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277. Divorcing an Avoidant Man: Decode His Tactics and Take Back Your Power. · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond the divorce papers and the lawyers, divorcing an avoidant man is extra.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the secrets that left you paranoid, the control moves that stole your voice, the false check-ins that keep you hooked even now.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And today, we're going to show you how to decode what he's really up to and how to flip the script so that his tactics stop running your life.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, love.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorcee.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Today's episode, we're gonna acknowledge the volumes of extra labor that it takes to divorce an avoidant man.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's the splitting the household stuff and the signing the papers and all of that, right?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's really the hidden cost of his behavior long after he's gone.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he still sometimes finds a way to get in a casual text under false pretenses, a sudden wave of nostalgia about the good old days.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like connection, but it's not.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's really just another play in the book of avoidance.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're gonna start by decoding what avoidant behavior really means, what it looks like, how to identify it, because you cannot afford to take him at face value.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: I repeat, you cannot afford to take him at face value.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're gonna show you how to flip the script, how to stop playing by his rules, and instead make choices that protect your peace and give you back your power.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Stay with us to the end because we will give you one question, one line you can carry into any interaction that will change the way you respond to him forever.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ladies, are you dying to know what the question is, what the line is?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I actually am very well we are going to dig into it at the end of the episode.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is our cliffhanger.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's start with though, decoding avoidant behavior so that you know we're all super wicked clear about what it really means when it's happening, right?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because how do we interrupt a cycle if we don't know if we're not realizing the cycle is happening?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be helpful if I listed classic avoidant attachment behaviors?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's sort of long.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: That this is right, you do.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: You love a checklist, a spreadsheet.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is you, you keep this boat afloat with your checklists and your spreadsheets.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank the Lord.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: First, there are distancing strategies.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So silent withdrawal or stonewalling, right?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is where he shuts down, he emotionally or physically leaves the room, the chat, the building, the whatever, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Physical avoidance through things like working late, burying himself in hobbies, disappearing into screens, that kind of thing.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's distancing with secret keeping.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So like selective disclosure to maintain control or mystery.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have control and power tactics.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a hot and cold pattern, intermittent affection.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the intermittent part is really, really important.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Intermittent affection followed by sudden withdrawal, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that is so powerful about intermittent affection is that's how gambling works in a casino, right?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: You go and play the slot machine, and it's that intermittent reward that keeps us coming back.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that intermittent piece is really key.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Bread crumbing, minimal text or gestures just to keep you engaged, but not to actually come close.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Gaslighting, rewriting history, downplaying conflict, denying past agreements, um, hyperindependence, overemphasizing his own self-sufficiency.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need anyone.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, then we have emotional avoidance strategies.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So minimizing feelings, like dismissing your emotions as overreactions, deflecting or using humor as a shield, joking just to bypass intimacy, right?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like just as maybe you could actually get somewhere.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a joke to create emotional distance.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um task orientation, so like focusing on logistics, money, kids, chores, separation of property, whatever, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of emotional connection, intellectualizing, talking about concepts, not feelings.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have commitment avoidance.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So future faking, like promising change or plans, but never actually following through.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, last minute cancellations, because they need to keep their escape routes open.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Fear of labels.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think we hear a lot of this when women are going back out and dating.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but right, if if a man is having a fear of labels, resisting definition definitions or um like the defining of a relationship or next steps or you know, those kinds of things, like that's an avoidant behavior.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're we're gonna actually dig into this next thing more in our Thursday episode.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do our Thursday episode is gonna be all on this, but I'm just gonna tease this here.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Post-divorce hooks, like specific post-divorce avoidant attachment hooks.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So check-ins under false pretenses, like I just wanted to see how you're doing, or using the kids as an excuse.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then nostalgia bombs, like reminding you of good times to trigger your longing.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, jealousy plays, right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like quickly dating, like how many episodes have we done?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like he moved on too fast and like it gutted me.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So dating quickly, flaunting new partners, but then also still secretly contacting you.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Tiffany is giggling inside.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, uh, all right.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Last one.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Convenience contact, like reaching out only when he feels lonely, stressed during crisis, like when he needs something.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: So these are our most common avoidant attachment behaviors, right?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so let's talk a little bit about what these behaviors really mean because, ladies, you cannot afford to take them at base value.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things we listed today, they're they're avoidance, they're strategies to keep you at arm's length.