Latest / Beyond Fulfillment Podcast / The CEO Who Lost Everything and Found Something Better with Yosi Amram

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The CEO Who Lost Everything and Found Something Better with Yosi Amram · Beyond Fulfillment Podcast

• 0:00
  Foreign.
• 0:05
  Yosi Amram, welcome to Beyond Fulfillment.
• 0:09
  Thank you, Dave.
• 0:10
  Thank you, Dave.
• 0:10
  I'm excited and look forward for some fulfillment in here with you.
• 0:16
  Yes, sir, we're looking forward to it as well.
• 0:19
  So Yosi, we're just talking off camera about your crazy journey as an entrepreneur up until where you got to now.
• 0:29
  So just to set the stage for our listeners, can you talk about your backstory and how you became an entrepreneur?
• 0:35
  Sure, sure.
• 0:36
  I'm glad you said as we talked about that it was a crazy story as opposed to me being crazy, although that's debatable.
• 0:44
  So, yeah, I started.
• 0:45
  I grew up in Israel, war torn part of the world.
• 0:49
  And like all young men, I was drafted into the military, then a three year mandatory service.
• 0:56
  Fortunately it was peaceful time, unlike the craziness going there now.
• 1:01
  But despite my pacifistic leanings and etc.
• 1:07
  I found myself having the fastest promotion record in the history of my regimen, even though I was kind of a science and math nerd.
• 1:17
  But while I excelled at the military, the command and control really chafed at my soul.
• 1:22
  So I resolved to someday to build an organization based on more humanistic values that support the unique growth of each individual in a community, in a team spirit environment.
• 1:33
  And that led me to come to the us, Study engineering, business and ultimately become a tech entrepreneur.
• 1:40
  And you know, I had the good fortune of building this company and taking it public.
• 1:49
  And then one day as I was trying to relax and get a full body massage while lying on the table, something happened.
• 2:00
  And no, it's not what you're thinking, But I was knocked into a spiritual awakening experience that many meditators spend years on.
• 2:15
  And all of a sudden I realized our interconnectedness and how everything is part of the oneness that we are.
• 2:23
  But that really blew a fuse in my mind and threw me into what, a very ungrounded state, you might call it a manic state.
• 2:34
  And I wanted to drive my company faster than ever.
• 2:38
  And my board was like, hey, why don't you take a three week vacation and chill out?
• 2:43
  And I was like, no way.
• 2:45
  And they said, okay, well we're putting you on a three month voluntary leave of absence.
• 2:50
  Nothing voluntary about it.
• 2:52
  Any.
• 2:53
  Long story short, I was pushed out of the company that I started.
• 2:56
  It was a big loss and a trauma because the company was my baby.
• 3:02
  But long story short, that led me to ask deep questions about was this experience real?
• 3:08
  Was it delusional?
• 3:10
  Why was I so attached to the company?
• 3:13
  And that ultimately led me to go back to school and get a PhD in psychology where I heard of the concept spiritual intelligence, and I was very aware of emotional intelligence.
• 3:25
  So I was like, is there a parallel here?
• 3:27
  So I did my doctoral research defining what spiritual intelligence is and how to measure it, and showed that leaders that have greater spiritual intelligence lead teams with greater morale, higher commitment, lower turnover in a way that complements emotional
• 3:47
  intelligence.
• 3:48
  And since then, it's been shown that such leaders also produce better financial results.
• 3:53
  And there are many other benefits to spiritual intelligence in terms of mental health, satisfaction with life, resilience, individual productivity, organizational productivity.
• 4:06
  And these days I'm researching and doing work with couples and how these same qualities of spiritual intelligence that support us as being great leaders, like integrity and humility and compassion and gratitude and presence, also make us better partners
• 4:23
  at home.
• 4:25
  So that's a long story.
• 4:27
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• 5:10
  I've already proven I'm crazy, so.
• 5:14
  Okay, well, no, I appreciate the context there and there's a lot to unpack, so let's just go back.
• 5:20
  Let's go back.
• 5:22
  So you start this company.
• 5:24
  You know, you come to the US after growing up in Israel and doing your military service.
• 5:30
  Interestingly, you're, you're consider yourself pacifistic, but yet fastest promotion record in your regiment.
• 5:37
  You come, you build this company and take it public.
• 5:40
  And then the one day where you're, you're trying to relax, get a massage, you have this awakening, but then you call it like a manic state to where like just, just talk more about that.
