Latest / Future Christian / Transforming Church Fundraising: Jason Hanselman on Moving from Guilt to Generosity

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Transforming Church Fundraising: Jason Hanselman on Moving from Guilt to Generosity · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Jason
0:50
Hanselman. Jason currently serves as a Donor
0:54
Relations Director with Mission Aviation
0:56
Fellowship. His ministry experience spans more
1:00
than 25 years. He has led in a variety of
1:03
capacities in kingdom building roles as a pastor,
1:06
missionary, church planter and fundraiser. Jason
1:10
was born and raised in Denver, Colorado, where he
1:13
met his wife Mary. They've been married for 32
1:16
years. He holds a Bachelor's degree in ministry
1:20
and a Master of Arts degree in education. Jason's
1:24
goal is to partner with other kingdom minded
1:26
individuals and churches to raise enough resources
1:30
to make it possible for deaf people all over the
1:33
world to see Jesus in their heart. Language. Jason
1:37
enjoys spending time with his family on hikes and
1:40
in art museums. Jason and Mary raised their three
1:44
children in Idaho, Naomi, Grace, and Solomon. When
1:48
he has extra time, Jason is a portrait artist and
1:51
an avid sports fan. A reminder, before we start
1:55
today's conversation, please take a moment to
1:58
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share
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Shoot us an email at, uh, laurenresonatemediapro
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uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for
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future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
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we faithfully discern the future of the church.
2:31
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
2:33
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased
2:36
to be welcoming Jason Hanselman to the show. Hello
2:39
and welcome.
2:40
>> Speaker D: Good morning, Loren. Thanks for having me on.
2:42
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for making some time for this
2:44
conversation. Anything else you want to say about
2:46
yourself for our listeners?
2:48
>> Speaker D: Uh, I'm a motorcycle enthusiast and so, uh, I
2:52
enjoy doing that, but actually, uh, one of the
2:54
things I really love to do is paint portraits.
2:57
>> Loren: Hmm.
2:57
>> Speaker D: So I'm just, you know, when the pandemic hit, I
2:59
had nothing to do, so I started to paint pictures
3:02
on my garage wall and my wife said, why don't we
3:06
just get you some canvases? I. We don't need to
3:08
take up all of the space in the garage, so that's
3:10
been, um, a great release.
3:12
>> Loren: That's a really cool thing. And you've kept it up
3:14
since COVID I have.
3:17
>> Speaker D: You know, actually when I, when I left high
3:19
school, I thought I would be a world famous
3:21
artist. Mhm. Obviously that did not pan out, but.
3:25
>> Loren: Oh yeah, right.
3:26
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, you have to die, I think, first to be
3:29
famous in the art world. Um, but yeah, so I've had
3:33
that latent passion there for a long time. And um,
3:37
when things got tough, I needed to get creative.
3:40
And so that was one of my outlets to be creative.
3:42
So really enjoy it.
3:44
>> Loren: That's great. Yeah, I guess like in a hundred
3:47
years, right. Archaeologists. Is that the right
3:50
word? Are going to come back and be like, oh, this
3:53
is the famed garage of, you know.
3:56
>> Speaker D: Right. Look at this. Look at these cavemen. How
3:59
did they get so advanced in their artwork?
4:03
>> Loren: Well, thanks for sharing that.
4:04
Uh, share if you would, kind of about your faith
4:06
background, what that's looked like in the past
4:08
and what that looks like today.
4:10
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So when I went to Bible college in my early
4:15
20s and uh, headed into ministry, but it was a non
4:19
denominational Christian church and um, I did not
4:24
ever think I would be in ministry either. But I
4:27
met some people in my life who really lived their
4:30
faith out and I thought, man, I really want to do
4:32
that. I really want to be that. And I followed
4:35
them off to Bible college and then got into
4:37
ministry and just served churches and nonprofits.
4:40
Um, ever since then. So that's kind of been my
4:43
faith journey. You know, my folks raised me in the
4:46
church, so I don't have any crazy. I jumped off
4:49
the, the rails too far in my life story. But I
4:54
wandered a little bit in high school and came back
4:57
and then really just found that ministry was a
4:59
good fit for me for a while.
5:00
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome.
5:02
And um, what are some spiritual practices? I mean,
5:05
it sounds like. I don't know if this is too much
5:06
of a stretch. Say, is painting a spiritual
5:09
practice for you or anything else you want to
5:11
share?
5:11
>> Speaker D: Um, painting can be. It is not for me. This is
5:16
going to sound weird, but asking people for money
5:18
is a very spiritual endeavor for me. And here's
5:22
why. You know, when, at least when I read the
5:24
Bible, I see that Jesus says there's competition
5:27
for two things for his love and then our love for
5:30
money. M Right. So when I sit in front of somebody
5:33
and ask them for money, you can see the wheels
5:36
turn like, ah, uh, what am I going to give up in
5:39
order to give to help those people? And so it's
5:44
just a good time for people to wrestle with that
5:46
and be reminded that, um, time is limited,
5:49
resources are limited, but this is your
5:51
opportunity to make a big difference.
5:54
>> Loren: Well, that leads well into our conversation that
5:57
we're going to have here on stewardship and
5:59
fundraising. And I suppose that's a good way to
6:03
approach the conversation and maybe let me, let me
6:08
address it personally here. Like, I was just
6:10
looking at like my giving. From my church. Like
6:14
they sent out, I think the third quarter
6:16
statements and I was like, boy, I'm not giving
6:19
enough. And like I wrestle. I think this gets into
6:25
a broader conversation that I'm sure you have to
6:27
wrestle with, with organizations and churches and
6:30
donors around their own M Money scripts.