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about what avoidant behavior really means, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's underneath all of that, there is a deep insecurity and an intolerance, an intolerability around vulnerability or feeling his own feelings.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And listen, I have been there too as a disorganized attacher, right?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've been both an anxious attacher and a like disorganized attachment styles have both anxious and avoidant capacity, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that anytime you have attachment wounds, it it means that there is an insecurity around feeling emotions because attachment wounds come from uh a breakdown in a baby or a child expressing feelings and a parent responding with attunement or an appropriate emotional soothing or comforting, or over time teaching you how to self-soothe, or you know, providing the context and the structure for a baby or a child to learn how to self-soothe and making sure that that infant or child is within their window of tolerance, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're not in the red zone in the engine temperature for too long.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's what leads to attachment wounding, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So underneath disorganized, anxious, and avoidant attachment style stuff is an in a discomfort with feeling our own feelings.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: So for an avoidant, they truly cannot tolerate emotional closeness.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But they fake it a lot, or they do just enough to make us keep us hoping or keep us thinking that it's possible, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So tifferdoodle.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit from an IFS perspective, right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like from a parts perspective, what these avoidance strategies look like.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, when you're working with someone who's avoidant, what is really going on underneath the surface?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Does my question make sense?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, a lot of like there is a part of you that as a young child experienced um a lack of emotional closeness to a parental figure, uh, whether that was like constant like attention-seeking um behavior when you were younger, um, basically just never getting that affirmation from a parent, never feeling like you were good enough.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's always an insecurity around attention and trying to get attention and affection.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like a lot of like withdrawal then at that point.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not gonna try, I'm just gonna shut down.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it happened so much for so long.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even gonna try.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna fake try.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Fake try.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that I can do enough to keep someone engaged but without ever having to feel vulnerable.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like a constant dance, you're never gonna get an avoidant who's not in I I don't want to say like because everybody's capable of change, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But unless an avoidant attacher is intentionally seeking to break their pattern and is intentionally seeking to move the needle, you're never going to see that person cross into vulnerability.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's too threatening.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was an avoidant attacher for a long time in my relationships, and you know, my husband was a avoidant attacher as well, so we were a great pair.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um that sounds spicy.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think she relates to that too to multiple avoidant attachers.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like my parents' avoidant attachers married an avoidant attacher.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was like my comfort zone not really being seen.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think you don't think your dad is an anxious attacher?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think my dad um I think my dad is an anxious attacher too.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's probably disorganized.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he will uh uh avoid conflict, he will avoid anything that rocks the boat.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, like maybe he's disorganized if you really scale back and pull it through, but like he just can't handle, he can't confront her, he can't handle any type of uh yeah.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean my dad was definitely an avoidant, and then my mother in her earlier days was anxious.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now she's secure, but she was anxious.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that tracks because I think for most of us, at least I will say for me, I feel like my daughter really I think this is a common story.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter was the thing that allowed me to break through all of that because I understood the risk of not breaking through my attachment style crap for her.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I got well almost on her behalf.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I pushed past my comfort level to break cycles and patterns because I was not gonna let her experience what I experienced.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so I mean, that checks out that your mom has been able to rehab to extend.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And every single dating relationship that I've had, um, and even in my marriage and relationships, it was almost like there would be this pretty facade, and I could literally tell you exactly what would happen every time.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: It'd be like we'd be in the honeymoon phase, and then all of a sudden, um, I went from being an avoidant to anxious.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So then when I started to fall apart and start showing my worst sides of myself, then I would piece out of the relationship.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because at that point, when you've seen me at my worst, how could somebody possibly love me?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's what I would think.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think I went the opposite.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna show you all of my stuff, and now we have to die together because you can't leave me now.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can I ask a vulnerable question?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually don't think it's your maybe, I don't know.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um is your mom an alcoholic?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't say so.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't say so.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think really facilitated her shift?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like what was the impetus for her to Joy and I want to know?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Joy and I want to know because our mom's never shifted.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's the secret sauce?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: My mom met someone who made her feel secure and seen and treated her with care and respect and put her first.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: She's never had that in her life from any relationship.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this man sees her.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I tell you that my mother is a platinum blonde that gets her nails done, and now to see her riding a tractor wearing pink camo, carrying a pink pistol, like on her 10 acres of land, like that is where her soul.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like my mom, he like he played a big part in like setting her soul free, if that makes sense.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like she's like she's such a different person in this relationship, and this and he's the only person she's ever married.
