floor plans and obviously we all love floor plans, you can rush straight into falling in love with a particular design without considering what the on flow effects of cost that that might have when go when you actually go to build it or when you're trying to create a place to live in. So like levels is a big a big thing that I think personally I influence in with customers about how they, you know, propose to live in the area, what the levels of the backyard are going to be. A lot of times the builders will just plot plot a a house design on a block of land without any consideration of the cut and fill, what the driveway gradients are going to be, where the services are going to be located, where people are going to barbecue, where their kids are going to play, you know, how do they expect to live from inside to outside. So I I think when it comes to land, we I think from a builder's point of view, you need to give it a little bit more respect on what it is that the clients actually purchase, what it's cost them. So when you're working out budgets and things like that, it's not unusual for customers to come with a budget where they've spent more than fifty percent of it on the on the block of land. So you you really need to make sure that you're starting from the right starting point in a design understanding what the other costs are because the last thing you want to skimp out on is things that are going to affect how you live on the block. And that could be something as simple as a retaining wall or how much cut you've got or how much fill you've got. So yeah, I I'd I'll just give you a real quick live example. We've got a customer, we've got a the block falls away from the street. we obviously want to keep the house as high as we can. We've got height restrictions that we've got to try and achieve. now a builder would simply just if if a builder just didn't understand the on-flow effects of what the the land is going to be, they just work out an even cut and fill. That's the cheapest way to do it. The client doesn't have to think about exporting fill or what the additional costs of that are going to be. But then the the outcome is the house is buried lower than the lower than the road and They're gonna have on flowing or ongoing effects of of drainage, water flow down garages, where if we can establish the true cost of the benefits of exporting fuel, putting some edge beams on the house to keep the house as as elevated as we can, it it might cost a little bit more for them to do it, but the outcome's gonna be much better for them because they're not having to retain The block, which is after we've gone when they're doing landscapings and and they've got to work out they've got, you know, twenty thousand dollars worth of field to export or they've got to put retaining walls in, which are gonna cost it an extra. If we can incorporate that into the design and the whole outcome is better. So the reason it's important to know that is because a builder should start from the right price point at the beginning. Yeah. Then starting too high and then trying to take things away from a customer when the budget's blown out by additional costs at the end. So I think, you know, the cheapest block isn't the cheapest outcome. I think that's a that's a a a consumer myth that they need to understand better. But from a builder, they really need to take a holistic approach on not just their scope of works, but what does the owner have to do after the builder's gone and how is the owner going to live in it? After the building is gone. That's something I think we as an industry need to be a little bit better at. Yeah. And and Paul, on the on the inverse, mate, excuse me, on the inverse, have you had examples where you've, because you've got a great understanding of land, and I'm I'm sure Mark does too, where you've helped a client to actually maybe save money on the land and the way they're building so they can put more of that budget into the house? if they're looking at positioning positioning the the house wrong or or they didn't have to do various things, is it also that sort of benefit as well that you see, mate? Yeah, we do. And and like you mentioned earlier, builders getting in becoming developers themselves because built form is the best solution to overcome any issue with any particular block of land. And being a land developer when you're not a when you're not a builder, it that's frustrating because the benefits of the likes of Nurvac We could build out a solution or come or design a some built form solutions around some issues with land. When you're just a land developer, you don't necessarily have the benefit to be able to do that. So we we help people select land. We help people select the best land. And often when people go and buy land, they're typically just looking at the most rectangle block that looks great on paper. Yeah. But we can actually help them find lots that might end up being better to live in. For example, it could be a little bit narrow at the front and it could it could flip splay out to the rear. Depending on and having the right design, they could end up with more backyard and less front yard. The land could end up costing less than if they just bought a rectangle block. so again it's it's just taking the responsibility, just like if it was me or my brother or my mother. At buying a property or wanting to build a new property, because there's nothing better than building one. Yeah. To make sure that you've looked at the whole project and really taken into consideration all your options before you just go and buy the the most rectangular looking block of land on a on a land sales plan. Love it. Love it. Again, Mark's raised floor plans, you raising land. We haven't had enough chatter on the podcast about those two things and they're critical. I think you guys have raised and talked about some really cool things. I think there's another thing that I'd love to talk about, and this one's for Mark. You know, Mark, you've and we hear this a lot in the industry, and you kind of see it. you know, you talk to someone, ask them how busy they are, they're super busy. And you've worked across all the senior management positions, you've built businesses, you've got your financial background. When you look at a residential business, and this is where I think accountants and and having a bit of I know you're not an accountant, but having a bit of that accountant background really does help. What separates you know, a a busy builder from an actual healthy builder, Mark? How do you define that and how do you look at that, mate? I think you've got a any builder's pipeline, you need to assess how much of it is on land that is ready to go. And how much is it on land that's unregistered? Because a lot of people will go and buy a block of land off the plan that's not going to be registered for 18 months. They'll go and get a quote from a builder. The builder will pretend that the land is level, that the house will fit, and provide a quote. Now, that quote is fairly meaningless because it really assumes that the thing's level and that it will and that by the time the house starts, the price will have to be redetermined because prices can go up, as we all know. So that's a bit of a marketing machine to get to get jobs in the system. But th those jobs don't really go anywhere. Until you build the house or start building the house, the buil a builder doesn't make any money. And in fact it costs money to to work on a pipeline that is in the long, you know, for the long term. So I think that's a big one. you know, you can be busy but not necessarily turning over jobs in in construction. That's the critical thing. The jobs in construction. We don't even quote on unregistered land for us. wow. Okay. Unless it's gonna be registered in a you know in a three to four months time. Because it gets back to the values that we have in terms of not wanting to bullshit anyone. Yeah. Anyone can do a quote. I can give you a quote in five seconds I assuming the bock of land's level and it all fits and here it is is a price on today's price list. That means nothing, right? Yeah. But people will pay a small deposit and feel like they've bought something. So there's there's business method behind that, you know, and I and I get it. But that's not what we do. What we do is we like to work on things that are known, right? So we can give people the right price, you know, and tell them. This is this is the the situation. And we don't want to bog ourselves down with projects that can't happen for twelve to eighteen months. What's the point of that? Except we're able to manage our overheads in a sufficient way to be able to be more competitive because those are the sort of decisions we've made. Plus, we've got a very good system that can help with pricing accurately. All our all our plans are linked to bills of quantities, so which are updated daily. So we know what our costs are. And a builder has to know what his costs are. If he doesn't know what his costs are, that's the recipe for disaster. And it doesn't prevent knowing your cost doesn't prevent the fact that the costs can rise, because like I was saying before, you know, in a competitive field, you know, you could you'd be paying more for a carpenter than you're paying last week, more for a brick buyer. But knowing what your costs are, you've got margin there that you've that you're able to to utilise to to work with those sort of situations. Whereas if you don't know your starting point, it's very hard. And if all you're doing is operating on cash flow and for whatever reason cash flow dries up, and there's a lot of things that can happen for cash flow to dry up, whether whether of being the obvious one, but that's not all. you can you can end up in a lot of trouble. And you know, like we've all seen this massive building company that's recently gone into administration, debts of three billion plus. I mean, I just can't just understand how something can get so big. Because the the size doesn't mean that it's making a sustainable profit. Yeah. just on Buck's point, knowing the pricing doesn't mean you're you dear it either. I mean having a a correct bill of quantities that's derived from a plan eliminates the fudge factor where yeah an estimator thinks he's got a price and he'll add a bit more just in case and add a bit more to that in case and I don't want to be short so we'll cover that and you know we're we're we're able to be competitive in price. Because we know their accurate costs. And and you know the other but the flip side of that too is people people have asked me asked me, well why did you why did you go with Dixon? I mean you've had this experience, you could have started your own brand, you could have come up with your own design. But having having a a a a a national brand like Dixon, a public company with their buying power is a big price for us because we're able to to get pricing that a a large organization gets, but we're able to offer a service that's more hands-on. So for us, it's a real win-win for our customers, you know. Absolutely. To be able to do that. And I think that was more important to us, being able to offer that. but but yeah, but Paul's right. Knowing your cost doesn't mean you you're dear because we've we've got the buying power. We