6:33
>> Speaker D: Right.
6:34
>> Loren: So maybe let's start with that because I think we
6:36
all have our own sort of money scripts that
6:39
influences how we think about money. What comes to
6:44
mind for you there?
6:46
>> Speaker D: Uh, I think most of us wrestle with money on some
6:50
level because we all have sort of a childhood
6:52
connection to it somewhere. We were raised, like,
6:56
this is how we deal with money. And you look at
6:58
your mom and dad and how they dealt with it. Were
7:01
they, were they really generous people or were
7:04
they not so generous? And I think, um, we just
7:07
developed these habits or fears around money. You
7:11
know, if you grow up without money, you're always
7:13
wondering, am I ever going to have enough? And
7:16
sometimes when you grow up with a lot of money, it
7:18
doesn't mean much to you and so you kind of get a
7:21
little frivolous with it. But you know, in the
7:24
donor space, um, people who have wealth don't
7:29
think about money the same way that you and I do.
7:31
And we approach them to ask them for money, um,
7:34
they understand that their wealth is, uh, I want
7:39
to say required. I don't know how to say that.
7:41
Well, but they know that their money is going to
7:43
help people and they want to get a return on that
7:46
investment. And so they're sort of waiting and
7:49
eager for you to talk about it. But a lot of times
7:52
we shy away from that because of our own hang ups
7:55
with money.
7:56
>> Loren: Mm, mhm. Yeah, that's helpful.
8:01
Now as we think about, like thinking about COVID
8:06
and the years since COVID I mean, I think it's
8:09
kind of funny to think about, like we've already
8:11
talked about COVID but it almost seems like it's
8:13
been a distant memory. Like, have you noticed any
8:18
shifts, whether it be in fundraising, specifically
8:21
in nonprofit space and church space? I mean,
8:24
certainly in church space. Right. There was this
8:25
huge bump where so many churches felt like, they
8:28
were going to be in dire straits, and then giving
8:32
went up drastically. Have you noticed giving
8:36
trends changing in these last, what, five years or
8:39
so?
8:41
>> Speaker D: Um, here's what I would say about that. I think
8:45
there used to be a time when you could just show
8:47
up to somebody and say, hey, give me some money.
8:49
And they're like. And they felt guilty or
8:52
whatever. Um, and so they would hand it over. But
8:56
I think more and more givers, donors, partners,
9:00
whatever you want to call it, want a return on
9:02
their investment. Now they want to say, hey, I'm
9:06
happy to give you this, but please show me where
9:09
it's going, what it's doing. How am I making a
9:12
difference in the world? How is this funding going
9:14
to make a difference in the world? Um, so I guess
9:17
they're expecting a higher level of accountability
9:19
in that respect. So the organizations that can
9:23
show, here's how we're making a difference often
9:25
will win, um, more money that way. And the ones
9:29
that kind of are lax on demonstrating that they
9:34
are really doing something with the money invested
9:36
in them are going to struggle.
9:39
>> Loren: So let's bring this real practical for thinking of
9:42
churches. And I think this also applies for
9:44
nonprofits, but for a church who, you know, their
9:49
primary method of engagement. Right. Is often the
9:51
Sunday morning service. And that's kind of a, uh,
9:54
not meant to be. I don't know. I wouldn't think.
9:57
I'm a pastor. I know you've worked in pastoral
9:59
ministry, too. Like, I wouldn't think of that as,
10:01
like, a fundraising experience.
10:04
>> Speaker D: Well, I'm glad I'm here to talk to you then.
10:06
>> Loren: But, yeah, tell me, like, how do we. How do
10:09
pastors. How to. How do church leaders navigate
10:12
that space? A, to stay true to their values? And
10:16
then I think also B, thinking about, like, the
10:20
disconnect of, like, they're so used to just,
10:22
like, expecting people to put money in the plates.
10:25
>> Speaker D: Right, right. Well, uh, you know, I was. Here's a
10:28
practical example. I was at a church, I won't say
10:30
which one the other day, but they, they did their
10:34
air quote money talk that day, which I always hate
10:37
when they set it up that way because it makes,
10:39
again, it makes giving an enemy, which, um, we
10:43
have the most giving God in the world.
10:45
>> Loren: Real quick, define what you talk about when you
10:47
say that. Money talk.
10:50
>> Speaker D: Um, so the budget is down, the numbers are
10:54
crunching. Uh, people aren't going to get paid.
10:57
Oh, my goodness. We need to have the money talk
11:00
with people. Or this is the annual time of year
11:03
where we talk about money. Well, what's funny is
11:07
the guy said, uh, we don't really want to talk
11:10
about money around here. And here's one of the
11:12
reasons why. About 4% of you will leave when we
11:16
talk about money. M and I leaned over to my wife
11:20
and I whispered, yeah, but the 96% are the ones
11:23
who really are engaged with this. So we always
11:27
frame it in the negative. It's like the 4% who
11:30
don't want to talk about money really maybe not be
11:32
invested. And so this may not be the thing for
11:34
them. Mhm. But the 96% of us who will stick
11:38
around, let's make it a better discussion around
11:40
what giving is about and what it will do and how
11:44
we can be involved in that. And I think if you
11:48
paint a clear vision and you say, here will be the
11:50
outcomes to that and here's what we need for that,
11:54
more people are willing to come alongside that
11:56
than they are the guilt trip.
