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Grinding your way to an opportunity with guest Kevin Kelly · Scouting the League

• Rodrik David: How you parlay a night shifted warehouse into a career in the NFL and at the highest levels of college football? Only today's guest knows. Kevin Kelly, Senior Director of Player Personnel Evaluation and Scouting at Clemson, joins Neil and I to talk all things scouting journey, night meetings, GMs he's worked with, and more today on Scouting the League. But before we jump in, Make sure you head over, like, subscribe, share this podcast wherever you are listening and watching, whether it's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, that video portion on YouTube, hit those buttons. Subscribing and commenting are what really helps us out. Make sure you head over to Twitter. Give me a follow at Wright StepAdv on my website. Everything I have to offer over at rsafootball.com. If you're our s an NFL scout or want to be an NFL scout, make sure you check out thescoutingcommunity.com as well. resources for everybody in the industry, no matter where you are at. I want to help you take those next right steps to make your dream in the NFL or make that NFL dream just a little bit sweeter if you're already there. So the scoutingcommunity.com is the spot for you. Make sure you check out the best insoles on the market over at blue maca.com as well. Use code scouting20 while you're there to make sure they know we sent you. Get a little discount on that order as well. The insoles will upgrade every pair of shoes you have. You get ready to hit the road. You need some nice, comfortable insoles. Upgrade the shoes that you already have. You don't want that stock insole to get getting gonna get worn out. Whether it's non-slip, whether it's comfort support, art support, no matter what it is, blue maka.com has the insole for you. So make sure you go check that out. And don't forget that code Scouting20. And if you are an agent or school listening and you're going to be looking for some reports this fall, well, I have something cooking up for you. Right Step Scouting is about to launch and is going to be your one stop shop for all things scouting. From draft reports, portal reports, video reports, and more, make sure you keep following me. Tune in for more as it is just about time to launch, just in time for both the symposium and the fall season. And I will see you in Nashville. The 2026 recruiting and personal personnel symposium is just a few weeks away. Neil and I will be there. Hopefully we will see you there as well, listening to some great speakers, getting in some great sessions, probably doing a little podcast stuff there for Scouting the League as well. So look forward to seeing you in Nashville. Well, I am side excited to bring on our next guest today, Kevin Kelly, a man that is now a tiger, but wore the NFL jersey for a long while. A scout scout, a man that I personally was in a number of visits, did a lot of pro days, me and Kevin spent some time watching some film together. Kevin Kelly, welcome to the Scouting the League podcast. Kevin: a pleasure to be here. Just love everything about inside the league and everything you guys do for scouting, for football. It's my pleasure. Rodrik David: Yeah, it's it's fun having you on. Neil Stratton: Well, it's a pleasure to have you on. Just like Roderick said, a scout scout KK. We're really, really happy to have you, buddy. Now what you now you've it's been an interesting, long, strange journey for you. We always like to start off with the origin story. Kevin, how'd you go from a small college defensive assistant to a high school coach to a scout? Kevin: Well, I I mean I'll take you back. my kind of education in football. I grew up in Chicago, big suburban high school. I was on a good high school team. when I was in high school, this is the early eighties. you know, I met the great Walter Payton at a twenty-four hour health club in the middle the night. And you know, that he would that relationship you know, we became workout partners my rest of my football career. So I walked on at Miami. I was on the eighty three national title team. And, you know, had no idea I was walking on the best team of the country. they were independent and Coach Sellenberger was there. But you know, Howard Sollenberger he's disciple of the great bear Bryant. so, you know, watched him lead a team to a national championship. really a just a loaded football team. A lot of guys went on. Things twenty seven guys went on in the league. And then yeah, he was in my r he was in my recruiting class. So he Alonzo, I would say this, you know, Alonzo was the first recruit and I was the last. but our Miami rings look the same. We kid about that, you know. now it was incredible. I mean Jerome Brown was in my class. Neil Stratton: Kep Kev was Zoe on that team, Kevin? Kevin: you know, the quarterbacks were Kosar and Testaverdi. I mean, y y the list is incredible. and then Coach Sudberger, you know, he left for the US FL. had he gone right to Louisville, I probably would have followed him. But I left for Indiana. They had recruited me in high school when those that staff was in northern Illinois and walked on there. And it worked out. you know, I earned three letters of scholarship. And then I was a graduate assistant and I worked for Bill Mallory. He's a disciple of Woody Hayes. Before Indiana's had their amazing run the last two seasons. I was on, you know, a couple of the very best teams in school history. I was on a team my senior year at Beat Ohio State and Michigan's. same season. It's only been done once in Indiana's history. to this day because you know a year ago they didn't play Michigan. So I mean they they would have gotten them obviously. But yeah so I watched Bill Mallory kind of return that program around. I mean we beat Ohio State in back to back years. we beat him 31 to 10 in the shoe. and Earl Bruce called that darkest day in Ohio State history. then they came back for revenge a year later and beat them 41 to 7. So we beat them 72 to 17 in back-to-back years. Bo Schembecker was at Michigan. Coach Coach Mallory's boys were at Michigan. It was a pretty incredible time. Then I was a graduate assistant for Coach Mallory. I got into coaching, you know, got a master's degree. but You know, the the story I think really of my career, you know, I've really I've grinded, I've you know, none of this has been kinda handed. my playing career, I mean, you heard me talk about being a walk on, earning that scholarship. you know, I left as a GA, I couldn't get a full time coaching job. So, I I