Latest / All Bodies. All Foods. / 16. Psychowhat? All About Psychodrama in Eating Disorder Treatment with Nancy Willis MSW, LSW & Certified Practitioner in Psychodrama

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16. Psychowhat? All About Psychodrama in Eating Disorder Treatment with Nancy Willis MSW, LSW & Certified Practitioner in Psychodrama · All Bodies. All Foods.

0:01
Hey,
0:01
I'm Sam.
0:02
Hi,
0:02
I'm Ashley.
0:04
And you're listening to All Bodies All Foods presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.
0:09
We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.
0:19
We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome.
0:23
We would love for you to join us on this journey.
0:26
Let's learn together.
0:28
Welcome back to another episode of All Bodies All Foods.
0:31
I'm Sam and I'm here with my co-host Ashley and we have a very exciting guest today.
0:40
Nancy Willis is a licensed social worker,
0:43
MS W L S W and a certified practitioner in Psychodrama by the American Board of Examiners in Psychodrama Socio and Group psychotherapy.
0:53
Nancy also has experience in residential settings,
0:56
treating substance use,
0:58
compulsive sexual disorders and trauma.
1:01
She also provides a verbal psychotherapy for an independent outpatient practice.
1:06
Hello,
1:07
Nancy.
1:08
Hello.
1:09
Hello.
1:10
You know Ashley Nancy and I worked together for a long time at the residential setting in Philadelphia.
1:19
That's where I met Nancy.
1:21
And I remember as part of my orientation,
1:23
I had to go around and watch different groups,
1:26
like,
1:26
back when I was a wee little,
1:29
you know,
1:30
um,
1:30
dog baby resident and I had to go around and I went to see Nancy's psycho drama.
1:38
And I'm thinking,
1:39
what is this?
1:41
I have never seen anything like this.
1:43
I heard a professor in grad school say psycho drama one time.
1:48
That was the only time I ever heard of it.
1:51
And a professor mentioned it to me.
1:55
They said,
1:55
oh,
1:56
you,
1:56
you were an actress in high school,
1:58
right?
1:59
You would maybe like psycho drama,
2:01
maybe you should think about doing that.
2:02
And I was like,
2:03
I don't know what that is,
2:04
but I was so happy to be able to watch your psycho drama,
2:09
Nancy because it was one of the most powerful events I had seen unfold in front of my eyes.
2:18
So I'm,
2:19
I'm so glad you're on this podcast today because I know there are many folks out there wondering what is psycho drama?
2:26
Just like I was wondering and not only that,
2:31
but you know,
2:32
just,
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you know,
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how does it help?
2:35
We,
2:35
we wanna sort of like dive into like,
2:36
what is the magic of psycho drama but also learn more about you because I know so many um you know,
2:44
past alums from Renfrew have gone through a psycho drama and it's been so transformative for them as part of our programming.
2:55
We ask our patients like,
2:56
OK,
2:57
what are we doing?
2:58
Right?
2:58
What needs improvement as part of our,
3:01
you know,
3:01
we,
3:01
we wanna make sure we're doing things well and this group consistently comes back as one of the favorites like Ashley.
3:10
I would like,
3:10
read through the,
3:11
the vowels and it's like Nancy change my life,
3:14
psycho drama,
3:15
changed my life.
3:16
And,
3:17
um,
3:17
and I would always tell Nancy,
3:18
I'm like,
3:19
Nancy,
3:20
we got good feedback for you again.
3:21
Wait till you're here.
3:23
Um,
3:24
so,
3:24
anyway,
3:25
but,
3:26
you know,
3:26
I think I,
3:27
well,
3:27
I personally would love to hear a little more about you,
3:30
Nancy as a therapist.
3:31
And what got you interested in the mental health field and what got you interested in psycho drama?
3:39
Thank you.
3:40
Thank you for having me.
3:42
And um I uh didn't know what I wanted to do when I first went to college.
3:49
I think I was a political science major because my stepmother was a lawyer and uh actually a friend of mine,
3:58
I had a drug induced psychotic break.
4:01
My friend Beth,
4:02
this was many years ago,
4:04
but visiting her in a psychiatric inpatient hospital really did make me interested in mental health.
4:12
And uh I was interested in mental health and also in acting.
4:19
I was in high school and college places and those were my uh two interests.
4:25
And I think I read one sentence about psycho drama in undergraduate.
4:31
So I think the more the word can get out about psycho drama existing,
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the,
4:36
the better I'm glad I can help in that endeavor.
4:40
So I was working at a mental health center and doing intake emergency just seeing people once.
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And I wanted more of an ongoing relationship with people.
4:51
And there was an opening for a creative arts therapist upstairs in the partial hospital.
4:56
And I thought I remember something about psycho drama.
5:00
Let me see if I can get training as if I could be trained in time for next week when they were filling the job.
5:07
But the very first psycho drama workshop I went to,
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it felt so powerful to me and so moving that I felt I'm home.
5:18
This is my tribe.
5:20
I have to learn more about this.
5:22
So yeah,
5:23
it combined my two interests of being in,
5:28
in,
5:28
in therapy and in my interest in,
5:30
in theater.
5:32
So it was a perfect fit for me.
5:35
That's amazing.
5:36
That is incredible.