11:57
Like, oh my goodness, we have to talk about money.
12:00
So throw your money in the plate. Uh, your granny
12:03
and your auntie give, so make sure not to
12:06
disappoint them. You know, all of those crazy
12:08
things that we talk about. Um, or the, hey, if you
12:12
just give up a soda a day, right. You could put
12:14
that money in the plate. And it's like, well,
12:16
that's not very compelling to me.
12:17
>> Loren: Mhm.
12:18
>> Speaker D: I'd rather have a soda than not. So have a nice
12:21
day.
12:22
>> Loren: I do like my Diet Pepsi.
12:24
>> Speaker D: Yeah, well, almost every day you need to convert
12:27
to Coke Zero. And I do mean convert. So. Does that
12:32
make sense?
12:33
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good. I mean, I think that you're
12:36
hitting on some trends or some. Not trends is the
12:40
right word, but, um, tropes, that's what I'm
12:43
looking for. That we hear again and again in
12:46
church. I'm thinking also of the narrative that
12:52
you probably heard as much as I have, like, oh,
12:54
churches are money hungry. They always talk about
12:56
money. So there's this weird, there's this weird
13:00
disconnect or.
13:04
>> Speaker D: This weird. Totally agree. Yeah, totally, totally
13:06
agree.
13:07
>> Loren: Uh, what is that about?
13:08
>> Speaker D: Like, I think some churches do just focus on the
13:13
guilt and shame side of it. You're going to be a
13:16
better person if you give more money or, you know,
13:19
the. Church roof is going to leak. And if you
13:22
don't give your money, then, I mean, it's just
13:24
focused on guilt and shame and you know, I mean,
13:28
imagine if we talked about, uh, child rearing the
13:32
same way, right?
13:33
>> Loren: I mean, some do.
13:35
>> Speaker D: That's good point. But what's been the effect of
13:38
that, it's all been negative. Right. And so let's
13:40
start thinking about money as not evil.
13:44
>> Loren: Right.
13:44
>> Speaker D: But as a resource and a tool. And if we're able to
13:48
carefully and clearly tell people what their money
13:52
will do, it's way more exciting. Um, and, you
13:56
know, it cuts into that, you know, feeling of
14:00
guilt. It's like, we're not going to guilt you
14:02
into this, but we're going to ask you to join us,
14:04
come alongside of us. And I think that's way more
14:07
compelling than the guilt trip. Yeah, some
14:12
churches do it poorly, so, I mean, there is a
14:14
reason why people say those things. I do agree.
14:16
But we, uh, need to change how we talk about it.
14:19
>> Loren: Well, I think about this too, Jason. It's like
14:22
nonprofits. Like, I've not been in the nonprofit
14:25
space for, uh, uh, when I think like, outside of
14:27
church nonprofit space for like, a long, long
14:31
time. But it's like nonprofits. Like, I get emails
14:35
from some of the nonprofits I support, like,
14:37
incessantly, it feels like.
14:39
>> Speaker D: Right, right.
14:40
>> Loren: So it's not like they're not talking about money a
14:42
lot. So I think. Is it just that, like, churches
14:45
aren't talking about money?
14:47
>> Speaker D: Well, yes, I think they're just talking about the
14:52
paper. Like, one of the guys I learned from, he
14:55
said we need to stop talking about money. It's
14:58
like, um, years ago, decades ago, when the
15:02
American, um, Indians were prominent here, they
15:07
would exchange wampum, right. Which is a currency
15:11
that you and I don't understand. But essentially
15:13
that's what we're doing when we send out those
15:15
emails. We're just trading wampum with people.
15:18
Give us your wampum, we'll give you ours. And, um,
15:21
it just is not a good way to talk about money and
15:25
to continually put an ask in front of somebody
15:28
without talking about the impact or the change.
15:31
You know, they just consider you to be an ATM
15:34
machine and it's just not a good. It's not a good
15:37
way to talk about money.
15:39
>> Loren: Um, so, yeah, I'm reminded of, like, I was
15:44
listening to an interview some, some years back, a
15:48
few years back, uh, with like, a executive from
15:51
Chick Fil A, Right? And he's talking about how,
15:54
like, they have this mindset of, like, where in
15:56
most fat fast food companies, it's like they see
15:59
someone in line and think like, how can I get the
16:01
20 bucks out of that guy's pocket? Whereas Chick
16:04
Fil A tries to have the attitude of like, how can
16:07
I, I don't know, bring the most value yeah. To
16:11
that person and their $20.
16:14
>> Speaker D: Yeah. I think when we invite people into the
16:19
change process and talk to them about the
16:21
opportunity that they have to do some good with
16:23
their money. Mhm. Um, it's so much better. One
16:28
thing that I didn't say that probably we should is
16:30
you should also give people a space to say no.
16:34
Mhm. Right. I think a lot of fundraisers are like,
16:37
man, if they say no, that's the end of the world.
16:39
And they don't. It's, you know what it is a
16:42
decision that they need to make and you need to be
16:44
okay as long as you, you do your very best to talk
16:47
about. Here's the change that we're trying to
16:49
engender in the world.
16:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
16:51
>> Speaker D: And you can join us and kind of, you know, like
16:53
everything else. Here's the cost.
16:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
16:55
>> Speaker D: So just serving people better that way.
16:58
>> Loren: So I'm thinking about when we're thinking about
17:00
like messaging and giving people space to say no,
17:03
like, is this one of the challenges with churches?
17:06
Because like, you're dealing with, I mean, this is
17:09
less true like now as it has been historically,
17:12
like data suggests, like churches almost
17:15
exclusively are like upper class folks. But like,
17:18
is this like the challenge of church historically
17:21
in that there's different, to use a, uh,
17:23
fundraising term, segments?
17:26
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
17:26
>> Loren: Like, do churches need to do a better job of
17:28
thinking about how they're communicating with
17:30
their different giving segments?
17:33
>> Speaker D: I think that would help Loren. Actually, you know,
17:35
for me, giving is a very personal thing. And so I
17:40
just wish, you know, I never did this when I was
17:41
in ministry because I didn't know about it. But I
17:45
think we should meet with people as a family or an
17:48
individual and to make an ask. Because it's that
17:52
personal, right?
17:54
>> Loren: Mhm.
17:55
>> Speaker D: I mean, oftentimes, you know, we sit in a room and
17:57
you've been into these fundraising events and they
17:59
make an ask and you look around and you're like,
18:02
well, I'm glad John and Jane Smith are here
18:04
tonight to write the check. I'm off the hook.
18:07
Right. So it needs to be more direct, it needs to
18:11
be more personable. But like you said, the word
18:13
segment is a good word. It needs to be geared
18:15
toward what we think they can or can't do. Um, if
18:21
you ask too little, then the guy who can give a
18:24
lot says, you must not have a very big vision.
18:26
>> Loren: Right, Right.
18:28
>> Speaker D: And then if you ask too m. I'd rather ask for too
18:30
much because you can always back that down. It's
18:32
like, oh. They're like, I don't have that kind of
18:35
money. Okay, well let's talk about what would be
18:37
meaningful to you then. Um, and always keep that
18:40
in view.
18:42
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good. I'm thinking about this even
18:44
in my own context.
18:46
Something I want to ask about is I had this
18:50
conversation with, on a past episode with Cheryl
18:53
Johnson, who's a, A uh, clergy person in Canada
18:58
and also works in the United States. And we talked
19:01
about like the donor centered fundraising and how
19:04
that model is not always like a perfect fit for
19:06
churches because certainly in church space, like
19:09
we're asking someone to, like we're asking them to
19:12
grow and have a more of a life shaped more by the
19:16
gospel message of Jesus. What are your thoughts on
19:20
like that donor centered model in like in church
19:24
spaces and might it need to be tweaked a little
19:26
bit?
19:27
>> Speaker D: Um, I like donor center models, um, because we're
19:34
really just talking about the passion and the
19:37
interest of that individual. Um, and also. We just
19:43
have to know exactly where we're going with things
19:45
too. Because if we just sit in front of somebody
19:48
and say, well this is your duty to give, it just
19:51
doesn't feel genuine or authentic.
19:53
>> Loren: Mhm.
19:55
>> Speaker D: Um, but this, you know, this speaks to the point
19:59
that you need to really know people. Like if
20:01
somebody has worked in the nursery for 20 years,
20:04
you probably want to talk to them about giving to
20:06
the kids programs first.
20:08
>> Loren: Right.
20:09
>> Speaker D: But at the same time, I think going to people and
20:12
just asking them what they're interested in,
20:14
figuring out what it is that makes them tick, that
20:17
you know, hey, you don't just give them one
20:19
option. Mhm. Put several options in front of them
20:23
to say, you know, we have a, we need some help in
20:25
the kids area or we've got this really growing
20:28
teens thing or we want to plan another site
20:31
someday. Mhm. Which of these really interests you?
20:34
How. What would you like to get on board with and
20:37
help, I think that's much better than just going
20:40
and ramming one ask down somebody's throat and
20:43
saying, here's what we need. Give it to us or we.
20:46
It's all a bust, it's all lost. So um, that's how
20:51
I'm done. That's how I'm donor centric is focusing
20:53
on their passions and then presenting a need to
20:56
them that they can buy into.
20:59
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking
21:02
too of, I uh, want to go back to this just because
21:05
I think it's important of like the, the money
21:07
scripts and the money scripts of the leader or the
21:11
pastor making the ask like I'M going to share this
21:15
story because I always chuckle. Like several,
21:17
several years ago, I was sharing with someone
21:20
about, like, how I always felt guilty, like,
21:23
sitting in traditional church when the plate was
21:25
passed in front of me and like, I didn't put
21:27
anything in. Like, I always felt guilty passing it
21:29
on. And like, the person I was talking to was
21:32
saying how they felt annoyed when someone, like,
21:36
skipped them over entirely with a plate, like,
21:38
assuming they didn't have any money to give. But
21:42
those scripts, those understand understandings of
21:45
money, really get in the way of a leader or a
21:50
pastor. So what's your best advice to whether it's
21:55
maybe it's a pastor thinking through, uh, to use
21:59
these words. I've seen a few of these emails
22:01
coming up. It's this season in church, like a
22:03
stewardship campaign, right?
22:10
>> Speaker D: Uh, I may not be the best guy to answer this
22:13
honestly. I think churches have gone from passing
22:17
the plate to putting it at the back of the
22:19
auditorium. But I've seen bad things happen in
22:22
churches that put it at the back, that never
22:24
mention it. Never talk about what the church is up
22:27
to and where we're headed and how you can connect
22:30
to that. Um, sometimes passing the plate is, like
22:35
you said, it's sort of a referendum on your
22:37
giving. It's like, I don't need to feel guilty
22:40
every week that I don't put a dollar in the plate.
22:43
Um, but at the same time, if you haven't thought
22:46
yet about what it is you. You're going to give and
22:48
how you're going to give, you, um, need to have
22:51
that conversation with somebody. Um, it isn't. So,
22:56
you know, that's like sort of in the moment. Give
22:58
money or you're a bad guy. And I just don't like
23:01
that. I think that's the thing that chases people
23:03
away. So if it were me, I would really go back to
23:07
pastors and I would say, figure out what it is
23:10
that you're trying to accomplish here. Figure out
23:13
your main priorities attached to that and then
23:15
what is it going to cost for this church to
23:17
accomplish that mission? M and then talk to people
23:20
in real terms that way instead of just giving to
23:23
this nebulous black hole. It's like, no, your
23:26
funding is helping us do this really great thing
23:29
in this community to change lives this way or that
23:31
way. And you know, sometimes people are like,
23:33
well, I don't really care about that. Politely
23:36
help them find another place where they can get on
23:38
board with something that's happening. M
23:40
Otherwise, you know, that person will kill giving.
23:44
Uh, in an unbelievable way to say, well, I don't
23:47
know why we're always giving money to this or
23:49
that. And it's just like man, with you around,
23:53
this is never going to happen. You know, I mean
23:56
it's sad but I've seen it happen. Yeah, yeah,
23:59
yeah.
24:00
>> Loren: So let's think about this because this is
24:01
certainly a challenge in many churches where older
24:04
generations are of uh, a huge part of the overall
24:09
budget of giving percentage wise. And certainly
24:12
there's some hard facts reality.
24:17
Socioeconomically, matter of fact, younger folks
24:21
just don't have the levels of income necessarily
24:24
to sustain and support. But what do you advise
24:27
when you're thinking about whether it's working
24:30
with nonprofits and churches to balance out, to
24:33
diversify, whatever the terminology is, the, the
24:37
givers.
24:38
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I think with the younger set they would
24:41
rather give on their phone than they would in a
24:43
paper way. So maybe come up with some kind of a
24:46
fun campaign that lasts for a month that you can
24:49
say, hey, if you're under 25, we want you to be
24:51
involved in this. 20 bucks this month or whatever,
24:54
something like that. Mhm. Uh, something highly
24:57
focused, short and media, electronic driven. I
25:02
guess that's where I'm seeing most young folks
25:06
give. You're just trying to maybe build a habit
25:09
and connect giving to a real problem.
25:11
>> Loren: Mhm.
25:12
>> Speaker D: And I think they like that kind of thing. So you
25:16
know, whatever your church can do to devise that
25:19
method of giving, I would highly encourage it.
25:23
>> Loren: You talk about building a habit. I think there's
25:26
that stereotype that uh, young people, these
25:28
younger generations like aren't committed to
25:31
institutions or organizations like the older
25:34
generations. Do you think it's simple, uh, as like
25:36
that the habit hasn't been built for them?
25:40
>> Speaker D: Uh, well, I think so, especially when it comes
25:42
into a spiritual context. But you know, they give
25:46
$10 a month to Spotify, they have that habit built
25:50
in. So it's not like they don't get it right. No
25:53
one has ever really challenged them and just said,
25:55
hey, we need you guys, you're a big part of this.
25:58
Here's how you can help. You know, I think just
26:02
getting engaged in their life to talk about it
26:05
instead of being afraid of it, like, oh no, if we
26:07
talk about money, the 20 year olds are always
26:09
going to run away. And it's like I don't think so.
26:11
I think they want that deeper challenge and
26:13
commitment and they really want to build something
26:16
with you. So give them a chance to do it.
26:19
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good thinking about like
26:22
again, we've kind of been talking in and around
26:25
like churches, nonprofits, back and forth. What do
26:28
you think are some practical things a church could
26:32
learn from a nonprofit? One example that I've
26:36
heard. Uh, I've heard in Southern Baptist spaces,
26:40
more and more they're bringing on a stewardship
26:42
director in a church, which is surprising, but I
26:46
guess not. Are you seeing that too? And then what
26:49
do you think other trends that churches could pick
26:52
up on?
26:52
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I'm seeing that a little bit. I like that
26:54
idea because it puts somebody directly in charge
26:58
of the gifts that come in and the people that are
27:01
giving them.
27:02
>> Loren: Mhm.
27:02
>> Speaker D: I've just been in so many churches where it's just
27:04
hush, hush, secretive. And it's like we can't ever
27:07
build out a program if we don't know who's giving
27:09
and who's not and how to approach them and how to
27:12
not approach them. Um, so I think that's a great
27:17
start. Hire somebody who will help focus on
27:19
building the, I would call it a culture of giving
27:22
or a culture of philanthropy. Um, let's get
27:26
somebody talking about it more often than just
27:28
once a year for the money talk. M. I, um, think,
27:32
you know, churches need to do a better job of
27:35
figuring out what it is that they're trying to do
27:37
also.
27:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
27:38
>> Speaker D: If that makes sense. It's like, this is our, this
27:40
is our thing, this is our hill, this is our cause.
