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Hamster Book Club - The Plotters by Gareth Roberts (featuring Anthony Carroll) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:00
  Vicky turned for a closer look at the young man.
• 0:03
  Not long ago he must have been a ravishing beauty.
• 0:07
  Now he had an incipient beard, and his cheeks and nose were
• 0:10
  dotted with premature liver spots.
• 0:13
  His manner was preening and unpleasant, and he took a
• 0:16
  deliberate and evident pleasure in the King's company.
• 0:21
  I don't like the look of him. What's his job, then?
• 0:25
  The doctor looked uncomfortable. Well, I don't think he has an
• 0:32
  official position. Vicky twigged.
• 0:35
  But the King's married, isn't he?
• 0:40
  In a level 2 society that can count for very little.
• 0:43
  The doctor seemed rather flustered and embarrassed and
• 0:46
  quickly changed the subject. My point is, you shouldn't
• 0:49
  expect perfection from the privileged.
• 0:52
  He caught the King's eye and raised a goblet with a smile
• 0:54
  that was out of place on his normally stern features.
• 0:57
  Do as I do, child. He muttered to Vicky.
• 1:00
  She lifted her own goblet and smiled at the king.
• 1:03
  Hello down there. The king called.
• 1:07
  Hello up there. Vicky called back, realizing as
• 1:10
  she did that she had committed a terrible error.
• 1:13
  The yard fell suddenly silent. The doctor took a sharp intake
• 1:17
  of breath. The king fixed Vicky with a
• 1:20
  penetrating stare, and he seemed to lose all of his silliness
• 1:24
  after a moment. The Doctor stammered.
• 1:27
  Ah, your Majesty, I must apologise for my young ward.
• 1:30
  He is unused to your Exalted. The King waved A forgiving hand.
• 1:36
  Not at all, not at all. He peered at the Doctor, then
• 1:40
  turned his gaze again on Vicky. His eyes travelled up and down
• 1:45
  the length of her body. She had an uncomfortable feeling
• 1:48
  that he was mentally undressing her.
• 1:50
  You would be the Doctor of Divinity out of York, he said at
• 1:55
  length. Yes, your Majesty, this is my
• 1:59
  ward, Victor, a comely lad, the King said, stretching out each
• 2:04
  syllable suggestively. Fair of hair, and with such
• 2:08
  splendidly plump and rosy cheeks.
• 2:11
  A model of health, and with a lively wist about him.
• 2:14
  Hello up there. Indeed.
• 2:18
  The Yard echoed the King's appreciation with an automatic
• 2:21
  and artificial ripple of laughter.
• 2:24
  Vicky felt she ought to say something.
• 2:26
  Thank you, she said. The doctor nudged her in the
• 2:29
  ribs. Your Majesty, she added quickly.
• 2:33
  The King lured Victor. You would like to play me at
• 2:36
  Loggarts tomorrow. Vicky felt the situation is
• 2:40
  slipping away from her. Well, well, of course I'd love
• 2:42
  to. I mean, that would be nice, but
• 2:45
  well, I have to help the Doctor win in his researches.
• 2:48
  Oh, the doctor said loudly. How devoted the Boyers to me, of
• 2:53
  course. Yes, I should be glad to place
• 2:56
  him in your care, Your Majesty. A few hours of playful Loggetts
• 2:59
  will do him the power of good after our long journey.
• 3:04
  Indeed, Haberton Loggetts are good for youthful soul.
• 3:09
  There was another mumble of agreement.
• 3:12
  In spite of her misgivings, Vicky noticed that Cecil did not
• 3:14
  join in this time. She recalled the chamberlain's
• 3:17
  early words of warning. As if on cue, Cecil pushed his
• 3:21
  chair with a scrape and got to his feet.
• 3:24
  Your Majesty, He said with an undisguised glass of contempt of
• 3:28
  Vicky that throws her blood. I would respectfully remind you
• 3:32
  that your commitments to the state of such that further time
• 3:35
  away cannot be spared. He blinked rapidly, as if
• 3:39
  forcing down a wave of anger. We have yet to discuss the
• 3:43
  speech. You will not raise your voice in
• 3:46
  this chamber again, Cecil, James said pettishly.
• 3:50
  Remember, I am king. And who appointed me so?
• 3:55
  Almighty God, he said sullenly. Did he remember the doctor's
• 3:59
  earlier words of how Cecil would work to bring James to the
• 4:02
  English throne and could understand his bitterness?
• 4:05
  Exactly. And by divine Providence, you
• 4:08
  are at my side. He struck a fist down at the
• 4:11
  table. If the Lord wants me to dance, I
• 4:14
  shall dance. If he directs me to play.
• 4:16
  Loggets, loggets, I shall play. I listen to him before you do.
• 4:22
  You presume to exalt yourself about the highest.
• 4:26
  Cecil took a rolled up scroll from the fold in his robes.
• 4:30
  I act as I have always done, out of my love for you and this
• 4:34
  nation. The Catholics of the Catholics,
• 4:37
  nothing. James said fiercely.
• 4:39
  Vicky was impressed by his sudden gravity.
• 4:43
  She cast a sideway glance at the doctor and found him following
• 4:45
  the exchange keenly, his eyes darting between the two men as
• 4:49
  if he were following a tennis match.
• 4:52
  Cecil, my tactics I have made plain, and my successes are
• 4:56
  palpable. We have peace with the Spanish,
• 4:59
  peace with the French, peace with the Dutch, and peace in the
• 5:02
  country. Let there be no return to
• 5:05
  burning and persecutions. These bring forth only martyrs,
• 5:10
  and thus further disharmony. Moderation is the key to good
• 5:14
  politics. You will hear that in my speech
• 5:17
  on the night of the 5th, which you will have in your hand, and
• 5:20
  of which you will not alter one word.
• 5:24
  You hear, Cecil, not a letter. Will I suffer to be altered?
• 5:28
  There was a long silence. The two men held each other's
• 5:31
  gaze. Finally Cecil said.
• 5:34
  And while you played Loggarts, James, what if the papers should
• 5:37
  be plotting some disruption at this most vital and vulnerable
• 5:41
  time of our calendar? James rolled his eyes.
• 5:45
  You are the greatest disruptor, Cecil.
• 5:47
  I tell you, if anyone Catholic, Puritan, or even one of my
• 5:51
  closest advisors. He emphasized the warning.
• 5:55
  Whoever tries to interrupt this Parliament's opening, there'll
• 5:58
  be fireworks. I should advise such a person to
• 6:02
  back down and trust in my divine right.
• 6:06
  Any other course might be regarded as blasphemy.
• 6:09
  Cecil nodded and sat down. The court returned to its food
• 6:13
  in embarrassed silence. There was something in the quiet
• 6:16
  and atmosphere that reminded Vicky of children.
• 6:18
  After a particularly stern ticking off, she found she was
• 6:22
  missing democracy for all its contradictions.
• 6:26
  The doctor was muttering something under his breath.
• 6:28
  It was an especially irritating habit.
• 6:31
  She listened closely. Fireworks, he was saying.
• 6:36
  Fireworks indeed. If only he knew.
• 6:39
  What are you mumbling about, Doctor?
• 6:41
  Oh, nothing, my child, nothing. He looked up and she saw that
• 6:45
  his eyes were wettening with stifled laughter.
• 6:48
  His face reddened as he forced his reaction down.
• 6:51
  Oh dear, yes, yes, yes, fireworks.
• 6:57
  Vicki returned her attention to the meal and tried to ignore a
• 7:00
  worry that nagged at her like an aching tooth.
• 7:03
  Was the doctor still holding something back?
• 7:09
  Right, Anthony? Quick, get up that passage.
• 7:12
  Right. We're we're underneath
• 7:14
  Parliament right now. Yeah.
• 7:16
  Did you bring the stuff? I've got my stuff in my back.
• 7:19
  Let's go through the passage. Get it out.
• 7:21
  Get your stuff out now I'll. Get my stuff out in this back
• 7:24
  passage. I've got some here that'll say
• 7:27
  it off a tree. Do you know why are we doing
• 7:31
  this? Again, why are we doing this?
• 7:33
  As if it was less on the nose when some of this stuff and
• 7:36
  applause. No, I'm still acting.
• 7:39
  What are you talking about? I mean, why are we underneath
• 7:41
  Parliament right now politically?
• 7:44
  Why are we doing this? Wait, there's, there's, there's
• 7:47
  a lot of good. I've got reasons.
• 7:49
  I think these days that, you know, everyone's had enough.
• 7:52
  I've had enough. I realise.
• 7:56
  That information means reformation.
• 7:58
  I've just invited a politician onto my podcast and suggested a
• 8:01
  very bad thing. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 8:05
  no. It's what we call the Hamster
• 8:06
  Book Club. Hamster big club.
• 8:07
  Thank you so much. I don't know where we are these
• 8:10
  days. Anthony, how are you today?
• 8:13
  Thanks, I will be OK as long as I don't get prescribed after
• 8:15
  this introduction to the podcast from the government.
• 8:18
  But it's. Been nice knowing you.
• 8:20
  All right, OK. I'll see you in 30 years.
• 8:24
  I think you've got a very impressive stick of dynamite
• 8:26
  there. You're brandishing.
• 8:30
  Yes, the little little stick of Brighton rock that will get us
• 8:33
  through this this book. Stick of Brighton rock, is that
• 8:37
  it? Oh, bless you.
• 8:40
  What we're here to talk about today, I mean, we've not dropped
• 8:42
  any clues at all. Why we are here to talk about
• 8:46
  the Plotters by David Agnew. David Agnew, much celebrated
• 8:52
  author. Yes.
• 8:53
  Well, actually, let's be honest. In the day, Yes, a much
• 8:57
  celebrated author. Yes.
• 9:00
  It's just while we're doing politics, you know, In current
• 9:04
  days, perhaps less so. Yes, perhaps not someone we
• 9:09
  would want to be seen returning any day soon in this time.
• 9:12
  Not to put you in the more of an awkward spot than I already
• 9:15
  have, you know, sort of coming on to you and getting you to
• 9:19
  perform terrorism in the 1st 5 minutes of this recording.
• 9:21
  But how did you sort of approach Agnew in the higher science that
• 9:25
  you recently did on your fabulous podcast?
• 9:28
  Too broad and too deep. Say we're still rude.
• 9:32
  Yeah, so when we covered Higher Science by Agnew, I wasn't as
• 9:37
  smart as you is who had used the pseudonyms.
• 9:40
  I I just put a cloister bill anytime we forgot to say to not
• 9:45
  say just the offer or whatever but that's AI think a more
• 9:50
  professional ways to give actual name in the situation.
• 9:53
  I'm not professional, Anthony. No, you are more professional
• 9:56
  than I was by and much more easier than the edit than I was
• 9:59
  by needing to. Unless it was a quite an issue
• 10:02
  trying to add cloister bills every 10 seconds.
• 10:04
  But. I'm going to get this over and
• 10:06
  done with in 30 seconds. Are you ready?
• 10:09
  I recently put out an episode on The English Way of Death with
• 10:12
  the glorious Kieran Powell, where we discussed at length the
• 10:17
  politically, morally, socially tricky situation of talking
• 10:23
  about Mr. Agnew's books and came to the conclusion that we will
• 10:26
  cover them, but we will separate our from artists.
• 10:30
  How's that? Yeah, that, that does it.
• 10:34
  A bit tricky in a book where there's plenty of sort of gender
• 10:36
  bending and yeah. This is this is the thing that
• 10:41
  keeps occurring in in his books. It's the same when we're doing
• 10:44
  the highest science, when we're are.
• 10:46
  They I'm aphrodisiac. Yeah.
• 10:50
  So like, well, I think so, yeah, that like they, they use
• 10:54
  masculine gendered terms, but when it comes to that, it's also
• 10:58
  their mothers and such. So there's like the hybrid mix
• 11:01
  of different kind of gender terms and it's the same in this
• 11:05
  because we all it's just it's bizarre sort of cutting thing.
• 11:10
  My mum was obsessed with people changing sex.
• 11:13
  Well, can I very quickly, I'm always going to do this.
• 11:20
  I told you. Is this sort of catch up with
• 11:22
  you on being too broad and too deep for the small screen and
• 11:27
  ask you sort of where your journey is So fun.
• 11:29
  I know you've you've been down the pit and survived.
• 11:33
  Yeah, we went a bit too broad, a bit too deep down, a bit of of
• 11:37
  pain. Everyone going this is life.
• 11:44
  Genuinely, it was a bit of a struggle getting through that
• 11:47
  one because is a it deserves its reputation.
• 11:53
  I mean, I think there won't be many who will disagree with
• 11:56
  that. I think there will be probably
• 11:58
  only one person who disagrees with that, at least in the
• 12:00
  comments we got. Did you?