wanted to just keep it alive even though I had a master's degree. I I I got a job at Lake Forest College, coaching both sides of the ball, Division III School in Chicago near where, you know, in the kind of general area where I grew up. lived at home. took a job as in the in a distribution center in downtown Chicago, working the graveyard shift, throwing cases of shampoo on a pallet or a truck. freight hours. you know, I changed in the car on my way up to Lake Forest to coach. I coached the linebackers, coached the def I called coach tight ends. I we had we had over 200 players in the team. Not I'm sorry, that's John Carroll. I Lake Forest was a small team. And so you know I did that and what's really incredible about that job Is that the foreman at the distribution center where I worked, you know, none of them kinda understood while I was there with my college education and everything. And finally when I told you know, they kind of got behind what I was doing and why I was doing it and stuff. And so I w I turned to my two week notice I met my wife of now 33 years and decided I want to get married. I I got another job, a sales job. I was gonna move to Cleveland and figure out my coaching dreams when I got there. and so what was incredible is the foreman at the distribution center played a John Carroll. And you know, he just was like, you gotta keep this alive, you gotta coach. And you know, I'll make a phone call for you, Coach Kelly, and and you know, I'm like, hey, I gotta I gotta figure this out when I get there. All right. So that's how I got the John John Carroll interview. I coached linebackers there. I coached I mean JV team, varsity team, freshman team. I mean, we'd have three games a week at times, 200 players in the team. You know, we could beat everybody in the league except Mountain Union. really incredible program. and that is where you know I had, you know, one of the MasterCard moments in my career. I I coached Bill Polling's son, Brian. he was a backup linebacker and you know, Bill's the general manager of Buffalo Bills going to the four Super Bowls in a row. and incredibly on that team Dave Caldwell was a backup linebacker. I coached Dave also, you know, former general manager of the Jaguars and currently the general manager of Florida. Greg Roman was a defensive lineman. you know, when I left the Chargers, Greg was our offensive coordinator. He's with John Harbaugh, now in New York, great football coach. really should be an NFL head coach. you know, my former boss of the Chargers, Tom Telesco was the receiver. Chris Pollian, who was obviously I worked with him in Indianapolis with Bill. He was our general manager in Indy. he was on offense. you know, right right then I I when I left is when Nick Casario showed up and Josh McDaniels also. and I had moved on to Case Western to be a defensive coordinator. And really that that whole group there of those guys with those NFL backgrounds, you know, the perfect storm happened. Bill Pollian got the Carolina Panthers job as a president. It was an expansion team, so they needed, you know, just not one or two interns. They needed a bunch. And so, you know, is the perfect kind of partnership with it's really Brian Polian. he's really the guy. you know, help his with his dad, get the get his buddy, his his teammates jobs. And those guys are division three grinders. They football. They work hard. They've all made their way. They're incredible NFL people and you know, rest is history there. But that that's kinda how it I I left I was at Case Western and I'm I had gotten another job paying my bills because all these division three jobs, you know, they give you a stipend, it's like a high school job, it's nothing. I just you know, I tell my wife I just signed the check over you. if you'd let me keep this going. and I I got a job at IMG because I had a sports sports marketing Master's degree. And so I worked at IMG in their motorsports division, which is really wild. Now at my age, I have a son who's a race engineer on NASCAR team at Hendrick Motorsport. yep. He works in the 24 car. and then I wanted to be a head coach and see if I could do it, so I dropped down a level. And my friendship with the great Walter Payton. Neil Stratton: Well. Kevin: Paid off. Again, he was one who really encouraged me to get into coaching because he felt like that's what I was. And he got me an interview at St. Vider High School in Arlington Heights. And was head coach there for five years. His amazing job had a bunch of players that made me look good. and I should go back. This was important. I left out when I was a graduate assistant at Indiana. I I took it upon myself. I did my first draft guide. And this was ninety-two. I traded this was when I became a GA, it was still you know, 18 millimeter film. And then we transitioned to SVHS. So I I traded SVHS tapes with other GAs around the country to get enough tape to look at these guys for the draft. I I did my own. I do my own draft guide. very proud of it. you know, had Brett Favre as top quarterback at Southern Miss and he was not the first draft quarterback drafted. and I can I can prove it. And I and I had a brother who lived in Hoboken. I drove out there, Hoboken, New Jersey, went to the draft, stood in line. Got funny draft story. I actually got into kind of the first floor and passed my draft guide out. Didn't realize that, you know, the jams didn't show up at the draft. you know, I I think I got twenty-five rejection letters from that and seven teams didn't even reply to me. George Young wrote me a really nice note that I still have. it's probably the best rejection lever ever. And so I did that, and my point in telling you that for anybody if they're young listening is that you know it from then on it it took me it took me ten years to get in the league. So the whole time I was still pursuing things when I was coaching, and you know, my fifth year at the high school, Jared Payton, Walter's son, was playing for me. And he committed to Miami and you know, Butch Davis was the head coach and Butch got the Browns job. And you know, they called me and asked me if I wanted to interview and so I went and interviewed Butch and Dwight, the late great Dwight Clark. And I remember, you know, at some point I had shown the book, the the the draft book to to Butch and you know in the interview he's like, Hey, he was telling Dwight about it. He's like, Yeah, Coach Kelly, he like when he was a GA he did this, you know, and I had a copy with me in my bag, so I showed it to Dwight. And you know, they offered me the job then and so that's kinda how I got in, but it was you