• 5:50
  You just, it sounds like you had this compulsion to just change a lot of things and drive the company forward faster and really upset the status quo.
• 6:00
  And the board was not having it.
• 6:03
  Yeah, well, basically, you know, my mind got open and I was getting these downloads of the future of the Internet and where it was going.
• 6:15
  And I had all these insights and this open state about where the industry was going, all of which in hindsight kind of became true.
• 6:24
  But I became obsessed to wanting my company to be the company to to realize those visions.
• 6:31
  So this was actually before Google and before Facebook and before a lot of the things that are happening now.
• 6:38
  And AI and personal agents, we were using personal agents in that company to help people call the news and get a personal newspaper every day.
• 6:48
  Dave, you would get it originally on fax machine.
• 6:51
  Anyway, we were in many ways ahead of our time, and I saw the future and I was driving hard, but I was.
• 6:59
  Became ungrounded with this opening and this vision and being obsessed.
• 7:03
  And I pushed my team and the board faster than we could do all these projects, and they were like, oh, you got to slow down.
• 7:11
  But I was so enamored with this vision and wanting to get there first.
• 7:18
  That made me not very spiritually intelligent, might I say, because this is the difference between.
• 7:26
  You can have an insight and understand our interconnectedness, but then you have to integrate and embody it.
• 7:33
  And my vehicle, my.
• 7:34
  My consciousness, my body, my psyche couldn't contain that much energy.
• 7:40
  So I became very ungrounded.
• 7:43
  And.
• 7:45
  Okay, wow.
• 7:47
  So when that happens, right, you have this experience, and like you said, you're.
• 7:53
  You're receiving all these insights and these downloads in this energy and too much to contain.
• 7:58
  You became ungrounded.
• 7:59
  Unhinged, I guess we could say, right?
• 8:01
  Unhinged.
• 8:02
  Okay.
• 8:03
  Yeah.
• 8:03
  And when that.
• 8:05
  When you get that, when you're put on that voluntary leave and you realize, like, oh, I've literally just been pushed out of the comp.
• 8:11
  My baby, the company I started.
• 8:14
  Right.
• 8:14
  What was.
• 8:14
  What was that like?
• 8:18
  Well, what was that like?
• 8:20
  It was sad.
• 8:21
  And it also made me angry.
• 8:23
  I mean, I was like, you guys can't do that.
• 8:25
  My vision is right.
• 8:26
  It's my baby, you know, I brought you in, you know, and now this.
• 8:31
  So it was sad.
• 8:34
  It was also humiliating.
• 8:35
  And there's a lot of shame because there are headline stories in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times that I was pushed out of the company, that I was unstable.
• 8:45
  There were rumors, and then people started.
• 8:47
  Stopped returning my calls and emails.
• 8:50
  So I was kind of canceled.
• 8:52
  I went from the top of echelon of hot Silicon Valley Company CEOs, invited into all the exclusive gatherings of CEOs, etc.
• 9:02
  All of a sudden, you know, people weren't talking to me, so it was embarrassing.
• 9:06
  It's shameful.
• 9:07
  I was sad, I was angry, I was fighting.
• 9:11
  I was trying to fight the board and call a special meeting of the shareholders because, you know, when it was announced I was on a leave of absence, the stock dropped, you know, cut in half almost 37% on
• 9:27
  the one day.
• 9:28
  So obviously the Wall street thought that I was the driver and it was my baby and my vision.
• 9:33
  I was the chairman and CEO, founder.
• 9:36
  So I was trying to fight the board, but, you know, it's very painful.
• 9:42
  Okay, and then how, how long did it take you to.
• 9:45
  To really recover from that before you could go on to what, what you did next?
• 9:51
  Boy, I think I was in a emotional turmoil and unsettled probably for at least six, nine months.
• 9:59
  And then it took me another six months to just start to raise my head and network again.
• 10:06
  And I did an EIR entrepreneur in residence with another venture firm, and I started to evaluate other ideas.
• 10:15
  And that led me to do my second company with another technical founder, which was in a different space, was Internet security and digital signatures and encryption and that kind of thing.
• 10:28
  So, you know, it ended up being over a year to a year and a half before I landed and started this other thing where I was CEO and co founder, founder of the second company.
• 10:39
  But it was kind of like six to nine months of just, you know, unstable, wobbly, then just kind of, okay, accepting the reality.
• 10:51
  And, you know, so you move, you know, through these stages of anger and bargaining and whatever till you move to acceptance.
• 11:02
  And anytime you lose somebody in the grief process, okay, then I had to start moving on.
• 11:10
  So now looking back on it now after all these years, what would you say is the most important thing you learned from that experience?
• 11:19
  Boy.
• 11:21
  Well, I think it's important to.
• 11:23
  To center and ground ourselves.
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  And it's important to have people that you trust, that you.
• 11:31
  That know you well, that you can turn to in, in these kind.
• 11:36
  When.
• 11:36
  When these crises happen so that you can, they can calibrate you.
• 11:40
  They.
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  They know you, they can.
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  That you trust, they trust you.
• 11:45
  I think those would be the two things.
• 11:49
  Okay.
• 11:50
  All right.
• 11:50
  And then ultimately, this journey led you to, like you said, going back to get, I guess, a doctorate.
• 11:59
  And you came across, or you.
• 12:03
  You became aware of this concept of spiritual intelligence and really went deep in the study of that.
• 12:08
  So can you just talk?
• 12:09
  What, what exactly is spiritual intelligence?
• 12:13
  Okay, that's a great question.
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  So by analogy, many people know of emotional intelligence.
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  Emotional intelligence is the ability to draw on emotional resources and information and use that to help our daily life manage our emotions and others.
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  So by analogy, spiritual intelligence is the ability to draw on and embody spiritual resources and qualities in daily life.
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  So what are those?
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  These are things like purpose, service, trust, gratitude, compassion, presence, integrity, humility, and so on.
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  These are the qualities that throughout all the world's traditions for thousands of years have been celebrated as virtue.
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  So in my doctoral research, I interviewed 71 teachers across all the world's traditions, from Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, shamanism, Taoism and so on.
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  And they all spoke of these same qualities.
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  So from that I developed this framework where There are these five domains and 22 qualities, and these I just mentioned some of them.
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  And from there I developed the first academically validated measure, which has since been translated into over a half dozen languages.
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  And this research now has over a thousand references.
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  And many people have shown that spiritual intelligence has many positive outcomes in a variety of situations, like better satisfaction, quality of life, resilience, mental health, individual productivity, group productivity.
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  Banks that have higher spiritual intelligence among their employees produce better return on assets.
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  Leaders that have better spiritual intelligence produce better financial results for their business unit.
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  So over the years since I finished my doctoral research over 15, almost 20 years ago, the field has grown a lot.
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  And there's a lot that has been done by other researchers across the world, in different countries and different languages, in English in the US everywhere.
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  So it's quite exciting to see that.
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  But it may take a while for it to get into the mainstream.
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  Just like emotional intelligence took time to get in the mainstream because we used to think that emotion, intelligence and reason are in opposition.
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  Likewise, now we have a dichotomy.
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  The spiritual is kind of woo, woo, and then we have the practical.
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  So when people hear the word spiritual, some people have kind of an allergic reaction.
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  They associate it with religion, which it's really not.
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  And you don't even have to be spiritual to be spiritually intelligent.
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  It's kind of like the difference between being emotional and being emotionally intelligent.
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  If I say, Dave, do you know people in your life that are emotional?
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  That might not be the most compliment.
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  You know, they might be tearing up at every puppy commercial and they're very prone to drama.
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  But if someone is emotionally intelligent, that's a whole different thing.
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  Now someone could be spiritual, like they have a belief system.
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  They believe in higher power or God or reincarnation of the soul, whatever their belief system.
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  Or they can have a spiritual experience.
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  You know, you meditate and you enter samadhi or whatever, oneness.
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  But you know, spiritual intelligence is not belief, it's not experience is how you embody these qualities in daily life.
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  And these qualities have been talked about for thousands of years by many traditions and, and now in modern research, the field of positive psychology that developed over the last 30 years with people like Marty Seligman, he has 24
• 16:07
  qualities called character, strength, inventory and values in action.
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  And over half of these qualities are one to one map with spiritual intelligence, like gratitude and humility and transcendence and purpose and so on.
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  Service.
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  So there's a convergence between this research I and other people have done in spiritual intelligence and positive psychology.
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  And there's a third field of leadership development that looks at what qualities make for great leaders.
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  And the same things.
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  Now, servant leadership, centered leaders.
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  And Bain and Company, one of the top management consulting companies in the world, studied 2,000 companies.
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  They found that inspired employees are twice as productive than people that just go about doing their jobs.
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  And then they looked at what are the qualities that get leaders to be inspiring.
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  They identified 33 qualities.
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  And again, over half of those map directly with the spiritual intelligence.
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  Spiritual intelligent leadership.
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  So I'm saying there's a converging evidence from different fields of study, from different researchers that say, yeah, these are the qualities we all want to embody and the people we like to be around, people that live a life
• 17:32
  of purpose and service, and they're humble and they have integrity and they're compassionate and they're present and they're mindful and they're intentional.
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  These are the qualities of a good life.
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  And it helps us individually and it helps us collectively and societally.
• 17:52
  Okay, well, yeah, clearly you're very passionate about this field.
• 17:56
  You just, you're just oozing excitement over this.
• 17:58
  So when you, because again, if this, it sounds like a lot of this study you've even pioneered from some of the early days, and to see it, like you say, be recognized by Bain Co.
• 18:11
  And, and all these other top, you know, top institutions.
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  Like what, what's that like?
• 18:18
  Well, it's exciting.
• 18:19
  It's, it's gratifying, it's fulfilling.
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  If I were to use, you know, the word in, in your podcast.
• 18:28
  And.
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  But yeah, it's deeply nourishing.
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  And then, and there's an inner alignment, like, okay, then my life has deep meaning.
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  I'm doing the work that I'm meant to do and it's having an impact.
• 18:41
  And then my life makes sense.
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  You know, the work I'm doing now really threads through all of my life.
• 18:48
  And, you know, I couldn't make sense of it looking forward, but looking back, my beginning of interest in the, in the leadership from the military and then studying engineering at MIT and then my MBA at Harvard and all
• 19:03
  those things, if I'm just dropping things that, you know, you could look at them as big things on themselves, but really they're all building blocks that enabled me to be here to do this work, to bring in the
• 19:16
  scientific mindset that I have and also the psychological mindset and the spiritual and the leadership.
• 19:24
  And then all of that kind of comes together for me and bringing it together so to contribute to others, to my clients, to the world at large, so I can see, see impact.
• 19:38
  So it's just very fulfilling to feel that I'm actualizing my potential and I'm drawing on all my skills and all my talents and all of my life's experiences that are making me be able to contribute the way I
• 19:54
  am in my unique way.
• 19:56
  And each of us have our unique skills, gifts, talents, and superpowers that life has given us.
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  And that's kind of like our gift that life gives us.
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  And when you have a friend and you give him a birthday gift and it's all wrapped up, you want to know that they didn't just put it in the closet.
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  They open it and unpack it and use it.
• 20:19
  So life basically asks each of us who gives us our gift and wants us to unpack that gift and use those skills and talents to contribute to life, to other people around us.
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  And that makes us feel fulfilled, fulfilled and actualized.
• 20:35
  And that's.
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  That's the way I'm doing it.
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  That's coming through me.
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  And everybody's got their unique sense of purpose and calling.
• 20:47
  Okay.
• 20:48
  When, when you live that, it's very fulfilling and very exciting, very energizing.
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  And then, then life is very passionate and, and engaging.
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  So as you said, I'm oozing.
• 21:03
  Yeah.
• 21:04
  No, and I, I.
• 21:05
  Yeah, you're absolutely oozing excitement and passion for this work you're doing.
• 21:09
  And I love that analogy, too.
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  I've never heard it put that way, but it makes so much sense, too, in terms of when you give someone a gift, you want to see them open it up and actually use it.
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  That brings you joy.
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  And when life gives you gifts, Right.
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  Just even if your rational mind gets in the way.
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  Right.
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  Ultimately, what's.
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  You want to use the gifts that you've been given to the best of your ability.
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  And again, that's going to, you know, life's going to be happy and smile upon you when you do.
• 21:36
  So.
• 21:37
  Am I saying that right?
• 21:38
  Yeah, yeah, you're saying, great.
• 21:40
  It's very fulfilling, very exciting.
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  And then, you know, you love your life, you love what you're doing, and you're radiating joy instead of oozing, you know, live in love and radiate joy and, and feel Actualized and contribute to people around you.
• 22:01
  And that's the most fulfilling thing.
• 22:05
  All right, so now a couple other things.
• 22:07
  So you've coached over 100 CEOs.
• 22:10
  How did you get into doing that work?
• 22:13
  Well, I basically was in their role, you know, and you asked me what, what are the thing that I, in hindsight I learned and I was kind of alluding to that if I had a good coach at that
• 22:27
  time that I trusted and then knew me, maybe they would have helped ground me.
• 22:32
  So anyway, but the point is, I've lived through the ups and downs of being a Silicon Valley entrepreneur CEO, raising tens of millions of dollars and working with the top venture capitalists, taking companies public, selling them, buying them.
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  So I, you know, it's a very lonely job to be the CEO of a company going through a lot of change with a lot of pressure, raising money from vent venture capitalists, building an organization, competitive markets, changing technology.
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  So I, I know the territory of what these people are going through, so that makes me be able to relate and give them good advice.
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  And so I'm bringing in that domain expertise of knowing the territory of the life they're dealing with.
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  And then I'm bringing in the spiritually intelligent leadership lens and spiritual intelligence and the psychological lens and, and all of that.
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  So I think through my network of venture capitalists, friends, other entrepreneurs, people come to me and say, hey, you know, can, can you help me in building my, my company?
• 23:38
  First time entrepreneurs or even successful entrepreneurs, they've done it once, twice, made, made a lot of money.
• 23:45
  They still, we all need someone that we could trust that we can confide in.
• 23:51
  As a CEO, you're always, it's a very lonely job.
• 23:55
  You know, you have a board that's supposed to help you, but they're also your investors.
• 23:59
  They also can hire and fire you, they have a fiduciary duty, they determine your compensation package, etc.
• 24:07
  So you can't be completely transparent and vulnerable with them.
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  And then same with your team, they're selling you and they're looking up to you.
• 24:19
  Now it's important to have some vulnerability with each of them, but you're not going to be completely open.
• 24:24
  So you know, I think people feel like they can open up with me and I can coach them and help them.
• 24:32
  And so, you know, through my network, my referral and other people refer their friend entrepreneurs, CEOs to me.
• 24:42
  And that's how it works.
• 24:44
  Okay, all right.
• 24:45
  And some listeners might be surprised to hear that, particularly in terms of, you know, maybe if they're not, you know, not in that role or not familiar with that type of lifestyle.
• 24:57
  But talk about why.
• 24:58
  I mean, like you said, the board, right, they're there, they're supposed to support you, but ultimately they have, they can hire and fire you, and they have their own agenda.
• 25:06
  Your team, right, is counting on you.
• 25:08
  But you, you have to be strong.
• 25:09
  You can't be vulnerable in front of your team.
• 25:12
  I mean, why, why else is that position so lonely?
• 25:16
  Why?
• 25:17
  Because there's a lot on your shoulder.
• 25:19
  You're the guy making the hard decisions.
• 25:22
  And yeah, there's nobody, I mean, everybody else on the team has peers.
• 25:29
  So if you're the VP engineering, you have the VP of operation as your peer, VP sales and the VP marketing, etc.
• 25:37
  They're kind of as a team.
• 25:39
  There are different board members on the board.
• 25:41
  They could talk to each other, call, hey, I'm wondering about this, that and the other.
• 25:45
  But you don't have any peers.
• 25:47
  Now, I do want to say that the same issues, you know, I'm talking about it with CEOs, and it's maybe very kind of mystical, mystified some elite group of people of Silicon Valley CEOs, but the same issues happen
• 26:02
  at every level of leadership when you, when you are a leader of a business unit or a department or whatever.
• 26:12
  So the same principles of having a sense of purpose or shared values on the team and being a good listener as a leader, and people feeling your care and your compassion and not being about your ego.
• 26:32
  You share credit, you celebrate others and all these qualities of leadership and integrity that you trust.
• 26:39
  People walking the talk, they set a good example.
• 26:43
  That's true at all levels, not just for the CEO.
• 26:47
  So, you know, that's why my book is been a bestseller.
• 26:51
  And other people, it's not aimed just the CEOs, lots of leaders and aspiring leaders find a lot of benefit in reading the book and doing the exercises and applying it at whatever level.
• 27:05
  And in fact, all of us at some level are leaders in our communities, in our neighborhood, in our families.
• 27:12
  So I think the principles are very broad.
• 27:15
  Okay, great segue into your book.
• 27:19
  What's the book called?
• 27:21
  The book is called Spiritually Intelligent Leadership.
• 27:27
  How to Inspire by Being Inspired.
• 27:30
  Okay.
• 27:32
  Yeah.
• 27:32
  And what made you write the book?
• 27:37
  Well, I'm passionate about these ideas and topic and I wanted to share them broadly.
• 27:43
  It seems like we live in a critical time in the world.
• 27:48
  You know, our human iq, our cognitive intelligence landed us on the moon.
• 27:53
  Split the atom, deciphered the genome, now we have AI.
• 27:57
  We've developed emotional intelligence.
• 28:00
  So we learn how to monitor and understand our emotions.
• 28:03
  But still the world feels ever more chaotic.
• 28:06
  I mean, you know, the mental health difficulties, anxiety, depression, addiction, suicide rates are soaring.
• 28:16
  You know, at the global level, there's political polarization, wars, environmental disaster.
• 28:23
  So the question is, how do we as a species, as humanity, what's the missing link here to move us forward?
• 28:32
  And we have to understand our interconnectedness and we have to understand some of these principles of spiritual intelligent leadership.
• 28:39
  I think for us as a collective to move forward and that's at many levels, at the corporate level and nonprofits and as well as broader societal level.
• 28:53
  So I feel that this is an important missing piece in what's happening in the world as we move forward.
• 29:02
  And it's gotten ever more clear.
• 29:05
  It wasn't so clear when I started writing the book.
• 29:08
  It took me two, three years to write it and it got published two and a half years ago.
• 29:14
  So five years ago wasn't as crazy as it is now.
• 29:18
  But it's only good feel like boy, we, we need, we need to some somehow shift our thinking and move beyond us and them mindset and all the problems that we're dealing with.
• 29:33
  Okay, well said.
• 29:35
  All right.
• 29:35
  And Yossi, last question.
• 29:37
  So when you look back at your whole journey, how you know, you, you came here, became an entrepreneur, had radical success, then had your, your unhinged moment, got pushed out of your own company, rebuilt yourself and then you
• 29:51
  came, came to know this field of spiritual intelligence, wrote this book and you've been able to help so many people.
• 29:57
  Looking back on all of it, what's been the best part of it for you?
• 30:02
  Well, the growth, the growth that I've experienced, the ability to reinvent myself, you know, from being an engineering to be a business person, to being a leader, to being an entrepreneur, to being a psychologist, to being a coach,
• 30:17
  to being a.
• 30:18
  I've had many hats and I just continually have grown and reinvented myself.
• 30:27
  And so that's one big piece.
• 30:29
  And then the other big piece would be the human relations and the bonds I've created with colleagues, friends, you know, clients.
• 30:38
  I mean some of my clients have built billion dollar businesses and I've worked with them, you know, weekly or every other week over eight, 10 years as they've built those companies.
• 30:50
  Sometimes one, sometimes two or three companies.
• 30:53
  So the depth of that relationship and then seeing them grow and evolve and being part of that is deeply fulfilling.
• 31:02
  So I think it's the growth, the personal growth I've experienced, the depth of the human connections that I have created.
• 31:12
  And yeah, being witness and supporting that growth in others, very meaningful and satisfying.
• 31:20
  Okay, love that.
• 31:21
  And, Yossi, if people want to reach out and learn more about the work you do, potentially work with you or get in touch for any other reason, what's the best way people can find you online?
• 31:32
  Well, my website is yossiamram.net if you can remember how to spell my name.
• 31:41
  Otherwise, I have a nonprofit.
• 31:44
  Might be easier to remember.
• 31:46
  It's awakening.
• 31:47
  Si.
• 31:48
  Si stands for spiritual intelligence.
• 31:50
  So one word.
• 31:51
  Awakeningsi.org and I host free monthly events that focus on one of the qualities of spiritual intelligence that people can join and practice and learn and grow.
• 32:04
  So I think one of those two ways, and my book is certainly another way.
• 32:13
  And the book has my.
• 32:14
  My web address and all of that, so.
• 32:18
  All right, we will link all that in the show.
• 32:19
  Notes for everyone.
• 32:21
  Yossi, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and sharing all this incredible wisdom from your journey with our listeners.
• 32:27
  We greatly appreciate it.
• 32:29
  Thank you.
• 32:30
  Dave.
• 32:30
  It's been.
• 32:30
  It's been fun and exciting and to share all this with you, and I appreciate your interest and the opportunity.
• 32:40
  All right, thank you.