• 12:01
  Know that it was like, yeah, you know, I sort of started this and
• 12:04
  it was all right, bloody hell, what's happened?
• 12:06
  Like Jesus Christ. Or was that you?
• 12:09
  No, that was you. No, yeah, I was on this podcast,
• 12:12
  the last episode we talked about Dalek, and I was enjoying it
• 12:14
  because it was a simple world setting and when it just kept
• 12:18
  doing that. And like, the big thing about
• 12:22
  the book is that, you know, it's essentially a plot, like a
• 12:24
  script from what could have been the season 27.
• 12:29
  And yeah, well, it could be a really simple Terry Nation style
• 12:34
  script if it did happen. But it could have happened.
• 12:38
  But on top of that, the writer decided to try and just have
• 12:42
  other sort of nepless plots that have no connection to the
• 12:46
  storyline, had no connection to the doctor and Benny.
• 12:50
  And at the same time, Ben had to try and cut the novel near the
• 12:54
  end by 25,000 words and didn't cut these sort of additional
• 13:00
  things that and bring it down just to what the script was.
• 13:03
  It tried to do the best of both worlds and end up being the
• 13:06
  worst. So yeah, it was quite, quite
• 13:10
  expedient getting through and digging ourselves through that
• 13:13
  part. Another thing I asked you last
• 13:15
  time was, you know, whether you're leaving that book lying
• 13:17
  around with that Lady with the blue tits on the cover.
• 13:19
  Did she feature a lot in the book?
• 13:21
  Was she? No.
• 13:22
  And she's she's she's much more, you know, boisterous as I could
• 13:28
  say on the cover than she is within the book.
• 13:31
  Because they're all meant to be some sort of pre Gallif, pre
• 13:35
  Time Lord Gallifrey and leopards, like leopards that are
• 13:40
  like, meant to have like arms missing and be all disease and
• 13:44
  things like this. But you can't, you can't have a,
• 13:46
  a boisterously bosomed woman on the front cover be all limbs
• 13:52
  missing and all of that. So they took some liberties, I
• 13:55
  think, on the car. You know, there's that sort of
• 13:57
  theory, you know, the the Doctor was there back in the olden days
• 14:01
  of Gallifrey, you know, in the ancient times with Omega and
• 14:04
  Raslod and all that. I mean, if these blue women were
• 14:07
  going around with their boobs out all the time, you've got to
• 14:09
  wonder why he ever decided to leave.
• 14:11
  You know, he would have stuck around and got, actually, it's
• 14:13
  pretty all right around here. Exactly.
• 14:15
  And you don't need to worry about anything.
• 14:17
  You've got limbs near limbs nearby if you ever do want to
• 14:19
  have any any offspring. Anthony, I'm really sorry.
• 14:23
  I feel like on your own podcast you just talk about intellectual
• 14:26
  things. Then I'll bring you on ear and
• 14:27
  it's just all smart. So.
• 14:29
  Sorry. Well, you.
• 14:30
  Chose a good book for smart, I think.
• 14:32
  Let's move. Away from smart and talk about
• 14:34
  the plotters say, which is as end of the pair smarty as you're
• 14:39
  going to get in a Doctor Who book.
• 14:41
  Well, overall, how did you find it?
• 14:44
  Did you enjoy it? Oh, it was.
• 14:46
  A breeze and I absolutely enjoyed reading this one,
• 14:49
  especially from what I just had gone through with the Pet.
• 14:53
  This was such a quick read because it just flowed better,
• 14:57
  flowed so naturally. It's very much delivered on what
• 15:02
  the style of the show of the timer was as well.
• 15:04
  And I was, I think one of the biggest benefits across these
• 15:09
  ranges of books that David Agnew does as he can really kind of
• 15:13
  capture that period of whatever doctor he's he's doing.
• 15:17
  And yeah, it really works for doing a sort of Season 2 style
• 15:20
  story. Oddly, I think the only place
• 15:23
  where he falters is when he tries to write a new adventure
• 15:26
  when he's trying to do like what's happening now rather than
• 15:30
  what's what's happened in the past because hi sites, I know
• 15:34
  you guys had a bit of a mixed reaction to.
• 15:35
  And then he does two more going ahead, and those aren't
• 15:39
  considered great successes. And yeah, he's missing
• 15:42
  Adventures, the three Season 17 ones.
• 15:44
  And the plotters are held in huge regard.
• 15:47
  Like one of the joys of the missing adventures, I think one
• 15:52
  of the things they have to make them more enjoyable than the New
• 15:56
  Avengers sometimes, is that the New Avengers can push the Doctor
• 16:00
  aside and the companions aside sometimes in order to tell big,
• 16:04
  ambitious stories. Whereas Missing Adventures
• 16:07
  really gets you close to the regulars that they choose and
• 16:11
  you have a lot of time with them.
• 16:13
  And this book had a lot of time with the First Doctor, Vicki,
• 16:17
  Ian and Barbara. I don't think there's really
• 16:19
  many scenes where one of them doesn't feature.
• 16:22
  Am I wrong? No, you're right.
• 16:24
  Because, you know, in that vein, the New Adventures is kind of
• 16:29
  like the Wild West at that time. They can plot, as it were,
• 16:31
  whatever journey they want. They can go to any direction of
• 16:34
  storytelling and to varying degrees they try that.
• 16:40
  But when it comes to the missing adventures, it's like a sort of
• 16:42
  like, you know, comfort blanket almost.
• 16:46
  I'm not an end of dog. She would be.
• 16:47
  I mean, I mean, like, if if that's going a bit too wild for
• 16:50
  you, you've got something that you can know and trust from the
• 16:55
  old show and it's done in that style so that you can rely on it
• 17:00
  to still be not too, too wild, too broad or too deep.
• 17:04
  Because it's it's meant to be in the context of the show that you
• 17:08
  used to watch at the time. So it's a definite way of
• 17:12
  storytelling. That then means that you need to
• 17:14
  have the Doctor or the Companions more than it as well.
• 17:17
  Well, here's a question for you then, because I feel like when
• 17:21
  the missing Avengers came out, this was the first of this sort
• 17:23
  of thing that we'd ever done, right?
• 17:25
  Is is look back to the past and have a nostalgia hit like this
• 17:30
  beyond maybe some of the comic strips that sort of lean towards
• 17:34
  the past? A couple of Times Now in 2025,
• 17:37
  we have had 30-40 years of books, comics, I mean, 100
• 17:45
  million Big Finish audios. You know, we are in nostalgia
• 17:49
  City now. No, not city empire.
• 17:51
  No, let's go bigger universe. We're in nostalgia universe.
• 17:54
  So do these things still hit in the same way now in the wake of
• 17:58
  that massive wave? It depends when you're a fan and
• 18:03
  and who is it actually for in the end?
• 18:05
  Like at the time in the 90s when these these were being
• 18:08
  published. Yeah, fans probably more so for
• 18:12
  like the the Baker ones and the Pearly ones maybe to an extent
• 18:15
  as well, is where the big hitters would have been for
• 18:18
  nostalgia and would have been a good time for these.
• 18:20
  And that's why you've got ones that David Agu did, which people
• 18:24
  really kind of rave about these days.
• 18:28
  It's interesting where that that nostalgia is hitting now because
• 18:32
  it's the folk who are nostalgic, you know, for, for for Hartnell
• 18:37
  sort of style stories in the day and age of 2025 who are like, my
• 18:42
  age would probably just be me and Josh Snails and no one.
• 18:45
  Else I was going to say, it's old fossils like me and very few
• 18:51
  young pups like you. Yeah.
• 18:52
  Exactly like there's very like it's not the market that you you
• 18:56
  see that the styled before. It's it's it's the things that
• 19:00
  you see with the the echoes in box sets and that, you know, the
• 19:04
  the attention that the new one with the 9th Doctor and Rose is
• 19:07
  getting, for example, because that's nostalgic to us.
• 19:11
  In the same way that's the same amount of time, like 20 odd
• 19:13
  years from this book getting published for the plotters was
• 19:18
  the 70s. And so people would have had
• 19:21
  that nostalgia for those like Tom Baker style books at the
• 19:25
  time. So yeah, it's it, it has to kind
• 19:30
  of move with the times to be able to not wobble in the same
• 19:35
  nostalgia because that same nostalgia isn't what you've
• 19:40
  been, you know, like that, not just like at the time, but like
• 19:43
  new generations have came that have liked things that you found
• 19:46
  too new to broad or whatever. And actually get, I mean, a good
• 19:51
  example actually was my first virgin new adventure I actually
• 19:56
  want to think was maybe Bullet Time, the past doctor adventure
• 20:04
  from David Mckinty. Yeah.
• 20:06
  Because because I've read it and I was like, what the hell is
• 20:08
  this? Like, why is he killing or Sarah
• 20:11
  Jane? Yeah, exactly.
• 20:13
  But I always think of it as a if as a sort of like nugget in my
• 20:18
  brain that I feel slightly nostalgic for.
• 20:21
  Even though, Oh yeah, that book in itself almost was like a
• 20:25
  twang of nostalgia for something that had only just happened
• 20:28
  recently in a lot of ways. So it it it changes generally
• 20:32
  relationally. Like if the pluses came out
• 20:34
  today, I I don't know who it would be for.
• 20:39
  Yeah, I mean like. Obviously they didn't choose
• 20:41
  this one when the 50th anniversary books came out and
• 20:44
  they republished a lot of Missing and New and a couple of
• 20:49
  EDA's. But they did publish English Way
• 20:52
  of Death again, which I actually think was a lot weaker than
• 20:57
  this. And we'll talk about that as we
• 20:59
  go in. Yeah.
• 21:01
  Do you mind? You know, I think there's a
• 21:02
  YouTube series, you know, in the making.
• 21:05
  We could call it Carol and Snares, Nostalgia Twinks.
• 21:09
  What do you think? You 2 can read all the 1st
• 21:13
  Doctor Mystic adventures and PDAs and review them together.
• 21:18
  Oh, that would. Be lovely, George.
• 21:19
  If you I would, I would. I would like that.
• 21:22
  I don't know. If you're going to disagree, all
• 21:25
  right, I expect oil to be used. All right.
• 21:27
  That's all. Sorry.
• 21:32
  So the Plotters by David Agnew, yes.
• 21:35
  How? Do you think, how do you think
• 21:39
  Mr. Agnew captured our regulars then?
• 21:45
  This is this is the thing that I I might be like hot taking on is
• 21:50
  is great, like the the characterisations as a whole is,
• 21:54
  is really nice and and you know, plays to to a tee.
• 21:58
  A lot of you know, season 2 style characterisation, but it's
• 22:03
  sometimes gets a bit too smug. Not smug, but a bit to knowing a
• 22:09
  bit to knowing that this is the show that you like and the
• 22:12
  character then saying things that you would think, but that's
• 22:18
  not what they're meant to be saying.
• 22:19
  It's it's what you would be thinking in response to what
• 22:21
  their situation is, rather than. Surprising you with their
• 22:24
  reactions. It's exactly what you would
• 22:27
  expect, yeah. Like there was an example where
• 22:30
  I think it was Ian was like there was a situation with Ian
• 22:37
  and I think he says something like, well, there's no way to
• 22:41
  deal with like the TARDIS now because of it was it was quite
• 22:45
  thoughtful wall breaking in the scene.
• 22:48
  I'm trying to remember what it was now.
• 22:50
  It was I think it was like, oh, yeah, here it is.
• 22:54
  Like a familiar sinking sensation way down on them.
• 22:57
  I hardly think I'm going to faint with surprise this time.
• 23:01
  And it just felt like like, yeah, there's some of these like
• 23:05
  4th wall breaking things because were they that?
• 23:07
  Knowing in season 2, I mean, maybe in the Romans.
• 23:13
  No, even. I don't even.
• 23:14
  Think in the Romans they were they were that's referential
• 23:17
  about the the plot points that would happen within the stories
• 23:23
  because no one was it was still even at that time that was a it
• 23:28
  was still doing until probably like mid season 4.
• 23:32
  It was a show that was always experimenting.
• 23:34
  So it was hard. You'd be impossible to kind of
• 23:36
  pinpoint contrivances and repeated when it's.
• 23:40
  That too, you know, like you don't have tropes in your second
• 23:43
  year or you do. You've got an old pretty
• 23:46
  quickly. Exactly.
• 23:47
  So it felt like those sort of points have been like, oh,
• 23:50
  they're going to do that. Well, not again.
• 23:52
  It felt a bit for the fans, a bit self referential and a bit
• 23:58
  too indulgent. I mean, I could.
• 24:00
  Probably make the argument this is for the fans, but well,
• 24:03
  sometimes I don't think you give the fans what they want.
• 24:05
  I think you should surprise the fans.
• 24:07
  Like one of my big criticisms of the English word death was it
• 24:10
  captured season 17 to AT to an absolute T Yeah, it could have
• 24:15
  been broadcast in season 17. There were no surprises.
• 24:19
  And and and it was a lot of sort of recycled plot points and
• 24:22
  ideas. And I was like, yes, yeah.
• 24:25
  So Oh my God, if I want to wallow in the nostalgia of
• 24:27
  season 17, absolutely perfect. But like, and I would throw some
• 24:33
  of that criticism at the plotters as well, because you've
• 24:36
  got like Barbara and Ian in a Tavern, very the reign of
• 24:40
  terror, you know, the doctor and Vicky sneaking off like a pair
• 24:43
  of kids to go and meet somebody famous like Nero in the Romans.
• 24:48
  You know, the discussion about not interfering with history and
• 24:51
  then interfering with history and then going, Oh, well, you
• 24:54
  know, I'm sure the timeline will sort itself out and all that.
• 24:58
  So it's ticking all the boxes, but it's not breaking outside
• 25:02
  the box. No, it's, it's very much, yeah.
• 25:06
  Like you see a mismatch of different ideas from from
• 25:10
  different historicals. Yeah.
• 25:12
  Like, yeah, like you see with like Vicky dressing up as a boy
• 25:15
  or even the idea of having Catholic and Protestant
• 25:19
  discourse in in a courtroom of of, you know, royalty.
• 25:23
  Like the massacre. It's, you know, that there's
• 25:26
  ideas and themes that kind of bun are bundled into this in a
• 25:29
  lot of ways. And King.
• 25:31
  James, like for all, I think he's astoundingly good in this
• 25:35
  book. Like so funny and and like we
• 25:38
  will get on to how funny. Oh.
• 25:40
  Yes, because it is. Hilarious in places.
• 25:43
  He's basically Nero, isn't he? A bawdy sort of political hot
• 25:49
  head. Yeah, he's he's very much.
• 25:53
  I'm trying to, I've been trying to think what other characters
• 25:55
  he's been like apart from it, because he does have the comedic
• 25:58
  elements of, of of Nero. But it's it's been impossible
• 26:03
  really to to try and ground him in any of our sort of 60s
• 26:05
  characters because I just kept reading a lot of his lines like
• 26:10
  Alan coming and. You can't help it like they're.
• 26:15
  So, so virtually said. And he's, yeah, like undertoning
• 26:21
  like with like homosexuality throughout.
• 26:23
  It's, it's very much in that tone that you can read and
• 26:28
  imagine Alan Cumming to see. Oh, come on.
• 26:30
  And say you can't throw me a bone like that and then not give
• 26:33
  me something in the style of Alan Cumming.
• 26:37
  Well, this is. So Alan, because Alan Cumming,
• 26:38
  he does end the which things, he's got a very Kelvin side, a
• 26:41
  very West End Glasgow accent that's very quite, you know,
• 26:46
  something like from the plane of Mystream Brody or something.
• 26:49
  But my favorite was it's page 105 for anyone listening, and
• 26:54
  it's the scene which tries to do the Romans when Vicky's getting
• 26:57
  chased around by King James. We will say, like the Romans,
• 27:02
  it's both hilarious and hugely problematic.
• 27:05
  OK. Oh God, yeah, absolutely.
• 27:07
  It is absolutely a bit Co tailing at moments, but some of
• 27:13
  it is. It's just wonderful.
• 27:17
  Let's see what we've got. Even just looking at it, it's
• 27:22
  just. Thank you.
• 27:26
  We'll let you know. A win a winter apple, whereas
• 27:31
  you, dear Victor, smooth of cheek, are a Peach and springs
• 27:37
  initial bloom. Won't you stay stay still for me
• 27:40
  Peach. Remember fair fruits that are
• 27:44
  eaten in their prime while rot and weather off the vine.
• 27:50
  And he's just like, I'm afraid I don't fancy being peeled.
• 27:53
  I was about to propose to after that, you know, Jesus Christ,
• 27:57
  yes, I mean I kept hearing coming as well.
• 27:59
  I mean you can't help it, can you?
• 28:01
  After The weird thing is I've just done the Witch Finders
• 28:03
  literally 2 weeks ago. So I've read the Witch Finders
• 28:07
  and I read this. I was like, are they in
• 28:09
  simpatico? The cabinet is definitely there
• 28:12
  in both. I think he's he airs on the side
• 28:15
  of being a bit more serious in the Witch Finders than he does
• 28:18
  in this, but like after those. First initial scenes in the
• 28:21
  Witch finders. He is a genuine threat in terms
• 28:25
  of like his his ideas about things like witch finding which
• 28:30
  doesn't really happen here. He's very lazy.
• 28:32
  Fell in a lot of this book I did.
• 28:34
  Though to the books credit, the plotters that is, I did get more
• 28:38
  of a sense of his political worth in this.
• 28:41
  There's several, several scenes where they basically say, no, he
• 28:46
  came, he brought a lot of stability.
• 28:48
  He brought people together, united, you know, and that he
• 28:51
  did a lot of good as well as being a a total Lech around the
• 28:56
  court. God bless him.
• 28:59
  I mean, yeah, because on top of him having a lot of court
• 29:03
  intrigue regarding like, the Protestant Catholics, he's also
• 29:07
  got the speed demon twink on his lap for a lot of this book.
• 29:11
  Is it? Hay, you refer to Anthony, he.
• 29:14
  Yes, yeah, a man of. Many places.
• 29:22
  I mean, we're all over the place here, but let's just go with it.
• 29:25
  I mean, hay, right? I absolutely remembered the Hay
• 29:31
  and the Spaniards were one of the same.
• 29:34
  Right? But I totally forgotten that a
• 29:36
  Hay and Sybil the buxom bar wench were one of the same.
• 29:42
  And I'm in my notes going, oh Sybil was such a great
• 29:45
  character, so funny. And then when he revealed I felt
• 29:48
  cheated. I was like, no, I thought she
• 29:50
  was a real person. I know I genuinely like I was
• 29:54
  expecting the Spaniard twist to be honest.
• 29:56
  I think just because it's there wasn't many other characters, it
• 29:59
  could really kind of point towards Sybil was just like, are
• 30:03
  we auditioned towards all of that?
• 30:04
  And I was like, oh, I mean, sure, let's just have a full on
• 30:08
  again with the the sort of like like gender roles gain being a
• 30:16
  big mix up within this book as well.
• 30:20
  It's it's something I wasn't quite expecting to be part of
• 30:23
  the plot twists within this but and her.
• 30:25
  Dialogue and today I mean listen to this.
• 30:28
  I was up with the cock by my through she goes at one point.
• 30:34
  What what's the one she has as well when she she's she's first
• 30:37
  meeting Barbara and Ian and kind of they've offered to get some
• 30:43
  some food and drink from there and Oh yes, that's the so she
• 30:50
  says to Ian, I don't know why I'm going to give her a Cornish
• 30:53
  accent. She feels like she should have a
• 30:54
  Cornish accent or something like that.
• 30:56
  Do it. Shall I fill you up again, Sir?
• 31:00
  It will give him the vim to dance.
• 31:01
  The shaking of the streets right proper tonight.
• 31:05
  I didn't do. There's more cockney there, but
• 31:07
  there's like shaking of the of the sheets and all of this sort
• 31:10
  of stuff that just keeps coming acting.
• 31:14
  Lessons. You know, you could really tell
• 31:19
  from my lack of back sense that I can provide, like I can even
• 31:23
  provide proper Scottish ones like that one that I did for
• 31:26
  King James, the shape I was. Going to get in touch with them
• 31:29
  and get you a refund. Don't worry.
• 31:35
  And as, as we said off my right, there is there is a a good
• 31:40
  handful as well as the regulars. And we will we'll we'll sort of
• 31:43
  deal with the regulars or the jokes around them as we go
• 31:47
  along. But there's, you know, Ian falls
• 31:49
  in with a pair of Cobblers and that isn't a joke.
• 31:52
  They genuinely are a pair of Cobblers and obviously simple
• 31:58
  helps him out as well. Barbara falls in with Guy
• 32:00
  Fawkes. The doctor is having many an
• 32:05
  argument with the two historians that are rewriting the King
• 32:09
  James Bible. Yeah.
• 32:11
  Otley and Howarden it was. Great.
• 32:16
  Oh boy. And obviously Vicky is sort of
• 32:19
  in and out with the King and the Chamberlain.
• 32:22
  So there's, there's loads happening here, isn't there?
• 32:25
  Like, I don't think there's any time to get bored.
• 32:28
  No, and, and the great thing is that is that you can imagine
• 32:30
  these characters within the context of like a season 2
• 32:33
  story, like like the Chamberlain, for example, you
• 32:37
  can imagine I'm huffing around and being a bit out of breath
• 32:39
  and you can't. The Chamberlain.
• 32:42
  Did I, oh, do what? That's a good, that is a good
• 32:45
  point. I should I should have cast
• 32:47
  them. I did.
• 32:48
  Know the fellow from the crusade who goes a boy dressed as a
• 32:52
  girl. What's the world coming to?
• 32:54
  I just saw him. The the one who's the the
• 32:58
  Chamberlain within the Crusades, That's the one.
• 33:01
  Yes, it's another cliche of the era.
• 33:05
  Well, I was thinking about, you see the guy who's who sells
• 33:10
  them, who's trying to flog the wires and says the doctor and
• 33:14
  Vicky have stolen them. Oh yes.
• 33:17
  Silks, satin, satin. 'S wonderful silks Batman.
• 33:22
  I was imagining him kind of, you know, being so like out of
• 33:27
  breath and like, flustered because he's very faster than
• 33:31
  that. Is he the one that?
• 33:32
  Says I'll dress up Vicky like a veritable strutting Peacock,
• 33:36
  that one. That's, that's the Chamberlain
• 33:38
  within the crusade, I think. Oh yeah.
• 33:40
  Oh, the dialogue's so great. In that story, isn't it?
• 33:43
  But he's vaping that as well here, right?
• 33:45
  The the richness of the dialogue.
• 33:48
  Oh yeah. I mean, it, it tries to do in in
• 33:51
  the similar vein of like, yeah, where the crusade tries to to be
• 33:56
  of that, of that time. There's a lot of that within how
• 34:00
  in in in particular, like Lord Salisbury and like Cecil and his
• 34:06
  languages being the more statesman figure the the kind of
• 34:11
  the the the comedic St. almost to a lot of the sort of folly
• 34:15
  that happens around in this story because he's there to try
• 34:19
  and drive his political idea. Why was it King James's last
• 34:23
  thing after Victor and such? We try.
• 34:26
  Hard as I might though, I can't imagine this line in the
• 34:29
  Crusade. I pray for a monarch that can
• 34:32
  ignore the pulse things of their groin.
• 34:39
  I mean, this is a Carry On movie, right?
• 34:41
  Isn't it at? One point, there's a line that
• 34:44
  says it's, you know, I think it says Carry on performing or
• 34:48
  something like that. But it's it's always like
• 34:49
  capitalized in the same way that they would do say in a Carry On
• 34:53
  movie where they say the title of the of the film with Carry
• 34:56
  on, whatever. And I was like, that's the Carry
• 34:58
  On title for this book. Chapter 7 and I don't want you
• 35:01
  to get excited when I say this. Chapter 7 is called Intrigue
• 35:05
  down below. I mean, that's a carry on title
• 35:08
  if ever I've heard one. Exactly.
• 35:11
  Like there's, there's a lot of of that sort of leadiness
• 35:16
  throughout the book from us, so many characters.
• 35:19
  Yeah. And see, I don't really like
• 35:21
  that sort of thing, you know, I try, not always.
• 35:24
  You have a straight edge, straight edge, serious drama
• 35:27
  this is that's what you want to me having.
• 35:29
  This conversation with you today, so thank you for, you
• 35:32
  know, guiding me through it exactly.
• 35:34
  I mean, you don't want scenes where the serious head of state
• 35:38
  is meant to be having very serious dialogue, but instead
• 35:42
  you you end up with things such as how now, Ganymede, you can't
• 35:47
  know if you don't like a thing until you've tried it.
• 35:51
  Dip a little toe in the water and you know, who knows, you
• 35:55
  might soon be swimming like a duck.
• 36:02
  Do you know what? I was taking tips when I was
• 36:03
  reading this? No, I'll never use that one.
• 36:08
  Jesus Christ. Yeah.
• 36:10
  Yes. Wow, yes, that's hell of a I
• 36:13
  think it's things. You can only get way when you're
• 36:14
  a monarch rather than trying to use it on the streets like
• 36:18
  sorry. I mean, I'm sorry to divert you
• 36:19
  away from the book for a second. What's like the worst, come on,
• 36:22
  you've ever tried with somebody? Do you know what I was?
• 36:25
  And I can't believe I'm going to admit this to you on camera.
• 36:28
  That is, I said to the person, my God, I think it was a coat.
• 36:35
  I thought I'd heard it in a movie and I thought, I'm just
• 36:37
  going to try it. I went.
• 36:38
  That coat looks very becoming on you.
• 36:40
  Why don't you take it off and put me on and then I'll be
• 36:44
  coming. Needless to say, we did not go
• 36:50
  home together. Oh, come on.
• 36:52
  What's yours? What's your worst?
• 36:55
  Wolf. One chance.
• 36:58
  We'll get a chance to do it in a book club episode, you know,
• 37:01
  true. I'm not a naturally flirtatious
• 37:04
  person. I've been trying to think of you
• 37:05
  could have. Fooled me, Jesus Christ.
• 37:10
  I know with that lustrous readings of King James, maybe
• 37:13
  that's what I should do. Maybe I'll just I'll go around
• 37:16
  different clubs and just read different pieces of dialogue
• 37:18
  from King James. Whatever you do, see what you
• 37:21
  got to anyone and call. Them a Nubian Prince, all right.
• 37:23
  Please don't do that, whatever you do.
• 37:27
  Oh boy. Or.
• 37:28
  Or, or just dismiss their wee lassie that's sitting beside
• 37:32
  them so that I could sneak in. Yeah.
• 37:35
  Get rid of a white Well, it depends actually, with today
• 37:37
  you're fancying boys or girls, but you can say like you know,
• 37:40
  you ladies with your innate gossip, please go and gossip
• 37:43
  over there. I'm talking to this gentleman.
• 37:45
  Or vice versa. Where was your heart with this
• 37:48
  book then? Was your heart more with the
• 37:50
  Doctor and Vicky in the court of King James?
• 37:53
  Was it with Barbara and Guy Fawkes, you know, in the
• 37:56
  political machinations, or Ian and the fabulous Cobblers, the
• 38:00
  two heroes of the book, sort of trying to bring down all the
• 38:05
  plot and say Barbara? Oh, I was probably there more
• 38:08
  with like the Doctor and Vicky just because like, yeah, with
• 38:11
  dialogue like that, whenever King James wasn't in that
• 38:14
  chapter, I was asking where is King James?
• 38:17
  I want, I want to know what he's going to be saying next in a lot
• 38:21
  of this book. But it was also because that's
• 38:24
  where a lot of the layers of drama was as well, because like
• 38:27
  the actually the doctor is just a a very big nosy gossip as well
• 38:33
  and would have joined the wee lassies for the gossip because
• 38:36
  that's really what the first talk is to like about in a lot
• 38:39
  of ways for the historical adventures.
• 38:42
  And it got perfect. Didn't he?
• 38:43
  That the fact that he is just like, a naughty school kid?
• 38:46
  Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's
• 38:47
  all bluster and like, you know, how dare you?
• 38:49
  And then the second they're away, he's like, OK, let's go.
• 38:53
  Yeah, exactly. Like he gets away with so much
• 38:56
  in this and it shows that as much as he's physically the much
• 39:02
  older doctor, he just uses that as a as a facade.
• 39:05
  And really it's just such a childish we guy just wanting to
• 39:08
  get into different places, hear what the gossip is and kind of
• 39:12
  bluster his way through and seeing that side of the doctor
• 39:16
  it, it was just really, you can imagine Hartnell loving it
• 39:20
  because because I watched the Romans last week just to get a
• 39:23
  flavor. And I think it's genuinely his
• 39:25
  best performance. He's having the.
• 39:27
  Best time. He's loving it.
• 39:29
  He just the small quirks of almost like someone talks about
• 39:33
  how Trouting is a physical actor in a lot of ways.
• 39:37
  How no in the Romans is one of the is the best physical comedic
• 39:42
  performances of the Doctor going from you know, him fighting with
• 39:46
  the the guy without a talk. Oh, you want?
• 39:49
  To fight, do you? To all this thing of him kind of
• 39:53
  fumbling a sword in a sauna, did you ever?
• 39:56
  Expect to see the 1st doctor in a gay sauna like that.
• 40:01
  I know it was and I don't. I think that's the first.
• 40:04
  It's one of the few times we've seen the Doctor half naked in
• 40:08
  some form, and this heart know that we see at first.
• 40:12
  Chicken chest. Although didn't you love his
• 40:16
  lime reading of, you know, when poor Barbara has been, you know,
• 40:20
  sexually chased around the streets?
• 40:22
  And he goes, oh, I wanted to chat with Susan Nero, but he
• 40:25
  seems to be rather busy. And then he just goes.
• 40:28
  His timing is impeccable. Exactly.
• 40:32
  And you could see exactly the same happening here, because he
• 40:34
  has that same lack of care for Vicky when she's getting chased
• 40:39
  and for her peril of trying to pass as a boy.
• 40:43
  Doesn't even say. Can't you?
• 40:45
  Just, you know, lead him on a bit and then maybe we'll get
• 40:47
  somewhere. Yeah.
• 40:49
  And he's just like, oh, wow. And it's like, no, what is?
• 40:52
  Because she would just be rumbled.
• 40:53
  And. And so it's just that same sort
• 40:56
  of lack of care he had for Barbara's getting chased around
• 40:59
  in the Romans that happens here. Just eat it up.
• 41:03
  Yeah. And I think he would love it.
• 41:06
  But I, I mean, like, as much as we've said like it falls into a
• 41:10
  lot of the cliches of the time or what we expect from the time.
• 41:13
  I do think every line they gave the 1st Doctor in this was just,
• 41:18
  I mean, imagine Hartnell clutching his lapel saying this.
• 41:21
  You ready? Gentlemen, Gentlemen, please.
• 41:24
  There's hardly need for the Oh, I can't even say the word.
• 41:29
  How'd you say that aprobibrium of over this treacle trifle?
• 41:35
  I'm very impressed with your progress.
• 41:36
  Why, if you've reached Jeremiah, there is much 'cause to rejoice.
• 41:41
  Only another few books to go before the New Testament, and
• 41:44
  from there it will be pain sailing.
• 41:45
  Gentlemen, I could just hear him saying it all.
• 41:49
  Exactly. And I think one of the few
• 41:51
  things we have sort of top literal toilet humour and Doctor
• 41:55
  Who as well, where he's asking for a bowl.
• 41:58
  I was like, yes, excuse me, I have, I have a rather sudden
• 42:03
  need of a chamber pot. Do you understand?
• 42:05
  And the God has to go and fetch it and such.
• 42:08
  And you could just imagine him playing it so well in terms of
• 42:13
  trying to be that flustered intentionally rather than what
• 42:17
  is sometimes put on in this book.
• 42:20
  Because to be honest, there's maybe one too many heart, No
• 42:23
  fluff written within the book. Yeah.
• 42:26
  It was, it was all over the missing adventures whenever he
• 42:29
  turned up that, you know, Chatterton.
• 42:31
  Chesterton. Yeah.
• 42:33
  Yeah, which it's fine because it is.
• 42:36
  It's it's it's a blunt tool to make kids realise, yes, this is
• 42:40
  meant to be hard over here. But I'm like, he wasn't always
• 42:43
  like that. He he it may be 1A story at
• 42:46
  best, like he wouldn't he's not fluffing his lines all the time.
• 42:50
  It's the one of the things that get someone else sometimes that
• 42:52
  people think that's always about is a bumbling sexist whatever.
• 42:57
  When nice he's he's he's he's like a young gossiper at heart
• 43:02
  in an old man's body and I love it when.
• 43:04
  People write him clever as well, and he's really smart in this,
• 43:08
  you know, he's there with an immediate disguise to get in
• 43:10
  with that mangy old horse. And then he has really
• 43:14
  intelligent dialogues with the guys that are right in the the
• 43:17
  King James Bible. He sort of deftly works his way
• 43:20
  through all the court intrigue that's going on, you know,
• 43:23
  figures out the, the plot that's happening.
• 43:26
  I just like, I like the first doctor to be sort of the
• 43:29
  smartest person in the room whilst acting the fool.
• 43:32
  And I I got a sense of that here.
• 43:34
  Yeah, definitely. Like he, he constantly has, it
• 43:38
  takes him a bit of time to get used to the characters around
• 43:41
  him. And that's, it's also part of I
• 43:43
  think the first doctor too, because like, you know, when he,
• 43:46
  when he first meets the, the, the kind of double actor Otley
• 43:50
  and Howden who are making the King James Bible and they're
• 43:52
  asking very particular theological questions.
• 43:56
  It's like, oh, there's the case on both sides or whatever.
• 43:59
  And they're just like, one thing we both hate is sending
• 44:02
  equivocation. And that's exactly what you're
• 44:03
  doing. And so he he ends up trying to
• 44:06
  busted his way through, not always succeeding, which is the
• 44:10
  joy of it as well, because a lot of the time he he he might have
• 44:14
  one or two successes and it goes to his head and he then kind of
• 44:19
  falls see him. Puffing out his chest and then
• 44:22
  the blow comes. He's like, oh, you know, got his
• 44:25
  fingers on his mouth going all to you, you know?
• 44:28
  Exactly like all these things and kind of near the end with
• 44:32
  the exorcism of the tortoise where he's he's trying to put it
• 44:38
  off for so long to try and just make it look like it's something
• 44:43
  that King James wanted to have happened.
• 44:45
  Do you know what right I? Would kill a handful of Doctor
• 44:47
  Who fans to see William Hartnell, Maureen O'Brien and
• 44:51
  Jacqueline Hill act out that scene where they're exercising
• 44:54
  the Sardis? I would have been wonderful
• 44:59
  someone. 'S got the bell, someone's got
• 45:01
  the book, and someone's sprinkling holy water, right?
• 45:04
  Yeah. Vicky's read, Vicky's trying to
• 45:08
  ring the bell quite badly, Barbara's reading out Latin very
• 45:12
  badly, and everyone around her who knows Latin is looking
• 45:16
  unconfused and the Doctor's like just blessing the TARDIS over
• 45:20
  and over for about. I think it was only for multiple
• 45:22
  hours like a many events if it was on.
• 45:26
  TV, you could just keep cutting back to it and they're still
• 45:28
  going round, you know, like I did.
• 45:31
  Like though, you know, you said about Howden, Howden and Notley,
• 45:34
  Is that what they're called? The two scholars, Howden and
• 45:36
  Notley? Yeah.
• 45:37
  Yeah. When he realises what they're up
• 45:39
  to right in that book, that they're doing all the best bits.
• 45:41
  Listen to this. You mean you're skipping?
• 45:44
  You're skipping bits, said Vicky.
• 45:47
  The doctor goes the burning Bush, the Whiting on the walls,
• 45:50
  Sodom and Gomorrah, all the more colourful sections.
• 45:54
  And then Howden goes, well, you know, why would you like to be
• 45:57
  stuck on the big guards week after week?
• 45:59
  The doctor goes, then you've got to die and leave some other poor
• 46:02
  soul to finish the boring sections.
• 46:04
  Yeah, that's exactly what they're doing.
• 46:07
  Yeah, I mean, and this is the this is the thing about it with
• 46:09
  the human things like that. The the double as it were with
• 46:14
  with them with with the two Cobblers and and King James as
• 46:18
  well. Like there's there's a sort of
• 46:23
  humour level that things that you wouldn't have saw since the
• 46:26
  myth makers as well, which I think is a kind of touchstone as
• 46:30
  well for basically having a lot of that, the humour, but also
• 46:34
  the themes of the discourse about Catholics and Protestants
• 46:38
  from Season 3 as well with the massacre.
• 46:40
  But with the characters of Season 2, it feels like as much
• 46:45
  as it says on the back of the cover or this is a story set
• 46:47
  between, you know, the Space Museum and the chase.
• 46:51
  If they kept their contracts going and they went into Season
• 46:54
  3 and Torch and whales were doing this, this, it feels like
• 46:57
  a torch and whales era, sort of historical.
• 47:03
  There's a lot. Of history in it.
• 47:04
  There's a lot of detail in it. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 47:06
  As well as the joke. But I say with the humour, it's
• 47:09
  like Mr. Agnew is probably as witty as Dennis Spooner.
• 47:14
  I don't think he's as sophisticated as Oh God I've
• 47:19
  forgotten his name. Who wrote the myth makers?
• 47:22
  Donald Cotton. Donald Cotton, I'd say he's.
• 47:24
  Probably somewhere in the middle between the two of them, but
• 47:26
  that's still a high bar. When it comes to comedy, it is.