• 14:14
  unknown: Oh, interesting.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't until she was in her 50s.
• 15:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: What else do our listeners need to hear about what his avoidant behavior really means?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because we do not want to take him at face value, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what else?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: What else do we need to like for me?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like they're gonna deflect.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like oh nothing.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh yeah, like when you were saying that someone was gonna leave, like they were gonna leave in the heat of an argument, it's like, well, is there bonus points if there's a gun involved?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because that was always my cycle, right?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we're gonna take the, we're gonna have an argument, and I'm gonna call you on the carpet.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then because we can't talk about the vulnerable things, not only are you gonna leave the home, you're gonna leave the home with a weapon and you're gonna text me.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, emotional hostage taking, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna make you afraid to hold me accountable.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, gosh, I just think it's terrible when my ex and my current husband, quite frankly, tell me they're gonna change something, and they like they're really just trying to shut me up.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm like, yeah, I understand what you're saying, and I I think you're right, and I own that, and I'm gonna change it.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then never do.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: You you like up the ante over there.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a lot.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and you know, we were both really young, and there was a lot of like things, but neither one of us wanted to talk about the vulnerable shit.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we just never did.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I actually was really good at pretending like I did, but I really just wanted you to talk about your vulnerable shit while I facilitated.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: You go first, you go first.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, I didn't know I was doing that, but that's what I was doing.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I was saving everybody.
• 16:55
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And through like the avoidant behavior, like I feel like he knew what to say to get me to engage with him.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so this happened years and years post-divorce, where I still felt like his protector, and I still felt like I needed to um be responsible for him in a sense, or like I was his only safe space in a lot of ways.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was hard, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when they feel like when an avoidant acts like they need you, or like you're the only one that can provide a thing, or like right, there's gonna be really be a hook there, and I think that a lot of people, not just women, but people experience this especially when there's threats of suicide or some sort of self-harm, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: That can be really, really scary.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it causes people to feel like they have to stay a lot longer.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, right.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's a control for sure.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that is one of the ways they draw us back in, right?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so back to that question we're gonna ask at the very end of the episode that will help break that cycle, but yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's talk about how to flip the script, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: How to stop playing by his rules, how to make choices that protect your peace, and give you your power back.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: For me, initially, I had a rule eventually that I did not want to talk about anything but our daughter.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: So when you text me, it's to check on her and only her, or it's to call and talk with her.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: It is not to ask me how I'm doing, it's not to ask me about my current relationship or joke about things, like it's not any of that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like I had to have really, really hard and fast boundaries around what we were gonna discuss and talk about.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um the first couple years post-divorce for us was pretty tumultuous.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'll explain more in the Thursday episode about just the cycles that I experienced and like the things that would, you know, the the love bombing that happened.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that, you know, there were all these ways in which she would pull me back in.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like when somebody knows you so intimately like that, they know exactly what to say to get you to pull back in, and that's the shitty part.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna dig even deeper though.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I would argue that the thing that I have seen most with women in my entire 25-year career, whatever it is, is that if you truly believed, believed, capital B leved, that you could do better, you would never keep engaging in this cycle.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for women who stay in this cycle with an avoidant man, it's because love, hear me say this, love, that deep down you are afraid you will never be loved more or better, or that you are not worthy of being loved more or better by a different man who will truly cherish you.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It it boils down to your stories you tell yourself about your own worth.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you haven't really gotten to the core of that, you cannot flip the script because you are constantly gonna have self-sabotage out of fear of being alone forever.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I was actually going to say the same thing but differently.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Go for it.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I was going to say what really helped me get out of that was the victim mindset where um when I realized I had control and I had power to change, it was easier for me to say you actually don't get to treat me like that anymore because I am not gonna settle for that anymore.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So like it was very much I took control of my boundaries, I took control of what I was would tolerate.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love you and I want the best for you, but also I would get I'm I'm very uh rooted in my faith and I'd get really like dig into I'm a daughter of a king.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get like that, you know what I mean?