Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Can women tell the motte from the bailey | HBR Talk 349

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Can women tell the motte from the bailey | HBR Talk 349 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to HBr Talk three forty nine. Can
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Women tell the Mott from the Bailey? I am your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hannah Wallen, and I am here with Lauren Brooks. We
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: do not have a mic tonight is he is unavailable,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: but we still have have that blind spot to talk
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: about this one's this one's a little bit different. So
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I've noticed when debating some
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: of the things that the United States have been spending
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: money on with with other people on social media and
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: in person, is this habit of the Mott Bailey attack
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: where they look for and easy to defend, good reason
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: why this this spending is legit and it's not wrong
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: and so on, and they'll defend that, and they'll try
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: to avoid discussing the actual outcome of the spending. So
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: before I do anything else, I gotta make sure it's
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: showing the window I want it to show, which is
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: this image here and the reason that I want you
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: to see this. I know a lot of people already
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: know the Mott Bailey fallacy, but just to go over
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: it again, just because you know, we always get new
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: listeners and sometimes we also you know, people will forget
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: like what we've talked about before, and some of this
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: stuff is just if you're not thinking about it every day,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the terms kind of disappear from your head a little bit.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: So a Mott Bailey attack or a Mott Bailey argument.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: The description is modeled after this medieval design for communities,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: where these to have the highly defense castle or fortress,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: and then it would open up to or connect to
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: this less easily defended village, and you you have a
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: lot more people living comfortably spread out in the village.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: They got their own houses, they got their businesses and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: so on. But if the community is under attack, then
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: everybody wants to retreat to the fortress because that that
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: bailey is or that bailey is going to get burned.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: So the Mott Bailey attack. This this example is probably
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: going to be controversial for some people just because it's
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: about abortion. And I know the men's rights movements divided
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: on abortion, but I think there are there's a very
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: good way to explain this. The first argument here in
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the in the easy to defend mott is, you know,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: pregnancy can put a woman's life in danger, Abortion can
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: save lives. I think more people can agree with that
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: statement is yeah, well that's true, Okay, sometimes abortion is
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: medically necessary because the woman is going to die if
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: she doesn't have the abortion right. And there will be
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you'll get a larger number of people who will accept
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: that as a valid pro abortion argument that, okay, in
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: those circumstances it needs to be legal, right than you
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: will with abortion for any reason at any time. There
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: will be some people would be like, well, wait a minute, now,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: we don't agree with that, right, So you can't. It's
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: harder to defend abortion for any reason at any time
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: than it is to defend Sometimes abortion is medically necessary
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: because pregnancy can put a woman's life in danger, and usually,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: you know, the argument then comes goes back and forth
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: between actually the reasons that that can happen are rare,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and there a lot of them are preventable and so on.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So you have this back and forth even with the
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: defensible argument.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: See, I come at it from a little bit of
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: a different angle. I I take the point of you know, yes,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: pregnancy can be dangerous.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: You need to be aware of the dangers of it.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And before you get pregnant, exactly right, and and if
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  Speaker 2: you choose it, you go into it knowing willingly that
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: this is something that could happen, and I still don't
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: agree that it's you know that, listen, it's it's a
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: great it's definitely a gray area, you know.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I think, however, most most pro life activists when they
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: when they look at this argument there, they will settle
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  Speaker 1: on a very specific litmus. Is the question, uh, the
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: baby lives or the mom lives, or is the question
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: the mom and the baby die or just the baby dies,
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  Speaker 1: Because if it's the latter, most people are going to
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  Speaker 1: be like, well, we're gonna prevent one death at least,
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  Speaker 1: which is where I stand on it, because in most circumstances,
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  Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of circumstances. In fact, it's incredibly rare
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  Speaker 1: anymore where you're choosing between the life of the mother
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: and the life of the baby at this point, because
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  Speaker 1: we are able to deliver prematurely effectively so well and
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  Speaker 1: in so many cases, it's almost a moot point to
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  Speaker 1: argue mom or baby. And so that's kind of my
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: thinking on it. But I know there are people that
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  Speaker 1: would argue that, and yeah, I just I know my
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: situation when I was in labor with my son and
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: they had had made one cut for the sea section
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: and he was such a little chunk that they couldn't
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: get him out, like they were pushing on my belly
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and they had a hold of you know, the way
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: they get a hold of the baby is they put
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: their hands under the baby's shoulders and the thumbs go
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: over the shoulders and they're not pulling on the head
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: because you know, obviously that could be very dangerous and damaging.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: And they're trying to gently wrestle him out of there,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and they tried like three times, and then they're like,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: all right, guys, this is our last chance. And they
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: didn't say to get him out without making another cut.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: So my half panicked mind heard my baby's gonna die.
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  Speaker 1: And I tried to talk and I threw up all
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: over everything because I was like, no, this is not
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  Speaker 1: your last fucking chance. Cut my legs off. If you
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: have to get him out alive, you needn't do that.
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  Speaker 3: That's my baby.
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  Speaker 1: And I think most women I have that, yeah, you know,
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  Speaker 1: sense of it's your baby. But there are those circumstances
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  Speaker 1: where and then there's also a circumstance that a lot
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  Speaker 1: of pro lifers don't like to acknowledge. And it's also
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: an incredibly rare circumstance where the pregnancy fails and miscarries
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  Speaker 1: but doesn't expel the dead fetus. The body doesn't expel
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  Speaker 1: the dead and they have to go in and get it,
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  Speaker 1: and that's considered an abortion also, And it's really tricky
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  Speaker 1: that pro abortion advocates will use that argument as a
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: pro abortion argument. And you know, I'm like, look, if
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: that's the situation, yes, of course you don't let a
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  Speaker 1: woman die because there's a dead baby riding inside of her, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: But that doesn't justify killing a life baby, does it. No?
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  Speaker 1: And like, so people are tricky with these kind of
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: and when it comes to abortion, it's really stark and
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  Speaker 1: easy to see people get really tricky with that, right.
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  Speaker 1: You know, at the other end of it, you have
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  Speaker 1: people who, you know, how we can argue at most
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  Speaker 1: people can agree that the scientific criteria for life shouldn't
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  Speaker 1: be different for a circumstance because we want an outcome.
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  Speaker 1: It's the same you know, for for this every circumstance.
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  Speaker 1: It's got to be standard or we start going down
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  Speaker 1: a pathway of uh, making unethical choices. Right, and the
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: legal standard for murder and homicide shouldn't change just because
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: we feel bad about the circumstances that an individual has,
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  Speaker 1: Like it's not an insurmountable circumstance, we just feel bad
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  Speaker 1: about it. And so, you know, we have those arguments,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: those are fair arguments, and those are a good a
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: good mot But then you also have some people and
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: it's a it's much more rare in the pro life
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  Speaker 1: movement that will argue that if a person is fertile,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: if a girl woman is fertile, a girl is fertile,
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  Speaker 1: that that means her body is ready to handle pregnancy.
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  Speaker 1: And there are times when children have been molested and
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  Speaker 1: gotten pregnant, and being able to conceive doesn't necessarily mean
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  Speaker 1: that a child's body is going to carry a baby
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  Speaker 1: and the baby's gonna live, and the child's gonna live,
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  Speaker 1: and everything's gonna be medically okay, even though it's not
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  Speaker 1: morally okay. And so it's it becomes a touchy subject
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  Speaker 1: arguing that circumstance, and that's really not a good response
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  Speaker 1: to when they use child molestation as a pro abortion argument.
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  Speaker 1: But I've heard that response to that argument. So there's
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  Speaker 1: a lot there that you know, these these Mott Bailey's
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  Speaker 1: are pretty blatant and obvious, and you can detect them
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  Speaker 1: and you can sort of fight them and everything, but
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  Speaker 1: there are times when it becomes muddied, subtle, cloudy, and
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  Speaker 1: I feel like the stuff that we've been talking about
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: it sort of falls into that category. Right, how can
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: you possibly be against feeding the hungry? Well, we didn't
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: say we were against feeding the hungry. We said we
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: were against making giving women a monopoly on access so
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: that if it's men who are hungry, they have to
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: do what women say or starve. So that's what we're
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: going to get into today. But before we get into that,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: we do have to do we gotta do. As always,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Honey Badger Radio dishes out a mortgage board of thought
• 11:06
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• 11:10
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• 11:22
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• 11:44
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• 11:46
  Speaker 1: which is why you should further provoke the thought police
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: by tracking our thought provoking discussions on Honeybadger Brigade dot com,
• 11:55
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• 11:57
  Speaker 1: as well as a link to feed the Badger dot
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: com in the dropped down menu at the top of
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the page. So I wonder like one of Jen Bottle
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  Speaker 1: has kind of pointed out inadvertently another Mott Bailey argument.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: It's not exactly a Mott Bailey are it's kind of
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: a misdirection argument to people use right. He says, my
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: grandmother died giving birth to my mother. It was an
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  Speaker 1: actual choice mother or baby in my mother's relatives took
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  Speaker 1: the Catholic solution of the time nineteen twenty three. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So what I will point out is we've had one
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: hundred years of medical advancements since then, and the things
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: that caused that choice, the scope and spectrum of things
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: that caused that choice to happen to be necessary, has
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  Speaker 1: dramatically shrink over that point in time, of shrunk out
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  Speaker 1: over that amount of time, like to the degree that
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  Speaker 1: it is. It almost never happens that the choice is
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  Speaker 1: mother versus baby. The choice is almost always mother and
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  Speaker 1: baby or just baby. And it's a heartbreaking choice, but
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  Speaker 1: you know, just not the same as either or there's
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  Speaker 1: no there's no reason to let the mother die unless
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: you have this weird fatalist well, if you're gonna die,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: godmit you to die. Which I've actually heard that argument too,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: and I think it's bullshit. But we'll get into the
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: thing we're going to get into today, and I'm going
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: to introduce this by pointing out, yes, this is an
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: old story, right, this is this story itself. We're all
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: familiar with it. We've done a couple of episodes on it.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: We mentioned this at the very beginning of our our
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: episode on proxy violence, which is ancient history, ancient honey
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Badger history rights.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: It was.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I can't remember whether it was before or after I
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: started using music in the openers, but it was when
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I was still making opening videos, and so most people
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: are familiar with the story. But I'm going to go
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: over briefly the details here. This was the girl. Girl's
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: name was Michelle Carter h and her boyfriend was suicidal
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: and there were weeks and weeks of text messages back
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: and forth between the two of them in which he
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: disclosed all kinds of mental health experiences, depression, anxiety, fear,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: you know, you name it, and he was he was
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: dealing with it, and you know, back and forth, he
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: had talked about suicide, and she finally got fed up.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Instead of talking to an adult and saying, hey, this
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: is a serious issue and you know, going going to
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: get him some help, she really got fed up with
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: him and started pushing him to do it, and ultimately
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: he did. And the worst part of her behavior was
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: he was texting with her during the suicide because he
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: committed suicide by parking his truck, running it, putting a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: hose from the tailpipe into the like into the which
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of people think that that's going to be painless,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: but it's not. Just having personally experienced oxygen deprivation from
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: from anaphylactic shock and severe asthma attacks, it's not painless,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: and it's not uh, it scares the shit out of you.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: It's terrifying to go through that. Even when you're not
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: suffocating because you can't breathe, it's still terrifying to have
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: oxygen cut off from your brain. So uh. And then
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the other thing is with exhaust like that. He had
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: to have been in a high temperature environment. So he
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: was not just scared because you know, he knew what
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: he was doing. He had to also have been scared
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: because he was experiencing the actual symptoms of oxygen deprivation
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and he was probably overheated significantly. There was a very
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable death and this. At one point he got out
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: of the truck and told her he could couldn't go
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: through with it, he was scared, and she ordered him
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: to get back in. So this wasn't just a simple
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: set of communications where she sympathized with his reasons or
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: you know, I understand and didn't understand what's happening, but
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: you know, understanding how he felt, and blah blah. No,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like that. This this chick ruthlessly pressured this
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: young man until he went through with the suicide that
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: she thought he wanted, and that was.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: That was it.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: He was gone. And then she got worried about it
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: like she knew she had done something wrong, and you
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: could tell because she started talking with other people as
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: if she didn't know what happened when she actually did.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think she realized his text messages were going
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: to get examined.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Idiot, right, what an idiot?