know, it's not you know, i I I just you know it's it's about the grind. I mean it it it was that it was that that job I took in the middle of the night. and then you know the divid then I took the John Carroll job you know, where I'm coaching like shoot. We must have had thirty linebackers or something. And I got to meet the Bo Poleon and so I worked for the Browns and I worked for the Browns for eight years. I was a Midwest scout. I worked with some great coaches, you know, and I mean Bruce Ahrens was on the first staff, the secondary was coached by Chuck Pogano and Todd Bowles. you know, Terry Rubisky was a receiver coach. I mean, he was a really star. I mean, the the scouting staff was star-studd. West Coast Scout was Thomas Dmitroff, you know, Joe Collins, who'd come from the 49ers, and their Super Bowls was our director of player personnel. So just learned a lot. Learned a lot about scouting the league, doing the Midwest. And Then Phil Savage was a transition. Phil Savage got hired. He he kept me. So one of one of my mentors. just learned a lot from Phil. Grateful for his leadership. I feel like when Phil Savage was was the general manager of the Browns, you know, everything in scouting got better. he'd come from the Ravens and obviously knew some. They built that 2000 Ravens team that won the Super Bowl. And You know, Phil was really an amazing guy to work for. He's a very passionate scout. he's up there with like Bill Poeyan for me, passionate wise and just a lot of respect for the prof great profession. And then there was another transition and you know I I didn't make it through that one, but you know, I got a job I got a job with folks. Neil Stratton: KK, before you go, there's a lot you get us a lot that we want to unpack here. One of them I want to ask you about is there I think there are a lot of people out there that are spouting draft opinions on social media, okay? And they may know the top 32 or top 40 guys or whatever, but you put together a comprehensive book, and I don't know how many pages it was, I don't know how many players you broke down or whatever. But do you feel the fact that you actually put something together and published it and showed that you were Kevin: Yeah. Sure. Neil Stratton: no more than just who Brett Favre and Dan McGuire and whatever was. Do you think that's kind of what endeared you to people because it seemed like you'd gone maybe an extra mile? Kevin: Yeah yeah, yes. w without a doubt. you know, the the the extra miles, it's not a crowded place, right? So yeah, I'm I was telling you about this note I got from George Young. He just was so respectful of the work and they just didn't have any spots and they had the biggest staff in the league and even if he lost somebody, you know, he wasn't he wasn't gonna r didn't plan to replace them. He just felt like I belonged in the league and I mean it's I mean I I mean literally had never met the man, and I felt like he gave me a job with that letter, you know, and just kind of kept me going. because, you know, on every other level of coaching, of course, personnel, recruiting, whatever you want to call it, is part of your job. And, you know, I realized as a coach, that, you know, I I I coached my best when I had better players. I mean, so, Rodrik David: Okay. Yeah. Kevin: You know, I I I mean, I know coaching made me a better scout. but I also know scouting has made me a better coach. you know, so you know, iron does sharpen iron, so Neil Stratton: Now, Kevin, given that you took that leap and obviously was such a career maker for you, do you find that you regard people that have that kind of do the player evaluation as part of the media? Do you have more respect for them because of that? I mean, Roger and I have several of those guys on our podcast all the time. I find them very knowledgeable, but a lot of scouts don't. A lot of them see it strictly as that entertainment. Where do you come down on that? Kevin: No, I I have a lot of respect. I mean, I I just think it's all part of what makes the draft, you know, a great event. that we all have jobs for the National Football League. I have, you know, complete reverence. the you know, when I think of the great Mel Kuyper, I mean that's the way think of him, you know. I mean he he he he The popularity of draft, I mean, the man's been a part of it, you know. So, no, I got a lot of respect. I mean, and you can tell when people do the work. so, you know, I mean, just NFL scouting in general, just have the utmost respect for all the Road Scouts. it's a it's a it's a fairly thankless job, which is really too bad 'cause it it obviously is the lifeblood of any NFL franchise. you know, and Super Bowl teams are built through the draft. And you know, you gotta get on the road to do that. You you know, you can't just sit around a headquarters and and build an NFL team. You have to get on the road and you know, I was you know, it's interesting, you know, the the rules in college football have just changed where I was able to go on the road this spring and here and and You know, if if it was just about football, well then yeah, heck, I just should've could have stayed in my office and watch film, you know. But you know, we get on the road for eight or nine months a year to scout the the person. You know, the person and all those things, his character, his maturity life skills, his football character, his love of the game, his leadership, his mental toughness, his competitiveness, his his injury history, his mental acuity, his process all those things, his coachability You go on the road 'cause you're a private investigator. That's what you are. You're right. And you know, those things are, you know, you know, what's inside here and here, those, you know, your what's what's inside your guts and your heart, those are hard things to scout. but they're critical. Anything in life, you know how bad you want it. I mean, you know, somebody that won't be denied is a powerful person. So, You know, those are the those are the men, those are the the scouts that are doing that work. you know, I always find it it it laughable to me when I hear you know, scouts get caught up in the numbers. you know, it's just people don't know what they're talking about. I mean, scouts reports are, you know, they're locked basically at the end of the football season, you know, but it's j January first. Okay, so those numbers don't even exist, you know, those numbers are at the combine in February. And their pro day numbers and stuff. So and you know, the NFL the clubs locked those reports to protect ours protect ourselves from ourselves, you know, so because those reports are are from the tackle football season. They're from film and practice and and visits and you know, practice and and those types of things and and d you know, I mean everything after the football season outside of the the combine for the inner for the physicals, Neil Stratton: Mm-hmm. Kevin: You know, you gotta be careful 'cause it's it's not tackle football. Rodrik David: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin. So before we're gonna talk some more, we're gonna talk Poleon and Tannenbaum and Telesco, but you talked about that ten year period. You talked about again a long time between again, you're you're getting into it, you're getting out of, you know, your playing days to that first job opportunity. And I don't want to date you, but this was before a simple text message could be sent to stay in touch. And everybody we have on this podcast talks about the networking The relationships, again, being genuine, having developing those relationships. How were you doing that? Not with just again, not just with your players, but again, those people that you were meeting along the way that again were gonna circle back around, whether you knew it or not, to someday give you that opportunity. Kevin: Yeah, it's a great question. I describe it like everybody you have a formal education and you know I have I have an undergraduate degree in econ and I have a sports management master's degree and then there's your informal education that we all control. Okay, and so it's your experiences in life, it's the books you read. You know, back then it's c it I mean there wasn't a clinic I didn't attend. Okay. I mean there wasn't I mean if I could drive, I'm just driving. And it did spring practices. I just made a network. Back then we called it a a Rolodex. You know, that was the thing, like expand your Rolodex. And you know, I have a I have a a book collection that's you know, half of it's here in my office, the other half's in my attic. and it's a book collection of if if if a great coach wrote a book, I have a copy of it. All right. From from ones I had to buy use, like, you know, Woody Hayes' book, You Win With People, you know, to to Ron Wolfe's book, The Packer Way, the you know, Bill Polly's books of course, but all the coaching, Bill Walsh's books, Coach Parcells is my hero, I have all his books, I mean, different sports, you know. And so I I just think it's the people you meet. Arn Sharp and Zion, I said that earlier. you know, I it's just very interesting to me that that you know, I my my my chance meeting with Walter Payton happened at like one in the morning at a twenty four hour health club. And you know, he was there to work and be left alone and and you know I I was just there for the same reason. I n but not to be left alone because Anybody cared about me. I mean, everybody wanted his autograph, you know what I mean? So but we weren't we weren't connected by talent, obviously, you know, and but we were connected by work, and just love of the game and passion for it and stuff. And so I I just think when you when you go the extra mile, like Neil said, okay, you you you just sh show up around the other people doing that. Right. I mean I I you know, my two sons, my three kids really, you know, I explained all that to and and you know, I'm like, it's you gotta expand things. You gotta get out in front of people. Don't don't in this day and age, don't hide behind your phone or or your computer. go see people, go meet them, go work with people. you know, I've told you I have a son on a on a NASCAR team. My other son's a basketball coach and I have a daughter who's in who's in marketing and stuff. And so yeah, I think that's just really important for any young person, you know, whether you're coaching, scouting, at any level, high school, college, the pros, it's it's really to me, it's it's all it's all one big community. And you know, I I've just have a a lifetime of an education in the sport. that was sharpened at those places I that's why I started from the beginning because, you know, I mean, I think of my high school coach, Tony Rasmussen, I mean he was a great football coach, so yeah. Rodrik David: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it all like you said, it all comes back around a a night meeting with Walter Payton, a night job. Again, it's you're working to it's it's w the advice that I know Neil gives, I give to young, aspiring scouts. You if you want to work in football, you gotta work in football. You also have to find a way to pay the bills, which again may means your schedule is not quite exactly what you wanna be. And again, it goes back to John Carroll, you meet Kevin: Yeah. Rodrik David: Chris Polean, which leads to Bill Polling. End up working for Bill. Talk about maybe a unique element. Again, something maybe everybody remembers the four Super Bowls in Buffalo. He finally gets the ring in Indianapolis. What was unique about working for Bill? Kevin: but well, I mean listen, I mean, Bill's got a gold jacket, you know what I mean? So everything he just incredible. I mean, to this day he he lives up in the greater, you know, north of Charlotte and you know, I mean I he's still a mentor, contact for me. you know, I obviously met him back there with John Carroll and then I and then I had the distinct honor to work with him, work for him. on a great scouting staff, you know, with Tom Telesco and Matt Turpining and Todd Visvery and and I mean just just a star studied scouting staff. But Bill, I think I think with Bill it's you know, Bill Bill also has a coaching background. I think that's healthy. I think You know, Bill's passion for scouting is second to none. I was the Midwest Scout and and you know, I'd I'd be going to those max in games on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and you know, Bill would come with me. I mean on a Tuesday. Hey you going you going to Ball State? Would you pick me up? You know, and and you know, there's some camp free agent guys there, but it didn't matter to Bill. the you know, Big Ten championship game we're you know, we're We're doing it together. So, yeah, he's he's just amazing. you know, his his mentorship of scouts, his education, that's this love for the scouting community. You know, Bill, you know, not to get in his whole career, but I mean the guy the man won Grey Cups in in Canada. When I was actually in high school, he was he's at the US F L, he was at the Chicago Blitz. And I was a fan of that team. you know, obviously everything he did with the Buffalo Bills and You know, then the Carolina Panthers, then the Colts. and I think the other thing I I you know, Bill, because of his back coaching background, I think he, you know, it really helped him, you know, choose a head coach. All right. And he really didn't miss on that either. You know, he didn't miss in the first round, he didn't miss with coaches. and then the other thing I I when I was when I was in c sh Cleveland Phil Savage had these really awesome scout schools and he would bring in he would bring in guest speakers and Marv Levy was a speaker w one time and he talked about his relationship with Bill and how they were together and and he gave Bill so much credit. for you know Bill just was like you tell me what you want it to look like and we'll build it for you. But you just be specific about what you want at every position and the traits we're looking for and how they're gonna fit onto the football team and we'll we'll find it for you. All right. And you know, that was the three four defense and that's Cornelius Bennett and the great Bruce Smith and and you know just big seven man front, build a wall. And when you think of his Colts days and his and his you know partnership with the great Tony Dungey and and Jim Caldwell, you know, that's like the other side of the page defensively, right? I mean that's the four three underside speed and and Bill was you know, Bill's like, Yeah, well, we're gonna build it. And he just he just you know he he he just got together with the head coach and the coaching staff and you know he he brought down that kind of the visible wall in the NFL between the coaching staff and the personnel department. because he he knew the it was our only chance to win, you know, in that great league that's set up for eight and eight. So there's just I mean, I could go on and on about with Bill. and he and he made he was we were all a part of everything. you know, the the scouting meeting coaching meetings. I mean he we had a his box in Lucas Oil and then we had a box and it was right next to his and I mean, you know, I I made every home game and, you know, I'd always talk to him. he's just Hall of Famer, as the as best as the league's ever seen to me. So Rodrik David: What about looks like Neil might be having some mic problems. What about what about Mike Tannebaum? What about his time? Kevin: Let me let me go back one second. I w I did tell you this when I was thinking of Lake Forest. I so I and when I was at Lake Forest, the head football coach football coach was Maury Waugh. Okay. And that is Ethan's father. Okay. Ethan Waugh. Maury Waugh, the head football coach, had been at Northwestern when I was in Indiana. so I had some contacts that knew him. And so, you know, I worked for Maury there and And Ethan was in high school playing high school football, you know. And so it's just incredible, you know, the people you meet and then, you know, obviously Ethan and I have been close friends my whole my whole NFL career. But I I just want to get that in there. You know, you just never you take jobs, you never know who you're gonna meet. You know, you just take the job and do a great job where you are and you know, like everyone says, you know, be where your feet are. I just think that's real important. you know, I I just think I I was When I look back now, I just know you know I was making the right impression on people because I had a passion for what I was doing, and you know, I was I was gonna find a way to get it done, and I wasn't gonna be denied. So that people recognize that, you know. so Mike Tannebaum, you asked me about love my time with with Mike, and the Jets. I worked with Rex Ryan was the head football coach. He's as good a defensive coach as I've ever been around. you know, I and and even that, you know, I d just cause I know what this is all about. I mean, I I I got fired from the Colts and you know, I didn't have much left of my contract and and three kids at home. It was very challenging. And so I I had a lot of irons in the fire, you know. One of the great things about NFL scouting is you live in the road and so, you know, you you know your peers and and build relationships. you get to know them more better than you do the people in your own building 'cause you're not in your own building very much. And you know, you you you learn, you worry about each other on the road, you try to take care of guys. I spent time with him. you spent time with him, you know. You see a guy on a Monday, you're probably gonna see him the whole week in the state. And you get to know guys. I mean, a lot of guys lived in the Indianapolis area that had the Midwest. but I didn't I didn't know Mike Tannerbaum. He didn't come from scouting. And so, but I besides all my contacts, I also just, you know, I shotgunned the league to every GM, every college director, every player personnel person, I mean, everybody. And You know, Mike didn't know me and he got my stuff and made a couple calls and he he called me and and you know when he when he called he's just like hey, you know, you come highly recommended, would you come talk to us? I was like, sure. And you know, I was on a flight that night and I and interview with him and and have job you know the next morning. So you know, really that time with the Jets was it it really was It was outstanding. It was a great group of people, a great coaching staff. you know, Mike is one of the smarter NFL people I've been around. you know, his grasp of the salary cap and rosters and roster management was was very impressive to me and I really enjoyed. I was a Midwest scout and I only left because I I got the director's job, college director job with the Chargers. So it it really was a a year. It was a short year. I I actually Mike ended up getting let go. So I worked for John Izik and and we went through the draft and you know, we had two first round picks. We we took Sheldon Richardson with our second first round pick from my area and and you know, he ended up being defensive rookie of year. So I was proud of that. And but a lot of that is really the coaching staff and Rex, you know, the system he was running. We had a lot of high picks on the defensive line. He's incredible football coach. Rodrik David: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you get you definitely get the different mixes again from from Phil Savage to Bill Polian, who did it his way. Mike definitely brought that different perspective. And then you finish your NFL career. You go a number of years with Tom Telesco, you know, kind of full circle on that one. You go from coaching him, you know, to being, you know, working for him. Talk about that time with with with Tom. Kevin: Yeah, it was great. I mean, I Tom was essentially the director. He was kind of the player personnel. We didn't really have a college director with the Colts, and it was really Tom. He wore a lot of hats, but he ran the scouting meet the you know, the college scouting meetings. All the traditional stuff like that I did for the Chargers, he did it for the Colts. So, you know, I I I had worked f I'd worked with him, you know, I knew him well. I knew his style. I I f I feel like, you know, we we were You know, we were very different and that and that's probably what made us, you know, good together. And you know, we it was really a super twelve years. you know, we had we did have three well, four head coaches for me, my time there, you know, not real proud of that, but I'm proud of the fact that we went to the playoffs with all of And anybody that's been a personnel knows that, you know, when you have a turnover with the head coach, a lot of times you're you know, you're gonna have players that don't fit, not as players, whatnot. And so, you know, you're revamping a roster to fit fit a style of defense or offense or whatnot. So, Rodrik David: So hard. Kevin: yeah, and Tom's a a scout, you know, and has a lot of respect for it. He he you know, I I really appreciate how he let me do my job. and he spent a lot of time in the road and then, you know, is a huge part of you know, the whole draft process, all the way to picking the players. So I mean it was it was I'm proud of the team they have there now. a lot of the core players, you know, the Justin Herberts and Derwin James of that team, and and Coach Harbaugh, you know, I was part of helping the Spanos family with that transition. So proud of that team. hoping they do great things. Rodrik David: Yeah, good reason to be. Neil Stratton: Now Kevin, you you mentioned a number of those players. Can you give us I'm gonna run down a few of them that were that you were part of the team when the the player was drafted. Just give us some rec recollections recollections if you could. Joe Thomas out of Wisconsin in two thousand seven with the Browns. Kevin: Yeah, this was great. I mean, this was Phil Savage. you know, it was you know, Joe was a left tackle, obviously, just a great player. We needed, you know, we needed a cornerstone and When I think back, it was really him and Adrian Peterson and and Phil had sent me to the Fiesta Bowl. that was the the Boise State Fiesta Bowl against Oklahoma with the hook and ladder and all that stuff. And and g 'cause I wasn't you know, I wasn't the area scout, but he sent me out there 'cause remember Peterson had busted his collarbone and missed like seven games and that was one game he's coming back and Neil Stratton: wow. yeah. Kevin: You know, I had some ties on the Oklahoma staff, whatnot. So you know, Joe Thomas, I mean, he's Hall of Fame player, just just incredible. you know, we when we drafted him, he was fishing with his dad in the state with I mean he you just can't make it make players up like him. He's you know, just immediate starter, all pro. Every year he was there. Hall of Fame. He's I actually Rodrik David: Yeah. Kevin: When I was with the Chargers we played we played at the Browns. I'm actually looking at a picture of my family at that game. that's here in my office. and it was it was Joe Thomas Day. Joe Thomas bobblehead. He was going in the Ring of Honor in Cleveland Browns Stadium there. and I was I got to be there, but I was working for the the the Chargers at the time. So it's great it was great to be there and see that, but yeah, that was incredible, really. Neil Stratton: Now you mentioned, but I'll let you go out to talk a little bit more about Sheldon Richardson out of Missouri in two thousand thirteen with the Jets. Kevin: Yeah, I mean that you know, I I mean that was John Itsek and and Mike Tonnenbaum. You know, when you go through a a a scout, you know, a football season, people don't understand unless it's it's it's you know, scouting people that are watching this or listening, that you get to the end of the football season, that's really half time for a scout 'cause the drafts at the end of April. You know what I mean? So, you know, you have that transition, but you know, all the work, you know, you're you you have still six months before the draft and And really the big question was Sheldon. He was kind of a classic three technique explosive get up the field. And we were a three-four team at the time and and had a decorated kind of first round defensive line. And there was some, you know, there was some debate about, you know, whether Sheldon fit. So some guys had lower grades, and it was really about that. You know, I had, you know, a high first round grade on a guy and and I just remember I just remember Rex Ryan You know, when John you know directly asked him in the draft meeting, you know, hey, hey, it's a good question. Like if we draft this guy, you know, where's he gonna play? Who you know, who's he beating out? Like, how's this gonna work? And and Rex was like, Look, I mean, I seen the guy, I mean, draft him, okay, and we'll run a four three. Okay. I mean, he's going in he's going in the game. And that's what happened. I mean, that's just you know, that's the greatness of Rex Ryan was that you get him a good player, he'll make it work. you know. He just couldn't have enough great players in his system. It wasn't it wasn't, you know, some systems on defense are rigid. You know, Rex is a a genius defensive coach. So, you know, the three four, the four three, the forty-six, his dad's defense. I mean, it I mean, he knew them all. He could play all. you know, head up, gap defense. I mean, it He knew it all. I mean the guy so so, you know, developing players, he was a players coach. I just have a lot of ad admiration for him. He had a lot of respect for the scouting process. He sat through all the meetings. That's not always the case in the league. So yeah, that was a fun that was really a fun draft. Neil Stratton: Joey Bosa out of Ohio State in two thousand sixteen with the Chargers, Kevin. Kevin: Yeah, I mean we had a third pick and that that was easy. we felt like, you know, the quarterbacks were going in front of us in the first two picks. We had the great Phillip Rivers. you know, the those years of When I f when I got there, you know, Rivers was in his prime. I mean, guys, an amazing pro, Hall of Fame player. probably a Hall of Fame coach. I mean, he's really he's really a rare, rare person, rare player. And it was we were looking for the air apparent, but we were also trying to win the Super Bowl. So, you know, we I remember the first year we