27:44
And um, they can articulate it clearly and they
27:47
can talk about, you know, what they need to solve
27:50
that problem and what it's going to cost. That's
27:53
the most practical thing I think you can do. Then
27:55
you can sort of figure out, okay, this is the kind
27:58
of budget we need to build to make that goal
28:01
happen. Um, and it kind of brings everyone
28:05
together. I mean if you can get everyone around a
28:07
shared vision, uh, it's amazing where that people
28:11
find money.
28:12
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, it is.
28:14
You know, this leads me to a more a, uh, broader
28:17
thought and I'm curious like Jason. As far as,
28:22
like, I know you've worked primarily in non
28:25
denominational evangelical spaces. Right. Like
28:27
that's your right.
28:28
>> Speaker D: Correct.
28:28
>> Loren: So a lot of my background is in mainline more
28:31
established churches, like denominational
28:34
churches. And I'm wondering like, thinking about
28:38
how denominational churches like, often had like
28:41
the, the institution, like the denominational
28:44
legacy to kind of set their tone. Do you think
28:47
that's something that non denominational churches
28:49
or evangelical churches have had sort of, sort of
28:52
been forced into that's worked well for them is
28:54
they've kind of had to Individually, like
28:56
establish their own kind of what we're about.
28:58
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I definitely think it's an advantage if
29:01
you're able to set your own tone and your own
29:03
agenda. Um, yeah, the main, the mainline church
29:07
might have a little bit more difficulty, but um,
29:11
maybe they, I don't know how it works. Maybe you
29:13
need to lead up a little bit more and say, we'd
29:15
really like to initiate this sort of, uh, of a
29:18
ministry in our, in our area and here's how we're
29:20
going to go about it. Um, perhaps that could be a
29:24
good model for other churches in that mainline
29:26
denomination. Um, but I definitely think, you
29:30
know, the, the standalone or non denominational,
29:33
whatever you want to call it, has an advantage.
29:34
That way we can pivot more quickly, which is
29:38
sometimes really what you need in the, in the
29:40
funding world is to be able to just pivot on a
29:43
dime. It's like, okay, that isn't working. We need
29:46
to recalibrate and keep moving forward with
29:49
something that will work.
29:51
>> Loren: Yeah. Because, uh, you know, I'm thinking like
29:53
most denominations will have some sort of like
29:56
nationally driven, like national offering,
30:01
whether, you know, for the denominational causes.
30:05
So there's some sort of like. And I guess it goes
30:08
back to this. Right. Like whatever your context is
30:12
that I imagine you'd agree with this. Like, you
30:13
have to figure out some way of like tying that
30:15
into your story. Right. So it makes sense to your
30:20
attendees and givers, what have you.
30:23
>> Speaker D: Definitely. And you can do that, you can tie the
30:25
broader story to your local story. Um, as long as
30:29
you have a story.
30:31
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, that's, that's sort
30:36
of it, right?
30:37
>> Speaker D: Like, uh, yeah, it is.
30:38
>> Loren: You and I are both familiar with like storybrand.
30:40
>> Speaker D: Right, right, right.
30:43
>> Loren: I'll have to reference that past episode. But for,
30:47
for listeners unfamiliar, like storybrand is
30:50
basically this marketing concept, which marketing
30:53
gets a scary, uh, word for many church folks. But
30:58
like, what I appreciate about the story brand
31:01
approach is really like telling a story and
31:03
telling people how they can be a part of that
31:05
story, involved in that story. And I mean, I think
31:09
this is, I suppose again I'm getting into broader
31:13
kind of macro level stuff is like in American
31:16
Christianity, at least since like 1950 to 2000, to
31:20
some extent, like there's just been this
31:23
assumption that you could just kind of roll out a
31:26
church and people would show up and understand
31:29
like what that church was about and what they were
31:31
trying to do. And that doesn't work anymore.
31:37
>> Speaker D: That's right. That's right. Well, uh, actually,
31:41
you know, they think they already know what that
31:44
church does when they start one. Yeah, there's a
31:47
lot of negativity around that. It's like, oh,
31:49
they're the people that fill in the negative
31:52
blank. So we have to work twice as hard to get the
31:56
story out in a way that's compelling, accurate,
32:00
and will involve people in real life change. I
32:04
still think, Loren, I still think people want
32:05
something deeper and more meaningful in their
32:07
life. And that's what we're trying to create here.
32:10
I'm not trying to trick people out of their money.
32:13
You know, this isn't some sort of a, uh, money
32:15
making scheme, you know, like at the back channel,
32:18
infomercial stuff. This is, you know, we're really
32:22
like, talking about, here's how we really want to
32:24
change the world. Let's try and do it. And it's
32:26
going to take resources to do that.
32:30
>> Loren: Let me, let's ask just like a couple practical
32:33
questions or, uh, some thoughts. Like, I'm
32:35
thinking about, like, the church I attend did a
32:39
capital campaign. I m think about a year ago, if
32:42
I'm remembering a little more, over a year ago.
32:45
And of course, like, they, they had their quiet
32:47
phase and then they came out with their, their
32:49
public announcement and, you know, great job.
32:52
Like, they had like 60% of it funded already, if
32:56
not more, I can't remember. So they just did like
32:57
a great job. One of the things I really liked
33:00
about it was like, in each phase, they had phases.