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: So her defense in court was that she was also
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: depressed and that her medication that she was on Selesa
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: targets the brain's frontal lobe controls decision making and empathy,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: and that she had a similar personal struggle going on.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Didn't argue necessarily that that she wasn't responsible for what
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: he did because uh, it was it was all his decision.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: She He argued that she wasn't responsible for what she
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: did because she was drugged, all right, Like that's that
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: was That was the mean. Even the attorney for the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: defense did not make the argument this paper is about
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: to make that we're going to look at here, right,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: So the obvious, the obvious bailey here is that just
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: because she bullied him into suicide doesn't mean she's responsible
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: for the suicide. The bailey is the behavior she actually
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: engaged in telling him to commit suicide and making that
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: the sort of their relationship in the moment of she
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: was the almost like the dominatrix in that moment, guiding
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: him through it. So the research paper we're looking at
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: is titled death by Text, Morality, Manipulation and Murder in
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: the Michelle Carter Case. And I'm not sure the way
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: this is. This has got a volume number but not
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: a date on it. But it's from this year, so
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: it has to have been, if not this past month,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: it has to have been January or February. So it's
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: a fairly new article written about this, right, And this
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is by mld Ryles or Rills, College of Liberal Arts.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: This is from Polytechnic University, so you know it's going
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: to be something piece of work from California. And we'll
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: look first at the abstract because I think you guys
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: can spot the difference between the and the Bailey just
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: from this right. According to news reports, in twenty fourteen,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: through text messages, Michelle Carter directed Conrad Roy to die
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: by suicide. Finding Michelle guilty of the involuntary involuntary manslaughter,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the judge said she had a duty to call the police.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: The mediated narrative of the Carter case so they're now
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: she's now all already referring to the facts of the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: case as a mediated narrative, right, like this literally happened.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: The text messages are right there in black and white.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: You can read them. We really aren't if I don't
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: have to, I'm not gonna subject you guys to that.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: But they're they're there, and if you want to see them.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: In the low bar of this video, you can find
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: a link to the article we were just looking at.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: And in that article it has some of the text
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: messages listed and it also has a link to the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: whole set of text messages that was entered into evidence
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: in the case, so you can actually read it for yourself.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: They went down a rabbit hole. Like at the beginning
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: of the rabbit hole was I feel crappy, And at
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: the end of the rabbit hole was her telling him
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: to die?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think for my sanity, I'm gonna need
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: to stay away from that.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's one of those like it just hurt to read,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: you know, especially his side of it, because you just
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: saw and from the perspective of someone who has been
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: in that sort of dark cave. You get stuck, you
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: get tunnel vision when you're suicidal. Yeah, And like everything
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: that could help you is on the outside of the tunnel,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: and everything that could hurt you is to the back,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: to the direction you're facing away from in the tunnel,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: and it leaves suicide feeling like it's the light at
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the end of the tunnel, and it's really not. It's
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: absolutely not, but it really at that time feels like
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: none of the other options are real. And if you
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: don't have someone in your court to save you, or
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: you don't have something in your life that breaks through
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: those walls, like for me, it was at the last minute,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I got this mental image of my parents finding my body,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: and I couldn't do it because I knew what would happen,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: the pain that they would go through, and I couldn't
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: inflict that pain on them. So then I had to
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: start thinking about what else can I do in this situation,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: because it was situational and not just a chemical imbalance,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: And you know, like I didn't necessarily pick the best solution,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: but I didn't. I didn't kill myself. So obviously, because
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: I'm here talking to you guys, and I don't think
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I'm a ghost, it is possible that I that I
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: died in the summer of nineteen eighty five. And you
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: know this is all purgatory. I don't think so well.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: That was the best decision, you know that that part
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: was a good decision.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Just what I did afterwards was not a good decision.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: There was another decision I could have made.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: It was better.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: We'll just leave it at that. Although it did work,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: it did put a stop to the situation. But in
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: this instance, you know, this is a girl who's listening
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: to a guy go down that path from depression to
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: despondents to suicidality. And instead of you know, talking about
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: help or talking to someone who could help and figuring
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: out ways to lift him up and out of that
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: situation and lift herself up and out of that situation,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: she went down the path with him and you know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: like holding his hand the whole time, and encouraged every
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: wrong way of thinking that strengthens the walls of that tunnel.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: And then and of course again we know the result.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So this this abstract, the mediated narrative, like that's that's
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: a bullshit one right there, right, The mediated narrative of
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: the Carter case criminalizes girls virtual communication by insisting Conrad
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: was driven to suicide by the machinations of a selfish
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: and calculating girl. This article considers the stakes of Michelle's
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: mediated construction for how we account for white teenage femininity
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: adult concerns about young people's communication and mental health in
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: the midst of technology. So what's she saying there? All right,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: it's great at the beginning, the mediated narrative we covered
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: that criminalizes girl's virtual communication. Right, there's the there's the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: mott No, no, no, it's not It wasn't about what
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: she said to him and what impact that had and
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: what her intentions were in saying that to him. It's
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: not about the way that she carefully guided him through
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: the process and coached him and pushed him to do it. No,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it's because text messages were the vehicle. So you can't
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: you imagine have an adult that an adult woman goes
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: and finds herself a teenage boy. Right, But she's in
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Wisconsin, and and he's in US Louisiana.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: So she drives down to Louisiana and her little hatchback
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and picks him up and then drives him back to Wisconsin. Right,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: she gets arrested for transporting a minor across state lines.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: With several states for illicit purposes, and some some dipshit
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: creates a research paper about the state's objection to women drivers,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: and it's totally about the fact that she she drives
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: the hatchback. Guys, has nothing to do with what she
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: was gonna do to that boy. Jesus, Like, it's obviously
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: ridiculous when you talk about it like that, right, Yeah,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: but this person expected to be taken seriously, pretending the
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: problem was that the state felt that she shouldn't have
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: texted him. She goes on, I placed the Carter story
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: with a long history of efforts within news media to
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: demonize teen girls for not acting proper and acting proper femininity. Right,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: there's another We have a couple of mots here, right,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: First is the oh, it was about the texts. It
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: was because the vehicle for her abuse was text messages. Right,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: And then we have it was the vehicle was was
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: that she was unfeminine. It wasn't about the fact that
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: she was directly encouraging him to commit suicide. It was
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: because it's unfeminine. She wasn't nurturing enough, she didn't take
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: care of him. Yeah, I argue here, Yeah, go ahead.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna say so, so women are not responsible enough
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: to own cell phones?
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Is that?
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Is that what we're getting from the will take away?
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: If a woman, If you can just deflect to the
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: vehicle for the woman's abusive behavior, the abuse doesn't matter.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wasn't mean or bad.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't shoot him. You know, you just have something
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: against baseball bats. Yeah, you know what, And then the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: writer says, I argue that framing Michelle is lacking normative
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: feminine caretaking skills and situating text messages as a murder
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: weapon contributes to cultural anxiety concerning girls connection with communication technologies.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: So what's she what's she telling you? There? I am
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: going to ignore the behavior that she engaged in, and
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk only about the feminist concept of
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: gender roles. Hey, yep, the feminist concept of gender roles
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: and the method of communication she used for the emotional
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: abuse that she engaged in. Like, and we buy this shit.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: People buy the shit, people accept Oh yeah, this is
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: obviously the problem wasn't that she told him to kill herself,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: kill himself. It was that she used a text message
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: from a phone to do it.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she didn't use a carrier pigeon.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: What the hell she wasn't right there whispering in his
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: ear and putting the hose in the truck. She just
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: put so much social pressure on him that he did it.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: That he went through and did it right, Like this
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: is this is because when I saw this, when I
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: initially saw this, all I could see was this abstract
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: and I was just like, we have to get the
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: rest of this, because holy fuck. So it goes on.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Were you gonna speak again?