5:38
Yeah,
5:38
it's,
5:38
and I'm thinking of,
5:40
of my even experience,
5:42
you know,
5:42
going through grad school,
5:43
I didn't hear anything about psycho drama.
5:46
It's so wonderful to talk to you today,
5:48
Nancy.
5:49
I think people hear about art therapy that uses art or music therapy that uses music.
5:54
So psycho drama and drama therapy that use action,
5:57
which speaking of it doesn't do the drama uh full service to be on a podcast,
6:04
talking about it.
6:06
The whole point is in action.
6:08
So one can't fully understand what it's like.
6:13
Uh just talking about it.
6:15
It's the opposite of what psycho drama is all about because the whole thing of why it can be so powerful is that when we talk,
6:22
we can stay up in our heads.
6:24
But moving into action is the mind body connection when feelings might be more palpable.
6:30
So I'll do my best to talk about psycho drama.
6:33
But yeah,
6:35
it's uh it's more understandable seeing it.
6:39
So that's why I,
6:40
right.
6:41
We're being in one,
6:42
being in one.
6:43
Certainly.
6:43
So this will just be sort of an introductory episode to psycho drama.
6:48
Hopefully will pique some interest out there and maybe someone will try it or maybe you get trained in it to be from a psycho dramatist.
6:58
Yeah.
6:59
So,
7:00
exactly.
7:02
So,
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um,
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well,
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Nancy,
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did you were,
7:05
have you ever been like a part of a psycho drama as part of your training?
7:09
Did they make you go into one at any point?
7:12
Of,
7:12
of course,
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they just,
7:13
the training is just practicing on each other.
7:17
Absolutely.
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Sama was conceived by Jacob Moreno,
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a Viennese psychiatrist in the 1920s and it's guided dramatic action to explore problems and issues.
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So it's,
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it's if someone,
7:35
the,
7:35
the person who it's from their life is called the protagonist in psycho trauma.
7:40
Um,
7:40
it,
7:41
we guide them to put into action,
7:44
whatever issues on their mind,
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it could be something bothering them,
7:47
something they're working on a treatment could be something they need to address to maintain their recovery from the eating disorder.
7:54
And because it explores their feelings,
7:57
it gets new insights,
7:59
it practices new behaviors.
8:00
So it really combines the thoughts,
8:03
feelings and actions,
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which is very renfrew united even political congruent.
8:10
And um so yeah,
8:11
so the protagonist and then the people playing roles were called auxiliaries,
8:15
auxiliary egos and the people witnessing in psycho drama are called the audience.
8:20
The place of action is called the stage.
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The therapist is called the director.
8:25
So uh it's um you know,
8:29
it's,
8:29
it's like it,
8:30
it's the,
8:31
the protagonist is in charge,
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like it's very respectful.
8:35
Um whatever I suggest,
8:37
they can decline,
8:39
they can alter change or accept and it's very spontaneously coc created as we go.
8:46
And so um yes,
8:47
the um the experience of being in psycho dramas as the protagonist,
8:53
the director,
8:54
the auxiliary,
8:54
the audience is all part of the training.
8:58
I see you're talking about like even the,
9:01
so say,
9:02
well,
9:03
you do this for groups at Renfrew um in,
9:07
in the different places you work to.
9:09
So the people that are in the group that aren't necessarily engaging at all,
9:14
they're still a part of the activity,
9:18
the process.
9:19
Absolutely.
9:20
When you're actually witnessing,
9:22
it can make even more of an impact because your defenses are down and someone playing a role or even the protagonist may be focusing on something or their concentration might be on what,
9:34
what a role.
9:35
And so watching something can really um you know,
9:38
leave an impact on you.
9:40
Yeah.
9:41
Right.
9:42
Especially if the protagonist is working through something that you're working through and with eating disorders.
9:49
I mean,
9:50
so many of the issues are the same,
9:52
although everyone usually thinks they're the only one who feels that way.
9:55
Um,
9:56
but to watch a protagonist work through something in the back of your mind.
9:59
You're thinking,
10:00
I think these things too.
10:02
I have this conflict.
10:04
I could see how that would be really powerful.
10:07
In fact,
10:07
there's psycho dramatic techniques like mirroring where someone steps back and someone steps in and does what they were doing to get that.
10:17
Aha.
10:18
This is what I looked like so that they can um you know,
10:22
sort of restart their course or do something differently.
10:26
There's something called doubling where you can stand behind someone as if you were them and add a line,
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maybe something they're feeling inside that they're not saying.
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So there's audience participation because anyone can double anyone.
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And if the protagonist is doubled,
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everything stops until they correct it or repeat it or make it their own somehow,
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but doubling any other auxiliary ego,
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it just becomes part of the action.
10:50
So people really can get involved from any position.
10:53
Wow.
10:55
And there's so much choice it sounds like too,
10:58
you know.
10:59
Well,
10:59
the protagonist has choice around what direction they want things to go and then the audience members can choose to sit and watch or they can choose to just get up and add a line.
11:11
So it seems really trauma informed because there's so much choice within the process.
11:19
Would you agree with that,
11:21
Nancy?
11:21
A absolutely.
11:23
And the protagonist asks people to play roles for them because part of recovery is asking for help making choices.