• 47:30
  I guess it's because it's, yeah, I think everyone talks about it
• 47:33
  being a more something like the myth makers to be more highbrow
• 47:39
  in terms of your reading and knowledge to get some of the
• 47:42
  jokes and such. That isn't that with with
• 47:45
  thinness. It's just the level of constant
• 47:50
  amounts of humour that's been thrown around and, and, and a
• 47:54
  lot of this because he's, yeah, he's not like that sort of level
• 47:59
  of higher intellectual humour. It's it's the same thing you
• 48:01
  might see in the Shakespeare code when he wrote that when
• 48:04
  he's when they go there and they're thinking, oh,
• 48:06
  Shakespeare is going to be all like very high fluting and
• 48:10
  everyone's just like, shut your. Big fat mouth or whatever it is.
• 48:16
  You're going to hear beautiful. Shakespearean words hi, noni,
• 48:21
  noni, or way of recess. Yeah, exactly.
• 48:25
  So so it has like that sort of level thing about, but it's just
• 48:28
  like the consistent level of it that you see in something like
• 48:32
  the Myth Makers perhaps. And yeah, I did.
• 48:35
  The myth makers for the book club about a year ago.
• 48:39
  And I really have to work to understand that book.
• 48:43
  But as a result, it's it's still my number one of all the books
• 48:47
  I've covered. It's such a clever bit of work.
• 48:50
  And if you put the time into the jokes, they just keep giving.
• 48:54
  They're so clever. Whereas the plotters and I
• 48:59
  can't, I cannot stress enough how deliriously enjoyable I
• 49:02
  found this book to read. Yeah, but it was a much simpler
• 49:06
  read. Like I didn't really have to
• 49:07
  think very hard. Like the jokes were either very
• 49:11
  obviously spelled out to me or, you know, the history was
• 49:15
  delivered as a bit of a lecture or exposition.
• 49:18
  Like you. You don't really have to go
• 49:20
  digging, no. No.
• 49:22
  And it's delivered, I dare say that much more accessible way.
• 49:26
  Even something like the massacre, as well as a lot of
• 49:31
  the core energy is more serious and things like the massacre.
• 49:33
  Well, this is the the seriousness of the court drama
• 49:38
  is under not under undermined, but it is cut through with a
• 49:44
  sort of, you know, comedic line from King James or some sort of
• 49:50
  like blush stuff from the doctor or something else that happens
• 49:54
  that that keeps it going in a different way and makes that
• 49:58
  sort of plot line kind of more exchangeable to know about.
• 50:01
  Because I don't know much about this apart from Yep, the
• 50:04
  gunpowder plot. It's like 16 hundreds that
• 50:08
  happened. I didn't know much about
• 50:10
  details. I.
• 50:10
  Didn't know the sort of the motivations behind it or
• 50:14
  anything. So I learned a bit here as well.
• 50:15
  You know, I was sort of writing out.
• 50:17
  I felt as if I was back at school writing out in my
• 50:19
  exercise book, you know, because it was in great big chunks.
• 50:22
  I was going, oh, great. Yeah, Catholics, Protestants,
• 50:24
  Right. Starting war of Europe.
• 50:25
  OK, Yeah, yeah. So I was learning, yeah.
• 50:28
  Exactly and antibodies when I was reading through it and when
• 50:31
  we were because we for the lessons we were meant to
• 50:35
  initially record this on the 12th of July and as a Glaswegian
• 50:38
  where sick together and is rife with Protestants and Catholics
• 50:43
  and the 12th of July is a big day for one side of the city.
• 50:48
  I was like of all things and all days to try and talk about
• 50:52
  you'll be hearing much as outside my flat voice.
• 50:54
  It goes on and I don't know if there'll be for my.
• 50:57
  Administration errors then. But it was it was interesting
• 51:02
  how much of that was helped to be fleshed out in this book,
• 51:05
  because I I really wasn't really aware as much about the the
• 51:08
  history of it when it came to that sort of angles within this
• 51:13
  within this book. But it was it was great to have
• 51:15
  it definitely an. Element of those Hartnell
• 51:17
  historicals wasn't it was to teach like that was part of the
• 51:20
  rebate of the historicals. But I really did like the fact
• 51:24
  that in season 2 because the historicals in season 1 are so
• 51:28
  earnest they're great but they're so serious.
• 51:31
  You know history is a horror to be trapped in and then comes
• 51:34
  series 2. You know, we're doing sex
• 51:35
  comedy. It comes series 3, The doctors
• 51:38
  design and a bloody catapult to send people over a wall like
• 51:42
  story on history. But that sort of fusion of
• 51:44
  comedy and education, I think it's pretty potent.
• 51:50
  Yeah, it's, it's the best way to do it in terms of because I
• 51:52
  think there's a story from, what's his name, the guy who
• 51:58
  wrote Farewell Great Macedonia, John Dorney.
• 52:04
  The guy originally. The guy.
• 52:05
  Yeah, yeah, the guy who wrote it.
• 52:07
  I can't remember his name right now.
• 52:09
  Great. Script though, yeah.
• 52:11
  But I think he was, he said in some sort of interview about
• 52:13
  how, you know, essentially why that script wasn't taken was
• 52:17
  because like folk and the production team have seen, we've
• 52:21
  had complaints from teachers saying they've been writing
• 52:24
  history essays of Marco Polo with the doctor in it.
• 52:28
  And the issue is that it's a fairly straight story, something
• 52:31
  like Marco Polo, probably great if we saw it, but it's, it's the
• 52:35
  straightness of the history is there with the straightness of
• 52:39
  the acting of the of the sci-fi characters.
• 52:42
  But in some kind of like the Romans, it's very much
• 52:45
  contrasted with like here's the comedy of, of the of the time as
• 52:49
  well as comedy. So it's much more contrasting by
• 52:52
  by showing the contrast of these people with with light
• 52:56
  heartedness, with jokes and a level of kind of like coverage
• 53:03
  to make sure you're not doing a pure historical drama production
• 53:07
  for kids so that kids don't think, Oh yeah, that's Emperor
• 53:10
  Nero and his, you know, liar player, Doctor Who from the
• 53:15
  history books. It helps to kind of separate
• 53:19
  that better version of. History to me, you know the
• 53:24
  letters they were getting then when they did the response
• 53:27
  today, you know, they started bringing out the massacre and
• 53:28
  things like, dear Sir, one of my students went out and massacred
• 53:32
  a load of Huguenots. Please, can you go back to Ryan
• 53:35
  comedies please? What about being a Barbara then?
• 53:41
  They were so sweet. It was genuinely some of the
• 53:45
  best because it's one part that we were talking earlier about
• 53:49
  nostalgia and how there's waves of nostalgia and when when it
• 53:56
  came to Doctor Who being shown on Twitch, what, five years ago
• 54:00
  or something like that, and the warmth that new fans were
• 54:03
  feeling about Teen and Barbara 1965 stuff and all of that.
• 54:08
  Like it felt like a new wave of people got to appreciate their
• 54:12
  relationship. And it's not something that's
• 54:15
  seen or fizzles as much on screen.
• 54:18
  I mean, the Romans again, it's a great example of of their their
• 54:22
  fondness for each other when they're literally sitting around
• 54:25
  this big house themselves and the personal moments is really
• 54:31
  touching and you feel for them when you reunite at the end.
• 54:34
  That's the exact same feelings that are replicated in this, you
• 54:38
  know, when they get split away and they're going through the
• 54:42
  different trials and tribulations and the warmth that
• 54:45
  you feel of them reuniting. Like I think it says about how
• 54:49
  Barbara was kind of holding them that bit more closer and such
• 54:54
  and you you feel for them in such a way that you really would
• 54:58
  with other kind of non like more platonic companions like as they
• 55:05
  were technically meant to be, but they really one.
• 55:08
  I mean, it's it, it was their journey at the start, wasn't it?
• 55:11
  It was less Doctor Who. It was more Ian and Bob.
• 55:14
  Yeah, right. And until they left, then
• 55:17
  obviously it's all about the Doctor at that point.
• 55:19
  He, he's the hero and it's whoever's hanging about with
• 55:22
  him. I think they realised that
• 55:25
  Jackie Hill and William Russell, they were never going to run as
• 55:27
  a couple, but you can see the chemistry between the two of
• 55:30
  them. They were always going to go
• 55:32
  together, right. And I think fans that ship, it's
• 55:37
  there for the picking. And I can understand why in this
• 55:40
  book, you know, Gareth, oops, sorry, David Agnew has gone.
• 55:44
  I'll bleed something in there. Some rude line from King James.
• 55:49
  You can see. Why?
• 55:50
  He makes a suggestion that Ian has to pose as Barbara's husband
• 55:56
  at one point and he sort of looks apologetically at her and
• 55:59
  she don't mind at all. But this is the thing, like as
• 56:03
  much as that's just a surface level line for them, for their
• 56:06
  disguise, the earnestness he has and determination he has to save
• 56:11
  Barbara throughout this. Like he goes so desperate to the
• 56:14
  Cobblers to get their help, to try and find her.
• 56:18
  They treat it as a sort of night's quest for him in a lot
• 56:22
  of ways when they when they talk about it too.
• 56:24
  And he has that sort of serious determination, like as much as
• 56:28
  the lot of comedy for his book. And those Cobblers do provide it
• 56:30
  too. Like Ian is the most serious
• 56:33
  character I think in this book because he is.
• 56:36
  He is so determined to save Barbara.
• 56:39
  That's his drive and the plot one with.
• 56:42
  The most heart, like you say, is exactly, yeah, sort of the
• 56:45
  beating heart of the book. And it's it's, it's where a lot
• 56:48
  of the beating heart of of the show was at that time as well.
• 56:51
  So it's great to see that hating the bit to be a bit of the kind
• 56:55
  of focus for a lot of the book. I mean, you don't.
• 56:59
  Bring in William Russell from Camelot, you know, and don't
• 57:02
  make him the hero of the show, no.
• 57:04
  Exactly. And you could, again, there's
• 57:07
  scenes that you could just imagine him performing perfectly
• 57:11
  when it comes to like walking in the cobbler scene, like having a
• 57:16
  side quest of needing to mop up like the Cobblers yards and
• 57:20
  stuff. Like he does so much of that
• 57:23
  sort of stuff that he doesn't need to, but he he's he's there
• 57:27
  to earn earnest friends to help him on his quest.
• 57:31
  And yeah, it feels like a true sort of, yeah.
• 57:34
  Journey of a quest, I mean. Jesus Christ, you know if you
• 57:36
  was kidnapped by Guy Fawkes I would be as concerned.
• 57:39
  You know, I would be scooping up manure like you wouldn't believe
• 57:43
  to try and rescue you from his clutches.
• 57:46
  He was. He was very horny by the way as
• 57:49
  well. Who was?
• 57:50
  Guy. Fawkes, OH.
• 57:52
  I know he he thought Barbara was a bit of all right, didn't he?
• 57:55
  Like. Literally as soon as like they
• 57:58
  so because Guy Fawkes, you know, essentially takes her away
• 58:02
  because she thinks she knows more of the plot than than you.
• 58:06
  Were specific, then that sounded like a euphemism.
• 58:09
  Take the. Chaser away.
• 58:11
  Well, I mean, he kind of does as well, don't they?
• 58:14
  Wait. Up in bed together and she goes.
• 58:15
  Thank God we're fully clothed. Exactly, but the way that he
• 58:20
  sort of talks about, you know, it's like it's not a thing a man
• 58:23
  should usually speak of before a lady.
• 58:26
  But I have known many, many women.
• 58:28
  The battlefield makes a fellow first for love.
• 58:31
  And I have taken a full swig from Aphrodite's bottle.
• 58:35
  None as fair as you. It's like Aphrodite.
• 58:40
  'S bottle. He's he's suckered from that.
• 58:43
  I mean, have you seen Jacqueline Hill?
• 58:45
  That's enough to turn my head. All right.
• 58:48
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 58:48
  Yeah. Beauty.
• 58:49
  Statuesque, I call her just just like a like a Greek goddess.
• 58:55
  Absolutely. What about Buffon?
• 58:56
  Obviously there's the. Fighting couple of the 1960s,
• 58:59
  Izina and Barbara. Oh boy, they are.
• 59:02
  They are. I did love the Cobblers as well.
• 59:04
  When the Cobblers then turn round towards the end and go
• 59:08
  like, yeah, we're going to come. We're going to help you get
• 59:10
  Barbara back. You need to be reunited with
• 59:12
  your wife. I was just like, punch him.
• 59:14
  Yeah, go. No, I love his pair.
• 59:15
  I love him. I know because because I mean
• 59:19
  they're the sort of proper in the scene we were talking about,
• 59:23
  like the Shakespeare code where like they arrive and they think
• 59:26
  it's all going to be a Shakespearean language and
• 59:28
  everyone is just like why? And they are the perfect example
• 59:32
  from the get go because, you know, Ian and Barbara initially
• 59:35
  wanted to go see a Shakespeare play and they go to a bar which
• 59:39
  has these two that speak in the most sort of like course way
• 59:45
  immediately to them. Like there's a bit where they
• 59:53
  they've just literally introduced each other just to
• 59:58
  get into the bar and they realise they are a bit more
• 1:00:01
  uppity, perhaps because they're from the 1960s, got RP accents
• 1:00:04
  and all of that. And Barbara just asks is anybody
• 1:00:10
  serving here? The man laughed and nudged his
• 1:00:12
  companion in the ribs. I and twas the same question
• 1:00:15
  that came to my mind when I first saw you yourself.
• 1:00:18
  Good mistress. He chuckled fraughtily.
• 1:00:23
  Like you've got quite an. Education.
• 1:00:25
  Read in this book all these lines you've written down.
• 1:00:28
  I know I've got all the all the pick up lines that I'm sure do
• 1:00:31
  not try that. One all right.
• 1:00:33
  I'd be getting everywhere around in 1605 I'm sure, but by.
• 1:00:38
  The end of this call I should be saying I'll pray that my Co host
• 1:00:42
  here can ignore the pulse things of his groin for God's sake.
• 1:00:47
  But but you know, like it's as much as you think at first when
• 1:00:51
  I was reading those lines, they could they could also have been
• 1:00:54
  the two that could have kidnapped Barbara and Ian.
• 1:00:57
  If if they took Guy Fawkes's side in that argument in the
• 1:01:00
  pub, like you could have seen them equally just as be the bad
• 1:01:04
  guys that were needing to Ian would have to try and save
• 1:01:08
  Barbara from it just so happens it falls the other way.
• 1:01:13
  And the great thing about it, it was just, it didn't just make
• 1:01:18
  them other sort of like rough guys in a pub who would never
• 1:01:22
  help anyone. They, they, they go on a loving
• 1:01:24
  journey and kind of in the end are one of the good double acts
• 1:01:28
  in the book. I've been.
• 1:01:29
  Those scenes in the pub, I was getting pangs of the end of the
• 1:01:33
  Reign of Terror and I was definitely getting pangs of the
• 1:01:36
  star of the massacre when Stevens in the bar and there's
• 1:01:39
  some political discussion there. But I was also because Ian sort
• 1:01:44
  of ends up with like a pair of just like every men.
• 1:01:49
  Yeah, I was getting sort of pangs of Delos from the Romans,
• 1:01:52
  where he gets like, a pal that helps him out on his adventure.
• 1:01:55
  So again, it was just this whole melting pot of stuff from the
• 1:01:58
  era. Well, no exactly.
• 1:02:01
  But as much as as I was saying about like the casting that we
• 1:02:07
  might have for some of these these sort of people, I could I
• 1:02:13
  could very much imagine like Tony Selby be one of the sort of
• 1:02:17
  two guys in the pub and giving a sort of glitz style sort of
• 1:02:20
  performance to it all. So I would have yeah, I would
• 1:02:24
  have loved that. We'll.
• 1:02:25
  Help you? All right.
• 1:02:26
  But only for a few grot seats. All right, great.
• 1:02:30
  Well, OK, So what about the death of Guy Fawkes?
• 1:02:36
  Because I'd forgotten that happened.
• 1:02:38
  I was like, excuse me? Yes, I genuinely was one of the
• 1:02:44
  few times I've actually had to stop reading a book.
• 1:02:46
  I can actually almost gasp to reading it thinking how what?
• 1:02:50
  And I had to try and think how much of this book is like,
• 1:02:53
  surely they're not going to do some sort of, because everything
• 1:02:57
  I heard about it was to be a historic book.
• 1:02:59
  It's not going to do some sort of time travelling Spacey thing.
• 1:03:03
  They're going to just deal with that.
• 1:03:06
  And the way it played out, it was it was really nice.
• 1:03:10
  I could have genuinely imagined the cliffhanger happened at
• 1:03:12
  Glove, like Guy Fawkes getting killed on the ground and the
• 1:03:18
  fade to black as the credits start to roll up as maybe Ian
• 1:03:21
  says off camera that you've killed Guy Fawkes and I'll just
• 1:03:27
  go up. It'd be a.
• 1:03:29
  Great cliffhanger it would have. Been it would have been great,
• 1:03:32
  but I I was genuinely unsure how it was going to land, how to
• 1:03:37
  could find a way that would slot everything back into history.
• 1:03:40
  And it was quite a clever bit of writing of making sure that
• 1:03:46
  there wasn't enough crossover with the plotting freaks as it
• 1:03:50
  well with Cecil within the court and how much he knew about the
• 1:03:57
  the plotters and who and how much people knew about the
• 1:04:01
  plotters and how much people knew about Guy Fawkes and how
• 1:04:03
  much the king knew about Guy Fawkes to be able to get away
• 1:04:05
  with someone else in particular, someone who was the king might
• 1:04:09
  also recognise as Guy Fawkes. I thought I.
• 1:04:13
  Thought because we'd already introduced the idea of disguises
• 1:04:18
  and we would go on to introduce a further twist about disguises
• 1:04:23
  that I was like, OK, someone is going to be mistaken for guy
• 1:04:26
  source. Like, I wasn't sure who, but I
• 1:04:28
  thought, well, that's, you know, because that is absolutely going
• 1:04:31
  to be, you know, a pinpoint in the historical Atlas and that
• 1:04:35
  isn't going to change. Well, OK, I suppose the time is
• 1:04:39
  here then for us to finally talk about poor Vicky, or should I
• 1:04:44
  say Victor. Do as much as I was saying
• 1:04:48
  earlier is that where my heart was for a lot of like following
• 1:04:53
  the book defective. Just see some of the more
• 1:04:55
  company between James and such. Vicky was the weakest regular in
• 1:05:01
  this book. She's she's much stronger in so
• 1:05:08
  many other stories in the actual show as as well.
• 1:05:12
  I feel at least then what she's made out to be.
• 1:05:15
  I think in fan memory, in particular in fan memory
• 1:05:18
  probably in the 90s as well, because a lot of this book that
• 1:05:22
  this points where she's she's so gullible.
• 1:05:25
  She's so we just. Did with that role, isn't she?
• 1:05:30
  Because Ian and Barbara are going to be that gullible and
• 1:05:32
  the Doctor isn't going to be that gullible.
• 1:05:33
  So it's like, well, it's the kid, obviously.
• 1:05:36
  Yeah, but there's things like basic sort of things that she's
• 1:05:41
  she's falling for or, and at one point is, is breaking down in
• 1:05:46
  front of the doctor because she she's not able to stand up for
• 1:05:51
  herself or something like this. And I, I just, I don't see Vicky
• 1:05:56
  like that in a lot of ways. Like she still had her old
• 1:05:59
  agency and and a lot of her stories, especially when she was
• 1:06:03
  in Space Museum. When she was like revolution.
• 1:06:06
  Like, yeah, literally. Yeah, she reads the revolution
• 1:06:08
  there. Even even in the crusading
• 1:06:11
  extent where she's she tries to be, she's not as like wrapped up
• 1:06:21
  in cotton wool like she is in this in a lot of ways, in terms
• 1:06:27
  of how kind of naivety about things like if you she's, she's
• 1:06:31
  not as wise to our situations in this.
• 1:06:35
  And it's a bit of a caricature of her, which is a bit of a
• 1:06:37
  shame. But sometimes the plot required
• 1:06:41
  someone to not she is as ways she is.
• 1:06:46
  Boxed into that slightly problematic role of being, you
• 1:06:51
  know, the victim of the sex pestery, which it's never really
• 1:06:56
  a great idea to go down that angle ever.
• 1:06:58
  But it was a weird trope in early on or vase or in keys of
• 1:07:04
  Mariners. The the Vikings in with Edith
• 1:07:07
  in. You know that there's the
• 1:07:09
  entertainment. Of Romans as well.
• 1:07:10
  There's there's some pretty, we'll never do that again,
• 1:07:14
  hopefully stuff that happened there.
• 1:07:17
  So I don't think he's not right to put it in there because it
• 1:07:20
  was absolutely a part of the era.
• 1:07:22
  And I, you know, forgive me. King James's lines are very
• 1:07:27
  funny. They are outrageous at times.
• 1:07:31
  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it was something that it was.
• 1:07:36
  It was something to help try and make sure that King James was
• 1:07:40
  still on side in the plot by having him lust over factor I
• 1:07:44
  guess. Not on the side with the plot,
• 1:07:47
  but just totally like diverted from the main plot because all
• 1:07:52
  he can think about is Victor, whereas he's being told, you
• 1:07:54
  know, you know, there's this whole plot to blow up
• 1:07:56
  Parliament. It's like, oh, fireworks,
• 1:07:58
  whatever. Where's Victor?
• 1:07:59
  You know, where's that young cherubic?
• 1:08:02
  Yes, exactly. Like there's there's a there's a
• 1:08:04
  there's a good way for him to to start kind of gloss over some of
• 1:08:11
  the other facts such as that don't make sense for him about
• 1:08:13
  the doctor and why he's exactly there, things like that.
• 1:08:20
  And I guess I make it kind of one of the issues is that I
• 1:08:24
  would quite like it to have been probably Ian in some way rather
• 1:08:29
  than, OK, that would be hilarious because he would be
• 1:08:34
  able to be more wily about the situation, be more kind of, you
• 1:08:39
  know, aware of in what Vicky kind of, again, kind of plays
• 1:08:43
  into some of the tropes. And I was kind of jokingly
• 1:08:45
  referring to he as a sort of demon twinkle and such.
• 1:08:48
  But King James wrote it just has this thing about how essentially
• 1:08:52
  he's aged, you know, of being his twink, the court's twink.
• 1:08:56
  And Victor's meant to be the new one on the scene, but he keeps
• 1:09:02
  calling him the boy. And it's all about younger men
• 1:09:05
  that way. And it's a predatory angle in a
• 1:09:07
  lot of ways that isn't. Me, absolutely.
• 1:09:10
  The Romans as well, wasn't it? I know she wasn't underage, but
• 1:09:13
  it's predatory all the same. Yeah, but.
• 1:09:15
  It's yeah, it's still predatory in that way, but it's it's it
• 1:09:19
  has that particular language as well, especially when it is in a
• 1:09:22
  homosexual situation is like this as well.
• 1:09:25
  That if it was someone like Ian and this dealing with it in the
• 1:09:29
  same way that, say, Barbara did, where she she ingrained herself
• 1:09:35
  in that court from being a servant, slave servant, Ian
• 1:09:38
  could have been a similar sort of role in some way that could
• 1:09:43
  have also been useful to the plot.
• 1:09:46
  Unless icky, less icky in a lot of ways because, yeah, just be
• 1:09:51
  less icky with Vicky, please, when using.
• 1:09:55
  Well done. Well summarized.
• 1:09:56
  I mean, one of the things I loved, many things I love about
• 1:10:00
  the witch finders, one of the things I love was that Ryan had
• 1:10:03
  no gay panic whatsoever when he realised the King was interested
• 1:10:07
  in him. He's right.
• 1:10:07
  Right now I can delay him from going to murdering a load of
• 1:10:10
  people by flirting out. Rate was he say please show me
• 1:10:14
  your pricker or whatever he was like.
• 1:10:15
  Yeah. Oh, really?
• 1:10:18
  Tell me about your history. So interesting, you know.
• 1:10:21
  Yeah, there's there's, there's you know, and that's like like
• 1:10:25
  that's something I probably Ian maybe at first a bit flustered,
• 1:10:30
  but then would have got into the role quite well to be able to
• 1:10:33
  kind of use to the advantage in a way that they they keep not
• 1:10:38
  doing in this because as Becky, she is meant to be this young
• 1:10:42
  teenager. So it would not be suitable for
• 1:10:44
  her to actually, they would never.
• 1:10:46
  Write so far. I think.
• 1:10:48
  We could say that comfortably this wouldn't, this would never
• 1:10:51
  get up. You would never have keep going
• 1:10:53
  after an underage companion like no.
• 1:10:56
  No, you wouldn't be having that and a big finish anytime soon,
• 1:11:00
  although we're not. Suggesting as well that Ian, our
• 1:11:04
  Ian, you know, who's devoted to Barbara, starts doing things
• 1:11:07
  like Chris Quedge in the New Adventures, going down back
• 1:11:09
  alleys and giving people such jobs.
• 1:11:11
  We don't want that, but we want him to start.
• 1:11:13
  You know, there's a lot of back. Alleys in there.
• 1:11:16
  So there's plenty of opportunities the night off
• 1:11:19
  because it's pre 1666 and so there's lots of smaller holes
• 1:11:24
  that people can, if you can get can get through to expedite
• 1:11:32
  their journeys. And it's it's a nice part of of
• 1:11:36
  world building that they do with that.