33:02
Was each phase, like, there was something external
33:06
about. The funds that were being raised. So
33:10
obviously the majority of the funds were like,
33:12
building improvements and what have you. But for
33:15
each part of the phase, there's some kind of
33:18
external project. Uh, they have a parking lot
33:21
ministry, which is meant for people who are
33:23
unhoused and need somewhere to go. It's like part
33:27
of the phase was like, hey, we're going to
33:28
remodel, uh, some part of our building to make are
33:32
showers accessible for folks overnight.
33:35
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
33:36
>> Loren: How have you seen churches do a good job of like,
33:40
fundraising? So it's obviously internal. Like
33:43
they're trying to pay for the roof, but also to
33:47
tell the story, like, hey, this is having a
33:49
broader impact than just like, our roof.
33:52
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So one of the best places I saw that was,
33:55
you know, there's a large church there in
33:57
Colorado, as a matter of fact, um, they were doing
34:01
campaigns to help build places in, uh, parts of
34:05
the world where there was a lot of hurt, a lot of
34:07
famine. And they're like, hey, we're going to
34:10
this. I don't know if I can name the place or not,
34:11
but we're going to this place and we're going to
34:13
build a hospital and we're going to build a
34:14
school.
34:15
>> Loren: Wow.
34:16
>> Speaker D: And we're going to do that so well that they're
34:17
going to ask us at the end of the day, why are you
34:20
doing this? And then the broader context is, well,
34:23
we're here because of the gospel. And so I think
34:27
if you can, like your church, uh, funding strategy
34:30
I think is good. Uh, we're going to set up showers
34:33
for, um, that segment of people who are coming.
34:37
Here's about how many of them will come. Here's
34:39
about how many opportunities we'll have to share
34:41
with them. If you talk about how it's making a
34:43
difference in those people's lives, that often
34:46
tends to be more successful.
34:48
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything churches should start
34:53
doing immediately or stop doing immediately.
34:57
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Stop the money talk thing. Stop feeling
35:00
guilty that you're talking about money. Enough of
35:02
that. It's okay to talk about money, but stop also
35:06
attaching that to shame and guilt.
35:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:09
>> Speaker D: Right. I think churches need to just get together
35:12
and like, uh, what is it that we want to do and
35:15
what are we asking people to sign on for? And if
35:18
it's not, if none of us are excited about that,
35:21
it's time to make a change. So what are we excited
35:25
about? What is that going to cost? And let's just
35:28
approach people in humility and, uh, also with the
35:32
level of excitement that this is really going to
35:35
make a difference. Let's talk.
35:37
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, let's take a break
35:40
here, and we'll come back with some closing
35:43
questions.
35:47
All right, we're back with Jason Hanselman. And
35:49
Jason, uh, the closing questions, you're welcome
35:52
to take them as seriously or not as you'd like to.
35:55
>> Speaker D: Okay.
35:55
>> Loren: But if you're Pope for a day. What do you want to
35:59
do? Or maybe some like. Do you have any kind of,
36:01
like, direct papa bulls about fundraising? You
36:05
know, take it as you want to.
36:07
>> Speaker D: Wow. I don't. I don't. That wouldn't be any fun. I
36:10
don't want to connect that to fundraising.
36:11
>> Loren: Okay. Okay. Well, be Pope for a day.
36:13
>> Speaker D: Gone down. That. Yeah, I almost said. And I think
36:15
I've heard other guests talk about wearing the hat
36:18
or riding in the mobile. Those are great. They've
36:21
already been taken. I've always wanted to go to
36:23
Italy. Mhm. So I would make it, uh, Art Day. Let's
36:30
make it Art Week. My family gets to go and just
36:33
explore art Around Italy for a week. That's really
36:37
what I would want to do as Pope.
36:40
>> Loren: Well, the nice thing that you're Pope is like, you
36:43
run the show. Like you get the whole museum, uh,
36:45
to yourself.
36:47
>> Speaker D: I would like to touch some of the surfaces of the
36:50
paint as Pope. I think you can do that probably if
36:53
you go into a museum now, you know, once you get a
36:56
foot away from a painting, somebody is on top of
36:58
you to give back. So you really want to feel that
37:01
paint.
37:02
>> Loren: You could probably touch that canvas.
37:05
>> Speaker D: I would wear gloves, I mean, obviously. But I want
37:09
to get close to that art. That's really what I
37:11
want to do.
37:12
>> Loren: M Good, Good. A, uh, theologian or historical
37:15
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
37:17
to life.
37:20
>> Speaker D: Um, you know what? We talk a lot about Dietrich
37:23
Bonhoeffer around here. I would love to bring
37:24
Dietrich back.
37:26
>> Loren: Mhm.
37:27
>> Speaker D: Um, just his grit and his tenacity and his. Love
37:34
for people who hated him. M just fascinates me. So
37:38
I'd love to just have a sit down with Dietrich and
37:42
just talk about life and have him. Tell me what I
37:47
need to do with my life. Um, I think it would be
37:50
an interesting conversation, interesting guy to
37:52
talk with.
37:53
>> Loren: Absolutely.
37:54
What do you think history will remember from our
37:57
current time and place?
38:00
>> Speaker D: I think it depends on which way it goes. Right. I
38:03
think it could be the biggest opportunity ever
38:05
blown in the history of mankind. Um, because
38:08
there's a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of
38:10
hurt and there's a lot of spaces that church needs
38:13
to fill. And so, you know, I know a lot of people
38:16
talk about, oh, uh, the world's blowing up, going
38:19
crazy, it's the worst time we've ever seen. I
38:22
don't know. There's a lot of. I view it as.
38:23
There's a lot of opportunity to make a lot of
38:25
change, and I hope that's what we do.
38:28
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I'm reminded of. We had Mike Cosper on
38:32
some time ago, and he said something like, you
38:34
know, it really depends, like, how, how, how
38:38
things happen Will, like, depend on how, like, we
38:42
view, like, Elon Musk, for instance, like, uh, you
38:44
know.
38:45
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
38:46
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:46
>> Speaker D: Well, will our generation see revival like other
38:49
generations or not? I mean, I don't know. We'll
38:52
see.
38:52
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Where do you hope for the future of
38:55
Christianity? I'm.
39:00
>> Speaker D: I'm hoping that we. This sound weird and maybe
39:02
not, but let's return to where we started. We just
39:07
seem. It just seems like we have so many
39:09
entanglements and so many things that really
39:12
aren't about the main thing.
39:14
>> Loren: Yeah.
39:14
>> Speaker D: Let's get back to early church days and focusing
39:18
on community, focusing on life change, living, uh,
39:23
in the power of the Holy Spirit. You know, all of
39:27
those things were pretty great.
39:30
>> Loren: I suppose this gets into a fundraising question to
39:33
some extent. Like, I'm thinking of a recent guest,
39:36
Michelle Van Loon, who wrote about downsizing
39:39
evangelicalism. And part of her, her thing was
39:44
saying, like, we don't really need all these
39:45
institutions. Yeah, like this is sort of a
39:48
fundraising question too. Like. Is there, does
39:53
there need to be some simplicity around
39:56
organizations and structures?
39:58
>> Speaker D: Yes, uh, I do. Um, I think just, if we could just
40:03
simplify to. Hey, let's think really big. Mm mhm.
40:07
Let's build really simple and let's take some
40:11
action. I stole those from another group, but I
40:14
really think that's the core essence of it.
40:16
Instead of, oh, uh, we have to have a major gifts
40:18
program, we have to have an annual fund, we have
40:21
to have a planned giving, we have to, you know, so
40:24
many arms and it's just like, let's just trim the
40:28
fat and just get a really great story about a
40:32
really great organization, really changing lives
40:35
and just go out and talk to people about that and
40:37
invite them, give them an opportunity to join that
40:39
story.
40:40
>> Loren: Yeah. So what was that? Think big.
40:44
>> Speaker D: Um, simplify. And act now. Yeah.
40:49
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, uh, share with folks how they can get
40:53
a hold of you, connect with you, all that stuff.
40:55
>> Speaker D: Yeah, that's a great question. So, uh, my official
40:59
email is Jason FY V as in victormail.com. i just
41:06
wrote a fundraising fable that I would love for
41:08
people to get a hold of. Um, I'm happy to give
41:12
that away free, digitally. Just reach out to me by
41:14
email. Um, and that's the best way to get a hold
41:17
of me, Loren, is through that email. If people
41:19
want to continue discussions about how they can
41:22
raise money better or even just say, hey, I have
41:26
an issue that I'm tangled up in. Let's talk. Um,
41:29
I've had people in my life who've just come
41:30
alongside me and done that, giving me a half hour
41:33
of their time to say, here's how you need to think
41:36
about that differently or here's how you need to
41:37
act differently.
41:39
>> Loren: Yeah. And I've read the book, you know, the
41:42
booklet, I guess, if you will. Like, it's uh,
41:44
really simple, easy. Like I read it, I think on a
41:47
plane ride and like the second half of the plane
41:50
ride, like I printed out the book, the second half
41:53
of the plane ride, I like scratched out Some ideas
41:56
based on the concepts in the book. So really
42:00
recommend it, I think, too, like what you've been
42:03
saying all along here, simplicity is the way to
42:06
go. Like sharing. Sharing stories, sharing
42:09
passion, connecting with their vision makes so
42:12
much more sense than overloading them with, um,
42:15
money.
42:16
>> Speaker D: Right, right, right. Nobody likes that. Nobody
42:19
likes that. Don't do that. I can tell the book
42:22
changed your life, Loren. There's a glow about
42:24
you.
42:24
>> Loren: Yeah, I was laughing, like, I mean, uh, we should
42:29
wrap up here. But I'm just thinking of my own
42:31
experience. I was leading a small church. Money
42:34
was a challenge. M. We were 13k in the hole, which
42:38
was off a budget of less than 100k. So it was a
42:41
big chunk of money, relatively speaking, for the
42:44
annual budget. And I got up there and said, hey,
42:48
there's some challenges here. But then I
42:50
highlighted things that were going right, progress
42:53
that was being made, uh, and people were like, oh,
42:56
yeah, I'm willing to give more. And then, like,
43:00
two years later, I went away on sabbatical. They
43:03
had a money crunch and they were like, the ship is
43:06
sinking. Give money.
43:08
>> Speaker D: Oh, no.
43:09
>> Loren: And the second one didn't work as well. So, yeah,
43:14
I mean, it really does make a difference. So, uh,
43:17
check out Jason's work. We'll make sure to have
43:19
links to him in the show notes. Jason, uh, we
43:22
always leave folks with a word of peace, so may
43:24
God's peace be with you.
43:26
>> Speaker D: Thank. Thanks again, Loren. Appreciate it.
43:35
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
43:37
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
43:40
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
43:43
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43:45
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