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But I always tell group members,
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if you feel a role would be traumatic for you,
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please take care of yourselves in decline and the protagonist will pick someone else.
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But don't say no because you think,
11:45
oh,
11:45
I don't know how or I won't be good because there's no standard to live up to and will help you.
11:52
And just that it's in a safe supportive um setting.
11:57
Spontaneity is used a lot and spontaneity is a therapeutic factor.
12:03
I mean,
12:03
eating disorders,
12:04
addictions are very rigid.
12:06
You're doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
12:09
So just moving into action is,
12:13
is healthy spontaneity,
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I can respond to all things in a new way or new things in an adaptive way.
12:21
So when you practice new or effective roles or behaviors in a safe supportive place,
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it can be very healing and particularly we,
12:31
we don't go into specifics of trauma and in groups that ran through,
12:37
uh people can do specifics in individual sessions or trauma track,
12:43
but people can still look at the impact of trauma and also sometimes they don't tip toe around things,
12:50
things will come up.
12:51
The purpose isn't to,
12:53
to trigger people.
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But basically that that might be the issue of why they're here.
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So if that something comes up watching or being in a psycho trauma,
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you're in residential treatment right here.
13:05
There's counselors and therapists to talk to.
13:07
And this may be a very helpful,
13:09
useful thing,
13:10
even though it's painful in the short run,
13:13
just surviving that discomfort and talking about it instead of using a symptom can be really helpful.
13:19
Right.
13:20
So it's also building tolerance to emotions to distress all at once.
13:26
I'm curious,
13:27
Nancy,
13:27
after somebody kind of has that breakthrough experience towards maybe perhaps the end of the group,
13:33
is that something you all process together or?
13:36
Um do they kind of how do,
13:39
do they,
13:39
how do they believe the group experience?
13:43
Sema uh has three parts,
13:45
the warm up,
13:47
the action and the sharing.
13:49
So maybe I'll start talking about the warm up because that's very important that someone comes who emerges as the protagonist is ready to work.
14:00
They're almost making a contract of this is what I want to work on.
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And um if someone isn't warmed up or if the group isn't warmed up to being supportive of that,
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you don't want that.
14:13
So,
14:13
I mean,
14:13
like in life,
14:14
warm ups are important,
14:15
right?
14:16
I'm gonna stretch before I jog.
14:18
Well,
14:18
I'm not gonna jog but someone might,
14:20
I'm gonna,
14:22
I'm gonna write down notes before I do a talk.
14:25
So,
14:26
so adequately warming up to something in life is important.
14:30
So there's a very important psycho drama,
14:32
warm up So someone may um know ahead of time that they wanna work and let me know here that's fine.
14:39
Their therapist might let me know they wanna work or,
14:42
or it would be helpful if they did some work.
14:45
But there's warmup exercises such as,
14:48
as,
14:48
from,
14:49
from,
14:50
as simple as everyone's saying,
14:52
uh someone they admire or a book they like or if you got a tattoo,
14:57
what would it be of,
14:58
or there's um what's the strength of yours?
15:01
That is,
15:02
is one of your resources.
15:03
So there's also warmup exercises.
15:06
You could do a two chair.
15:08
One,
15:08
be someone who supports your recovery and then be someone who doesn't understand eating disorder and recovery be be you in the future.
15:19
If you're in recovery,
15:20
be you in the future.
15:21
If you've relapsed to do a uh a food atom,
15:26
it's like a social atom is significant people,
15:29
positive and negative.
15:30
The food atom is significant foods positive or negative and draw them or,
15:35
or sculpt them so that they're near or far and you reverse roles so that the pro auxiliary can learn how to be true to your version of the role.
15:45
As you see it,
15:46
the action would be protagonist censored and um just the messages that come through from different foods can for example,
15:56
or from different people can lead to like you work from the periphery to the core underlying issues and then sort of end back at the the periphery of like how does this,
16:08
um,
16:08
adjust till today?
16:09
So there's all kinds of,
16:11
of warm ups and,
16:13
um,
16:14
well,
16:14
maybe I can just like,
16:15
sort of talk about a pretend psycho drama.
16:20
Yeah,
16:20
that would be great.
16:22
Get our imagination going and then I will get,
16:24
I,
16:24
I do remember you wanted to know about the d rolling and the,
16:28
and the sharing and processing but,
16:30
and,
16:31
and I'm,
16:32
I'm,
16:32
I'm sort of making this up So all a resemblance to real or fictional characters is purely coincidental.
16:39
So say the person wants to work on being bullied at a younger age.
16:47
That's a big one with eating disorders.
16:49
It,
16:49
it,
16:49
it really is.
16:51
And you get um first of all,
16:54
I want them to have strengths and supports before they go in to do that work of bringing up painful feelings.
17:00
So there's three categories of supports.
17:03
One is an intrapersonal strength,
17:06
like your determination,
17:07
your resiliency,
17:09
pick someone to play that role.
17:11
Uh It could be like a passion for something,
17:16
theater,
17:17
music,
17:18
athletics,
17:19
uh Something inside another one is um an external support,
17:25
like a person,
17:26
a friend,
17:27
a partner,
17:28
a therapist and all these things you role reverse with.
17:32
So I'm interviewing the protagonist in the role,
17:36
partly so the auxiliary knows how to play it when I switch them back.