do have very competitive pricing. But we we are very aware of what's important, you know, and and knowing the cost is very important. Knowing what you can take on is very important, knowing where you can build, where you know, where you've got the capacity, et cetera. So I think this also be the attraction to, you know, the B2B clients, you know, in the retirement living space. Yeah. Yeah even even customers that come to us with already, you know, architecturally approved homes. You know, once once we draw it, we can accurately price it. to be as competitive as as if we develop the home. Yep. You know, we can also manage the buildability and take out un the you know, unnecessary costs out of the design if we need to, which is typical with an architectural home. but having those systems in place really helps and I think that's probably one of the competitive edges when you're dealing with institutional like retirement living. Developers, yeah. But you know, being having having absolutely being aware of what you take on, the the the volume you take on, the type of work you take on, is the way you can manage your overhead. Yeah. In the in the building industry, builders that are just builders, not developers, the main risk is margin and overhead. Yeah. So throwing people into an organization lifts the overhead very quickly. Yeah. Display homes, having a display home footprint lifts the overhead very quickly. Big marketing budget. So you can imagine when you've got a lot of staff, big marketing budget, big display footprint, right? You need to make a lot of sales to to cover that. Yeah. And that's where the volume mentality comes from to fuel And and cover all that. Whereas if you take a different approach to it, say, look, you know what, we don't want a big display footprint. We don't need a lot of staff because we've got a system that actually does things. It's automated, you know. Yeah. Our drafting, our drafting and estimating is an automated function. it's and and and you can you can keep your the number of staff down because of that, you can actually deliver better value for your customers and not have the risk of Too many projects. Because when things do go crazy, right, the last thing you want is too much work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You know, Aaron, from my side of the business It's bringing the it's bringing the business in. But, you know, we I have to remember with the sales team, you know, that every sale is a promise that the rest of the team have to deliver. Yeah. And there's no point us making promises that the team can't deliver. Yeah. So those decisions are made very early and right up front. And that's the that's one of the benefits of being involved, you know, right at the front end. Yeah. Well I mean in in a typical organisation and and you know, and I think builders have the bright intentions. It's not a deliberate thing, but what what tends to happen is because of the scale, the salespeople will will do what they can to get a deal. Right? Yep. And it goes into an office and then the office will then, you know, deal with that with that with that client and that issue. We have our sales and operations functions basically combined. So so the Paul and and that front end team are getting the the the the home ready for construction in a combined fashion. So there is no sort of like using them and passing it passing the buck, you know. That's where a lot of issues happen. it's it's a it's a big it's a big problem. Yeah it is. I mean I think if huge problem if the customer's got to tell their story five times, then something needs fixing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when you're playing those games where the customer says, Well, I spoke to them and they said something different and then it's a lot it's a lot of that. It was a bit of the downpull of Avondale Homes, my previous business. So I'm feeling everything you're saying. Yeah. I love it. I love the way you guys operate. It's very, very interesting. And and Dixon as a brand is a great Australian brand. They've been around for so long. And one of the only publicly listed. I'm really glad that you brought that up, actually. Mark, that was super cool. And been around for years. And and one thing I've always noticed about Dixon is they're highly successful and they don't have to market. You guys don't have to market too much compared to a lot of the other guys. And I think that's when you were talking on our marketing budgets, because that was a bit of my realm in the in the days and and things like that. And I used to always look at Dixon and say, Man, you guys do well and you're not you're not spending the millions that we are. And like you say, you have to uphold those millions. You've got to make those millions. And you and when the when the goal of I I'm not trying to Point any builder or any of my experience, but I'm trying to say in a way that like when the goal is to make money to keep the business to keep going, you start to lose sight of the customer and why you actually built in the first place. And that's what I'm feeling from you guys. You know, I'm feeling there's certain big behemoths in our industry that are just doing things to survive and and to keep going, and they're gonna fuel the beast. And if they don't, it's it's done. And I think we nearly saw that over COVID. And then there's other builders like yourselves that are looking at how can we do this better? How can we do this not only better as a business for for ourselves and you should because you deserve all the success you guys get. You know, as I said at the beginning of the podium, why we do this at the good builder, I think there's not a harder business to run. But then you're also thinking about the client and the industry and how do we make this a better product and and and better. solution for our industry so we can get these people into homes. I love the way you guys think. I think it's phenomenal. I think yeah I'm not knocking I'm not knocking competitors or bigger companies. I mean the the fact is they they they they do a good job they play a role but I think our advantage is that you're dealing with our experience hands on. It's a unique thing for us and it's a deliberate thing that we've done so that we can offer a a better service that that is in line with our values of of you know what we were talking about before of you know making people feel like they've had a a good experience. you know we we we we don't always get it right and we we we we address it straight away. Like I said we we do th we do address things quickly to resolve things and we're getting better all the time. we've got a really good team. it's a small team but it's it's a it's a good team and We've got a lot of good things in on the horizon and and I think, you know, our first three years have been good, but I think the next three years will be really good. I think so. And but yeah, but there are some headwinds in the industry and I and I think we've talked about those today and it's it's a matter of managing that. Yeah. No, I I think you guys have got a a great future ahead ahead and and one thing we do, we always look at the We'll just look at the customer and what they're thinking and how they're researching and things like that. And I'll tell you right now, a lot of customers out there are de-risking who they're building with, is what I'm kind of putting it to. Like they're putting it out on social, they're asking all these things. They're the the the biggest thing they're worried about is am I gonna choose like can I get through this build unscathed rather than aspiring to the home, which is scary, but like You guys are going to bring more of that faith back into it. And when they and I'm sure they already had they already have found you. I know you've had a successful three years, but to your point, over the next three years, Mark, and and for you, Paul, I think the more people that find you, the more people are going to want to build with you and and have that same philosophy as well. You're exactly what's very nice of you to say that. looking for. I think it's super cool. This is why we bring you guys you know, how we we we really welcomed you guys on the pod. So, you know, thank you very much for but I've I've got a few more questions. you've both worked I was very impressed with how you've both worked with the big ends of town. I think as I said earlier in the pod and a a bit of my experience and not to sound like a complete dickhead and I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but you you get a certain level of experience when you work for the big end of town. Now, for you both, what were some of the lessons that you learned in the Bigander Town that you've brought into your business or smaller builders could potentially benefit from? And what were some of the things that you would never bring into your business? if if you don't mind me asking, guys? Well, I I think yeah, Paul and I, the disciplines of the bigger business in terms of having structured meetings, I think, is something that we've continued. You know, that my last role was very, very structured that way. We'd have sales meetings, finance meetings. and it's important to to keep what's important, you know, going, even when you get smaller. I think that that that the reporting aspect of it as well, like we we still do our reporting. we've got a great CRM system which tells us where our jobs are up to. got a very good a brilliant system internally where we all all our jobs attract and and you know exception reports are are generated. I mean those things work so you know cash is king you gotta have you gotta have cash you gotta know you gotta be on top of your workflow your workflow is is king and that can that's that's pre- and post-construction. Right. So those those disciplines in the larger organizations. And I think the company that we we probably owe the most credit to for all those things is A. V. Jennings. A. V. Jennings, I think, gave birth to a lot of management in the industry where a lot of these things were were then created from how they ran that business, which was a very high overhead model. getting back to what we were saying before, very high marketing budget, very high overhead, but they actually did have some very, very intelligent people from that in that company that ended up you know filtering through the industry and a lot of a lot of the benefits from that I think went through. So a lot of those things that I've talked about in terms of how we managed it and and how we did the the the regular meetings and the and the and the management tools were born from that. And we've we've kept that going and I think that that's really important. Yeah. And I I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, the large organisations, y you know, the value of the systems, clear sense of responsibilities, the processes, the checking decisions before they become expensive, they're all really good disciplines to have, no matter the size of the business. And Mark and I continue to to use one of the basis. One of the b most effective tools, having said all that, is the informal. cup of coffee in the morning. Right? And debrief. Debrief that ten minutes that we spend most days is now we used to call them huddles. And it it i i I