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: No, okay, I'm just taking aim back.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It is upsetting.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: In June twenty fourteen, eighteen year old Conrad Roy died
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: from carbon monoxide poisoning in a pickup truck outside Kmart
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: in Fairhaven, Massachusetts. According to yet this story is so
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: old that Kmart wasn't bankrupt yet.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: According to news reports, using manipulative text messages, Conrad's girlfriend,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Michelle Carter, convinced him to end his life there. She
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: had to admit what happened there. She convinced him to
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: end his life as Conrad attempted to delay his plans.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Michelle's texts reportedly, and this is this is where we're
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: getting into weazel words again. Reportedly became more aggressively insistent.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: All right, you can see the text messages. She went
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: from you know, just discussing it with him to I
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: don't believe you keep saying you're gonna do it. Why
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: haven't you done it yet? And it's quoted here. You
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: keep pushing it off and you say I'll do it,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: but you never do. It's always going to be that
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: way if you don't take action. H right, not Maybe
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: it's not what you really want. Maybe we should think
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: about something else. Maybe you should talk to your family
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: about this. Maybe you should talk to someone at school
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: about this. Maybe you can talk to my parents. There's
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: a million things that she could have said. You know,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: let's let's try to have some fun and see if
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: that helps you feel better. Anything, But.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, why haven't you done it yet?
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Get off the pot?
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, And I'm sorry, I do not remember the
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: outcome of this case.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Did did she.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Get off or she convicted? The judge did not buy
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: her bullshit because the text messages were so aggressive like that,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: and it was so blatant that it was impossible for
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the judge to just excuse. And I think I don't
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: remember whether she had a jury or not. But yeah,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: you when you saw the text messages, and I went
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: through and read the text messages, which, like I said,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: it hurt to read. You know that from the perspective
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: of this is what this guy went through at the
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: end of his life, and it just it just it
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: makes you angry. It's it's hard to explain, but you
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: just you see that from from the perspective of someone
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: who broke out of that tunnel, and it's just like
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: it's like watching somebody cut off somebody's legs. Yeah, and
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: then hearing some other people say, well, you know, this
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: individual wanted to be handicapped. It wasn't her fault. She
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: grabbed an axe and cut his legs off. She knew
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: that's what he wanted, right.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: So the after the quote it goes on, Michelle's texts
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: reportedly became more aggressively insistent. Michelle texted on on the
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: day Conrad died, you keep pushing it off and you'll
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: do it. Say you do do it, but you never do.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: It's always going to be that way if you don't
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: take action. When Conrad reportedly got out of his idling
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: vehicle because he was feeling scared, Michelle allegedly told him
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to get back in here she gets again allegedly. All right,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: now this is being written after the conviction. Okay, all right,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: so I'm going to go back to this article. All right.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: The day the article was published was in twenty seventeen.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: I was updated in twenty seventeen, so it was published
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: before summer of twenty seventeen. This gives you all of
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: the information. We are in. The actual incident happened to
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, so this is three years after the incident,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: about the time it takes for the case to pan out.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: We are in twenty twenty five. All right, it's been
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: almost ten years since this article was last updated, much
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: less published. So unless it took more than ten years
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: to get this like this was written and then didn't
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: get published for more than ten years, which you know,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: it was published this year twenty twenty five, Women's Studies
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: in Communications, volume forty eight, number one, fifty five to
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: seventy two. Like that information was clearly available. Yeah, she
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: had at her fingertips the text message. There's no need
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: for an allegedly anything. And the text message telling him
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: to get back in the vehicle is in the group
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: of text messages. It's right there in black and white.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: You can read it. When he reportedly got out of
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: his idling vehicle because he was feeling scared, Michelle allegedly
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: told him to get back in as if the question
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: that these bits of evidence are in question. Right, This
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: is how feminists lie to you. They don't Oh no,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: this didn't happen. This has never happened. Shit that never happened,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: dot JP right. No, They insert phrases and words indicating
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: that the evidence isn't real when it is clear and present.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Is that not gas lighting? Is that not also gaslighting?
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: I would consider that gas lighting?
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Yep, I would think.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: So, geez, so are evil?
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, before we get further. No, that's not even from
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: this is from a previous so I'm not sure. I
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: think these may have come through after after HBr News.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I better read them. So Marenith g gave us five
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: dollars and said, HBr News four ninety six is a
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: zombie night three D printed knife of a shive. These
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: are we were talking about weapons that are outlawed in
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: the UK. It's kind of ironic actually, given that you know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: one of the rants I went on that night was
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: there is no weapon that you can outlaw that will
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: prevent people from engaging in violence against other people. And
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I want to remind you that the first time we
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: talked about this case, when it was in the news,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: before the conviction, before the hearing and everything, we talked
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: about if this is true, if the evidence that we
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: were seeing come out in the news at the time
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: was solid and proven to be real, that that's proxy violence.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: She got him to do violence against himself. And we
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: were talking about proxy violence in the episode that we
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: discussed the case in and she didn't need a knife
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: or a gun or you know, any kind of blunt object.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: She just needed words. Yeah, she's needed access to his mind.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Oh and or a shiv okayn three D printed knife
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: for a shive. Okay. Richard Beer gave us five dollars
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: and said so. Yesterday in Texas, there was an incident
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: at a high school track championship meet that will likely
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: be made into The American Version of Adolescents by Netflix. Apparently,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: one seventeen year old senior was stabbed by another seventeen
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: year old senior who was getting football scholarship offered from
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: multiple colleges. The dispute apparently was over a seat in
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: the stadium.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Jesus.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like the internet is just talk.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: This is all that they're talking about now because it
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: was a black kid that killed a white student, and
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: you know, it's it's just it's all it's.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: The race thing, right, they can they can point to race.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And you know, I was thinking about it as I
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: was listening to different people talk about the situation today,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: and you know, not only is it just a distraction
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: from everything else that's going on politically, things that affect everyone, right,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: but it's also just another example of male disposability, right,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: because if it was a white on white crime, they
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: wouldn't care. And it's it's you know, just who cares.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: It's just a male child that's killed. Whatever it happens,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you know, move on, same thing if it was just
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: two black kids, right, But no, they because it is
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: a black one white crime, they are using the race,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: the race of these kids, and that's what that is
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: the main focus. It's like, no, let's can we can
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: we just put down the race thing and and focus
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: on the fact that there's a child that lost his life. Yeah,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: but no, you know, it's it's it's disappointing to say
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the least, but ye.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Might end up having to talk about that next week
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: because this is you know there there will be more
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: information out, yeah by then. And but but this looks
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: like was this conflict over the scholarship or just over
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: the seat?
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: No, it seems to have been just over the seat, right.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: So the the and I hate because.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: I don't know the other kid's name.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: One of them is named I forget, I forget both
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: of their names at this point.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: But the white kid like picked up a book.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Bag of the black kid, and and you know, basically
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: it was like argument over a seat, right, like, you
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: can't sit here and I'm gonna move your stuff. And
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: so it seemed it doesn't seem plausible the way it's
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: being described, because why would then the next reaction be
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: to go and stab the other kid in the chest?
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't make sense there. There's obviously there's details that.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Aren't aren't that are missing right now, but you know
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: everyone is talking about it, and.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: You know, what's really sad, what's what's really at heart there?
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Then you end up you have to question the environment
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: at the school mm hmm. You know, and that's in
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: the United States. One of the biggest problems is the
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: school environment. It's it's actually not creating a space where
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: students can just safely, uh socialize with each other and
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: learn and prepare themselves for adulthood. It's creating a huge
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: area of conflict and other issues where the students aren't safe.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: And it's not just because they get into fights with
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: each other. It's because the teachers are manipulating them psychologically
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: and pulling all kinds of shit on them. The curriculum
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: is bad. They're not getting taught what they should be
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: getting taught, and they are getting indoctrinated with things that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: are not true that they should not be getting indoctrinated with.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: And in the meantime, they're not being provided with any
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: conflict management skills at all, which is essential to going
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: transitioning from adolescence to adulthood. Childhood adolescents and adolescents to adulthood,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: like those, conflict managing skills make a huge difference in
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: whether or not that you're employable, whether or not whether
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: or not you go down a criminal path. Right, I
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: like this this happened, But yeah, we'll definitely have to
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: look more into this, maybe next week.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're they're even going so far as
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: to blame the fathers, specifically the father's right, well, where's
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: where's the fathers of these children?
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: And why is it? Then? It's it's it deserves a show,
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: It definitely does.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's kind of It's kind of ironic today
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: also when usually the people that are demanding to know
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: where the father, where's the father? Where's the father are
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: the same ones that push back against people who push
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: for equally shared parenting rights following divorce and making it
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: difficult to to get a divorce and encouraging girls to
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: not have children outside of wedlock and you stay with
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: their partner and raise the child with their partner instead.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, So there you go.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: You know whis which? Which way do you want it?
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Do you want to complain about the dads when when
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: this this kind of shit happens, or do you want
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: to push back against people that want to make sure
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: the dads have custody of the children and can actually
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: provide the nurturing care they need in order to develop
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: those conflict management skills.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: So, interestingly, though, in this situation, I don't think I
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: remember anybody asking where was her father? Where was his father.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: In the the Michelle Carter case, where she uh and
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: where she she talks uh Conrad Roy into suicide. This
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: was this was all basically about, well, she's a girl,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: she's not guilty. Mm hmm. Right, so it's pointed out here.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Let's see where were we. Michelle, who was seventeen at
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: the time of Conrad's death, was charged in February twenty
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: fifteen with involuntary manslaughter. The district attorney argued that Michelle
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: strongly influenced Conrad's decision to take his own life and
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: encouraged him to die by suicide and guided him in
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: his engagement of activities which led to his death. When
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: the juvenile court judge pronounced Michelle guilty, he said she
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: had a duty to call the police or Conrad's family,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: but instead listen to listened on the phone as he died.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: So that was part of what he said, but there
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: was a lot more because he did describe in detail
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: the set of behaviors step by step that she engaged
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: in one after another, of leading him down the path
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: of suicide, pushing him to commit suicide. Even mentioned the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: fact that she ordered him back into the truck after
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: he got out. But all this individual puts in her
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: paper it's about the duty to call the police or
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Conrad's family, as if she just happened to stumble upon
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: this situation and didn't take action to save him as
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: a seventeen year old, which if that had been the case,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: there still could have been arguments for, you know, why
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: didn't you call somebody, Why didn't you do something? But
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: it can be argued in that instance that you know,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: a seventeen year old might panic and not do the
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: right thing because they're they're panicked. But then that does happen,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: all right, That's that happens in all kinds of emergencies
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: with people. But this wasn't that kind of situation. She
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: didn't just stumble across it. She was there for the
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: whole thing. She knew the whole time that this was happening,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: and she was part of making it happen. Michelle Michelle
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: began a prison sentence in February twenty nineteen. She was
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: released early for good behavior in January twenty twenty, so
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: she served just under a year and is currently serving
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: five years on probation and accusing Michelle of encouraging Conrad
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: to die. By suicide, not following through on her quote
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: duty to call the police end quote, causing Conrad's death,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: and she did put that in scare quotes. The legal
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: system framed Michelle as responsible again in scare quotes. Right,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: when a woman does something responsible gets scare quotes around it,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: guys for Conrad's death. Engaging state forces in this way
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: situates this entire case as operating within the carsoral state.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: The very fact that Michelle served time suggests this case
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: must be processed through the mechanisms of the legal system.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Like what's she saying there? When you think about this?