17:39
But partly for the protagonist to have that experience of owning their strengths and seeing how it supportive person perceives them.
17:47
You take that with you when you come back to the role,
17:50
I particularly like having therapists as their supports because when they play their therapist,
17:55
I can pick their brain for information.
17:57
They'll tell me about their dynamics,
17:59
their strengths,
18:00
their resources.
18:02
For some reason,
18:03
it's easier when you're meeting someone else to say great things about yourself and to express the understanding.
18:09
Um And then the a third source of support is something more transcendent.
18:15
It could be a higher power,
18:17
it could be nature love,
18:19
it,
18:20
it could be your dog.
18:22
You know,
18:22
anything that is,
18:24
is gonna be a voice of grounded and ok,
18:29
even when you're not feeling comfortable,
18:33
you're grounded,
18:34
you're supported,
18:35
you're OK.
18:36
So just anything can be used is these supports.
18:40
Like if someone has a stuffed animal who can play your stuffed animal,
18:43
if someone has a,
18:44
a tattoo like a,
18:46
a Harry Potter tattoo,
18:47
who's your favorite character?
18:49
Ok,
18:49
let's bring her Mindy in here because they will give voice to that support in their role reversal.
18:55
So say we give someone who's uh wanting to work on their feelings of low self esteem that they internalized from bullying and we give them the support and then they might do a scene when they were the age of when they were bullied for you 11.
19:14
You know,
19:14
ask someone to be you when you were 11 and who could play the bullies.
19:19
And again,
19:20
a person may decline the role,
19:23
but it can,
19:25
it's useful and helpful for the protagonist if you play a so-called negative role,
19:30
but a person can also get a lot of insights playing a negative role like that.
19:35
That was horrible.
19:36
I hated saying that it wasn't true when people said it to me or it's not appropriate for me to say that to myself.
19:43
So I i it all can be useful and helpful.
19:46
So if they feel safe and comfortable,
19:49
I might have them go back to be 11 years old and we act the scene out in the here and now present tense just makes feelings more accessible.
19:58
So you are 11.
20:00
If they begin to feel shaky or dissociated,
20:03
come back to your current age.
20:05
The last thing we wanna do is re traumatize anyone.
20:08
But again,
20:09
you're in a safe supportive place and if you survive that you can survive reliving it with help and with gaining understanding and distance and trying new behaviors.
20:22
And i it at the time,
20:24
if they're being bullied and then the low self-esteem voice comes in,
20:28
yeah,
20:28
you're,
20:29
you're,
20:29
you're no good.
20:30
You don't look right.
20:32
And then is this is when your eating disorder developed great,
20:36
pick someone to play the role of the eating disorder.
20:39
And it's just really helpful because the eating disorder served a function.
20:44
It,
20:44
it gave you a sense of control it.
20:48
Um It was a way to express feelings.
20:51
It was something that you had just of your own.
20:54
It made you numb your painful feelings.
20:57
And also putting the eating disorder in a chair reinforces that this was a coping skill that you weren't born with.
21:06
It.
21:06
It was,
21:07
it can be unlearned.
21:08
You are not your eating disorder.
21:10
It's,
21:10
it's in that chair over there.
21:12
It separates.
21:13
Yeah.
21:14
And it's also awful to have the eating disorder there because if we're bringing up painful feelings in the past,
21:21
this is what you would have used.
21:23
So we really want to emphasize that you're doing something differently right there right now.
21:28
And that's why it gets its own chair.
21:30
So as the,
21:32
the bullies are talking to the,
21:34
the 11 year old and the eating disorder and the inner voice says,
21:39
yeah,
21:39
you're no good.
21:40
And the eating disorder says I can get you liked,
21:42
I can make you feel good.
21:45
Um Then the adult protagonist,
21:49
uh the 11 year old says,
21:51
I,
21:51
I feel awful.
21:52
I,
21:52
I just feel terrible.
21:54
Maybe I am no good.
21:55
So then you can have the person be the adult again and the person playing the 11 year old go back into that chair and we can have,
22:04
have a course of all these voices.
22:06
So it really hits them powerfully like,
22:09
oh my God,
22:09
I was taught this and no wonder I've learned to feel that way.
22:14
Given those circumstances,
22:16
it wasn't my fault.
22:18
I'm not gonna beat myself up even for developing the maladaptive coping skills that I did.
22:24
It was the best I could do at the time.
22:27
It was kind of clever to think of some way to cope and self soothe.
22:32
And I can have compassion for myself and self understanding.
22:35
Here's 11 year old me and so I can,
22:40
I can go rescue that 11 year old,
22:42
like literally go get them and bring them to you and give them comfort and tell them you were always good enough.
22:50
You didn't deserve that.
22:52
That's not true.
22:54
And then the protagonist can speak up to the bullies.
22:57
How dare you?
22:58
I never deserve that.
22:59
I'm not gonna let how you made me feel affect how I behave today anymore.
23:06
And so they might say to their low self-esteem like I'm gonna make friends with these painful feelings,
23:13
they'll pop up,
23:14
but I can remind myself that they're not sure.
23:17
And all the good things about me and the three categories of supports are still saying the good and the whole group can be.
23:25
Of course anyone else in the room want to say anything to the bullies and then we get the and the goa aways and I stand up.