think it's something that is really important, you know, and the the the communication with the with the team out on site, et cetera on the side. Yeah and also debriefing Mark, I think, you know, the the debrief after a situation or a meeting on site. Very cool. So you guys do that if there's a issue or could be good or bad. Do a bit of a debrief. What'd we learn? What do we yeah? We we might do a construction tour and and we'll meet with the construction staff and then Mark and I we'll have a debrief about you know things that you can't always talk about on site. Yeah. Mark and I'll have a debrief and then we'll each come away with a set of actions and Love it. And things To put or change or put in place. Yeah. And being open about things, you know, we we can leave anything, you know, unknown. Everyone knows what's going on. Yeah. So in terms of the partnership, if you don't mind me asking between you two, is it very open communication, very transparent, all of that sort of thing? smiling a little bit. I can only I can only speak for for myself, Aaron. Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah. I'm just thinking back to last week when we were sharing the room. It was pretty transparent. Yeah, we're close, mate. Yeah. No, it's good. I can see that. I can see it. And you and I can see you've got I think you've got really good complementary strengths, both of you guys, but you've got I can see you've got that same mindset, the way you build, the way you do everything, but you've got these complementary skills. look, talking to you guys, I am like, I would build with you guys. Like I just feel the trust, I feel the experience, I feel the knowledge. You guys know it. You're talking about things we've never talked on the podcast. We've had some, you know, big hitters on here from A. V. Jennings and and the worlds of those sorts of things. So it it's been really yeah, it's it's phenomenal what you guys are are doing and and I love the partnership. I I really love that partnership aspect. Well Aaron, if you want to give me the address, I'll have quick look. I'd like to see what it is that we can put on there for you. I I I'd move back down to Sydney. I don't know if my wife would, but if you want to start Dixon Home Sunshine Coast, I think you'd I think you'd ha receive a warm welcome up here. I think we're looking for a few builders like you. Well they are there. I mean we've taken we've taken the essence of Dixon you know we've created our own website. So even though it's a franchise, we are able to market ourselves. you know and in a different way and we've we've we've done that deliberately but the bones of the Dixon offer in terms of their designs and and how they operate is very much part of our our business as well. But we've put our we've put our personal touch on the brand here in Sydney. Lovely. And we're gonna share all of that too. Mark we'll we'll put all the links below and we've got a few actually we've got a few customers. We've got a lot of customers that actually listen to us as well. And and the funny the interesting thing is our biggest audience is Sydney. So if you I hope you did pick up a few builds, you freaking deserve it. I think you any customer that does choose to build with with you, Mark and Paul, I think is gonna have a good good experience. So I'm more than happy to spruok you guys the cows come home. I think it's pretty freaking cool. I love what you do. I I I have a couple more questions and and one of them is around growth, when it helps and when it hurts. So now you're operating and and you've operated a larger business. What kind of small or mid-sized builders? Because I hear a lot of them, they want to scale, they want to grow, they want to do all of this. When is that a good idea? And when is it not such a good idea? And when do you think you know you're prepared for this? And do you know you're prepared for this? This might be interesting because you you scaled mojo and you're scaling yourselves and things like that. What does that sort of look like and what your thoughts around that? Well, it's gonna take you twice as long as you think. Right? Love it. Love it. So you're gonna need to make sure that that you've got the capital to be able to to cover it. It's probably gonna cost you twice as much as you think as well. Yeah. okay. So you know, it is important to to capitalise the business properly. but i I I I think the the the Any in terms of any scale, I mean I think one of the wisest things I heard is that the the wisest animal is the owl. Why? Because he he says who, who, who. It's it's the people. It's the people that you I warned you about the dad jokes. That's not a dead joke. I love you. It's the it's the who who do you gonna get? Who are you gonna get in your team to be able to take you where you want to get to? I think that's vital. And if you're gonna scale a business. That's what you've got to be looking for. you know, and I don't mind saying like for me, obviously starting a business, someone like Paul with his background is a great partner to have because yeah, we're d we are different and we d have done different things. So yeah, that's that's important. But but who you're gonna get on your team to scale is vital. And and you've gotta have you've got to have a good accountant who can tell you, right. how much everything's costing because scaling is expensive and it's important that you know that. So If you don't work some sort of budget you can end up in in all sorts of trouble. Yeah. And margin margin on the on the jobs has to be sufficient to to cover your overheads and give you a decent profit where you can reinvest into the business