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: So we go back to the in accusing Michelle of
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: encouraging Conrad to die by suicide? Right, accusing Michelle of
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: encouraging Conrad to die by suicide? Would you would you
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: say that saying to him? After months and months of
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: encouraging statements of if this is what you want to do,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: it's what you should do, and so on, you keep
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: pushing it off, and you say and say you'll do it,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: but you never do. It's always going to be that
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: way if you don't take action. Do you think that
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: constitutes accusing Conrad to die byce or accusing encouraging Conrad
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: to die by suicide. Oh yeah, so do you think
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: accusing is an unfair way of describing that situation?
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Of course not, of course not. I mean, Jesus Christ,
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: you know this.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: This is a perfect example of why we say to
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: young men, don't be vulnerable to women. Don't tell them,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: don't tell them how you feel, you know, don't, don't
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: don't get involved with them.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, don't get involved with them emotionally.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: You can't really stop some guys from doing that, but
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: do not let your guard down around these women, because
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: they will take your weakness and use it against you.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This is also I always say, don't stick your
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: dicking crazy, right. Yeah. We don't know if these people,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: these these two were sexually active or anything like that,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: but they.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Don't even need to have been.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Now, I don't know one than anything in the text
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: messages that I saw that indicated it. But what what
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: I'm pointing out here is she was on a medication
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: for mental health problems as well. One of the things
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: that happens with if you have depression and anxiety disorders,
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of times you're more comfortable around other people
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: with the same disorders. But there's a feedback loop that
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: happens with that. So if you're depressed and you're hanging
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: out with somebody that's depressed, you don't. It's harder for
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: you to make each other feel better than it is
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: for you to make each other feel comfortable being unmotivated
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: and wallowing in the depression instead of fighting it. Yeah,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and it makes it harder to recover. Right, So obviously
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's a little bit of a misdirection there
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: her in accusing Michelle of encouraging in quotes right.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: Exactly what she did.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Again, this is how feminists lie to you, right. She
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: put the actual reality of what happened. Michelle encouraged Conrad
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: to die by suicide. She framed it as a false accusation.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: The thing that actually happened, that there is demonstrable evidence
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: in black and white, everybody can see this is real.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: She framed that as a false allegation. And then the
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: the duty to call police is not unique to women.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: If let's say if my husband, who is the maintenance
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: guy at our apartment complex, since the factory that he
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: was working in clothes due to COVID. But say let's
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: say he goes into somebody's somebody's apartment and he sees
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: rock solid evidence that they've broken into neighboring apartments and
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: stolen shit. Right, he's got a duty to report, he
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: especially if you know, like he sees them do it,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: he's got a duty to report. If if if if
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: a guy is walking down the street and he sees
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: somebody jimmying the lock to get into a window of
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: somebody's home, and it's pretty obvious that that individual does
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: not live in that house, like he maybe he knows
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: the people that lives there live there, and he knows
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: that guy's not one of them, and so he knows
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: the guy's going to burglarize the house, or at least
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: he's breaking into the house. You witness a crime you
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: and you don't report it, you can be charged as
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: an accessory to that crime. If you see your friends
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: sell drugs to one of your other friends and those
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: drugs just happen to be illegal, still, right, Maybe your
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: friend sells a prescription medication that isn't his prescription or
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: the other person's prescription and hands over the pills for
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: the money, and you see that happen. If the cops
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: can prove that you saw it and did not tell them,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: you can be charged as an accessory. And that kind
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: of criminal charge gets levied against men and women all
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: the time to get them to testify against perpetrators of
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: crimes that the police are having a hard time nailing.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: So this is this idea that duty to report you
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: call the police is a uniquely feminine characteristic. Again, it's
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: bullshit and putting that duty the word duty in quotes
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: like what's she's full of duty? And again we see
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: the active word here causing Conrad's death put into quotes,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: and again when we're talking about a woman responsible gets
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: scare quotes right. Engaging state forces in this way situates
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: the entire case is operating with a within the carceral state.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: And the very fact that Michelle's served time suggests this
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: case must be processed through the mechanisms of legal system,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: meaning we now have to criticize the criminal justice system
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: because it actually took action against this woman, this girl,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: for using for using emotional abuse as a weapon of
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: attack against this guy. And I think this right here
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: that I have highlighted is the crux. This is why
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: she wrote this paper. If the state holds women accountable
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: for causing suicide by using emotional abuse. Women are in
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: deep shit? Can you Manhattan? Think of how many times
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: it has made the news that a man committed suicide
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: because of emotional abuse by his ex during a custody battle.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, too many to count.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: The one that really comes to mind first is Thomas Ball.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: He self immolated. He set himself on fire in front
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: of the courthouse. M His daughter has talked about that
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: since in its heartbreaking to listen to her because again,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: it's you know, and there's no secret. I was a
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: daddy's girl growing up.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: My dad meant a lot to me, means a lot
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: to me, even in death, and it's traumatic to lose
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: your dad at all. It's traumatic to lose your mom.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: It's traumatic to lose any loved one, and and to
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: lose them to a trauma that they experienced and to
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: know that it was scary, painful and that they had
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: no escape from it is horrifying and as an adult
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: it causes nightmares. Right, this kid went through it when
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: she was a kid.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine, you know, his end of it, like
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: having your child taken away from you, just not being
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: not knowing if your kid was safe, not being able
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: to do the nurturing that you need to do to
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: make sure your kid has the tools that she needs
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: to grow up and live life happily and effectively and
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: be part of her community and all that. Like, everything
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: that he went through as a parent in that situation
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: is horrifying, right. And you know, when we talked about
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: that situation and we talked about the tool of abuse
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: that that browbeating and gas lighting and emotional battery basically
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: was taking place in the court system. Was his wife
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: trying to his ex wife trying to prevent him from
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: spending time with his child and to bankrupt him and
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: so on. You know, Feminists talked about it like we
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: were just mad about a guy having to take financial
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: responsibility for his kid, you know. And mac Macney, I think,
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: was the other one, Chris Macney, who wrote this gut
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: wrenching letter when he committed suicide, and it just again
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: it was blatantly obvious from his responses that his death
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: was caused by emotional abuse perpetrated by his ex wife
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: and her family and what happened, Feminists talked about it
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: as a reverse right. He was emotionally abusing them by
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: killing himself and complaining about their behavior in his suicide letter.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: Wow yep, wow wow wow.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, really, what's it gonna take for the courts
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: to really take parental alienation as seriously as as the
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: outcomes tend to be? You know, because I guarantee you
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: if it was women who were offering themselves because they
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: didn't have access to their children, it would be a
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: national emergency.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: It's probably it's probably not gonna happen until you get
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: a turnover in the state to where instead of Democrats
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: or Republicans, you get populists running the system because Democrats
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: and Republicans both have framework that they put around these
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: stories where they they don't. Instead of instead of looking
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: at the people involved in the case as fallible human
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: beings with weaknesses and strengths and the potential for good
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: intentions and bad intentions, and value to their child and
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: value as human beings within the community and so on,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: they have scripts. Both sides have the deadbeat dad script, right,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: the left has the sainted single mother script, and the
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: right has the martyred single mother script. And so they're
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: not going to they're not going to recognize that parental
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: alienation is emotional abuse of the child and the other parent.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: They're gonna even in cases where the mother is being alienated,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: because when you get to a point where a father
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: has custody and he's, uh, he's got it to the
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: point where he can get away with engaging in parental alienation,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: you know, most most people are aware of how hard
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: it is for a dad to get custody in the
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: first place. So the assumption is that this must be
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: a really bad mother, and in a lot of instances
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: that's correct. Once in a blue moon, the reality is,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: you know, in some some backwater system, the dad has
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: a bunch of wealth coming from other family members or
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: some some other location, and the mom has very little wealth.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: Or there's family politics where the dad comes from a
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: highly recognized family and the mom comes from a nobody family.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: But that's a rare situation, right, and it's becoming increasingly
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: rare because of the feminist jurisprudence that judges are subjected
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: to where they have to like even if the dad
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: is from a highly respected family in the community and
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: the mom is from a family that most of the
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: people in the family have gotten into trouble for something
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: they still have to favor her, right, So it's becoming
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: more and more of a mostly that the fathers are
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: the ones getting alienated. It does occasionally happen to women, though,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: and it might be that it's going to be a
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: case like that, particularly where the woman is young and
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: something about her makes the public more likely to sympathize
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: with her and stuff like that. Then then maybe maybe
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: they'll figure out the parental alienation is bad. But at
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: this point it's hard to expect that. Yeah, so this
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: goes on. The Carter case received swift and significant media attention,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: largely because all communication between Carter and Roy was via
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: text message and phone calls, which meant a conviction would
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: be rooted solely in Michelle's virtual actions. And this is
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: she's citing research La Palm twenty eighteen, page fourteen forty four,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: so this was in a book that she's read. This
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: now I want to point something out. The reason that
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: the case received swift and significant media intention is this
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: is the first time there's been a case where the
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: suicide that has got and blamed on online bullying was
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: a boy who died at the behest of a female bully.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: Like in the past, there have been instances, and we've
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this too. There have been instances where boys,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: other boys have bullied a boy to death online through
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: social media posts and stuff like that. And there's been
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: instances where girls have bullied other girls to death through
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: online social media posts and stuff. And then there was
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: a this horrific case out of Texas where the mother
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: of a girl who she the mother felt had been
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: wronged by another girl, bullied the girl she thought had
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: wronged her daughter. She pretended to be a boy and
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: she flirted with her and built up a relationship and
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: then dumped her and bullied her. And it was it
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: was really insidious, just absolutely like this mother was absolutely evil,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: evil for what she did to this kid and caused
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: a suicide. And and those were all hearings that that,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about little bits here and there
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: in the past on HBr talk, but this one, this
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: one was unique at the time in that there had
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: not been a story of a girl bullying a boy
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: to death by using social media posts or text messages
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: or any any other such thing. And it wasn't widely
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: recognized yet that this kind of relational aggression, this kind
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: of sustained relational aggression against somebody could be at fault
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: when the person ended up committing suicide, the target ended
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: up committing suicide to escape the abuse, or because of
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: the abuse, for any other reason. So this claim largely
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: because all communication between Carter and Roy was via text
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: message and phone calls, well, no, what that contributed to
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: was that people actually could see what happened, right, the
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: evidence was there that made the evidence public. But the
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: case received significant media attention because for once, the girl
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: that bullied someone to death bullied a boy to death.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: So it was outstanding in that it was it was
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: a traceable example of something that happens all the time
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: in the family courts, right, and in other circumstances in
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: school settings where it's just you know, kids interacting with
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: each other. If a boy has that kind of circumstance
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: going on where a girl is bullying him, either through
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: things that she's said to him or things that she's
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: doing to him, and he goes to the school administrators
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: for help, they treat him like he's just being a wimp.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: So details of this case were carried on evening news
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: programs and podcasts, as well as national newspapers and magazines.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: Case was also the focus of twenty nineteen HBO documentary
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: I Love You Now Die, The Commonwealth versus Michelle Carter
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: and given the narrative treatment in Lifetimes Conrad and Michelle
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: If Words Could Kill and Hulse, the Girl from Plainville
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: and again these all are like twenty eighteen. These this
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: this is citing a twenty eighteen book and a twenty
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: eighteen I'm thinking that that's a movie. And then the
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: Girl from Plainville on Hulu is probably a series that's
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. So all of all three of these
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: things that are cited in this paper came out after
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: the article that we just looked at that was last
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: updated in twenty seventeen, that physically contains the text messages,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: has links to the text messages. The way that they're
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: printed up at the link makes them a little harder
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: to read than they are in the actual story, but
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: physically speaking, like it's not a good format. But so
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: this writer that wrote this paper could not possibly have
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: not known, right, YEA wouldn't possibly have been ignorant of
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: what was contained in those text messages, right, So she's
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: looking at this through the journalistic coverage. I explore the
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: journalistic coverage of this case through an analysis of diverse sites,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: including television news programs and forty three articles from national
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: and local newspapers and magazines. Well, thank you very much.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Did you guys hear that definitely lightning has been detected? Yeah, great,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna unplug some things here. The I got plenty
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: of time to run this without a power cord. I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: just hope we don't get to hear the tornado side.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: So last night there were tornadoes in Ohio all over
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: the place, not where I was. Though. Then we had
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: a like a fifteen minute tornado warning because there was
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: one on the ground in the general area, but it
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: didn't go through the neighborhood where I was or my home.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's not a tornado. There have been
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: some predictions of tornadoes, and it's it doesn't seem like
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not seeing flashes of light in here. So last
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: night there was a shit ton of lightning. It was beautiful,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: it was it was actually I was watching out the windows.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: I love good, good thunder lightning storm.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But yeah, so that's you guys might end up
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: hearing that kind of stuff from my phone tonight but
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: like you know, you know, the drill if if it
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: gets bad and and there actually is a tornado, which
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: there doesn't appear to be any indication that one is
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: even remotely likely. Right now, I just I'll just go
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: into my safe space with this laptop computer and continue
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: life streaming as long as I've got Wi Fi. So,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: but anyway, let's see, the media coverage of this case
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: participates in framing quote justice, and it puts justice in
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: scare quote quotes when a woman is in question, when
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: it's it's a woman that's being held accountable, justice gets
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: scare quotes as something that can be achieved when only
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: one person is held responsible, negating a wealth of other
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: contextual factors that undoubtedly, undoubtedly shape anyone's experience with suicidal ideation.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: So let's let's go here, all right. Dang it, I
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: didn't mean to let go of that. Come on, maybe
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: it's not gonna work because this is a pdf. Here
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: we go, all right, so this sentence. Just considering a
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: little bit of context here, I guess he didn't commit
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: suicide because his parents didn't know he was depressed. He
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: didn't commit suicide because nobody talked to the school on
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: his behalf. He didn't commit suicide because he had a
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: chemical imbalance. He committed suicide because she told him to
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: get back in the truck after he got out and said,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. Yeah, And she says, this,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: writer says. The media coverage of this case, this case
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: in which a girl literally browbeat a guy into going
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: through with a suicide that he had been considering, browbeat
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: him into getting back into the truck, brow beat him
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: into re engaging his method of suicide after he stopped
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: and said he was scared, participates in framing justice as
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: something that can be achieved when only the person at
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: whose actions directly contributed to his death, only the person
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: whose actions directly contributed to motivating him to engage his
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: method of suicide, is held responsible, right, negating all of
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: the factors that didn't detract from it, negating what the
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: windspeed like, sorry, only the person who pulled the trigger
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: on the gun, negating all of the wealth of other
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: details like how far away the target was, the wind speed,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: the make and model of the pistol, and whether or
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: not his friends and family stopped him from going to
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: the location where she shot him.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: With her words, all of those things make her not
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: less culpable for what she actually did that actually contributed
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: to him doing what he ended up doing.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got like, these are all details that she
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: knew about. And again, so by the way, I don't
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: know if y'all know, suicide is a crime. You can
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: get arrested for it, and then they give you a
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: hearing in the court system, just like if you had
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: tried to commit a robbery, except the outcome is usually
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: a determination of whether you're enough of a danger to
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: yourself that you have to be institutionalized for some period
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: of time in order to help you reset your mentality
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: and recover from whatever it is making you suicidal. And
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: so it's not the same as like, you don't necessarily
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: you're not going to go to jail for it. You're
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: going to be locked up, but you're not going to
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: go to jail, and they may not even do that.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: They may, instead of locking you up, order you to
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: take medication or order you to go to therapy, put
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: you in someone's custody, make you, you know, put you
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: under a guardianship of somebody like you one of your
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: parents or a sibling or somebody in your family that
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: can look out for you and make sure that you
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: don't kill yourself. And part of the reason for it
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: being handled that way by the state is that the
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: state doesn't have a shitload of different mechanisms for handling
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: human behavior, and so in order to have a mechanism
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: that allows the state to step in and protect if
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: a person from their own suicidality, they criminalized it. It's
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: not the best way to handle it, but it is
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: the way that the state knows how to do shit.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons I'm not big on government.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: And it's not all that different from what if there
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: was no state. If there was no government and you
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: had that situation and you somebody stopped you and your
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: family was aware of it, you probably would still experience
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: a condition not unlike being under somebody's guardianship, you know.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: So it would be, uh, it would be kind of
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: weird again for knowing that somebody is going to commit suicide,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: that they're in the process of commit committing suicide, knowing
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: that this is happening and doing nothing, not only doing
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: nothing to stop it, and not only failing to call
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: somebody and say, hey, this is happening, please help, but
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: actually actively encouraging him do it. Do it, Like, it'd
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: be really weird for the state to treat that as
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: an innocent act. Just so when you read this sentence,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: you have to read it from the perspective of this
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: woman is basically writing that ignoring a tragedy and a
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: crime and a self harm that are taking place, and
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: not you know, even if she hadn't said, hey, do it,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: do it, but just even the fact of just ignoring it,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: it's okay because she's a woman, right, Women are allowed
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: to do that. You know, if you don't let women
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: do that, you're you're making them perform femininity because it's
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: totally feminine to be held accountable for something like that.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: Men are never held accountable for anything like that. She's right,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: But the fact that she actually actively brow beat him
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: into it, and this woman, oh well, other things contributed, Yeah,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: but they didn't browbeat him into it. Yeah, right. You know,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: if she'd have, she had called him a racial slur
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: in the process, we wouldn't be having this discussion because
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: it would be a hate crime.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmm.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: Hmm. Well, depending on their race, Like if she could have,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: like I don't know, if he had like a cob
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: Polish ancestry and she called him a pollack or you know,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: like that's when I can you know, I have a
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: slight a bit of that, and so I have been
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: called that. Or if she, uh, you know, if he
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: if he had Spanish ancestry and she used the racial
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: slur for that or anything like that, that's all it
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: would have taken to make this. Oh, she did it
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: because he's he's this race or that race. Therefore, therefore
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: she's guilty, right, therefore shame on her. But no, they
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: don't do that because it was just she's female, poor girl.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: Indeed, one of the issues central to the analysis or
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: this analysis, is that there are many different stories that
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: might have been told. Right, this is another way to
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to highlight this. There are many different stories.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be the whole statement. Feminists do
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: this thing, all right, my truth, your truth, and my truth.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: There are many different ways that this could be described,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: many different points of view and perspectives, all right. And
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: I've actually had people post that stupid image of the
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: two people standing on opposite ends of a number on
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: the ground, and from one person's perspective, it looks like
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: a six and from the other person's perspective, it looks
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: like a nine. And there's a very solid point someone
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: made about that, and on a different computer in one
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: of my folders and one of my meme folders. I have it,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: but I don't think I have it on this computer.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: They wrote underneath a very salient point about that. Right,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: both perspectives are not right when you look at that. Right,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: you got one person that sees a six and one
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: person that sees a nine. One person is right and
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: the other person is wrong. Somebody drew a number intending
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: for it to be specifically a six or specifically a nine.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: They drew one or the other. They did not intend
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: for it to look like both.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: And one of those people is looking at it from
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: the correct position, from the correct angle, and what they see,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: they are seeing the picture accurately, and they know the
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: fact that it is what it is. The other person
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: is looking at it from an incorrect perspective, and they're wrong.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: It's not what they're seeing is wrong. They're not looking
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: at it from and it could be anything from you know,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: if that's a number in the road, which way does
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: the traffic flow on that road? Does it flow from
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: the position that would see it as a six, or
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: a position that would see it as a nine, because
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: that's probably the correct perspective. Mm. Is it perpendicular to
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: the road? Is there a bunch of other numbers somewhere
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: on the road. Is there a four that you can
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: look at and say, well, from this the perspective that
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: shows the four accurately, this looks like a nine, then
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: it's a nine. There are many different stories, but not
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: all of them are necessarily true. Not all of them
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: are necessarily relevant. Saltwater taffy, You're just fucking awesome. I
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: don't know the name of that character, but it looks
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: like a nine or a six on its side. Yeah,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: and a lot of because they can be confusing, a
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: lot of people and entities will put a line underneath
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: so that you know which number it is and it's
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: not mistaken for the other, which is smart. But yeah,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: the point being you just because there are two different
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: ways of looking at something and it looks different from
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: those two different perspectives, doesn't mean that there are two
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: correct ways of looking at it. Sure, there can be
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: many different stories, right, Lots of different things can be
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: said about this case. There are lots of different ways
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: of analyzing what could have been done to help this boy.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: Not all of them are valid, and none of them
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: negate the fact that she browbeat him into getting back
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: into the vehicle where he was killing himself. Yeah, you know,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: whether relying on news story she says, the court documents
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: or the pairs text conversations, the stories told are mediated.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: And that's another one she's she's engaging in false framing here.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: Calling a story mediated does not negate the evidence presented.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: It's a way of saying, there's evidence that could have
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: been presented that would change how the evidence that was
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: prevented or presented to influences your opinion.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I've ever seen so many
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: quotation marks in an article before. It just nothing is
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: what it seemed appears to be on the face of it, right,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: Not to this woman. According to her, she's just scapegoating
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: after scapegoat.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: It's quite amazing.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: It really is. And when you think about it, there
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: are some instances where you can say that, Right, if
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: you have a fight that takes place. You know, some
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: people at work have a conflict and they go out
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: into the parking lot at the end of the conflict
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: at some point and beat each other's asses. Right, And
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: let's say most people didn't see the actual fight, the
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: actual physical assault that took place. They just saw that
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: these two people have been at each other's throats for
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: like maybe weeks. They've been saying nasty things to each other,
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: playing jokes on each other, going to the manager with
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: problems that they should have been able to work out together,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. But everybody knows that on you know,
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: last Friday, after work, there was a fight in the
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: parking lot and the two exchanged blows. And so the
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: majority of people's stories will be about things that were said,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: incidents that took place. You know, this person went to
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: the manager about that person's lunch stinking up the break room,
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: you know, stupid stuff like that. Somebody somewhere will have
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: a story about who threw the first punch, right, and
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: what predicated that first punch, Did anybody lunch? What were
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: words were exchanged? Was there a threat made, you know,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: anything like that. And those are kind of the nitty
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: gritty in terms of who committed an assault and who
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: was acting in self defense. How egregious was the assault,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: how legitimate was the self defense and so on, and
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: all of that information can contribute to how strictly the
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: discipline is applied, whether the police are called, what the
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: police will do when they get there, whether they cite
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: both with disorderly conduct, or whether they cite one person
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: with assault and don't cite the other person for anything,
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: you know, and so on. But imagine in the case,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: instead of just everybody's words, you have a security video,
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: and the security video physically shows both parties walking out
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: of the building and every step by step thing that
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: happens between them walking out of the building and them
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: exchanging blows. Now you don't have a narrative, you have
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: solid physical evidence. None of the other stories matter. You
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: know who threw the first punch, You know what level
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: of aggression was taking place before the first punch, you
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: know who was engaging in it, and any documented evidence
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: prior to that can contribute to you know, well, maybe
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: the reason that person A leaned forward and yelled at
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: person B before person B punched was because person B
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: had been engaging in harassment. But the way to handle
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: it isn't confronting them in the parking lot, right, So
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: you have those kinds of like, there's a lot of
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: situation in which those kinds of little bits of contributing
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: evidence can you know, Okay, well, maybe this person instead
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: of getting a jail sentence, is going to get ordered
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: to take anger management. But they're still guilty of a
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: crime if they hit first, or they're still guilty of
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: a crime if they made a threat. You know, it
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: makes a difference too, And like does the video camera
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: have audio? Because it has audio, then you know what
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: was said. And if the individual that hit first can
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: rightly say he said he was going to stab me
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: and reached for his pocket and it's true, and I
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: didn't know if he had a knife or not, and
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: I backed away and punched him reflexively, and that's true,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: then then you have a totally different outcome than if
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: they were just yelling cusswords at each other and they
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: were mad and then somebody escalated by hitting the other person. Situation. Yeah,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: there were lots of contributing factors, But it's like that
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: fight where they were exchanging words back and forth and
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: somebody escalated by hitting the other person. She escalated by
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: badgering him, by browbeating him. You keep saying you're gonna
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: do it, but you're not really going to do it.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm getting tired of hearing you say you're
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: going to do it when you aren't shitting Get off
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: the pot, should ter, Get off the pot? Right? So
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: it's not just a mediated story. It's a story where
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: all the evidence that was available to police in the
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: court system was published. Like, we're well aware of all
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: the different circumstances, all the different contributing circumstances, and none
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: of them mitigate the fact that she browbeat him into suicide.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: I'm really curious as to the point of this author
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: even writing this article.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: Well, this is considered a piece of research, and yeah,
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: you're aware the feminist advocacy research game. Right. So this
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: this is framing this news story and new stories like
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: it as highlighting a problem. The problem is that that
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: that that she's trying to frame as a real thing,
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: is that Michelle Carter's speech, her means of communication, was
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: criminalized because she was a girl not properly performing femininity.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: This is the argument she's making that if if she
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: had not been female, that you know this, this, this
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: kid's death would not have been attributed to her.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: It's such bullshit because if it was if the.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: Genders were reversed, they'd be doing what they do every
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: time a man does something online. It's it's all men
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: online or a problem, and they're just misogynists and they've
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: got to be dealt with.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 3: Oh my god.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: Yep. By the way, I stopped in the middle of
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: reading the The Superchow's Meredith g also gave us one
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: for this this episode and said, Honey, for the Badger's
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: thanks for the thought provoking conversation. Hopefully it is because
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: this is something that this is so sneaky and insidious
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: what we're looking at here, It's something I want you
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: guys to understand. Right, how do we get to a
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: point where USAID's the us AID system is UH is
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: funding sterilizing men in Africa and UH feminists expect you
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: to think is a good thing. How do we get
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: to a point where they're committing one of the actions
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: that is inherently genocidal. They're they're they're sterilizing the men
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: of an ethnic group in a nation in Africa, right,
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: sterilizing as many as possible, and and researching how to
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: get more of them to agree.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: To be sterilized.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: How do we get to the point where that is
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: expected to fly, where the logic for that is expected
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: to fly. We get to it through this kind of weasel.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: It's not activism, but I don't know, manipulation of the
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: of the system. So they build this body of writing,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: academic writing that they'll refer to as research and theory,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: even though it is all speculation and conjecture. They'll build
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: this house of cards with articles like this and the
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: ones that the stories that it's citing, and the entertainment
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: media that it's citing and so on, where false framing
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: is repeatedly used to gloss over the reality that they're
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: talking about and replace it with their own narrative, until
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: there's a body of work big enough to go to
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: Congress or to go to a judge in a case
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: and say, look, here's what the academic consensus says, and
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: it's based on all of this work, and that determines
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: how the state acts. That determines what the state decides
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: is going to happen in the next case, in the
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: next So, for example, the adolescence series that we've been
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: talking about, and people are noticing, like everybody's aware, that
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: the adolescence series is a false frame. It's a replacement
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: of real events with a false narrative. People are aware
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: of that. People are aware of how it's being abused.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: They're offended that it's being put into the school systems
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: in the UK. People not just in the UK, but
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: in the United States, in Canada. I'm even seeing comments
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: in other languages about what a ridiculous thing it is
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: for the UK to be putting that in their school
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: systems and using that as a tool to attack boys
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: under the guise of training. Right, and in a vacuum,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: something like that cannot be successful. But it's not in
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: a vacuum. The curriculum that'll be created from that will
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: cite several other things that we've looked at in sort
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: of a vacuum. There are articles, news articles and blog posts,
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: feminist blog posts and academic blog posts going back from
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: like the last couple of years to almost ten years ago,
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: where they have used the word in cell to describe
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: communities of boys and men, and where they have demonized
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: them for being upset or sad about being lonely, and
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: for noticing that they are mistreated by women, noticing that
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: women are rude to them, that they look down on them,
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: that they make false assumptions about them just for being
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: there that you know, for instance, if you're waiting for
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: a bus, you can't sit on a bench with the
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: other people, if you're unattractive in male and your style
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: of clothing demonstrates that you're depressed because all of a sudden,
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: your suspect you're not just some guys sitting on a
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: bench here creep right, And when they talk about that stuff,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: and they talk about how women and girls will have
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: these narratives about them in their heads and they'll act
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: on them without any evidence to show this guy is dangerous,
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: this guy is mean, this guy is creepy, this guy
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: is uh, you know, a threat to me in any way,
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: shape or form. Feminists get offended when they when they
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: see those discussions and they treat it as an attack
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: on women. They call it misogynistic. It's really a boundary
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: issue with feminists where they are. They want control of
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: the way guys think, and they want to be able
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: to engage in those abusive practices of demon demonizing somebody
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: that has done nothing and has presented no evidence that
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: they deserve to be demonized just because he's male, without
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: him objecting to that. You're not allowed to object to
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: being abused if you're a guy. Right, Still, all that
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: whole body of uh writing and popular media and you know,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: social media and and so on that gets that's gonna
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: get used to contribute to that curriculum. And boys are
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: going to be browbeaten with that, and it's going to
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: be used to justify to the public and scare people's
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: moms too, Right, it's gonna be There's already been some
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: moms that have written some blog posts that it's just like, gosh,
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: I feel sorry for their sons. But that's all going
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: to be used to contribute to that. So those kids
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: in the school system are not just going to be
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: under attack by means of showing them a series and
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: having them talk about it. Everything they see is going
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: to be specifically framed in very academic terms, in very
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: manipulative terms, in ways that are specifically designed to not
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: just affect the way they think, but cut off their
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: ability to rationally debate. Yeah, it's it's it's way more
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: abusive and insidious than people are giving it credit for.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: It's bad. People are recognizing that it's bad, but they're
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: they're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Right, This
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: is a syop, and British children are about to be
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: subjected to a syop that is intended to make boys
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: hate themselves. Sorry you all right?