23:32
Then you want your eating disorder like that.
23:38
Thank you for your service and you're not helping anymore.
23:44
I have other ways to help myself or you're creating more problems than you helped.
23:50
So,
23:50
so goodbye today and then the you know,
23:54
the drama might end with them again,
23:56
giving themselves that reinforcement and reversing role as your inner child hear that from your adult self and reverse back again and thank your supports and strengths and that might be the end of the drama.
24:10
So sharing it and then comes chills.
24:16
I can do this every day.
24:18
I need psycho drama every day.
24:20
Yes.
24:21
You know,
24:21
I'm thinking of this like 11 year old talking to the inner strength or talking to,
24:30
you know,
24:30
those three,
24:31
what were the three supports Nancy,
24:33
the inner and then like,
24:35
and yeah,
24:36
I'm like,
24:37
thinking of this little 11 year old connecting with those in front of everyone and I'm like goose bumps right now.
24:44
I'm like,
24:45
oh my gosh,
24:47
I'm glad.
24:48
So there is the warm up,
24:49
there's the action and then there's sharing,
24:52
this is very important.
24:53
The people who were in the roles can say like,
24:57
I'm married,
24:57
I'm not your bully and what it felt like playing that role.
25:03
Oh I didn't like saying those things that went so against my nature.
25:07
That's a,
25:08
it's sharing our eyes,
25:09
eye statements.
25:10
You're talking about yourself because the protagonist can do no wrong.
25:14
A compliment is a good judgment,
25:16
but it's still a judgment.
25:18
You,
25:18
the protagonist has been open and vulnerable and you want them to feel safe like they're not gonna be evaluated or judged.
25:24
It keeps it safer for future protagonists to know that they're not gonna be evaluated or judged.
25:29
Whatever happens is fine.
25:31
So by sharing eye statements,
25:33
this is what I felt inside when I was in a role and then what it brought up from my own life,
25:40
even if the circumstances were different,
25:43
I could relate to feeling powerless,
25:45
I could relate to feeling unsupported.
25:47
So by sharing,
25:49
it helps people get out of the roles.
25:52
And the protagonist is like in the,
25:55
in the recovery room,
25:56
they're not talking,
25:57
they've worked hard.
25:58
It's their time to rest,
26:00
they're listening.
26:01
Now the group is saying what came up for them and that,
26:05
that's very important because then that gives you an idea of what you want to work on in action or what you're gonna um talk with your therapist about.
26:12
So,
26:13
so de rolling and sharing and knowing that there's people here to talk to is very important.
26:21
Wow,
26:21
it's like,
26:22
it's like a month of therapy in,
26:24
in an hour.
26:26
Like let's take a bite of your eating disorder.
26:28
Let's confront your bullies.
26:30
Let's strengthen your,
26:31
you know,
26:32
recovery voice and then 45 minutes later we're done.
26:35
And also let's maybe build some community in there though,
26:39
some compassion and empathy for you too,
26:41
you know.
26:42
Right.
26:42
Like,
26:42
let me share my deepest conflicts with the people in my program and bond with them.
26:49
Wow.
26:50
A lot of people um bring family issues,
26:53
by the way,
26:54
family issues are really got.
26:57
It's our first most significant group where we learn what it's OK to express how we should be.
27:04
So,
27:05
like a lot of the psycho dramas are about family.
27:08
I'm sure,
27:09
I'm sure Nancy.
27:11
Do you ever do like a psycho drama with a fam with actually with the family?
27:18
Um It was,
27:19
it's interesting because when you're playing your mother,
27:24
it's your projections.
27:25
When you have the actual mother there,
27:27
you're actually that's family.
27:31
But I have used uh psycho drama techniques with families like the,
27:35
the mirroring the doubling the role reversal and then correcting an accurate role reversal.
27:42
But there used to be in person Family Day.
27:44
I know since the pandemic Family Day is on Zoom.
27:48
But when it was impersonal again,
27:50
I'm not violating hip hop,
27:52
I'm sort of making this up.
27:53
Um But say there was um a mother at Family Day,
27:59
the mother of a resident who,
28:00
who sort of got everyone's attention and I just,
28:05
I just wanted to do right by my kid and this is probably all my fault and um I'm a bad mother.
28:13
So it's like,
28:14
hey,
28:15
you want to do some work,
28:16
is that OK with,
28:17
with your kid who's the resident?
28:19
Yeah.
28:21
So actually looking at the um having the,
28:25
the mother play her parents and say the and reverse roles with them so that the auxiliaries know how to play the role and say the,
28:35
the father might have been active in alcoholism or workaholism or there was a um a chronic depression or immigration issues or holocaust survivor issues,
28:45
whatever it is.
28:46
And then the mother of the mother,
28:49
you know,
28:49
the the grandmother who's plan is,
28:51
is presented as,
28:53
uh,
28:54
well,
28:54
let's just pray about it.
28:56
Maybe,
28:56
I mean,
28:56
that's just an example or,
28:58
or let's just not tell anyone outside the family what's going on with dad and don't trust anyone and,
29:05
and,
29:05
and don't have your feelings because um,
29:08
dad's feelings take up all the room when he gets angry.
29:12
There's no space for anyone else to have any problems and you don't want to set him off.