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like really yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And like you don't um that and that was new for you, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so scary to go from someone very small who played very small very well.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I grew up very small, like that's where I was comfortable.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when I got to start stepping into, no, that's actually not the marriage I want, that's not the marriage I want my children to see.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is not like we're not doing this anymore.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so um so what I'm hearing you say is when you realize you did not have to be dependent on him and that you could from an empowered place, which you knew was gonna take time, but from an empowered place of I can.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I can be whole, I can be self-sufficient, I can be financially solvent, I can be like I can problem solve.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can I didn't right, I did not know what that looked like because I was a stay-at-home mom when he moved out, so like I didn't really know what, but I did know that that like I'm not a weft of a human, I'm very capable woman.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's really important.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I want to kind of get in here for a moment, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: About what your recollection is.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: But would you say that that came as a result of the intersection of your faith community and the mental health conversations we would have over here being entrenched in like the therapy stuff?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't just one, it wasn't just the other, it was an intersection of both.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm asking this question this way because I think people who try to get well in the church miss the really detailed right.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: You and I would talk though about attachment style.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we were having these in-depth conversations, and we were talking about how essential it was to have addiction recovery and attachment style recovery, and like you weren't getting just surface-level therapeutic guidance or talk therapy, like there was this deep intersection of faith plus mental health pursuit.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the trauma in the church in the pews, there's a book that um Don started a previous episode on, is so real and so heartbreaking.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that my experience and is um I was able because I'm so riding my faith, I literally had an angel on my couch that gave me permission.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's regional though, don't you think?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: You think it's I think my sense would be that it's worse in the Bible Belt than in other parts of the Bible.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Probably for sure.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And because it's like the Baptists, it's the Southern Baptists that are just like taking over and they're awful.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not all of them.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's I'm sure there's lovely Southern.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let me say that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: But also when you go to your when you go to your elders and your your pastors of your church and you have really hard and they just tell you to pray harder, or they just tell you to um, you know, like it's not it's not bad enough, or um it's not often enough for it to be considered abuse.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like argue that those particular leaders are also avoidant attachers.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: 1000%.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I uh just as a Christian, like I believe that that there is so much power to do harm in that role, and that like if you experience that, I'm on behalf of all believers, I'm sorry, because that is bullshit, like it's bullshit.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um what an interesting consideration to think about what faith leaders' attachment styles are and what what recommendations they would give based on that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, we look at God through the lens of how we see our parents, and like we got like this because of you know, our parenting, right, or how we were parented, and I know it's taken me decades to rehab my conception of God as He truly is, and not through the lens of my parents, because that's what we do as humans.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: We project our experience with our caregivers onto God.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So what's it mean that my husband was like agnostic, or like leaning towards atheists?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Parents don't exist.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, parents, maybe that kind of just opened up That kind of just opened up some onion layers over your husband because I know his story, so I know his tracks, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, wow, okay, that actually makes sense a little bit.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: So then, like what I find so interesting too is when I'm starting to work with my clients and they're realizing this about their ex, you know, that they're overstepping, you know.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're asking for a hug, they're giving you that late night text, they're giving you an update on their current relationship, like all this shit, right, that they should not be telling you.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna dig into that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm talking to them about setting boundaries, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then as soon as they set a boundary, I always end up getting a text saying, Well, he flipped out on me.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't receive that well.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: He's ignoring me.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't do that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, of course he is.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because, ladies, let me tell you, exactly, as soon as you set a fucking boundary, please don't expect the people that you are setting a boundary with to have any fucking understanding of what is happening.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, but then again, it comes down to our fear of conflict because of our own attachment wounds.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and and our underlying insecurity that no one else is gonna love because of again, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Our our caregiver experience.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: So this is like a big, deep, wide job to like I'm actually getting sweaty in my pit who's talking about it, right?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: And to the women out there that feel like that's all you deserve from three women that have been in that situation, we would love to tell you how much bullshit that is because all of us are now being loved way better than in our past lives.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it time for the question?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're waiting.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So this question, if you're not driving your car right now, if you're driving your car, you cannot write this down right now.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're not driving your car right now, I want you to physically pause what you're doing.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you're walking, I want you to stop and type it in your phone.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to write this down because there's something that shifts from hearing something to when you transcribe it for yourself.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is this gonna be a good mirror message?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe, maybe.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: We do love a good mirror message around here, right?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think it's something that is valuable to put in your journal and like rewrite it every day for a period of time.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it's such a big, big, big question.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: It makes us really pause and catch it catches our breath for a moment.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, all right, that's a lot of, I know.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let me see if I can deliver.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so the the buildup about this question is about okay, it's a big picture job to rehab your self-esteem, your self-image.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big picture job to rehab your attachment style and to feel worthy of love and belonging.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a big picture job to, you know, spot his avoidant behavior and stop getting hooked by it, right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes you need that one tool that helps you pause in your tracks and make a change in the moment.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because in the moment, you can't just decide to change how you feel about yourself, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: In your own esteem.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's a process.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, this question is designed to be a tool that you can use.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the more often you ask yourself this question, the more you will be able to break the cycle in the moment when he is doing his avoiding crap and you're feeling hooked by it.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I want you to stop and ask yourself this.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Am I about to respond as the woman he trained me to be?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or as the woman I am becoming?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Am I about to respond as the woman he trained me to be, or my parents trained me to be, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's when we say he trained me to be, or as the woman I am becoming.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in that moment, when you frame it like that, there's a push, there's an internal motivation to make a different choice, even when you feel like it's out of reach.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden it becomes slightly more in reach to delay.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then if I were gonna give one more piece of advice in those moments, right, where it feels hard to break the cycle, is reach out to someone, reach out to someone.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't just mean your girlfriend that's gonna like get you all ginned up.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the person that is going to help you in the big picture shift and hold you accountable and support you and speaking to you in the way you need, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Someone who's really going to help you do the bigger picture transformation that you are moving towards.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So call that person or people, whoever they are.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have one, then send us a DM.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, come on now.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: What would you ladies add, if anything?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that that is so powerful.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish I would have had that when I was going through all the times because I knew exactly what he needed in the moment when he was reaching out.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I was conditioned to provide what he needed.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: But as I started to change and shift and set boundaries, he stopped reaching out to me because I wasn't giving him the satisfaction of giving him what he needed in those moments.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I wasn't that place for him anymore.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been a really fun episode to record.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: We've done some attachment style stuff before.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: We've done some deep actually, I think we have a whole attachment series we did.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this one is coming at it from a very different angle and really, really cool to record it from this perspective with the three of us.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like totally different.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't yet joined Cocoon, which is our community of women on the Heartbeat app, if you have not yet joined Cocoon so that you can participate in the weekly magic drop where you just engage in our little weekly challenge.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're just super fun little engagement pieces.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're entered to win a little prize that week.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the prize could be like the coolest book on mental health or boundaries or recovery, or it could be like a fun little healing tool we've talked about on previous Thursday episodes, or it could be a gift card, or it could be like Lord knows what, we've got so many cool little magic drops planned, but they're like fun little glow-ups to assist you in your healing journey.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are not part of the cocoon community in the Heartbeat app, make sure you scroll to the bottom of the show notes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: You are going to find a link down there to get our post divorce roadmap free.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Follow me here.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Post divorce roadmap is our 21 day immersive journaling program.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And right now we are giving that away for free using the code MAGICDrop.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so when you use the code MAGID Drop, To download the Post Divorce Roadmap for free.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's automatically going to bring you into our cocoon community.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: So then you're in the cocoon community, you have the immersive journaling for free, and then you are part of the space where you can do the little magic drop contest, and then boom, Bob's your uncle, and you get free stuff.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you in Cocoon.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Peace.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Peace.com.