drafted Jason Verett, and then and We drafted Bosa and we drafted Mike Williams and and we and we drafted Derwin James and it was like we were s doing a full scouting calendar on the quarterbacks, but then just deciding that, hey man, Rivers is still playing at a Rivers level, so like let's try to just keep loading it up. And Bosa you know, I I guess there was a little bit of debate on, you know, Joey is a big physical guy, not not a fast forty yard dash. didn't give us any pause. I mean, he was a great player, he had great production, he's tough, he's versatile. I mean, it doesn't matter where your defense is, doesn't matter where you play him. I don't know, I think he's gonna ending his NFL career here with seventy-seven sacks or something. I mean the Bosa family, his dad played there. That was interesting to scout, but great player, great guy, just a stalwart, you know, just another pillar on a on a NFL team. that was an easy Yeah, that w this was different. You know, this was in the middle of the round. what I remember about that is I remember I remember Derwin James interview at the Combine. Neil Stratton: Derwin James out of Florida State in 2018 again with the Chargers. Kevin: you know, his his last year at Florida State was when Jimbo Fisher took the Texan job. they didn't they had sort of a year like we had last year at Clemson where, you know, the the co coach Bowden's ball record was in jeopardy. if I remember they played Bama and they had a freshman quarterback and they got beat and I think the quarterback got hurt. And so they had a tough season and when we asked when I asked Derwin about that at the combine he he didn't throw anybody under the bus. He you know, a answered it like a great coach. he said he had, you know, some player only meetings and he's like, This bowl streak's not gonna get it's not gonna get broken on our watch. we're gonna s we're gonna stay together. And we're gonna get this thing to a bowl, which they did. just kinda like and I just think, you know, his his leadership in that, you know, I mean it's a it's a whatever, a twenty minute interview, but I would only interview him with the with the background stuff and then turn him over to the coaches. So I had him for four or five minutes. it was an incredible interview. I mean the guys the guys everybody knows Derwin James now. His his infectious leadership is as good as I've ever been around. incredible player. You know, he's just one of these versatile chess pieces. you know, we drafted him. We knew we had to we had to try to find a way to check Travis Kelsey twice a year. And that's virtually impossible. And all the other kind of tight ends like that that are big receivers that are just really difficult matchups in the NFL. but yeah, he's he's a great one. Yeah. Yeah. Rodrik David: Good answer to that. Neil Stratton: And then the last one is Justin Herbert out of Oregon in twenty twenty. Kevin: Yeah, so you know, that was the COVID draft. This one's really interesting. nineteen the year earlier, again, I told you we were looking for the air parent to the great Phillip Rivers. And we th you know, Justin was eligible for the draft, so we we had fully scouted him and he was our top quarterback coming out of the the the nineteen scouting season. I think we had him and then Daniel Jones was next. And and so really he he really didn't move after that. I remember seeing him play live in the Cowboys stadium at ATT against Auburn and Bo Nicks was the starting freshman quarterback at Auburn. And you know, Justin was just incredible. I mean, you know, he's he's two easy to scout, he's six six, he's two forty, ran four six flat. He's he stayed for his senior year to lead his team to the Pac-Twelve Championship. He got that done. He was the MVP of that game. He stayed you know, go to the Rose Bowl, he's the MVP of that game. He stayed to play in the senior bowl, he's the MVP of that game. And he stayed to, you know, throw at the combine and he threw it the combine. So You know, his interview was was excellent. I remember asking him like, Hey, I don't have much on you, but you know, word is you're you don't have enough juice or whatever and you know his he's he showed his leadership in that interview and yeah, he's he's a great one. we were lucky to he was available really. Neil Stratton: So KK, what I remember last year at the symposium, you I I believe you made the statement that from the end of the season until the draft, the most important work you do as a scout is determining injury history and determining medicals and fits for being able to hold up in an NFL season. How do you do that in the transfer portal when it's moving so quickly and there's so much less information and and the ability to just really kind of invest time in in investigating players in their medical history. Kevin: Yeah, it's hard. It's very challenging. And and I and it we're just talking about Herbert. You know, that was the COVID draft. So, you know, we had if you remember back then we we had the combine, if I remember, the pro days had just gotten started and then the shutdown happened around the country. So we we didn't have the medical recheck in Indy at the combine. So, you know, Tua had the dislocated hip, remember? And and then I want to say it was like four other surgeries or something. So, you know, without that kind of information, I mean, you know, the heard Coach Parcells a long time ago say, you know, the NFL is a heavyweight fight. It's not a well-trained fight. And Coach Parcells is right about that, like basically everything he's ever said. So You know, you gotta have you gotta have durable players. It's a long season. players that are hurt in college are are typically hurt in the pros. It's it's a longer season and it's the highest level of football in the world. this the collisions are spectacular. And you can't have you know, the teams are small, they're fifty players. You you just can't have you gotta have tough minded guys. Nobody's a hundred percent when you're in training camp, let alone when the season starts. So you gotta have tough guys that play through things that that are big, durable players. And that have been durable and have, you know, started games. so to answer your question, I mean, here, you know, w it it it's it's it's evolving, honestly. you know, injury history just wasn't something I think colleges had to get much into because every player got the same thing, twenty five scholarships, eighty-five rides. You know, you I mean, let's be real, you can make mistakes, okay? 