29:16
So,
29:17
so the actual mother who's there realizes the messages she got.
29:22
And the mother might say when I have kids,
29:26
they were gonna have what I didn't have.
29:28
It's gonna be so corrective for me.
29:30
I'm gonna be a good mother and my kids are gonna be happy.
29:34
So the resident with doubling or with help might say I have this perfectionism.
29:41
If I'm not perfect,
29:44
I feel horrible about myself or I feel like I shouldn't ask for help.
29:48
I should just figure things out myself and not struggle.
29:52
And my my eating disorder came in as a way to,
29:57
to stuff my feelings and to be perfect because mom,
30:01
I could tell that you felt successful as a mother.
30:05
If I was happy,
30:06
you only wanted me to be happy.
30:09
I took that literally happy is the only feeling I dared show.
30:14
So of course,
30:15
and then you see the purpose of the eating disorder and but even the mother gets some self compassion because she came by her messages right away from her parents and it's intergenerational.
30:27
So,
30:28
um,
30:29
the,
30:29
the mother might say,
30:31
well,
30:31
I can own my role in this and,
30:33
and not beat myself up.
30:35
I had conditioning and circumstances too,
30:37
but I really want to work together to change things now and,
30:42
and not make it all about me where you can't express your feelings because you're trying to make sure I'm not upset,
30:49
like everyone's so busy,
30:51
trying not to upset everyone else.
30:53
It's like you can have your feelings,
30:54
you can have your,
30:55
everyone can have their feelings.
30:57
You don't have to get rid of yours or anyone else's right.
30:59
So with coaching,
31:01
the mother might say to the resident,
31:04
you don't have to take care of me.
31:07
I it's a joy to be your parent.
31:09
It's a privilege.
31:11
I'll get my own help.
31:13
It's not your job to support me.
31:16
I wanna hear all your feelings and struggles.
31:19
You can come to me with them.
31:21
We're gonna figure this out together.
31:25
And again,
31:25
this is a room full of people resonating,
31:30
deviling,
31:31
relating.
31:32
So,
31:33
so yes,
31:34
uh family issues and family can absolutely be used and frequently are.
31:39
Wow.
31:41
I feel like that would be so transformative.
31:43
No.
31:44
Yeah.
31:44
And what a way to build compassion between family members where you know,
31:50
oh my mom got these messages.
31:52
I better understand her now because of what grandma told her.
31:57
And just really,
31:58
I mean,
31:59
the compassion and the understanding just from that one psycho drama.
32:04
I mean,
32:04
that's amazing.
32:06
It really is.
32:07
I,
32:08
I love psycho drama.
32:09
I love how,
32:11
how effective it can be.
32:13
I had really good trainers and I continue to train,
32:18
you know,
32:18
it's a lifelong um learning and just using the spontaneity and having the utter privilege and honor of witnessing people's growth.
32:31
It's just exciting and I love it and it's,
32:35
it's like,
32:36
you know,
32:36
deeply satisfying.
32:37
And I say this with,
32:38
with all humility,
32:40
you know,
32:40
it's,
32:40
this is this modality,
32:42
spoke to me and to be able to be a conduit,
32:46
you know,
32:47
use it to,
32:48
to help others.
32:49
I,
32:49
I um sincerely relish it and cherish it.
32:54
I'm imagining Nancy that you have seen and,
32:58
or experienced several success stories after using these tools with some of the clients.
33:07
Um I,
33:07
I just feel like I would be deeply affected and changed.
33:12
And so I just,
33:13
you know,
33:13
I have had,
33:14
I have been myself,
33:16
the protagonist and psycho dramas that have been life changing,
33:19
but I would say that it happens.
33:21
But it's a rarity.
33:22
Like for the most part,
33:23
half the people might be bored because they're not looking for the similarities.
33:27
They're thinking about the differences.
33:29
They're like,
33:29
that's not me after the people or have their mind on something else.
33:34
And the protagonist just feel is free to choose like how shallow or how deep they wanna go.
33:40
And so a lot of time,
33:42
most of the time.
33:43
It's just chipping away it,
33:45
it's just one more little piece of work in a lifetime of work,
33:49
therapy,
33:50
recovery.
33:52
But psycho drama can also be used for like positive things like,
33:57
hey,
33:58
I've had a really great holiday dinner and I just want to recreate it to savor how well it went.
34:05
So we're not even,
34:07
we're not even getting into huge pain.
34:09
We're having like a nice scene and that lets people know you better and just developing a sense of gratitude,
34:15
being able to feel joy to light because if you're numbing anger,
34:21
fear,
34:22
sadness,
34:23
then you're numbing every feeling across the board.
34:25
So absolutely,
34:27
we,
34:27
we accept superficial and we accept joy.
34:31
I never thought of that.
34:33
But yeah,
34:34
it could be a psycho drama about something really positive.
34:38
Absolutely.
34:39
And to strengthen those voices and strengthen those beliefs.
34:43
And if no one wants to be the protagonist in a psycho drama,
34:47
there's also something called socio drama where it's just a central theme that might be explored,
34:53
like,
34:53
like people might explore a physical disease.
34:56
So instead of uh your diabetes,
34:59
someone blames an illness.
35:02
Um and it's just themes are explored,
35:05
but with that distance and then they're still sharing and spontaneity.