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: No, This guy that parks on the other block has
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: this car that the alarm just keeps going off, needs
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: to fix it.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: Might be sitting on his car keys when he gets
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: in the house.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: No, it's like every time, every time, two or three
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: times a night, and I just fix your damn car.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: Man. They might have a sense. If the sensitivity is variable,
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: he might have it set too high. We had a
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: neighbor that had the viper one back in This was
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: back in the nineties, and in it when you approached
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: the vehicle, it was designed to intimidate you know that
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: by by way of making the thief know that the
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: thief has been spotted, and it alerts the neighborhood. Right,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: so when you get too close to it, it would
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: say protected by viper. Stand back. Yeah.
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 3: And he had it had a.
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: Variable sensitivity, and he had the sensitivity set too high,
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: too sensitive, And the neighbor's cat he would come home
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: from work and he'd park his truck on the street
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: and the neighbor's cat had identified that after a certain
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: point of cooling, the hood would be an incredibly comfortable
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: place for it to sit because it was still warm
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: but not burnie hot. And so he'd go in the
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: house and he'd just start to relax, like maybe five
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: or ten minutes, maybe less than that even, and then
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, his truck would just start going blisted,
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: protected by viper stand back, protected by viper stand back,
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: And you come out and there's the cat sitting on
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: the hood of the truck. There's no thieve, just cat loaf,
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: and you know, so he would show the cat away
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: and it would settle down, and then you know, he
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: go back in the house and sit down and protected
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: by viper stand back, go back out. There's the cat
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: sitting on the on the hood is the truck again
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: And this would continue until it cooled off. Oh god,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: it killed his battery eventually.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, could I say it could very well
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: be a cat or some kind of animal out there,
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: but I think it's more likely that this bad wiring
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: somebere in that car. But it's annoying. So I'm sorry.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: If they came through, well you should hear mine, Like
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: I bet, I bet, I know my neighbors streams is
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: a video game streamer because I've like he's done it
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: with the curtains open so you can see that he's
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: streaming and and everything. And like usually when I see
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: it is when I'm coming home from work, and I
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: always just feel so bad because my vehicle is noisy,
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: and like, I just need one fucking day off and
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: we can we can put a new muffler on and
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: it'll solve that problem. There's an exhaust issue and part
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: of it's the muffler, and it's somewhere in in the exhaust.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: There's also a whole and it's like causing all kinds
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: of problems that need fix.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, got vacuum.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: You know. But in any case, yeah, so it's not
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: an alarm. It's just, yes, the car sounds like it's
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: gonna die, so hopefully it does, and I really need
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: to be able to get to and from work. But
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: in any case, yeah, so we think these narratives like this.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: This is an example of it's a you know, the
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: different cogs and wheels in a syop, each one has
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: a little tooth on it. This is a tooth on
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: a cog or in any syop this individual. She may
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: not even know she's doing it, but she's been influenced
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: by her professors and or her colleagues. If she is
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: a professor, And although she is a professor, I would
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 1: say she probably knows. But yeah, she goes on, let's
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: see whether relying on the news story, the court's documents,
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: or the pairs text conversations, this the stories told her
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: mediated we can never know what actually happened.
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 4: Oh God, calm on, which is why you lying, lady?
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 3: Why you lying? I mean, yes, that that is a
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: statement that can be me right.
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: You don't know exactly what was going through his head
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: at the very last minute, if it was definitely something
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: that she said, But the things that she said to
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: him obviously weren't helpful. Now you know, why can't why
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: can't you just leave it at that? Why can't that
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: just be sufficient enough to be the actual factual case
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: of the matter. Right, No, you've got to try to
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 2: find some way to make her not as it's it's
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: society's fault, not hers, Like, are you kidding me?
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: She goes on, There are any number of accounts of
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: this tragic situation. Actually there aren't. Lots of people haven't
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: come out said different things about what happened because lots
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: of people were not there for the text messages. Only
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: the two of them and their phones, and the actual
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: messages themselves are available black and white. You can see
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: what was said, you can read what was said. And
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: she goes on from that. Though we may perhaps never
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: know the true story of what occurred between Mike, between
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: Michelle and Conrad. Yet the story that condemned Michelle as
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: a manipulative bully took on a life of its own. Like,
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but telling somebody to commit suicide is a
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: known means of bullying. Yeah, telling somebody to kill themselves is.
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: Every social media out let bans people who do that.
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, suspend that on YouTube.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: Can't do it on X, can't do it on Facebook.
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: You can't get away with that on like I don't know.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you can on four chan, but uh, it's
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: because on four Chune people don't take it seriously. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: it's almost like a sneeze. Right, Look, I posted a
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: meme kill yourself. That's four chance. But but that's a
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: totally different environment. But regular social media no, right, and uh.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: Richard Bierre asked if the girl claims that here her
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: phone was cloned. No, she didn't claim that her phone
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: was cloned. She didn't claim that somebody else made the
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: text messages, none of that. There was no excuse whatsoever.
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: She owned up to that part. And and uh, you know,
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: the arguments that our attorney may aid more more about
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: her state of mind and whether or not she was
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: responsible for what she did, not that she didn't do
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: it or that it wasn't bad. Really let's see. Yeah,
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: So she says the story took on a life of
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: its own, heightening cultural anxieties about the relationship between feminine
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: manipulation and communication technologies. So her claim here isn't that
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: it you know, like, isn't just that, you know, the
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: text messages were what we were mad about, and the
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: vehicle is more important than the abuse itself. She is
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: now highlight this. She is now condemning the criticism of
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: relational aggression. You can't criticize relational aggression if the vehicle
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: involves communication technology instead of doing it in person. So
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: we've had a history in child rearing and the education
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: system and how it handles situations of bullying and harassment.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: We've had a history of recognizing things as abuse specific
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: behaviors as abuse, including types of relational aggression that socially
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: isolates someone. Nobody hang out with Susie, Susie's persona no gradis,
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: don't sit with her at lunch, she don't talk to
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: her in class. If she drops her pencil, don't pick
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: it up. You know that kind of thing bullying, Right,
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: if somebody tells on the organizer and the school administration
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: becomes aware that there is an organized campaign of excluding
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: Susie that can get the girls in trouble, right, telling
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: Susie nasty things about herself, tearing down her self image deliberately. Again,
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: if it's organized, or if a particular bully engages in
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: a sustained campaign of it can be punishable in school
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: under zero tolerance policies. And that's you don't even have
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: to tell Susie to kill herself. You can just consistently
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: make fun of Susie for being fat, right, or consistently
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: make fun of Susie for having parents of two different races,
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: or having parents that don't speak English, anything that Susie
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: might have a rough time processing or dealing with, or
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: find embarrassing, or might make the other students mistreat Susie.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: As soon as it's confirmed to the administration that a
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: student has engaged in a sustained campaign of doing this
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: to Susie, that student can get into trouble. Right And Yeah,
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: if another student kept approaching Susie and saying have you
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: killed yourself yet? Are you going to kill yourself? Like?
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: That would be considered bullying and harassment, and there would
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: be discipline. There probably would be a suspension, and there
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: probably would be a requirement of some kind of therapy
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: before that student was allowed to return to the campus
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: because they would be considered dangerous to Susie and to
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: the other students. Right, But because it's done by text
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: messages and online, suddenly this this argument says, it's it's
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: no longer it no longer counts as bullying guys, because
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: there was a different vehicle. We didn't we didn't cross
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: straight state lines in a pickup truck. We crossed state
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: lines in a hugo.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: So it's okay, Yeah, it's it's Verizon's fault because that's
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: who her phone carrier was. They were the one that
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: that transmitted those messages.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 3: They're as much to blame.
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, A T and T. Yeah, the art of trigger
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: triggering and being triggered. Like, the logic here is astounding.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: It really is astounding that like this, this is it's
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: bad enough that that she's making this Mott Bailey argument,
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: like defending abuse, all right, defending browbeating somebody into suicide
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: by hiding it behind the mott of Oh, it's about
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: it's about the style, the method of communication. It's not
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: about what she said, it's about what she used. Because
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: she was speaking in text messages. I feel like if
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: you said, well, it's okay to to uh commit perjury
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: as long as you do it in Spanish instead of English. Yeah, Uh.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: There's no doubt Conrad's death is a tragedy. At least
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: she admits that that fact is not up for debate.
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: My goal in this article is to examine, and this
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: is the big, big point. My goal is to examine
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: the construction of Michelle's story as it unfolded in the media,
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: and the stakes of that concept for how we account
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: for interpretations of femininity, adult concerns about young people's communication
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: and mental health in the midst of technology. So what
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: she's telling you there, like reading between the lines, is
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: I don't want to admit that a girl about to
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: reach adulthood insidiously, viciously, maliciously browbeat a young man who
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 1: had just reached adulthood into killing himself. Therefore, I'm going
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: to shift the focus from her agency and her accountability
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: for her actions that she decided to take to extenuating circumstances,
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 1: and condemn you for judging. Yeah, so with that, we're
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: going to, uh, we're gonna we'll explore a little bit
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: more of this next week. I think before we get
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 1: into the other story. I'm not going to read the
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: entire paper, partly because it's behind a paywall. What I
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 1: have isn't obviously behind a paywall, But I'm not going
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: to go through the whole thing. But you get the
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: just just from that, just from that intro, you get
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: the gist of what's what's going on here, And there's
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: not the point that I wanted to make with it.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: We've we've pretty much made. Oh, somebody asks me a
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: question about park John Doe says, Hannah, are you actually
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: allergic to pork? Are you allergic to the feed that
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: they feed pigs that affects their biochemistry? So it's not
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: that I'm not allergic pork, pigs don't sweat, so they
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: have less of a mechanism for processing toxins when they
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 1: build up in pork. So there's it's not quite a
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: level of where you know, you would get diagnosed with
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 1: gout for this, but you when you eat food that
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: has that kind of level of toxins in it, your
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: body has to process it too. And I've noticed over
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: the last ten years or so that I tend to
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: have more chronic joint pain after I eat pork than
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: I do normally. And there's other things that contribute to
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: and it. It tends to be stuff that your body
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: would process a lot of what you've taken in out
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: and send it out with the trash that your into
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: intocrine system sorts out and says, this isn't contributing to
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: the building of any cells. This is just gonna, you know,
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: go out to the poop shoot. So it's it goes
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: along with like I don't I don't, I don't eat pork,
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: I don't drink alcohol anymore, I have cut weight down
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: on sugar. I don't take over a lot of over
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: the counter medication if I don't have a prescription for
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: something where the doctor says you really need to take
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: this or you know, like with my allergy pills. There
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: there are times where if I don't take my allergy pills,
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: I can't see because my eyes are gonna be swell
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: shut geese. Like yeah, so I take that, But like
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 1: I try not try not to make my indocrine system
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: process anything it doesn't have to, right, And that's that's why,
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: so I'm not eating a lot of but h And
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: there isn't some way that you can feed or process
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 1: or package pork. Your body builds up its own toxins.
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: Everything you eat has stuff that your your body rejects,
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: and there's does too. So it's it's just it's just
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: a thing I just don't but and it's it's not
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: even a morality thing, Like I have nothing against eating pork.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: I think for most people, you know, if you're not
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: a mutant like me, and and your body works the
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: way it's supposed to you, you can pretty much eat
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: any of that stuff and it shouldn't cause you any problems, right,
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's not unhealthy to eat these things.
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: It's not unhealthy to have a beer now and then
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: it's it's pretty normal. But but I just have to
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: do things a little differently, So it's just the way
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: it is, you know, Like and unless somebody can come
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 1: along and go through and change my DNA completely, that's
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: going to be the rest of my life. So there's
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of other things I really enjoy eating and
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: drinking that it's not that big of a deal. There's
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 1: nothing important about the stuff that I'm not eating and drinking.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: So it's it's not like, you know, I didn't have
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: to I didn't have to switch to a total period
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: diet or anything like that. That that that is it
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: takes a lot of time to get used to the
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 1: change and stuff. It's it's really an easy switch for me.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: It could have been a lot worse, you know, Like
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: getting the news that I got from my medical DNA
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: test was it's not the best news I could have gotten,
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: but it's really not the worst news I could have gotten.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 1: And there were a lot of things in that test
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: where I had I'm the carrier, but I don't have
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: the pathological version, uh that that that that news could
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: have been so much worse. You guys have no idea.
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: So it's I can't even really be upset about it
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 1: because it's like it's almost like God went through my
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: DNA and picked out like, well, all right, it's gonna
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: lose a lottery on something here, Let's pick the easiest
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: thing for her to deal with. Yeah, seriously, but in
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 1: any case, where was I like I said, we'll go,
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: We'll go a little bit into the next like paragraph,
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: maybe the next two paragraphs. I'm not where where we'll
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: see this headline technology use and morality. I don't know
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: if we're going to pass that headline, if if we're
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: gonna go all the way through, but we'll finish this
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: next week and then I'm I'm gonna find some sources
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 1: about that tech this incident, because I think we're we're
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: gonna I think you're right, Lauren. I think we're gonna
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: see some narratives come out of that, and we're going
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: to talk about that too. And then I also want
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more about how this contributes
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: to getting legislation passed, getting initiatives funded, and stuff like that,
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: where you see this stuff on the surface, or you
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: you see a news story and then you don't see
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff happening in the background, but Congress gets.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 5: Approached or the creators of your public school curriculum get approached,
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 5: or church administrators that determine what their youth groups are
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 5: going to.
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: Talk about get approached. And the next thing, you know,
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: there's this narrative that has there's an undercurrent that is
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: putting pressure on the Overton window to make it move
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: it to where it's acceptable for women to engage in
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: this type of abuse. And I think that's kind of
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: what's I'm seeing a pattern between this and things like
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: the Adolescent series, which appears to have I haven't actually
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: watched the series. I've just been watching the different trailers
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: that have come out, and it appears to have a
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: similar narrative that it's all right for uh, women and
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: girls to browbeat a boy, it's not all right for
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: him to get upset about it and react. He complains,
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: that's the same as saying that he's going to stab somebody.
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, is that a series? For I thought it was.
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: There's like four episodes, So what it is is they
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: made a movie and they broke it into four episodes
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: and called it a series.
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 3: You know, Okay, okay.
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: But like I'm seeing this the and the behavior of
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: the like the narrative construction where they take an incident.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 1: Let's say the work incident that I made up to
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: talk about made national headlines because something about it had it,
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: like maybe one of the punches thrown killed somebody. And
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: so it makes national headlines and people talked about it,
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 1: and it's controversial and all that kind of thing, and
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: it doesn't quite fit a narrative that the left wants
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 1: to promote, like a racial narrative or a gender narrative
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: or something like that. So they make a movie about
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: it or a series about it, or they put it
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: into an episode of a series, like maybe a police
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: show where the police are responding to such an incident,
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: but they change the characters, like maybe both of the
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: characters the real story, maybe both of the people involved
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: were men, but they make one of the characters a
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: woman in the show, you know. And and they'll do that,
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: and they'll use it to assert a belief as true
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: based on this narrative, and they'll say the narrative is
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: based on a true story, when in reality, the detail
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 1: they've changed is so significant to the story that it
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: is no longer based on a true story, Like there
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: is no true story of that incident that they described.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 3: And I think a lot of times.
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if you say that it's based on
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 2: a true story, people will take it for gospel.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh I've seen I've seen checks get mad
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: at a guy because he has something in common with
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: a villain in a movie or a TV show. His
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: voice sounds the same, or his eyebrows are the same. Right,
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: chicks are stupid like this is this is a real
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 1: problem for guys with bushy eyebrows, like I have actually
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: witnessed this in person. You know you, I don't like
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: you because you look like blue do like to one
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: of the most gentle and kind men I know? Just
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 1: like you have to be kidding me, What do you mean?
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 1: What is wrong with you? Do you not see the
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 1: personality of the individual that you're hanging out with? But yeah,
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 1: just stupid shit like that, right, So, because people, women
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: in particular, but people in general, can be tricked like that,
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: you know, where they see maybe they didn't discuss the
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: work fight news story, right, but they see the movie
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: about it, and they forget instantly that the actual news
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: story was about two men in a fight, and they
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: remember the movie being about a man and a woman
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: in a fight. And I've watched this happen in real
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: time with a Kyle rittenhouse, where there were narratives upon
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: narratives upon narratives, news articles that said false things, references
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: in multiple entertainment media, and so on that portrayed the
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: news story as if it happened in an entirely different
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: way than it happened in real life. And I'll argue
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 1: I had arguments with people about what this kid did
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: and what he didn't do, and what the people that
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: attacked him did and what they didn't do. Where they're
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: describing the narrative that is being created by these falsehoods,
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: these fictions as if it's the reality, and they're shocked
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: when I can link to video evidence and articles about
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: the court case and like literal physical undeniable, you can
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: see what really happened, evidence that contradicts everything they're saying.
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 1: Because they so expected to be right without having to
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: look anything up, that they just couldn't believe what was
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: in front of their eyes. And so that's that's kind
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: of what this is for, what this type of writing
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: is for. They just they use a shitload of They
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 1: don't just do it once right, They do it like
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: a rainstorm. You get a couple of drops like this,
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: and then you get more and more. There will probably
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 1: be other pieces of academic work, writing research papers, essays
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: in particular, because you can write anything in an essay, right,
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: and it's legit part of the essay. So but it
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: just all kinds of different thing and they'll cite this
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: as if it's gospel because it's published, and it'll become
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: the facts of the case. Right. Well, it was just
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: alleged that she said that and did that. No, there's
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: the text messages. You can see them. They're real, right, No, No, no,
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: that was we don't know that they were submitted in
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 1: the case. She didn't deny they were real. She only
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: made excuses for them. Oh, we we don't know, see
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: this article says, and that's the arguments that you end
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 1: up in. Right. So we'll go on with more of
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: this though next week, because it is it is after
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: nine o'clock and I better get us into the after show.
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: But we'll continue from this point. We'll read the last
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: paragraph on this page and the first paragraph on the
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: next page, and we'll look at some of the articles
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: about about the Texas case and and have more of
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: this discussion next week, because this is something that I
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: think it's vital to understanding to to understand this in
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: order to understand how we end up with things like
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: the Violence Against Women Act, USAIDS funding the sterilization of
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: a race of men in some foreign country, right, and
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: the school system deciding that it is okay to tolerate
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 1: this type of behavior toward boys in the classroom and
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 1: in fact engaging in it academically. So I don't recall
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: seeing any super chats. I think we got all of
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 1: the superchows. Albatross gave us five dollars, but it didn't
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: say anything underneath. So Albatross, if you were trying to
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: send text with your superchat, it did not come through.
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 1: Not quite sure why.
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: But.
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: In any case, thank you for the five. And that
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: is all of our various super chats and super chows.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: I hope nothing comes through afterwards. We have had some
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 1: several actually times where I've like closed down the show,
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: and a minute or two after I quit everything, another
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 1: super chow comes through. I think it's because of this
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 1: the thirty second delay. So I'm gonna say, you know,
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 1: this is the cutoff point. Don't send any more because
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 1: in a few seconds I'm going to shut down the
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 1: show and I won't get to read it. So thanks
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 1: everybody for listening, and thanks Lauren for going through this
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: with me, and thanks to everyone who works in the
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: background to make HBr talk happen. And good night all.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: We will see you next year. Yeah yeahs became described
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 1: as say us pos