'cause they're all getting a scholarship. Those days are long gone. the investments are way bigger and you know, the mistakes the mistakes are more costly. So all of this, you know, all of scouting is about mitigat mitigating your risks. Always looked at, you know, NFL scouting costs is like insurance for an owner. you know, you're you're really kind of a broker just in and you're you know, you're just researching things and it's the players and Yeah, you know, that's why the Combine started, you know, was to is to you know, the owners were flying the players to the thirty two cities. and they're smart businessmen. So, you know, they're like, Hey, why don't we bring all the players together and get these physicals done and and we'll just fly there. That's how they started the combine, then then it morphed into the interviews, which is a great thing. because you know, you don't talk to players when you're y visiting in the fall. and now it's turned into these workouts and this primetime media event, which is great for the league, but, you know, it was started for the physicals. Rodrik David: Yeah. Yeah, no question. Well, Kevin, you spent a lot of time on the road as an area scout. You moved all the way up to director. You were training scouts. You get to be on the other side of it now, sitting there at Clemson talking to NFL scouts. We have a good scouts audience that listen. What advice for scouts are you giving? Hey, you're coming into Clemson, be this kind of guy. Again, the guys you probably trained there with the Chargers, with the Colts, wherever you were at. Neil Stratton: Sure. Rodrik David: Don't be this guy. Don't be this scout. We've both sat in there. We know who they are on the road. It's like, it's gonna be a long day because we got so and so with us. What what are some of the practice best practice habits you're talking to scouts and telling them like, hey, the if if you wanna if you wanna get the info at Clemson, make sure you're doing this. Kevin: Yeah, it's a great question. and I just learned this through my career. I'd say, you know, the great Jeff Shiver, the Bears. you know, I was a GA at Indiana when I met Jeff Shiver. Okay. And I mean, I'm from Chicago. I knew the great Walter Payton. I mean I mean, you think you think it meant a lot to when Jeff Shiver showed up? You're right. And Neil Stratton: well. Kevin: When I got to scout with him early in my career, you know, when I started, it was like you just go, go, go. Okay. You just gotta get the information. All right. And what I learned being around the veteran scouts, you know, like Jeff, and many others, was that don't be in a hurry. You know, that's just really important, okay? And give people time and Spend time in and there's a different culture in every football building. And so, you know, one of the challenges, there's lots of challenges of being an NFL college scout. One of them is you're a guest every day. And you know, so you you know, where to park your car, you know, you can't get in the building because your fingerprint doesn't work anywhere. You get stuck in buildings when you go to use the restroom and stuff. And and I just feel like, you know, trying to understand a building and the culture there. and how they work at every place, and who key people are. I I just think that that's really important. Try to immerse yourself in the program. and you know, we most colleges try to take care of players, but you know, there's or scouts, I mean, but you know, all of this paranoia around the country during my career with restrictions. I mean, I I I I just think it's nonsense. you know, you know, the the I I I find it very interesting that the two best programs during my twenty plus years in the league were when Pete Carroll was at USC dominating in the nineties and when of course Nick Saban was dominating in Alabama. I mean, those were those were the two best visits in the country. You know, you could go to those two schools anytime during the year, any game week, any day, talk to everybody, including the head football coach. they gave you injury history, they whatever you want to talk to, whatever you needed. So if there was any competitive advantage in not having scouts around, you don't think Nick Saban and Pete Carroll would have taken advantage of that. Of course they would have. Okay. So yeah, I just think it's about making contacts, making friends, you know, helping people. you know, whatever you can do in a certain building, I you know. c open communication, you know, come visit. all the above, really. I mean, it's a very challenging time. And that's what I say. I think, you know, the scouting community, you know, I just have so much respect for all the guys on the road. they're all dear friends of mine. I I've really enjoyed this side of it because you see what the other NFL teams are doing, all thirty-two of them, you know. And how they handle How many times they come here in the fall, how they handle, you know, a follow-up in early in January before the combine. And then how they handle the pro day, how they handle private workouts, how they handle 30 visits, how they handle all the Zoom calls and stuff. That that's been that's been fascinating to me. You know, we we had a a really great draft class. We had nine guys get drafted. So yeah, I've really enjoyed that. So it's been great. Just and I've been able Neil Stratton: Well, it has been a great hour hour, KK. We sure appreciate you joining us. If you're listening, if you've been sharing this last hour with us, I think you've learned the it's been reinforced the value of relationships and how critical they are to the nature of growing in this business. If you still aren't sold and you're more of a social media guy, you're out of luck. Kevin's not real active on social media. However, if you if you're like Roderick and me and Kevin, you'll be in Nashville and Two plus weeks and you might have a chance if you're really lucky to to corner Kevin and ask a few questions about his career and how you can have one very similar to his. Kevin, we can't thank you enough so much for being here. We appreciate you. Appreciate your friendship all these years, but buddy. best of luck to Clinton this this year and safe travels to Nashville, buddy. Kevin: Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for having me on, Neil. I mean, just appreciate everything you do for scouting inside the leagues. Amazing. has been of all the respect for everything you're doing. You're growing, you're growing the profession, you're growing the league. just keep doing your thing, man. Any anybody needs something from me, contact you know, find me at Clemson. be happy to help. Neil Stratton: Appreciate you, brother.