35:10
So and I also do individual um psycho dramas here at Renfrew,
35:15
which of course we get sick in groups,
35:18
we benefit from healing in groups as well.
35:21
Uh So it's not the same time and contribution of having others be spontaneous and add to the drama by improvising,
35:30
elaborating.
35:31
But with the individuals,
35:32
even you talking to an empty chair or just role reversing with who you want to address in one of my individual consultations,
35:40
then it just is more palpable sometimes than when we,
35:44
when we just talk,
35:45
you know,
35:46
it's the the trauma that the body remembers what the mind forgets and it's all um you know,
35:53
done,
35:53
done safely with containment,
35:56
right?
35:57
There's so much flexibility in how vulnerable you want to be.
36:03
I mean,
36:03
it just,
36:04
it you can really adjust to make sure the protagonist feels comfortable and the whole group feels comfortable essentially.
36:10
So a lot of safety within,
36:12
within the process,
36:14
Nancy,
36:15
I'm curious.
36:16
Um So we've talked about eating disorders specifically.
36:19
That's really,
36:20
you know,
36:20
we talk a lot about that with this podcast.
36:22
But I'm curious,
36:23
can anyone benefit from doing a psycho drama?
36:27
Does it have to be somebody with an eating disorder or substance use in their background?
36:32
Anyone can benefit from it?
36:34
Uh Again,
36:35
I do work in addictions,
36:37
drug and alcohol,
36:38
sex addiction.
36:39
Um But sure anyone can benefit from it because all humans can benefit from more self acceptance,
36:47
um awareness and acceptance and of,
36:51
of their emotions and a more skillful relationship with feelings.
36:55
Um Clarifying what one's values are and um what it would look like to have your values aligned with your actions more because we all do things that like you know,
37:08
what am I doing?
37:10
Uh But there's not no one who can't benefit from practicing better relationships,
37:16
role reversing with someone to see their point of view and get greater,
37:21
understand,
37:22
greater mutual understanding,
37:23
practicing having a conversation with someone.
37:27
It also,
37:28
um,
37:28
is very effective with,
37:30
with grief.
37:31
Um,
37:32
because the person doesn't actually have to be there.
37:35
Whether they're not available or whether they're deceased,
37:38
you can run through your system through your physical system,
37:42
you can run through the conversation,
37:45
the feelings like you can do the mourning or the grieving or the affirming on your end,
37:52
even when it's someone else playing the role of the um the one you're grieving.
37:58
So psycho drama can be really helpful with that and there's no one who hasn't grieved something,
38:03
whether it's a,
38:04
a pet,
38:05
a person,
38:06
a realization about their childhood not being as secure as they'd like.
38:11
Um grieving health.
38:13
As I said,
38:14
there's so many different kinds of losses and being able to process and unpack your feelings.
38:19
So as long as you're human,
38:21
you buy probably have feelings,
38:22
you probably have relationships.
38:24
Psycho trauma can help.
38:26
But with the the disorders,
38:28
eating disorders,
38:29
addictions,
38:30
there's very much uh this behavior or this substance was filling a void,
38:37
was numbing pain.
38:40
And so,
38:41
um really practicing tolerating the void,
38:46
tolerating the pain and finding other things to do because of the consequences of your uh addictions,
38:56
not being aligned with your values.
38:58
Actually,
38:59
people generally get into treatment when the,
39:03
um,
39:03
outside world is telling them.
39:05
You know,
39:05
this isn't cool because of the nature of denial.
39:08
And at first being a solution,
39:10
no one generally just wakes up and says I have a problem.
39:13
It's a process.
39:15
Everyone who gets here is a warrior is brave.
39:20
You know,
39:20
just the willingness to look at oneself is as a feat that a lot of people because of their background are so threatened or anxious,
39:29
you know,
39:29
that they're not,
39:31
they don't have the courage to be vulnerable.
39:34
So,
39:34
yeah,
39:34
it's,
39:35
it's a wonderful tool for anyone.
39:38
Nancy.
39:39
When I,
39:39
when I was a therapist um at the residential site,
39:43
I would sometimes suggest to my clients,
39:47
why don't you try to be a protagonist in psycho drama?
39:51
And almost always their first reaction was like,
39:54
no way I can't be the center of attention.
39:57
It's too much,
39:59
but I really like watching them and sometimes I get up and double and,
40:03
and so I'm just curious,
40:04
like,
40:04
what guidance would you have for someone who there's a part of them that knows they would really benefit but they're scared.
40:13
Well,
40:13
you're providing a service to the group by um letting yourself be known and expressing some of your issues.
40:21
It really is a gift to people because then they know that they're not alone and I would reassure them that there is,
40:29
you can't do it wrong.
40:31
There,
40:31
there's no grading or grade system whatever happens is fine.
40:35
And again,
40:36
you're in charge.
40:37
Anything I suggest take alter decline,
40:42
speak up,
40:42
whatever comes to you as we go,
40:44
we're co creating spontaneously.
40:46
If you just thought of this,
40:47
if you don't want that,
40:48
if you want this,
40:49
you know,
40:50
speak up,
40:50
we're doing it together and you're in a,
40:53
a safe supportive place and you're in charge.