to handle that scale. I I think growth is growth is good. We all know, you know, with the right people and the right systems and construction capacity to support it, it's a benefit. And it's a problem, you know, when the sales pipeline gets ahead of your capabilities. And that's the discipline of choosing or understanding firstly what you're good at, what you can do well, and the discipline to stick to what you're good at and what you do well. Yeah. And then you can handle growth. Yeah. It looks like you guys do that in your business. Yeah, we look at it all the time. Yeah. That's exactly that's exactly right. And and we are year on year, we've doubled each year. And I think we'll continue to probably do that for the next three years. and there's there's a there's a level of work, Aaron, that you have to say no to. And it's not that it's a bad project, but if it if it's not in your wheelhouse and it's not within your capabilities to actually deliver on a promise. Mm then you don't do it. We you know, it it's not it's not selecty it's not being selective, but it's just being fair and upfront to a customer. you know, and I think when you in when you're growing your business, it's really important that you just don't take on things that you really don't have the capabilities to deliver. I I was just gonna say that even that takes discipline, doesn't it? This is where we fell down, like I don't want to go into my business, but we we weren't disciplined. We were we'll take whatever, we'll do whatever to get to where we were trying to go, but we were I I don't know what we were chasing in the end. Because and this is where the partnership is is really shines. I mean we we'll discuss and debate and and work out, you know, I mean, when when you're in in sales you're a an optimist all the time and you you want to believe that you can do everything and I think the partnership that Mark and I have and the involvement we have, we can really sit down and have those honest conversations about what we really want to take on and what we don't. Hmm. Yeah. And the benefit to you customers too would be immense. Because you've both got that size too. You got what's realistic you're gonna be as you were talking about through this whole podcast. I think Yeah the the things we don't just tip them out the window but You know, there's sometimes there's there's other builders that's that are better at it or specialise in that particular fit type of construction and we'll help them or recommend them to somebody else. Yeah. For me, like w we've got a few more questions to go, but like for me the theme of this pod, and I know I'm calling it pretty early because I haven't done this before on a podcast, but it's trust. I just feel you guys are doing everything you can. Your whole business is based around trust. Trust between the partnership, trust between you and the client, trust between you traders and suppliers, the transparency, the way you're operating, everything. I think it's it's cool. It's i i as I said, it's exactly what this industry needs. Well, I think you know, to get trust, the best way to do that is to is to offer respect, you know. And I think it is respectful to help try and help people with the correct advice rather than just trying to get them. So cool. Well, I think Mark touched on it earlier. I think you know. working together, we've worked together for the last nine years and I think that value our own personal values and how they align has what is what brought us together. It's what helped make the previous brands so successful and it's certainly what's gonna make this business successful as well. Yeah, we're doubling each year. You're an absolute success. And as I said, this has been one of the absolute coolest podcasts I've done. Like the the knowledge and experience and things you're talking about are really, really cool. We haven't talked about a lot of this stuff, which is very interesting. a couple more questions. Sydney, how's Sydney going? What's happening down in Sydney, the Central Coast and South Coast? Is the market, what's it looking like at the moment for the listeners around Australia, if you don't mind me asking? We talk a lot about Queensland on this pod. Yeah, we we had a really good start to this calendar year. like we've touched on, we really focus on the knockdown rebuild market. I think that's where our skill set is really beneficial to those customers and and having the development sense because essentially that's what it is, even though it's one home. Yes, still a development project. So we can offer a lot of value there. That market has been pretty good. With the budget announcements, like anything in the housing industry, it doesn't take a lot to make people just sit and wait. A lot of the customers I talk to now are starting to activate older projects or projects that they've that have been in the pipeline for sometimes up to two years. Yeah, right because they're realizing that it it's it's not necessarily a speculative project where they want to sell it, but they need to develop it. They don't want to live in the home that they're currently living in. They're making decisions that they want to stay where they live. So they want to update their the the housing accommodation where they live. Yeah. Those that have opportunities to build a duplex are obviously interested in that because there's no negative announcements with tax breaks in relation to duplexes. So that's been a a big benefit. So the market, although across the board seems to be quite depressed, we're still seeing i areas or opportunities where there's the more sophisticated developer customer. And then they're not a developer, they're still a mum and a dad, but they're actually developing their own sites. There's still those people that want to activate that property. And they know that construction prices aren't going to go down. they often in have quite good equity or own their own home, so their borrowing capacity's not impacted by interest rates. Although it's a cost, it's not impacted in the capacity of what they can borrow. Yeah. so we're still sort of seeing some activity in that market. But in a greenfield space I think it's definitely really dropped off. Yeah. people that are having to buy land and build or buy a whole house and land. I think the the interest rates is probably having the biggest impact in relation to not the cost of what the interest is, but the capacity for them to borrow enough money to actually buy land and build a house or buy a house. Yeah, it's happening a bit up here in Queensland Paul. What about what about you, Mark? What are you seeing down there? I think that You know, the old the old adage of you know buy in gloom and sell in doom is is a critical one for our times now. And I and I think the opportunities that are there for someone to buy a property and pay less than what they would have paid six months ago or twelve months ago. And looking at the property clock, you know, the the the the the market is on the way down, so you know, getting to Knowing where the bottom of the market is is hard to predict, you know, but you don't always have to be at the bottom when you buy, but you're you're you're you're buying in in gloom in that gloomy time when things are going down. Now's a great time to to find that property and build your dream home, or as Paul said, build a duplex where you know you can still enjoy the benefits of negative gearing on that. And I think a lot of the negative gearing negativity, what's gotten lost on it is that you can buy a block of land and build a house and negatively gear it. An investor can still do that, right? The government is trying to promote the industry for new homes by leaving those those benefits in place for new b for new builds. But I think a lot of that's lost in all the all the jargon. But I I think once the industrial people will see that. And I think there's value in greenfield land for that purpose. Yep. And also to build your own home. because the th the re the reality is with the market the way it is now, the thing that will keep it from going down a lot is supply. There's not a lot of supply, right? People will only sell in this market if they have to, right? So there's not gonna be a lot of stock. Right. So you know, you've got you've got that's that that that that situation. And the the the people that that d that that that see that okay I can build a house The houses that are available because there's limited stock is a massive compromise from a design point of view. And it gets back to this floor plan thing. People want something that they want to live in, right? So you either buy something, you you know, something established, right? And live in a compromise design, or you buy something and you can create something that you want. So that is still there, right? People still have dreams and aspirations. know they want to live in something nice, you know, they watch the block, people watch the block, people love, you know, what it can be what can be created. So that's that's all there. That's all still there. So I I'm still optimistic that there are there are still going to be people that will that will build, right? and our industry will will will still be there. But but yes, you've got to you've got to look at what's what's happening and and and make you know allowances for that. But I do think there's some very good buying opportunities now. and you know, there's probably never been a better time really to build buy we were looking at at at s Dupex sites a year ago that were that were selling for well over three million dollars in in say somewhere like Ride for an old house that people could build a Jupex on. You you could pick one up now for almost a million dollars less. Yeah. Yeah, so I think you're completely right, Mark. You know, someone someone who sees that opportunity, buys a property like that, gets his approvals for a duplex, builds a duplex. We're talking about 18 months time frame. In 18 months, where's the market going to be? It's a crystal ball, but you know, we have had a very resilient market in Sydney for a long time that has always come back. And I do think that people will see that and they will invest and they will build. And that's the that's the sophisticated buy we're still seeing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're still seeing people that can that can see that value. Yeah. You're both completely right. Hey, very interestingly, and I talking about another builder, the the owner of and sorry to bring them into this, but Stonewood Homes, John Chow, they're from New Zealand, but very interesting bloke. And he's a billionaire. And not that everyone wants to be a billionaire, but he's a billionaire. And I I got to have dinner with him a few times and I said to him, How did you, you know, get your wealth and all this sort of thing? And he said, his one simple rule is I always remember it when you know everyone else runs away from a fire. So he'd call this situation in their current economic state a fire. He goes, I run into it. That's when I buy property, that's when I invest. And I come out the other side so much better. I think you guys are completely right. I'm not saying everyone wants to be a billionaire, but everyone's gotta think about like when the market does recover and we all come back, it's all just gonna go like that. You might as well, if you can, get in, start looking at those projects. Like you said, projects in Ryan that are a million dollars down on a listing. You're not gonna see that. It's all gonna go. So I I think that was really Yeah, really, really interesting advice. And I think I I love the way you're looking at the market. I think there's some great opportunity out there. I couldn't agree more. Now I only have one question left for you guys, and this pod has been so super cool, as I said. didn't expect it. not because of anything else other than I I didn't, you know, know you guys so well and didn't know of your experience, but it was everything you've talked about is everything that I think that Builders and customers out there need to hear. It's been brilliant. But my last question for you guys is we know you know we're called the good builder. What would you say makes a good builder? I don't know who wants to go first. Mark? Well, I I think a a builder that that does what they say they're gonna do is the number one thing, you know. and look. In a in a situation like building a home over you know that period of time, things won't always go according to plan. But it's how the builder reacts to that. Yeah. And and how quickly he he d deals with it, I think is the is the critical thing. there are other things that I think paint a picture, like you look at the sites, you know, the the cleanliness of the sites, the way the waste is managed, the presentation, I think. is a is a sign of you know how the business is run. But I I think that the critical thing is, you know, that that that people are honest and fair income, they have the right intentions in their dealings and and do what they say they're gonna do. And I think I think that's the that that's the most important. I agree with with all of that. I I think, you know, to to judge a good builder when everything is going well is not right, you really need to learn how they react when there's a problem and how they really handle it. I think that's that's what it is. And I think you know, understanding the responsibility that we've taken on for the customer, I mean this is their biggest decision that they're typically gonna make financially in their life. And you know, it's what we touched on before. I think a good builder is someone that you trust with your own family's money, you know, and still feel comfortable to ring them if something goes wrong. Yeah, I think, you know, it being a good builder isn't about never having a problem. It's about what you do when you have one. Love it. I love it. I love it. Well, as I've been saying through this whole podcast, you two are good builders. Like I am blown away by the experience, the knowledge. I'm sorry I didn't have too much to say during that pod, everyone out there, but I was sitting here learning with all of you. Like that was one of the coolest pods that I've done. anyone in Sydney that's looking to build, we're going to put all the details below of these two gentlemen so you can go and have a look. Any developers that want to get in touch will do that too. But Gentlemen today, thank you so much for sharing your experience and knowledge. It we've never had builders that come from your your caliber and then are off now doing their own thing. So it was a real great insight into builders that have gone and done it somewhere else and helped businesses really grow and thrive. And you've worked for some amazing businesses and now you've got your own one that's growing and thriving. And as I as you said, growing you know, doubling. year on year for the last three years is pretty cool thing and all I can see is more of that happening because you guys have got a down part. thanks Aaron. Well I've really enjoyed having a chat to you as well. I mean we would love to do it again. if if we can help someone else out there with you know thank you with with all the years of of experience. I mean it's you can say you've had I I we I used to laugh Barney Barney Alum is is passed away now, but he was a great guy in and someone would say to him, I've had twenty years of experience, he'd say you've had one year of experience twenty times over. Yeah. Yeah. We can get like that. All be it all be I'll well I I'll never, ever challenge that gentleman, but things can be different each day for you guys though. We have learned a few things and if we can help some other guys that are coming through, by all means. Yeah, it's good. It's good to give back something. Thanks, Aaron. Thanks for the opportunity to to do that. Thanks for having us on. I think what you're doing is really good, mate. Yeah. No worries. Well I'll as I said, I'm coming down to Sydney in a couple of weeks. We'll probably Yeah this is gonna be pre recorded, so we'll we'll drop it next week. But I'll if you don't mind, I might give you guys a bell and drop by and do a quick video with you guys and say good day and reintroduce. Yeah, sure you can come to our office, mate. We'll go and we'll go and have the we'll go and have a steak. I love it. I think it's phenomenal what you guys do too. So thank you very much. yeah, for everyone there, I'll drop the links below. But you guys, absolute legends. I learned a lot. I'm sure everyone learned a lot. And there was just so much in there that was just so good for anyone to listen. I think it brings it back down to reality of building. Like I think you are the I'm gonna call you guys the foundation of the good builder. If you can do what you guys do, you are a good builder. Everyone needs to do that. I love it. So thank you. Thanks, Mike. Thank you. See you next time.