• 1:11:39
  So he would have had ample opportunities.
• 1:11:42
  What did you think of that particular all?
• 1:11:44
  Right. Don't you tell me you ain't good
• 1:11:45
  at this all right, because. There was another small hole in
• 1:11:48
  this as well with the. I'm intrigued with with the
• 1:11:53
  underground network within the tree.
• 1:11:55
  So they would go into the the small caves of of labyrinths
• 1:12:00
  like underground. That bit was a bit hard to
• 1:12:05
  believe in terms of the plot because how how small were these
• 1:12:11
  holes to fit people through? How big were the sun?
• 1:12:16
  There was this underground network.
• 1:12:17
  It's it was a bit odd in comparison to the regular sort
• 1:12:23
  of historical stuff, but were you talking about?
• 1:12:25
  What? What the passages in order to
• 1:12:26
  get underneath Westminster? Yeah, no.
• 1:12:29
  It wasn't the ones that they had with that there was the tree
• 1:12:31
  which kept the under secret underground network that he was
• 1:12:34
  using. Oh.
• 1:12:36
  Yes. So he was just way in and out of
• 1:12:38
  everywhere, wasn't it? Of like, you know, so we could
• 1:12:40
  be in about 5 place, 5 plots at once.
• 1:12:43
  Yeah, because. It seems like at one point I
• 1:12:45
  think they said it was maybe hundreds of years old.
• 1:12:49
  And the thing was, was like the dog that can have pains.
• 1:12:50
  This is the sort of secret society that doesn't really
• 1:12:53
  exist and there's not many of them around, but they seem to
• 1:12:56
  have built like a very elaborate thing.
• 1:12:59
  And I'm going to. Suggest you consider them
• 1:13:02
  narrative passages to squeeze down rather than literal ones.
• 1:13:06
  OK. Yeah, I'll take it as I'll take
• 1:13:10
  it as a narrative type passage instead of sort of 1.
• 1:13:16
  What do you do you have anything else in your notes?
• 1:13:20
  Any lines you wish to spot, you know to to rejoice about?
• 1:13:24
  I mean, I've got quite a few, so if you want to bat back and
• 1:13:28
  forth for a second. Well I'll, I'll let.
• 1:13:32
  Well, I've got one. I'll kick off with another King
• 1:13:36
  James one near the beginning. I'll try and get my King James
• 1:13:39
  one. What is this?
• 1:13:41
  What's his accent like again? Oh, oh, Matron Prince, I knew.
• 1:13:48
  I knew it would be a Prince witchcraft.
• 1:13:51
  The weed, lassie. Yes, more wine.
• 1:13:55
  We shall return to the well. Oh, to have long noticed this.
• 1:14:05
  I'm going to quickly look in my book instead, because I just I
• 1:14:07
  wrote the quite a bit of a frozen slip of a Coke.
• 1:14:11
  Oh, please, can you read that out now though, please?
• 1:14:13
  I'll read that. After I read the actual one,
• 1:14:15
  because it's when King James says more wine, we shall return
• 1:14:22
  to the Barbary ape and I wrote the Salisbury ape, which as his
• 1:14:27
  political advisor, hopefully he's not returning to him
• 1:14:32
  anytime Simon in any apish fashion, but oh what?
• 1:14:34
  Was the line about Salisbury where we went?
• 1:14:37
  Thank God he wasn't called Reading or.
• 1:14:41
  Something Oh yeah, to name a cathedral yeah a fuck Cathedral
• 1:14:44
  City yeah, I. Did like this the Chamberlain?
• 1:14:46
  His interest in divinity and theology are much greater than
• 1:14:51
  his interest in female company. There's there's so many
• 1:14:56
  references that he makes about how happy he's not to be in his
• 1:15:00
  his wife's company as as the queen, like throughout is.
• 1:15:04
  Yeah, it's not very subtle. Oh.
• 1:15:07
  God, what was the what was the line about the pie?
• 1:15:13
  Hang on, I've got it here somewhere.
• 1:15:18
  On a rising scale, if one is a stolen pie from the kitchen and
• 1:15:22
  10 is revolution in the streets, how awful is it?
• 1:15:26
  I like that 1/8. I love how he's he's because the
• 1:15:32
  Chamberlain's trying to be so dramatic about it, but even in
• 1:15:36
  that scale, he just thinks it's an 8 out of 10 of of how
• 1:15:39
  dramatic it is, which my. Life rarely goes below 8.
• 1:15:44
  Absolutely. If I'm honest, you know, if I'm
• 1:15:47
  at 5, then I'm doing something very wrong.
• 1:15:49
  Oh, listen to this. This was, this was the ultimate
• 1:15:51
  plot. You ready?
• 1:15:52
  When Parliament is a smoking wreck, the war would begin.
• 1:15:55
  This country will be torn apart with hidden tensions.
• 1:15:58
  And then begins the reign of darkness for which we have longs
• 1:16:02
  prepared. The fall of England will crush
• 1:16:04
  the spirits of Europe. France will fall, then Spain,
• 1:16:07
  then Germany. Everlasting darkness.
• 1:16:10
  I mean, I thought that summed it up quite well.
• 1:16:13
  Exactly. There's, there's been a lot of
• 1:16:19
  like, yeah, nice, lovely dialogue from, from King James
• 1:16:23
  and such. But there was there was a lovely
• 1:16:25
  part of of word play as as well from the first Doctor where
• 1:16:32
  they're talking about this idea of an exorcism in the first
• 1:16:36
  instance and the the the Doctor just.
• 1:16:41
  So I'm just trying to find it there.
• 1:16:45
  I've had I know it's over the place right now but yes King
• 1:16:51
  James is just going on about saying oh we need to wipe out
• 1:16:55
  this devilry within this wooden box and doctors like well I
• 1:16:58
  could do if the exorcise It's just nice little word plays like
• 1:17:04
  that. You can imagine this script like
• 1:17:06
  just ice that line exercise. Yes yeah, he was he would
• 1:17:12
  positively glow say in that line.
• 1:17:15
  I did like the. Chamberlain.
• 1:17:16
  I really like the Chamberlain's line.
• 1:17:17
  At one point he's so I was like, oh, who is to know truth from
• 1:17:21
  fiction these days? I thought, yes, very droll, Mr.
• 1:17:24
  Agnew. Yes, no, yeah.
• 1:17:27
  I mean, throughout, throughout the book, there's the, yeah,
• 1:17:32
  there's so much wonderful control lines the Doctor had.
• 1:17:36
  The nerve to say this. For one moment there, I thought
• 1:17:39
  this episode, I mean to say this episode of my life was going in
• 1:17:44
  a different direction. Was that the sort of knowing
• 1:17:46
  comment that you were talking about?
• 1:17:47
  Yeah, there was some sort of like 4th wall stuff sometimes
• 1:17:50
  that went a bit too bit too far. Can I ask you?
• 1:17:56
  This, though, would you if I sort of, you know, got you
• 1:17:59
  involved in some devilish plot, Anthony?
• 1:18:02
  Yeah. And like the Cobblers, if I gave
• 1:18:04
  you enough money to be able to afford a pie a day, would that
• 1:18:08
  be enough to get you on board? It'd.
• 1:18:10
  Be very tempting. That would stay.
• 1:18:13
  High at that, you know, with loads it's a.
• 1:18:15
  It's a universal price. I think everyone would sign up
• 1:18:18
  if you offered anyone at any time period a pie a day.
• 1:18:21
  I'll take a. Slice, you know, Oh, I've.
• 1:18:26
  Just seen this item in Page 249 which they're about to go out to
• 1:18:31
  go to the exercising. However, the only way to kind of
• 1:18:36
  agree for for them to go off right now is that Vicky has to
• 1:18:42
  return to be on King James's knee and sit on his knee.
• 1:18:47
  When they return to court and and James stands up, he says
• 1:18:55
  steady on. Does a victor have to stamp on
• 1:18:58
  it too? He looked down sadly at his
• 1:19:01
  vacant knee. I'm afraid he does, says the
• 1:19:04
  doctor. I'll need someone to hold my
• 1:19:06
  prayer book, I suppose. James blew a kiss to the lad.
• 1:19:11
  Watch yourself and beware of spirits.
• 1:19:15
  And I won't forget that promise you made.
• 1:19:19
  Coming fuck off but I'm getting you in the Rollers King times.
• 1:19:23
  I just, you know, it's, it's, it's genuinely, it never ends.
• 1:19:28
  It never ceases throughout the book, like this level of of
• 1:19:34
  horniness that he has for it. I can't.
• 1:19:37
  Imagine why I enjoyed it this much.
• 1:19:40
  But but it does help to, like I say, undercut the sort of thing
• 1:19:43
  of, you know, if you were having this as a serious drama like you
• 1:19:46
  might have had in some of like say by Marco Polo, you would
• 1:19:50
  would have had people treating it as a more serious drama and
• 1:19:53
  taking a lot to serious elements.
• 1:19:54
  And you still can. You could still take the broad
• 1:19:57
  history of it but enjoy it as an entertainment piece as well from
• 1:20:00
  this high camp performance. I do I.
• 1:20:02
  Mean, I will say again that I do think there are moments where
• 1:20:05
  it's thoughtful. There are moments where it's
• 1:20:07
  educational and there's lines like this which are funny lines,
• 1:20:10
  but it, it says something. All it takes is to be utterly
• 1:20:14
  unscrupulous to exploit the worst aspects of human nature.
• 1:20:17
  And I was like, yeah, that's kind of true.
• 1:20:19
  Just leave your morals at the door and you can exploit
• 1:20:22
  anybody, you know. So I was like, yeah, there was,
• 1:20:25
  there was moments where I was thinking, but there was far more
• 1:20:28
  moments where I was laughing. Yeah, because in amongst that
• 1:20:33
  you do have. Actually.
• 1:20:34
  Good characterization and about some of the themes that you see
• 1:20:38
  because he is the kind of master manipulator and boiling
• 1:20:43
  sociopathic in terms of his ideas.
• 1:20:46
  He just wants sort of chaos to reign as his main sort of thing
• 1:20:50
  and he knows how to manipulate people to be able to.
• 1:20:54
  He knows what the weaknesses are, especially in this time
• 1:20:56
  period and the ideas we're talking about on the sort of
• 1:21:00
  Catholic and Protestant kind of religious arguments that take
• 1:21:07
  place for this book. Cecil, who is is meant to be the
• 1:21:11
  main political master manipulator in Westminster in
• 1:21:14
  this book is outplayed because of his bigotry towards
• 1:21:19
  Catholics. He just he thinks he can get a
• 1:21:21
  one off up off them in this plot with the gunpowder he sets the
• 1:21:26
  fucking. Thing up, didn't he?
• 1:21:27
  Like, yeah. Well, yeah, it's at the same
• 1:21:30
  time that he is played against with Hay because he he gets so
• 1:21:35
  involved within that that he in turn can be be exposed to it.
• 1:21:42
  And his own bigotry towards their downfall ultimately could
• 1:21:46
  have brought down him at the same time.
• 1:21:49
  So it it, it does have that theme of like, as much as he is
• 1:21:53
  just a mad sort of cultist, like it exposes some of the people
• 1:21:59
  for their bigotry at the same time.
• 1:22:01
  And I hate to kind of not fall into into that sort of deep pit.
• 1:22:08
  What does he know about the doctor to call him the Grand
• 1:22:12
  Behemoth? Yeah.
• 1:22:14
  Is this another sort of melon? The other sort, I can only
• 1:22:21
  guess. Yeah, I don't know, man.
• 1:22:23
  Who knew you squid during that sort of scene?
• 1:22:26
  No, don't. Don't do it.
• 1:22:27
  Don't. Yeah, Well, summarise your
• 1:22:31
  thought. I mean, we've sort of done that,
• 1:22:33
  but we've we've quoted a load of witty lines.
• 1:22:37
  One last thing I want to say before we summarise is I can
• 1:22:39
  absolutely understand why somebody else who is not me
• 1:22:43
  would be able to read this and find it highly awkward and
• 1:22:47
  problematic at times. Certainly the King James and
• 1:22:50
  Vicky staff and I absolutely respect that.
• 1:22:53
  But that reading is there because I know people that watch
• 1:22:56
  the Barbara stuff in the Romans and say, I don't really want to
• 1:22:59
  watch that. That's like that's that's kind
• 1:23:02
  of the worst of humanity there. He's basically trying to rape
• 1:23:04
  that, you know, So I get I get that people might not.
• 1:23:07
  I think he teeters on the right line of it being fast instead of
• 1:23:12
  problematic, but it is possible to to to take that line with
• 1:23:17
  this book and his books in general.
• 1:23:20
  Anyway, I just wanted to say that, but so the plotters please
• 1:23:25
  in your best double entendres summarise this book.
• 1:23:29
  Well, it's, it's, it won't, it won't bet through everyone's
• 1:23:32
  passage. I would say it's not something I
• 1:23:36
  think, like you say, everyone would enjoy because it's a nice
• 1:23:41
  perfect slice of Season 2. And to an extent, some of the
• 1:23:46
  latter. I saw the quotas, well, kind of
• 1:23:48
  cobbled in with that. The one thing is that is that
• 1:23:53
  you can't have this all the time.
• 1:23:56
  It's why it's nice having this as a very limited thing.
• 1:23:59
  It's just a little window into an additional story here.
• 1:24:02
  But if you're doing scores and scores of this all the time, you
• 1:24:08
  wouldn't have an audience for this.
• 1:24:09
  No one would find it original. They would be kind of, you know,
• 1:24:14
  out of steam to have something like this week in, week out when
• 1:24:19
  it comes to any of the sort of past ranges for anything be a
• 1:24:23
  book, audio, whatever. But if you want a just pure
• 1:24:28
  distilled slice of 1965, this really covers a lot of the
• 1:24:33
  bases. It also covers the historic
• 1:24:37
  aspects really well. I would say as well.
• 1:24:40
  There's characters that are well respected in terms of how
• 1:24:46
  they're portrayed in the same way in the Crusade where Saladin
• 1:24:50
  is more even handed than you'd expect in a 1960s production.
• 1:24:54
  So there's there's aspects of understanding more people in
• 1:24:59
  this historic context quite well.
• 1:25:01
  And for the most part, in particular, Ian and Barbara and
• 1:25:03
  the Doctor, the characterization is really strong and to the
• 1:25:08
  point that you genuinely especially feel that emotion
• 1:25:11
  with Barbara and Ian near the end of the book.
• 1:25:14
  And yeah, it's just full of absolute smut.
• 1:25:19
  It is completely, it is completely an absolute dirty
• 1:25:25
  fest. Where do you want?
• 1:25:27
  I was actually, I wonder if you could cast the people because we
• 1:25:32
  were casting people in this book from people from Doctor Who, but
• 1:25:38
  you could cast folk from the Carry On films within this as
• 1:25:41
  well. Like really easily sort of cast
• 1:25:44
  and wait. Who's the fellow with the
• 1:25:45
  glasses? Charles Holtry.
• 1:25:46
  Can he be the Charles Holtry? Can he be the Charles Holtry?
• 1:25:48
  Can be the Chamberlain Who would?
• 1:25:51
  Kenneth Williams be. Oh, Kenneth.
• 1:25:55
  Well, would you want Kenneth Williams to be King James?
• 1:26:01
  Yes. Hey, come on, sit on my knee.
• 1:26:07
  In fact, no, maybe I would have. I would have Charles Hotchley.
• 1:26:11
  No. Yeah, I would have Charles
• 1:26:12
  Hotchley as the Chamberlain. I was between him and Peter.
• 1:26:15
  But if he's already the medal in monk in the show, we maybe
• 1:26:20
  couldn't quite do that. I would have Barbara.
• 1:26:23
  Windsor play all versions of Hey, All right, the buxom wedge,
• 1:26:28
  the The young boy and the Spaniards you.
• 1:26:32
  See the you see the the the bomb.
• 1:26:34
  The one who? The landlady who runs the bar.
• 1:26:37
  Hatty, Hatty Jay. Oh no.
• 1:26:41
  How would we get? What's the name in there?
• 1:26:43
  Joan Sims. Oh, and what is the thing?
• 1:26:47
  Actually, there's not a lot of women in this book, no.
• 1:26:49
  There's well, no. He turns all the women into men.
• 1:26:53
  He does indeed, actually, apart from the landlady and genuinely
• 1:26:59
  that I think that's the only woman which is very unbraided
• 1:27:02
  for some, fortunately. We've already got William
• 1:27:04
  Hartnell in this. He's from a Carry On movie, so
• 1:27:06
  that's all right. Yeah, Sid James.
• 1:27:10
  Who would you put Sid James to be?
• 1:27:15
  Maybe one of the Cobblers with a really dirty laugh.
• 1:27:19
  Well. True, well maybe if you add some
• 1:27:21
  smutty lines to him, maybe sestool because he's got quite a
• 1:27:24
  meaty role and you can smut him up.
• 1:27:27
  Who's sort? Of the most heroic of the Carry
• 1:27:29
  On actors to play Guy Fawkes. Oh, what's that young guy who?
• 1:27:35
  Oh, with a sort of Beatles cart? I can't.
• 1:27:37
  Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
• 1:27:39
  Not Kenneth. Connor, Jim.
• 1:27:41
  Dale, Jim. Dale.
• 1:27:42
  Jim Dale as Guy Fawkes. OK, Have we done?
• 1:27:45
  Everybody hang on. I'm trying to figure who else
• 1:27:48
  even, because it's not many character wise.
• 1:27:52
  I mean, you could well just let you say with the sort of comedy
• 1:27:55
  duel of the two cockneys in the bar you could throw in.
• 1:28:02
  Maybe Bernard Breslaw is one of them.
• 1:28:04
  I just want to read this again now with all those castings in.
• 1:28:07
  Mind especially. Barbara Windsor's hi.
• 1:28:12
  You never thought? Through my plan did you you.
• 1:28:18
  Should be great. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe.
• 1:28:21
  Like maybe Teddy Scott is one of the the librarians, Frankie
• 1:28:28
  Howard perhaps, or Leslie Phillips, someone like that kind
• 1:28:31
  of camping that up. I'm going.
• 1:28:34
  To mock up, I'm going to mock up a movie poster for the plotters
• 1:28:37
  to come out with this all right. With all the plotting I've just
• 1:28:42
  put terrible Photoshop costumes on.
• 1:28:45
  Them, yes, I think I think that's the the main legacy we
• 1:28:49
  can do from this is to have a whole cast of carry on plotting.
• 1:28:54
  I would say because they did create audios of the Tom Baker,
• 1:28:59
  David Agnew books, they could easily have done this.
• 1:29:03
  They could easily have turned this into a great audio, I think
• 1:29:06
  because the lines are just there, you know, just take them
• 1:29:09
  from the book. Did he still do some of the
• 1:29:12
  missing adventure adaptations? The.
• 1:29:14
  The the novel adaptations they did the one didn't they recently
• 1:29:17
  golf opera because that was already recorded.
• 1:29:20
  They just weren't. Selling so they they stopped
• 1:29:22
  bothering, you know, and they were quite expensive to do.
• 1:29:25
  I think you've taught me in this conversation.
• 1:29:27
  I came into this conversation thinking, my God, the regulars
• 1:29:30
  are great. I've actually come out of this
• 1:29:32
  conversation thinking the most impressive thing about this is
• 1:29:35
  the guest characters and what they bring out of the regulars.
• 1:29:39
  If you're pardon the pub. Yeah, I know what Guy Fawkes are
• 1:29:42
  trying to bring out a Barbara, but bring out.
• 1:29:46
  Put in what he's talking about. Yeah, but no, yet.
• 1:29:50
  Like it's, it's, it's almost not even sometimes the characters.
• 1:29:55
  It's the idea of what the actor would get out of performing in
• 1:29:59
  this situation with the characters, especially like
• 1:30:01
  William Hartnell, like he would have thrived dealing with this
• 1:30:04
  sort of court intrigue and sort of like melodrama with King
• 1:30:11
  James, Like he would have thrived with that.
• 1:30:14
  And the same with the tender scenes that Barbara has with Guy
• 1:30:18
  Fawkes. You can really see Jacqueline
• 1:30:21
  Hill could do really well in those parts.
• 1:30:24
  And Ian being that sort of honest knight on his way to save
• 1:30:28
  his his his wife. Yeah, unfortunately.
• 1:30:32
  Sort of halfway through the story, his shirt got torn open
• 1:30:35
  and we had to look at his chest for the rest of the story.
• 1:30:37
  It's a shame, but there it is a shame.
• 1:30:40
  I mean, I'll say any complaints I've got are minimal.
• 1:30:44
  And because I just, the entertainment value was so high.
• 1:30:47
  And you know, I've, I've waved through some dirges of Doctor
• 1:30:51
  Who books doing this book club, and I know you have as well.
• 1:30:55
  Doing yours? Absolutely.
• 1:30:57
  And this was a. Breeze, yes.
• 1:31:00
  It was such a easy read. And that is the thing as well as
• 1:31:03
  in terms of if you struggle with the styles of some of these
• 1:31:08
  books, this one really is quite it gets along at a very fair
• 1:31:13
  pace. There's a lot of dialogue, so
• 1:31:15
  it's a very easy jumping into scene and picturing these scenes
• 1:31:20
  without too much of the of the kind of sentences around it to
• 1:31:24
  help you paint that picture. Because you can paint it through
• 1:31:27
  how they're talking, how people are interacting quite well,
• 1:31:30
  especially given the 67. So yeah, it's definitely would
• 1:31:34
  be something I'd be recommending to any who wants a slice of 60s
• 1:31:38
  who because we don't get much of them.
• 1:31:42
  And that's probably the best way to do it because we don't want
• 1:31:44
  to overmine every. Nostalgia.
• 1:31:47
  Yeah. Well, if you would care to
• 1:31:51
  explore Dark and Frightening House with me, with possible
• 1:31:57
  incestuous overtones. Or at least according to Paul
• 1:31:59
  Quinn on Target Book Day. Where are we heading next?
• 1:32:04
  Somewhere quite different from the plotters are here.
• 1:32:07
  When we're going through the dark colors of passages within
• 1:32:10
  the house and ghost light, Gabriel Chase ghost light as as
• 1:32:16
  to give a little tease is maybe one of my favourite stories.
• 1:32:20
  It's it's my favorite McCoy by a mile.
• 1:32:22
  Oh. Interesting.
• 1:32:25
  Have you read the book? No.
• 1:32:27
  Never read like I say, I think on the Dalek novelization that
• 1:32:31
  was my first target. I read through fill through so
• 1:32:34
  I've barely touched the targets I so I am intrigued the
• 1:32:38
  reputation. Of these, these late Mccoys are
• 1:32:40
  really high and there's a great Ian Hogg reading.
• 1:32:43
  If you don't even want to do the work of reading it, you could
• 1:32:45
  listen to it, right? OK.
• 1:32:47
  And the last hospital though? My my last question to you then,
• 1:32:51
  before we go is, you know, should people wish to, you know,
• 1:32:56
  squeeze down your passage of podcast them, then what narrows
• 1:33:02
  would they have to manoeuvre? Well, if you want to come to the
• 1:33:06
  the sorry, I'm so wrong. If you wish to come to the court
• 1:33:12
  of depravity that is the New Adventures, then you.
• 1:33:18
  Might see nothing left, you might say nothing yet.
• 1:33:20
  All right if you think this is as bad as it gets.
• 1:33:23
  Exactly. Can Caro and Shaw real supreme
• 1:33:25
  over on the Too Broad and Too Deep podcast, where we have
• 1:33:30
  thankfully just done the pits. You can join our pain listening
• 1:33:35
  to that episode or listening to our future episodes, which we
• 1:33:40
  are going to be doing the seat, which is coming next and
• 1:33:45
  features Joe. Yeah.
• 1:33:49
  So yeah, I'm going. To press up a space bitch ace
• 1:33:52
  just for the episode, just for the return.
• 1:33:54
  All right, I'll be proud of you. Only episodes.
• 1:33:57
  Both. My gums.
• 1:34:01
  You bet. Award.
• 1:34:01
  Alistair All right. So yes, hopefully that will be a
• 1:34:06
  tantalizing image for you all listening to, to imagine that as
• 1:34:09
  you hear Joe and your eardrums talk about deceit with us next
• 1:34:14
  time, I mean. I can promise you all that
• 1:34:17
  potentially things will be a little less smutty next time.
• 1:34:21
  This absolutely. We're on brand for this episode.
• 1:34:25
  Well, we are heading, you know, into a ghost light, which is
• 1:34:27
  literate and very smart text. But for now, this has been one
• 1:34:33
  of the most enjoyable hour and a half broadcast that I've ever
• 1:34:36
  done. Anthony, thank you very much for
• 1:34:39
  your time tonight. It's.
• 1:34:41
  Been a pleasure as it has been for King James and certain
• 1:34:45
  certain servants. Stuff has been this book as
• 1:34:47
  well. How do we out this in a
• 1:34:49
  particularly like, terrifyingly rude way?
• 1:34:54
  Your place or mine? Neva will go to King James's
• 1:34:59
  room, that'll be easier. OK, I'll race you to his knee.