40:56
If there's something you don't want to deal with right now,
40:59
I might ask why and explore what the resistances are in case it's something that we can address or go around.
41:06
But no is a complete answer.
41:09
Uh You know,
41:10
the old expression,
41:11
yes.
41:12
Doesn't mean anything if you can't say no.
41:14
So you're in charge.
41:16
It's self determination.
41:17
I may have ideas of three ways this could go because like that's my job.
41:22
But I'm bouncing off what you give me at every moment.
41:27
We're in the,
41:27
now we're in the here and now you can't do it wrong.
41:30
Why not take a risk?
41:32
You'll never see these people again.
41:34
Get your earnings worth,
41:35
take a risk,
41:36
right?
41:37
I love that reframe that it's a gift to others.
41:40
I think that could really help people gather the courage to try it and it's so empowering knowing that they have a lot of choice in the matter.
41:51
Absolutely,
41:52
Nancy.
41:53
If someone wanted to learn more about psycho drama or experiential therapies,
41:58
where could they go?
42:00
Could they reach out to you?
42:01
How could they learn more information.
42:03
Well,
42:04
they could certainly reach out to me,
42:06
but there's a lot of sources of information if you're in or around media,
42:12
Pennsylvania,
42:13
there's a monthly training workshop that anyone can come to from 3 to 5,
42:18
the fourth Saturday of every month.
42:20
That's the Delaware Valley Psycho Drama collective.
42:24
So if you,
42:25
if you Google Del Val psycho drama dot com,
42:29
you'd get the Delaware Valley Psychodrama Collective.
42:32
If again,
42:32
you're sort of in the media Philadelphia area,
42:36
there is also the A S GP GP dot org.
42:40
That's the American Society of Group Psychotherapy and Psycho Drama and the A S GP P website will have all the local workshops,
42:49
trainings,
42:50
the national conferences,
42:52
the online trainings and also the psycho drama certification dot org.
43:00
There's three websites I'm giving you everything can be done on the computer.
43:04
But psychodrama certification dot org is the American Board of Examiners and psychodrama,
43:10
societally and group psychotherapy.
43:12
And you can find certified trainers on the practitioner level.
43:17
You can find people certified as trainers,
43:20
educators and practitioners by geographical location and see their groups and the workshops and the therapy that they all offer.
43:29
So it's a vibrant growing community and it's,
43:33
it,
43:33
it's exciting.
43:34
Actually,
43:35
I really like my people,
43:37
you know,
43:39
my psycho drama people.
43:41
So you would be so welcome to come to join.
43:45
It's inclusive.
43:46
We would welcome you no matter who or what or where you are from and training is available.
43:52
It's,
43:53
it it's not an easy thing.
43:55
I mean,
43:56
there is group dynamics role theory,
43:59
uh you know,
44:03
societal once and thinks they can do it.
44:07
Like,
44:07
like you may be a competent therapist.
44:09
But um there's a,
44:11
there's a lot of training hours and essay tests and on-site observations to become a certified psycho dramatist.
44:19
So,
44:20
um yeah,
44:20
so we don't,
44:21
we don't encourage people to just give the whole thing a try without training.
44:25
But you would be very welcome to come.
44:28
Even if you didn't want to go through the whole training and you just wanted to come to some workshops,
44:32
please do because any therapist certainly could do like a gestalt type role reversal or empty chair.
44:39
It's like the bigger piece,
44:41
the more training you have,
44:42
the easier it looks,
44:44
but it's not really nilly.
44:46
Well,
44:46
you make it look so easy,
44:48
Nanny.
44:48
Yes.
44:49
You really years of experience.
44:52
Well,
44:52
it shows it shows and good and good teachers.
44:56
I've had good teachers myself.
44:58
Yes.
44:59
Well,
45:00
thank you so much,
45:01
Nancy.
45:01
This has been so incredible to learn more about this um style of therapy,
45:06
more about you.
45:07
Um And I just really appreciate Sam and I both really appreciate you being on here with us today.
45:13
Well,
45:13
thank you for having me and anyone can ask me any questions they want.
45:17
Definitely.
45:18
Yeah.
45:18
And so that thank you to our listeners of all Bodies,
45:23
All Foods.
45:23
Thank you to being here with us today.
45:25
Please feel free.
45:26
If you do have questions for Nancy,
45:29
you can shoot us an email um at podcast at renfrew center dot com and we can get those to Nancy Nancy.
45:35
We will likely um put up those um websites that you also gave us as well.
45:40
So,
45:41
and then again to our listeners,
45:43
thank you so much.
45:44
Um We really appreciate and hope you enjoyed um today's episode talking about psycho drama with Nancy Willis.
45:52
If you like today's episode,
45:53
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45:56
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45:59
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46:01
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46:02
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46:05
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46:08
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46:09
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46:10
all of that jazz,
46:11
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46:14
And lastly,
46:15
if you have any questions about today's episode or you would like us to talk about a specific topic,
46:21
please feel free to reach out to us.
46:23
Um We would love to connect with you.
46:25
Our email is podcast at renfrew center dot com.
46:29
Thank you all so much.
46:30
Thank you again,
46:31
Nancy and thank you to our listeners.
46:36
Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies All Foods presented by the Renfrew Center for eating disorders.
46:43
We're looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations